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Dr. Drew
Zimmerman Verdict Watch
Aired July 13, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: It`s Saturday night. And we have a live special edition of DR. DREW ON CALL for you. My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt.
We are on verdict watch on the George Zimmerman trial. We will keep you posted the moment we hear anything from that courtroom. The jury moves back towards the courtroom, whatever we are hearing, we will cut immediately to the courtroom and give you up to minute report. Jury is still deliberating. They`ve been at it for more than 15 hours.
Here now is a look at the courthouse live. Let`s go right to that if we can. We will cutting to it if we need to. There it is. It`s actually a lovely photo this time of evening. They are hard at work inside that building. Still deliberating. They had asked out for dinner. And went back to work.
Coming up, we have an exclusive interview with one of the witnesses that stirred controversy in the courtroom. But first up, the jury has got a ton to consider, Jenny. There is that witness we`re going to be calling upon.
JENNY HUTT, HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: Jenny, there is a lot, lot, lot going on here. Are we going to cut to a tape here, ladies and gentlemen? OK, let`s look at the tape and go right to it now.
HUTT: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Good morning, ladies. Welcome back.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Where is one shred of evidence to support the absurdity that they`re trying to have you buy?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Miss Fulton, people asked why I even questioned her, how dare you question the mom of a passed away 17-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: If it was not your son screaming, if it was in fact George Zimmerman, then you would have to accept the probability that it was Trayvon Martin who caused his own death, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: If you get back there and you don`t like some of the witnesses in the case, you don`t like Rachel Jeantel--
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: Do you watch "First 48?" They call the first number that the victim talked to. They didn`t call my number. And they already had got the person, so case closed, I thought. They already had the person who shot him.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I wanted to see the dummy again, I really wanted to see John Guy straddle the dummy.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Let`s talk about the law here in Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HLN host Mike Galanos is at that courthouse. Mike, what`s going on now?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Drew, I`m up here on the fifth floor. And right now, just people are milling around. I look to my left and I see George Zimmerman`s father speaking with security. And Drew, when you talk about emotions, when the jury came back with that question about the clarification of manslaughter, you could see the heaviness on George Zimmerman`s side. He took a deep breath pushed away from the defense table. I looked at his mom, she looked at her son, and they wanted to speak. She wanted to ask that question, what does this mean? His father looked down.
But the person taking it the hardest throughout the later part of the day is Shelly Zimmerman, his wife. She walked out with her mother-in-law arm-in-arm. Came back to the courtroom a little bit later. Looked like she had been emotional. Has had a handkerchief, was getting that caressing back rub from somebody. So, let`s face it. This could be his last night on the outside if things don`t go his way. If there`s a late verdict and it`s guilty, he could be facing anywhere from 10 years to life. So, you can feel the heaviness, the pressure and the emotion on these people.
PINSKY: Mike, we`ll be checking in you throughout the evening. If anything changes, we will get back to you on the air.
Mike, one quick question to you though, is there any sense of speculation about when we might have a verdict?
GALANOS: I mean, OK, when they have dinner and they come back and they work and it`s up to them how long they`re going to work. Most say that they`re closed. This is a determined jury. I saw them up close earlier today. They had their jackets on. They looked good. They look ready. They were anxious and ready to go. But there are couple of jurors that are very detailed, one juror (INAUDIBLE) I mean, she`s carrying around three tablets of paper. She`s got two highlighters, pens, that`s a detailed person who is going to have her say and ask her questions in those deliberations.
PINSKY: Outstanding. Thank you for that update. On the panel tonight with me, Attorney Mark Eiglarsh from SpeakToMark.com. Crystal Wright from ConservativeBlackChick.com. Social commentator Shahrazad Ali, she`s the author of "The Blackwoman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackman." And Brian Copeland, talk show host at KGO radio at San Francisco and author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."
Mark Eiglarsh, I`m going to start with you. Was it a mistake A, for the defense, not to present a manslaughter defense and B, that the prosecution hit manslaughter heavy enough?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Oh, my dear doctor friend, you missed it. Of course the defense presented a manslaughter defense. Do you remember when O`Mara said, whether it`s second-degree murder, whether it`s manslaughter, whether it`s -- and he threw in a whole bunch of other offenses, self defense is the ultimate defense to every crime charged.
If the juries believe that the prosecution has proven either second, which apparently they don`t, or manslaughter, then they just determined whether self defense was proven beyond a reasonable doubt, whether they resisted that defense properly. And apparently, in my opinion they didn`t and that`s what they`re deciding right now.
PINSKY: Crystal, I see you nodding your head. Do you agree?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: I absolutely agree with Mark. I think that the defense over and over again in the closing.
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
Well, we agree sometimes. But the defense over and over again, O`Mara said, look, there`s reasonable doubt. You know, what the prosecution wants you to do is connect the dots. Remember when O`Mara did this? Dots. You said, you can`t fill in the blanks with emotions or hearsay. Could have, would have, should have. So, I think they did an excellent job but, as you know, we`re not the jurors. So, they`re seeing something that we didn`t see.
And I think frankly, it`s very troubling for the defense to have the jurors come back and want an explanation to manslaughter. What that tells me is that the women were impacted by emotion. And they`re thinking through, what if we don`t convict this guy of manslaughter? The public pressure that will be put on them. That`s what I think happen.
First of all, I think that`s rude of you to have such little faith in these jurors. Let`s start with that, Crystal, OK, A. B, if they come back with the manslaughter verdict --
WRIGHT: No, don`t lecture me.
HUTT: Frankly, if they come back with a manslaughter verdict, then frankly it`s because they didn`t believe George Zimmerman`s claim that he really was afraid, that he was in danger of imminent bodily harm or in danger of imminent death, and so that his force was unreasonable. I wouldn`t say that that was just based on their emotion.
PINSKY: Brian, I want you to get in here.
BRIAN COPELAND, AUTHOR, "NOT A GENUINE BLACK MAN": Well, you know, first of all. I`m with legal most observer, not that I`m a legal observer. Most legal observers who believe that the second degree murder charge was an overcharge anyway. You know, manslaughter is what the charge should have been from the very beginning.
Now, I will tell you, I was of the mind that manslaughter was the thing he should be convicted of. After reading a blog today by our distinguished colleague Mark, he makes a really good legal point. While morally, we may believe that he`s guilty and that he is wrong but if you follow the letter of the law in terms of reasonable doubt and in terms of self defense in Florida, they have to let him walk.
But the other part of this is, they know, the whole world is watching. They know that they are under a microscope, so I got to believe that they are under some pressure, a lot of pressure to make sure that George Zimmerman pays in some way.
PINSKY: All right. Hang on.
COPELAND: One more think I`d like to add. One more thing I`d like to add if I can.
PINSKY: Brian, I`m sorry, Brian.
COPELAND: There`s one more thing I`d like to add if I can and that is, something I`m surprised about, if you remember back with the O.J. trial, they said they were going to give the public a one-hour notice before the verdict came in.
WRIGHT: Right. Right.
COPELAND: So that I assumed law enforcement could get ready and people could brace themselves. Finally. Because like tonight, there were fears of writing, I`m surprised that they are not doing this in the case.
PINSKY: Crystal, you have something to say it though.
WRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Sanford police Brian, has already given a press conference. They are bracing. And I think really it`s become a circus act. And the reason why they`re bracing for riots, let`s be frank Brian and everybody else --
COPELAND: No. Let`s not be frank. We`re not frank, ever. No.
WRIGHT: The riots have been toke since the beginning of last year when Jesse Jackson and Reverend Al Sharpton, and everybody headed down in Sanford and tried to turn this into a race act. The FBI report found race had nothing to do with Zimmerman`s murdering Trayvon Martin. That`s what the FBI reported.
COPELAND: Excuse me. Crystal, so do you mean to tell me then that if Trayvon Martin was a white boy walking home from the store that George Zimmerman would have behaved in exactly the same manner? That he would have look it in the -- oh, here is someone suspicious.
WRIGHT: I`m telling you, if George Zimmerman was black, you wouldn`t be talking about this case.
COPELAND: No. Wrong. Wrong.
WRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Right.
COPELAND: If in fact this was a situation that was reversed, as the prosecutor says, if it reversed where Trayvon had been the shooter and Zimmerman had been the one profiled, I would be feeling exactly the same way. Although, you`re right. Although, you`re right. I wouldn`t be here. Because if this were Trayvon, he would have been in jail that night.
PINSKY: Can I jump in here? Hold on.
WRIGHT: First of all, the gun laws, I don`t know if a 17-year-old can purchase a gun legally in Florida, I`m not a lawyer --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
PINSKY: Guys?
WRIGHT: So what John Guy was saying made no sense.
PINSKY: OK, now --
WRIGHT: Because Trayvon Martin would have had the gun illegally, right?
PINSKY: Hold on.
COPELAND: Yes. If Trayvon Martin was 28-years-old at the time.
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
WRIGHT: No -- he said that.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, you`ve been waiting very patiently. I know you have your take. Let me just -- and I know it`s going to be about the passions that have been inflamed by this case well beyond even what Brian and Crystal were talking about. Go ahead.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I wanted to ask Mark something. I had a question today from someone because yesterday I heard on the radio from a very reputable announcer, DJ, host, that -- telling the black community, not to worry whether or not Zimmerman gets guilty or not. Because there will be a civil trial. And if he is found guilty in the civil trial, then he can be retried on this and still be convicted of murder.
EIGLARSH: No double jeopardy.
ALI: Is that true? Can that happen?
EIGLARSH: Oh, you heard wrong, my hat wearing friend. Yes, no. Double jeopardy. Once he`s acquitted of this, if that were to happen, that`s it.
ALI: What was that? What did he say? Who was that said my hat wearing friend.
PINSKY: Mark.
ALI: Who said that?
EIGLARSH: That was --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: That was me, making an observation about your attire. That`s all right. It wasn`t derogatory.
ALI: Well, don`t make an observation. Don`t make an observation, devil, if it`s going to be an insult. Now, don`t do that. Let`s not go there.
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
EIGLARSH: I wouldn`t do that. Believe me.
ALI: I won`t be happy then, and I know you want me to be happy.
EIGLARSH: We do want you to be happy, Ms. Ali.
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
PINSKY: Hold on. I want your opinion, though, Miss Ali. Throw up some of these twitter handles. I had a whole bunch of tweets yesterday. There were so many that actually it shut down my own personal twitter. And want to show you couple of these. I want you to react to them. Here is Doris.
ALI: OK.
PINSKY: "You`ve made an important discovery about trauma as it relates to resonance with historical racism. Hope people are openly listening to you." That was @Doris_is.
Give you the next tweet, "Dr. Drew, no one in the panel can relate to what Miss Ali is saying. This is how people in the black community talk and feel every day." And that Miss Ali was a lot of what I got yesterday. You were speaking about something that tapped into something people really thought was real. Tell us about that again.
ALI: Well, many of our people do feel that. I don`t think that the majority community in this country realizes that we were dragged here as slaves. Our names were taken. Our religion was taken. Our god was taken. Our food, or culture, and everything that we stood for. And so today, when we are maybe doing things and practicing a barring behavior, this is why, we have lost our identity.
Many of them don`t know who they are now. And we have generations now who don`t even care who they are. And so we`re losing a lot of our own people, and the self hatred that develops from us being in slavery is practiced today which is why we hate sometime each other and want to kill each other. You don`t realize that that was going on. Or if you do realize, you don`t care.
PINSKY: Well, I care very deeply. Hold on, everybody. I care --
EIGLARSH: Can I ask something?
PINSKY: No, I have to go to break. You can hold that until after the break. Miss Ali, why I keep trying focus on what you`re feeling? Because it`s tapping on something that people feel is quite accurate and quite real.
ALI: Yes.
PINSKY: And we do care. We do care. We want to hear about it. Panel stays with me. We are on verdict watch.
ALI: Well, I certainly think that you care, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, my dear. We will bring you the very latest
ALI: I think that you care, Dr. Drew, and I thank you for that.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, my dear. We`ll hear more from this in just a minute. We will also hear exclusively from a pretrial witness. There he is. You don`t want to miss this. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, SHOOTER OF TRAYON MARTIN: This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: When he profiled a 17-year-old boy that had skittles.
ZIMMERMAN: It`s raining and he`s just walking around looking about.
DISPATCHER: OK. Is this guy white, black or Hispanic?
ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Why does this defendant get out of the car if he thinks Trayvon Martin is a threat to him? Why? Why? Because he has a gun.
ZIMMERMAN: I was walking back to my truck and then when I got to right about here, he yelled from behind me, to the side me. He said, yo, you got a problem?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: George Zimmerman has lied and lied and lied. And this jury cannot trust anything he says.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: My God. It`s his community and he`s not going to put up with it. If the police are taking too long to respond, he`s going to handle it.
JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR: Trayvon Martin may not have the defendant`s blood on his hands, but George Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon Martin`s blood on his.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with my co-host Jenny Hunt. We are on verdict watch. We will cut to that courthouse whenever we get any new news.
My panel is back with me. Crystal, I want to go to you. Ms. Ali, first I actually show you a tweet that I got during the commercial break. Let`s put that up there if you guys could. Thank you, where is this? There you go. "Thank you for finally addressing the issues on race and trauma in the Black Month."
Crystal, what we heard from Miss Ali before the break was, she was addressing something I saw on twitter yesterday referred to probably 100 times as the black holocaust. I don`t know if you use that word, Ms. Ali. But she`s responding to, she`s talking about trauma, they were perpetrated against a particular race for hundreds of years. How do you respond to what she was saying?
WRIGHT: I don`t think that Shahrazad is moving the discussion forward. I think she`s moving it backward in a really bad manner. Because she keeps lumping all black people in this black box. I want her A, to define what is self hatred? Let me finish. What is self hatred?
ALI: Well --
WRIGHT: Do you, Dr. Drew have self hatred as a white man? And this whole, you know, talking about slavery, yes, I will agree with you Shahrazad, blacks don`t know their history. The fact that it was Republicans, President Lincoln who took a laser-focused to end slavery.
COPELAND: Wait a minute. That was a bogus argument! That was a bogus argument!
PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on, Brian.
WRIGHT: To pass the 13th, 14th and 15th --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
COPELAND: That is a bogus argument!
PINSKY: One at a time.
WRIGHT: Let me finish.
PINSKY: One at a time.
WRIGHT: Blacks don`t know their history. They continue to throw away their political power to the Democrat Party who hasn`t done anything for them in 50 years. President Obama just gave his first meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus in over two years this past week. Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic. Black people --
COPELAND: Let me say something here.
PINSKY: Brian, hold it.
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
Hold it. I want Miss Ali to respond and Brian. Miss Ali, respond.
ALI: OK. What I want to respond to is that Lincoln didn`t free the slaves. That`s another lie we want corrected in the history books.
WRIGHT: You`re a liar.
ALI: Lincoln had to break the financial wealth and power of the South. And the only way he could do that was to crack down --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
WRIGHT: Democrats were in power in the South.
ALI: The free labor we provided was allowing them to be so wealthy that they could win the war between the North and the South.
WRIGHT: Democrats were in power in the South.
ALI: He didn`t care anything about us.
WRIGHT: Democrats wanted --
COPELAND: Let me say something please.
WRIGHT: Democrats ran the confederacy.
ALI: He didn`t care anything about us.
PINSKY: OK.
ALI: Crystal has spent too much time in the House. The rest of us have been in the field.
PINSKY: Brian, go ahead.
COPELAND: All right, first of all, the Lincoln was a republican. And Republicans were the ones who freed the slave argument is bogus. The Republican Party became the -- the Democratic Party essentially became the Republican Party after the 1964 civil rights act was signed. All the segregation has became --
WRIGHT: That`s not true.
COPELAND: That is true. The segregation has became -- yes it is.
WRIGHT: That`s not true, I`ve been a republican. And many people have stayed Republicans.
COPELAND: The segregation has become Republicans.
WRIGHT: And Senator Byrnes?
COPELAND: Strom Thurmond --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
PINSKY: Hold on. One at a time. Can`t hear you guys, you were both talking with each other.
COPELAND: Most of the Dixiecrats who continue to hold on to that philosophy became Republicans. That was part of Nixon`s strategy. Why do you think that the South is republican now?
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
WRIGHT: Not Senator Al Gore Sr.
PINSKY: Let me just say something. Let me just say something here, guys. I couldn`t hear what you`re saying because you`re talking over each other. I`m sort of a linking a file. And I would urge everyone to go read the Lincoln-Douglas debates. And you will see a very clear argument against slavery that he talked about how the slavery issue moved him to action why he got back into politics.
WRIGHT: Thank you.
PINSKY: And he was not an abolitionist, though. He was not. Because that was considered a radical point of view then. But he came --
WRIGHT: He was not because he left the Whig Party.
PINSKY: He was not an abolitionist. He was never an abolitionist. He left the Whig, formed the Republicans.
WRIGHT: Why did he leave the Whig Party?
PINSKY: He had a profound belief in the declaration of independence. The first race that really founded this country, not the constitution.
HUTT: Right.
PINSKY: That all men are created equal.
HUTT: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Jenny. Jenny first.
HUTT: OK. Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
HUTT: First of all, big fan of Lincoln. So, I`ll start with that. Second of all, what are we talking about here? I think Miss Ali.
COPELAND: The movie?
HUTT: I can`t believe I`m going to agree with Crystal for a minute. I can`t believe it. But I am. Miss Ali, here`s the issue I feel like with you. I get your sadness. I get the trauma. And I feel for you that you carry this burden and weight around with you. But what are you doing to try to move forward to heal yourself to feel better? Like Brenda Wade (ph) who was on last night, who was so eloquent.
ALI: Well, the first thing I`m doing.
HUTT: Yes.
ALI: Wait a minute. The first thing I`m doing -- the first thing I`m doing is confronting white people like you and telling you how you all have failed to make us still a part of the country!
HUTT: I`m sorry, hold on a minute!
PINSKY: That`s enough! One at a time.
EIGLARSH: This is a joke.
PINSKY: No, Brian. No, Mark. No joke. There`s no joke. That`s how she feels. It`s all right.
EIGLARSH: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I don`t believe she believes that. That`s about selling -- that to me at this point is such a joke. I believe she`s doing this to sell books.
HUTT: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mark.
EIGLARSH: I cannot believe with her responses that she truly believes that. I have more faith in her. I believe that she has more love in her heart.
PINSKY: Brian, settle this for me. Brian?
COPELAND: Well, first of all, I agree with Mark. For you to say, you white people is a blanketly racist statement.
All while people in the same category as a matter --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
ALI: Well, I was including you in that.
WRIGHT: I can`t even, by the way --
PINSKY: Miss Ali. Hang on. Everybody stop for a second. Miss Ali, sometimes you say things that are so over the top. You laugh but then I realize they are offensive to people. So, you have to really slowdown everybody. We got it listen. Here`s what I want to do. I hope we`ve accomplished something. Twitter is exploding. We`re tapping it to something. What have we tapped into? It`s a feeling that Miss Ali carries around that other people relate to. And we`ve established one thing is that people need to read their history. I think that is something that people need to do very, very carefully. And I think we need to talk about this thing.
ALI: We need to rewrite the history first.
PINSKY: There`s no revision in history. We`re looking at the words that came out of people`s mouth that actually did this stuff. That`s what we should really look at. And that we should really talk about this trauma that makes people feel so passionately about this.
I got to go panel. The jury is still deliberating. We will bring you the latest. Up next, exclusive with the witness who confronted a dummy from the stand. After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GUY: And he said he was in the waist area and then the defendant may have or Trayvon Martin may have slid down, and my question to you is, would it be consistent the 90 degrees, if Trayvon Martin had been backing up and the defendant raised his gun and shot it 90 degrees?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: With you at that angle? Ninety degrees to what, sir? When we`re talking about 90 degrees, we`re talking about this degree.
GUY: Right. Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: So if it`s front to back, 90 degrees and you`re standing there, and you`re holding a gun, already you`re at least 45 degrees where you are. Because he`s laying flat on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. And here now is a look at the courthouse. We are on verdict watch on the George Zimmerman trial. We will keep you posted the moment we hear anything about the jury and where they are out, they are still deliberating apparently. They`ve been at it for more than 15 hours.
We are joined by a guest whom you will not see anywhere else. He was a key witness. Dennis Root, the man who prompted the mannequin to make the appearance in the courtroom. This was Mr. Root`s first trial as a paid expert witness. He is the president of Dennis Root & Associates.
Also here with us, Mark Eiglarsh and Brian Copeland will join us in this conversation. All right. Dennis, the state came after you, they attacked your credibility. It seemed to me like that was sort of prosecution 101 but it surprised you, did it not?
DENNIS ROOT, KEY DEFENSE WITNESS: It took me off guard a little bit in the manner in which they had done it. It`s expecting every time that you testify in court that one side each has their strategy. And I was a little taken aback by the manner in which he did it. But, you know, it`s to be expected.
PINSKY: What was it that bothered you?
ROOT: I think what bothered me most was the fact that he tried to make an issue out of the fact that I went to the defense to make it just a media issue. You know, common sense says that, yes, this will be a case that`s followed very closely by the media, but as I pointed out in the trial during my testimony, I needed to make sure that whoever I approached gave me the best opportunity to serve justice.
And the reality was, if I went to the state and I decided that, wait, I couldn`t help them. That was it. It was over from that point. However, by going to the defense by going on that side, if I learned, if I come to the conclusion that wow, I can help them, I can step away from the case and I would not hinder either side, the truth is the state has access to experts like myself.
PINSKY: Mark, do you have a question for Mr. Root?
EIGLARSH: I do. Dennis, didn`t you think for one moment to answer the question like the following? Yes, I know that the media is watching and yes, it would be great for my business. That`s absolutely one of the reasons why I`m part of this. Why did you just say that? Because I think that that`s part of the truth, isn`t it?
ROOT: Absolutely it`s part of the truth. But I guess one of the things we could say very simply is, this was the first time that I testified in front of a jury in this way. It was also in front of cameras. So, I guess maybe there was some a little bit of stress induced from that. And, you know, we look back at everything and we always imagine, man, I wish I could have said it a little bit better.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s way courtrooms really put a pressure cooker that they really put everybody under a microscope. Dennis, what did you make of the mannequin when it showed up?
ROOT: At first I was very taken off guard by it. I understood that - - as a visual aide. The downside to the use of it was, it was very -- it wasn`t dynamic like -- unfolds. And we were doing basically stop capture type movements. Put you in this position. Could you get to it? So, really, you know, I`m trying to be a neutral person, I answered each question as accurately as I could given the reference that I was being given.
PINKSY: Brian, I understand you have some issues with Mr. Root. Go ahead.
COPELAND: Yes, Hi, Mr. Root. The one part of your testimony I had a problem with is you have created what I have pointed was defense. And that is George Zimmerman was too big of a wuss to be able to fight Trayvon Martin by himself without using a gun. He had no choice. Now, I`ll ask you the question I`ll ask Mr. Taki (ph) the other night. And that is, I have got a son who is Trayvon`s age. I`m 20 years older than Mr. Zimmerman. In a fair fight, Trayvon`s age, Trayon`s size, weight, in a fair fight, I could take that kid without pulling out a gun. So I have a problem with you saying that there`s no way that the George Zimmerman in his shape at that time could have done that. I find that really hard to believe.
ROOT: And I can respect your perspective on that. And the truth is, you know, maybe you have more faith in your abilities. Maybe you have something that George Zimmerman doesn`t have. All I can do is base my opinions off the information that I am given and what I try to do is approach everything from a neutral perspective.
And the reality comes down to not everybody has that fighting spirit. And in this case, you know, when we talk about the ultimate end of how the encounter ended, it was about what was inside of George Zimmerman`s head. And that`s what I was forming my opinions to.
PINSKY: Jenny, I know you have a question.
Control, do I have enough time for Jenny to ask something?
OK, Jenny, go ahead.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I just wanted to know, if -- did you sense anything from the jury? Which way they were leaning? Did they seem more engaged on either -- toward either side?
ROOT: You know, being my first jury in this setting, it was one of the first juries I have ever seen that took so many notes during a testimony. There was a lot of recognition, at least from my perspective. There was a lot of head nodding. There was a lot of note taking. But, you know, if there is anything that I`ve learned in my career as a law enforcement professional, with a jury, you just -- you never know.
PINSKY: OK. We must go to break. The jury has been deliberating for 16 hours now. We are on verdict watch. We will bring you the latest as we get it.
And later Miss Ali joins the behavior bureau to respond to her critics. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. Here now is a look at the courthouse. Let`s put that up there. We are on verdict watch in the George Zimmerman trial. We will keep you posted the moment we hear something from the jury. Of course that jury is still deliberating at it. We`re 16 hours now. HLN host Mike Galanos is at the courthouse.
Is there anything now going on that you want to report to us, Galanos?
MIKE GALANOS, HLN HOST: Pretty quiet. I just looked down near where George Zimmerman`s family supporters are. His father is pacing up and down the hallway. Mom is trying to relax and have a sip of water. There`s a heaviness there and a tension really throughout this courthouse. I`m looking outside. And one thing -- I was just talking to an officer and it`s surprised that they haven`t turned on more lights because there is -- there are some people there, hard to gauge how many folks, but those are just some of the few things we`re monitoring here. And if anything happens I`m right back with you, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mike. Stay -- stand by, I`ll go to you the moment you have anything to tell us.
We are back with our guests. Key defense witness Dennis Root and Mark Eiglarsh and Brian Copeland.
OK. So Mark, biggest problem you felt with Dennis` testimony? Anything?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, the natural built-in bias. I really raised that. And I think that he`s kind of aggressive. If he could do it over he`d look at them and say, sure, I wanted some of the fame that goes along with this. There`s nothing wrong with that.
The other thing, though, I wanted to know is, he said that the jurors were receptive and they were taking notes. I`m wondering if he -- you know, we generally know whether we`re being received positive or not. Did he get a gut feeling when they were writing notes, when he was speaking, that it was like a favorable vibe? Because this whole case hinges now on whether George was justified in using deadly force.
PINSKY: Dennis?
ROOT: You know, it`s interesting you point that out. I`ve been asked that by just about everybody, and I always try to stay very reserved. But the reality was, while I was speaking with the jury, and I did everything I could to maintain eye contact with them because they`re the people I`m speaking to, and I have a lot of people nodding their heads. Some of them smiled at me during the testimony.
I felt as though they understood what I was saying. So in that perspective I really think the defense was able to deliver information through me that maybe they either didn`t see or didn`t understand completely to that point.
PINSKY: Brian.
COPELAND: Well, Mr. Root, some analysts say that you helped the defense and others say that you helped the prosecution. Since you were that hired gun for the defense, if Mr. Zimmerman is convicted, are you going to do any soul-searching or maybe second guess your testimony, or take maybe things you said that -- that you didn`t say that you should have?
ROOT: No. And the reason I say that is, you point out something great that I was, you know, beneficial to both sides. Because the truth is the truth. When you`re asked a question as an expert witness, if it`s a possibility, you have to say it`s a possibility.
I`ve done everything I can to be as neutral as possible. I don`t see a bias from how I viewed the case and looked through the information and reviewed the evidence. So at the end of the day, when it`s said and done, I did everything that I could as an expert witness based on my training background and experience that I did in this case.
PINSKY: And, Jen, I know you want to ask something.
HUTT: I do. So -- so you`ll be OK if they come back with either a guilty verdict or murder two or a guilty verdict for manslaughter?
ROOT: No, I don`t want to make it -- that`s not what I meant at all.
HUTT: OK.
ROOT: I mean, in my opinion, I think that he should be acquitted. That`s my opinion. You know, I`ve done everything that I can, everything that we do when we look back we can always find something. Just like I was speaking with Mark, you know, we can always look back and say how we could have made -- better phrased something. I don`t want to give the impression that I`m fine no matter what the verdict is.
PINSKY: Very quickly, control room, do we have any callers for Mr. Root? And I wonder if Miss Ali has any questions for him? I know she is standing by. Is she available?
Miss Ali, have you been -- have you been listening to Mr. Root and what he was saying about the testimony? I`m just curious if you have anything you`d like to ask him. Are you available there?
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that, you know, there has been a question about whether or not Zimmerman will be safe if he is found not guilty. And what -- you know, kind of (INAUDIBLE). I think he will be safer than I will be when I leave the studio to go get my car in the garage.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Miss Ali, first of all, A, I certainly hope not. But B, my understanding in Mr. Root is that this is no laughing matter for you. That people have actually threatened you as well?
ROOT: Yes. Everybody talks about the media coverage. And I can tell you for a fact that I have gotten extensive negative comments from people as well as positive, but I`ve also received death threats.
PINSKY: Where? Like in your Twitter or phone? Or -- how does this come through to you?
ROOT: Via the e-mail system on our Web site. They basically use their Contact Us form to create their e-mails directly to the company which comes to me obviously. And they relay the information to me in --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Now, Miss Ali, and Brian -- well, Miss Ali, we`ll go to you. You`re the one that`s saying this -- all these inflamed passions are a good thing. But it doesn`t let us operate if people can`t testify in court without fear of their life.
COPELAND: That`s right. That`s right.
ALI: Well, I think, you know, every time over the years that we have gone to court, our lives have always been in jeopardy. They`re in jeopardy before we go to court and when we come out.
And let me say this to Mark while we have him there. These crowns that I wear are designations that I am a queen. The queen of the universe and the mother of civilization, and I didn`t appreciate him making an insult to me, Dr. Drew. I want you to get my back with him.
PINSKY: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
Hang on. Hang on. Two things. Mark, an apology will be awesome.
EIGLARSH: While I don`t agree with most of the things that flows from her lips, the acknowledgment about the hat was not derogatory. It`s all love. It`s all peace.
PINSKY: And therefore --
ALI: Yes, it was.
EIGLARSH: So if I offended you, I apologize, Madame Queen.
PINSKY: Thank you. OK, guys.
EIGLARSH: Let`s all join hands and sing "We are the World."
PINSKY: Well, I don`t think that can happen right now.
EIGLARSH: Come on.
PINSKY: I`m just saying.
EIGLARSH: She took offense to the hat? Really? God.
PINSKY: Mark, she`s going to take offense to that now, too? So your apology --
ALI: It`s not a hat. It`s a crown.
PINSKY: Everybody -- Mr. Root. Thank you for joining us. It`s been an exclusive on our show and I appreciate you being here. And we will see. We will see the outcome of your testimony in --
EIGLARSH: Thanks for having me with on with royalty, by the way. Thank you.
PINSKY: Mark, Mark, easy. Easy. She wants to be --
ALI: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: OK.
ALI: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: The jury has been deliberating for 16 hours, guy. We are on VERDICT WATCH. We will bring you the latest when we get it.
And next, Miss Ali joins her critics and supporters in the behavior bureau. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Frank, I agree with you. The fact that you have a type of person doing burglaries in a neighborhood and they all happen to be black suspects is something that the police talk about all the time. The first question I get asked or my neighbors get asked when we -- file a police report and call 91, what does the suspect look like? And the fact is, Miss Ali, Frank didn`t say all black men are going around killing. He talked about a specific incident --
ALI: Yes, he did.
WRIGHT: -- that he had a preponderance of black men in a neighborhood.
(CROSSTALK)
And the fact is, Miss Ali, more blacks -- excuse me, Miss Ali. More blacks are killing and are -- more blacks are killing and are in prison --
ALI: I want to talk.
PINSKY: You will. Hold on.
WRIGHT: -- than any other race.
ALI: OK.
WRIGHT: So I`m sorry you don`t like that. We need to be talking about the root problem of what`s causing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for the "Behavior Bureau." Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. We are on verdict watch in the George Zimmerman trial. We will keep you posted the moment we hear something from that courtroom. I`ll be going out to Mike Galanos to talk to him about the late hour of this deliberation. They are still deliberating and have been at it for 16 hours.
Miss Ali is back with us and joining me. Samantha Shocker, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychotherapist and HLN contributor Tiffanie Davis Henry ,and we brought Miss Ali back into the "Behavior Bureau" tonight because we are hoping to look for insight and solution.
But first let`s look at some of the tweets we got last night about Miss Ali. This is Rayb3, it looks, "Dr. Drew, 400 years doesn`t go away over night. The effects of those years are in our faces every single day."
Let`s look at now, libertyisamzing. "Dr. Drew, I understand why the `Behavior Bureau` looked shocked at what Miss Ali is saying but that is just how African-Americans are raised to feel."
Let`s go to Miss Ali. Let`s hear her out. And we`re going to go around the horn of the "Behavior Bureau". I think you all know where we`re going.
Miss Ali, we want to understand what`s in your heart. We wanted to understand about the solutions to what`s in your heart? What do you think we can do to understand this more deeply?
ALI: All we`ve heard and all we hear is information about the founding fathers. Well, the founding fathers were not our fathers. And at the time of the founding fathers, most of them, all of them owned slaves, which was us. And so when you talk about the founding fathers, that`s not us.
My uncle was brought over by a trader 379 years ago. My uncle does not speak his own language. He does not have his own god.
PINSKY: OK.
ALI: We don`t have our own culture.
PINSKY: Tiffany?
ALI: We don`t have anything.
PINSKY: I`m going to --
ALI: So the founding fathers it`s hard to respect that.
PINSKY: I get you. I understand.
Tiffanie, my -- my relatives came over running away from the Russian pangrams and trying to get away from the Russian revolution. And I -- they weren`t from England and they weren`t part of the aristocracy. How do we heal this stuff, Tiffany?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think one of the things that we have to understand is that every African-American`s experience is very, very different. And especially African-Americans that are of today. Many of those individuals don`t know, unfortunately, and I think in some ways Miss Ali is right. And in some ways Crystal is right.
There`s a lot of history that African-Americans don`t know. And they know it based on what their grandparents might have taught them. But they don`t necessarily know it through experience. Where Miss Ali comes from, she speaks for experience. And you cannot take that away from her. Where I come from, there may have been some things of discrimination or oppression that I`ve experienced, but my experience pales in comparison to hers.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I`m going to have you comment now.
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that what we`re really talking about here is how profound intergenerational trauma can be. When you have a history this painful for hundreds and hundreds of years, it`s very hard for parents to teach their children that they can live in a world where they expect to be safe and feel safe.
And you know, when we look at how we heal from this, what I say about when we know that we`re healing from trauma is number one, trauma is the ability to -- loss of the ability to know when we`re safe. So we can tell that we are safe, that`s one big healing thing. The other is if we can compassionately take good care of ourselves. And people lose the ability. Whether it`s from a history of slavery, the children and grandchildren of holocaust survivors. People who`ve had a terrible histories have trouble.
PINSKY: Sheryl, I got to interrupt. We have some breaking news. Got to go to break right now. I`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are back with breaking news from the courthouse. We are hearing that there could be a verdict.
Mike Galanos, we are trying to get him on the phone right now. There is something going on in the courthouse which is why some of this perky, jerky quality to our program this evening. Something is going on right now.
Mike Galanos, can we go out to you yet?
GALANOS: We have a verdict. We have a verdict. A verdict has been delivered.
(CHEERS)
PINSKY: We are hearing there is a verdict. Is that correct, Vinnie?
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Yes, we are getting word that we have a verdict, Dr. Drew. So this is it, folks. This jury has been out for -- what is it? More than 16 hours? And now they have reached consensus. The six women of Seminole County have come to a consensus. They have reached their verdict.
What`s that? OK. The court has sent official notification via Twitter. That`s the way it`s done these days. And there`s a lot of activity inside the courtroom. There you see the great seal of the state of Florida. We are just moments away because it`s not going to take long, folks. Everybody was waiting in the courtroom --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
POLITAN: -- murder, manslaughter, or not guilty. And what a big difference between those three verdicts. The top one you`re talking about 25 years to life, 10 to 30. Not guilty means he goes home and he never has to face charges related to this ever again.
If you`re just joining us, ladies and gentlemen, we just got word moments ago that a verdict has been reached in the George Zimmerman trial. There`s a live shot inside the courtroom. There`s George Zimmerman`s security detail making his way in. Waiting for the lawyers to take their place.
George Zimmerman already in the courtroom. He was waiting in the courthouse. And for George Zimmerman, he has shot and killed another human being. And the only question that needs to be answered is, was it in self- defense or not?
There you see a shot of the gallery. I have not yet seen Trayvon Martin`s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, yet enter the courtroom. And obviously the judge will give enough time for everyone to show up. Everyone who should be in the courtroom at this moment which is obviously George Zimmerman and his family and Trayvon Martin`s family. There`s a shot we get to see. There`s Shellie Zimmerman. There`s Gladys Zimmerman, George Zimmerman`s mom, and his wife.
The rest of his life he will know where it`s going to be. Whether it`s free or behind bars. That`s what he`s going to learn in just a few moments.
Looking now towards the back of the courtroom, more folks making their way in, obviously members of the media filing in. There`s Bernie de la Rionda, John Guy, the two -- two of the three prosecutors who worked so hard to bring this case to trial.
I have not yet seen Mark O`Mara and Don West. But the camera hasn`t panned over that way yet. But this is a moment unlike any other moment that you`ll see on television. And if you experience in the courtroom and real life, it`s unlike any moment because a decision that has such huge implications for two families is about to be rendered inside the courtroom.
Again, ladies and gentlemen, if you`re just joining us, a verdict has been reached in the George Zimmerman trial. We are waiting for everyone to assemble in the courtroom. But unlike some other high high-profile cases it`s not going to take long for everyone to get there. It`s just going to take a few more moments. So we are going to learn what the six women of Seminole County have to say.
Is George Zimmerman a murderer? Is George Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter? Or is George Zimmerman going home tonight?
We will find out in just a few moments. We`re gathering everyone. We`ve got folks inside the courtroom, outside the courtroom, down in Sanford. And obviously the nation is waiting for this jury to speak.
They deliberated just over 16 hours. No one is going to argue that they just went in there and made decision willy-nilly. These women worked hard. They deliberated yesterday. More than 12 hours today. They wanted a list of all the evidence. They had all the evidence in that jury room.
So the one thing that is obvious is that these six women have fought long and hard about their decision, but, yes, they have come to consensus. It`s a unanimous verdict one way or the other. And again, there is George Zimmerman, and I can`t imagine what that moment is like because he has no idea. And he has no control over what is about to happen.
Now the reaction. What will George Zimmerman`s reaction be if it`s guilty? But on the other hand, what will be the reaction on the other side of the courtroom? For Tracy Martin? For Sybrina Fulton who just over a year ago lost their son who they will never get back, who are looking for justice. And justice for them means that this man gets convicted.
For George Zimmerman and his family, he`s been saying this is a wrongful prosecution that`s been motivated by things outside of law enforcement, outside of the system of justice. That it was politics. That is was some sort of pressure placed on Angela Corey. Some sort of pressure placed on our system that put him in that chair to face these charges to begin with.
Who will walk out of that courtroom feeling vindicated? You know, for George Zimmerman, he walks out, he`s free. For Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, if George Zimmerman is found guilty, yes, there is a sense -- some sense of justice. But Trayvon is not coming back. My colleague, Nancy Grace, is with us now.
Nancy, a verdict has been reached. Your thoughts, right here, right now. Nancy?
OK. We`re still waiting to get hooked up with Nancy Grace as soon as she can hear me -- Nancy, just jump in as soon as you can.
This is the courtroom. And again I don`t know if everyone is in there yet. Obviously the judge is not there but what will happen is, the judge will take the bench, and then they`ll have to bring in the six women of Seminole County who will deliver this verdict.
But I have not seen Sybrina Fulton or Tracy Martin yet. I`ve not seen Mark O`Mara. There`s -- oh, there`s Mark O`Mara. Mark O`Mara, Don West, and the defense team is there. So they are ready to hear. But as I watch George Zimmerman, the one thing that strikes me is that he is not moving. Seeming almost paralyzed there.
There`s his father, his mother, his wife in the front row. George Zimmerman does not have children. But he is married. The tension -- the tension inside that courtroom, I can`t imagine. I can`t imagine. And it`s for everyone involved.
Everyone is rising. The judge is taking the bench. Let`s listen in, ladies and gentlemen.
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: I understand that we have a verdict. Are we ready for the jury to come in?
MARK O`MARA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We are, your honor.
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Yes, your honor.
NELSON: OK. Let`s go ahead and bring them in. And I will remind everybody in the courtroom that there`s to be no outbursts upon the reading of the verdict or afterwards.
Please be seated.
Members of the jury, have you reached a verdict? If you please hold the verdict form and hand it to Deputy Jarvis. OK. If you`ll please read the verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the Circuit Court of the 18th Judicial Circuit in and for Seminole County, Florida, "State of Florida versus George Zimmerman." Verdict. We the jury find George Zimmerman not guilty. So say we all, fore person.
NELSON: Does either side want to poll the jury?
DE LA RIONDA: We would, your honor.
NELSON: OK. Ladies and gentlemen, as -- I mean, ladies, I`m sorry. As your juror number is being called, please answer whether this is your verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror B-29, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror B-76, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror B-37, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror B-51, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror E-6, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror E-40, is this your verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
NELSON: Ladies, I wish to thank you for your time and consideration of this case. I also wish to advise you with some very special privileges enjoyed by jurors.
END
