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Dr. Drew
Hot Car Baby Death Outrage
Aired June 25, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, outrage in the hot car baby death. Did a father murder his own child by leaving him in a
sweltering car for seven hours? Our behavior bureau tries to figure it out.
Plus, teen`s massacre plots stop in the nick of time
LADUE: I think I`m just really mentally ill and no one has noticed. I`ve been trying to hide it.
PINKSY: Then why did he put a homemade bomb video on YouTube?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
Coming up, fast moving developments in the hot car murder case, including a press conference that has just wrapped.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: That`s right. And this is a story that you all commented most about on our Facebook page today.
PINSKY: Yes, there`s a lot about this today. Murder charges being leveled against a Georgia father who left his son to die in an unbearably
hot car. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin Ross Harris went to Chick-fil-A according to police before he went to work with his 21-month-old son, Cooper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At lunchtime, the father goes out to his car, opens the door, puts something in, closes the door and goes back to work.
Do we know what form that evidence is in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Presumably this is video evidence.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: New warrants downgrade the charges against Harris to cruelty to children in the second degree. The new warrant accuses
Harris of criminal negligence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the evidences point to the fact that there was foul play, what`s the motive?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether this was an accident or intentional, he`s going to be held responsible for the child`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overbearing charges could send his family into bankruptcy and more pain and suffering.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That last video was from YouTube and CNN asked the district attorney for comment was has not heard back. We`ll have more on that
coming up.
Joining me to discuss, Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com, Victor Blackwell is again here with us, host of CNN`s "New Day", he has been
covering the case from the beginning, and Katie Kieffer, she`s columnist, political commentator and author of "Let Me Be Clear: Barack Obama`s War on
Millennials and One Woman`s Case for Hope", and Evy Poumpouras, security expert, former special agent for the Secret Service.
Victor, will please give us the latest?
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the highlights of the day, really important here. We`ve learned from the medical examiners office that the
manner of death for this 22-month-old Cooper Harris homicide, and the cause of death hyper thermia, overheating of the body. But also there was a
release of the new arrest warrant which at the start of day, Justin Ross Harris took his child to Chick-fil-A and he`s seen plays the boy in the car
seat rear facing.
Now, for people who have kids, a 22-month-old still in the rear facing position, that`s a little large for the position. But also, he was in the
center of the seat. So, you have to consider, if he`s in the driver`s cease, you check that rearview mirror, you can see what`s in the center of
the seat between the headrest.
Another element we learned today, police alleged that Harris was seen at lunchtime at work, going back to that SUV, opening the driver`s side
door, placing something in, we don`t know what, closing the door and then leaving, the whole time we`re told by investigators that young boy was in
that sweltering car. Temperature could have hit 130, 140 degrees.
PINSKY: It`s a tragedy. A short time ago, the sheriff held a news conference. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What can you tell us about the serge of his computer showing that someone used his work computer to search for how long does it
take for an animal to die in a hot car?
SHERIFF: We`re not going to get into the specifics of the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Katie, there`s a lot of weird extenuating circumstances in this case. There`s the fact that a mile and a half before he got to work,
he had the child out of the car to get breakfast. He checked the car during lunch and then this weird computer search. What do you make of all
of this?
KATIE KEIFFER, COLUMNIST: My assessment is that we don`t have enough evidence to declare this man guilty. He is innocent until proven guilty.
I don`t see anything in his stopping at a restaurant for breakfast as out of line.
PINSKY: No, but a mile and a half later. Sam, a mile and a half later, he forgets he has a child in the car.
SCHACHER: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: It doesn`t pass the smell test whatsoever. I can call this man guilty. I think by what we`ve seen so far and hearing from the police
saying that they have physical and testimonial evidence that proves that this guy did not just forget about his child, I believe that this man is
guilty.
PINSKY: I don`t know about proof. But, Katie, tell me what you mean, you don`t feel this is peculiar, that if you have a child out of the car
and two minutes later, forget the child is this there?
KIEFFER: Right. There`s a few --we of course have to be careful and look for all of the evidence. Here`s a few other points I would like to
make, is that he came out at lunch. He didn`t come out at 2:00 p.m., he didn`t come at 10:30, he came out at a normal time when one might come out
because you have the break already built into your day. Most people who have children keep a car seat at all times in their car. And so, the fact
that he came out and maybe he saw the car seat, perhaps he just glanced at the car seat and didn`t realize that there was a child.
And then to get to the most important point is that it seems that the mother is refusing to speak, that`s highly suspicious. And why is she --
PINSKY: All right. Hold on.
KIEFFER: And the fact that -- just one more point.
PINSKY: I got four people I got to get to my dear. Hang on a second.
Vanessa, what do you got?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD: Look, I just think, everybody is so emotional about this story and rightly so, but we cannot exclude that fact
that we don`t have all of the facts.
PINSKY: So, you`re doubting --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: It makes me very emotional. I`m a mother.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s terribly disturbing but it doesn`t mean he`s guilty, right?
BARNETT: It doesn`t mean he`s guilty and we`re being reckless by calling him so.
PINSKY: Well, OK, that`s what Katie says, too. Sam says no.
Evy, you always blow things up. What do you say?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: So, I`m going to blow it up. I`m going to think like an investigator, I`m going to take my emotions out of
it, and I`m going to think logically and analytical about this.
A lot of red flags here. I don`t like the fact obviously, like you said, mile and a half lunch, he goes to Chick-fil-A. You drive a mile and
a half later, you forget the kid, you come out at noon, you check the char, you don`t happen to notice the kid. Those are all red flags.
The other red flag, the mother is not speaking. Huge red flag. Why is she not speaking?
I want to look at the computer. What is he Googling, is he searching leaving animals in cars? Red flag.
I want to know what the relationship is with the parents, with the child? Do they like the child? Was this a troubled child? Did he cry a
lot? Did he get on the parents` nerves?
A lot of time when we`re dealing with parents who turn on children, or baby seaters who turn children, it`s because the child was difficult.
PINSKY: But, they turn on as they shake them or they do something impulsive. They don`t cook them in a car.
Vanessa, you agree with me on this?
BARNETT: There`s so many things wrong with what you`ve said. First of all, the mother has been advised not to speak. And she`s grieving.
She`s just lost her child. She shouldn`t have to put on a parade, and don`t (INAUDIBLE) for you folks to believe whether or not her husband is
guilty or innocent --
POUMPOURAS: Vanessa, I`m speaking from an investigative perspective, not an emotional perspective.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: But you know what? I am emotional, and that`s fine, because I`m a parent and I`m telling you parents -- this isn`t the first time --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One at a time.
POUMPOURAS: This is not about opinion.
BARNETT: But this isn`t the first time this has happened. This has happened to several parents and it is devastating. This mother doesn`t
have to answer to you or anyone else.
POUMPOURAS: She has to answer to law enforcement.
PINSKY: Victor, let me ask one quick question. Is there sympathy for this man out there in the community?
BLACKWELL: Well, there initially was sympathy. There`s a change.org page that has more than 10,000 signatures asking the D.A. to drop the
charges. But a lot of people have gone back to the petition to say maybe I was wrong. Maybe I wasn`t clear here.
And let me add something we learned about the mother. Everyone has been asking where is she? Well, we know that she was here and questioned
by detectives, although they would characterize the fruit of that conversation. But at least we know she was here and investigators at least
followed that line of investigation.
PINSKY: Victor, thank you so much for giving us your report from the scene there. I got to get a behavior bureau in here, maybe for the
panelists if not for me to figure the story out.
We need all you all be a part of this discussion. Please join us right now on our Facebook page. That is Facebook.com/DrDrewHLN.
And later, I`m going to share some stories with you of people who have done the same thing as this man. We will examine their motive.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: I wouldn`t leave my purse alone, let alone a kid.
PINSKY: This is why we have moms because dads, we`re screw balls. I think to myself, oh my God, I could have made a gaffe -- it`s possible I
could have done something horrible like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motives that father`s use to kill their children are a little different than what we know about mothers who killed
their children. So, most oftentimes, when fathers decide to kill their children, it`s because they feel like they`ve lost aspect, or lost control
over something in their lives.
We don`t hear that about this family. We see them as a perfect picture. But that could all be a facade.
PINSKY: They seem like a stable family. There`s pictures on Facebook showing the toddler and the father, happy family. Neighbors say they were
loving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam. A father -- a tragedy, a father accused of murder in the death of his own toddler son. Could this have been just some
sort of awful lapse in judgment?
Sam, you say yes or no?
SCHACHER: It just doesn`t add up.
PINSKY: I say yes, I say yes. It`s possible. But OK --
SCHACHER: It`s possible but not in this case. Not in this case.
PINSKY: There`s some strange stuff going op. That`s why I want to bring in the behavior bureau.
Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Erica America, Z100 Radio personality and psychotherapist, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator and host of
"Tomboys" podcast on Blog Talk Radio.
And I`m asking you to please be a part of our show, tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN, #BehaviorBureau. We will be reviewing them and responding to
them.
I want to show you something Nancy Grace did today. She interviewed a witness at the scene when the dad discovered his rigor mortis-- the child
has been dead for at least four hours son. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got out of the car started screaming, "What did I do, what have I done." You know, starting behaving kind of strongly.
Not in shock but, you know, it was more suspicious, you know, putting on a show more than anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, this witness says the dad was putting on a show, but how can you -- I can`t imagine what it would be like to be in that
position.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Gosh, Dr. Drew, here`s what we know from the history of filicide and the research behind, is that most of times
it is extremely well-planned and executed. So it`s not something that`s accidental.
PINSKY: Whoa, whoa. When men do it, you mean? When me do it?
HO: Yes, when men do it.
PINSKY: My understanding is -- hold on a second. Men -- my understanding, do it either commonly, if there is such a thing as common
with this kind of horror, horror, they impulsively shake a child where they accidentally harm the child or when they plan it out, it is sort of
retribution to the mom and it`s part of (AUDIO GAP) behavior. Is that not true?
HO: Well, that`s definitely part of it, but other types of motivations include things like losing control of your life, not knowing
how to deal with it. Oftentimes, these people do not have mental health histories, do not have acts of violence outside of it.
PINSKY: But they`re narcissistic, aren`t they?
HO: Yes, there`s a lot of rage going on and they blame other people.
PINSKY: Yes, a lot of range. And this guy does not fit this profile for me.
Erica, what do you say?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: I`m not yet, Dr. Drew. Right now, I`m still believing from everything that I read that this was a horrible
accident. Sometimes, the mind compartmentalized and, you know, you can just completely forget about something.
It`s not a direct obviously equivalent but I drove with my new laptop on the top of my car all across New York City. It`s not a child of course
but people make mistakes.
PINSKY: It`s your baby.
AMERICA: It`s still your baby but it doesn`t matter.
Listen, you got to take your emotionality out of it. We`re innocent until proven guilty. What we need to know is what is the family dynamic
with this family? We need to know what the mother says about him as a father.
PINSKY: Yes, we do.
AMERICA: Their relationship together. But until then to go and say that someone is guilty just because you feel bad that a kid died in a car
is not right.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on.
HO: We`re not certainly saying that. What we`re saying is that there are so many things that are not making sense. He drove 10 minutes.
PINSKY: Hold on, let me turn that over to Leeann because I know she`s do everything except take emotionality out of it. She`ll inject
emotionality into this.
And there are three things that bother me, even though I don`t think this guy did it. It doesn`t make sense to me. They`ve taken premeditation
out of this because he`s not being charged with that, but the business of being at Chick-fil-A one mile in the work before arriving at work. Nobody
seen the child or hearing the child in the car and then him checking the car. And then, I forgot my thing.
Leeann, what say you?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: OK. What say I?
The cops have talked to him and what I think is very important is that the people who were at the scene that the cops talked to right after it
happened all said something was very strange. He was acting strangely. One guy said I think he was acting. It wasn`t as if his son had just died.
PINSKY: Yes, how can you possibly know what that would feel like? I don`t know what somebody would look like like that.
TWEEDEN: Two, people said he said my son is choking. The kid had rigor mortis. He had been dead for at least four hours, OK?
Now, third, my other point is three times he was with that child or close in proximity to that child. When he put him in the car that morning,
they went to breakfast at Chick-fil-A and a mile later, he went to work and he forgot about the child? He checked on the child at lunch, too. That`s
three different times he was around that car. How do you forget your child?
PINSKY: Well, Sam, I got to tell you, but for the grace of God, I -- listen, Sunny Hostin, I saw her on Anderson Cooper and she admitted that
she had had done something like this. She had left her child in the car, Sam. It`s possible, she said, thank God the child wasn`t harmed. But the
brightest people can make mistakes.
SCHACHER: Of course, Dr. Drew, but in this case, there are so many red flags and it`s almost a common sense thing. I think about the fact
that he drove, now he claims to the police that when he drive from his office when he got off to the shopping center for 10 minutes that he did
not know that the child was in the car. How do you, when you`re looking in your rearview mirror, there is the child seat in the center and the kid is
22 months, which means the kid`s head is well above that child seat, how did he not see the kid? It doesn`t make sense.
TWEEDEN: And, Dr. Drew, not only that. It`s 80 degrees. Babies smell and the baby had been dead for four hours. You can`t smell that in
the car when you get in it?
PINSKY: Listen, you guys, this is getting sadder and sadder the more we talk about it in my opinion. It breaks my heart.
TWEEDEN: Mine too.
PINSKY: Imagine the fact. It`s a heartbreaking story, but imagine that perhaps this guy didn`t do this and it was a horrible mistake. Can
you imagine the suffering of this couple? It`s just unthinkable.
And there are people out there supporting the dad. People are making their voices heard on YouTube. You can see the videos, coming up next.
And later, we`ve got a would-be teenage killer who plans to blow up his school. The question we have is, why didn`t the parents know?
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam.
More than 11,000 people signed an online petition asking that the murder charge against Justin Ross Harris be dropped. His supporters are
sharing this YouTube video. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Josh Harris is being wrongly detained without bail. And the hardest moments life can bring, the justice system is
failing him. A horrible accident has happened and the worst has come to pass. He`s a wonderful father who would trade places with his son in a
second.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The two pictures that are in that video just break my heart. That`s the one you just --
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: Now, the Cobb County district attorney`s office has no comment on the video. And our attempt to reach to group that posted it has
not been successful.
Erica and Evy back with me. We`re now joined by Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" on HLN, our own Jane Velez.
Jane, I want to go to you. You`ve been doing a great job covering the story.
I -- you know, they`ve taken away premeditation. I can`t get my head around why somebody would do this? But there are some disturbing aspects
to this story, particularly we now know about the Chick-fil-A incident when he was there five minutes before getting to work.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN: I believe cops know a whole lot more than what they were saying. Remember, one of the police officers at the
beginning of the case said, I`ve been in law enforcement 34 years and what I know about this case shocks my conscience as a police officer, as a
father and a grandfather.
What shocks his conscience so much? It would appear not an accidental death. It appears that`s more than that.
And then we have all of these details going to the surface in describes and drabs. So, we know they`re holding him without bond. Why
are they holding him without bond? That`s not what you do to somebody who has been in an accidental tragedy.
PINSKY: It`s great point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK?
PINSKY: Yes. Tell me more. What else?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, if you lack at what we learned today, we learned that he took his child to the Chick-fil-A and he took the child
from the Chick-fil-A into the car. That`s what it says in the criminal warrant. So, we had to strap the little boy in facing the back seat. And
then she drives a very short distance to work and in that process, he forgets the child is there?
And then, he leaves work at lunch, goes back to the car, he doesn`t smell anything?
Now, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, the famed forensic scientist, told us the child was likely dead by that time because he might only last an hour
in that intense heat of up to 130 degrees.
PINSKY: Yes, no doubt, no doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, there would be decomposition. Wouldn`t he smell something?
PINSKY: Well, listen --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: My panel said they believe that he might have gone there to check to see whether or not the child was, in fact, deceased.
PINSKY: That`s diabolical. I don`t see diabolical.
But, Evy, maybe you do. You tell me.
POUMPOURAS: Look, I have to say this, I do agree with Jane with regards to that she`s saying. Here`s the thing, Dr. Drew, you don`t want
to believe this because this is horrible. If this is true and he did this intentionally, then we`re looking at something on a completely different
level.
However, I agree with Jane in that the fact that if law enforcement is keeping him without bail, that there is a reason. They`re not -- we don`t
know everything. We are not privy to everything. But they have to have a legitimate reason to keep a father who just lost his son, all right? And
put him out there as a number suspect. They wouldn`t do that unless he has something pretty substantial.
PINSKY: Let me ask this, Evy. Is it possible they`re holding him because he`s on suicide watch? Maybe they`re holding him for his own
safety. Is that possible?
POUMPOURAS: No. Not like this.
PINSKY: Evy, no. Jane, no?
POUMPOURAS: You would put him in a mental institution or something like that.
PINSKY: Maybe he`s in a jail mental ward. There are those units associated with incarceration. Jane, no?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, I don`t want to convict this man. He deserves his day in court. And the authorities during their news conference said
today, we don`t want to go over the details of the case because we don`t want to create a situation where he`s unable to get a fair trial. So, they
are really shutting down the information.
But the fact is a lot f just doesn`t make sense. Your own Facebook person just wrote, hey, if he thought he left his kid at day care, why
didn`t he go to the day care after work thinking I left the kid at day care? It doesn`t add up. There were inconsistencies in his story from the
get-go.
PINSKY: I know. That`s the problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The first responders said that.
PINSKY: That`s what`s disturbing.
Sam, I`m overwhelmed by the case. I --
SCHACHER: I know, it`s hard to wrap your head around how anybody could be so vicious. But, Dr. Drew, I think what would be really telling
is when we hear what his colleagues have to say about Justin Harris. How was he acting that day? Was he agitated? Was he acting normal? I think
what they had to say will be really insightful to a trained mind.
PINSKY: I agree. And then the wife is going to tell us what kind of father he was, what their relationship was like.
Erica, I hope you`re having the same trouble I`m having, getting your head around this.
AMERICA: No, of course. Of course. We all want to think that we`ll go to the ends of the earth to protect our children. But of course, there
are bad seeds or mental illness or wherever it is, and we just don`t know yet.
I completely agree with everyone on the panel that a lot of things don`t make sense and they`re not adding up. But I think that when the
evidence comes out and he gets a thorough cycle evaluation and you get in all the input --
PINSKY: You`re being so reasonable, Erica. Reasonable. This is a highly emotional story and a highly emotional case.
AMERICA: But it is possible.
SCHACHER: I don`t buy it.
AMERICA: It`s possible for a parent to kill their child. It is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL : I pray it was an accident. Nothing would make me feel better than to know that somebody is incapable of this. I don`t want
to believe that human beings are capable of something like that.
PINSKY: Well, I want to show you guys something. After the break we have had a ton of activity on our Facebook page. Parents, other parents,
I`ll tell you what, it could have been me. Other parents confessing they too have almost left their kids for extended periods in the car. We have a
series of stories from our Facebook post. I`ll share them with you.
And then later, a teen reveals plans to kill his family and fellow students and then die in a shootout with the police. This one, this one
averted. Thank God.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What or who killed the little boy one week ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harris claims he forgot to drop his son off at day care but the warrant says he returned to put something inside the car at
lunchtime implying he knew or should have known that his son was there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This whole story works if you believe this guy honestly didn`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it is impossible for this to have been intentional, especially from the father`s reaction. You could feel his
sorrow and his hurt.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Back with Sam, Evy, Leeann and Vanessa. And of course, we`re talking about this father charged with
murder, accused of allowing or actively participating in this toddler`s death, dying in a sweltering hot car, dying of hyperthermia. You can join
our conversation by tweeting us @drdrewhln. We`ll share your tweets in just a second. Now, this next segment started because I -- when this story first
broke I said, oh my God, this could have been any father. You could make a stupid mistake. We`re kind of screwballs men. Not saying -- not diminishing
our roles as father but we could make a mistake. We could blink. And you know, I can just see how this could happen. I can`t see how it could be
meditated, premeditated rather. And thousands of you out there have been showing their support for Justin Harris -- Justin Ross Harris on change.org
and they`ve been giving some insight into this personality. But I want to get in to immediately is, what people have been sharing with us about their
experience and having left children in cars or in similar circumstances, parents confessing their own mistakes. Now, I`m going to paraphrase some of
these stories. These were shared on change.org. Here`s Bradford, he wrote, I`m a loving father and an imperfect human being. I had my daughter in the
back seat on the way to the pool. I drove halfway to my office before she spoke up and asked where are going, dad. He didn`t know -- forgot she was
in the car if you having just put her in there. Then I`ve got Sarah who says, my husband forgot that our son was in the car because he took a new
route to day care. My son was in the truck for hours while people had lunch in the vehicle next to him. Nobody noticed the crying child. Leeann, does
that persuade you at all that this kind of accident could happen?
LEEANN TWEEDEN: No. Look, I`ve heard many stories that I know -- I`ve known of many stories, doctors, lawyers, regular people, educated people
have left their children in cars. And what I will say to this, being a new mom myself too of a 10 months old. I mean, I`m so neurotic about anytime my
child gets in the car but I know I can make a mistake. And you know what they say, I haven`t had the chance to where I`ve had to drop him off at day
care or anything yet. So, I`m not at that point. But everything that I`ve read on any of these parents` websites is, do something like this, put
something that you always take out of your car, your purse, your wallet, your briefcase, put it in the backseat so you never forget.
PINSKY: Leeann, so you -- do you -- Vanessa, that`s what, Leeann, is admitting on parents sites they`re saying, this is such a potential that
you better put something like your computer or your purse, or something in the back seat so you don`t forget your child.
VANESSA BARNETT: But we can`t -- we can`t blame Monday morning or quarterback here. We have to look at where we are right now and we have to
be very cautious about crucifying this man who is grieving.
PINSKY: Right. Yes. Thank you.
BARNETT: It hurts my heart to think that anybody could do this to a child. And I know there are evil people out there, but look, we`re saying
that there are inconsistencies are, oh, you`ve acting strange. None of us know how we would act if we had to open a back door.
TWEEDEN: Police know more than we do.
BARNETT: But the police don`t know how you act when you open your door and your child is dead. We need to take a minute and just pause before we
say that this man has killed his child. He is hurting and I hurt for him because I know as a mother, Leeann, I`m a mother, too, and I know there
have been times where I`ve made a mistake. I don`t know what could have happened to my daughter, and just because it was (inaudible) and it was
five minutes away. I know this week has been crazy for me at work, and you get into a mind-set. You leave that parking lot and you`re like work, work,
work.
TWEEDEN: The cops know something we don`t.
BARNETT: What if.
TWEEDEN: In the very moment.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: They know more than we do.
PINSKY: Let me put a tweet up that`s from Lori. She was calling me out on even in anyway thinking that this guy was other than a cold blooded
killer. Here it is. This man is so guilty you can`t be that blinded by emotion. Absolutely diabolical and, Evy, that`s more -- your feeling about
this situation?
EVY POUMPOURAS: Look, I do understand what, Vanessa, is saying and I do agree with, Vanessa, too. Because I do agree, we don`t know for sure.
However, for law enforcement to keep him, that`s what`s really kind of giving me that inclination just understanding from the law enforcement
perspective, they don`t do something like that unless they have something on the person. And I`ve also interviewed people who have hurt their
children. I`ve sat in the room with those people. I`ve done interrogations. Those people exist. So, I am emotional. I do not like this. This turns my
stomach. However, from the investigative perspective, from the logical perspective, this does happen. I`m sorry. I wish it didn`t but it does.
PINSKY: OK. All right, Sam, what are your thoughts?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: No. I agree with you 100 percent. I wish to God that this was an accident but it doesn`t add up and
I don`t think this police would be this bold if they didn`t think that this was homicide.
PINSKY: Here`s the deal. Everybody, hug your children. Love your children, tell them you love them. If they are listening to these sorts of
stories, do not let them think for a second that this thing is -- this kind of thing can happen to them. Let them know you`re going to keep them safe.
You`re there for them. This is television. We don`t let these stories bleed into their children`s psyches. Hopefully, this will be cautionary tale for
the rest of us. But for the grace of God, there goes I, this does not happen to most of us. This happened to this guy. It doesn`t fit any profile
that I know that would make sense in terms of this having been murder, but this man did participate in this child`s demise and he will have to pay a
price, no matter what, whether or not it was premeditated or somehow an active demise. I choke on the words. I can`t even say it, but the facts
will come out.
Next up, we`re going to talk about another parents story. I want you to stay with us, because this one thankfully turned out OK. We`ve been
covering way too many stories about kids with guns acting out on their peers. This looks like an obvious sign of and impending trouble. They
seemed to miss these Youtube videos, his parents. But we`ll tell you what ultimately did go down. Later, new photos of the survivor of the slenderman
attack. We`ll tear from their family after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in Minnesota just prevented what could have been the next school massacre.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 17-year-old is accused of plotting to murder his parents and then bomb the Waseca Junior Senior High School.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a peek into a very, very dark mind.
JOHN LADUE: I didn`t have plans of living past that day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In an interview with police, the 17-year-old John LaDue tells investigators he wanted to die and he was determined to bring
several others, even his family with him.
LADUE: I wanted to like get taken down by the S.W.A.T. just to show that I wasn`t a wimp.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is calm as he was apparently honest, detailing step by step his plans to set out bombs in the hallways inside his high
school in Waseca.
LADUE: Then my plans were to enter and throw Molotov cocktails and pipe bombs and destroy everyone and when S.W.A.T. comes, I would destroy
myself.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Judy and Leeann. And this has become our most tweeted story of the day. Before John LaDue is arrested, the 17-
year-old posted videos on Youtube. Here there are. He is seen testing bomb materials. His family says they were unaware that these videos existed. He
also had a storage facility where he was renting where he kept his bombs stashed with other weapons. They -- his family had no idea that this kid
has criminal intent. Vanessa, the parents missed a shed full of explosives.
BARNETT: The parents have -- were they just checked out? Did they just not care? I wholeheartedly believe in stalking your child. There are way
too many things they can get into, whether it`s Youtube, whether it`s Instagram, whether it`s Facebook. I -- my cousin, (inaudible) that they put
a phone number on their Instagram page. You have to check everything. There is no excuse -- these parents dropped the ball and thank God that it wasn`t
worse than what it was right now.
PINSKY: During the interviews with police, this teen talked about his disturbance and why he wanted to die. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LADUE: I really wanted to get out of this place and.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is this place so bad?
LADUE: I don`t know. I just don`t really care for it. I was not bullied at all. I don`t think I have ever been bullied in my life. I have
good parents. I live in a good town. I think I`m just really mentally ill and no one has noticed. I`ve been trying to hide it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, I don`t know what mental illness he`s talking about. I hear depression there but I don`t see the usual mental illnesses that make
somebody delusional and psychotic and a murder. This may be evil, this may be psychopathy.
JUDY HO, PH.D: Yes. Thank you, Dr. Drew. I so rarely say on this show that somebody is just inherently evil, but I think here we have an example
of somebody who is. All I hear from that police interview is lack of empathy. There`s absolutely no emotionality. He`s not connected at all to
his parents. In fact he said he was going to kill his parents and sibling just to increase the body count. And surprisingly, his father is so
detached and probably completely in denial that he tried to plead for his child to not be tried as adult because he thinks that he won`t be able to
carry out all the things that he documented, which to me is crazy. Like the father, do you know that your son is plotting to kill you right now, and
he`s very serious about it?
PINSKY: And this is not gonna change, Sam. It`s not like, oh, he`ll wake up and snap out of this. This is how his head works and probably will
the rest of his life.
SCHACHER: So chilling, and he also seems so narcissistic, because of the very reason that he -- all he cares about in that interview to police,
is that he wants notoriety. That`s what he wanted, and Dr. Drew, this is an example of poor parenting. Aside from this storage unit full of explosives
and ammunition, check what your kids with going online and social media. It is a window to their mind-set and their interests. And the parents even the
told police my kid was online every night late searching. They said, oh, did you know what your kid was search in. No. They had no idea.
PINSKY: Leeann, I`ll give you the last word, because I`m serving it up to you, here you are. Finally, I`m going to give you somebody who we agree
is evil. This is evil my dear. You have at it.
TWEEDEN: Thank you. You have all come to my side. This kid is evil, he`s narcissistic. And you know what really struck me, Dr. Drew, is when he
was talking to the police and he said, you know, I wasn`t bullied, nobody really even paid attention to me. I think that was a tell-tale sign. He
wanted attention. Nobody would even bully him because they didn`t care about him. And I think that bugged him so much that he was going to do
something. And then he`s like, you know what, S.W.A.T. is going to have to take me down, and I`m gonna be a big guy, and they`re going to have to
shoot me and kill me. I`m going out in fashion. He was sick.
PINSKY: And he -- we`re going to hear in just a second how he compares himself to other recent mass killers. You`ll hear his chilling words.
Before we go to break I want to remind everyone, Sam, has brought up something very important here, which is parents, check out your kids`
social media and what they`re doing on the computer. It is a great tool, a window as she said into what-who your child is, how they`re perceived by
their peers and what they`re up to. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a chilling interview with investigators, 17- year-old John LaDue is revealing why he wanted to kill himself, his family and as many victims as possible at his high school in Minnesota. Yet it`s
those good parents and his older sister LaDue allegedly wanted to murder.
LADUE: They did nothing wrong. I just want as many victims as possible.
(END AUDIO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Sam, Judy and Vanessa. Seventeen year old John LaDue also told the investigators he did not want to be compared to other
school shooters. Take a listen why.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LADUE: I didn`t want to prove that I was a wuss like all of the other recent shooters, like Adam Lanza who shot himself. I wanted to like get
taken down by the S.W.A.T. just to show that I wasn`t a wimp, and not like willing to fight with equal force.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: He goes on, Sam. He reportedly believed it was more honorable to kill young people his own age. He told investigators, quote, I didn`t
want to be known as a guy who would go to a place with a bunch of kindergartners. Evy, man, this guy, this is as bad as it gets.
POUMPOURAS: This is as bad as it gets. This is someone that can`t be rehabilitated. There`s an issue -- there`s a true disconnect. You hear it
in the way he speaks, he`s acted, he doesn`t care for others lives, and there`s a bit of narcissism there, anti-social disorder. This is someone
who -- this is a long-term problem.
PINSKY: Vanessa.
BARNETT: I know he`s evil, I know it`s narcissistic but I feel like he almost wanted to get caught before he did it because he wanted to live in
the infamous notoriety of being the guy who almost did this. I almost think he didn`t want to go through with it and actually wanted to live in this
moment.
PINSKY: That`s what I actually thinking more of him than I think. Sam, what do you say?
SCHACHER: I don`t think so at all. I mean, it`s just by chance in luck that this bystander saw, peeked inside what this kid was doing with this
storage unit, and without that, I think we would have a lot of dead children right now.
PINSKY: And, Judy, we`re trying to get people to understand the difference between mental illness and this sort of deep character problem
where the brain isn`t working right. His character is disturbed. And fundamental in that is that inability to understand emotions or that other
people exist to him.
HO: That`s right. So, this is somebody who is not teachable, Dr. Drew. When somebody has a mental illness, they can recover from it. It takes hard
work, but you can recover with somebody like this, they are not teachable, they`re not changeable. The best place for him unfortunately is behind
bars.
PINSKY: It is a brain disturbance. It is a disturbance, people have localized it. I`m pulling my brain again. It`s over in this part of the
brain here, generally thinking, and it is not something as, Judy, said that is treatable. This is a guy I would expect to put a child, if he had a
child, in a car to cook merely if the child was mouthing off or just a little bit difficult to deal with. That`s this guy. I don`t see any
evidence that the guy who did have a child that cooked is this person. I just don`t see it.
Next up, I`ve got slenderman -- slenderman attack update. You`re going to hear from the victim`s family. And don`t forget, just a few minutes you
can join us on Facebook. We`ll be hosting our aftershow -- our after buzz with some of my panellists and you`ll be there too with your posts. We`ll
respond to them. Go to Facebook, like us and we`ll see you there after the show tonight. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve year old girls accused of trying to murder a friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One suspect held the victim down while the other suspect stabbed her 19 times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those wound pierced the hart, pancreas and stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Days after a 12-year-old is stabbed and left fighting for her life, an outpouring of support.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The community is standing behind this little girl in that we want her to get better, get stronger and face her fears.
Prayers have also been sent to the families requesting letters of lightening love on purple hearts.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Evy, Leeann, Vanessa and Sam. That 12-year-old victim was stabbed by her so-called friends because they wanted to apiece
an evil fictional character know as slenderman. Tonight, the victim is recovering, and her parents for these two photos and a message on Facebook,
it reads quote, together as a family we continue to adjust to our new normal. She`s gregarious, heart and bravely dealing with both the physical
and emotional challenges since the attack. Evy, you are with us when we first report it on this, any new thoughts?
POUMPOURAS: You know, I think that this is powerful that the young girl is coming out, her families are coming out and that they`re showing
almost that they`re overcoming this adversity. And I commend them for that because that`s how this young girl is going the get over this. By coming
out there, and embracing it and speaking out about what happened to her, it`s just really owning it. This was horrible but I`m happy to see this.
PINSKY: And of course, the community, see there -- this video there, there`s an outpouring of support for her. I`ve got Steve Lyons on the
phone. He`s a representative for the victim`s family. Steve, how is this young lady doing?
STEVE LYONS, SLENDERMAN STABBING VICTIM SPOKESPERSON: You know she`s doing well. Like all of us, she has good days and bad days but we`re
adjusting to the new normal, and the new normal is a number of doctor appointments and therapies and whatnot. But it`s also things like 12-year-
old kids should do, like most recently going to a Disney film with her dad. She`s a very brave lit girl.
PINSKY: Is she likely have a complete and full recovery, is that what we`re looking at here?
LYONS: We`re hopeful. And you know, one of the things -- and you just did mention it. You know, part of this healing process, both physically and
emotionally has been the support from around the world. These purple hearts, purple is her favorite color, hearts she loves. She`s gotten them
from almost every continent and almost every country in the world. And I tell you that means -- everyday she goes through these boxes and boxes of
hearts and packages and the financial support that folks are helping with the family, because of the huge medical mounting bills mean a huge deal to
this family and this little girl.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Steve. We appreciate the report. Sam, this is a story that was so upsetting to us, and particularly the one little girl,
that was so deeply in the slenderman that mastermind to this thing. I`m still not over it.
SCHACHER: Yeah, and I still don`t think that they had delusions. I don`t think that they were spoken to by slenderman. If that was the case,
Dr. Drew, first of all, this was pre-meditated for months. And they knew what they did was wrong. They admitted it to the police. They showed very
little remorse, and if they were doing it premeditated, that would mean that they had delusions for months. People would have noticed. No one
noticed because I don`t think they have a mental illness.
PINSKY: Well, the one I think might -- you can have a fixed delusion that just sort of certain.
SCHACHER: For months?
PINSKY: Yeah, you can, but it`s not excusing this. This is just what understands how this could happen even. Vanessa, your thoughts.
BARNETT: I like that we`re ending on this story because as evil as these girls are and will probably forever be, this still proves evil
doesn`t win. This girl is recovering. She`s finding out a new norm and they`re hopeful that she`s going to be OK. It`s a -- I know, it`s an ugly
story but that part of it warms my heart.
PINSKY: Well, of course, you used Leeann`s hashtag evil.
TWEEDEN: Exactly. And you know what, all of us here at Dr. Drew are sending our love and like to this girl. And you know what? This is the
power of social media. How wonderful is it that this 12-year-old girl can sit in her house and have love and support sent to her from all over the
world only because she`s online and everybody knows the story.
PINSKY: Yes. And then today -- tonight we`ve had three different stories, with three different sort of -- think about it, learn from it. The
one dad, if he really did this and cooked his child, there`s gonna have to be some evil there as well. One of these child, delusional preoccupation,
but making her behave in an evil way and then one young man who is severely evil. Join us on Facebook will be on the after-show. We`ll be up this
evening. Forensic Files begins after. I`m going to bring a couple of panels back here with me for that aftershow and now you can watch Forensic Files.
END
