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Dr. Drew
The Secret Recordings That Reportedly Helped Bring Down Disgraced Former Subway Pitchman, Jared Fogle; Teachers, Students And Cops In A Slugfest On School Grounds; Physical Altercations Between Students And Authority Figures; A Victim Of Violent Crime Thrown Onto The Subway Tracks, Caught On Video; Footage From Sacramento, California, Where A Principal Was Body Slammed By A Student
Aired October 29, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight just revealed, Jared Fogle`s sex tapes. The disgraced Subway pitchman in his own words for the first
time and, I will tell you what, it is chilling. He is talking about sex with children. Plus, classrooms out-of-control. Teachers, students and
cops in a slugfest on school grounds.
It all starts right now at the "Top of the Feed." Now, you are about to hear the secret recordings that reportedly helped bring down disgraced
former Subway pitchman, Jared Fogle. But, first, I want you to take a look back at how he got to this point. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED FOGLE, FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR SUBWAY RESTAURANTS: Hi, I am Jared the Subway guy.
JOSH MINKLER, U.S. ATTORNEY: Fogle admitted that he repeatedly travelled from New York -- from Indiana to New York to engage in commercial sex acts
with victims he knew to be children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The details are flat out stunning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER Documents show explicit images of children as young as 6 were uncovered. Unknowing minors changing clothes, showering and
bathing.
Documents state Fogle engaged in sex with a prostitute, age 17, paid for it and later asked her to introduce him to more girls. Fogle told her, he
would accept a 16-year-old. The younger the girl, the better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY MARGOLIS, FOGLE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jared Fogle expects to go to prison. Jared also knows that he has a medical problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It does not excuse the behavior.
HO: Thank you.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: It is just a way of understanding. Those of us cannot get our head around it. When you are normal, it is like inconceivable. There is a
reason or there is an explanation for how people end up so disturbed. Yes?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, we are going to hear some phone calls secretly recorded by former radio host, Rochelle Herman-Walrod. She says, she immediately began
to cooperate with the FBI in order to record Jared Fogle on the phone.
Now, apparently, he is detailing his sexual attraction to children. The FBI, however, has not confirmed her account. I am warning you, these tapes
contain graphic adult content. Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: Will you (EXPLETIVE WORD) a young boy?
ROCHELLE HERMAN-WALROD, FORMER RADIO HOST: Yes, whatever it is you tell me. I want --
FOGLE: Will you -- a little -- for me?
HERMAN-WALROD: Would that turn you on?
FOGLE: Yes.
HERMAN-WALROD: Tell me.
FOGLE: It would turn me on so much.
HERMAN-WALROD: I would do anything for you.
FOGLE: Oooh, I want Kathy to be involved with us, too, baby.
HERMAN-WALROD: Oh, she will.
FOGLE: She will.
HERMAN-WALROD: She definitely will.
FOGLE: So much. And, I would fly all three of us clear across the world if we need to.
HERMAN-WALROD: Really? Like where?
FOGLE: Uh-huh. To Thailand or wherever we want to go.
HERMAN-WALROD: Yes. Well, where would -- we have to go -- we have to go away somewhere?
FOGLE: Well, we could. It would just make things a lot easier -- if we are going to try to get some young kids with us. It would be a lot easier
probably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, that I just the beginning. It gets more and more chilling and unbelievable from there. Joining me Areva Martin, attorney and legal
analyst; Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and Legal Analyst for Avvo.com; Mike Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC co-host;
Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD retired, author of "The Creation of a Manifesto Black & Blue," and Anahita Sedaghatfar, Attorney Of Counsel to
the Cochran Firm.
Now, Rochelle says she recorded those calls with Fogle across five years pretending to be interested in his desires and encouraging him to reveal
more about his behavior. Who wants to start? Lisa?
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AT THE BLOOM FIRM AND LEGAL ANALYST FOR AVVO.COM: Well, look, good for her, I think.
PINSKY: Five years?
BLOOM: Because she is gathering evidence, and as an attorney, I know you, of course, you have to have evidence. You cannot just have a suspicion or
a hunch, and so she is doing that by taping him with the FBI`s blessing. But, there are so many more questions than answers I think at this point.
Number one, why did it take five years?
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: Was he molesting children during these five years? If so, why did not they swoop in earlier. And, why does she seemed to be so happy about
it going along with it? It is very disturbing.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: I want to jump in there, because I read something about her. And, she said she was victimized and that she
had to play this alter person, that she had to take on this personality to even listen to these conversations. It was as traumatizing to her as a
woman --
BLOOM: She was victimized by Jared?
MARTIN: By listening to it.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: I mean if we listen to it, this is pretty painful and he is asking about her own child. He is asking if he can have sex with her child.
BLOOM: Oh!
MARTIN: Put a camera in her child`s bedroom. So, I think this lady is courageous. I agree with you. There are some questions I would like to
have answered. But, Bravo to her for stepping up, going to the FBI and helping bring down this pedophile.
PINSKY: And, Mike, the two questions would be, how did she tolerate that for five years and keep going?
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S "LOVE LINE" AND KABC CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: And, what was he getting out of it, except to sort of sex talk?
CATHERWOOD: I mean by the sounds of these conversations, it seems like Mr. Fogle is so ill that he probably did not need much.
[21:05:03] PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: I mean he was just so hungry for that type of satisfaction. But, I have to say, I mean I am sure from a legal standpoint, you know, you
both being attorneys, she did gather evidence; but at the same time once she started using her own children as pawns, to me that crosses the line of
what could be considered even reasonable.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Wait a minute. You are blaming her for that?
CATHERWOOD: I am not blaming her. No, no. I am in no way blaming her for what is going on. But, the fact that once he starts asking, "Well, which
one of your kids will be ready first." And, she -- I mean at that point when it does not become a murder case, that is when I am asking questions
about her.
MARTIN: But, she is actually an informant. She is an undercover informant for the FBI. We see undercover informants, correct, LAPD officers, they do
things to entrap a criminal.
CATHERWOOD: But, do they ever --
MARTIN: But, she did not cross the line. We have not heard that she offered up her child for sex. She was having a phone call that led to his
arrest.
BLOOM: But, Areva, even bringing her -- would you bring your own children`s names into it?
PINSKY: No. I do not think she brought them in. He did.
CATHERWOOD: He did. He is the one who brought the children into it.
BLOOM: But, she is playing along.
PINSKY: Right.
MARTIN: But she is catching a criminal. How else can you bring this guy down?
BLOOM: But, it does not -- it should not have took five years.
PINSKY: Cheryl.
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD RETIRED: For me, it is much like as a police officer when I am engaged in prostitution details, where I have to play a
decoy and so as repulsive as a John might be to me, right, I have to pretend to be interested. It is a game.
PINSKY: Help us out. You know, you have been in those shoes. Does it get in some ways sort of gratifying -- not in any kind of perverse way, but,
like "Oh, now, I got him." And, the deeper you are go, the more you want them to hang themselves.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Well, obviously, it is going to be different from person to person, right? And, I can remember as an undercover vice officer being
approached by someone that I would not be attracted to normally. I thought he was repulsive
And, I really wanted him to go away, because I was embarrassed to even be seen in public with this guy as he is trying to get me up to a room. And,
so it became a game and at some point, I really did just want to get him. And, that is probably where she was.
PINSKY: That is what I think. Anahita, is there any time in which this person during his defense could try to claim mental health? You heard --
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY OF COUNSEL TO THE COCHRAN FIRM: Yes.
PINSKY: -- the defense attorneys say, "Oh, you got a medical problem."
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, too late, man. Too late.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, that is exactly what I was going to talk about. Because the attorney said that he was very calculated. OK? He said, "He
has a medical problem but he did not elaborate.
And, I think what the attorney is doing there is setting the stage for the arguments he is going to make in sentencing to ask the judge for leniency,
because he faces 5 to 13 years. And, the attorney is going to probably argue he suffers from some mental illness. Perhaps, he was a child who was
molested --
PINSKY: There is no doubt about that.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Should every pedophile that suffers from a medical problems --
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
BLOOM: -- should that give them all a pass because, boo-hoo-hoo --
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, it is not a pass. But, as a defense attorney, those are the arguments that are going to frankly be made.
PINSKY: All right. To me it is all gross after the fact. That is a good defense if somebody almost does something or thinking they are going to do
something, but that is when you get help, everybody. Get help before you get into the situation.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: You do not want to talk to Anahita. You might like her but --
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, hold on a second. It is not a defense. I did not say it is a defense. I said it is a mitigating factor.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough for the sentencing.
SEDAGHATFAR: For the sentencing --
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- and still call me.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: All right. To persuade -- in order to persuade him more, Rochelle does create this sort of pretend pool party she claims she is going to have
for her kids. These is where kids coming into a little bit.
Listen, how Jared planned to target children at the party. You got to hear this. And, again, a warning, this content is not for the faint of heart.
It is graphic. It is disturbing. Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FOGLE: Are any of your kids` friends that you think are pretty hot or what -- what do you think?
HERMAN-WALROD: oh, yeah. That is why -- I mean, that is why it was exciting.
FOGLE : Like which -- like which -- like which ones? I mean I think it is going to be just trying to se it up as best we can and trying to get them
sexed up as we can and then sort of taking it from there and seeing what sort of pans out, you know.
HERMAN-WALROD: Mm hmm
FOGLE: Honestly, I think -- I mean, I think it is going to be you in as skimpy an outfit as we can get you in, number one.
HERMAN-WALROD: Mm hmm
FOGLE: You know, and just really getting you seeing which girls and which guys are checking you out and which ones keep looking and that kind of
thing, and then trying to set it up where we get you -- you know we get a - - we get the three of us, you know -- so it is separated out a little bit.
HERMAN-WALROD: Mm hmm
FOGLE: I think that would be the best.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do you understand what he is talking about? He is talking about an adult woman dressing up to try to attract a little child, a boy or a
girl. This is part of the craziness of these perpetrators. They believe the children are driving the hookup.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: The children want this. It makes -- I have to take a break and go vomit now.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Next, we will continue this up. You will hear more of this. And, later, chaos in the classroom. Why are there so many physical altercations
between students and authority figures, it seemingly at least these days? We will talk about it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:02] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NEW YORK CORRESPONDENT: Jared claimed to have lost 245 pounds in one year and got very, very rich.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Federal and State Law Enforcement agents raided Fogle`s home in Indiana. They carted off computers and
other electronics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Explicit images of children as young as 6 were uncovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Knowing and distributing and viewing these child pornography videos at the head of his foundation secretly
taped of minors, as they were getting in and out of the showers. They had no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. JOSH MINKLER, U.S. ATTORNEY: This is about using wealth, status and secrecy to illegally exploit children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. JEREMY MARGOLIS, FOGLE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jared also knows that he has a medical problem. He has already sought evaluation by a world class
psychiatrist, experienced in these matters and he will seek appropriate treatment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A former journalist is sharing conversations she had secretly recorded with Jared Fogle. She says her tapes helped the FBI arrest the
former Subway spokesman on the child pornography charges.
[21:15:05] She was really shocked when Fogle actually brought her children, her own children, into the conversation. Take a look at this
from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN-WALROD: Jared Fogle is a monster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FOGLE: How old are your kids again?
HERMAN-WALROD: 10 and 11.
FOGLE: Will you let me see you kids naked?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Just when you thought it could not get more shocking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL, HOST OF THE "DR. PHIL" SHOW: He wants you to watch him have sex with a young girl. Watch you perform sex acts with a 10-year-old boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER (voice-over): It does.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HERMAN-WALROD: Tell me about the best time with a little girl or a little boy. How old?
FOGLE: Like 11 or 12, something like that. I just (EXPLETIVE WORD) out of her. You know, it was just -- it was wonderful.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: I am back with Areva, Lisa, Mike, Cheryl, Anahita. Lisa, you were a little intrigued by the way he thought about his victims.
BLOOM: Yes. And, the way that he talked to her about luring them, you know, I have heard so many cases about pedophiles. And, people always
wondered, "Did the mother know? Did the girlfriend know?"
And, I always say do not hold them responsible. Pedophiles usually have this big secret, and they keep it to themselves. But, here is this guy
talking and talking and talking and trying to get her involved in it.
PINSKY: He thinks she is one of them. You see --
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: He thinks she is a pedophile, too.
BLOOM: Right, because she plays along.
MARTIN: And, we were talking about, who knew in this case. So, often in these cases you do not have someone with deep pockets. In this case, you
have this huge billion dollar corporation, Subway. And, what the journalist said is that she reported this not only to the FBI, but she also
reported it to Subway.
And, we know a lot of these kids were brought in to Jared`s space because he held these camps. They were sponsored by Subway all over the country.
So, I think in a addition to the criminal case, we are going to see lots of civil lawsuits. Suits being filed against Subway because Jared was their
agent. He was their employee. He was the spokesperson for this billion- dollar company.
PINSKY: Do either of you have any idea how this is going to go in prison for him? I mean, is he going to survive prison? Cheryl.
SEDAGHATFAR: I am going to go -- I do not think it is going to go well. I have to say I think entering into the plea agreement that he did was the
best thing he could have done, because he only faces 5 to 13 years, which - - I mean there were 14 victims here. So, that is a pretty good plea deal.
PINSKY: Well, is this new tape going to bring up more potential criminal case?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, no. I think that tape was already used in bringing these charges --
PINSKY: I see.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, he is entered into the agreement. I think it is a great agreement for him. Because if he went to trial, he would face 50 years in
prison, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: But, even -- Cheryl --
MARTIN: Great agreement for him, but horrible for these kids.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: And, is he going to survive such as it is, is my question?
SERGEANT DORSEY: You know, he will not be in gen pop for sure. They are going to put him in special lockup. But, even there, people can get to you.
And, all you need is a deputy to be looking in his log or writing something or bending down to pick up a pencil and bad things can happen really quick.
CATHERWOOD: Then he will continually get the $5 foot long, you know? Even behind bars.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: It just occurred to me that if somebody else got -- what do you call special population?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Gen pop.
PINSKY: No. But, what is the other one?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Segregated.
PINSKY: Segregated.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Segregated.
PINSKY: The segregated guys are bad guys.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, sometimes bad guys in the eyes of the other prisoners, right? But, it seems to me one of those guys could restore his status by doing a
little something-something, do you know what I mean? It just seems like a terrible -- I do not know how he survives it.
BLOOM: You can get the high end of the sentence. Thirteen years for 14 victims is still, in my view, a very light sentence. He is still a young
man. I do not know what he is, maybe middle aged. He can get out and he can do this over and over again. When are we going to take child sexual
abuse seriously? This should be a light sentence.
MARTIN: Well, that is what makes me angry even as a lawyer. We know that these plea deals happen all the time, and so few cases go to trial. But,
it is really, really irritating to me to sit here and watch guy, who has been caught on tape with so many victims looking at only possibly seven
years and he is out. He is out right now awaiting his sentence. That is something that is just wrong with our criminal justice system,
particularly, when it comes to kids.
PINSKY: And, by the way, each of these victims has a lifetime of trouble ahead of them.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Yes.
BLOOM: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think part of that, though, could be that they do not want to put these children through the pain and trauma of going to trial. They
have to take into consideration what the families want and what the victims want in particular.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
CATHERWOOD: You see the police --
SEDAGHATFAR: But, Dr. Drew --
CATHERWOOD: -- when they were raiding his house --
SEDAGHATFAR: I just want to say one thing about --
CATHERWOOD: -- I was shocked. No one was wearing gloves.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: That tape that you played, I mean do not we see that he is kind of like the M.O. of a pedophile. They have like a consistent way --
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- of how they lure their victims.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is almost like a scene that we see with a lot of pedophiles and I see him mirroring that.
PINSKY: Yes, absolutely. It is a weird -- It can be -- oftentimes they were victims themselves.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: They have a weird identification with the child as a sexual object and believed the children wants to be a part of this, but they are really
sick. The thing that is so weird about it is they can pick their victims with uncanny accuracy.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And, then they just pick on the vulnerable kids. Now, I am going to show you some more tape here. On this tape, he tells the journalist,
Fogle does, how easy it is for him to lure a child into sex. Now, again, another warning. This tapes are graphic, adult content. Listen to this
from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN-WALROD: What turns you on the most? Like the young girls or the young boys?
FOGLE: You know, both of them do.
[21:20:00] HERMAN-WALROD: They do? How do they --
FOGLE: Both of them.
HERMAN-WALROD: Can you -- can you explain? I really want to know.
FOGLE: Mm hmm. OK, see, I mean, I need to see if one of these little boys are a possibility for us.
HERMAN-WALROD: Yes.
FOGLE: Would that be, would that turn you on?
HERMAN-WALROD: Well, how would we -- how -- how would that happen? How would we -- how would that happen?
FOGLE: Well, if we get them segregated out, you know, in this thing where it is just the three of us. You know, we sort of, you know, we just sort
of start talking or whatever and we just start sharing stories and then, you know, we get a little closer, and a little closer, and a little closer,
and before you know it, you know. It just -- it starts to happen.
HERMAN-WALROD: So, it is not that hard to do?
FOGLE: No, not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Not that hard to do. And, Cheryl, you have been in proximity with these guys, an object of their affections or whatever it is that drives
them. How do you hear that tape?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Well, he is a predator.
PINSKY: Yes. It is like a wolf that is trying going after prey .
SERGEANT DORSEY: It is just that he has a proclivity to children. He is no different than any other predator, any other abuser who hones in on the,
you know -- just like on the Serengeti, right? They look for that wilder beast that has a hitch in his gilt along. And, that is the one that you go
for. And, so, he is looking for those children whose parents are not paying attention, who might --
PINSKY: I think -- we have finally have that -- is that what is in the next tape, guys, control room, about how he selects the victims. So, take
a listen to this from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: I like all ages. That is the thing, I mean. I like all of them, you know.
HERMAN-WALROD: Well, what makes it different. I mean, from one age to another? Why does --
FOGLE: Well, it depends which -- who is ready for what. You know, who is going to give you the glance. You know what I mean? You know, but I
think that girl from the broken home could be a possibility, you know.
HERMAN-WALROD: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: I definitely think that and, um -- you know, just show some affection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I have to remind people these are fictional children that Rochelle described to Jared. No child was actually ever in danger according to the
FBI and Rochelle. The reason I want people to look at these tapes is you should not turn away from this. You should learn from it. There is not
dozens of people like that out there. There are thousands. There are hundreds of thousands out there. Lisa?
BLOOM: You know, and I want to say this about victims, because I have represented so many. It is very important that they go into court and
testify, and that they get supported by their lawyers and by the criminal justice system. And, that they are not told, "This is going to be terrible
for you. You should run away and hide. Let us give him a sweet plea deal." I mean with all due respect, that is very damaging to victims and
it allows this kind of thing to fester and continue.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Go ahead.
MARTIN: I just think the important part about this story, too, that this is a guy held out to be so wholesome, the guy next door. So, the other
lesson in this is anybody can be a pedophile, anybody can be a pedophile.
PINSKY: Yes. And, it is all -- a lot of it more easily accessed through the internet. Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly, like he knew how to pick his victims, someone from a broken home. Give her love. Give her attention. He talked about how he
has --
PINSKY: Move closer. Move closer.
SEDAGHATFAR: Move closer.
PINSKY: Move closer .
SEDAGHATFAR: It is like a method that they have. It is an M.O.
BLOOM: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, he had prostitutes on his payroll. So, he was having prostitutes find him young girls and he would give them a referral fee and
that was the text message the FBI sees, where he said, "Oh, I like them all ages" but, quote, "The younger the better."
PINSKY: OK.
SEDAGHATFAR: He is sick.
PINSKY: We are going to -- Let us leave this one behind. Again, going to get my nausea medication. Let us all take a deep, cleansing breath,
everybody. But let us not forget this. Let us not shrink from it. We have gone through a phase in this country.
I call it a pandemic of adverse childhood experiences particularly physical and sexual abuse of children. And, if people will say things like, "Well,
we are just talking about it now." Nonsense. One of these guys, think how many hundreds of kids he got his hand on and then amongst those kids, a
certain percentage themselves perpetuate the cycle. It builds massively and rapidly.
We must put a stop to it. And, I agree, I think the laws are a little too lenient on this. We have to come crashing down on this one. And, us as
parents need to be hyper, hyper vigilant. It can happen to anyone. The scariest thing I ever heard a parent say is not my kid.
Next up, reading, writing and brawling. Some classrooms in America are out of control. We will get back to it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:24:32] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: That is a man on a little girl.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely.
ODUOLOWU: So, forget -- forget color. That is a grown man and if you read his bio, he is a power lifter. He is doing that to a young girl. That is
abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. CURTIS WILSON, RICHLAND COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: The student was asked to leave the class several times by the instructor at the school, the
assistant principal was there as well and then the officer was called on scene to actually have the student removed from that location, the student
refused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When you see a video like what we have seen, it certainly alarms you and makes you a little bit afraid of what is actually
happening within our schools.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Once he is brought in, he is the cop. He has the lawful authority to tell you to do something, you have the
responsibility to do it. When you do not do it, he is allowed to go up a spectrum of force to get you to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEON LOTT, RICHLAND COUNTY SHERIFF: He take the student up and he threw the student across the room. That is not a proper technique and should not
be used in law enforcement. And, based on that, that is a violation of our policy. And, approximately 20 minutes ago School Resource Officer Ben
Fields was terminated from the Richland County Sheriff`s Department.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is South Carolina Deputy as you hear there was fired for violently handling a student, who refused to leave a classroom. The
student resisted, kind of aggressively, but does that excuse his behavior? Here is a little more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN FIELDS, SOUTH CAROLINA DEPUTY: Put your hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.
[21:30:00] Put your hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Areva, Lisa, Mike, Cheryl and Anahita. Joining us via Skype John Cardillo, former NYPD officer, host of "The John Cardillo"
show 1290 WJNO. All right, John, you tell us, was that force justified?
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER AND HOST OF "THE JOHN CARDILLO SHOW" ON 1290 WJNO: I think it was. 12 requests -- hold on. Let me finish.
BLOOM: Oh!
CARDILLO: Because, it is rude, Areva, jumping in right away --
PINSKY: That was not Areva. That was not Areva.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Hello!
PINSKY: It is Lisa for a change.
MARTIN: Are you looking for a fight from Areva. He is setting it though.
CARDILLO: I attacked poor Areva off the bat. Listen, here it is. The teacher and the assistant principal asked the kid 12 times. What about
every other kid in the classroom who wanted to learn? What about the teacher who wanted to teach? The girl punched him in the face.
Look, forcible removals are not pleasant but, then again, pleasant people do not need to be forcibly removed. We have this moronic notion that
forcible removals and arrests need to look really nice and pretty. They do not. The kid punched him in the face. She had 12 opportunities to leave
on her own. She refused. She created the level of force. End of story.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what do you say?
SERGEANT DORSEY: No. There is no your urgency about this. And, listen, I do not care whether or not she complied, it is inherent to police work.
People do not always do what we ask. People are not always happy, right? And, she is a young lady. If you do not have the temperament to deal with
children, then you should not be in a school.
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: You also told me that waiting and taking a breath is always -- well, not always but is often the best policy.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Absolutely. There is no urgency. How about having a conversation with her and telling her I got backup -- no, no, listen. I am
talking right now. Hold on.
PINSKY: Hold on, John.
SERGEANT DORSEY: I am talking right now. Have a conversation with her, give her an opportunity and then request backup. There was no urgency.
There was no exigent circumstance. He could have requested a female officer to come and deal with this female student and, understand, she just
lost her mom. There are things going on that the administrators should have been aware of and they should have dealt with her a little more
sympathetically, I believe.
PINSKY: Go ahead, john.
CARDILLO: Cheryl, you are always anti-cop. I am so sick of hearing that you are a cop. There comes a point, the assistant principal gave the SRO,
the order to remove her. They spoke to the girl 12 times.
PINSKY: But, John -- John, I have a simpler question. If what he did was appropriate, why was he fired?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Absolutely.
CARDILLO: Wait . Hold on. Good question. The sheriff is a political hack. Let me finish. Hold on. This same sheriff is the guy who
persecuted Michael Phelps for a photograph of Michael Phelps smoking a bong allegedly in his jurisdiction. The same sheriff persecuted Darren Wilson
before the DOJ investigation cleared him. The sheriff was not right. The firing means nothing to me.
PINSKY: OK. We cannot substantiate that HLN or CNN. But, what is it, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: There is -- you know, there is some validity to the argument that at some point something has to be done about this student.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: It all that we have heard, you know, about her disciplinary problems are true. But I am just looking at it as a dude, and if he were
just to -- at the first part when he grabbed her and carried her out of the class, it seems to -- that was his job to remove her from the class. I do
not know where on earth it became OK when he just threw her -- flung her across the room and smashed her to the ground. I mean it seems wildly
unnecessary.
PINSKY: Lisa.
BLOOM: Yes, and let us keep in mind that the reports are now that her arm is in a cast. She has a broken arm. She got a number of injuries, and
those are only her physical injuries. Do we have such a failure of imagination in this country that we have a girl quietly sitting at her desk
and not leaving when she is asked to leave, the only thing we can think of is beating the crap out of her by a big 300-pound body builder. Are you
kidding me?
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: That is something to point out, that this man was definitely capable, strength-wise to just continually just pick her up and carry her.
PINSKY: I have almost have the feeling that is what he was doing. He is going to pick the desk up and she flung herself back and it flipped over.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Why give him the benefit of the doubt --
CATHERWOOD: But, then why -- I mean you clearly see him make the decision to chuck her across the room.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. I want to say kudos to the department for taking swift action, for terminating him, for investigating this. It took them two
days. I think they did the right thing. And, they did the right thing. And, I do not think there is any justification for what the officer did. I
mean she is --
MARTIN: Can I say something that --
SEDAGHATFAR: She is a 16-year-old girl. She is sitting. She is not a threat to the officer. She is not a threat to anybody in the classroom.
Officers, and you can correct me if I am wrong, they are trained in de- escalation of situations not escalation.
PINSKY: Well, as Cheryl has taught me, a lot of this is sort of punishment when officers feel sort of --
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, when they do not get their way, when the person does not listen.
PINSKY: Right?
BLOOM: And, that is called assault. You physically take somebody down because you are mad and you are a police officer or anybody else, that is
called assault.
MARTIN: And, John --
CATHERWOOD: But, I will say to point out what Areva said -- excuse me, what Anahita said is that this girl was not a threat to anyone.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: That is not necessarily true in that -- She may not have been a physical threat but if someone is that lacking in respect for authority,
there is no possibility the other kids in the school could have been learning.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I say, use reasonable force.
PINSKY: But, here is the deal.
SEDAGHATFAR: Go behind her, handcuff her.
PINSKY: What I want to do. Before I end this little segment. I need there to be some conflict between Areva and John. I will let that happen.
(LAUGHING)
[21:35:02] MARTIN: I kind to have to say something to John.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
MARTIN: John, you are attacking Cheryl saying that Cheryl is anti-cop.
CARDILLO: Yes.
MARTIN: You are anti-victim.
CARDILLO: No, I am not.
MARTIN: If ever there was a case -- let me talk, John. You want a debate, you have to let me talk. If there was ever a case, where you should stand
up and say the cop was wrong, this is that case.
This is a kid sitting in a classroom. She is not on the street. You cannot call her a thug. You cannot call her any of those nasty things that
you cops like to call victims. He picks her up and throws her on the ground, John.
PINSKY: Let us hear John. Let us hear, John. Last thought, John. Go ahead.
CARDILLO: Last thought is the assistant principal directed him to do it. They asked 12 times.
MARTIN: Fire the principal.
CARDILLO: 12 times.
PINSKY: OK. We will leave it right there.
CARDILLO: 12 times.
BLOOM: The principal should be tired, too.
MARTIN: Fire the principal as well.
CARDILLO: The principal should be fired. Fire the principal for wanting kids to learn.
PINSKY: A lot more to get into here. Later, I have a victim of violent crime thrown onto the Subway tracks. This is caught on video. Oh, my
goodness. There it goes. Check it out. We will be back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That footage from Sacramento, California, where a principal was body slammed by a student. In this case, a School Resource Officer was
able to break up the fight and then arrested three of the students.
I am back with Areva, Lisa, Mike, Cheryl, Anahita, and John. Now, Cheryl, I am looking at this footage and you know we have been talking a little bit
about violence in schools these days. People are taking aim at the resource officers. But the reason we have so many of them is because of
incidents like this, right?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Right. And, so, you know, I am assuming that he was not the only one on campus there because, again, when there is turmoil we want
the numbers in our favor. We never want to take on a student one-on-one. And, that is why I thought it would have made more sense if the officer in
the instance of Spring Valley had another officer there to assist him to get control.
PINSKY: John, I want to read you a tweet that I guess you put out or maybe it was a student that said this? Control room, help me. This is John, all
right. Here is an honor student body slamming his principal while others laugh. Good thing cops did not use force on him. John?
CARDILLO: Yes, I said that. And, look one comment I want to make real quick. Cheryl is looking at this through the prism of LAPD-NYPD. The
Richland County Sheriff`s Department is 700 deputies.
They do not have the man power to have two SROs in this school. It is not a large school. But, this video we just saw of the principal is what
happens when we treat these little angels with kid gloves. Principals and faculty get slammed around and brutalized.
BLOOM: You know, most cases I do not think we need any police in schools. You know, we did not used to have police in school. Oh, really? Yes, oh,
really. Because most of the time --
PINSKY: You know where this came from --
BLOOM: This girl in the first video --
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Wait. You know where this came from. This came from Colorado, came from columbine.
BLOOM: OK.
PINSKY: That is why it was started the process.
BLOOM: Well, if we could get rid of guns in America then we would not have to have cops everywhere.
MARTIN: But, I think, John just made our point. He talked about this Spring Valley Sheriff`s Department or the Sheriff`s department in that
county, not having a lot of officers and only having one officer. All the more reason that one officer needs to be well trained to deal with a whole
range of situations.
We cannot have one officer out there that is charged and hyped like that guy was ready to take a student down that does not have those de-escalation
skills that are so important and needed in that situation.
CATHERWOOD: I wonder also --
SERGEANT DORSEY: And, while he may not have a backup, he certainly should have common sense. How about that?
PINSKY: Let me bring -- I will show you another story. This is out of a classroom in Texas. A language and arts teacher at Chapin High drew a
penis over a student`s assignment. She says it is because the student was not doing his work in class. The student then posted the drawing online
and that is when the mom found out and guess what complained.
Do not get any ideas, Mike. This would be your idea of teaching. The parent of the student contacted the teacher who then apologized. And,
Anahita, this actually bothers me. The student is going to take no action against the teacher, because she recognized her mistake and apologized.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. She said I am sorry.
PINSKY: So, the next time -- the school is not rather but next time I get a speeding ticket, I am sorry. I am sorry. Therefore, good-bye, officer.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that she is a female teacher doing this to a male student, and we have seen this with
female teachers often. They are having sex with their underaged student --
PINSKY: They get nailed. Come on.
SEDAGHATFAR: And people laugh. People laugh about it.
PINSKY: People laugh, but they --
SEDAGHATFAR: They think it is cool.
PINSKY: But there is action taken against those women.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: I love drawing penises on stuff. Drew, back me up. I mean that is one of my favorite things to do.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Slow down. Let me answer that. Yes, that is one of my favorite things to do.
CATHERWOOD: You leave any paperwork around me, it is going to get a penis drawn on it.
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: If he did that --
CATHERWOOD: Listen. Hold on. Hold on.
PINSKY: If he did that to you -- if you are preparing for this and he does it to Anahita, what is going to happen to him?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: It is my favorite thing to do. But, a high school student regardless of -- his high school teacher regardless of their gender, that
is way wrong. It is way, way wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Yes, and the problem is --
SEDAGHATFAR: Definitely wrong.
BLOOM: The problem is she did it to shame him. This was supposed to embarrass him in the classroom. And, whether it did or not, shaming is not
an appropriate way of disciplining kids.
MARTIN: But, we are talking about why the school did not take any action. I think the school was completely wrong by not disciplining this teacher.
The teacher crossed the line.
SEDAGHATFAR: Because she apologized.
PINSKY: I just believe we are going to see Mr. Garrison do something like this on South Park soon.
CATHERWOOD: Right. I cannot picture of that drawing -- I mean if there are any --
(LAUGHING)
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: You can catch it online.
PINSKY: All right. Well, look. We will leave that one. That story was specially selected for Mike because we knew he have mixed feelings about
it. But, my feeling is, look, I agree with you.
Shame does not work. Shame is not an effective way to shape behavior. Often time, kids that are misbehaving already have a load of shame onboard.
That is one of the reasons they are misbehaving.
[21:45:07] Drawing obscene photos as a way of shaping the behavior of young adults that you are trying to raise into effective productive adults,
I do not think that is what we want to be here.
And, then, finally the other thing we did not talk about with the kids acting out violently, the level of entitlement that sort of pervades all of
this, which is "I am entitled to do as I want, man, and have no consequences." We have to think about that, too.
Next up, robbed, tased, pushed onto Subway tracks. We will show you how that story ends after the break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00] PINSKY: It is time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and Instagram Feeds. Areva,
you are first.
MARTIN: Yes, this is a sad story. Everyone remembers Jahi McMath. So, Jahi was declared brain dead on December 20, 2013 after complications from
a surgery. Now, the family has been keeping her on this ventilator hooked to feeding tubes ever since the tragedy happened. Now, recently, she had
her 15th birthday. That was Sunday. The family braided her hair and posted pictures along with the following message on Facebook.
This is what they said. "They said she was dead, dead, dead. They said she will not last long. They claim she was just going to last a few weeks.
Who are they? Just mere human beings. Who will keep learning each new day that there is he who is greater than they, `God, the creator`." Yesterday
they also posted a video of Jahi moving her fingers.
PINSKY: No, she does not move her fingers.
MARTIN: Proof that she is alive.
PINSKY: No. She is not moving.
MARTIN: I know, Dr. Drew. You said forever that Jahi will never wake up.
PINSKY: There it is. That is all reflexive. Your muscles still contract. I can run an electrical current down her muscles, they will contract.
MARTIN: Do you think there is any hope with this girl?
PINSKY: There is zero, empty set. This is a brain prep -- which we call a brain prep. You can keep a brain prep alive indefinitely. By alive, the
tissue alive. The person, the brain, gone, never coming back. Impossible.
MARTIN: This family is Christianity --
PINSKY: Listen. They are playing God. They are playing God with this poor body. That is the part that makes me upset. The people are allowing
this family to avoid their grieving and to act out on this piece of flesh really -- those are the people I hold accountable here.
This poor family is struggling to deal what they got before them. Somebody is giving them hope where there is none. There is zero possibility. I do
not care. There has never been a miracle like that. It has never occurred. So, say what you will about miracles, this has never happened.
Lisa, go ahead.
BLOOM: Yes. It was very sad. What I have is completely different. This is a very dramatic train attack in Philadelphia. So, check this out. This
is from the southeastern Pennsylvania transportation authority. So, the Subway and it is just after midnight on a Sunday morning.
Two people rob a man on the underground train. As soon as he pulls in, they grab his backpack. They go off. He chases them. Look, there he is
down, and then this remarkable thing happens. The woman in the couple takes out a taser and shoots him with the taser.
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Is the bad guy shooting?
BLOOM: Yes. The bad girl, woman -- and then they throw him onto the tracks and there he is and he almost hits that third rail, down onto the
tracks. Watch. I think maybe we are going to show that part again. I mean this is the very -- Anybody who takes the Subway --
PINSKY: There it is.
BLOOM: That is absolutely the scariest thing you can imagine.
PINSKY: And, if he hit the electrical rail it would be over.
BLOOM: Yes. Thank God. It is a 700 volt rail, but it was covered with a thick protective coating, so he is OK.
PINSKY: And, he was awake? He got out of there before a train came?
BLOOM: Yes, he is OK. He escaped. Thank God.
PINSKY: And, these are the --
BLOOM: And, these are the two people still at-large. Anybody in the Philadelphia area has seen the people call 911.
PINSKY: Wow.
CATHERWOOD: Wow.
PINSKY: All right. Mike, what do you got?
CATHERWOOD: An 83-year-old, Joyce Kingsley at home in Michigan, Monday night, she hears a loud boom. Driver cut from the interstate through
bushes, trees, at 60 miles per hour before stopping on the roof -- on the roof! Joy says she was just watching T.V. inside. She had it up pretty
loud but this was much louder.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Wait. Is there a bridge nearby?
CATHERWOOD: Yes. There is like an embankment that leads up to her roof. Can you imagine?
PINSKY: You are sitting there --
MARTIN: Thank God it did not --
CATHERWOOD: No drugs or alcohol supposedly on the driver, just suffering from low blood sugar when they lost control and treated at the scene. So,
only damage is to the roof.
PINSKY: I hope that is an insulin related low blood sugar, not some sort of nonsensical --
CATHERWOOD: The take home message is drive G.M. Not Ford.
MARTIN: Drive the streets.
BLOOM: And have a strong roof.
PINSKY: I was just thinking, you better hope you are on drugs and alcohol if that is how you drive your car. You know what I mean, but hypoglycemia
-- by the way -- real hypoglycemia, medication induced hypoglycemia can really shut your brain off. You can go unconscious. All right. Next up,
I have another Walmart video. Yes, yes.
MARTIN: A brawl?
PINSKY: Yes, we call it brawl-mart now. This time, I believe, it is two employees. Employees cannot even resist getting involved in the action.
There they are with daisies on their backs. Nice. Be right back with more of this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:54:38] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time now for my "Click Fix." Yes, another fight from Brawl- Mart, as we call it. This time it is in the underwear section, not the deodorant section. This is between two employees as opposed to two
customers. It happened in Pennsylvania earlier this month. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hey, hey! Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BYSTANDER (1): She (EXPLETIVE WORD) the redhead up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BYSTANDER (2): They both deserve to get fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Wow.
PINSKY: No reports of injuries thankfully, but there is something terribly ironic about those daisies on their backs.
BLOOM: I think those bras look bullet proof, some of them.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: What makes people crazy in the Walmart?
PINSKY: I know. Yes. Those are light bulbs on their back? Control room, it is only light bulbs? It looks like a flower.
BLOOM: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: This was not Bloomingdale`s?
PINSKY: Now. It is not Bergdorf Goodman. It was Walmart. Walmart. No charges were file, so we are still not sure what the fight was even about.
Thank you, everybody for being here. Thank you, panels for being a part of this.
Reminder, we are on Snap Chat. You can join us there @DrDrewHLN. And, please do DVR us. Then you can watch us anytime. Be sure to check out our
Facebook after show when we discuss things that come up during the show here today. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.
[22:00:07] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
