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Dr. Drew
A Transgender Woman Says She Was Harassed And Humiliated When An Airport Security Screener Revealed Male Body Parts; A Transgender Woman Flagged For An Anomaly During A Routine Airport Screening; A Colorado Man Is Accused Of Murdering His Wife In Front Of Their Three Children, Now Suddenly Pleading Not Guilty By Reason Of Insanity, Blaming His Murderous Behavior On Candy Marijuana
Aired October 01, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: [21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: DR. DREW PINSKY, M.D., HOST "DR. DREW ON CALL": Tonight a
transgender woman says she was harassed and humiliated when an airport security screener revealed male body parts. You will hear more about that.
Plus, can edible pot make you kill someone? A man accused of murdering his wife insists that is so.
It all starts right now at the "Top of the Feed." A transgender woman flagged for an anomaly during a routine airport screening. She says she
was harassed because she is transsexual. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A transgender woman claims she was discriminated against by airport security while traveling through Florida.
During a full-body scan, an anomaly was detected in her groin area. Despite handing over her I.D., she was detained and thoroughly rescreened
by the TSA while she documented the entire experience on Twitter.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me we have got Sam Schacher, Pop Trigger on Hulu.com; Areva Martin, attorney, legal consultant; Mike Catherwood, my co-host on
KABC Radio 790 and Loveline, and Chain Reaction on GSN, where he is the host.
Anahita Sadaghatfar, attorney of counsel to The Cochran Firm; Jessica Taylor, transgender airline pilot; and Shadi Petosky, the woman
making the mistreatment claims against the TSA. Thank you all for joining us.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY (voice-over): TSA agents calibrate these scanners. I was not aware of this, but apparently the scanners we all walk through, at least one
version of these scanners. They are calibrated for either male or female, based on how you look when you walk over to the scanner. Shadi, am I
right, this is where things went wrong for you?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SHADI PETOSKY, WOMAN MAKING THE MISTREATMENT CLAIMS AGAINST THE TSA: Right. I was walking into the scanner and the TSA agent just looks at you and then
presses either a blue male button or a pink female button.
PINSKY: And, then in your case they pushed female and you did not come through the scanner as female? They would not send you back as male?
Or what -- I am confused.
PETOSKY: Yes. Well, there are boys and girls and birds and bees.
PINSKY: Wait, slow down, slow down, slow down. I am taking notes, Shadi, I am taking notes. Hold on a second. I did not get all -- I did not get
all this in medical school, so hold on a second.
No, but, but let us put it this way. I assume after you went through they offered you a private screening of some type, right, or a search in a back
room? Yes, go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PETOSKY: This issue is that, when they scanned by body as a female body, they -- you could kind of see those yellow marks. The yellow mark
goes right over a clock -- a crotch.
PINSKY: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PETOSKY: And I told them that that was my penis, and that I was transgender. And then the problems started happening when the TSA
agent said, "Oh, you are a man. I should have scanned you as a man."
And I said, "I am not a man. I am transgender." And, then he started saying, "Are you a woman or are you a man? Are you woman or man, in front
of everyone?" And, so I asked for a supervisor.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: OK, well, which you are entitled to. Sam, you are groaning at this.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST POP TRIGGER, HULU: I just feel so bad because, if people would just come from a place of empathy and learning, and I
think this TSA agent comes from obviously a place of ignorance.
And, the most outrageous part of the story for me is she had such a courage to go on Twitter and say, "Listen, we need to have sensitivity training, we
need to have procedures to help transwomen, transmen, go through these security procedures at the airport.
And, then what happened was people started to victim blame her. People started to say that she was not complying, which was never the case. And,
people were using that as a way to discriminate against her and other trans people.
PINSKY: Shadi, stay with me. I going to walk through this gently, and you tell me, and Jessica you help me too, especially when I get off track here.
JESSICA TAYLOR, TRANSGENDERED AIRLINE PILOT: Sure.
PINSKY: That, that -- let us just for the sake of conversation say that you recognized they had a policy problem, rather than make an issue of this
as you are walking through it that day, get on your plane, forget it and then come back like now, and then try to raise a stink about it, rather
than right there. My understanding is you actually missed your plane, is that right?
PETOSKY: Yes. Well --
PINSKY: Why raise the issue right there and then.
PETOSKY: Well, I will tell you. Because, since my penis set off the scanner, I had to go in for additional pat down. And, so they did that,
and then they swabbed my hands, and then they detected explosives. Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: We are with you. OK.
PETOSKY: So, then I said, "That is really convenient that this happened." And, then I had to go into a private screening room. Get a full-body
screening, have all my luggage checked, and then they detected explosives again.
[21:05:02] PINSKY: Jessica, help me with this. What was that?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
TAYLOR: This is complex. This is where it really starts to unfold in this room right here. Because we are talking about explosives. Now, if we look
back in the airline history, there is a couple of different people that decided to make their names known as the Underwear Bomber.
PINSKY: Yes.
TAYLOR: That is one of the biggest one. I think his name was Amar.
PINSKY: So, this is why Shadi ended up in trouble, because of the Underwear Bomber, yes?
TAYLOR: Well, people like the Underwear Bomber, where we have had people try to hide explosive devices in certain parts of their body or maybe in
their shoes, that would lead them to believe that this person needs a special screening.
PINSKY: But let me, let me flip it back to take a different position, Jessica, and say, "Really, just because they saw a penis they think there
is an explosive."
TAYLOR: No, absolutely not. It is, it is the combination, that there was something -- there was an anomaly, and then we get the second theory on
that that this has happened. Now, the problem with this is, is where it goes from there.
Where they say, "OK, there is an anomaly. You want a private screening?" "OK, let us go do the private screening. Let us get this done." They did
not offer that in that fashion. They said, "Hey, let us send you back through as a man."
PETOSKY: Right.
TAYLOR: That is the problem. That is like saying, "Hey, listen you are a white person, we are going to push the African-American button and you
need to go through that scanner too." And, that is the same type of thing.
PINSKY: Anahita.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY, OF COUNSEL, THE COCHRAN FIRM: That is how scanners work though, Dr. Drew. And, I sympathize with her. She did
not have to go through that, and I am no fan of the TSA by any means.
PINSKY: Well, I am, they try to keep us safe.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SADAGHATFAR: Well, they miss 95 percent. They miss 95 percent, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: I know they are hassle. They are a pain in the butt.
SADAGHATFAR: That is a whole other debate. That is a whole other debate. And, the reality is though we live in a post 9/11 world.
PINSKY: Yes.
SADAGHATFAR: They cannot take chances. There is no opportunity here to risk, and just take this woman`s word for what she is saying this was.
I think that, you know, at the end of the day, she has a right. I think she should have complained after, but the TSA security checkpoint is not
the place to raise transgender sensitivity issues or awareness, I am sorry.
PINSKY: Areva, is that true?
SEDAGHATFAR: I just do not think so.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND AUTHOR, LOS ANGELES: I totally disagree with her. It absolutely was the right place for her to raise an issue. She
has a right to be treated by the sex that she identifies with the gender that she identifies.
PINSKY: In that moment? No matter.
MARTIN: In that moment.
SCHACHER: Yes. How embarrassing.
MARTIN: I do not get to be black today, but not black when it is not convenient for me. I am black always.
PINSKY: Hang on. This man wants to agree with me. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, same thing. Like how come she was not open when they -- if she would have been open. The TSA was doing their
job, man.
SCHACHER: She was open, though, that is the problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: She told them she was a transgender?
SCHACHER: Yes, she -- right from the get go.
TAYLOR: Yes, right away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK.
TAYLOR: Right away.
SCHACHER: She said I am trans and I have a penis. An, I think where it has been misconstrued in the media and on social media is people
are immediately saying she was not complying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK.
SCHACHER: That is not the issue. She was complying.
SADAGHATFAR: But did she comply, Dr. Drew? I guess I am not really clear. My understanding was they offered her -- "OK, it is takes 10 seconds, let
us recalibrate the machine. Go through as a male." It is my understanding she said, no.
PINSKY: They found explosives on her.
SADAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, I have had to do this. I have had to go through airport screening machines multiple times. My earrings go off.
"OK, ma`am, go back. Walk through. Take your belt off."
PINSKY: Listen, I have had the full -- I have had the full take you in the back room --
(CROSS-TALK).
SCHACHER: I have had that too, guys. Stop it. We all have. Hold on. No. Hold on. We all have. But, you and you are not discriminated against
every single day --
PINSKY: You are right. You are right.
SCHACHER: -- like she is and like other trans people out there.
PINSKY: All right. All right.
SCHACHER: So, I am sorry.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: So, Shadi, what happened? We are, we are trying to figure out what actually goes on. The delay was because of explosives, right?
PETOSKY: Well, yes, but there is a problem that you are talking about me without me.
PINSKY: That is why I am coming to you.
PETOSKY: You are totally wrong.
PINSKY: OK, good. Please, straighten us out.
PETOSKY: I actually -- I did disclose that I was trans immediately when that flagged. And, I actually requested to go back to the scanner and
they could push whatever button they want.
PINSKY: OK. But, but.
PETOSKY: So --
PINSKY: By that point, though, they have done the screening and the explosives showed up. Really, it is the explosives --
PETOSKY: No, no, no. But, before that -- before that I said, "Can I just be rescanned." Because the other issue is, as a -- as a trans woman, like
TSA has a protocol that says, "Whatever I am presenting as, that the officer who pats me down."
But they made me have to choose. And, they made me have to choose between making some woman touch my groin, which I did not want to do, or some man
touching everything else.
PINSKY: Could not you ask for both?
PETOSKY: Ha! They were not -- they were not really -- a lot of questions.
SADAGHATFAR: I am not quite sure what else the TSA could have done in that instance. If they are -- if they are screening her hands and they
find residue, what then do you suggest?
PINSKY: Well, let me ask the pilot. I want the pilot to comment.
TAYLOR: That is what ties their hands. There is two sides to this story and one is the transgender aspect. There is two things in aviation that I
never want to have to deal with. One is a fire on the airplane and the other one is when the flight attendant comes up and says there is something
in the back, we do not know what it is.
That is the one where are hearts sink and we go, "How do we deal with this? We do not know what to deal with this." Now, the transgender side of this,
it stinks. Somebody called out a female woman, a woman, and said you are a man, you are going to go through it as a man. That is trouble.
PINSKY: OK.
TAYLOR: And, that is a civil rights lawsuit in the fine print right there.
PINSKY: Hold it right there, everybody. Stay right, I am going to get you in the audience. Oop-oop-oop, I will get to you. Let us have a quick
break. The conversation goes on.
Later, on we will get into pot. Can pot -- I love this -- can it make you insane? That is what accused wife murderer says. He says, "Yes, it made
him insane." Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:10:05] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A transgender woman says she was harassed by airport security, and she documented her experience on Twitter. During
her screening, an anomaly was detected in her groin area, and she was detained by the TSA for so long she missed her flight.
The TSA says, its agents followed training and protocol for screening transgender travelers, but her Twitter followers say trans people face the
same fight when they fly too.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: The transgender woman we are talking about here was detained by airport security when her genital area or her genital region, tripped off
an alarm because she was passed through the scanner as a female, but she was male. So, we have been arguing whether this was discrimination or just
proper security policy.
I am back with Sam, Areva, Mike, Anahita, Jessica, and we have Shadi, the woman that was in this situation. And, Mike, you want to make a comment?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST "LOVELINE", KABC RADIO, AND "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: I am just, you know, frankly I can empathize, because I have actually
had to go through this --
[21:15:03] PINSKY: Stop it. I know what you are --
CATHERWOOD: -- in the opposite direction because I went through as a man, and they saw me and they realized there was so little in my pants.
PINSKY: They thought you were a female. OK, I get it.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: Sir, I am sorry.
PINSKY: Let us, let us --
CATHERWOOD: Sir, can you go back again.
MARTIN: This is a serious issue, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: I am just saying, I could use a genital anomaly. That is all I am saying.
(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me go out to my audience. Yes, ma`am. What do you got there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I do not think that this is any way comparable to being black because as a machine is designed to identify me
as black when I walk through it, it is going to identify me as black.
This person was born a male so, when they say, I am a woman, scan me through as a woman, it is going to find that you are male. That is why the
machine went off. It has nothing to do with you and I getting equal treatment because you are born male. You do not have a vagina.
PINSKY: And, Shadi, I think we are going into the weeds here a bit and getting lost in your story. That was not what you were concerned
with, right?
PETOSKY: No, that is -- it is funny that everybody thinks it is about concealment. Trans people are always being criticized for our being
frauds or concealing something.
I can go through as a male or female, whatever gets me through quickly. No one asked me. A TSA agent looks at me, pushes a button, and then makes me
responsible for their guess. It is not fair.
PINSKY: But, but then --
SEDAGHATFAR: What do you suggest they should have done? I mean no one is answering that question? I sympathize with you. I do -- I do agree it was
traumatic for you, but it seems to me they have a very clear policy. The policy is fair.
They said, if you are transgender, you can request a private screening. You can have a witness in the room with you. You can request to have a
supervisor with you. What -- what other means can they provide to transgender people that would be fair to you?
PINSKY: Well, Jessica, you -- you said where the rubber hits the road is this civil rights issue. So pick it up --
TAYLOR: And, that is what it comes down to. The TSA has no policy when it comes to transgender people. That is where the civil rights issue stands.
SEDAGHATFAR: I thought it was on line. I thought it was on line.
SCHACHER: It was removed.
TAYLOR: No. There is nothing --
SCHACHER: It was removed since 2012 it was removed.
TAYLOR: When it comes -- when it comes to an identification feature such as your driver is license, the policy states, "You must answer identifying
questions, other identifying questions." There is nothing when it comes to your physical appearance.
I have gotten line after line after line on my Facebook, Jessica, "What do I do as an airline pilot?" And, I can tell you right now, there is no
answer. We need answers and the TSA needs to answer this now, and it needs to be done.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: As a former flight attendant, and I flew during 9/11, and I climbed into overhead bins and looked for bombs.
So, the fact that you have to go through a scanner, so be it. Safety is first. That is what TSA is there for.
SCHACHER: Here is the thing though.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: If you make your lifestyle choices, yes, they should be respected; but you need to understand it is not about
you, it is about the safety of everyone that is flying.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: OK, hold on. First of all -- first of all. No, it is not about -- you guys are missing the point. It is not -- first of all, it is not
a lifestyle. It is not a lifestyle issue, but the point here is how do we, how do we do better? How do we implement additional procedures to -- so
that they are inclusive to trans people? How do we do better?
It should not be about TSA being wrong or this person being right. Because I do not think the TSA agent, hopefully, was not malicious about that. I
do not think that at all, and I am grateful that they are looking out for our security, but we can do better.
PINSKY: Areva?
MARTIN: I think you are conflating the issues. I have not heard her say that she had an issue with them testing her for this residue that may
have been related to, to an alleged bomb.
The issue is about how they treated her and forced her to identify with a gender that she does not identify with, and no one should be publicly
humiliated or forced to identify with a gender that they are not.
She should be recognized as a woman, if she says she is a woman. Now, the bomb issue is totally separate. We all can agree that, if there was some
residue of bombs, then check it out because we agree safety is paramount.
PINSKY: Now hold on. Areva, hold on. Wait. Wait. Wait. What I heard her say -- and, Jessica, straighten me out again if I am wrong.
TAYLOR: Sure.
PINSKY: Is that she could not go through, she was not willing to make a selection for the private screening because she did not want a male
screwing around with her genitalia -- no, she did not want a male -- what was it? She did not want someone her touching her breasts and she did not
want somebody else touching her genitalia.
TAYLOR: And that is --
PINSKY: She would have had to have both a male and a female and they were not willing to give her that option.
TAYLOR: Yes, and that is the worst part. I mean, I have to go back to this comment where this lifestyle choice. That is the problem that I deal
with every single day on this planet, is standing up in that cockpit and people thinking this -- this is a choice.
SCHACHER: Yes.
TAYLOR: This is not a choice. And, and that is what I do in America is educate people that this is not a choice. It is something that is
genetic and very deeply ingrained in me. Now, we are back to the transgender issue -- or the TSA issue. This is the problem. We have a
transgender person sitting in the security area.
How many people do you think, after she got shamed, want to go flying with that person? Not to mention the flight crew that is coming in behind,
seeing her get this special screening. What is up with this person? Maybe that made the flight crew uncomfortable about her getting on the airplane.
This is a complete, complete turnover of civil rights, and this is what needs to change now.
[21:20:09] PINSKY: Yes, sir.
SCHACHER: I agree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I feel that she has the right to conceal her gender. I mean that is her civil liberties that were violated. So,
that is the way I feel about that.
PINSKY: I suppose you could.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is incorrect. At some point --
(CROSS-TALK)
SCHACHER: She never concealed her gender, though.
MARTIN: She was very honest.
PINSKY: Wait, Anahita. Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: There has to be a balance between public safety versus someone`s individual personal interest. I agree with Sam. I
definitely think that TSA could do better. But, I am sorry to say that her feelings, her little humiliation does not outweigh hundreds and thousands
of people`s potential lives being secured.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: And, by the way, I have had -- I have had -- Let me say, I have had the TSA screening. Have you ever had that screening where they put you in
a room? It is intense. They are slipping behind everything.
(CROSS-TALK)
MARTIN: I think you marginalize this, Anahita, when you say her little feelings.
TAYLOR: Thank you.
MARTIN: Because this is bigger than just what happened to this one woman.
PINSKY: No, but -- but hang on --
MARTIN: This happens to transgender people all the time.
PINSKY: Wait, wait.
TAYLOR: No. This happens to people all the time.
(CROSS-TALK)
MARTIN: -- civil rights, and they have an absolute right to choose the gender and be identified for the gender that they choose. So, let us use
this as teachable moment, rather than to say this is a little feelings.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you.
TAYLOR: No, but here is the thing.
SEDAGHATFAR: No one is going to disagree. Hold on, let me just say I do not disagree with you. I think that is a very astute observation, but let
us address this issue somewhere aside from the TSA security checkpoint.
We are living in a very dangerous world right now and it is really -- I think it is putting a lot of people at risk to take someone`s word for what
they say is OK --
PINSKY: And I want to say. I -- I got to say.
SEDAGHATFAR: Can you imagine the liability, Dr. Drew, if they let her go, God forbid, and there was some type of --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: You are missing the point.
MARTIN: But you are changing the fact, Anahita. She did not want to go without being checked. She was willing to --
SEDAGHATFAR: She wanted a man and a woman, right?
MARTIN: -- She had a penis, and she was willing to go through the check point. She said push whatever button you want to. That is what she said.
TAYLOR: That is right here is the, here is the worst part about this is she is literally getting shamed in front of all these passengers.
PINSKY: That is what she was saying.
TAYLOR: No, here is the problem. You are telling me that there could have been a bomb, and that is great. She was willing to do the
additional screening. She just wanted to be respected as a human being.
SCHACHER: Thank you. Thank you.
TAYLOR: That is really the problem.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I agree with you 100 percent, I agree with you 110 percent. But, I think it is the way it was approached. The
interrogation --
PINSKY: It is. I agree with you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: That is wrong.
PINSKY: Right, right. It was the lack of choice. It was the public humiliation and let us just all agree on one thing.
SCHACHER: And, let us just all agree with that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, let us work on that
PINSKY: Let us -- yes. I think.
CATHERWOOD: I think --
PINSKY: Oop-oop-oop, I am going to leave, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: OK.
PINSKY: We got to leave it. And, I am just going to say.
SCHACHER: Not another Mike joke?
PINSKY: No, not another Mike joke, a small penis joke from Mike, no. We have to -- we have to do better. But, listen, I do not like it when
they start taking me in a back room and calling me by name, by the way. They know who I am, but they are still are going -- yes, they are still
going into every crevice.
And, you know what, that is my -- you know, but that is my responsibility, my civic responsibility is to comply with all this. So, Shadi, I will ask
you, please, on behalf of everybody, thank you for complying with it. Thank you for raising these issues. Jessica, as always, thank you as well.
What is the matter?
TAYLOR: She wants to say something.
PINSKY: You want to say something, Shadi? Go ahead.
PETOSKY: Yes, I am sorry. First of all, I totally accept you, Mike. I want you to know.
CATHERWOOD: Thank you. I appreciate it.
PETOSKY: But, also a security expert went on record to say that, if the TSA has a flaw in their system that makes them not understand trans bodies,
and has to take trans people in special screenings, terrorists can exploit that by standing in line three people behind this trans person.
PINSKY: I, I --
PETOSKY: This is a -- Yes, a whole community.
PINSKY: Shadi, I have to go to break. I am so sorry, but I -- listen, I appreciate you raising this issue. I am glad we are having this
conversation. We do need to do better, but I really agree with Anahita that we all having to be willing to let go of some of our civil liberties
and do some uncomfortable things that we have for the community safety and the well- being of us all.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, I am willing to have somebody put a finger wherever they want to put it before I can on the airplane, and look behind whatever, and it is not
fun. I will grant that. If you are trauma survivor, by the way, speak up before you get that screening because it will be evocative. You will not -
- you will feel like something bad happened to you. Next marijuana and insanity. That is right, after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:24:12] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 OPERATOR: A report of a domestic violence in progress.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This man is behind bars, accused of shooting and killing his wife while reportedly high on pot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 OPERATOR: Reporting Party verses her husband, has been smoking marijuana.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Sources say Richard Kirk ate medical marijuana and was hallucinating.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 OPERATOR: A wife on an open line, screaming that a male had a gun.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He was hallucinating, scaring the kids, reasonably so, talking about the end of the world, and telling her to shoot him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: And when she refused, police say her husband pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Right after he killed his wife, he walked into his 7-year- old son`s bedroom asked his son to kill him, so that mom and dad could be
together with God.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
SCHACHER: Uh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1911 OPERATOR: Need an ambulance code central, party down. We are going to need homicide.
(END AUDIO CLIP0
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" SHOW: When you hear a story like this where the guy is high on a legal marijuana cookie, how can you
continue to insist that pot be legalized?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That Colorado man is accused of murdering his wife in front of their three children. He is now suddenly pleading not guilty by reason
of insanity, blaming his murderous behavior on candy marijuana, which he would eaten a few hours before. Back with Sam, Areva, Mike, Anahita and,
joining us, Alex Datig, Editor in Chief of the political blog Front Page Index. Alex, pot to blame?
ALEX DATIG, EDITOR IN CHIEF "FRONT PAGE INDEX": Partially. I think edibles are really, really dangerous and I think that 20 years from now an entire
generation is going to wake up and say what in the heck did I do to myself.
PINSKY: But, Areva, is that -- let us say that is factual. Does that mean it should not be legal?
MARTIN: Well, no, and should say, Dr. Drew, that in the state of Colorado voluntary use of marijuana or alcohol that results in a crime like
this, killing someone, that is not a defense. So, he is not going to be able to stand up and use that defense.
SCHAHER: Why?
PINSKY: Well, hold on, you cannot say a substance made me completely psychotic. Therefore, I was insane in those moments?
MARTIN: In the state of Colorado, your voluntary use of that substance is not a defense. Now, what he is saying, the new plea is temporary insanity.
And in the state of Colorado --
[21:30:03] PINSKY: From the drugs.
MARTIN: Well, he is got to show a separate mental condition, mental impairment, that caused him to not be able to appreciate right from wrong.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MARTIN: Inability to do that, his defense goes down and he is convicted of murder.
PINSKY: And this sudden change, Anahita, too.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: It seems like an insanity defense a pretty tall order. And, in my estimation, what really went down here is he was an opiate addict, who
stopped using opiates, then went insane in withdrawal, and the pot did not help any.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: But something like that --
SEDAGHATFAR: Still not a defense. She is right. Voluntary intoxication is not a defense to any crime in this state, in California. It is not
a defense. But if he can prove that he had some other type of mental illness, maybe a reaction to -- what was the drug you --
PINSKY: Opiates.
SEDAGHATFAR: Opiates, right. And that caused him in that moment to not know the difference between right from wrong, that is -- that is a
not guilty by reason of insanity. But, he cannot say, "I ate a pot cookie and I went crazy and I did some wrong. It is like killing my wife.
PINSKY: It is so interesting.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew is completely B.S. This is somebody who had really difficult, extreme marital problems, financial problems, depression. He
also was cognizant enough to go into his room and type in a code in order to get the gun, and utilize the gun and operate the gun, and have a -- talk
to his children.
I really think that he is using this. Now, the opiates withdrawal, fine. But a pot cookie? I have been high on a pot cookie too and I was comatose
on the couch, but I certainly did not want to kill anybody, OK?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MARTIN: It looks like his lawyers did not have a lot of choices. There were not a lot of choices in terms of the defense. And, the insanity
defense often times is used when you have someone that is, you know, involved in some kind of behavior like this behavior.
CATHERWOOD: We can --
MARTIN: But, it does not work --
CATHERWOOD: Weed can make you go insane. I do not know if you have heard Snoop is last album. It is horrible.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
CATHERWOOD: It is horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I just want to say, I mean, pot --
CATHERWOOD: It is horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. Yes, not that pot cannot make somebody with a predisposition to becoming psychotic more psychotic or
psychotic --
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But to reach the threshold to where you can really go out and kill someone, that really takes something that I just
do not think pot can bring you to that level.
PINSKY: But now, I kind of agree with you.
SCHACHER: I agree.
PINSKY: But, Alex, you would say no and you have seen some bad reactions. And let us remind ourselves, the concentrations in some of these edibles
are really wild now, so. And people go insane, they take a bunch of them.
CATHERWOOD: We, all of us, I not -- maybe not all of us -- but we all, most of us have experience where an edible is totally not the same as a bong
load and it make you go coo-coo.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: But you do not kill people. You know what you do? You miss your flight because you are like aah, aah, aah.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING AND LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is about propaganda. It is about making pot look bad, when in fact this -- the whole reason, his whole
defense is not even set up around pot. That is already not the case, he is already not using that as a defense.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. I am so glad he said that because it is so interesting to me that people run to these corner where, oh, this is a
good drug and this is a bad drug. The really bad drug in his story is the opiate story. That is the worst drug in his story, but everyone wants
to make it a pot story. Help me.
DATIG: Well, it is kind of a reverse process of, you know, the gateway process kind of in reverse. Because he went to opiates, quit opiates,
and then went to something else. But is not that the nature of addiction? It go -- you go from one thing to the next.
PINSKY: Sure.
DATIG: I am 16 years in recovery and I know this myself. But in this case I think you are looking at a first degree murder charge and I think
the defense is insanity because they are saying it was premeditated -- that he - - it was premeditated murder so I think the insanity defense is
because of that, although I do think the pot did contribute.
PINSKY: And let me, let me list for you some of his wild behaviors before the shootings. Hallucinating and he was seeing and hearing things
that were not there. Scared the hell out of the kids. He was talking about the end of the world. He was telling his wife to shoot him. Yes,
sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I definitely do not think that weed affects -- you know, you are not going to kill somebody over it. But I did
want to know what you guys think about the whole situation with UFC fighter, Nick Diaz, who just got suspended for five years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Free Nick Diaz.
SCHACHER: Free Nick Diaz, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let me -- and his opponent was tested positive for a performance enhancing drug. He only got suspended one year.
SCHACHER: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And that could actually physically do damage to him. So, I do not know, what do you guys think about that?
CATHERWOOD: But he has a shattered leg, so.
PINSKY: Wait, what happened?
CATHERWOOD: The guy has been suspended. Nick Diaz is being suspended. He is 32 years old. This is, this is essentially the end of his career.
For five years for testing positive for marijuana in a UFC fight.
PINSKY: Well, what if he had taken a pain killer or taken opiates? That would have been OK?
CATHERWOOD: Perfectly. But also he had passed two WADA tests before administering the Quest urine test, which is far less accurate.
PINSKY: But is that because Nevada is so crazy with their.?
CATHERWOOD: Nevada is crazy in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to the athletic world.
PINSKY: OK. I want to bring up on Skype here very quickly --stay right there, do not move -- Charlo Greene, she is a marijuana advocate, founders
of Go Greene. She became famous. Hi, Charlo, I am going to show everybody what you had done on live television. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CHARLO GREENE, MARIJUANA ADVOCATE: And as for this job, well, not that I have a choice, but (EXPLETIVE DELETED) it, I quit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: All right. We apologize for that. We, we will be right back. Mean -- pardon for us.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
[21:35:05] PINSKY: That was, that was Charlo is swan song. Well done. And, since then you have become a full time pot advocate. How are things
going up in Alaska, right? Is that where you are?
GREENE: Yes, I am up here in Anchorage, Alaska, running Alaska is only safe access point. Things are going smoothly. We are launching my non-profit
organization, Go Greene, that is Greene with an E at the end of it, this Sunday. You are more than welcome to swing by the launch party.
PINSKY: And, Charlo, give us you take -- I have only got about 30 seconds. I will keep you on there after we get back, but what is your take on
this story?
GREENE: I think that it is really unfortunate that the usual scapegoat in these sort of situations is being cast again. Marijuana must have made
me do it because what else would have driven me to it? But I think what we really get to see now is the justification behind that sort of defense.
How can you prove that marijuana does any harm? This is what us advocates have been pleading for the government to do. Anyone really. Why are
we being penalized for a substance like this when no one can prove that it is harmful?
PINSKY: Well, Charlo, stay right there and everyone stay there and I am going to keep this going. The conversation continues. But let me just
say the idea that there are good drugs and bad drugs is a flawed idea.
Alcohol, is that a good drug, everybody? Guess what? It is the only commonly used drug that is a carcinogen to almost every cell in your
body, and the withdrawal from alcohol commonly fatal. Is that a good drug?
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: I do not know. Oxycontin, good drug? My opiate addict patients die of that every day. But if you had pancreatic cancer, it is a good
drug. It is going to prevent suffering.
So, stop with the good drugs and bad drugs. Let us just get that, get over that. It is a very unsophisticated idea. And later, there was a pizza rat
that Sam was in love with.
SCHACHER: I love him.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Tonight it is milkshake squirrel.
SCHACHER: Yay.
PINSKY: Sam, it is just for you.
SCHACHER: He is OK.
PINSKY: He is OK. We will be back with more after this.
SCHACHER: Yay.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
[21:40:58] NANCY GRACE: The only thing found in this man is blood was pot- related.
PINSKY: There were empty pill bottles found in his room.
GRACE: Right.
PINSKY: And the fact is he may have -- there is a common thing right now is that people are being dismissed from their medical care because they
get carried away with their opiates, the benzodiazepine, they go into withdrawal. And in fact they use pot to try to deal with the
withdrawal from the op -- from the prescription meds. OK.
GRACE: In this case there is.
PINSKY: Maybe it is.
GRACE: .nothing to suggest that the pill bottles had anything to do with this.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Just because they did not find the drug of opiate in his system, the reason the opiates were not in his system is because he was
in withdrawal from opiates. Richard Kirk killed his wife after -- they are blaming it now on eating pot candy.
He has pleaded not guilty to murder, citing the insanity defense, suggesting the pot may have been the reason that he shot his wife. Back
with Sam, Areva, Mike, Anahita, Charlo, and Alex. And, Alex, out to you real quick.
DATIG: Thanks. You know, I really think that pot is a dangerous drug, and I think we do not know enough about it. But what we do know from
Colorado right now is that edibles are very dangerous.
And I think the people we need to ask are the spouses of people who are addicted to these edibles and to pot. Because what they are going through
every day, they are dealing with psychosis, they are dealing with psychotic behavior, dangerous behavior...
PINSKY: Let me, let me, let me --
DATIG: People are a danger to themselves. And we need to, we need to really validate that part of it and we are not.
PINSKY: Well, you.
CATHERWOOD: Listen, every -- for 185 years almost every single egregious act of over aggressive or violent behavior in this country was fueled
by alcohol. And I do not know why we are sitting here trying to have the argument of whether or not (inaudible).
PINSKY: (inaudible) drugs.
CATHERWOOD: And, listen, I am, I am not going to sit here and pretend like I am some evangelist for weed either, but at the same time I think it
is, it is downright insulting to everyone is intelligence to sit and make the point that we should, we should demonize marijuana and be concerned
about it could potentially do to a generation when, you know, a drug has been decimating our country for two hundred years.
SEDAGHATFAR: Why cannot you demonize both? That is a non-starter for me actually, Dr. Drew. That is a total non-starter for me. Why cannot
you demonize both? Just because you say alcohol is bad, you cannot say that pot is bad?
CATHERWOOD: No, I -- you are right. But she is saying, you know, you need to talk to the spouses of these people who are dealing with psychosis.
How about the tens of millions of spouses who are dealing with a black eye because dad came home when he had tied one on?
SEDAGHATFAR: That is a non-starter.
PINSKY: What you are saying is -- what you are saying is, first of all you want to take me to task, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: I want to take -- exactly because...
PINSKY: OK, but you are -- let me just say what you are saying first.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK.
PINSKY: .which is that why have another problem?
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly. Why add another bad drug?
PINSKY: OK, so what do you take me to task about?
SEDAGHATFAR: OK so you and I have disagreed a lot as to whether or not pot should be legalized.
PINSKY: I have said it is up to the people.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly, it is up to the people.
PINSKY: There are medical problems I am very, very concerned about but ultimately it is up to the people.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. But we did agree we should wait and see what happens in certain states that legalize pot, like Colorado.
PINSKY: Yes, OK.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, so far it is not looking very good, Dr. Drew. I mean, we have see, we have seen different instances as well. It is the truth.
And I think whether or not the people still want it to be legal, that is up to them.
I agree with you. But regulators really need to take this into consideration and figure out what they are going to do, especially
with these edibles.
PINSKY: OK, let us wait. Audience, audience. This woman has been waiting quietly for a long time. Yes, go right ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I think he is just using it as a scapegoat and this is what he wanted to do. And when he took the little
weed candy it just gave him the courage and the excuse to do what he wanted to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Right. And so what she is getting into is the facts of the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It was subconscious already.
PINSKY: . which is this, this guy was a murderer and (inaudible).
MARTIN: Yes, and I think he could have all the problems that you identified that come with drug use, whether it is opiates or whether it is marijuana,
but that does not give him a pass for killing his wife.
PINSKY: Right.
MARTIN: We ought to stay focused on that this guy killed his wife in what appears to be cold-blooded murder.
PINSKY: And, and that is the point you have always made. No matter how loaded you ever got, it did not make you immoral.
CATHERWOOD: Certainly drugs and alcohol have made me make decisions that I would normally make.
PINSKY: Right.
CATHERWOOD: .but never has it made me act outside myself to the point that I would go and kill someone.
[21:45:00] PINSKY: Charlo, I want to go out to her real quick. Charlo, comment?
GREENE: Well I am here speaking as the weed evangelist, and I can say that -- I can, absolutely, I can say that cannabis has done nothing but
add positivity to my life and the lives of thousands of other people that I have met. It is unfortunate that cannabis users are being tasked in
this way. But cannabis, the substance, is being pulled into this, this murder case.
PINSKY: Yes, OK.
GREENE: .when we all know that it had nothing to do with it.
PINSKY: Sam.
SCHACHER: Quick comment to the attorneys. When you see an attorney or a defendant change their plea from first saying, oh, it was the weed, and
now it is insanity, what does the judge think? Because it seems like the defense is grasping at straws at that point.
MARTIN: It happens all the time. And any good lawyer has got to find the best defense possible for their client. And in this case, it is not
looking good for this guy. So come up with an insanity defense or whatever because your job is to get him off.
PINSKY: Alex, I will give you 15 seconds to give me a last thought.
DATIG: Well, I think drugs are bad for you and I think one of the biggest problems we have in this country right now is the intervention process.
Because if we are going to treat addiction like a health problem and not a criminal justice problem.
PINSKY: Moral problem.
DATIG: .then we need to work on the intervention process. And we are not doing that.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Could not agree more. Next up, pizza rat is being knocked off Twitter. Yes, yes, yes, knocked off pizza rat. By milkshake squirrel.
Sam is going to talk about milkshake or going to show some love for milkshake squirrel, I am sure. Back after this.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDIND)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:44] PINSKY: Time for Click Fix where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and Instagram feeds. And Sam is first.
SCHACHER: OK, we have yet another viral video of an airline passenger freak out. This one involves Azealia Banks.
PINSKY: Should get Jessica back in here.
SCHACHER: She is a 24-year-old rapper. She not only dropped the F bomb, but also used a homophobic slur on a male flight attendant.
PINSKY: What, what happened? I have not seen this.
SCHACHER: Well, I am going to show you a video, but then I am going to explain to you what happened before the video. So watch the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
AZEALIA BANKS: Give me my bag.
FLIGHT ATTENDANT: No.
BANKS: Give me my bag. (bleep) Give me my (bleep). Give me my bag.
PILOT: Ma`am, what is the problem?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Ma`am, ma`am I am sorry.
BANKS: I was coming through, he goes "wait." Puts his hand in my face, grabs my bag, and he is like. I am like, come on, you see me trying to
get off the plane. And he pushes me back to let HER through! When I am trying to get off the plane!
PILOT: I understand.
BANKS: I am trying to go home.
PILOT: Everybody wants to go home.
BANKS: Give me my bag. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCHACHER: OK, so what happened here, according to a number of eye witnesses is she was like in row six. As soon as the plane landed she ran to the
front so she could get out first.
But then there was already people in front of her trying to remove their luggage from up above, and that is when an altercation took place because
when she allegedly spit in the passenger is face, started yelling, that is when the, the male flight attendant came over and she called him a
homophobic slur. This was all in first class and she seems like a real first class bitch. Sorry.
PINSKY: All right (inaudible). Areva, what do you got?
MARTIN: Wow, OK, Sam. More girls fighting, so maybe more bitches, I do not know.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
But I have a viral video of a brawl at a Texas high school football game. But it was not the boys who were fighting. As I said, this was girls
who were fighting.
PINSKY: Uh-oh, what happened?
MARTIN: Take a look. After some of these high school games there is this unsanctioned impromptu dance off between the drill teams.
PINSKY: Uh-oh.
MARTIN: Now in this incident you will see a dancer from one drill team goes over and mock performs in front of a girl from the opposing team.
PINSKY: Uh-oh.
MARTIN: So the girl returns and the drill team member turns her back. So she threw some shade and the impromptu dancer hits her in the back of
the head. You see her hit her.
PINSKY: Here we go, it is on.
MARTIN: And that is when the chaos began. All hell breaks out. Fortunately, no injuries, no arrests, but guess what? Neither team will
be performing again.
PINSKY: Aaw.
MARTIN: So they blew it, they blew it. Cannot fight like that.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: But if the, if the bench is emptied at a full ball game, those teams would have been allowed to keep playing. I mean, why do you, why
the drill team getting.?
MARTIN: Well, I would hope if that was a high school football team, those guys would not be playing either. But definitely those girls do not need
to be performing if they are going to act like that.
SCHACHER: I agree.
PINSKY: All right, let us get to the squirrel.
SCHACHER: Yay.
CATHERWOOD: All right. This video is thanks to Mashabe.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CATHERWOOD (voice-over): Pizza rat is reign is officially over. And it is all thanks to milkshake squirrel.
SCHACHER (voice-over): Yay.
CATHERWOOD (voice-over): That is right, milkshake squirrel. Milkshake squirrel went to get some fresh dairy, all thanks to Shake Shack which is
across the street from that trash can, and he just needed a milkshake. That is the bottom line.
PINSKY(voice-over): Look at that thing. That Shake Shack is packed all the time. I bet the squirrel knows exactly what he is doing.
CATHERWOOD (voice-over): Ooooh!!
(END VIDEO TAPE)
CATHERWOOD (on camera): The, the, the person, the person responsible for making that milkshake was quoted as saying "My milkshake brings all the
squirrels to the yard."
SCHACHER: Oh, my God, how long did it take you (inaudible).
PINSKY: We are back with my Click Fix after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:54:43] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Now right now of course we all remember those terrible deaths of the Virginia news reporter and her cameraman who were shot live on TV.
It was just an unspeakable disaster. Well, earlier today a reporter for a CNN affiliate, WTVR in Richmond, Virginia, was at the scene of a triple
murder investigation when this happened. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
REPORTER JAKE: Not identified that suspect yet either.
SECOND REPORTER: Yes, still a lot of questions to be answered here, Jake. But --
(TIRES SQUEAKING)
Jake, are you OK?
REPORTER JAKE: Yes, I am fine, guys. There was just somebody that was peeling out here right in front of the house and I wanted to get out of
the way.
SECOND REPORTER: Do you have any idea if that was related to what is going on? Everybody good?
REPORTER JAKE: Not sure if they have stopped yet. Everybody is fine. They stopped right in front of the house over there and I wanted to just
make sure everything was safe and good to go. So, I, I am fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I do not know about you guys, but I do not blame Jake. I do not blame him one bit.
SCHACHER: Better safe than sorry. I know.
PINSKY: Afterwards he wrote on his Facebook page that he believes the driver saw the crew is truck and the lights and he wanted to quote make
a scene. He added, I am fine and staying vigilant. As well he should.
Thank you, Jake, for entertaining us today, and for looking out for your crew and yourself. Reminder we are on Snapchat. Join us there, drdrewhln.
(inaudible) DVR us so you can watch us any time. Thanks, audience. Thanks, panel. We will see you next time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
