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Dr. Drew
Disturbing Portrait of the Oregon Killer; Officer Punches Woman in the Face. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 06, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:11] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight a disturbing portrait of a killer. This from his own mother. The man who murdered nine people in
Oregon allegedly was on the autistic spectrum and had an arsenal of guns.
Plus, a people officer punches a woman in the face. Look at this -- is there any defense for that behavior. Oh!
It all starts right now with the "Top of the Feed." New details tonight about the Oregon shooter from online posts by his mom some years back -- a
few years back.
They include revelations about mental health issues as we have been saying all along. And guess what? Weapons, weapons, weapons.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEMALE REPORTER: Three years ago under the screen name TweetyBird, his mother wrote quote, "I keep two full mags in my Glock case. And the ARs
and AKs all have loaded mags. No one will be "dropping" by my house uninvited without acknowledgement."
MALE REPORTER: Now you have the mother who seems to know about all of the guns and she herself seems to be a gun enthusiast.
FEMALE REPORTER: "I had Asperger," she says of herself. "I didn`t do so bad. Wasn`t easy but it can be done." Then in parentheses she puts
`(understatement)`.
She also reportedly knew he had mental health issues.
MALE REPORTER: "My son has Asperger`s. He`s no babbling idiot nor is his life worthless. He`s very intelligent and is working on a career in
filmmaking. My 18 years` worth of experience with and knowledge about Asperger`s syndrome is paying off."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Not so much. Joining us Lisa Bloom, civil rights attorney at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for obo.com, Areva Martin, attorney/legal
commentator, Kevin Frazier, co-host "Entertainment Tonight," and Tim Donnelly, guns rights advocate and host of the TimDonnellyShow.com.
Areva, my first question is can this mom who we think may have omitted doing something or may have committed by giving this kid guns, can she be
charged with something?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY/LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Not likely, Dr. Drew, that she`s going to be charged criminally but we should expect and probably will see a
whole slew of civil lawsuits filed by the families of the victims --
PINSKY: On the mom?
MARTIN: -- against the mom, against the estate, against the decedent -- the descendent --
PINSKY: What if there`s nothing there? At least --
MARTIN: -- well we don`t know if there`s anything there. It`s too early (inaudible) loss of income.
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well there`s homeowners` insurance there. That`s why sometimes you can bring a case like this. And look, I`m
reluctant to blame mothers in general --
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: -- especially for things that their adult children do, --
PINSKY: I agree.
BLOOM: But when somebody is giving guns to somebody who`s got mental challenges and is encouraging them to have an arsenal of weapons like this,
you have to ask yourself what`s going on.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: Kevin, I don`t know where you come in on this. This is not the usual "Entertainment Tonight" fare.
KEVIN FRAZIER, CO-HOST ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT: No, it`s not. But, you know, when you look at this situation, there`s not going to be enough money
to bring back any loved ones --
PINSKY: Right.
FRAZIER: -- and the suffering that those people went through. But there is something that has to be addressed in this violent nation that we live
in --
PINSKY: Yes.
FRAZIER: -- and all the rhetoric and the talk has to stop. There has to be action.
FEMALE: Yes.
PINSKY: Well California State can action --
MARTIN: We`ve taken a lot of action. After the Santa Barbara shooting, we had a very similar situation. A student that had mental --
PINSKY: Eerily, eerily similar.
MARTIN: -- very similar -- mental health issues. Family knew about it but couldn`t get him help. Police goes through his apartment and couldn`t
remove the guns even though there was some sense that he was dangerous.
So now under California law starting in January, you, Dr. Drew, as a psychiatric professional, me or you or anyone -- if a family member has
some concerns about a person being dangerous, they`ll be able to go into court and get a restraining order to remove those guns and to prevent that
person from having guns.
That`s a big step forward.
PINSKY: It`s a huge step forward.
MARTIN: A big safety step.
PINSKY: I`ve been begging for that on this show for days. I`ve gotten into it, Kevin, with a couple of other gun advocates who don`t seem to hear
me.
What -- I`m not saying was taking the Second Amendment right or even narrow the Second Amendment privilege in any way, except you should want to get
onboard with that -- to restrict access to people who shouldn`t have it, right? Tim -- sorry, I said Kevin.
TIM DONNELLY, GUNS RIGHTS ADVOCATE: I was in the assembly when that bill was passed and the issue that I have with it is very simple.
You basically have your guns taken away, your Second Amendment right is denied you --
PINSKY: For a period of time.
DONNELLY: Without a hearing. It`s a secret hearing and it takes place without your participation. So there`s no due process.
But you know the one thing that nobody`s discussing? Is what about holding the university accountable and maybe suing for creating a gun-free zone
where you cannot defend yourself.
(GROUP -- NO)
PINSKY: I love this, I love this that everybody`s saying, `If there were more guns, then there wouldn`t be more violence.`
FRAZIER: No, if there`s more guns there`s going to be more violence and we understand that. Just like when people say, `What about the violence in
Chicago?` Well Chicago is as violent as Detroit and urban cities --
DONNELLY: But wait a minute --
FRAZIER: -- there`s a big problem going on in or country and it needs to be addressed on a grassroots level. (Inaudible) if you arm more people as
we`ve seen whether it`s Ferguson or other places where people have guns and even if it`s police or security. It can be dangerous.
[21:10:00] BLOOM: And, Tim, you`re wrong about the due process. So in any temporary restraining order, yes, somebody can go in, the other side
doesn`t come in, you get a restraining order.
But then in a very short period of time, probably days, maybe weeks, then everybody has a right to be heard. Then the gun owner can come in and
present their side.
So we`re only talking about taking somebody`s guns away for a very short time and then they can go in front of the judge and they can tell their
side.
DONNELLY: If it was a different type of right, would you be OK with it?
(CROSS TALK)
PINSKY: Whoa, whoa. If it was a right where it was my opinion that person has lost their insight because of a brain disorder, they could be harmed,
other people could be harmed.
We should all want people restricted in that circumstance. It`s crazy that we don`t.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: It`s crazy.
MARTIN: Gun rights are --
PINSKY: I don`t want them driving a car, I can restrict somebody from driving a vehicle whose head is not working right. I can do that right
now.
And it`s my opinion -- now, it gets reviewed by the DMV. Of course you don`t want somebody around a 5,000 pound piece of metal that can harm
themselves and other people.
Why are guns different, why?
MARTIN: But these gun rights advocates always say guns don`t kill people, people kill people. But the reality is, access to guns -- I mean, you
can`t deny it -- California has very strict gun control laws and the correlation between murders -- these mass murders -- we don`t see that same
kind of gun violence that we see in other places that don`t have these aggressive gun laws.
You can`t deny that.
DONNELLY: We`ve had own share of mass murders here in California with all the strict gun control laws. And as a matter of fact, almost every one of
these mass murderers have legally purchased their firearms.
MARTIN: That`s why we need to change the laws.
DONNELLY: So more guns -- more laws -- aren`t going to stop anyone. But one thing.
FEMALE: That doesn`t --
(CROSS TALK)
DONNELLY: There`s one thing that would actually the murderer.
PINSKY: What, tell us?
DONNELLY: And that is somebody who has a firearm on them, knows how to use it -- instead of waiting around for the four minutes for the cops to get
there, --
MARTIN: No, no.
BLOOM: OK, but the problem with that is that we know that even police officers --
PINSKY: Freeze.
BLOOM: -- often are unable to stop somebody in the middle of a shooting.
PINSKY: Go ahead, yes ma`am.
FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, he`s saying that, you know, only the good guy with the gun can stop. There were people at UCC who were carrying guns --
concealed carry.
And they chose not to get involved. Very wisely because they didn`t want to get shot by the swat team.
PINSKY: Oh.
FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, so you`re really --
PINSKY: Or -- thank you attorneys -- they may not want the liability of not really understanding the complex situation (inaudible) with.
MARTIN: And you don`t want a bunch of untrained people out shooting at each other, so I don`t understand this line to where everybody has a gun,
you shoot at me, Lisa, I shoot at you, I shoot at you, Kevin.
We`re just going to have mayhem and a lot of people are going to be dead, Tim. That`s all it`s going to get them.
DONNELLY: Do you remember the -- Vickie Soto -- at Sandy Hook?
MALE: Yes.
DONNELLY: You know what she did? She lied so convincingly she saved 25 kids` lives. If she had had a Derringer or a .22 --
BLOOM: Oh, Tim.
DONNELLY: -- or anything while she was facing that guy, --
BLOOM: And how does that play out in --
DONNELLY: -- pulled it out and shot him --
BLOOM: -- a different type of classroom by the way?
DONNELLY: -- then maybe the rest of the kids didn`t have to die.
BLOOM: Tim, Tim --
DONNELLY: And that`s my whole point.
BLOOM: Tim, where do you put a loaded gun in a kindergarten classroom? The little kids who get into every drawer, who get into the teacher`s
purse.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
BLOOM: Is that really what we want?
DONNELLY: You put it in -- you put it on your body.
BLOOM: OK, when you`re a kindergarten teacher, you`re down on the floor with kids, you`re hugging them. You`re going to have a loaded gun hanging
out of your pocket? Are you out of your mind?
MARTIN: What training are these teachers going to get?
DONNELLY: Right.
MARTIN: Who`s going to be responsible to make sure that teachers can use guns responsibly?
DONNELLY: By the way, just so you know, --
PINSKY: Wait now -- yes.
DONNELLY: -- in California -- in California it is law right now -- the 1995 gun-free school zone law -- enables every single teacher who has a
conceal carry permit can carry on campus right now as long as they get signed off by a superintendent.
FRAZIER: Here`s what I`m curious -- do you have kids?
DONNELLY: I do, I have five sons.
FRAZIER: Would you send them to a school where the teachers are armed?
DONNELLY: Absolutely.
BLOOM: You would.
DONNELLY: I absolutely --
PINSKY: Let me (inaudible) this conversation though we got a lot to talk about. I`ve got an audience member lining up here. I`ll get you in just a
second, sir.
Later on I have a woman punched in the face by police and my question simply is -- what? What warrants that? Is there some that helps me?
I want help police do their job. I don`t get this one. This one sort of got to me. We`ll look at it and more after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:10:17] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360 " President Obama`s going to be traveling to Roseburg on Friday to meet with families.
If you have an opportunity to meet with him, what would you say?
JESSE ATKINSON, SISTER INJURED IN SHOOTING: I would tell him to look where the problem really lies and quite running the agenda of -- well, quite
running the gun agenda. It`s not the problem. It`s our mental health in America.
We lock people up for smoking pot and then waste tax dollars on that when we could be dumping it into healthcare systems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about the Oregon shooter, a 26-year-old who killed nine people at a community college before being involved in a suicide
himself.
Now, I had doubts whether that suicide was a self-inflicted gunshot wound or suicide by police. The coroner has actually not nor has the sheriff
rung in and given us the details as to which of those was in fact the case.
I`m back with Lisa, Areva, Kevin and Tim. And Lisa, you have something very, very personal you leaned over and told me during the break.
BLOOM: Well we have one the highest rates of suicide in the world because of our guns. And I lost my own father to a gun suicide several years ago.
And all of his life he said he was going to do it. He was going to get a gun, he was going to shoot himself and my brother and I always said, you
know, we`re going to take your gun away.
And he said, well what are you going to do? I`ll just get another one.
And the reality is, is that`s America. That in most places in America that`s the case.
A mentally ill person -- he was never adjudicated mentally ill like 99 percent of mentally ill people. He just was severely depressed and he
could get a gun and he did.
And so this new California law that Areva talked about is so important because family members like us could have gone to the court if it had`ve
been the law at that time and said please take this gun away from him and it would have taken it away.
PINSKY: And the doctors could have intervened. Now you can argue all day, Tim, that it`s not the gun, it`s the suicidal patient. He could have taken
pills, he could have jumped off a bridge, that`s right.
But men mostly use guns when they complete an act of suicide.
MARTIN: And you know one thing we see, Dr. Drew, is that the gun rights advocates always talk about it`s guns, it`s mental health. But we don`t
see any of these elected officials or many of them then talking about let`s invest in mental health.
They just use it I think to deflect the conversation --
PINSKY: And by the way --
MARTIN: -- and move the conversation --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: -- I would love a way --
MARTIN: -- away from the gun to mental health. But let`s invest in mental health.
PINSKY: I would love a world where Lisa`s father was mandated --
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: -- for treatment. Where we could when people like Deanne`s (ph) family --
MARTIN: Oh Lisa could have gotten the first (inaudible).
PINSKY: -- could`ve -- yes, I mean, then we wouldn`t be having the gun conversation quite so intensively. Yes, sir.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The mental health issue seems to be the factor that`s swept under the rug the most when I`m watching the news. Where
we`re pointing fingers at these guns and politicians and legislations and everything --
PINSKY: For the record, not here.
BLOOM: Yes.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, not here.
PINSKY: Here we constantly -- are constantly -- talking about mental health. But, sir, go ahead.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, but I mean like when do we -- when do we -- start holding these companies, these pharmaceutical companies accountable
and start asking questions about these suicide pills.
It says it right there on the ad -- may cause thoughts of suicide -- and everything and these things are happening. These people on pills
PINSKY: Yes, but -- but let me tell you, let me tell you. No, no. These people need -- these particular people that are committing these acts that
we`ve been dealing with are people that need pharmaceutic help. That`s unfortunately the case.
And they also need psychotherapeutic help. They need a lot of kinds of help. They need -- it`s bigger than you and I`m afraid.
But yes, Tim, go ahead and answer.
DONNELLY: I think that Lisa -- first of all, I`m sorry about your father. I lost a brother to suicide.
BLOOM: Oh, I`m sorry.
DONNELLY: And, look, you make the point though that those who are mentally ill general harm themselves usually.
BLOOM: That`s true.
DONNELLY: Or a bit psychotic, --
PINSKY: Or are victims of abuse.
DONNELLY: -- schizophrenic or something like that.
PINSKY: Yes.
DONNELLY: So think we need to be -- tread very carefully here in terms of denying entire classifications of people who might simply have an issue and
have gotten some medication and some treatment and next thing you know they`re going to lose their gun rights.
PINSKY: But, Tim, if you could -- just like you can restrict their moving about in the world by giving them a 5150 and putting them in an isolated
environment, they lose all their rights and privileges for that moment other than to their safety and body (ph) or what not.
But the fact is, you can do that until they move through that period of time when they`re no longer a danger to themselves. That`s a reasonable
thing to do. We can restrict them from driving a vehicle, we can restrict them from moving about the world and we should be able to restrict them
from accessing firearms. It just seems sensible.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
FRAZIER: Drew, since Sandy Hook --
PINSKY: Yes.
FRAZIER: -- we`ve had around 420 school shootings in this country. (AUDIO GAP). It`s crazy. And at that point, don`t you stop and say wait a
minute, we have to make our children safe.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
FRAZIER: Let`s stop for a second and just figure out how we can make our children safe. I`m not saying take away your guns or whatever, I`m just
saying what can we do to make our children safer.
PINSKY: And, Kevin, I would love to get this away from the gun conversation and talk about delivering mental health and restoring sort of
state facilities again and having money accessible where you can actually treat people and mandate these people that they get better when they lose
insight and the ability to sort of make sense of themselves.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
FRAZIER: You`re right.
MARTIN: We should practice law that California passed be applicable throughout the country because it is so difficult to civilly commit someone
and most of the states say unless you`ve had a civil commitment, you can`t take that person`s gun.
And we know the mental health system is challenging for families to do that.
PINSKY: Let me read you what the -- one of the friends of the mother told "New York Times," "The New York Times" report that the mother reported to
this friend the son had in fact been committed as a patient at a psychiatric hospital -- here locally in Los Angeles area.
I know the facility, it`s an excellent facility. I`m going to read you what she said quote, "She said that `My son is a real big problem of mine.
He has some psychological problems. Sometimes he takes his medication, sometimes he doesn`t. And that`s where the big problem is, when he doesn`t
take his medication.`"
And you can`t mandate that -- you can`t require somebody to do that. Yes, sir.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Yes, I don`t really see how you can differentiate who`s going to be committed and who`s not. That`s so easy -- that`s such
an area where you could easily commit people who really don`t belong there.
MARTIN: But that`s what this law does. It doesn`t commit you, it just allows the courts to say that you can remove those guns from the person.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Yes, that`s what this law does, but you`re talking about involuntary commitments (inaudible).
PINSKY: No-no-no, we have those laws -- we have those laws already.
BLOOM: Yes, someone -- sorry.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: If you`re a danger to yourself or others, --
BLOOM: Exactly.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: -- it sounded like you were trying to take that a step further.
PINSKY: No-no-no. No-no-no. I`m just saying we already have those things, why can`t we also -- and we also can restrict your driving a
vehicle, why can`t we also for a little while restrict your access to firearms.
That`s all I`m saying.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: We have the -- these are to help people --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: -- to make sure they don`t harm themselves or other people.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: I`m just saying we have to respect people`s privacy too, there has to be some kind of boundary there.
PINSKY: Boy, here we are is where it goes. That`s where it goes. That`s OK that we`re going right now? There`s 460 shootings -- we`re OK with the
--
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: No, obviously there were clear signs there where he was a danger to himself or others --
PINSKY: Yes.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: -- but there are some sort of situations where, you know, you do have to watch out for people`s privacy --
PINSKY: Of course.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: -- if we go in the direction where people went 50 years ago with the psychiatric industry.
BLOOM: Right.
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: You know, where they were just involuntary commit -- involuntarily committing people and then you can get things to float out
there --
PINSKY: Tim, --
MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: -- and wrong ideas.
PINSKY: Way too far, I agree.
DONNELLY: But, Drew, here`s an issue right now that is literally on Governor Jerry Brown`s desk, SB707, that would completely eliminate any CCW
holder -- that means a concealed carry weapons permit from carrying on any K through college campus in California.
[21:20:16] PINSKY: And including the security guards?
BLOOM: No, not --
DONNELLY: This would include all personnel who are not part of the school in any capacity. If the school wanted to actually arm its people, that`s a
separate issue.
PINSKY: They can. OK.
DONNELLY: But the bottom line is that you`re going to take away -- and by the way -- CCW holders have never committed any violence of any sort that`s
been recorded in California history. So why would we take away the one certain thing --
(CROSS TALK)
PINSKY: Let`s respond to that -- hold on, Lisa first. Go ahead.
BLOOM: What`s aggravating about the more guns argument is that we have a mountain of data to show that it`s wrong. So we have all of the rest of
the developed world that has strict gun control laws and a tiny number of gun deaths every year.
And then we have the United States that is awash in guns to have more guns than people -- men, women or children -- and we have by far the most gun
violence.
DONNELLY: But why is it that this always happens -- these mass murders happen -- in gun-free zones?
BLOOM: That`s not true.
DONNELLY: It is.
BLOOM: Fort Hood was a military base --
DONNELLY: OK, but Aurora, the theater, the schools --
BLOOM: -- Columbine and Colorado in the theater was not gun-free. There were people there with guns.
DONNELLY: But it`s stated as a --
BLOOM: So it`s absolutely untrue.
DONNELLY: -- gun-free zone and you have these guys who are targeting places where they don`t think they`re going to be confronted by anybody and
I think we need to ensure -- if the government can`t guarantee your safety, --
FRAZIER: First grade, first grade.
DONNELLY: -- then --
PINSKY: But, Areva, go ahead. What do you want to say?
MARTIN: I just want to say again this whole concept that people should have more guns. Aren`t you afraid to have just regular Joe Blows walking
around with guns? And that we`re expecting untrained professionals to shoot back and try to take down these people who are --
DONNELLY: So now you trust the cops longer (ph).
MARTIN: -- people who are experienced. Just go ahead like 13/14 guns. They`ve gone to gun ranges, they`ve been training on how to use guns.
Little old me, I wouldn`t know what to do --
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: -- if I`m confronted with someone that`s shooting at me. That`s not my job and I don`t think it`s the job of school teachers or
kindergarten teachers.
PINSKY: Kevin Frazier.
FRAZIER: When you allow people to have guns and -- extra guns and people who aren`t trained -- then you have kids a Trayvon Martin ending up dead in
the street because someone follows him home --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUSE)
MARTIN: Yes, yes.
FRAZIER: -- because I think you`re stealing something. And it could have been a very different situation , say, `That kid`s bothering me right now,
let me call the police.`
MARTIN: Yes.
FRAZIER: It wasn`t a gun involved.
PINSKY: That`s a wrap -- I`m going to wrap this up by saying the gun thing I don`t know that we`re going to solve it. It sounds like we`re moving in
a little more rational direction.
But my biggest beef -- my biggest concern -- what is near and dear to my heart is this mental health issue. Every one of these shooters, every one
of them has very significant mental health issues. They were either under- addressed or not addressed or weren`t required to be addressed in a way that could`ve helped everybody.
Most of these people are either dead or in prison. Are they happier now? And now by the way they`re getting treatment if they survive. And they`re
looking back going -- what was that? I was in my wrong mind. What was I thinking? I have no idea what was going on then.
You can make people better. We have to get out of this idea that the brain is somehow a different organ. The brain gets sick just like anything else,
and when it is sick, you lose your capacity to have insight into what you`re doing and you often get very paranoid and unwilling to listen to
people around you that can help you.
We need to have remedies for that is all I`m saying.
Next up, a woman beaten by police has her children watch. Was it justifiable battery (ph), after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEMALE REPORTER: This woman says she was the victim of egregious police brutality. Video from July of 2013 tells her story or at least part of it.
CINDY HAHN, VICTIM: Get him off of me! Get him off of me! Get -- nothing, I did nothing!
FEMALE REPORTER: Cindy Hahn says the physical confrontation was sparked by a verbal exchange with an officer.
HAHN: He says is this your car? And I said no, sir. And he said, `then mind your own f-ing business.`
FEMALE REPORTER: It escalated. She decided to take a video and record the officer to police. Moments later that officer pulled her over for a
seatbelt violation.
Cindy says within seconds she was pinned to the ground and it got worse when backup arrived.
HAHN: Help me! Help me! Help me! Helping me. (SCREAMS).
POLICE OFFICER: "Stay back on the grass, or I`m gonna handcuff you, too." Stop resisting!
HAHN: I`m not doing anything! (SCREAMS).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very distressing. At the time Cindy Hahn was charged with resisting arrest. Two years later the district attorney completely dropped
all charges. She now is suing the Carlsbad, California Department.
Back with Lisa, Areva and Keven. Joining us is Bill Stanton. Bill`s a former NYPD officer. He`s currently a private investigator.
Bill, help me understand. I know we don`t know what went down there, but it`s hard for me to defend that behavior, right?
BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: No, this one`s going to be pretty tough to defend but I will always say until all the facts come out, we must give
the cop the benefit of the doubt --
(AUDIENCE DISAPPROVAL)
STANTON: -- because if we don`t give them the -- if we don`t -- what did I just say? We have to give them the benefit of the doubt because if we
don`t give them the benefit of the doubt, a cop makes the same paycheck whether he`s taking action or taking that report.
So let the facts play out. I`m not condoning this. I`m not going to condone -- I`m not going to defend the indefensible of what I`m seeing
here., but I want to know what precipitated this and what came after.
PINSKY: Kevin.
FRAZIER: I do think -- it will play out in court, but he`s right. Police officers have a very tough job and we expect them to come into very
stressful situations and defend us at the craziest moments in our life.
I`m not saying what they did was right. But we have to let that play out in the courtroom and show and say this was out of control. But we cannot
start condemning all police and just go right in and say this guy`s wrong and this is why.
[21:30:03] PINSKY: Whatever the white officer (AUDIO GAP) black woman. Hang on, wait, wait -- Kevin. White officer, black woman lying down.
FRAZIER: No matter -- listen, white person/white person whatever, it is a citizen against a police officer. We -- they have a -- sometimes we forget
how tough the police officer jobs are.
And we don`t -- and so, what I`m saying is that there are bad police out there who have done a lot of bad things.
(CROSSTALK)
We have to let this play out in the court system.
PINSKI: OK, these two are dying.
Areva, first.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY, LEGAL DEPARTMENT: Well, I just want to say that we`re not making an indictment, Kevin, against all police officers. We`re
looking at this one video talking about the cops in this situation.
And what`s disturbing to me about this, the guy that comes and starts punching the woman, he arrives at the scene within seconds. He starts just
punching this woman in the face. He doesn`t ask any questions. He doesn`t assess the situation. He doesn`t know what`s going on. And there was
nothing that we saw in our naked eye that would suggest that punching her in the face was needed to restrain her.
How do you defend that?
(APPLAUSE)
FRAZIER: There is no --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: How do you defend that?
FRAZIER: Listen, listen. And I understand what you are saying. And that`s why I`m saying it`s going to play out in the court system. He will
probably lose his job. They will probably lose a lot of money.
(CROSSTALK)
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I wouldn`t be so sure, because I do a lot of police excessive force cases.
PINSKI: Hang on a second, Bill, (INAUDIBLE)
BLOOM: I do a lot of police excessive force cases. And there is always this bending over backwards to say, well, the police officer probably kind
of had a good motivation.
This woman was stopped for a seatbelt infraction, OK. She`s not a danger to the neighborhood. She`s not roaming around with a gun. This is a 40-
year-old mom that`s being held down by multiple police officers. And then the man takes a closed fist. And we see it on the video and punches her in
the face. I mean, what more do we need to know?
PINSKI: Bill, go ahead. What more do we need to know?
(APPLAUSE)
BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD POLICE OFFICER: OK. You know what, there is tragedy on both sides.
PINSKI: Yes.
STANTON: There`s mistakes on both sides. Let`s go to the police officer. There is a larger question. I want to know his training. Does he have a
history of violence? And if he`s a bad cop, in my opinion, he`s not a cop, he`s a criminal.
Now on the citizens side.
PINSKI: OK.
STANTON: We are citizens. We have an obligation, you know, there`s a social contract here. If a cop tells you, put your hands behind your head,
guess what, if you obey, nothing is going to happen to you.
Listen to the cop. If you think he is doing wrong, take his badge number and take care of it afterwards. Yelling, telling people get the cop off
you, screaming, not complying, nothing good is going to come of that, period, end of sentence.
PINSKI: I had heard, that this would now -- Emily, am I right on this, on the control room, that this was precipitated because this woman had called
in a complaint about the officer?
And then -- yes, we are hearing that, then he came back around and gave a seatbelt infraction and then things ensued.
Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that when people do come in contact with the officers, they should also have in consideration --
PINSKI: The citizen? The citizen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
PINSKI: The citizen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a human being.
PINSKI: The officer is? The officer, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just watch the way you talk to them.
PINSKI: Well, I agree with you. And I think we all agree, right? None of us disagree with that. That we all should, like Bill said, if an officer
come and say, lay down, put your hands behind you, that`s exactly what we do. Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, but a lot of them lose control because they`re already mad, because you don`t stop me and hey, I`m upset and I`m going to
act accordingly. And that`s what they do.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Yes, but the punishment is not that you get punched in the face, right?
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shouldn`t give punches in the face, but if something happened, probably during his day, something happened along the
way that caused him to do that.
PINSKI: Do you have law enforcement in your family? Do you have --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I work for them.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKI: The government feeling. But so, what do you -- is there anything that woman could have done that would have precipitated that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She probably said something that agitated him.
MARTIN: And that`s the problem.
PINSKI: The first guy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She probably said -- she probably said something. We didn`t hear what all was said.
PINSKI: Yes.
BLOOM: But that`s blaming the victim. Right? We don`t do that in any other context.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But already she was upset because she was stopped.
MARTIN: But ma`am ==
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he was probably upset, too. Right?
PINSKI: Yes, yes.
MARTIN: But you work for the sheriff. The sheriffs are the trained professionals in this situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are.
MARTIN: The citizen shouldn`t be held accountable. Now maybe she cursed him or maybe she says something, but his job is to deescalate it.
BLOOM: Yes, that`s right.
MARTIN: Take it down at considerable level. Bring it all the way down.
(APPLAUSE)
PINSKI: I want to talk directly to you. I`m so interested in your point of view. Go ahead, yes please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is why I said we should take consideration, they`re human, too.
PINSKI: Yes, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they`re capable of --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: We hold them to a higher standard, though, and they know that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they lose control, too.
PINSKI: I get it. But now we have cameras. Everyone hold up a camera.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
PINSKI: Do you think that`s going to be a net benefit for the profession? That people will now, really kind of -- it may go against them in certain
situations, like I`m not going to get involved? But others may hold them to a higher standard, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then others hold them to a higher standard, but then we have the ones that bring on the hype, you know?
PINSKI: Are we doing that?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKI: All right. We`ll tell you what we are going to do. We`re going to go to break and then we`re going to keep the hype going a little bit,
OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
PINSKI: And later on, I got Bobbi Kristina Brown. There`s some question. There`s some information suggesting murder. We don`t know. We`ll be back
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:39:22] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing to her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Video of July 31st, 2013. What Cindy Hahn calls the worst day of her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A horrific day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: That`s her on the ground, one officer on top of her, the other hitting her repeatedly in the head, arresting her, she
says, for no reason.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands off me. Get off of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did she do wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing. She was doing nothing. I`m putting this on YouTube.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:10] PINSKI: That woman is now, she`s now suing the police department claiming she suffered permanent memory loss, brain injury, as
well as other physical and emotional injuries.
And back, Lisa, Areva, Kevin and Bill.
Bill, during the last block there, you were trying to say something. Go ahead?
STANTON: No, I mean, there are millions of interactions every day between police officer and citizen? And infinitesimal small amount result like
this. And to paint with a broad brush saying cops are bad, et cetera, et cetera, is horrible.
BLOOM: Who`s done that?
STANTON: It`s horrible for the citizen. It`s horrible for the police officer.
PINSKI: OK, so, Bill, let`s -- do any of us disagree with Bill on this point?
MARTIN: We agree they`re good cops.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: No, no, no.
MARTIN: We`re just talking about this incident.
PINSKI: Law enforcement generally does their job, is well-meaning. It`s for a professional and do what they need to do and they help our community?
BLOOM: Yes, for the most part.
PINSKI: OK. We had a little -- we had a moment --
FRAZIER: For the most part.
PINSKI: Young lady here who is from the sheriff`s department, who represented the sheriff`s department very well, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Let`s do it.
PINSKI: But this guy, or these two guys were wondering whether or not, we`re watching something that they should be held accountable for, right?
These two guys?
All right, Lisa, she is demanding a jury trial, will she get one? Will she win? Is there a big problem here for that?
BLOOM: Oh, I would take her case. I would take it all the way to jury. I think the jury would be very sympathetic to her.
(APPLAUSE)
She got the video. Let me tell you, the best weapon we have against police brutality is our smartphones, and the video and our smartphones. And, yes,
take that video out. You have a right to do it. You have a right to videotape the police as long as you don`t interfere with what they`re
doing, and yes, post it immediately on YouTube or somewhere else in case your phone gets taken away because that happens, too.
PINSKI: But, Bill, you say -- you have some concern. You have concerns about secondary gains to these things?
(CROSSTALK)
STANTON: Absolutely.
PINSKI: Go ahead.
STANTON: Doc, doc, absolutely. Because what we are seeing now is a very bad trend, where people are approaching cops, and they think they are
street corner attorneys. And they will actually interfere in proper police procedure. And they are creating more harm than good.
You know what, you want to step back and roll video all you want. You know, open the windows, let the sun shine in. I got no problem with that.
But when you put your hands on a cop when they`re trying to effect an arrest, a legal lawful arrest, that`s when trouble starts happening. And
we`re seeing that more and more.
And what`s happening is the cops are now not so quick to take action. They`re more taking more reports and crime around us, especially the inner
cities where we need a cop, crimes are going up and crimes aren`t getting solved. That`s bad.
MARTIN: But that`s not what we saw in that video. We did see a woman who is standing back and the police told her to step back. And she kept
stepping back.
And people do have an absolute right to film what police are doing. And they`re not being street corner attorneys. They`re helping to hold police
officers accountable.
(APPLAUSE)
And that`s what`s making cops mad. Not the god cop. The good cops wants the videotape, it`s the bad cop. And then these civil rights lawsuits, we
see them all the time. Lisa and I are civil rights lawyers. You see these videos are key. Before, all we had was a police version of events. Now we
have the video.
BLOOM: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
PINSKI: Bill, go ahead.
STANTON: So, like in Ferguson, you know, look at what happened there.
That officer was fighting for his life. That`s a fact. And it got so distorted. And so what we need to do is we have to have a happy middle
ground. What that lady was doing, the video I just saw her is the lady in the blue went right up on the police officer. They are trying to arrest
her. This is not the time to hash it out. You want to roll video. Stay from a back position, roll the video and then let the lawyers hash it out.
Do not get involved in police procedure even if you think it`s wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: Hang on, Bill. Hold on.
Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, so this is a police officer. This is his job.
PINSKI: He is a retired -- Bill, you are no longer -- I mean, you are a former NYPD, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, no, no, not that, the officer in the video. I`m sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: OK. Yes, sir. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The officer in the video.
PINSKI: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is his job. He is supposed to be trained on how to handle these situations. This is a woman. She`s clearly already
restrained. The officer did not need to come in from the side and punch a woman in the head.
BLOOM: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s on the ground.
PINSKI: That`s what it looks like to us.
BLOOM: With two other officers on top of her, and she`s not armed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
But, Kevin, you are trying to play both sides.
(CROSSTALK)
FRAZIER: No, no. I`m not trying to --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: No, no, but listen --
I`m not trying to play both sides, but I will tell you this. I have -- I`ve been arrested before. And you know what to do? You stop. Stop.
PINSKI: This is what you tell your kids, right?
FRAZIER: And this is what I will tell my children. Stop, we`re not going to resist. Hopefully, somebody is videotaping this. And I will take due
course. And in my situation, when I was arrested --
PINSKI: Yes.
FRAZIER: When I was arrested, then my father hired attorneys and we took legal action.
PINSKI: Yes.
FRAZIER: That got those policemen in trouble. But what I`m saying is, stop, just stop. Let`s not escalate the situation because I don`t believe
all police officers are under control, I`m afraid. And when you are afraid for your life, stop.
PINSKI: And do you think that the citizen in this case had some role to play in what happen to her?
[21:45:06] FRAZIER: No, no. What I`m saying is there is no reason she should have been punch in the face. And these officers should be fired.
And thank goodness we have the video. But what I`m saying is, is that instead of screaming, just stop, and say I`m going to, I`m going to let you
take me to jail because this is going to be a problem.
PINSKI: There`s a bigger topic, but I`m not hearing the "Black Lives Matter" movement get behind this lady so much. Are they getting involved
with this? Do we hear that?
FRAZIER: Well, I mean, you can`t, Drew. You can`t throw -- you can`t throw that into this. You can throw all of these things together.
PINSKI: But why not?
(CROSSTALK)
FRAZIER: What we have is a problem of police brutality?
PINSKI: But that`s the problem, why can`t we all get together on it? That`s my point. I don`t see it as fractured. That`s my --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Well, the "Black Lives Matter," Doc, you know, they are focused on the disproportionality and the treatment of African-Americans in the
criminal justices, not African-American men, in particular, are targeted by police.
PINSKI: Correct. But don`t we think they would get more support if they sort of were inclusive with it? More --
BLOOM: No, because this is a specific issue. It`s like saying why deal with cancer when there is AIDS out in the world. "Black Lives Matter" is
working on an important issue. And here`s another important issue, other people being victimized.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: In this case, it`s getting a lot of national attention already without the "Black Lives Matter" movement involved.
PINSKI: Fair enough.
Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to add on when is enough going to be enough within the police brutality?
BLOOM: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been so many wrong doings by all of these police officers. Look at the Oscar Grant. You know, innocent life lost.
Look at this young lady within the video and when are we going to actually hold them accountable. There is no form of real consequences within the
police officers.
PINSKI: I would disagree. Here`s your consequence, these two ladies are the ones that hold out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I mean, look at Oscar Grant, the police officer who shot him.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he got barely any form of --
(CROSSTALK)
FRAZIER: You`re right. You`re right.
BLOOM: You are right. I`m going to support you on this. You are right, because what happens in the civil cases that I bring is I can get money for
the family. But the police officer sometimes is not even fired.
MARTIN: Right. Right.
BLOOM: I mean, they should be held criminally responsible just like anybody else that takes The Fifth.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MARTIN: That`s when I disagree with you. I think we made a lot of progress. We have a lot more to go, but because of these videos, we are
starting to see police officers prosecuting. Look at the Baltimore. It`s a good example.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: I would say let`s hold them to a higher professional standard. I`m not sure that criminalizing, that you`re going to make it so no one is
going to take this job. I mean, you want good people in the job, right?
FRAZIER: And that`s where you need to -- we need to stop and look at how we pay our police officers? How we train them? And to think, who are
those police officers? Who are they?
PINSKI: By the way, arm them with alternative means and lethal force with all kinds.
FRAZIER: Yes.
PINSKI: But we have to go. I got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Dash cams.
PINSKI: Dash cams, all that good stuff.
Could murder charges be filed against Nick Gordon in the death of Bobbi Kristina Brown? We`ll talk about that more after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:51:57] PINSKI: Time for "Click Fix," where my guest tells me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and/or Instagram feeds. And Kevin is
first.
FRAZIER: Yes, well, right now, there is a lot of talk, because there`s finally going to be movement in the Bobbi Kristina case against Nick
Gordon. And I will tell you this.
I saw text messages from Bobbi Kristina, just that were sent days before she passed away, where she said she wanted to go to rehab. She wanted to
resume working. Those were not the text messages of a young woman who had some kind of suicide pact and wanted to die.
PINSKI: OK. And so they`re moving forward.
FRAZIER: There is a lot of speculation that finally they will move forward. And, remember, there`s a civil case also.
PINSKI: OK. And, apparently, no comment. We reach out, then we came from Nick`s camp, Nick Gordon`s camp, and we can`t confirm or deny it. I think
Kevin is saying Kevin has seen these things and he is reporting to us tonight.
Lisa, you are next.
BLOOM: OK, so I have an unbelievable viral video from Japan. This has gotten seven million hits in 48 hours. So this guy is doing product
reviews on YouTube and he live streaming. And he`s got a lighter demo. The entire lighter catches fire. He throws it down. He puts the match on
another table. And while he is focusing on the lighter, the match ignites a plastic bag full of paper. OK, so he spends 11 minutes of this video.
See it there. OK, he is trying to put out the fire now. It`s still on camera. All you see are flames. And the whole thing just catches on fire.
It`s unbelievable. We`re just showing you one minute out of the 11 minutes. And, ultimately, very sadly, Japanese media reports that a woman
in a neighboring apartment dies from the fire.
PINSKI: Oh my God.
BLOOM: I know. Isn`t that awful? It`s so sad.
PINSKI: This all started because he was doing a product review on YouTube?
BLOOM: Yes. Yes, the lighter. And, look, there he is trying to put it out.
PINSKI: Call the fire department.
BLOOM: He doesn`t put it out.
PINSKI: 911, fire department.
BLOOM: Yes. Throw something over it.
FRAZIER: People are watching, live. Doesn`t it a live stream?
BLOOM: Yes, it was a live stream.
PINSKI: Oh my goodness.
Areva, what do you got?
MARTIN: Well, after Lisa`s story, we could use the viral video with a happy ending.
BLOOM: Yes.
MARTIN: And I just happen to have one. So take a look. We see a man standing at a railing. He`s kicking his foot then walks away and kicks a
rock. He`s going to walk away, kick a rock. Then out of nowhere, watch for it, watch for it. That`s the rock.
PINSKI: Oh!
MARTIN: And out of control car ploughs into the railing right where he had been standing.
BLOOM: Oh my God.
MARTIN: But, get this, the video was on Facebook and the words luck, fate or God? And I`d say all three of them.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: It`s a scary day, a near death.
MARTIN: He`s still alive.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKI: Well, I`ve got yet another viral video incident. Guess where in a Wal-Mart. I will share that with you after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:54:05]PINSKI: Wal-Mart again, an alleged shoplifter was caught on cell phone video by Wal-Mart employees. Now one of them, those employees
without a job.
One employee can be heard saying, quote, "This is how you catch a thief in the act." Workers confront the suspect, grab her bags and they taunt her.
An unidentified woman begins fighting with the suspected shoplifter. One employee intervenes, another keeps recording. The video later posted on
the Wal-Mart employee Facebook page. Wal-Mart then sent us a statement calling the behavior completely unacceptable. One of the employees has
been terminated.
Wal-Mart, again, everybody.
Kevin Frazier, what`s coming up on E.T.?
FRAZIER: Tomorrow night, we will have housewife Teresa Giudice, her husband, Joe, and daughter, Gia. Of course, Teresa is in jail right now,
but they will talk about what it`s been like to go see her and how the family is dealing with it.
PINSKI: Fantastic. Kevin, as always, thank you for joining us.
Reminder, we are on SnapChat. You can also see us on Facebook. We have an after show. Some of these guys are going to join me there. A little after
show, you don`t want to miss that. DVR, then you can watch us anytime. And the SnapChat is at Dr.DrewHLN, right?
Thank you all for watching. Thank you, panel. Thank you, audience. We`ll see you next time.
(APPLAUSE)
END
