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Dr. Drew
Baby Doe`s Mom and Mom`s Boyfriend Charged in Murder; Kim Davis`s Shocking Admission; A Rodent And His Dinner Caught On Tape; City Bus Driver Assaulted by African-American High School Student; So-Called Foot Sniffer Caught in the Act. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 22, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, a little girl is murdered, her body discarded in a plastic bag. Who is to blame, the mother, the
boyfriend, or a system that should have prevented this tragedy? Plus, Kim Davis`s shocking admission in an exclusive interview. And, pizza rat.
That is right. Why a rodent is trending on Twitter.
It all starts right now on the "Top of the Feed." Baby Doe`s body found along a shoreline near Boston in June, for three months her identity was a
mystery. Now, we know her name and who is accused of putting her there. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Emotions ran high in a Boston courtroom during a bail hearing for Rachelle Bond and her boyfriend Michael McCarthy. Both
charged in connection with the death of Rachelle`s daughter, 2-year-old Bella.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGAN FEWTRELL, BELLA`S GODMOTHER: You rot in hell. You {EXPLETIVE WORD] rot in hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Before Bella was identified, she was referred to as Baby Doe. After her remains were found rot in a black trash bag.
McCarthy was charged Friday with murder and was denied bail. Bond was charged as an accessory to murder after the fact.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Prosecutors say Bella was unwilling to go to bed here at her Dorchester, Massachusetts` apartment. That is when
prosecutors say Michael McCarthy went to try and calm her down in the back bedroom. When things got quiet Rachelle Bond went to check on them.
According to the criminal complaint, that is when Bond witnessed McCarthy striking Bella in the abdomen. She says when Bella stopped breathing,
McCarthy said to her, "It was her time to die."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Sam Schacher, Host of "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Areva Martin, Attorney and Legal Consultant; Karamo Brown, T.V. Host, reporter
for Huff -- via Skype. I got Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, author of Messages for Joey: A Few Things I Need You To Know About Life,
Friendship, Money, Love, Self. And, I have Bethany Marshall, Psychotherapist and Psychoanalyst. Sam, give me more data here.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: First of all, researching the story was very difficult for me to do.
PINSKY: I saw you getting upset physically just watching the footage.
SCHACHER: Absolutely disturbing, disgusting. Both the mother and boyfriend had pled not guilty. They are both blaming one another.
According to Bella`s mother`s attorney, she said that Bella was so afraid of her boyfriend. That is why she did not call 911.
However, Bella has a criminal history involving prostitution, involving drugs. Two of her other kids had been taken away in the past between 2001
and 2006. And, DCF had already investigated two neglect cases involving the mother and Bella.
PINSKY: Karamo, and they closed those cases. And, she had two other children taken away from her. And, they have investigated this child and
close it, and now we have a dead child.
KARAMO BROWN, T.V. HOST: Well, I mean, social services -- once the services are provided, they are going to close the case. That is what
happens here. And, so, if the services were provided, this mother was found to be in a place where she could take care of the children, that is
going to happen.
So, we cannot blame those past cases. And, plus, DCF is over worked. Those individuals have so many cases they are dealing with that at this
time, who is to blame here is this crazy psychotic mother. That is who is to blame.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Wait. Wait.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL CONSULTANT: No, no, no, Karamo. No. How many times do we hear that CPS is overworked? In this case, I actually
read they have a lot of money, but it is how they are using that money. And, we are always so shocked when this cases happen.
Look, this woman had a drug problem, Dr. Drew. Where is the intervention? Where is the help? You are not going to solve these problems if you do not
deal with these parents and get the parents what they need.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: Hold on. Hold on.
BROWN: Of course --
MARTIN: The parents needed help.
SCHACHER: I think it is --
BROWN: DCF did handle this. I am sorry to cut you off, Sam. I read the case, and they said that they did provide her with services. There were
certain mandatory treatments that she had to go to, and she met all of those. So, what do you expect them to do. Do you want them to still come
in and continue to do stuff? This is not Big Brother. They cannot stay there for 24 hours.
MARTIN: Karamo --
SCHACHER: Wait. Wait. Wait. I got to get in here little quickly, because this mother according to a number of different people and a service
that she attended was clean from 2011. So, I think it is way more than just drugs.
MARTIN: No.
SCHACHER: She had restraining order against her.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST AND PSYCHOANALYST: OK. You are talking about the parents and the little girl, but let me set a scene for what that
house must have looked like --
PINSKY: Yes.
MARSHALL: -- when DCF workers came in. There was probably trash all over the floor. The parents were drug addicts. Look at Bond, the mother looks
like an opioid addict.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree.
MARSHALL: Do not you agree, Dr. Drew? -- Or meth, one of those drugs?
PINSKY: Yes. It is bad, bad addiction. I mean, listen, there is probably addiction over a long period of time. A trauma survivor. She had
prostitution history. That is how you fund the drugs. And, then she has a failed marriage. She has two other kids and she ends up with this schmuck.
You know, this --
MARSHALL: Exactly.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MARSHALL: But, Drew -- OK. So, you are the DCF worker. You walk into that house. There is trash all over the place. You have a malnourished
child. I saw the pictures of Baby Bella.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MARSHALL: It was obvious she was being abused. She has bruises under her eyes. And, so, you have two drug addicted parents, who believe this child
is unconditionally bad and resent the child for having needs.
[21:05:06] And, that can easily be picked up in an interview. DCF workers with the parents, all they have to say is tell me about Bella. Tell me
about your little girl. And, what they would have picked up on was a cold, calculated attitude. They lack
BROWN: That is not always true. DCF workers are going to these homes all the time --
MARSHALL: Yes, because parental abusers always -- you can always tell in how they talk about their child.
PINSKY: It begs the issue, is there anybody here amongst the five of us that would give the mom any sort of pass?
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: Is there a condition, where a mom --
MARSHALL: No way.
MARTIN: It is not --
SCHACHER: A different condition. Not this one. Not this case.
PINSKY: Answer the question, because I heard, no, no, and I have not even finished my question yet, and you guys are saying no, which is there any
situation in which the maternal instinct is so severely either beaten or abused or drugged or Stockholm syndrome or all of the above. These two are
still staring me down with a no.
MARTIN: Yes, there is, Dr. Drew.
MARSHALL: Absolutely not --
MARTIN: There absolutely is a condition under which this mother could have been so traumatized by her past, by the drug use, by the prostitution, by
men that prey on women like this that she was in fear of her life. We heard that --
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew. OK. Hold on Areva.
MARTIN: Wait a minute, Sam.
SCHACHER: I love --
MARTIN: Wait a minute. The man said, I killed the daughter and you are next. So, he threatened her life as well, but it was not just about the
child. It was about that entire house.
SCHACHER: That is what she told the police. Hold up, because there are facts here. The facts are she used to lock this kid in a closet for up to
an hour at a time.
PINSKY: She? She did.
SCHACHER: She. She did. She was the one that laid her hands on this child. She was the one that had multiple restraining orders against her
from her own parents. This is not, in my opinion, a battered woman. This is a bad person.
MARTIN: That is my point. It is a battered woman. You talk about maternal --
SCHACHER: She is beating her kids.
MARTIN: You talk about a maternal instinct.
MARSHALL: Can I comment here.
MARTIN: A maternal instinct would not lock a child in a closet. It would protect the child --
PINSKY: Guys, I have to go --
MARTIN: Since this woman has been battered.
PINSKY: I have to go to Danine. Danine, I barely got out to you. You deal with people like this, I am sure in your work. Tell us what your
thoughts are.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I am telling you. I have not heard a shred of evidence or a shred of inclination that leads me to believe that
this man even has a reason to be in jail for this, honestly.
PINSKY: The man?
MANETTE: All we have heard --
PINSKY: The man?
MANETTE: The man? The one who is in custody. All we have heard is from a crack head who has a history of lying, a history of child abuse, a history
of child neglect, some criminal activity, ran to the cops first and told some story about the kid being punched.
And, that has not been substantiated by what the coroner said that there was no bodily injury. We have heard telling a story about what he
supposedly did. But, she is the mother. She is the one that put the kid in the refrigerator next to the mayonnaise and the milk bottles. I have
not seen --
PINSKY: Hold on. I got -- You guys have to watch me, because we all have very strong feelings about this. Bethany, finish that thought.
MARSHALL: OK. I am a Ph.D. not a J.D. and, what I see with a maternal neglect is when a mother neglects child or abuses the child on some levels,
she does not want the child around.
PINSKY: OK. Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I mean it is obvious here. The mother is obviously a crack head, issues are there. I feel like the system
has let this girl down.
SCHACHER: Yes. That is true.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We have literally more protection for animals out there than we seem to have for a child, for people.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BROWN: I absolutely disagree with that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hold on. Hold on. If we left a dog in a hot car, you know for a fact like there would be all kinds of rules,
restrictions, people, "Oh, my God the dog." And, here we have this kid, where is all that? Where is all these --
PINSKY: But Karamo has been a social --
BROWN: I am a social worker before I became a television host. And, DCF does their darnedest work. They go into homes day in and day out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am sure they do.
BROWN: I would like so many of you to try to go into a house and have to try to have to rip a child away from a parent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why would this kid left behind. This kid was neglected. Why would she left behind. If all the other kids were
taken out of the house, why is this kid still left in her parents? --
PINSKY: We are going to -- speaking of leaving, we are going to leave that question out there and we are going to get to it after we come back. The
conversation will continue.
Later on, the same-sex marriage clerk is speaking out tonight in a tearful -- I want to call it disturbing interview. You will see it, after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:0916] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTE: Rachelle Bond and her boyfriend, Michael McCarthy, both charged in connection with the death of Rachelle`s daughter
2-year-old Bella.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID DEAKIN, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She went to her daughter and picked her up and she told police that she knew at that moment that her
daughter was dead. She asked Mr. McCarthy what he had done. He did not tell her, but he said, "She was a demon anyway. It was her time to die."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEWTRELL: I hope you rot in hell. You rot in hell. You (EXPLETIVE WORD) in hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bella Bond would have turned 3 last month. Prosecutors say her mother`s boyfriend murdered the child. The mother assisted in the cover-
up. Back with Sam, Areva, Karamo, Danine and Bethany. Should this woman - - I will ask a crazy question. It is obvious she should not have had more kids, right?
MARTIN: No.
PINSKY: She should not have more kids. We all agree about that?
MARTIN: We all agree.
PINSKY: She did not want this kid. But, what can we do? I mean if you want to look at the biggest problem our society has, it is screwed up
people having problematic kids, having kids that are products of abuse or do not survive childhood.
MARTIN: It is intervention, Dr. Drew. That is what we have not heard about in this case. We have heard about her being arrested. We have heard
about her being charged. But, we have not heard about the intervention. What kind of help was provided by CPS not just for the child.
But, you know, Karamo, there is something called wraparound services, where you go into a home, and you help the child, you help the parents and you
teach parenting. And, you teach parents how to do better, how to protect their kids. We have not heard about that in this case, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: But, Areva, let us -- you and I deal with cases like this, yes? What is the probability of sobriety? Zero. What is the probability of a
thriving life for Ms. Bond, the woman?
MARSHALL: There is no possibility of thriving life.
PINSKY: Yes. Almost zero. So, the kind of --
SCHACHER: So, meek, Dr. Drew.
MARTIN: So, why do you do what you do if you do not believe in intervention?
SCHACHER: Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, there are ways to manage this.
BROWN: I have to say, it is managing.
PINSKY: I asked very specific questions. I asked, you know, what are our goals? What are our outcome expectations? To say we should give this
woman parenting lessons, it is just no way. This is somebody who needs to be probably replacement therapy.
[21:15:05] MARTIN: But, would you take the child out of the home.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: And, you help the parent get stronger. So, hopefully, she can, if she cannot keep the child safe.
MARSHALL: I agree with you. I think, Areva, you need to lower your expectations. When these women are pregnant, they do not even know they
are pregnant. They continue to use drugs.
MARTIN: For these women --
MARSHALL: Areva, you are going to have to --
MARTIN: -- that is condescending.
MARSHALL: -- stand over this woman with a condom. That is what you are going to have to do if you do not want her to get pregnant. OK? That is
the only intervention.
PINSKY: Well, we can put IUDs in.
MARTIN: How condescending is that?
PINSKY: We can inject with progesterone. There are things we can do. It is not condescending.
MARTIN: There is a little something called the constitution. So, when you all thinking about, you know, making women infertile, that is what we did
in the early 1900s.
PINSKY: No. She was lying. She did not want the child, we have decided, right? I mean --
MARSHALL: That is not the point. The point is the child was an "It." It was a thing. It was a commodity. She might have even had the child to
gain welfare services or to possess or control the child or get the love of a man.
MARTIN: Look at all of these negative assumptions that are being made by this woman.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Hold on --
MARTIN: You do not have any history. You do not have any facts to support this. Are you making those assumptions because she used drugs.
MARSHALL: I have a personal history as a psychoanalyst.
MARTIN: How many wealthy women used drugs, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: A lot.
MARTIN: I feel like this is some kind of discrimination against this woman because of her circumstances.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: Let us go to somebody who works --
MARTIN: This sounds very classist to me.
PINSKY: Let me go out to Danine, who works at criminal justice system. Danine, do you have a different impression than we do? We are just trying
to manage expectations. Let me fill out how I would do it, which is I would put on replacement therapy. I would assume there is not any
likelihood of sobriety.
I would have a lot of structures in her life. I would have social services around her for a long time. I would have the child out of the home as much
as possible. I mean if we really had the ability to structure this woman`s life, that is how we would do it, but Danine, go ahead.
MANETTE: Yes. I think we are putting a little bit too much emphasis on what department of social services is supposed to be doing.
PINSKY: Agree.
MANETTE: That woman who was yelling out in the courtroom, where was she when the little girl was locked in the closet for 30 minutes at a time?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BROWN: Yes.
MANETTE: And, you know, that is what I want to know. I want to know about the friend, who was so upset about the child being mistreated that
they moved out. Did they call the police? No. They just moved out.
So, there are a lot of levels. The department of social services is not in the home every day. They cannot be there to see what is going on. But,
there are people that are. So, I think that it is got to be a combination of a little bit of department of social services but a lot of people
stepping the hell up.
SCHACHER: And, not only that, the own father. The own father had never been met her, yet he shows up to court and he is upset.
MANETTE: He is a sperm donor. He is a sperm donor.
SCHACHER: Yes, exactly.
PINSKY: But, Danine -- But he is a sperm donor, but he had some responsibilities.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MANETTE: Right. He is nowhere to be found. He is stepping up now that I guess he looks at a lawsuit possibility. "I was just about to get into her
life."
SCHACHER: Right. Right.
MANETTE: "You know, I found out about it, but I did not call the police just yet." I mean, give me a break. All of these people have
responsibilities.
PINSKY: And, Areva --
MARTIN: Not just department of social services.
PINSKY: And, Areva, you were asking to sort of spread the responsibilities around to the men that abused this woman and probably the dad that
abandoned -- the dad that abandoned --
MARTIN: Absolutely. The family.
PINSKY: What happened to her child -- and I thousand percent agree with you as a way of understanding that. But in terms of helping people take
responsibility for their lives, let us hold them accountable. But, ultimately it is the person -- this woman, and this man, we have to hold
accountable.
MARTIN: If the woman is healthy and capable, Dr. Drew, that is what we are missing here. This woman was not capable of caring for this child.
PINSKY: Now, you sound condescending.
MARTIN: No.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You sound condescending.
MARTIN: But, we saw that the child was abused.
PINSKY: I agree with you. Yes. I agree.
MARTIN: So, the woman needed help, so that she could be a better parent --
SCHACHER: But, where --
MARTIN: That involved CPS, that involved family, that involved friends. And, I disagree, Danine, that involves a village. It takes a village to
raise a child. And, we do not know what this woman`s background is.
PINSKY: What was Danine saying? Danine was saying that.
MARTIN: Well, she was saying a little less CPS and I say a little more CPS in cases like this.
PINSKY: Well, how about a little more family, a little more clergy, a little more church.
MANETTE: Right.
MARTIN: -- they exist. These are very classist statements. How do you know this woman has that kind of family structure?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: They are in the courtroom screaming at her.
SCHACHER: You, guys, should have, could have, would have, there is a baby that is dead right now. So, I am sorry. Somebody needs to be held
accountable. From what I see from the facts that I see, the mother is absolutely responsible. And, meanwhile, this baby will not have a shot at
life because of her.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: And, Bethany --
MARSHALL: I can say --
PINSKY: Let me say, the boyfriend keeps talking about the child being possessed.
MARSHALL: Yes.
PINSKY: According to her, which we do not know if she is a reliable source or not --
SCHACHER: According to her.
PINSKY: She keeps talking about the husband`s -- or the boyfriend`s saying that this child is possessed. I do not -- You know, we often on this show
will say, we will say, "Well, they are psychotic. It is mental illness. They thought they were doing something good, but they were confused." I do
not get that this is a situation like that at all, because I think that is just some sort of way this man justified maltreatment of the child.
MARSHALL: It is the Andrea Yates` story. Was she psychotic and schizophrenic and that is why she killed her children or was she homicidal?
The fact is it is not binary. It is not one or the other.
He could have been psychotic, doing drugs and wanted the child out of the way. So, we will not know until we do an individual assessment, which way
it is. But, primarily, I think this child, the care of the child interfered with the drug money.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, ma`am.
MARSHALL: Let us just call it what it is.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, I am getting sick of hearing about DCF, what they should be doing. They interfered my life one
time with my 14-year-old daughter that was depressed, because she broke up with her boyfriend.
[21:20:01] And, the school tried to called her a pet team and I took her out of school. And, they invaded my life for six months until I brought in
human rights to it. But, they cannot take that kid out of a garbage-filled home.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, let me stop you. But, she brings up a very important point, which is -- I hope they tried to keep you and your daughter together, yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I would not let them in.
PINSKY: OK. But, that is one of the goals of DCF has had.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: And, we all agree that is a worthy goal, which is, you know, of children that are ruptured from their parents are really at risk of trouble
later. But, that is how we end up with stuff like this. It is walking that balance, not interfering in your life but interfering in this woman`s
life. That is a hard balance.
BROWN: Well, that the point I was trying to make before, Dr. Drew is that it is very easy for us all now to say that DCF should have been playing a
different role.
PINSKY: We are all Armchair Quarterback.
BROWN: Yes. Exactly. But, it is like, imagine trying to go into someone`s home and trying to rip their child away. The goal of DCF is to -
-
MARTIN: That is what we are trying to do.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: -- to be there and support. And, then you have to take half a second in what you are seeing and try to decide if this child is in danger,
if they are malnutrition, if there is abuse on them. What is really going on and paint his picture and take this child away from their mother, which
can be really hard.
PINSKY: Here is -- Karamo, here is what all people take right from this conversation. We flipped -- This is a horrible, horrible tragedy. It is
so easy for us all to react to this. So, amazing points were raised including what if this were an animal. Somehow, we would react even more
powerfully to that.
But, we flipped this thing around many different ways, ways that seem perhaps harsh, and polemic, and maybe even insensitive. It is to look at
this thing how complex it is. It is a complex problem.
We need to do better. We need to all edge and get ourselves about things like this, so we can be the family, and the community that intervenes on
behalf of the Bellas of the world. So, this does not have to go to DCFs.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Next up, Kim Davis explains herself in an exclusive interview tonight and makes some, again, startling plus disturbing admissions. We are back after
this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:56] JUDY HO, PH.D, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: She is not fit for duty.
RYAN SORBA, HEAD OF THE YOUNG CONSERVATIVES OF CALIFORNIA: No. No. No.
HO: She literally cannot carry out one of the main tasks of her job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SORBA: came to Kentucky to Rowan County to -- it is specifically with the video cameras in hand to harass this poor woman. They could not wait until
legislator came back in session, so that they can solve this constructively. They wanted to make an example out of her to intimidate
Christians the country into being afraid to stand up to the gay-stoppo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: All of you are missing the point. She is staying around because she is getting parades
and she is getting attention and she is getting as many death threats as she is getting as many times as someone has called her Hitler.
20 more people have called her what a beautiful specimen she is and she is doing the Lord`s work. And, there is people showing -- look at that. I
mean that is a rock star reception.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, did Kim Davis want to become the face of opposition to same- sex marriage? We are back with Sam, Areva, Karamo. Joining us Ryan Sorba, Head of the Conservatives of California.
Davis is speaking out for the first time since she was released from jail. She probably removed her name from all the marriage documents in her
office, but she sat down for an interview on ABC. Here is what she told them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM DAVIS, ROWAN COUNTY CLERK WHO REFUSES TO ISSUE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LICENSES: They are not valid in god is eyes, for one. And, you know, I
think the authority, I have given no authority to write a marriage license. They did not have my permission.
They did not have my authorization. I have friends who are gay and lesbians. They know where I stand, and we do not agree on this issue and
we are OK, because we respect each other.
PAULA FARIS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: So, you would deny your friends, who are in gay relationships? You would deny them a marriage license as well?
DAVIS: I did. I cannot put my name on a license that does not represent what God ordained marriage to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Areva, she gets to define marriage? Is that who we go to? Or the Supreme Court got to do that? The constitution got to do that? The
state got to do that? Who do we go to define marriage?
MARTIN: I think Ms. Davis has made herself the Supreme Court. She has made herself the jury, the judge, the legislature. She is wearing all the
hats.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, she is speaking with such authority on national television. And, she has just forgotten about the oath that she took to obey the law as a county
clerk elected by the people in that community. She just said forget about all of that, forget about the constitution, the Supreme Court. It is me
and God.
PINSKY: Now, Ryan, we heard your voice in the intro talking about how this might have been a set-up by somebody. But, let us drill down to what Areva
just said. She took an oath, which, by the way, God would --
MARTIN: Probably on a bible.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Everybody, she took an oath to uphold the law of the land such as it is, not to follow her whim or her religious values. Follow the law of
the land. How do we reconcile it?
RYAN SORBA, HEAD OF THE CONSERVATIVES OF CALIFORNIA: Dr. Drew, she got stuck between a rock and a hard place. A. North Carolina. B. Utah. They
both carved out -- wait, what are you laughing at?
(LAUGHING)
They both carved out ways that a clerk or a magistrate can opt out of granting marriage licenses. Furthermore, they dictate that a certain
number of hours have to be provided for gays and lesbians to be able to go get marriage licenses. So, therefore, Utah and North Carolina had figured
this out. I do not even know, why this is a debate right now.
SCHACHER: I do not know why it could not be a debate right now, either. Because she is -- first of all, this is not in Kentucky. OK?
MARTIN: Thank you.
SCHACHER: And, she is --
SORBA: Well, it is between the rock and the hard place.
SCHACHER: OK. She is an elected official. And, her constituents voted her in. Her constituents taxpayer dollars are paying for her salary. And,
it is not up to her whether or not that she wants to grant a marriage certificate or not. She cannot just go ahead and think that she can uphold
the constitution depending on what works for her.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me review also and remind everyone that she has been criticized. She has had three divorces, adulterous relationships, children
out of wedlock, and she commented about that. She took that on. The interviewer brought that up. Here is what she told ABC about her past. I
guess she called them indiscretions, mistakes.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: My constituents elected me, but the main authority that rules my life is the Lord.
FARIS: So, Godly authority trumps all authority in your mind?
[21:30:01] DAVIS: Yes. You know, I have not always been a good person, Paula. When I did not live for God, I did not live for him. I was real
good at living for the devil.
FARIS: You have been married four times.
DAVIS: Yes.
FARIS: You had children in adulterous relationships. People are calling you a hypocrite. Are you?
DAVID: No. I am forgiven.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. So, she is someone in her own words that was very -- not very, quote, "Good at living for the devil." We know that about her
history. And, now, she has been forgiven. OK. I am all for that. But, now, she gets to mandate the -- subvert the mandates of the Supreme Court
because she is forgiven, is that good enough?
BROWN: No.
PINSKY: Now, I am in the Lord of the law before I was in the lord of the devil -- I am confused. Which is it?
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: We are all confused by this woman, and she is pretty disgusting. She is playing with people`s lives here. As a gay man, I want to go there
and I want to shake this woman.
SORBA: Easy, easy.
BROWN: There are people, who are literally trying to have their lives and live by what the constitution has said now is legal for us. And, you are
sitting here playing devil`s advocate, God told me this and that.
PINSKY: She is.
BROWN: She is. Not you.
PINSKY: Well, let me play devil`s advocate. I am going to play the devil`s advocate. What if she were here to say, "You know, I really have
strong opposition against this. I want civil unions instead of marriages." Why cannot we just -- why she took that position? Help people understand
why civil union is not an OK position.
BROWN: Civil union --
SCHACHER: It is not equal.
BROWN: -- is not equal. Civil unions are not equal to marriage. Marriage protects us under the law with certain rights.
PINSKY: What if civil unions could do the same thing? What if?
SCHACHER: It is still with different class.
BROWN: Well, see, the thing is that we do not have to go with what if, because the constitution now says that we can get married.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, sir, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, at what point do, you know, we call this woman -- I do not know. I mean, I think we should hesitate to attack
her personally or look at her past transgressions.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Just because it is a slippery slope or just because if someone is trying to uphold --
PINSKY: Let us be like the bible, "Judge not, lest ye be judge."
SCHACHER: But, I think she opens herself up to that, because she has become a moralist.
BROWN: Exactly.
SCHACHER: So, that is the only reason why people are --
PINSKY: Like Bill Cosby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, what point do we call her like delusional?
PINSKY: That is how he got in trouble. -- Delusional?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. What point -- I mean she has appointed herself as, you know -- I mean religion, yeah. You do not want
to offend people, but at some point, you know, just because I say that I -- you know, Jesus is talking to me or God is telling me to do these things --
PINSKY: Well, but, to be fair that is why we have a separation, right?
MARTIN: That is why we have a separation. Well, that is why the Supreme Court ruled and she is bound by the law that has been ruled on by the
Supreme Court. You talk about civil unions, Dr. Drew. That ship has left.
PINSKY: No, I know. I understand.
MARTIN: That is over.
PINSKY: I want to hear --
(LAUGHING)
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: The law is pretty clear.
PINSKY: I thought he is going to say that.
MARTIN: And, that she is so Christian and believes in so much forgiveness she wants to say that she has been forgiven, why do not she step aside. If
this is so difficult for her, she can resign.
BROWN: Step aside. That is the main thing.
MARTIN: Someone can be elected that would enforce the law.
PINSKY: Yes, sir. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Simply, she had a job, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, she did not do it.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Who is paying her bills? Us or God.
PINSKY: Taxpayers.
SCHACHER: Taxpayers.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Honestly, if you cannot do your job, you get fired. Well --
PINSKY: Well, they cannot fire -- they could not fire her --
MARTIN: She is an elected official. They cannot fire her. They can recall her, though. They can recall her.
PINSKY: Who does that? The legislature?
MARTIN: Well, the legislature.
PINSKY: They were out.
MARTIN: Well, the people can sign a petition and vote her out.
PINSKY: This is the problem. Ryan keeps talking about the legislators, they were out.
SORBA: Right.
PINSKY: They could have done it when North Carolina did it.
SORBA: And, they are not going to do it, because Kentucky --
PINSKY: No, they are not going to do it, because --
SORBA: -- 75-25 in favor of traditional marriage.
PINSKY: No. But, Ryan, they are not going to do it, because it would have cost the taxpayers a ton.
SORBA: Yes, but how much money did Prop 8 cost? Over $100 million. How many --
SCHACHER: Thank God. Thank God.
SORBA: How much money was flushed down the toilet --
SCHACHER: Thank God for equality.
SORBA: -- from American Citizen by the hubristic Supreme Court that thinks that they are the law of the land.
PINSKY: They are!
SORBA: This is certainly an issue of judicial supremacist --
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: They think that they are the law of the land, Ryan?
SORBA: No. The Obergefell decision applies to the Obergefell case. There is an issue in this country, judicial supremacy. The supreme -- the
legislatures have to pass the laws --
MARTIN: I think I am the only lawyer on this panel.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: Areva, can you get that?
MARTIN: I think I am the only lawyer tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I got to stop this. Stay right there. Do not move. I am going to get a comment from the audience member. The conversation goes on.
Later, pizza rat. A rodent and his dinner caught on tape. It is a viral video. And, we will be back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:34:28] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If you were elected to an office, the law changed and it comes in conflict with your religious principles, what do you do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: I am willing to face my consequences as you all will face your consequences when it comes time for judgment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HUCKABEE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We made accommodation to the Fort Hood shooter to let him grow a beard. We made accommodations to the
detainees at Gitmo. You are telling me that you cannot make an accommodation for an elected democrat county clerk from Rowan County,
Kentucky?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00] SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: What bothers me the most is, she is doing it saying on the authority of God`s authority, like
God is speaking to her to her to defy supreme court mandated law. That is grandstanding, and that is not Christianity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Areva, Karamo and Ryan. Let me ask you a question. If she were to run for re-election in her post in 2019, do you think she
would get re-elected?
SCHACHER: Oh, gosh.
BROWN: I, unfortunately, do. Because, unfortunately, a lot of Americans - -
PINSKY: Ryan?
SORBA: Yes. I mean, marriage won in Kentucky 75-25 percent.
PINSKY: All right.
SORBA: The people are probably worshiping her.
PINSKY: Well, they certainly come out to support her. Yes, ma`am your comment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: My thing is, at the end of the day, there is so much going on in the world, why is this so important? Like
people should love who they love?
SCHACHER: Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: God loves everybody, you know?
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Like there is so much going on. Like God loves me, God loves you. At the end of the day, why do you care so
much who loves who? Like they are living in their own house doing what they love to do. They want to be happy.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Why is Ryan so disgusted?
BROWN: Are you expecting that God does not love everyone?
SORBA: This is an issue --
BROWN: That is ridiculous.
SORBA: This is an issue of religious liberty and first amendment rights. What price are going to put on our constitutional first amendment? What
price?
PINSKY: For her or for him?
(CROSSTALK)
SORBA: For Kim Davis. This is a constitutional rights, freedom of religion --
BROWN: What about my constitutional rights as a gay man? What about --
SORBA: You are telling preaches and you are telling they are not allowed - -
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: -- get married. What about that? It is all right to want to put this for Kim Davis but it is not OK for me. That is the funny part.
PINSKY: Over here.
SORBA: I got a question for you --
PINSKY: No. No, you do not. I did not call on you.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It seems like everybody is being judgmental, and that is in the bible.
SCHACHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We should not judge. Why is everyone judging? If we are going to be Christians or this or that, love everybody.
Love yourself. And, just do not worry about the next person and who they are living with. Like at the end of the of the day, that should how I
feel.
MARTIN: Exactly.
PINSKY: And, again, let us be fair. This is not about sexual orientation or what people are doing the privacy of the home. It is about marriage.
And, people get a lot of feelings about that.
SCHACHER: It is more than that, Dr. Drew. Certain Christians, not all Christians, but certain Christians will use specific parts about the bible
to enforce their own discrimination. Do you see them enforcing selling your daughter into slavery, which is a big part of exodus?
PINSKY: How about if you cheat in a marriage, you get you and the guy, you cheated with, both get stoned?
SCHACHER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
SCHACHER: Pick and choose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The book of Leviticus to which Ms. Davis and those who support her refers, actually says if she wants to show
the courage of convictions it says that, she should not deny them the right to marry. It says that if people are going to one man lay with another,
that you should stone them to death. Yet somehow she is not going to follow that.
SCHACHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: In that case, she is very, very impressed by the law of the land.
PINSKY: First of all, I am happy with that. I am grateful for that.
MARTIN: Glad they are not stoned.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ms. Davis for not --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am simply tired of people that want to drag their religion into a republic, which is protected by a
constitution that says, it is absolutely forbidden --
SCHACHER: Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- for elected officials to try to rule over us based upon their own belief system.
PINSKY: And, Ryan, no one has a problem with her having her own beliefs and speaking about them. It is her doing her job as an elected official
and interfering with the function of our system and our constitution that people getting exercised about.
SORBA: For Christian conservatives, it is an issue of being sick of secular humanist enforcing their agenda down our throat --
PINSKY: Stop. Stop. Is it not -- would you agree that it is progressivism rolling over traditional conservative religious values, yes?
SORBA: I mean --
PINSKY: Yes or no.
SORBA: -- they are mutually contradictory, so yes.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, they are not mutually contradictory. But, the people -- they are tired with the -- they are fatigued by progressivism. Right?
SORBA: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. So, is that maybe where why people are already interested in this, and getting behind her and why people are getting behind Mr. Trump?
And, all of this -- all of this is sort of --
SORBA: Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. So, there is a weird emotional thing going on. People keep asking me, "Why do we care? Why do we care?" I think there is a weird
tension going in our country. Areva, you are looking confused.
MARTIN: Well --
PINSKY: You get what I am getting at?
MARTIN: You are saying people and I think, we should be clear that 80 percent or more people agree with gay marriages. And, that is how we have
the Supreme Court decision. So, we are talking about a very small group of people, who are annoyed, and who are --
PINSKY: Vocal.
MARTIN: -- hiding --
PINSKY: Vocal.
MARTIN: -- and being defiant about the Supreme Court ruling. It is not the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans agree that people
like Karamo and anyone that is gay should be able to marry whom they please and they should not be judged by doing so.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: And, Ryan, I have talked to you many times in the green room. You are a really nice guy. You are a great guy. I do not understand when
she just mentioned gay rights and gay marriage and 80 percent of people are in favor of it and you said no and shook your head and disgust.
SORBA: Because the statistic is wrong.
SCHACHER: OK. But, as a person, as a Christian conservative, can you look at Karamo and tell Karamo that he does not have the right to love someone
and to marry?
SORBA: Karamo, I respect you, but I believe that emotions are fluid. They change and reason is fixed. And, I believe that reason is for guy --
BROWN: Hey, do not try it buddy --
SORBA: I am trying to -- you do not agree with it --
[21:45:00] BROWN: If we are not in this show, this will get personal for me. So, let us not try it for me. Do not ever tell me who I choose to
love and who I am is wrong or something else, because that is not it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SORBA: But, listen. I like -- Listen.
BROWN: We are not going to go down that path right now.
SORBA: Listen, that is what I believe.
BROWN: Because if we have to take a poll, perhaps we are going to show who the better man is here. And, I guarantee you --
SORBA: You do not respect me for my beliefs and that is sad.
PINSKY: Hold it.
SORBA: You do not respect me for my beliefs and that is sad.
PINSKY: OK. Yes, ma`am.
SORBA: That is sad.
SCHACHER: But, no, Ryan --
PINSKY: But, but, but, but --
SCHACHER: You are not --
PINSKY: ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yesterday, my neighbor, who is Armenian, who got in the ship in 1907. She is 92 years old. Her best
friend who took her for a walk every day, it is a gay man who lives across the street and takes care of her every single day. She is a believer. She
is Armenian.
PINSKY: Christian.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Christian.
PINSKY: But she is cool with him having marriage? Privileges?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. Let us leave it right there.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: I think tolerance, acceptance is the message I get from the audience and that is the one I would like to leave with.
Next up, the viral video some of our staffers and the Twitter verse cannot get enough of. It is the pizza rat. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and Instagram feeds. And, it is Sam first.
SCHACHER: OK. I have a viral video of a city bus driver, who was allegedly assaulted by a student, a high school student. Now, just as a
background, the student who is African-American was reportedly upset that a white student was permitted to ride a bus without paying a fare and without
showing proper identification. The African-American student alleged racism. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: How is it racist? You have no I.D. whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE STUDENT: He does not have an id.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: He has an I.D. He has no sticker.
UNIDENTIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE STUDENT: But you did not -- INAUDIBLE
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: He has an I.D.
UNIDENTIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE STUDENT: But, you still made me pay!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: Yes, because you have nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: If you want to get lippy, you can get off the bus.
UNIDENTIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE STUDENT: And I will (EXPLETIVE WORD). You are (EXPLETIVE WORD), so lay off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BUS DRIVER: Really? Fine. Get off my bus. Now. Lay your hand on me. See what happens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PASSENGER: Oh, geez.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Yes. So, that bus driver was taken to the hospital with facial injuries. The teenage boy was arrested and charged as a juvenile with
assault causing bodily injury.
PINSKY: Areva, what do you got?
MARTIN: Yes. It is a night for fights. I have a schoolyard fight.
PINSKY: At Walmart?
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: No, no. Not Walmart.
PINSKY: No.
MARTIN: But, this was caught on tape and it has gone viral. Many questioning the actions of a Georgia police officer, who responded to this
altercation. The fight occurred in Rockdale, Georgia.
We see two students here throwing punches. Then one teen puts the other in a head lock. You can see this on the tape. Now, the officer suddenly
appears. Let us wait. He is going to show up.
PINSKY: Uh-uh, there is the headlock.
MARTIN: OK. There is the headlock. So, here comes the officer. He tases the student with no apparent attempt to, otherwise, break up the fight.
You see, both teens fall to the ground.
SCHACHER: That is insane.
MARTIN: They are motionless. They are ultimately handcuffed, arrested and charged with disorderly conduct. Now, get this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
The police department issues a statement that reads, "We have determined that the officer acted in a manner that was safe for everyone. The officer
felt that this was the safest route to take since he did not know how close backup was. We believe this was the appropriate response." I do not know
how they could make such a statement.
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: Well, you guys, what does he do?
SCHACHER: Break it up. Break it up. Break it up.
MARTIN: Deescalate. Deescalate.
PINSKY: But, he may have been trying that from a distance. You do not know.
MARTIN: No. What we know from this tape is he showed up and made no effort to deescalate. He immediately pulls out his taser and tasers the
students.
PINSKY: Do you think -- is there a word when he thinks that the one is choking --
MARTIN: I think it is the word where he is poorly trained.
PINSKY: It could be.
SCHACHER: I agree. I agree.
PINSKY: I just thank God he did not pull out a night stick or something. You know what I mean?
MARTIN: Or a gun.
PINSKY: Yes. A taser -- I am cool with tasers. Those guys --
SCHACHER: If that was your son, would it be still cool for you --
MARTIN: They need a good civil rights lawyer.
PINSKY: Yes. I would be cool with that. If it were me or my son, he could tase either of us. I am sorry.
MARTIN: Not a good look as a civil rights lawyer. I do not like it.
PINSKY: No. I know, but I would not want that fight to stop now if it is more or my --
SCHACHER: Could he have announced, "Hey, I got a taser. Let us break it up. Break it up."
MARTIN: Can he say something like, "Kids, break it up?"
PINSKY: Yes, he can. Yes.
MARTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: All right.
MARTIN: I think it is a better way to handle it.
PINSKY: Karamo.
BROWN: Well, this one is about probably one of the coolest -- you ladies might think it is the grossest thing ever video that we have ever seen that
has went viral. It is about the New York rat that was taking entire slice of pizza down a subway station.
(LAUGHING)
Now, A New Yorker actually caught this video in the East Village. This was on the L train. And, I am talking about L as in "Lazy," but not this rat,
because this rat is not lazy at all. This is the true epitome of a New York hustler right there.
SCHACHER: That is awesome.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: You are not going to mess this up. So, not only is pizza rat trending right now on Twitter, but people are also saying that this is
inspiring them that the pizza rat should be president 2020. That this is going to be their next Halloween costume. All I know is that pizza rat is
my new favorite rat in the world. He has my vote.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: I want him.
PINSKY: Two comments. One, you spend any time of your subways, you probably seen, if not pizza rat, many of his relatives.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: Yes. Many of his relatives.
PINSKY: Many. Many. Everyone -- And, Sam, tell me what you said during the break?
SCHACHER: I want to make sure nothing bad happened to him. I am scared. I love rats. I do. I am sorry.
(LAUGHING)
[21:55:00] PINSKY: Sam --
BROWN: That rat got his meal, his good.
PINSKY: He has better than us. He had pizza.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: All right, next up, this is a crazy story. This guy is unbelievable. He is a foot sniffer --
SCHACHER: What?
PINSKY: This is a person. That is not an animal. Well, caught in the act. Back after this.
(LAUGHING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: A so-called foot sniffer has been caught in the act. The photo went viral, which helped ultimately lead to his arrest. A 52-year-old
suspect allegedly crawled under tables at the library in Florida International University and was smelling women`s feet.
(LAUGHING)
He was arrested after police were tipped off. He faces several charges including violation of his sex offender registration, which was already in
place. And, guess who the judge is? Recognize that judge?
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: She is the judge who is -- she is presiding over his bail here. Same judge we featured here twice before. She recognized the defendant in
her courtroom, remember?
SCHACHER: Yes. That is right.
PINSKY: He went to high school with. That is right. That is the same woman. Snap Chat, we are there. DrDrewHLN. DVR us and watch any time.
Thank you, audience. Thank you, panelist. Thank you all for watching, we will see you next time.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
END
