Return to Transcripts main page

Dr. Drew

White Woman Who Claims She Identifies As Black, And What She Says She Does To Alter Her Appearance; The Prison Worker Accused Of Helping Two Killers Escape Had Sex With At Least One Of Them; Rachel Dolezal, White By Birth, Black By Identity, Granted Her First Interview Since Her Parents Ousted Her Last Week

Aired June 16, 2015 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:00:13) DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Hear from the white woman who claims she identifies as black, and what she says she does to alter her

appearance. Plus the prison worker accused of helping two killers escape had sex with at least one of them. I could say probably both. And, it all

starts right now at the "Top of the Feed."

Rachel Dolezal, white by birth, black by identity, granted her first interview since her parents ousted her last week. She was asked by Matt

Lauer if that came as a surprise. Listen to this from NBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHEL DOLEZAL, IDENTIFIED HERSELF AS BLACK: The timing was completely unexpected. As to the second question, I did feel that at some

point, I would need to address the complexity of my identity.

MATT LAUER, NBC HOST OF "THE TODAY SHOW": Are you an African-American woman?

DOLEZAL: I identify as black. I actually was talking to one of my sons yesterday. And, he said, "Mom, racially you are human and culturally

you are black." My life has been one of survival. And, the decisions that I have made along the way, including my identification, has been to

survive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining me is "Sam Schacher" from Pop Trigger on Hulu.com; Rolonda Watts, host of "Sundays with Rolondo" Podcast, and my Michael

Catherwood, my "Love Line aand KABC radio co-host.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

PINSKY: Mike, first of all, she is having to survive?

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST OF "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO: Yes, what is that? Are not all humans? Like, that is kind of our base directive.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: She is surviving grew up in the main streets of Western Montana. I mean what? -- what? -- what happened here? -- We do not know.

(LAUGHING)

ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA" PODCAST: I think she used her blackness to survive when she needed it.

PINSKY: Why did she -- Oh. Like to get into Howard Univsersity? She used it then? You guys are --

WATTS: Or she has stayed white when she needed to survive the lawsuit.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER. HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: That is exactly right, Dr. Drew. Here is the thing. First of all, you brought up Montana.

That also her growing up in a tepee blatant life. Her saying that she grew up at some point in South Africa and was beat up as a kid for her skin

color, blatant lie.

Even though that her family at one point lived there, she never did. So, not only has she lied about her race, but she has lied about her entire

upbringing. And, I think that is why people are so up in arms about it.

PINSKY: So, it is not living as black identifying as black, because she is --

SCHACHER: She is a liar. She is an opportunist. She identified as white when she had the lawsuit.

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: So, come on!

PINSKY: Now, on NBC, Rachel was asked if she darkens her skin. I promise you, we will talk about how she alters herself. Here is what she

says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: I certainly do not stay out of the sun, you know. And, I also do not -- as some of the critics have said, put on black face as a

performance. I have a huge issue with black face. This is not some freak birth of a nation mockery black face performance. This is on a very real,

connected level how -- I have actually had to go there with the experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, she puts on a black face in order to experience black life, not to be -- I mean come on now. What is she talking about? This is

one of the most -- I felt so bad for Matt Lauer. This is one of the most unsatisfying interviews I have ever seen. I imagine he was sort of at some

contingency where he was prevented from asking follow-up questions, because she blew smoke the whole time, you know, Rolonda?

WATTS: Well, I think if you really press the issue it could be on the experience thing, because she claims she had this experience, even though

she has been black relatively a shorter time than most of us who are black have been --

(LAUGHING)

But she claims that she had to become black because when she adopted her brother as her son, the boy looked at her and said, "You are my real

mother." And, she told Matt Lauer, "I feel as if I had to be black to be his mother." Now the question -- the follow-up question is why do you have

to be black to be his mother?

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

SCHACHER: Thank you.

CATHERWOOD: And, Sandra Bullock is black now, people. She has a black child.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: And, not only that --

WATTS: Angelina Jolie. Brad Pitt.

PINSKY: She is asked later about dads and she has all kinds of meandering rationalizations about dads name because she had a guy she

called dad who is an African-American guy. So, his dad -- but her real dad is --

CATHERWOOD: She has called plenty of guys daddy that are not her real daddy.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: OK, Mike. OK.

PINSKY: But, the point is, I am surprised that you are as worked up about this as you are, because I am hearing from most African-American

women and Rolonda, back me up on this, a certain amount of tolerance for this woman in spite of her manipulations --

SCHACHER: No. I do not have tolerance for her because of the fact she is lying about everything, and she still has yet to own up, to take any

sort of accountability. And, that is what is rubbing people the wrong way.

She has this spin zone when she does this interview. Everything is spun almost as if she is self-righteous, like she is doing a good thing.

No, you are not. No, you are not.

PINSKY: She was asked by Matt about her parents` questioning why she could not do the work she does, the work that she believes, the work that -

- by the way, no one can take away from her, so she has done good work.

SCHACHER: Yes. True.

PINSKY: But why could not she do it as a white person?

(21:05:00) SCHACHER: Thank you.

PINSKY: Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: I really do not see why they are in such a rush to white wash some of the work that I have done, and who I am and how I have

identified. And, this goes back to a very early age with my self- identification with the black experience -- as a very young child.

LAUER: When did it start?

DOLEZAL: I would say about 5 years old.

LAUER: You began identifying yourself as African-American?

DOLEZAL: I was drawing self-portraits with the brown crayon instead of peach crayon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: And, then her parents were asked by -- about this very thing. The parents said, "I do not know what she is talking about."

SCHACHER: Thank you.

PINSKY: Mike.

CATHERWOOD: Here is the thing. Whoever you want to identify with culturally that is your business. It is all good. The problem I have is

that she is saying, "I have identified as black with the black experience since I was 5 years old.

We have seen pictures of her when she was a teenager. She was never that black kid. You know, like I know like my black friends in a white

neighborhood, their experience is far different than that teenager.

PINSKY: And, that is why I am surprised African-American women are not a little more upset with her.

WATTS: Well, first of all, African-American women are very, very forgiving. And, I would say, first of all, she does look black. She looks

like people in my family to be honest with you. And, she has done some good work for the cause, of advancing people.

So, give her a little leeway. Bur this is a situation where I think African-American women would say, "Come here, sister, sit down." Now, you

can do whatever you want, but you are going to be held accountable on this.

And, let me tell you what it is really like to be a sister. And, I bet you by golly wow! When she walked out of that house looking the

African-American sister that she is looking like, she was treated very differently than if she walked out looking like the little blond girl that

she looked like.

I bet you by golly wow, there is a piece of her that is telling a truth in that. That being black is also about an experience. It is about

how you are treated when you walk into a restaurant, how you are treated when you go into a country club.

It is about how you are treated by this American system that is set up against you. It is a painful existence. And ,so I would say, "My

sister, and I am going to call you my sister as I call you my sister and any other woman my sister."

SCHACHER: Thank you.

WATTS: We got you. If you are having an identity crisis and you need some sisterhood, we got you. But, you are going to have to really get deep

and roll up your sleeves. And understand what this experience is about in America. And, I love that we are having this conversation, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes. I do, too.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

WATTS: Because we can open up and talk about this.

PINSKY: Listen, Mike and I on the radio tonight, we started meandering into mixed races and things. What are we even talking about?

We had one woman call. Remember, she was Mexican and African descent.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

PINSKY: And, she was like, "Well, I kind of shift back and forth." And, she understands why somebody would do that, because she is kind of

fluid. But the point is, we are becoming -- everybody is becoming a mixed race.

SCHACHER: Although --

CATHERWOOD: No. But, I think she is -- it is like when you look at Twitter --

PINSKY: Although, I got to stop, Mike. I just made a micro- aggression by saying that.

(LAUGHING)

WATTS: Well, listen, 50 percent of the couples in America are multiracial.

PINSKY: I know.

WATTS: We can celebrate to that.

PINSKY: But, to say that is just going to become sort of a melting pot, is considered micro-aggression, sorry faculty at UCLA, who now saying

you cannot ever say that. I am just saying.

SCHACHER: But, here is the thing --

WATTS: But, when you talk about identity, let us not forget about the tests done on little black girls way back in the day and repeated in

the same data came out. That little black girls were relating more with being white and playing with white dolls and picking up the pink crayon as

opposed to the brown. The only difference is, they did not have the luxury of walking out with their brown skin and pretending to be white.

CATHERWOOD: That is exactly the point that I think needs to be pointed out. It is kind of like looking at Twitter. If you are going to

look at all the comments where people praise you, you also got to look at the ones who where -- you know, it hurts your feelings.

And, the same thing is like, if she wants to say I identify as an African-American. I identify as black. That is great. But, she is never

had to walk into a store and have the owner come out from the back and give her extra special attention, you know, as opposed to a white customer.

SCHACHER: Right.

CATHERWOOD: Because it is like, I do not want to score liberal brownie points or anything, but that is a reality. And, that is a part of

the black experience that she probably never had at least as a teenager when she looked like the whitest girl ever.

(LAUGHING)

SCHACHER: Right. But we are also glossing over the issue that this comes off very strategic. She not only said that she was part African-

American, she also said she was part Navajo and all these things to make her the perfect candidate.

PINSKY: Yes. I say, yes.

SCHACHER: Which was all false. All of it was. The Navajo part was false too.

PINSKY: Although, Rolondaa,s she is creating this great conversation that none of us should shrink from. I think the fact is something is

really not right with this young lady, but I got to go to break.

WATTS: OK.

PINSKY: I got a letter she wrote to herself, claiming it is hate mail and I have never seen --

CATHERWOOD: (LAUGHING)

PINSKY: No. I have never seen something like this except from a psych patient.

WATTS: Well, maybe the --

PINSKY: No. It is no that easy, but we will hear more about this and more about racial views on race after we get back.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:09:50) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: With regard to the noose on the rafters that turned out not to be a noose later on?

DOLEZAL: I do not know that has been concluded.

UNIDETIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Actually, a rope that was used to hang up -- a man`s -- a fellow`s deer -- whenever he killed deer. Are you

African-American?

DOLEZAL: I do not -- I do not understand the question. I did tell you that, yes, that is my dad. And, he was unable to come in January.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE INERVIEWER: Are your parents -- are they white?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL`S MOTHER: We hope that she will come to terms with truth and reality, and she will make an apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I felt duped again by her by coming out and not giving us anything and not really answering anything directly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Yes, Rachel Dolezal attempted to explain what NBC`s Matt Lauer called deception. She said it was the media that first had

identified her as quote, Trans-racial then biracial then black." Take a look at this smoke screen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: And then the next article when they were actually burglaries, nooses, et cetera, was this is happening to a black woman, and

I never corrected that.

(21:15:06) LAUER: Why did not you correct it? You knew it was not true.

DOLEZAL: Well, because it is more complex than, you know, being true or false in that particular instance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: No. Back with Sam, Rolanda, Mike and in the audience, I have Emily Roberts, psychotherapist; author of "Express Yourself: A Teen

Girl`s Guide To Speaking Up And Being Who You Are." Emily, you have read this thing. You have a copy of it -- I believe you do have.

EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, I do.

PINSKY: She sent this to herself and then complained and report to the cops that she was receiving hate mail. I do not see how -- have you

read this?

WATTS: No.

PINSKY: I do not see how somebody can manufacture something like this. I have only seen this kind of language from patients. Do you agree

with me on that?

ROBERTS: Yeah. So, allegedly she calls herself -- allegedly -- a psychopath and that she is very dangerous. This is the thing that I have a

problem with. If she is lying about these things, what else is going on up here? What else is she capable of? Is she dangerous? A lot of times as

we see, there is a lot more going on up here.

PINSY: But I would worry that she was dangerous to herself. She has done good work for other people. Listen, it makes me think about not only

she may have a racial identity problem, she may have a dissociative identity problem generally or psychiatric problem --

ROBERTS: Or personality disorder.

PINSKY: -- or a personality disorder or something. But, listen, even that does not take away from her good works, right? Nor does it take away

from the fact we are having this conversation about important issues. I want to get our audience involved as fast as possible here, but Sam go

ahead.

SCHACHER: I just wish that she would have championed her cause and been an advocate for human rights as a white woman. I am not a lesbian,

but I am a huge advocate for the LGBT community. I think that speaks so much more volumes.

CATHERWOOD: I also think like -- and I wondered, you know, asking the mental health professionals, is there any way that she maybe wrote this

letter to herself as an exercise in therapy? I know I have been down that road.

(CROSSALK)

ROBERTS: This is a letter that was in -- allegedly that she put in her own mailbox, so they are saying, found in her mailbox. This is

something that is -- this is a disorder.

WATTS: She got to have some psychological issue.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: You though too?

WATTS: You are trying to find your identity.

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: And most especially stability in our lives particularly, mental health comes from having a foundation, an identity.

PINSKY: And, by the way --

ROBERTS: Bu I do not put it to myself. I do not put I in the mail. That is my journal.

PINSKY: Yes. Right. And this is not a --

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: I put it in my diary.

CATHERWOOD: She has beautiful penmanship.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: But it is allegedly. But, the fact is that, you know, she said that she has been trying to survive. What? Is she a trauma survivor?

What is going on here?

SCHACHER: She is clearly lying about the tepee. Why lie about a tepee? Why lie about South Africa? It is lie after lie after lie.

PINSKY: Sam cannot stand the tepee thing.

SCHACHER: I cannot.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: So, I mean, I understand wanting to help people. I understand wanting to learn things about other cultures and

stuff like that. As a black woman, it would have meant more to me for her to identify herself as a white woman and that she wants to help black

equality, and wants to help.

PINSKY: But, do you feel like Rolonda does, that if she wants to come on in, whatever she wants to be, you are welcoming her in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Exactly. It would have been better for her to be herself and still stand up for us than to now be looked at as a

liar.

WATTS: We understand why people are attracted to the African-American or black culture. It is a beautiful culture. Beautiful music, beautiful

history. So we understand that. And we say please, come on. Please. We are finding respect in our culture. We love it. But that does not mean

that you have to turn your back on yourself and your own to identify with us. We are all --

PINSKY: It is also a lie.

CATHERWOOD: As we get older we all realize regardless of the situation, there is a lot of value to authenticity. When you see someone

with that dissonance, it is unsettling.

PINSKY: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: I think that so many people are trying to change themselves to become something that they are not to reap the

benefits of being that thing. I do not understand why we cannot just accept each other just as human beings.

WATTS: The only race, the human race.

(AUDIENE APLAUDING)

PINSKY: That is what this woman`s son has said to her about herself. And, Rolonda, you sent us pictures of your dad.

WATTS: Yes. You know, I keep -- I was showing -- I sent Dr. Drew -- I sent you a picture of my dad, just to prove a point.

PINSKY: He was chairman of Fine Arts Department.

WATTS: Yes, my father is Roland Watts was a fine artist, chairman of the fine Arts Department at Winston-Salem State University. Head of the

Kappa Alpha Psy fraternity down there. And, if you look at him he looks Jewish.

PINSKY: He looks a little bit like Michael`s grandfather, too.

CATHERWOOD: Really? My Mexican grandpa?

PINSKY: Yeah.

CATHERWOOD: Kind of.

WATS: There are people to this day who still think my dad was white. But my dad was a black man. Now, he had a brother who passed as white.

And had -- married a white woman, had five white children. And, it was not until he died that they came looking for us, the black side of the family.

I have cousins. We share the same grandmother, but they are white people.

PINSKY: They live as white people.

(21:20:00) WATTS: And, I am black -- And they live as white people. Now, are they passing? Well, maybe, maybe not. Their mother is white. Why

cannot they be white? Their dad is black. Why cannot they choose to be black? So, as we mix more in our races --

PINSKY: Yes.

WATTS: we are going to have this issue more, folks.

PINSKY: Absoluely.

WATTS: Who says I cannot be part of the Cherokee in me? What is wrong with that? Who says I cannot be me.

PINSKY: But there is a movement, and it is disintegrating us a bit, to say that it is aggressive. They call it microaggressions to bring us

together as a mixture.

CATHERWOOD: That is nonsense. I think one of the greatest thing about this country. You travel to Italy, you travel to France. You say,

"Oh, well, what nationality are you? " You say, "I am Swedish." They assume you are from Sweden you are Swedish. If anybody asks you in western

Europe, where you are from? I am American. What is your ethnicity?

WATTS: Righ.

CATHERWOOD: There is no other place in the world that has that going for it. We truly are. Whether we pull it off well or not a melting pot.

I think this should be celebrated, not ignored. [

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: I think she essentially stole jobs from a lot of black people that actually applied for these positions, president

of the NAACP.

PINSKY: Maybe some resources, too.

UNIDENIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Well, a President of the NAACP and professor of African-American studies and I think she should be held

accountable for that.

PINSKY: So that is fraud , Right? That is fraud she committed then.

ROBERTS: Yes, basically.

PINSKY: So again, we talked to an attorney today. Again we have been discussing this mike and I for a couple of days. The attorneys were saying

that fraud -- there is not much really you can get here. No one is going to accuse her or fraud. Probably going to get away but that stuff. It is

opportunism as you said.

SCHACHER: Right. If she chose which race she wanted to identify with that suited her for that present time. Before when she was five years old

she identified as African-American according to her in this interview. Then when she went on to college she identified as a white well wit --

woman with that lawsuit.

PINSKY: Let us hear what she had to say about the lawsuit against her Howard University alma mate mater.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: Because my scholarship positions and teaching position as well were that other people need opportunities. You probably have white

relatives that can afford to help you with your tuition. And I thought that was an injustice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: You know what? I am going to just wrap this up. We have got to get on the next topic. But, I will tell you what -- it makes me

think about the fact that I keep saying that we need to get together.

Rolanda, you are saying we need to get together, everybody. The fact we are so fragmented and so coming apart that people are becoming confused

about what even they are and what they should sign up for and who they belong to.

WATTS: Dr. Mya Angelou would always say there is nothing human that can be indifferent to me. We all have the same wants. We want our bellies

full, or children fed. We want our nation that is strong. All of us want the same dreams. Why do not we find the least common denominators and

start there?

PINSKY: I completely agree. Let us get together not worry about what is making us different. Celebrate that, too. But we have forgotten about

the get together part. That is the part that really Let us say this woman does have a mental health problem. Guess what. The more vulnerable ones

get even more confused and have more difficulty.

CAHERWOOD: I have wanted to identify as a black man my whole life until I see my penis.

PINSKY: There you go. Good thing this is a live show.

Next up, the woman accused of helping two killers break out of prison and a sexual relationship with each, at least one possibly both of them.

We are back after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(21:23:56) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(21:27:4) UNIDENIFIED FEFMALE REPORTER: A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation says Joyce Mitchell was indeed having a

sexual relationship with Richard Matt. And before that, she was investigated for having an inappropriate relationship with david sweat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I honestly do not think that she was plan A. There is been a lot of people that said she did not show up and got

cold feet. They probably went to a plan B. I think she was plan B.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When you fall victim to an inmate manipulator conman or whatever, your world changed. You are not in your

world anymore outside the prison walls where things are on a moral plane, you do the right thing, you pay your bills, you are faithful to your family

and so forth. You are in the inmates` world. When you go into the inmates` world, anything can happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Time for what we call what the -- the story that might be hard to believe unless it were true. Joyce Mitchell got her first visit in

jail today from her husband Lyle. Here is what her lawyers say they talked about.

I have not talked to her today. But as of late yesterday she was pretty distraught.

Elaborate on that. She had a visitor today, her husband, correct?

That is correct.

Can you explain how that visit went?

I do not know. I do not know. I do not know. All I know is that he said that he is standing by her. So that is what he told me when I spoke

to him.

All right, rolanda, standing by this woman who at best cheated, at worst plotted to kill him.

I know she was distraught because he walked in there and said what the -- this is the craziest story. You cannot make this stuff up. But it is

either the girl must have some platinum moves, doctor drew, or she is easily manipulated by people who are behind bars because they are

manipulators. And there are these women. We hear about it after all these murders go to jail, all these women who write them love letters and want to

marry them.

What is wrong with you women?

We like bad boys? Is that what it is?

Bad boys who are contained in a jar like prison.

At least you know where their not like on tinder.

You ever attracted to a guy on prison?

Well um -- what are we learning today? I used to serve on the raleigh lifers group. A jar like prison.

At least you know where their not like on tinder.

You ever attracted to a guy on prison?

Well um -- what are we learning today? I used to serve on the raleigh lifers group. They are not bad guys just guys who made bad decisions.

What?

I did not have an affair with a guy in prison.

(21:30:00)SCHACHER: These two were vicious murders. They had horrible histories.

CATHERWOOD:s Imagine how the husband feels. I am trying to put myself in his shoes. You know your wife is cheating on you. You hope it

is like some rich dude with like abs and the whole deal.

At least you could like justify anytime your own head. Look what he is got going on. You are like my wife is cheating on me with a guy who

killed cops and the other guy who dismembers people. They are going air tight on my wife.

SCHACHER: Here is what pisses me off. I have seen all over twitter that people are sympathetic towards her. They call her a victim because

she was manipulated. I have no sympathy for her.

Second of all if this was a man everybody would want to vilify that person. If these two end up killing anybody, hurting anybody the blood is

on her. She helped them get out.

PINSKY: Emily, any sympathy for this woman?

ROBERTS: Husband?

PINSKY: No. I feel really bad for her husband.

PINSKY: Why does he stay?

He is scared. I do not know. O he phone, I have Katie Brown, She married an inmate, who had been convicted of second-degree murder. He is

serving 27 o life at Clinton correctional facility, the very facility these guys escaped from.

Now I almost want Rolonda to interview you because she seems to understand why you would choose this guy. But you are attractive. You

have a master is degree in a mental health subject. Why this guy? Why somebody in prison?

KAIE BROWN, MARRIED AN INMAE IN CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Dr. Drew, I hear you. Hello, everybody. Good evening. I did not wake up one

morning and say, hey, let me go marry a man in prison. That is not what happened. People fall in love in the strangest -- in the strangest places.

And mine happened to be behind bars. And I do not expect society to understand me because at the end of the day, nobody pays my bills, nobody

has to walk in my shoes. This is my --

PINSKY: I understand. Do you feel like Rolonda does that sometimes these guys just made some bad choices? I cannot say it with a strange

face.

BROWN: Exactly. Yes. Some guys do make bad choices. And it is insane how society are so quick to judge.

PINSKY: No, no, I am not judge k. Just I get to see these people in a therapeutic setting. When they get open and honest what they are up to

it is not pretty. What kind of women are in your support group, Katie?

BROWN: We have a variety of women. We have women of all types. We have women that have doctorate degrees. We have women that have Geds. But

that is not the case. The issue is is that I am speaking for my support group. A lot of women are ashamed of their relationship because of the

people that judge them.

PINSKY: OK.

BROWN: Honestly I feel honestly if these two men had a wife like me and my support group, they would have never escaped. Because these men

that are behind bars do not have support. These men have support and love and loved ones that support them, they would think about that.

CAHERWOOD: You are right. People do deserve redemption. Some people make bad choices and are not bad people. These guys are vicious, vicious

murders. One guy dismembered his boss because he fired him. The other guy is a cop killer. So this is not bad decisions. These are brutal brutal

people.

And I think there is a difference. Not every guy behind bars deserves to be vilified in that way. I do not know what crimes your

husband committed. But these guys do not deserve any sympathy and support.

SCHACHER: And, not every woman is like you or some of the women in your support group. This woman does she not have any boundaries? She is

married, she is an employee.

PINSY: It is her job.

SCHACHER: No only having sexual relations with one inmate. Not only having sexual relations with one inmate, the other one was deemed

inappropriate whatever that means. They had to move the inmate away from her. So I mean, there obviously was red flags there if they moved an

inmate away from her. Why was not she fired?

PINSKY: Good question.

WATTS: Different societies in this country. There is the inside and then there is the outside.

PINSKY: Justin Ross is comedy prison who went into prison and roasted guys in prison. I recommend it. Really opened up to the exact factor you

are talking about here. Some guys in on drug charges, some of the guys are really there because --

(21:34:52) CATHERWOOD: I am being serious. Why are the guys who kill cops and dismember bodies, why are they even allowed near female guards?

SCHACHER: This was not a guard.

CATHERWOOD: Like there should be like a nonwoman area.

WATTS: It happened in a sewing room I understand. I heard somebody on TV say today you reap what you sow.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Next up, this is no the first time in prison hat were accused to having sex with an inmate. A former officer is here with what

he know in th scene, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No one is immune from inmate manipulation.

ROBERTS: She was manipulated very easily by them. Was she threatened? No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She was lonely. They took advantage of her. She is no mastermind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SEAKER: They have 24/7 to think about the ways to fool people. That is true. They have nothing but time to plot these

things. That is true.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Look, it was a perfect storm. They sought her out, targeted her and knew they would get what they wanted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(21:40:00) PINSKY: Can prison workers be trained to be immune to manipulation or could just anyone be duped? I am back with Sam, Rolonda

and Mike. Joining me by Skype, John Carrdillo, a former NYPD officer, host of the "John Cardillo Show" on WJNO. So tell us have you seen this kind

of thing before? I imagine so.

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICERE: Yeah. Yeah. We used to see these in Rikers Island at the jail a little different than a prison where

guards especially would fall for these inmates and would actually smuggle in uniforms and get duplicates made of their shields.

In a few cases, these guys just drove right out. Someone would come get them and they could drive right out through the gate. You had a

lackadaisical guard at the gate who did not check I.D.`s.

PINSKY: Once they left the gates, I imagine these guys left these women cold.

CARDILLO: Yeah. Let us just say that -- how do I say it delicately? Most of the women helping these guys you would not be swiping right on

tinder for

[ laughter ]

PINSKY: Let me ask you this without being harsh. Is there a certain character or personality that is attracted to this kind of work?

CARDILLO: Well, you know, it is typically a civil service job. Even on the law enforcement side of corrections, standards, background

screening, academies tend to be far less than that of an actual police officer.

PINSKY: And, my understanding. Let me interrupt you to say my understanding is that you have witnessed more corruption between and

amongst the males, in fact, than the females participating.

CARDILLO: Yeah. We would often arrest male correction officers for their involvement with gangs, the drug trade. Because of relationships

that they --

PINSKY: Money. They were looking for money.

CARDILLO: It was about money.

PINSKY: And how come we do not see more of this in female prisons where they manipulate the male guards into sexual relationships for

whatever?

CARDILLO: I think the organized criminal enterprises are more prevalent in the male facilities so they are able tone ties the guards with

money and they have more resources and bodies to co-opt them.

PINSKY: You have a question?

WATTS: And, Dr. Drew, a lot of the women who are behind bars are there because they were manipulated by a guy outside of prison, too.

Driving the getaway car, carrying the drug bag, taking the money.

PINSKY: So, I am going to go back where I was a few minutes ago. What is wrong with you guys? Why do you fall for these idiots?

SCHACHER: You are looking at me?

PINSKY: Maybe so. Maybe you can explain it?

SCHACHER: To be honest with you, if I was that woman and I had known that one dismembered and tortured and held captive his colleague for 27

hours and the other one was a cop killer, I do not --

PINSKY: But he loves kittens. [ laughter ]

SCHACHER: There you go, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Le me get some audience questions. What have you got, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Dr. Drew, esteemed panel and guests, my question is --

PINSKY: Esteemed panel.

SCHACHER: I will take it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: A lot of people or a lot of like the woman who has the support group, they seem very defensive about their

intelligence, seem like it is a knock against their intelligence to fall for these people, these inmates.

PINSKY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE: Who are very manipulative themselves. But is not like Stockholm syndrome involved in this, psychological,

biological --

PINSKY: Absolutely. It is not about intellect at all. That is what manipulations are. People who understand how to work our emotional

systems, our attraction systems, our connections, our love maps. All that stuff is fair game for them. Most people just are not even thinking that

way.

WATTS: All I can say is she got two boyfriends and a husband. And most of us around here just think it is amazing. It is like how did she do

that?

PINSKY: What I am hearing Rolonda say she is carrying a torch for a guy in prison and feels envy toward that woman on the screen right now.

Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: Do you think she might have made a deal with the inmates that she would help them escape and in return they would

kill her husband?

PINSKY: That was alleged at one point. Yes, but she is changed her story multiple times. So let me ask john. What do you think is going on

there? She is wearing a bulletproof vest now.

I have talked to other consultants who may say she knows more, more information that they used to manipulate her and the feds want and she is

at risk for divulging something about somebody that could get her in a lot of trouble.

CARDILLO: Well, yes, Clinton Correctional is a high profile facility. Maximum security. A lot of gangs that work there, we do not know who these

guys were affiliated yet because they have been keeping that intelligence close to the vest.

PINSKY: Right.

CARDILLO: But groups like the aryan brotherhood, et cetera, they will kill you outside as quickly as inside. That is a distinct possibility,

too.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE: You said it is not about intellect. Could it be just about low self-esteem?

PINSKY: I have low self-esteem. I do. I have low self-esteem. Esteem makes me work harder. But I am comfortable in my skin. I would not

let somebody violate my boundaries. It is really about bad boundaries and low self-esteem I could say. A combination of factors.

(21:44:55) ROBERTS: I would also say that just being broad here, but I think a lot of people who make good victims have been victimized before

in the past. Meaning they were the right person. Choose the right person to do that. Something else happened to her early on she was malleable

enough to get the crazy killers --

PINSKY: And, John, these guys know exactly who their targets are. They can sniff it out almost, right?

CARDILLO: You had a sound bite coming back from break who said these inmates focus 24 hours a day on escape and manipulation. That is exactly

right. They have nothing else to do. They identify soft targets and go at them most aggressively.

PINSKY: Mike?

CATHERWOOD: I am just wondering like which one got to her first? And then did he have to motivate the other to get like onboard? He is like you

will not believe it. I am getting laid. Getting some. Really? Who is it? He shows him. Come on. Really? We got to do it dude. You got to be

down for the cause [laughter ]

PINSKY: Well, listen. If nothing else -- all right, man, all right.

SCHACHER: They are encouraging him.

CATHERWOOD: You know they had that conversation. He is like seriously, though, it will be worth it, all right? Just close your eyes.

PINSKY: It is a reminder -- [ applause ] I would like to go somewhere else. It is a reminder you got to be very circumspect about people. Be

very careful. Trust your instincts. If you have a history of being in traumatic relationships or repeatedly going for a certain kind of person,

if things do not work out that is where you get therapy to rebuild those boundaries.

Be very careful, everybody. Some people are chronic criminals, sociopaths, psychopaths. One of the guy is mother has spoken out. He is

been troubled since childhood which suggestion psychopathy. Those people are cunning and there is no telling what they can do with you.

Next up what is an Asperger`s meltdown? I will show you after this.

(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:50:00) PINSKY: Time for a "Click Fix" where my guests share what is on their Instagram, Facebook, Twitter feeds. Sam, you are first.

SCHACHER: OK. So, I have a video that everyone is talking about. Truly a dog is a man is best friend. Over 1 million views so far. Posted

by a woman who has Asperger`s syndrome. She has a service dog named Sampson who also points out when she is hurting herself. So we do have

some video. This is her at the end of a meltdown quote, unquote, what she says.

PINSKY: OK. She is aware that she has these.

SCHACHER: She is aware. She actually started recording at the end of her meltdown. Take a look. It is her and Sampson.

PINSKY: She self-harms.

SCHACHER: Yes.

WATTS: Oh.

SCHACHER: And the dog helps her. I know. I know. Oh, my God! It is hard to watch but it is amazing. It is absolutely amazing.

PINSKY: Everybody put -- yeah. Oh, my gosh.

SCHACHER: He comforts her.

PINSKY: That is -- what a great use of a service animal zblin credible. Incredible.

PINSKY: All right. Rolonda.

WATTS: I have got a great story. Father is day is coming up. This father deserves a medal. What would you do if you pulled up to the gas

station, got out of the car and the car took off with a carjacker and for kids in there.

Check this out. This father is a real hero. He goes to the gas station. His fiancee pulls up behind him at the gas pump. Right now he is

hanging out of the car because somebody is taking off with his fiancee is car with his son in there. He is banging on the window.

"My son is in there. My son is in there." He is dragging his feet, goes all the way around the parking lot there. Finally he is banging on it

enough that the guy carjacking -- a teenager apparently, carjacking the car. Realizes he has a kid. He stops. The kid jumps out of the car.

They take off with the car. The father breaks up with a broken arm and bruised toes.

PINSKY: Lucky he did not get killed.

WATTS: So be careful, y`all, when you get out the car with the keys in the ignition or car running especially with your kid in it.

SCHACHER: Did they catch the carjacker?

WATTS: They are still looking for him.

SCHACHER: What?

WATTS: Yes.

SCHACHER: Is not there low jack on that?

WATTS: Something.

PINSKY: Mike.

CATHERWOOD: The new challenge --

PINSKY: First of all show me what you are reading for a change.

CATHERWOOD: It is a nice iPad, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: All right. Well done.

CATHERWOOD: Check it out, HLN heads. There is a new challenge sweeping social media. It comes out of china where all healthy things come

from. And I guess you put your hands behind your back.

I do not even understand how this works. You try to reach around yourself and touch your belly button and you post a picture. I guess it is

supposed to show that you are healthy and thin if you can do it.

SCHACHER: It is the belly button challenge. It is actually become a form of body shaming.

PINSKY: It is body shaming.

WATTS: I cannot reach my ribs.

SCHACHER: If you can reach your belly button you are thin. If you cannot then you are not in shape. It is terrible.

CAHERWOOD: I do not think this is a healthy thing at all. Not even to fool around with. It shows zero -- it shows -- not a litmus test of

your health.

PINSKY: It shows nothing about anything. Of your shoulder which you could easily harm by doing something like this. All right.

CATHERWOOD. I dismissed this completely.

PINSKY: Right.

CATHERWOOD: I do not approve of the belly button challenge.

SCHACHER: Yeah! [ applause ]

WATS: Yeah!

SCHACHER: And there no cause. Like the ALS Ice Bucket challenge there was a cause. There is no cause.

PINSKY: I have got a paramedic who flip as gurney with a patient still on it. We have video after this.

(21:54:44) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(21:58:52) PINSKY: Time now for my "Click Fix." It is a disturbing video from guess what, Florida. An emergency room that has gone viral. A

man in the gurney is a 49-year-old with end stage cancer, terminal cancer.

The paramedic is a 11-year veteran with fire and rescue who reportedly became frustrated that the patient refused to move from the

gurney to a wheelchair. And so he ends up flipping the gurney.

SCHACHER: What?

WATTS: No!

PINSKY: The patient rolls onto the ground.

SCHACHER: Are you serious?

PINSKY: The paramedic was fired. He was charged with culpable negligence which is a misdemeanor. And there is the patient on the floor.

Was that a willful deal of kind of an accident?

SCHACHER: What? An accident?

PINSKY: I could not really see it where I was.

CATHERWOOD: He deserves to be charged at the highest level of the law. He has a pony tail as well [ laughter ]

PINSKY: I see somebody -- whenever I see caretakers mistreating a patient I think burn out. They have to be on the lookout for that. You

have to get these people out of there before they get burned out to the point they hurt somebody.

SCHACHER: Clearly he knows he is being filmed. There is another person there. If this I how he acts pushing people around can you imagine

how he acts when people are not around?

PINSKY: DVR us then you can watch us anytime. We thank you all for watching. Thank you, audience. We will see you next time.

(22:00:00) (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)

END