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Dr. Drew
Only a Matter of Time Before People Start Shooting at Police; Zachary Hammond Shot and Killed by Police During Marijuana Sting; Kris Vs. Caitlyn, Jenners in a Public Feud; Robbers with a Machete Get a Nasty Surprise
Aired August 18, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:11] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: According to a member of our audience last night, quote, "It is only a matter of time before the people
start shooting at the police." Tonight, we debate that dire prediction.
Plus, Kris vs. Caitlyn, the Jenners in a public feud. And, robbers with a machete get a nasty surprise. The good guy has a bigger machete.
It is all starting right now at the "Top Of The Feed."
Member of our live audience right in this spot last night shocked us and shocked the panel with an ominous prediction about the future of police
work in this country. I want to show this to you. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is only a matter of time before the people start shooting at the police and say whether they are shooting
at us. It is like they do not realize that they are kind of starting a revolution.
PINSKY: Well, John, what do you say to that?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER/ WJNO RADIO HOST: If you shoot at me, and I am a cop. I am going to shoot back and 35,000 other NYPD guys
are going to haunt you down. That is a felonious criminal disgraceful attitude. It is reprehensible and I hope --
[21:45:00] ATTY. AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL CONSULTANT: And your response is just as reprehensible. You are response is just as
reprehensible. You are the professional. You are the professional. You are the professional. Be above reproach, John. The police need to be
above reproach. They are the trained professionals. They are acting under the color of law.
CARDILLO: Hold on. You are advocating shooting at the police. Areva, you are advocating shooting at the police.
OMAROSA MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH, FORMER TRUMP`S "THE APPRENTICE" CONTESTANT: She is not advocating, John.
ATTY. MARTIN: I have not advocated shooting at the police.
PINSKY: One at a time.
ATTY. MARTIN: That is absolutely false. I said your comment was as reprehensible. Do you understand English. As reprehensible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, it kept going. And, so, we thought we would re-visit it tonight. Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Attorney, Of Counsel to the
Cochran Firm; Rolonda Watts, host of the CBS Podcast "Rolanda On Demand."
Michael Catherwood, My "Love Line" and he now also have a KABC -- well, "Love Line" co-host. We have a KABC radio show every day here in Los
Angeles on 790 AM, noon to 2:00. Mike, wake up. He is also the host of "Chain Reaction," on GSN.
In the audience, we brought back Areva Martin, attorney and legal consultant. And, we also asked our friend on Skype, John Cardillo, WJNO
radio host, former NYPD officer to resurrect what happened again last night.
Now, Areva, I got a bunch of tweets about you. So, I want to read them for you. Ready? Here they are. Alicia says, "Apparently, Areva
Martin is suggesting that cops allow criminals to shoot at them without returning fire?" And, then Frank tweeted, "Areva, what is the appropriate
response for a cop when fired upon?" I will send that to you, Areva.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL CONSULTANT: Well, let me start Dr. Drew by making it very clear to you, the panel, the audience and all of the
Twitter followers. I was not advocating anyone shooting at the police. I do not advocate violence of any sorts. I want to be clear about that.
We were having a conversation about whether African-American men are more likely to be shot by police than white or non-African-American men.
And, I was making a point that John was as reprehensible as meaning comparable to the outrageous statement made by a person in the audience,
who should not be shooting at the police. I believe everyone should be law abiding as well as the police.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: What was it that John was doing that got reprehensible? I do not understand.
MARTIN: I am sorry.
PINSKY: You said john was as reprehensible in some way?
MARTIN: The comment that he was making in terms of shooting back, and having 35,000 cops shooting at citizens.
PINSKY: OK. All right. John, how about that?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER/WJNO RADIO HOST (on camera): (INAUDIBLE)
PINSKY: Oh, John, can you hear me? Oh, I do not hear him, though. Mike, let me ask you this.
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" CO-HOST AND HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION," ON GSN: Yes.
PINSKY: Areva brought this one thing up about the disproportionate probability of an African-American being male shot by police. Is that what
you are saying?
MARTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: We looked at that data today on our KABC show.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: And, it was strikingly not that Areva, strikingly.
MARTIN: I got some evidence, Dr. Drew. That evidence is there. I think there is a lot of -- there is contradictory evidence out there about
the FBI reports and some reports say the FBI information is incomplete, because all police departments do not report the data in.
PINSKY: Everybody says that. But, it is the only data we got, right?
MARTIN: Yes, but I brought a report from ProPublica that says, "Who gets killed?" The finding that young black men are 21 times as likely as
their white peers to be killed by police is drawn from reports from 2010 to 2012 from their most recent years based on FBI numbers. That is what the
documents is.
PINSKY: Now, the FBI numbers we looked at were from the last year and was --
CATHERWOOD: It is 2015 up to April of this year.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, then 2014 year in total, there was substantially more non-black individuals killed by police.
PINSKY: And --
CATHERWOOD: Substantially.
PINSKY: Substantially.
CATHERWOOD: But then again, you know, I do not know where the argument goes. It is more to me, the important aspect to kind of analyze
is not like by the numbers. The semantics of it is, this kind of idea that this young man, who stood up yesterday and said, "It is only a matter of
time before we start shooting back."
[21:05:08] PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: I do not think he means black people. I do not think he means black males. I think he means the young individuals in this country
definitely have an us versus them mentality when it comes to law enforcement. That is something that we have like to address.
(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)
PINSKY: Is John -- can John talk o me now? Still, no Rolonda what is that?
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF THE CBS PODCAST "ROLANDA ON DEMAND": No, I totally agree we that. I mean -- And, I think what is happening now, the
switch is that it is not just black folks who are complaining about this --
PINSKY: Well, that is what Mike is saying.
WATTS: -- or becoming the victims of this.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
WATTS: And, also, you know, I have often said that the hunters become the hunted at some point. At some point, you cannot keep killing people`s
children and not have a community turnaround and be totally upset about that.
I am certainly not advocating violence either. But, we are sitting on a hot bed right now in America, and guess what? For the young millennials,
I do believe this is their new civil right movement. This is their movement for this generation. And, it is going to be this over wielding of
Robocop-type, Rambo cops out there.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Cardillo, I got your back. Please respond.
CARDILLO: OK. Dr. Drew, first of all, this is all silly. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that it is reprehensible for a police officer
to return fire if fired upon. And, I want to throw some stats out to dispel the narrative.
African-American Sheriff David Clark, a democrat, tweeted out. Since 2003-2011, police in the United States made 98 million arrests -- 2,931
times, 0.003 percent. In the same time period, black men, 20 to 24 committed 11 percent of the murders in the U.S. Now, Areva does not like
math. That is OK, but the math does not bear out --
MARTIN: No, John. No, John
CARDILLO: Hold on. Just hold on. Let me finish.
PINSKY: John.
CARDILLO: The math does not bear out, the police randomly killing young blacks.
PINSKY: OK. Anahita, it is your chance to comment.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY/OF COUNSEL TO THE COCHRAN FIRM: Well, I mean, I do not like all of this, Dr. Drew. The fact is I get the mistrust.
I get frustration. I mean as an attorney, I see every day the role that race plays in our criminal justice system, but violence is obviously not
the solution. And, now, that this is such a hot topic, we are seeing all of these police shootings, let us find solutions.
PINSKY: DOES it shock you that a guy stands up in this room, and says people are going to start firing back.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes --
PINSKY: I was shocked when he said that. I wanted to give him an opportunity to take it back.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: He would not.
SEDAGHATFAR: It does not shock me, but again I think it is counterproductive. And, we seen this, we have seen this outrage as you
just mentioned. And, instead of focusing our energy on that, why do not we focus on training officers better in de-escalation of force?
PINSKY: I agree.
SEDAGHATFAR: And so to contain them about the mentally-ill and distinguishing mental illness from criminal activities, but not violence.
WATTS: And, I am not going to see it moving from just a race issue.
MARTIN: But, I do not know if I agree with that.
WATTS: I am so happy to see it is not just a black-white issue anymore. This is about a power issue --
PINSKY: And, not in this room.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
WATTD: No. And, yes, there are great cops out there, but there are some situations we got to --
PINSKY: But, Rolonda, in this room we are making progress.
WATTS: I know.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: Well, I just want to address the Areva does not like math comment.
PINSKY: Areva, hold on. I know you like math.
MARTIN: Because I am honored graduate from college. But, besides that, I do like math. And, I like the fact that the department of justice
is coming down hard on police departments around this country and the way they are systemically discriminating against African-American men`s
irrefutable.
PINSKY: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, Dr. Drew. I have to tell the cop gentleman there --
PINSKY: John.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- that I have always supported the police, but he -- he is saying, that is not what she said. She did not
say that the cops should just shoot back at them. That is not what she is saying at all. She is saying that they better darn well think about it
before they fired somebody and kill someone.
PINSKY: And, to be fair, John, to pile on with this, what you and I have talked about, john, over the last many months was about using
alternative methods and using the dogs and using bin bags and using, you know, rubber bullets and things. You are an advocate for all that.
CARDILLO: Sure, until the point somebody shoots at me with a firearm, then I am opening fire and then reloading until they are down.
PINSKY: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I was going to say, whether -- well, yes.
CATHERWOOD: Wait. What is wrong about what he said?
SEDAGHATFAR: Whether Areva`s statistics are right --
PINSKY: It does not matter.
SEDAGHATFAR: The fact is this perception exists, whether it is reality or not. And, I think just having these discussions to a certain
extent is counterproductive.
CATHERWOOD: What?
SEDAGHATFAR: When we are in its counterproductive --
PINSKY: Why are you here?
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: When we are talking about -- because I am here to set everybody straight. I think it is a matter of finding solutions;
otherwise, what are we doing?
(CROSSTALKS)
MARTIN: Well, we cannot find solutions if we do not talk about what the problem is.
SEDAGHATFAR: We are complaining and complaining and complaining. We have identified the problem whether it is perception --
MARTIN: I do not think we are in agreement on what the problem is.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, the perception exists regardless of whether or not the statistics show that. And, what I am saying is, I find it much more
productive, now that we are finally talking about this to find solutions.
PINSKY: All right. Keep this going. And, later, Kris versus Caitlyn. You are going to be surprised. The Jenners are having a very
public feud. We are going to talk about it after this.
[21:10:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: There is something different about this case. Zachary Hammond was white.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is this shooting being ignored because there is not a racial issue?
JOHN CARDILLO, WJNO RADIO HOST AND FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Yes, most definitely. Absolutely, without a doubt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, HOST OF "WIRED IN WITH SEGUN" PODCAST: Forget the color. Deal with the boys in blue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "ROLONDA ON DEMAND" PODCAST: There is no need for deadly force, and there is an unarmed person killed again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Unarmed teens and when you cannot figure out a better way to arrest someone or to deal with the situation other than to use lethal
force, we are in trouble in this country.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: We are in trouble.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Zachary Hammond, we are talking about; he was shot and killed by a police during a marijuana sting. First of all, I am shocked that
there is such a thing.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Marijuana sting.
PINSKY: In a fast food parking lot. Police say Zachary tried to run over an officer with his vehicle. The officer shot him twice in the chest.
The family`s private autopsy found Zachary was shot in the back. They were moving away from him when he was shot.
Back with Anahita, Rolonda, Mike, Areva and John still on Skype. Joining me on the phone, I have Eric Bland. He is the attorney for Zachary
Hammond`s family. I guess we have a lot of questions for you. Tell us about this private autopsy in the findings.
ERIC BLAND, ATTORNEY OF ZACHARY HAMMOND`S FAMILY: Dr. Drew, we felt it was necessary because the narrative that was being delivered by the
Seneca Police Chief as well as by the coroner was exactly what you said, that he was shot -- Zachary was shot in the chest. And, it did not put
context in where the bullets were entered.
The bullets entered according to the second autopsy, which entered into his body on the left rear shoulder and his left side back chest; which
was indicative of the officer is shooting him from the back. And, Dr. Drew, where I grew up, you shoot somebody in the back, you are a coward.
You are not a hero and you get charged with murder.
MARTIN: That is right.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BLAND: And, unfortunately - Unfortunately, in this situation, the solicitor views the police officer as a hero, and you have to judge his
conduct. Not subjectively, but what would a reasonable officer have done under these circumstances.
And, we do not need to look any further that there was another officer who had his gun drawn on the passenger`s side of the vehicle. And, that
officer did not perceive a threat. That officer did not see a weapon. That officer did not perceive it.
Zachary and the girl on the passenger`s seat were disregarding police instructions, and he did not discharge his weapon. So, that was a
reasonable officer. But the officer that shot Zachary, shot him from the back.
He had time to reflect, had time to make other choices and decided to use deadly force on an teenager who weighed 121 pound and was not the focus
of that sting operation.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mr. Bland. Now, John, you, yesterday, told us that you felt the vehicle was a weapon, even though this kid did not have
any firearm. He was using his vehicle as a weapon as far as you were concerned.
CARDILLO: Yes, I mean, this happened to me, at Burnside Avenue in the Bronx. I pulled over a vehicle an in a split second, the guy took off by
me as I was at his pickup. He had a piece of trim hanging of the vehicle. It hooked into my gun belt. And, my weapon coming out of my holster into
his face.
That is the only thing I got him to stop that car. Had he not, I would have been hit by vehicles on the other side of the street and killed.
A vehicle is a weapon. I also want to comment on the officer on the right side not shooting. That was brutal. Zach Hammond was driving the vehicle.
He was depressed. The passenger was not. So, that officer was correct not to shoot. -- Fired to stop threat. And, I really do not have problems --
I want to wait for the big boot.
PINSKY: All right, John I got to interrupt you. I will get an input from out audience. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, the cops were wrong for killing Zachary. That is for sure. Can I get an amen? I was also a
victim of police brutality.
PINSKY: What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am a white girl. OK? From Long Beach --
CATHERWOOD: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I know, shocking.
(LAUGHING)
When I was 19-years-old, I grew up in Long Beach. And, my family lived in this house totally just like beautiful little suburban home. No
issues ever. My mom worked for the court.
We had a house party when I was 19 from my band`s record release. And, a bunch of adults came. It was not even like a teenage -- like keger,
or anything like that. About 11:30, 15 cop cars show up to our house.
PINSKY: And, what happened to you exactly? Let us get to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. I was tased. I was tased in the throat from about 3 --
PINSKY: Were you talking back to the cops?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was not. And, I was charged with police brutality and a resisting arrest, but I was just in my little
heels, and a dress. They came in. They arrested my mom. I watched them handcuffed my sister, and push her over the couch. She had a little tiara
on.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Now, Mike, you have been handled similarly by the police, but you say it is when you --
CATHERWOOD: I have always been terrible. I was always being a really bad guy.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, you deserved it as much as --
CATHERWOOD: I mean, listen, that itself so subjective to say what level of force a policeman can use on you and what is right and what is
wrong? But, I definitely was pushing buttons. I mean I was not complying.
PINSKY: Now, that you are sober, you are not drunk, you are not hanging out with a bunch of screwballs.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: Magically, you do not have any trouble with --
CATHERWOOD: No, that is a very -- You know, it is very poignant to say like when I was committing crime every single day of my life, which I
was, I was at least possessing drugs every day. And, then, now -- now that I do not, I do not commit crime, I just do not have any animosity nor do I
have any of that awkward feeling that have when you even encountered cops, which I used to have? Even just the sight of cop, I would be like, "Ugh."
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, what is going on is absolutely wrong. I disagree with it, but I think the biggest problem was
in our community especially in America is that of the lack of understanding and the fear that is being placed between citizens and cops.
PINSKY: So, what do we do about it?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
[21:20:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We need to come to a conclusion, where we can sit down and we understand each other. We are
working off the fear. Cops are fearful. Citizens are fearful. We are at a point of misunderstanding. And, I think that is the biggest point
because cops are terrified.
They have a hard job. We have a hard job living with being in fear of being shot, being arrested at any point. But, we need to just come to a
conclusion and talk about what is really going on.
PINSKY: Now, Anahita, you wanted solutions. That is what you called for the last segment.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: I do not feel that fear. I feel bad for the police.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: I feel bad that horrible things are happening. It is hard to deny that.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: But how do we get people, the citizens to feel positive about the police? Would not that be --
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, that is a good question. I wish I had the answers. I do not, but I think we need to start thinking about that, Dr.
Drew.
WATTS: I think we can start --
SEDAGHATFAR: And, I think that is the --
WATTS: Go on. Go on.
SEDAGHATFAR: No, and I think that is the point. I think even having this discussion and throwing ideas out there.
PINSKY: Now, it is OK --
SEDAGHATFAR: It is a good start. Well, because we are talking about solutions.
PINSKY: Rolonda.
SEDAGHATFAR: I am not just complaining about the problems.
WATTS: You know, I think sometimes, what they say, God is in the details. It is the little things that we do. And, I have had to catch
myself. I have had some prejudicial thoughts about cops. I will admit. But, if you see a police officer, say "Hello."
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: Or just to stretch yourself beyond just the regular old -- regular same old fear factor. "Thank you for doing your job today,
officer." Buy him a cup of coffee. Any little thing -- I know. I know it sounds corny and Kumbaya. I know. But it makes a big difference.
PINSKY: Mike.
WATTS: And, if nothing else, it puts positivity out there in the first place.
CATHERWOOD: There was a time and a place. There was a time and a place -- All right. You are right, you are not on T.V. There was a time
and a place in this country when the most populated cities had maybe a million people.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, most people did not really encounter more than a couple hundred people in their life. And, it was very easy for the police
and the citizens to have a very open working relationship.
You know, in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York City, and other -- a lot of other cities, many of other cities, that is practically impossible.
And, the police because of it, suffer because they do not have the ability to have that kind of intimate relationship with the citizens that they
patrol and vice-versa. We do not really know policemen.
PINSKY: And, that is the fear again. Yes, ma`am, you have a comment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I just wanted to say to officer John, thank you for your service. However, I mean, something has
to be going on in this man`s head that he must feel so unsafe the fact that he can sit on national television and say, you know, he wants the brutality
that he went behind it.
But, it is him, and the cops with Sandra Bland, who I think verbatim said, "I will light you up. I will light you up." Like those cops -- like
what you are saying you want solutions, they are not the solution. They are the problems.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, you are coming on television and you are saying these things -- where is this man`s PR person? Why are not they yanking the court on this
man? I am serious. This is the hostile that what we see. We do not see to become find a cup of coffee mug. I do not know.
PINSKY: Mike -- Well, let us start with that.
WATTS: But, not all. And, you know, here I go. I am sorry. But, not all of the cops are the rogue cops. So, one little bit at a time just
helps build the relationship a little bit.
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: And nor -- I would not classify John as a rogue cop.
WATTS: No. But, you know -- but they are out there.
SEDAGHATFAR: How about even trying to screen out bad cops? Not all cops are obviously bad. How come we do not have, you know, more mechanisms
to screen them out?
PINSKY: And, Mike -- hang on a second. Mike, you and I have seen a friend of ours get lit up by the cops.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: He deserved to be --
CATHERWOOD: He was being a terrible person.
PINSKY: Absolutely. That is the only way they could have control him. He would have killed him.
CATHERWOOD: I believe the cops said, "If you, giant mother F`er, I am going to cook your balls.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, he was --
WATTS: Who is this friend?
SEDAGHATFAR: Who is this?
CATHERWOOD: That is a deep dark secret.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is the problem that I have with all of this is that it is not a side taking thing.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But, I just heard you say that there is no fear from you.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: There is probably no fear from you because you have not had to live this.
PINSKY: Well, no, I have. It is not true. I have been abused by cops on two different occasions. And, then, one lied about what happened
in court. And, I was confused by it. I did not think all cops were bad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But, I am saying in the sense of every day. Certain communities --
PINSKY: Let me say, I have white privilege and I am a male.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right.
PINSKY: It is bad. All the way through in terms of what I do not perceive. I am sure of that. So, let me cop to that for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. So, this is the problem I have, and I am listening to you. And, it seems like, if you never -- I
mean I do not live in south central, but I have family that lives in south central.
And, I just witnessed a murder the other day. It was not by the cops, but it was still what happens in that community, which I understand why the
cops are fearful piggybacking on what she said.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But, it is really hard, if you are not living it, to really get what is going on, you know?
PINSKY: I agree. And, we have to leave it there. I think that is an excellent place to leave it, because that is an excellent reminder to those
of us like myself that may be a little confused by at times if we are not living all the time to stay tuned.
I get criticism on Twitter on tweets about me sort of making too much of exactly what she said. And, I cannot make too much of it, because I am
a privileged white male, that I should make a lot of it. Exactly what she is saying.
[21:25:13] That is a got the great point. We are going to leave it there. Next, Kris Jenner calling out Caitlyn over a very public transition
and the conflict thing they have, after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Hey, an upcoming episode of "I am Cait." Kris Jenner finally confronts Caitlyn Jenner about being transgender. Take a look at this from
E!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRIS JENNER, BRUCE JENNER`S EX-WIFE: You are sensitive and amazing to all these new people in your life. You are just not so sensitive and
amazing to the family that you left behind.
CAITLYN JENNER, TRANSGENDER AND KRIS JENNER`S EX-HUSBAND: I try to do everything I can to be nice, reach out. You have to see it from my
perspective. Be an ally when it comes to dealing with the kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRIS JENNER: When you feel like you gave your whole life to somebody and the sum of it all was you were a distraction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAITLYN JENNER: Do not go there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Rolonda, Mike, Areva is still with us. Anahita?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: What do you think? You are reacting to this.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK. I never thought I would say this, but I actually sympathize with Kris Jenner --
PINSKY: With Kris.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. Because at the end of the day, his or her decision to transition did not just affect her life. It affects all of her
children. It affects his ex-wife. They were married for 22 years.
They have two children together. Is she supposed to do jumping jacks and flip-flops, because now her world is turned upside down and her husband
is now living as a woman?
PINSKY: And, Rolonda, "Do not go there" is a pretty harsh statement.
WATTS: Wait a minute --
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. That is a little harsh. It is not just about Caitlyn. I am glad she is living her life the way she wants to. It is her
truth.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, realistically, it is a little bit self absorbed to make that kind of comment.
WATTS: I think it is self absorbed of Kris. This is not about Kris. This is about Caitlyn also.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SEDAGHATFAR: I know.
WATTS: But, I can never tell when the reality show, three-ring circus ends with Kris and real life comes in. And, Caitlyn is dealing with real
life. And, she sat back as a spectator all this time. I felt on that Kardashian show. And, it is her time and she is at age where she can do
what she wants to done.
PINSKY: Mike, your comment.
WATTS: And, I applaud her.
CATHERWOOD: I -- Just watching that, I got the sense -- You know, I was reminded of how insensitive I think we all are. I, myself, is as
guilty as anyone, when people live their lives in front of a camera or in the media, you often lose sight of the fact that they are human beings.
PINSKY: Yes.
(CROSSTALKS)
CATHERWOOD: And, you will forget. Hold on -- I know, I understand that but I was like, "Whoa, they were married."
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, a divorce --
PINSKY: 20 years.
CATHERWOOD: And a 20-year marriage, when it was dissolved, there are so many emotions. And, whenever there is a divorce, whether it is John Doe
down the street or people -- there is always, her side, his side and the truth. You do not know.
PINSKY: And --
SEDAGHATFAR: And, the T.V. side. This is a reality television show. And, for me, Dr. Drew, honestly, part of this thing about Caitlyn being a
hero, and being this wonderful example, that is great.
But, when you have a reality show, and you are doing outfit changes, going on the red carpet, three or four times. You are doing magazine
covers. It kind of takes away from that. And, it becomes to me more about money and publicity.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me bring in --
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not respect that.
PINSKY: I want to bring somebody in who, I think -- whose opinion we should be really listening to on this whole thing. I got Isley Reust. She
is a transgender musician, herself. Isley, what is your take?
ISLEY REUST, TRANSGENDER MUSICIAN: Back then, it was harder for people to come out. So, I feel like she is not being selfish, how she is
vowing to who she was.
PINSKY: Isley, is Kris` emotion more about divorce and loss or the fact that Caitlyn is now getting a lot of attention?
REUST: I think it is about lost. You know, she lost someone very dear to her.
PINSKY: It is a family.
REUST: Yes. It is a family. It is someone you got close to, bonded to, you know.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is true.
PINSKY: Hold on a second.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: It is true.
WATTS: I am sorry. I am just telling the truth.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, it is true.
WATTS: She lost family. I am sorry about that, but she lost ratings, too.
PINSKY: Rolonda.
WATTS: And, I think she is trying to get up there and --
PINSKY: That is so harsh. That is really harsh.
WATTS: It is a reality show, Dr. Drew. It is a reality show.
SEDAGHATFAR: What are they doing this? Let me ask anybody here. Why is Caitlyn Jenner like putting all of this on a reality T.V. show? Is it
to serve some public good?
WATTS: And, we are coming to shows, can you be on, girlfriend?
(CROSSTALKS)
SEDAGHATFAR: Part of that is you have to get ratings, right? Otherwise, you will be taken off the air.
WATTS: Off the air.
SEDAGHTAFAR: So, part of that is you want to make mullah. So, you have to make it interesting. To ignore that aspect is to be very
disingenuous.
WATTS: And, Kris do not show up on the show, that has the best ratings right now.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Isley.
REUST: I have a few friends who are working with her that are on the show with her and teaching her and going along the way with her.
PINSKY: Yes.
REUST: And, I think she is being very authentic and truthful about who she is as a person, and she is trying to be good. And, she is being
very well educated as she is going along with it. So, yes --
SEDAGHATFAR: I see that. It just kind of takes it away from me when it is on T.V.
PINSKY: Hang on. I want to hear from the audience. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: That is fine and good that Caitlyn has been authentic with herself. But, I think when a woman marries
a man, she expects a husband.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: She did not look for a one. So, I think that he needs to be a little sensitive to that fact.
PINSKY: OK. So --
MARTIN: Dr. Drew, I am fine.
PINSKY: You are being -- Listen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am not saying that you thought that I was a man, you are looking for a husband.
PINSKY: It is something in what you are saying, I am sorry that we are acting insensitively. But, be sensitive to Kris`s feelings -- Really,
within what you are saying is Kris Jenner is going through a hell of a lot here too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: She was saying, it is a 25 years. She gave him two kids. She probably knew he was cross dressing.
She probably kept it secret. And, now, that he is out and popular, he wants to turn against her and put her down. It is not right.
PINSKY: All right.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(CROSSTALKS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I do not like the attitude.
PINSKY: Let us flip it around again and say, "Geez, do we blame Caitlyn for this or blame the rest of us for not giving this poor person
the opportunity to come out a long time ago, so she did not get in this situation?"
REUST: Yes. He just now starting to move forward and be more educated about this whole subject matter. But, you know back then it was
definitely a lot harder for people to come out then. And, so, we should not hold it all the way on Caitlyn for being selfish.
[21:35:00] PINSKY: By the way, she is going through so much.
REUST: Of course, she has gone through it.
PINSKY: It has really piled up.
CATHERWOOD: But, wait. Let us point out and you know, what that young lady said is very true. I mean, I guess, there was that debate and
switch. But, at the same time, I know firsthand from having done small amounts of work with the Kardashian family and different --
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: -- that this was a Kim and Kris and Courtney idea and Khloe idea to do "Keeping Up With The Kardashians." When Caitlyn was still
identifying as Bruce --
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: I am pretty sure he did not want to be the biggest reality T.V. star in the world.
PINSKY: Or did he expect it?
CATHERWOOD: And, that added an intense layer on all of this.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, what about now, Mike? What about now?
CATHERWOOD: I think now there -- I think you are silly and naive to think that a factor into "Call Me Cait" -- has to be popularity ratings,
because that is honestly how she pays the bills now.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
CATHERWOOD: But, that does not take away from the fact that I truly believe that Caitlyn`s motives are clear and the idea of transitioning in
front of the camera can serve to help lots of people.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SEDAGHATFAR: You can have your motive.
PINSKY: Wait. Hang on. Hang on. One of the reasons I reacted to what Rolonda said that you and I both know, Mike. A lot of people that
know Kris. And, you know Kris, I am sure.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: And Caitlyn. And, these are really, really nice people. I mean no one ever says anything that they have been -- a bad word.
CATHERWOOD: If you thought that "Keeping Up With The Kardashians" is dumb, and you cannot believe they gets the ratings. Fine, I get it. But,
you do not blame them. They are just collecting checks.
PINSKY: Blame us from watching these things.
WATTS: It is the rating.
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: Yes. OK. Stop it. We got to stop and continue it after the break. Hang on, everybody. Later, I got a store clerk who scares off a
machete wielding robber with an even bigger machete. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE JENNER: Kris has really been handling me as my manager forever since we were -- actually we are coming up on 20 years of marriage.
KRIS JENNER: Is not that great?
BRUCE JENNER: Yes, and -- but I used to always, you know, to talk to somebody about something and I always say, "Well, really to get this done,
you will have to talk to my manager and that is my wife and good luck."
KRIS JENNER: He has to take control.
BRUCE JENNER: She is the head of all of this, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We saw Kris Jenner there, who breaks down in tears as she confronts her ex-husband, Caitlyn Jenner, about their failed marriage on an
upcoming episode of "I Am Cait."
Back with Anahita, Rolonda, Mike, Areva, Isley. And, now joining us via Skype Annah Moore. She is a transgender woman, Anna, now, when you
started to transition, you were married with a 10-year-old son. Is this all familiar territory to you? And, by the way, you heard our
conversation, I want to get your input?
ANNAH MOORE, TRANSGENDER WOMAN: Yes. Yes, it is definitely familiar. It was really hard for my ex-wife, because as people have pointed out
before, she married a man and expected that result I guess if you want. And, when that changed, it was traumatic. And, so, I could not blame her
for being upset about that.
PINSKY: And, Annah, is it similar -- I mean, you know, divorce is painful, no matter what precipitates the divorce. Is what Kris -- I am
just curious, do you think what Kris is feeling is more about that than anything else?
MOORE: Well, I cannot speak too much to what she is feeling exactly. I think any divorce like you said is very painful. This one is pretty
tricky, because you love the person. And, I think the complexity is really brought on by the fact that they are the same -- we are the same person for
the most part. We are just being true to ourselves, you know, outwardly. I think it is important --
PINSKY: And, in Caitlyn`s part, she is also still attracted to females a least as I last heard it.
MOORE: Right. Right.
PINSKY: And, so, if Kris has also rejected in spite of her interest in females, that is extra super weird problematic.
WATTS: This is someone you once knew.
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: I think you may be as happy as you can for somebody, who really finds your identity, but you will miss that person if they are gone.
PINSKY: Anna, go ahead.
MOORE: Well, I am actually best friends with my ex, still. We live next door to each other.
PINSKY: That is nice.
MOORE: And, hang out quite a lot.
PINSKY: OK.
MOORE: So, we have a good kind of girlfriend relationship. I am more attracted to women than men still.
PINSKY: But not her? But not your ex-wife?
MOORE: Well, I am attracted to her.
PINSKY: OK.
MOORE: But, she is not a lesbian. You know, she told me that.
PINSKY: I see, got it. No. No, but listen, that is going to make sense --
(CROSSTALKS)
CATHERWOOD: Due to discrepancy.
PINSKY: No. No, you got to understand that. That makes perfect sense to me. I remember Chaz Bono when he transitioned. Girlfriend at the
time did not want a man. She was not interested in him. Let me take an audience question. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: My opinion on it is like we brought up the millennial generation earlier on the show. And, I think
that what this does is it is setting precedence for the generation to start opening up about who they really are. And, as for Kris Jenner, I mean she
fell in love with Caitlyn as well because it was Caitlyn that won those gold medals, too, not just Bruce.
PINSKY: That is interesting. That is interesting. Isley, straighten that out for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I am just saying like we are in a generation that people are starting to identify themselves at a young
age. I was just speaking to this woman here. And, she said she identified at the age of 4.
PINSKY: And, we did a special. It is going air next week on Wednesday and Thursday. Our whole audience was filled with transgender
individuals. And, we had a young lady there. She was 15, was not she?
CATHERWOOD: She was like 14.
PINSKY: Yes, but she has already transitioned and had started hormones at 12 or 13 -- but finish your comment. I am sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, I agree, but I am just saying that if anything Bruce is one of the leading forces in bringing this out
and if it is not going to be this voice over reality television or not, then what is it going to be? And, if anything, it is important that this
is getting out now for this generation.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
REUST: You have to remember, this is Caitlyn`s story, you know. Everyone`s journey is different. But, Caitlyn is getting her story out
there. So, everyone knows about it, which is helping the community in some sort of aspects.
PINSKY: I think it is. Well, look at the conversation we are having.
REUST: Yes.
[21:45:00] CATHERWOOD: I do not want to make the comparison because I feel like I would be arrogant to do so. But, Dr. Drew, we have talked
about this when it came to the idea of addiction recovery. And, what -- you know some people point fingers and judge when you -- you, yourself,
have in other shows have used the form of reality T.V. to kind of expose that.
In my take as a drug addict is by any means necessary. And, I think if it is tolerance for transgender individuals, and if it comes through the
prism of reality television, so be it. As long as the method and the movement is further.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, how diluted is the message when you know it is on a reality T.V.?
CATHERWOOD: That is fair.
(CROSSTALKS)
SEDAGHATFAR: I am not saying it is not real --
PINSKY: It might be. It maybe -- and by the way, we are in a time when politics is becoming like a reality show as well --
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. That is true.
PINSKY: But, we are going to leave this conversation right here. I am out of time. Next up, convenience store thieves with a machete are in
for a nasty surprise. I want to show you also two specials we have coming up, "Being Transgender In America." They air next Wednesday and Thursday
at 9:00 P.M. eastern time on HLN.
It was a privilege to do that show with very interesting. I think you will all enjoy it. So, tune in. Set your DVRs. It is a very important
show. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds, and Rolonda is
first.
WATTS: Oh, this is crazy. Dr. Drew, this is one of those occasions, when it is bigger to be bigger in the states so to speak. I have a under
surveillance video of an attempted robbery. Now, this is at a convenience store. And, these guys in Pittsburgh were ready for these teenagers who
came in, these would thieves.
One of the thieves goes and tries to mess with one of the customers. And, then the other one goes behind the counter. Well, this guy has some
for him. Look at what he pulls out, a huge sword. Look at that.
(LAUGHING)
"Mine is bicker than yours," he said. And, the guy took off. This is when that really counts. OK.
PINSKY: It is a --
WATTS: I know. Where did he get this thing? Where did he this thing?
PINSKY: Oh my God.
WATTS: The police are still looking for these guys.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: That is incredible.
WATTS: I know.
PINSKY: Well done.
WATTS: They are ready for him. Ready for him.
PINSKY: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK. So, I have a story, blowing up in the news feeds everywhere. This is crazy, you guys. It is chaos in the courtroom. So, a
man in Tennessee is on trial for the stabbing death of his niece. And, today the first witness was called. It was the victim`s boyfriend. He was
going to testify.
PINSKY: There is tape to see?
SEDAGHATFAR: There is tape to see. So, the witness was an inmate on unrelated charges. He is in the orange jumpsuit. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stay back. Stay back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Back up, sir. Back up, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He stabbed --
SEDAGHATFAR: He was reportedly stabbed by that suspect.
WATTS: Whoa!
SEDAGHATFAR: The same way that the girlfriend was killed. And, so, now the judge has delayed the trial until September. And, he is
considering a closed courtroom, which I think would be a very good idea. I have never seen anything like this in any of my court hearings. This is
really scary.
WATTS: Wow. Ooh!
PINSKY: It is up, Mike. You are up. You are up.
CATHERWOOD: Why is it I am going to be that exciting, after all. All right. It has been two months since the Supreme Court legalizing sex
marriage, but Pat Robertson.
PINSKY: Here we go.
CATHERWOOD: He just cannot seem to let it go.
PINSKY: You are always reporting on Pat Robertson.
CATHERWOOD: I know. I am not a fan.
SEDAGHATFAR: You have a secret crush on him.
CATHERWOOD: He is a wiz and old man and he should die, too.
WATTS: No.
PINSKY: Easy.
CATHERWOOD: This morning on the "700 Club." He said that the constitution has been quote, "Hijacked." Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT ROBERTSON, HOST OF THE "700 CLUB": Homosexuals, gays, lesbians, transgenders, whatever you call it. They were asking for acceptance. They
were asking for a part in society and so that has been granted to them. They have a part in society. They have job protection.
Now, homosexual marriage is protected by the constitution. The founders would have been turning in their graves if they thought such a
thing was being said. So, are they content? No, they are now on a vendetta to destroy everyone who disagrees with them. And, now, we are
going to have a clash between his homosexual rights and the bible. It is outrageous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wait, I need to consult with an attorney.
SEDAGHATFAR: Homosexual rights?
PINSKY: Homosexual rights and the bible. What?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think he even understands what he was saying, Dr. Drew. That made absolutely no sense to me.
CATHERWOOD: How did he get his shoulders so high?
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh wow!
PINSKY: And, the constitution. That is the whole point. The constitution protects them.
SEDAGHATFAR: Protects them.
PINSKY: Because, the document does that.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
PINSKY: It is how it has been interpreted.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
CATHERWOOD: I talked to my attorney, Kenneth Keith Kallenbach (ph), he says, Pat Robertson misspoke. You can actually still be fired in 29
states for being gay.
PINSKY: Really?
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
WATTS: Wow!
PINSKY: That is -- huh?
SEDAGHATFAR: Not all states are as evolved as California.
PINSKY: Wait, are they protected of the federal laws, though, that is why the state laws do not prevail?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, if the federal law protects them, then yes they are protected under federal.
PINSKY: All right. We are going to leave it there. Back after this. .
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:54:24] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Time for my "Click Fix." It is about Jared Fogle blowing up my Instagram and my -- well, blowing up all my feeds. The former subway
pitchman is expected to plead guilty to charges related to possession of child pornography. This is according to two law enforcement officials, who
spoke to CNN.
I was talking to Areva before the show, and she is like, "Really, I got no idea -- there has to be really bad evidence there." Details of a
plea deal are expected tomorrow. Earlier this year, investigators raided his Indiana home. A raid came more than two months after the executive
director of the Jared Foundation was also arrested on federal child pornography charges.
Subway says, quote, "We no longer have a relationship with Jared and have no further comment." I wish people had more conversations about
trauma and how trauma causes overeating, and maybe this guys was a trauma survivor. And, there may be a lot more to the story and people --
SEDAGHATFAR: The gift that keeps on giving.
PINSKY: No. She is right. That is what I say. If people are sexually abused in childhood, they do things later in life sometimes or
bring stuff on themselves. It is just awful.
CATHERWOOD: You never can tell how it manifests.
PINSKY: That is right. You never can. I am not accusing him of anything, but I wish we have bigger conversation about trauma. We have two
specials coming up next Wednesday and Thursday, "Being Transgender In America." They air at 9:00 Eastern on HLN. That is Wednesday and
Thursday.
Please join us. The entire audience is filled with transgender individuals. We have a very interesting conversation. DVR -- Set your DVR
for that. In fact, set your DVR for this show every day at 6:00 here in the west, 9:00 in the east. Also follow us on SnapChat. Also, check out
our after show on Facebook. Thank you for watching. Thank you audience. We will see you next time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
