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Dr. Drew
Cops and Excessive Force: Caught on Camera; Man in Wheelchair Shot to Death; 16-Year-Old Arrested for Resisting Arrest; Man Shot During Traffic Stop; Officer Tases Man With Both Hands on the Car; Did Officer Use Chokehold on Suspect? Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 07, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN ANCHOR: Tonight, caught on tape, shooting, tasing, arresting. Some who deserve it and some who may not. It all starts
right now with the top of the feed.
A man in a wheelchair shot to death by police. Jeremy McDole (ph) had a gun. Police say he moved towards the weapon. The man`s mother said that is
not what happened. We have the video and a warning, this may be tough to watch. Here we go. Let`s look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: Yes, we need police, we need an ambulance. A man just shot himself in an Auto Zone parking lot. He shot his self.
DISPATCHER: He shot himself?
CALLER: He was sitting and shot himself and he fell out in the wheel chair, and he`s laying here on the ground.
DISPATCHER: OK, ma`am.
CALLER: Please send an ambulance and the police, please.
DISPATCHER: I`ll do it. I`ll do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: Hands up! Hands up! Hands up! Put your hands up! Hands up! Hands up! Put your hands up!
WITNESS: Oh, he`s bleeding. He`s bleeding.
POLICE: Put your hands up! Hands up!
WITNESS: Just grab his hands.
POLICE: Put your hands (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up!
WITNESS: They shot him (INAUDIBLE).
WITNESS: Man, put your hands --
POLICE: Hands --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE CHIEF BOBBY CUMMINGS, WILMINGTON, DE: I assure you that not one of those officers intended to take anyone`s life that day, and we`re again
sorry to the family that this encounter ended with the loss of their loved one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTIM`S MOTHER: This is unjust.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Rolonda Watts, host of the pod cast "Sundays with Rolonda," AnneElise Goetz, attorney, host of the pod cast "Your Life and
the Law," Segun Oduolowu, entertainment journalist, Darren Kavinoky, attorney, host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery, and Cheryl
Dorsey, retired LAPD sergeant, author of "The Creation of a Manifesto: Black and Blue," and I`ve got John Cardillo, WJNO radio host, former NYPD
officer.
Rolonda, I see -- I saw you in the makeup chair watching all these videos and sort of emotionally reacting. How do you react to this one?
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST, "SUNDAYS WITH ROLONDA": This one is particularly difficult because the man is in a wheelchair. We haven`t` see that before.
All of them are difficult. But I think in this instance, the man did have a gun. The police officers may not have been sure what he was going to do
with that gun considering he had just shot himself, according to the reports. Nobody wants to see anybody in a wheelchair get shot. In this
instance, there was a gun involved and so I`m going to have to say that I would think the officers might have made the right decision based upon what
they were doing. But, yes, they`re all painful to watch.
PINSKY: And I see the pain in your eyes, AnneElise, and, Segun, not so much. You`re angry.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: No, I -- I`m -- I`m -- I`m really angry, one, because the police chief comes out and said no one in -- none
of the police officers involved in the shooting intended to take that man`s life. When you listen to the shots, you hear pop, pop, pop, pop -- pop. The
last shot is the one that bothers me the most because nine, 10 -- I mean how many bullets do we have to put into a man in a wheelchair in a
situation like that, and then you`re going to tell me it`s not -- it`s not intended to kill him? That`s a firing squad.
PINSKY: AnneElise?
ODUOLOWU: And the last shot is -- is ridiculous.
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: You know, I -- when you talk about a firing squad, I think it goes to the community and how people are responding. I
had a problem with the fact that we had this woman call in to 911 and then she is then attacked. What we don`t hear about in this -- in this story is
that she is then attacked. People come to her home and say, you -- you essentially killed my son because you made this phone call. So that
community sees the police as a firing squad, as opposed to someone to help them. They need to have better community outreach with that police.
PINSKY: Darren?
DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t buy the proposition that the officers didn`t intend to kill anybody. My understanding about officer
training is, you don`t pull your weapon out unless you`re intending to use it, or at least prepared to use it. And those guys had their guns out long
before any shots were fired. But my fundamental proposition -- and I really get law enforcement is a tough job. Any job where your metric of success is
going home alive is a really, really tough job. But I can`t help but wonder if there wasn`t some other strategy, even recognizing that he had a gun.
The guy`s in a wheelchair. He`s not terribly mobile. Wouldn`t there be some other way to try and subdue that situation?
PINSKY: Let`s hear from the probe. Cheryl, that`s generally the thought bubble over my head whenever I watch these videos like this, which is,
isn`t there something else they could have done? I can`t believe -- got a wheelchair?
CHERYL DORSEY, LAPD (RET.): Well, you know, the thing for me is that what causes officers` problems are tactics. The things that they use before,
during and after a deadly force incident. And in this instance, it`s quite possible that the officers could have used a little more restraint. They
could have taken cover. They could have given commands and they could have waited for additional responding units before they jumped into the shots
fired.
PINSKY: OK. So that`s -- that`s kind of what it looks like to the -- I am a complete dilettante. I`m just trying to understand these things we`re
looking at today.
The next question, Cheryl, then would be, why didn`t they?
DORSEY: Well, you know, alto of times I think we get caught up -- officers -- you get caught up in the moment and I think you get tunnel vision and I
think that they were so keyed on to what the caller had said to 911. We don`t know what dispatch told them as they were responding to the scene. So
they had a heightened sense of awareness, if you will, when they finally did land on scene.
(CROSS TALK)
PINSKY: Well, it`s an explanation.
GOETZ: It`s -- no, it`s (INAUDIBLE) explanation as to -- if they acted reasonably or not.
ODUOLOWU: But it`s not even a good explanation. It`s -- it`s not. No.
GOETZ: And that`s from a legal perspective, that is what you`re analyzing, whether they acted reasonably or not.
ODUOLOWU: Forget legal for one second and let`s be -- let`s be humans for a second and forget legal. You can`t tell me that people who are supposed to
be trained in crisis management get hopped up or excited and shoot a man in a wheelchair. That can`t be a good tactic. That can`t be a legal one. You
can`t explain that to me as being humane.
PINSKY: Hang on.
ODUOLOWU: And they`re human beings first. Before they put that suit on, they`re human beings. They took another person`s life with 10 shots and
he`s in a wheelchair. There is no tactic that you can tell me is somewhat justifiable or explainable.
DORSEY: Well, I don`t think I said that. I think what I said is, I said that tactics, poor tactics, cause officers to do that kind of behavior. And
what I --
ODUOLOWU: Yes, but you said they were hopped up, excited and tunnel vision.
DORSEY: I said that`s what I believe. I believe that. That`s what -- that`s -- that`s --
ODUOLOWU: OK, but that`s not -- that can`t be right.
DORSEY: That`s exactly what I believe. And so having spent 20 years in patrol and having been involved in heightened situations, I understand how
tunnel vision goes. But I also expect that you would rely on your training, right? And I also expected part of that training would be to take cover. I
also expected you would recall -- you would call for backup and request additional units and set up a perimeter.
ODUOLOWU: So in your 20 years on the force, would you say that was the right way to act?
DORSEY: No, I -- I -- I --
ODUOLOWU: Your 20 years on the force, was that the right way to act?
DORSEY: I think they could have done something different.
ODUOLOWU: OK. Cool.
(CROSS TALK)
PINSKY: Hang on. We`re --
(CROSS TALK)
DORSEY: No, no, yes, we`re in agreement.
PINSKY: Let me show you another video. This is an officer attempting to arrest a 16-year-old after he`s walking in a bus lane. He then, this young
man, this teenager, refuses the officer`s orders to get on the sidewalk, and then this happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER: Stop resisting.
SUSPECT: Get off!
OFFICER: Stop resisting.
SUSPECT: Get off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you get off of him?
OFFICER: Ma`am, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a kid. Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off of him!
OFFICER: Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kid!
OFFICER: Turn around. Turn around!
SUSPECT: (INAUDIBLE).
OFFICER: Turn around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t touch him! Leave him alone!
SUSPECT: (INAUDIBLE).
OFFICER: Stay on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just stay right there, before they (EXPLETIVE DELETED) try to shoot you or some (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That is a child. That is a
child that was jaywalking right here. You can`t do that to him! This is a child! That`s a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) child! (INAUDIBLE) child! That`s a
child! That`s a kid! What`s wrong with you all?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The teen was cited for resisting arrest and trespassing and then he`s released to his mother. But, Rolonda, one of the things that`s
disturbing about that video, other than the aggression of violence, which we can talk about the propriety of that, but the bystander saying, hey,
they`re going to shoot you.
WATTS: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: This is that firing squad mentality again, AnneElise.
WATTS: Absolutely. This is what you get for jaywalking in America. Jaywalking?
PINSKY: Yes, but they`re not going to shoot a guy who`s just standing there resisting arrest, are they? AnneElise, am I --
ODUOLOWU: Yes. Yes, they are.
PINSKY: What?
ODUOLOWU: Yes, they are, because they shot a guy in the back in South Carolina leaving a scene and then they put a gun -- a Taser by his body and
framed him because they`re all wearing the same color uniform.
GOETZ: You`re saying that --
WATTS: But I also think that --
GOETZ: (INAUDIBLE) encompass all of the police officers. That is not -- that`s not true. That`s not -- that`s painting a ridiculously wide brush --
broad brush.
ODUOLOWU: But you don`t (INAUDIBLE) --
WATTS: But -- but, listen, but that`s not your experience, though. And I think that what the experience is in so many neighborhoods, especially
underprivileged neighborhoods, that this is the norm.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, but --
WATTS: And, guess what, this has been the norm. And now it`s just we have cameras that are showing us.
PINSKY: I`ve got to get John into this. John, help us out here. This is the norm is what some people believe?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER OFFICER, NYPD: I don`t think it`s the norm. I mean I have to laugh every time Segun talks because his vast tactical experience
as an entertainment blogger must lend to him criticizing a 20-year veteran of the LAPD and myself.
The shooting of the man in the wheelchair completely justified. It doesn`t matter if he was in a wheelchair. The bullet moves just as fast, the gun is
just as deadly. In this case, someone`s resisting arrest. The kid could just as easily have complied. And I always have to laugh, again, when
entertainment bloggers lecture us on police tactics. It`s -- it`s really funny. Comical.
ODUOLOWU: No, no. OK. Well, so I`m not lecturing you on police tactics, I`m asking you as a large black man who walk through society and must
constantly live in fear of being censored by what I say, am I the angry black guy loud in a restaurant. When you talk about your 20 years on the
force, come back and talk to me about 30 some odd years of being black in America where no one in your uniform has done ever anything to benefit my
people in any way. So I`m not lecturing your tactics.
CARDILLO: OK, let me respond to that.
ODUOLOWU: I`m asking you as my community looks at what you`re doing on TV, and I will ask you, where are the good cops talking out against the bad
ones? Because you can tell me as an entertainment blogger what I don`t know, but I want you to answer me, where are the good cops meeting with
officials in the different communities trying to help.
PINSKY: And, John, I`ll have you answer that when I get back from the break.
We have to take a quick break right now. We`ve got more -- we`re going to look at more of these sorts of things. We`ve got an amputee that`s being
subdued. We have, you know, various kinds of situations we`re trying to understand and give John a chance to respond to what -- to what Darren --
what Segun is asking when we return. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you all doing?
OFFICER: Stop! Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(CROSS TALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, you`re on his prosthetic leg? Literally on his prosthetic leg. This is crazy.
You can put that wall up, but it`s not -- I mean people know that you all are terrible at your job.
This is excessive force. This is white supremacy in action, in real time. You have a man who`s half-naked, and you don`t even have enough respect for
this man to pull his pants up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A homeless man, one leg pinned to the ground by several officers in San Francisco. Now, before this, he was acting erratically, allegedly,
waving sticks in the -- sticks his canes in the air, stepping out into oncoming traffic and clearly disconnected from reality.
Back with Rolonda, AnneElise, Segun, Darren, Cheryl and John.
John, I want to give you a chance before we get into that video, a chance to respond to Segun. Go ahead.
CARDILLO: Well, look, there are plenty of good cops. Let me tell you the story about a good cop. Kentucky Trooper Cameron Pander (ph), who pulled
over Joseph Shanks (ph), saw that he had children in the car, didn`t want them to have to spend the night in jail or a shelter, and while he was
calling a hotel, Shanks killed him. He shot him dead. So there are good cops out there, we just don`t hear those parts of the story.
But I`ll make Segun a deal. Follow me on Twitter after the show. I`ll follow you. And I`ll direct message you, we`ll trade e-mails, and I will
send you story upon story about good cops turning in bad cops if you promise to print the stories.
ODUOLOWU: I have no problem doing that. See, what you fail to realize is, my best friends are cops. My girlfriend`s uncle is a cop here in L.A. I
have respect for the police because I know how difficult the job is. What I ask them is the same thing I would ask anyone who watches us on TV, report
the bad ones, because I`m tired of walking through black communities and watching people in fear of the people that are supposed to protect and
serve. That`s my point.
PINSKY: OK, hand on.
Sergeant Dorsey, there`s something here that reminds me so much of what happened in my profession 30, 40 years ago. The medical profession was a
little under regulated. It wasn`t regulating itself properly and we got sort of scrutinized and we could do a better job. Now, we didn`t like that
laypeople, non-medical professionals, were telling us how to do our job any more than I believe the police like Segun telling them how to do theirs.
But can -- I think it`s, you know, with the cameras and stuff, isn`t this all a sign that a lot of police forces, I understand they`re restricted in
terms of their -- their money and their training and we`re asking a lot, but can`t we do better?
DORSEY: Well, listen, for me I think the problem is that there`s no accountability, right? And so when we see outrageous and egregious
activities on the part of that small minority of police officers that are misbehaving and then they go unchecked, because we see time and time again,
we see in the instance of Michael Slager who shot and killed Walter Scott, that that wasn`t the first time he`d used his Taser inappropriately. The
police chief was aware of that and he did nothing. We know that Mr. Bates (ph) in Tulsa, Oklahoma, before he pulled his Taser thinking it was a --
before he pulled his gun thinking it was a Taser, that he had been acting in a way that was outrageously and deputies complained about him, but the
sheriff allowed him to continue this pay to play situation.
PINSKY: But this is the same thing I -- you`re making my point, which is, again, in my profession, we had to start reporting one another.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
PINSKY: There had to not be a sort of a silence or a cronyism. We had to like go, hey, guys, we all held up to a higher standard, let`s hold one
another up to that.
DORSEY: But, listen, it`s not -- it`s not like the -- it`s not like police chiefs don`t know. It`s that they choose to circle the wagons. They choose
to minimize and mitigate that bad behavior.
WATTS: The blue wall of silence.
ODUOLOWU: But, hang on, (INAUDIBLE) --
KAVINOKY: But you`re never going to solve the problem with that kind of a reactionary policy. So, look, body cameras or self-policing, that`s --
that`s something that`s reactionary and it deals with the symptom but not the underlying problem. The real problem is when you go to the community
and you listen to somebody like Segun who says, this is my experience. We don`t have police officers that are willing to get -- or police
departments, I should say, that are willing to understand and appreciate, get into the listening of what their communities are saying, and they need
to back it up with actions and not just words.
PINSKY: And, to be fair, it`s going to be expensive.
KAVINOKY: It will be, but --
PINSKY: Because a lot of the stuff we see on (INAUDIBLE) --
KAVINOKY: (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: I think, you know, we have to take the officers off the streets, train them, we`ve got to give them rubber bullets, non-lethal. That`s a
(INAUDIBLE) --
(CROSS TALK)
PINSKY: I wish everyone could have each little town has to field their own team. Right?
ODUOLOWU: I`m with it.
WATTS: But each little town, each community also has to be responsive to this crisis as well. How many times do we sit our children down and say, if
you get stopped by the police, this is what you do?
PINSKY: You don`t resist.
WATTS: Even -- yes. Even --
PINSKY: As opposed to what being -- screamed at -- look -- the one-legged man who was being called out for -- it was white supremacy. There was a
bunch of -- a bunch of Hispanic officers were -- but that was white supremacy.
ODUOLOWU: But that was -- that was --
PINSKY: And the other one was, hey, teenagers, don`t -- don`t -- make sure you resist because you`re going to get executed or --
WATTS: Right, but that`s -- that`s in the mentality of the community that doesn`t trust the police. But it has to be a work in progress from both
sides. Yes, police need to understand the mores of the communities that they serve. But the community also -- we have to protect our cops also.
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: And we have to follow --
ODUOLOWU: Yes. But I`m -- I`ll answer with my checkbook. I`m ready to write a check now if it will rent out -- if it will rent out a meeting hall so
that the police and the communities --
WATTS: Do entertainment bloggers make that much?
ODUOLOWU: Well, I -- I do have a few other things in the fire other (ph) than blogging.
PINSKY: I want to move on. Move on to another police shooting. Ray Tensing, a former police officer at the University of Cincinnati, charged with
murder after shooting Sam Dubose during a traffic stop. Here is the video from Tensing`s lapel cam. Here`s the lapel cam. Let`s see what we got.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENSING: Be straight up with me, are you suspended?
DUBOSE: No, I`m not suspended.
TENSING: Then why don`t you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: I don`t -- I don`t -- I just don`t. I`m sorry, sir.
TENSING: OK. Well, until I can figure out if you have a license -- a license or not, go ahead and take your seat belt off for me.
DUBOSE: I didn`t even do nothing.
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seat belt off.
Stop. Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots Fired. Shots fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sergeant Dorsey, again, it seems excessive.
DORSEY: No, so here`s the -- here`s the thing. Another example of an officer who does something repeatedly and gets away with it. I believe that
this is an officer who probably wanted to be a police officer and he couldn`t make it, so he went to a university police department and he
leaves all the time to come out and engage and interact and mix it up. He stops people for minor violations, infractions, no front plate, and engages
them. And then when things go terribly wrong, he`s so caught up in the moment, he`s so personally involved in this interaction, that he forgets
that this thing is being recorded and then lies and says, I thought I was going to die, I thought I was being drug.
KAVINOKY: Well, that`s -- that`s the biggest problem. If you look at the tape, you see some resistance from the part of the driver who`s pulling the
door shut, which that part`s not OK.
CARDILLO: Absolutely.
KAVINOKY: But -- but what really, I think, ultimately leads to this officer`s undoing is not the crime, it`s the cover-up, right? It`s lying in
the report and saying he was drug by the car when obviously that`s not what happened.
PINSKY: But, John, this wasn`t just some traffic stop, right? This guy -- the cop had a reason to be very, very suspicious about this guy, no?
CARDILLO: Yes, and, in fact, I was the only person to report. I broke it on my station because Cincinnati cops gave me the info. Dubose had felony
(INAUDIBLE) 2 pounds of weed, 60 plus arrests. That part of the story was omitted by the progressive media.
I don`t find a lot wrong with this shooting. Dubose was aggressively resisting. You could see his right hand drop out of sight to the console.
And the cop can reasonably articulate fear.
PINSKY: OK.
CARDILLO: I may be in the minority here.
PINSKY: You are. You are. And I`ve got a sergeant here --
DORSEY: Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK, you`re disagreeing with him.
DORSEY: Yes, absolutely, because the officer knew none of that when he stopped him.
WATTS: That`s right.
DORSEY: He stopped him for a minor traffic violation. He stopped him for no front plate. You don`t get to kill somebody because they try to close the
car door. You don`t get to kill somebody because they try to drive away. That`s not a deadly offense.
PINSKY: There you go. Leave it at that.
Next, are there better outcomes for the police and for all of us by perhaps with using Taser or other methods or -- well, maybe there`s something
missing in this story, too. We`ll look into that more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see two students here throwing punches, then one teen puts the other in a head lock. You can see this on the tape. OK,
there`s the head lock. So here comes the officer. He Tases the student --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With no apparent attempt to otherwise break up the fight.
"We`ve determined that the officer acted in a manner that was safe for everyone. The officer felt that this was the safest route to take since he
didn`t know how close backup was. We believe this was the appropriate response."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a world (ph) in which he thinks that one is choking, is about to get asphyxiated?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s a world (ph) where he`s poorly trained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or that could be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree. I agree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just thank God he didn`t pull out a knife stick (ph) or something, you know what I mean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Students were briefly handcuffed, given tickets for disorderly conduct. I`m back with Rolonda AnneElise, Segun, Darren, Cheryl, and John.
Yes, we know that -- that little exchange with at least he didn`t shoot him. Isn`t that sad that we`re at that point?
GOETZ: That`s right.
ODUOLOWU: That`s a win. That goes in -- that`s in the win column.
PINSKY: That`s sad that we`re -- that`s sad that we`re saying that kind of thing. I don`t -- I didn`t -- I --
WATTS: But the proof is in the pudding. It could have been a lot worse.
KAVINOKY: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, and --
KAVINOKY: Yes, but aren`t you wondering, like shouldn`t the officer -- I think here`s where we get back to this higher level of expectations about -
-
PINSKY: Yes.
KAVINOKY: About what we expect from our officers. Were there less intrusive possibilities like, hey, guys, break it up, or --
PINSKY: Well, it turns out, Darren, that -- this is what`s the interesting thing, it`s why I put this story up here, is because we`re talking about,
let`s get the lapel cams, let`s look at video, and it turns out the video doesn`t tell the whole story. It turns -- the -- first of all, the two that
are fighting is a male and a female.
KAVINOKY: OK. Well --
PINSKY: You can`t see that in the video.
KAVINOKY: So forgive me for, hey, guys. Hey, guys, yes.
PINSKY: Hey, guys. But you also see that -- and the female, the one that`s being choked out, there`s a circle of 30 students surrounding the fight,
cheering them on. You can kind of hear that. They`re all recording with their phones. The officer then screams out. He was the only one on the
scene. There were no school administrators. He`s yelling for them to stop, break it up, like you said. You can`t see that on the video. He puts all
that in the police report. So it begs the question, Cheryl, do we believe - - if people have video (ph), do we believe the police report or the video?
DORSEY: Well, I can`t believe police reports, because we know that they`ll lie, right? And they would tell us that we can`t believe what our lying
eyes show us as well. And so that`s why police officers receive an inordinate amount of training because we`re taught and we practice. And so
when these things happen, we know exactly when it is that we want to do. You don`t get to just tase somebody because you don`t know where backup is.
Listen, if I was a chef and I was going to work every night at making people sick in the restaurant, wouldn`t they get me out of that occupation?
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: If you`re afraid to do your job, if you don`t know how to do your job, if you`re scared to do your job, then you need to seek another
profession.
ODUOLOWU: Do you -- this is why I am so happy I am here. Finally a police officer who is standing side by side with me saying what I`ve been saying
for years, Dr. Drew. It`s not the best and the brightest that are putting these uniforms on. And, unfortunately, they`re not trained as well as they
should. There is a code of silence, like Rolonda said. So, as an individual, we are seeing someone get tased and saying that`s a win.
KAVINOKY: Yes, but one -- one interesting point I think is the one that Drew made, which is that the tape is often incomplete.
(CROSS TALK)
KAVINOKY: Now that we`ve got citizen journalists and lapel, it doesn`t tell the complete story.
PINSKY: Right.
KAVINOKY: And I think we all need to caution against that rush to judgment.
ODUOLOWU: But the stench -- the stench of so many bad encounters with the police means, like you said, we can`t believe our lying eyes or the
documents when the cop writes it down. So it`s all just bad.
WATTS: And then what --
GOETZ: And it counts as a piece of the story. I think what we can`t discredit is the fact that it comes in and it tells an important piece of
the story, especially when we see officers take positions that differ exactly from what we`re seeing with our own eyes.
PINSKY: John.
GOETZ: And so we`re far better off to at least be able to have the evidence. And so if someone`s taking that camera, if someone`s taking that
video, you know, pull -- when you see something going down like this, then absolutely take out your camera and get the video, because it`s better than
nothing.
PINSKY: Yes, better than nothing.
John, do you want to respond to all this?
CARDILLO: I think it`s ridiculously irresponsible for Sergeant Dorsey to say police officers lie and the use of the Taser was irresponsible. That
was a textbook tactical use of a Taser. Somebody was being brutally beaten. The cop was outnumbered. He used a non-lethal device to control the
situation.
[21:30:00] Sergeant Dorsey is being disingenuous. She knows full well that police officers are trained to use one level of force above that of
the offender. That was a good use of a taser and the situation turned out exactly as it was supposed to.
PINSKY: OK.
CARDILLO: One perp under, one victim OK, cop went home safe.
KAVINOKY: At least you didn`t call her an entertainment blogger.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Explain to me this, one level of force above the force above the perp.
DORSEY: That was outrageous and this officer understands that. Listen, when have you in the history of forever heard a police chief, a sergeant,
or a commissioner admit that an officer did something wrong? It doesn`t happen, because they understand a civil suit is probably coming. And so
that`s their story; they`re sticking to it, that that was textbook.
It was outrageous. Officers are trained and taught to escalate and deescalate force. If you don`t have the numbers, you get on your radio --
he saw that fight going as he was walking up. He should have been requesting backup en route to that scene, right, so that when he got there
he had what he need. And they weren`t killing each other, they were wrestling. So let them wrestle a little bit, let them tire themselves out.
Talk to them.
I mean, let`s do a couple steps one, two and three before we just get to eight and nine where we`re shooting and killing and tasering folks.
PINSKY: Go ahead, John. Go ahead.
CARDILLO: Yes, I think it`s ridiculous for a police sergeant to sit there and say let a man beat a woman, let them dance a little bit. That is the
most irresponsible statement I have ever heard from a retired police officer in my life. And Sergeant Dorsey is also looking at this from the
prism of NYPD/LAPD. Smaller departments do not have the kind of backup that her agency did and my agency did. She`s being very short-sighted.
PINSKY: Well, I do want to respond to that, and I want to say a couple of things. One is that`s right, that each and every little town has to field
a team. We got to remember that, and they may not have the financial resources.
Do you want a federal mandate? Do you want everybody having to have the same standard and then we are then pouring funds into those local
communities because the federal government will have to make up the difference, and then requiring that every community maintain a certain
standard? That may not be right for that little community. We`re going to mandate that from Washington? How does that always work out? Real good?
Does not tend to work out.
But I do have this -- we are learning something here, that there are people that are using excessive force. There appears to be a little something-
something going on that we`re evaluating. It`s now getting caught on camera. That`s a good thing.
And I keep saying, why -- and this is what Cheryl was saying, Sergeant Dorsey, was saying as well. We need to have -- this blue wall of silence
you mentioned a lot? We have to have police officers policing themselves, just the way physicians -- we -- for the well-being of not just the
community but also the officers and that organization.
We`ll continue this conversation. Later, what`s behind the violent take- downs of unarmed women? This one was pretty disturbing. Take a look at that. We`ll be back with more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:36:49]
PINSKY: Police in Virginia are defending the officer`s use of a taser in this suspected -- this man is suspected of stealing sunglasses. Take a
look at this one.
Witnesses recorded the officer tasing the man while his hands were on the car. Police say the video does not show the officer`s viewpoint or the
knife that was in the suspect`s pocket.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: They had a legitimate fear. This person has a knife. This person, they`ve told, has a gun. So when you`re looking at was excessive force
used, you`re looking at was this officer act reasonably?
CARDILLO: So I think that tasing was absolutely appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I get it, I get it. We`re not -- I want to support police, but it`s just image after image like that, and we have these conversations in
here every day. What the heck?
Two witnesses recorded the arrest on cell phone cameras. Both thought the use of force was excessive but the department found the officer had acted
appropriately.
Back with Rolonda and Anne Elise, Segun, Darren, Cheryl, and John. Now, people who saw the video thought the man was tased while his hands were on
the car, but as we`ve talked, Darren, the video can be deceiving, right?
KAVINOKY: Certainly, but that`s how I looked at that video, and that was the thing that was most critical to me. If there is some element of proof
that suggests that that`s not the case, but when you look at it, it looks like both his hands are on the car at the time the officer --
PINSKY: So we` judge and jury based on our own lying eyes? Based on a little video angle.
KAVINOKY: But that`s not what I`m not talking about, lying eyes. Lying eyes are that what is captured on the video is incomplete as to the
totality of the story, but it`s a perfect representation of what it depicts. And it depicts that this guy`s hand were on the car when he got
tased.
PINSKY: John, what we apparently don`t see is a knife the officer spotted. It was clipped to the suspect`s pocket. We have a picture of that knife.
Let`s see if we can put it up there. There it is. That`s the knife he had. He had a big old knife in there. And, John, does that then help us
understand what the officer was doing?
CARDILLO: It certainly does. And this guy could have been right-handed. We see the left side of his body bladed. If this guy could have made one
furtive movement, we`re trained in law enforcement that any suspect within 20 feet from us with a knife, and in some cases sometimes 25, are fatally
deadly. Again, the point in --
(CROSSTALK)
KAVINOKY: No, unless you`re trained -- hey John --
CARDILLO: Let me --
KAVINOKY: No, no, no, look. Unless you`re trained to shoot first and ask questions later, the fact that both of his hands were on the car means it`s
not a good tasing.
PINSKY: Go ahead, John.
CARDILLO: You`re wrong, Darren. It`s a taser. A non-lethal device like a taser is appropriately deployed for a legal (sic) like a knife. Darren,
you`re 100 percent wrong here.
KAVINOKY: He wasn`t going for the knife. It would be one thing if the guy was going for the knife. He was complying with the officer. His hands
were on the car when he got itased.
CARDILLO: We were not there. We were not there. We have a video --
KAVINOKY: Thank god we have a video, we know what happened.
CARDILLO: Well the video -- hold on -- from 50 yards away with no sound where we can`t see minutia. It is ridiculous irresponsible to Monday
morning quarterback.
PINSKY: Cheryl?
DORSEY: Yes, you can`t tase someone based on what they might do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
DORSEY: Right, officers -- that`s why officers receive the inordinate amount of training that they do. You have to use that amount of force to
overcome resistance, not overcome a thought. You cannot tase someone because you think they may do a thing, right? That was punishment.
[09:40:00]
And this is what we`re seeing on a national level time and time again, contempt of cop. My term. Piss me off, there`s a price to pay. Don`t
move quick enough, don`t get off the street, don`t turn around, don`t put out your cigarette, there is a price to pay. And a lot of times it`s
death. And the fact it was a taser doesn`t bring me any comfort, because tasers will kill you.
ODUOLOWU: Can you say that one more time? I didn`t hear that --
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU; But Dr. Drew, I grew up in that neighborhood. That`s Fairfax County, Virginia. That`s where I went to high school. So that scares me
because I still have brothers and a sister that live in that neighborhood. The fact you can be --have both hands like this --
PINSKY: Don`t carry a knife.
ODUOLOWU: OK.
PINSKY: The outrage is the kid stole some sunglasses.
ODUOLOWU: Sunglasses with both hands on your car get you tased.
PINKSY: Well, the knife got him tased. Theoretically.
ODUOLOWU: That`s what they say.
PINSKY: Yes, they say.
Anne Elise, settle the score here.
GOETZ: I mean from a legal perspective, the guy probably had a legitimate fear. He could make the argument. From a personal perspective, it was a
punishment. It was -- you nailed it. He was mad that he wasn`t listening to him right away, and so he punished that man.
WATTS: And suppose I had been cutting boxes and I just happened to have a knife.
ODUOLOWU: A box cutter.
WATTS: A box cutter, and I just happened to --
PINSKY: As Rolonda customarily does.
(CROSSTALK)
WATTS: All I`m saying it`s just by circumstances. If I happened to have a knife, just my breathing, putting my hands -- does that give them reason to
shoot at me, whether it`s to shoot and kill?
KAVINOKY: I don`t think police officers are systemically out to do ill will to people.
PINSKY: We got to be careful. Thank you for saying -- no, but listen. No, Darren has got -- we got to say that, because we`re only adding to the
problem if we keep, you know, indoctrinating this idea of the police are a firing squad, as you said. That`s not what we`re talking about. We`re
talking about doing a better job. Darren?
KAVINOKY: Well, I love -- I remember, a couple Christmases ago in New York City, there was a police officer putting shoes on the feet of a homeless
person that the officer went and bought with his own money, when he didn`t appreciate that there were any cameras around, and he did it just because
that was the right humanitarian thing to do. There are plenty of those stories out there.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, I thank god we have police officers, are you kidding me? And we need to treat them with according respect and expect more of
them. And now that we have cameras, let`s have them police themselves. We want that.
I`m not sure there is an easy solution to all of this, but again my own profession keeps occurring to me as something that`s a potential model for
how you do this, and you do it with sunshine. You open it all up and you be honest with each other. But you think in terms helping the officers get
and do a better job. They want to a good job. They don`t want to do a bad job. Of course not. Even if he`s angry and wants to punish somebody, I
mean, he could maybe do something different if he acknowledges or recognizes that`s where his motivation is.
DORSEY: And if recognize that it`s a training issue, it`s OK to say we don`t get it right all the time. I don`t put on a cape when I put on a
uniform, I`m just a regular person. If we understand that an officer has a problem, let`s get him help. Let`s retrain him.
PINSKY: Sergeant Dorsey, I`m sorry, Segun thinks you put on a cape. I`m sure he does.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: A cap and you are superwoman to Segun, there`s no doubt in my mind.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
PINSKY: He looks over there, that`s what he sees.
Next up, a mother`s child watches, a couple children, as she is arrested. And this happens. It`s tough to watch. Apparently after a seat belt
violation. Back after this.
[09:43:21]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This woman says she was the victim of egregious police brutality. Video from July of 2013 tells her story, or at least
part of it.
(SIRENS)
CINDY HAHN, VICTIM: I did nothing! I did nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Hahn said the physical confrontation was sparked by a verbal exchange with an officer. It escalated. She decided
to take a video and report the officer to police. Moments later, that officer pulled her over for a seat belt violation. Cindy says within
seconds she was pinned to the ground, and it got worse when backup arrived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That woman Cindy Hahn was charged with resisting arrest and battery. Two years later, charges were dropped and now she is suing
Carlsbad, California, Police Department.
I`m back with Rolando, Anne Elise, Segun, Darren, Cheryl, and John. Cheryl, I have not spoken to you about that video. I want to get your
reaction to it. I, again, I just want to understand, why all the punching in the face? I mean, how effective is that?
DORSEY: Yes, this was about punishment. This is that thing that I talk about, contempt of cop, where you piss me off and there is a price to pay.
And I think it`s evidenced by the fact that the charges were dropped against this woman. You know, police officers, and not all, you understand
I`m talking about that small minority that are acting (ph) up. Police officers are notorious for beating you up, charging you with resisting or
battery on them, it goes to court, it`s a D.A. reject, I get that. But guess what, I just took 72 hours out of your life because you were in jail,
or for however many days and weeks you spent in jail, the case is dismissed, it`s all good. But it should have never happened.
KAVINOKY: But this was one more example of it`s not the crime, it`s the cover-up. Because what happened with this tape is it wasn`t released until
the officers got up there and testified at her preliminary hearing that they hadn`t thrown any punches. And then of course the tape --
PINSKY: They said they hadn`t thrown any punches?
KAVINOKY: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
KAVINOKY: They raised their right hand and swore to tell the truth and said no punches thrown. And thank god that tape was there.
ODUOLOWU: But, Cheryl, let me ask you something. You don`t exact that force of violence. That`s not your first time doing that.
DORSEY: Absolutely.
ODUOLOWU: Those two -- so -- it`s -- and I know this makes me cringe to even say it, but it feels like the police department is turning into the
Latter Day priesthood where they`re moving bad cop into the new department into new department, and the people that should be governing what they`re
doing are just passing the buck. Because if that`s not his first time, shame on the police department.
[09:50:08]
DORSEY: And that`s why I say police chiefs and sheriffs will minimize bad behavior. They give them that gift of resignation when they`re caught
doing something outrageous and egregious on a national level, and they allow them to resign, and then they go from department to department and
they live to offend again, much like Tim Loman (ph), much like --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hang on, John is going to have a different opinion. Let`s hear what he has to say. John, go ahead.
CARDILLO: No, on this one I actually don`t. I don`t like the video.
PINSKY: What?
CARDILLO: Let me tell you --
ODUOLOWU: John, we`re in agreement?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Go ahead, tell us.
CARDILLO: Yes, we`re in agreement, yes. Let me tell you why. First of all, no reason to punch the woman in the face. Second, and any police
supervisor knows this, if you`re a cop and someone makes a complaint against you, your bosses tell you pretty much stay off their block. Don`t
go near that person. So it`s very suspect that the officer who was complained against pulled over the complainant a short while later. That
part of the story bothered me and leads to a lot of questions about the case.
PINSKY: So what he`s saying, Darren, is that the woman apparently had made a complaint about this cop already, and then he pulls her over and then all
this.
ODUOLOWU: No, he stalked her.
PINSKY: But he -- by the way, he`s the guy that wasn`t misbehaving, it was his buddy that came and misbehaved. Right?
DORSEY: You know what? Where`s the supervisor while all this is going on? Because, as a patrol sergeant, I`m responsible for my officers in the
field. And specifically when there is a use of force, I`m responsible to manage that report. I should be having, as a supervisor, a conversation
with that arrestee and find out how did you get injured? Why was there a use of froce? Let me see the officer`s version. Let me hear what this
suspect has to say.
PINSKY: Right there on the field.
DORSEY; Absolutely. Absolutely.
PINSKY: All right, we`re going to look next at a woman who was choked out, or it seems like she`s being choked out, but the police say it was an
appropriate maneuver. You have a look at this, see what you think. We`ll get into this one and more on this one after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:56:09]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE OFFICER: Get in the car, right now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, you have to tell me! Ma`am. Ma`am!
MALE REPORTER: In order to get Tishina Bay (ph) into a squad car, Officer Bridgette Hyde (ph) holds the woman`s throat. The woman already appears to
already be handcuffed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The video really doesn`t depict everything. It doesn`t tell the whole story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t choke me, ma`am.
MALE REPORTER: While Bay felt that Hyde had choked her, Hetlett (ph) says that`s not a choke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re trained through the academy, there`s two pressure points in the neck area.
MALE REPROTER: Hetlett (ph) adds, given the resistance, he believes Hyde`s response was relatively tame.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my mind she was justified in using the amount of force that she did. In fact, she could have used more force than she did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As you heard there, the police say the use of force was appropriate. The officer was not disciplined. Back with my guest.
Rolonda, what else do you know about this case?
WATTS: Well, the police officer says that the husband and wife were in a big dispute, and when they showed up, the police showed up, the police
officer, female, was trying to get more information. But the wife, according to the police, kept badgering the police officer. And when the
police officer put her into the car, according to the cops, she stuck her leg under the door, kicked the cop`s thighs, legs, and stomach.
Police said she was drunk, reeked of alcohol. The woman never filed a complaint and the whole case was dismissed. And later the woman said that
she decided -- well, she said she would have much rather been tased in this case and that she decided not to take on legal action because her attorney
said that if she fought this, it would take months and that she would face a lot of jail time if she lost.
But here`s a woman who says, please, I would have much rather have been tased.
PINSKY: Sergeant Dorsey, help us with this one. We`re looking at something that`s hard to watch. Appropriate? Again, video does not always
tell the whole story, we`ll all concede that.
DORSEY: Well, for what we see, it`s excessive and it`s unnecessary. And to say that, you know, he was applying a pressure point, I`m choking you.
All right? You know, that`s what we`re taught. Pressure points are on either side of your neck. If I apply pressure, I choke you out. I render
you unconscious.
And so again, it looked like punishment. It looked like you made me mad. It looked like you`re drunk, you`re obnoxious, and so there is a price to
pay.
PINSKY: Segun?
ODUOLOWU: Handcuffed in the back of a car. Handcuffed in the back of a car with another guy on one side. There is two people on one woman. You
can`t tell me it`s not a chokehold. A cop just told me it`s not a chokehold.
PINSKY: And at least the police in Wisconsin, the Wisconsin law apparently requires them to make an arrest of domestic violence cases when both
parties live together, are married, or have children. So they were required to make an arrest to split this thing up. It was a domestic
violence circumstance.
GOETZ: I`m watching this, too, and I`m seeing a woman that is resisting the officers over and over and over again. I think it comes back to the
point that we talk about so much in the show. If you would stop, you`re already bound. You`re going to jail. Get in the car, because all you`re
doing is making it worse. You`re just making it worse.
PINSKY: I -- I understand --
GOETZ: And I think people want to fight, they want to engage. This isn`t the time to fight. It`s not the time to engage. Wait for your lawyers to
do it.
PINSKY: Anne Elise, I know I`m the guy that`s supposed to explain human behavior, but I find one I really don`t understand is the one when they`re
handcuffed to the back of a police car and they`re going to kick windows in and fight. I don`t understand that. I think -- to me that`s now we`re an
altered state. That`s not normal thinking.
GOETZ: All the more reason police need to get control of the situation.
KAVINOKY: Well, clearly there needs to be a conversation about how to behave with police officers as much as there`s also a conversation to be
had with police officers about how to behave in the community.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you tell me right now, you tell me to go hit the ground, I`ll hit the ground. I`ll do whatever you want (ph).
DORSEY: Right, and so I mean --
PINSKY: I know Segun will.
(LAUGHTER)
DORSEY: Again, you know, there are things -- I get that she was being unruly, I get that she was being uncooperative, I get that she was
argumentative. Tie her feet. Strap her in with the seatbelt. There are things you can do without choking her.
PINSKY: But then we would be, oh, they hog-tied her. We`d be talking about that then. So it`s hard to second-guess, and there`s a lot to be
discussed.
Thank you all for watching. I remind you we`re on Snapchat. You can join us there at drdrewhln. Please DVR this program, then you can watch us any
time.
[10:00:01]
That`s, again, that`s our Snapchat address. Thank you all for watching. Panel, guests, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you all for being
here. We`ll see you next time.
(MUSIC)
END
