Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
New Statements From Subway`s Former Spokesman; Newly Discovered Classroom Video Shows Violence Between A Student And A Substitute Teacher; Students Rallying Behind The Classroom Cop Who Had Been Fired For Throwing A Student Across The Room; Student Caught On Camera Bullying And Threatening A Teacher; Rachel Dolezal Resigned as President Of A Local NAACP Chapter; Nicki Minaj`s Halloween Video Sparks Anger, Controversy; Canadian Pharmacy Gave Trick Or Treaters Bipolar Meds Instead Of Candies; Uber Driver Assaulted By An Intoxicated Passenger. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 02, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, there is more from Subway`s former Spokesman. New statements about children and disgusting statements
about sex.
Plus, a newly discovered classroom video violence. This time between a student and a substitute teacher.
It all starts right now with the "Top of the Feed." Now, you are about to hear a secret recordings that a journalist said brought down former Subway
Spokesman Jared Fogle. Rochelle Herman-Waldron says she worked with the FBI for four years taping her phone calls with Jared.
I do not understand how she tolerated this, because he was detailing his sexual attraction to children throughout. But, her plan became terrifying
when Jared brought up her own children as objects of his fantasies. These tapes contain graphic adult content. Careful. Watch this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROCHELLE HERMAN-WALDRON, FORMER RADIO SHOW HOST: You are around kids a lot. I mean, you must be able to experience different things.
JARED FOGLE, SUBWAY`S FORMER SPOKESMAN, CHILD MOLESTER: Exactly.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Would you -- would you -- would you let me see your kids -- will you let me see your kids naked?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: That would be OK?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Sure. They are very comfortable.
FOGLE: Good.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Mm hmm.
FOGLE: How old are your kids again?
HERMAN-WALDRON: 10 and 11.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Mm hmm.
FOGLE: You have -- you have a boy and a girl?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: I would love to see them naked.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Jared?
FOGLE: So, which of your kids do you think I would like better seeing naked, your son or your daughter?
HERMAN-WALDRON: I do not know. You seem to like both girls and boys.
FOGLE: Uh-huh.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, my God. I know it is just past Halloween, but that is spookier than any Halloween horror story I could imagine. Joining me, Loni
Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell"; Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com; Michael Catherwood, my "Love
Line" and KABC radio co-host; Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for Avvo.com; Jena Kravitz, Clinical
Neuropsychologist.
My question -- I guess I will start with Loni. How does she pull this off for so long? And, why does the FBI take so long to -- before letting this
woman off the hook a little bit?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, I was surprised that it took four years. And, when you listen to these tapes, and there is a lot of it, your
stomach churns. And, it is hard to understand how she was able to do it. When you hear her talk about it, you see the anguish and the emotional
turmoil that it put her through.
She literally had to play along with him to keep him talking. She would be a part of his fantasies as he is having phone sex, talking to her about
kids, about her and him having sex with kids together, about getting her own children involved. And, you can hear the effect that it is having on
him and the fact that she is not throwing up in the phone is really amazing.
PINSKY: Right.
COOMBS: But, thank heavens she was able to do it, because it kept him talking and it helped the FBI to be able to get this investigation going.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa, it seemed like this was the first time you heard these tapes. You really reacted physically to it.
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I had heard different pieces, and I have heard it, but every time it is just as shocking.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: You cannot ever think that, that is normal. You just never expect it. No matter how many times you hear it, you cannot believe that -
- one, that, yes, she was able to play along for so long. I am a mother. At that point, I drop the phone. I rip off the mic. I am like, wrap it
up. I cannot do it anymore. I got to go kill this man, because he is gone way too far.
PINSKY: See. I think that is what would have happened with my wife. I think she would have gone to go after him.
BARNETT: Oh, yes! With my bare hands.
PINSKY: As soon as he mentioned her kids, she would have been, "OK, game on." I mean, we had a stalker once and he started threatening our kids.
And, she brought the police in to read the stalking info. This guy is threatening our kids and she goes, "You need to get him because if you do
not, I am going to kill him."
BARNETT: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: She goes, "I am not afraid to die. I will get him" Before, I thought that was -- I knew I loved my wife. But, Lisa, do you agree with
Loni?
(LAUGHING)
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND LEGAL ANALYST: Look, this is what undercover detectives do every day. And, we just do not see it and we do
not hear the recordings.
PINSKY: I guess the point, though --
BLOOM: People have to really put themselves out there.
PINSKY: But the point is, these guys are amongst us.
BLOOM: They are very much -- listen, I am up against people like this all the time. I do a lot of child sexual abuse cases. It is absolutely
revolting. And, you know, in the clip that you just played, his voice is catching.
PINSKY: He is into it.
BLOOM: He has a funny tone --
PINSKY: He is into it.
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO CO-HOST: He is masturbating.
BLOOM: -- as if there is some kind of solo act happening --
PINSKY: I think he is, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Oh, he is.
BLOOM: -- while he is talking about it. He is imagining it and playing it out.
CATHERWOOD: You,guys, are all scientists and experts in different things. I am an expert in masturbating, trust me. That man is having his way with
himself.
PINSKY: It is horrible. And, well, again, to be fair, that is what the setup is. She is doing sort of weird phone sex with him.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: And including fantasies about children, but getting explicit about intent. Is there any defense, Lisa? Is there any way here --
BLOOM: You know, I mean, I am thinking about entrapment, but I mean I am just coming up with something creative. I do not see it. Look, he chose
to engage in these conversations with her. I just do not see it. You cannot really entrap somebody into molesting a child or getting interested
in child porn. So, I do not see any defenses for him.
[21:05:05] PINSKY: She asked him about the most memorable experience with a child. Again, warning, the tapes are graphic. But, here is some more
from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN-WALDRON: Tell me about the best time that you have ever had when you have done that. You know, with -- whether it is a little girl or a
little boy. I want you to explain to me. Can you tell me?
FOGLE: Uh-huh.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Tell me.
FOGLE: It just felt so good. I mean, it felt -- It felt so good.
HERMAN-WALDRON: How old? OK.
FOGLE: Like 11, 12, something like that.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh. OK.
FOGLE: Little tiny -- little tiny (EXPLETIVE WORD), you know.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: And, just -- I just started (EXPLETIVE WORD). I just (EXPLETIVE WORD) out of her. I mean, just absolutely -- you know, it was -- it was
wonderful.
HERMAN-WALDRON: I mean that happens all the time.
FOGLE: I made him (EXPLETIVE WORD). I mean, I had his little boy (EXPLETIVE WORD). It was amazing.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Really? And, what -- what makes it different from anyone else?
FOGLE: All watching their little (EXPLETIVE WORD), it was just amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, he obviously has pled guilty. He is trying -- he is making restitution, which you can never do to these children. Let us face it.
But, Jena, any normal person listening that tape, you go into sort of a denial like a disbelief, like how could there be -- How can this be?
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
PINSKY: What is the mechanism? How is it possible?
KRAVITZ: As a clinician, I understand pedophilia as a disease. As a mother, I am with Vanessa. I am horrified. Anyone who got near my own, I
would go after them too. But, you know, as we were talking earlier, there is definitely a biological basis --
PINSKY: Yes. I brought the brain out. So, you are really talking about the drive systems way down in the very center part of the brain.
KRAVITZ: Right.
PINSKY: Now, this part of the brain out here is the part, where you can control your impulses. That is obviously impaired. Though they sometimes
feel guilt, which is sort of over here.
KRAVITZ: Right. But, one of the things that is so alarming about him is you hear on the tape that he is even fantasizing about children. Most
adults when they think about children or see children, their maternal or paternal instincts are kind of activated. But him, when he is looking or
thinking about children, what is activated is that area of the brain --
PINSKY: Right.
KRAVITZ : -- that is mediating these impulses and these urges. And, that has a biological basis to it. Not to excuse it, just to sort of --
PINSKY: Explain it.
KRAVITZ: Explain it a little bit.
PINSKY: And, you and I have talked also. There are really no treatments. There are treatment centers for sexual compulsions and distorted
motivations and things. But, that is some sort of people who contemplate these things. And, also, it is not their sexual orientation.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: A pedophile, their sexual orientation is child. When the words come out of my mouth, I just look at the incredulity on your face is, "How
is that possible?", is exactly how I feel, how is it impossible?
BARNETT: But, I have heard that there is a small group of people that are getting together and trying to make these, just like homosexuality and that
fight for that to be of cause. I have heard that there is a man love boys organization trying to get a civil rights --
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: Lisa is not going to represent them.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Good luck with that.
BARNETT: - for that organization.
BLOOM: This is preying on people.
BARNETT: Yes.
BLOOM: I mean to state the obvious. I know you are not advocating, you are just saying.
BARNETT: No. I am just saying. I was shocked that this is --
BLOOM: But, this is preying on innocent children.
BARNETT: Yes.
BLOOM: -- causes lifelong damage to children.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: I mean you can talk to an 80-year-old woman, who was molested 70 years ago, and she will tell you, she never gets past it. You never get
past being molested as a child. You could move on. You can have a good life, but you never forget it. I think it always has an effect.
PINSKY: What it does, it effectively walls off a part of the self. Part of the brain sort of -- the trauma is so shattering, it is overwhelming,
that literally exceeds the brain is regulatory capacity, and in an attempt to do that, it shuts off. And, in its shut-off, the dissociative
mechanism, that piece that is traumatized is put in the back somewhere.
But, it creates motivations that are distorted, feelings that are problematic, and can never be regulated because it never integrates with
the rest of the brain. It stays sort of walled off back somewhere. To say it is a memory is sort of inaccurate because it is literally in their
bodies.
Their bodies remember it. And, it is like they are experiencing it the rest of their life. It is horrible. It is the gift -- When I say it is
the gift that keep on giving, that is the words almost sound kind, it is an experience that shatters. It shatters people.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Conversation keeps going.
Later on, more school violence. This time, a student bullies and threatening a substitute teacher. The teacher is on the receiving end.
What is going on in our schools? We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:09:23] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:13:25] JARED FOGLE, FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR SUBWAY RESTAURANTS: Hi, I am Jared the Subway guy.
JOSH MINKLER, U.S. ATTORNEY: Fogle admitted that he repeatedly travelled from New York -- from Indiana to New York to engage in commercial sex acts
with victims he knew to be children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Federal and State Law Enforcement agents raided Fogle`s home in Indiana. They carted off computers and
other electronics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Explicit images of children as young as 6 were uncovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Knowing and distributing and viewing these child pornography videos at the head of his foundation secretly
taped of minors, as they were getting in and out of the showers. They had no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Fogle engaged in sex with a prostitute, age 17, paid for it and later asked her to introduce him to more girls. Fogle
told her, he would accept a 16-year-old. The younger the girl, the better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Secret recordings of Jared Fogle detailing his sexual attraction to children. A former journalist says she played into Jared`s fantasies,
hoping he would reveal how he had targeted children as young as 10 years of age. And, again, the contents of the tapes are graphic and disturbing. A
little more here from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN-WALDRON: What age seems to be the easiest?
FOGLE: You know, I do not know. Like, you know, early middle school is probably one of the best.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: You know, they do not know if they are coming or going.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: I mean I could see you (EXPLETIVE WORD) out a young, you know, a sixth or seventh grader. You know, just (EXPLETIVE WORD).
HERMAN-WALDRON: And, they are -- they are -- they would be all right with that?
FOGLE: What is that?
HERMAN-WALDRON: I need to find out how -- if they would be all right with that?
[21:15:02] FOGLE: Ah. No, they definitely are all right with that. They are very much into exploring and you know, just the matter of getting them
on your side, you know?
HERMAN-WALDRON: And, that is what I am concern -- that is what I am just curious. I do not know how to -- how to do that. Just be friendly to
them?
FOGLE: Yes. Just be friendly to them. Just -- Just do what you normally would do, baby. Because that is what -- You are so friendly anyway.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: You know. I mean just sort of go from there. We take a -- and I think it is all case-by-case. You know, there is no -- there is no right
way, wrong way, whatever, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, there is a lot to say about this tape. A. He is married while he is carrying on the phone sex with this woman. No matter what else
is going on, there is that. Number two, we wonder why even look at these tapes. But, there is an opportunity here to look at how these people`s
minds work.
I am back with Loni, Vanessa, Mike, Lisa, and Jena. And, Jena, here you see him distorting the children, believing that somehow they are
instigating or they are motivating --
KRAVITZ: And, they are into it.
PINSKY: They are into it.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Which is one of the more disgusting pieces. Now, to be fair, somebody who has been sexually abused may identify with the victim in weird
ways.
KRAVITZ: Right.
PINSKY: It is a distortion. But, it is also -- it is a -- I do not know words to describe it. It is --
KRAVITZ: Well, it is a reaction. I am assuming he must have had some history of trauma, though I do not know.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: That is sort of speculation. But, it is sort of this way of justifying that it is OK. They want it. They want me.
PINSKY: It is an identification.
KRAVITZ: It is OK. Yes. This sort of projective identification that we talked about.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: Assuming some characteristics of the victim, really, really complex stuff.
PINSKY: So, it is a severe -- severe distortion. Lisa.
BLOOM: You know, Drew, children are taught that they have to say yes to adults. That they have to be nice to adults, right? Adults have all the
power.
PINSKY: Yes. But, I do not know about you --
BLOOM: Children have no power.
PINSKY: -- but we teach our kids about, you know their private parts are theirs and --
BLOOM: Well, we do, but we do not do it enough, honestly. I mean kids should scream and yell fire and run away if somebody is molesting them.
PINSKY: Look, Lisa. I do not know if we have the particular footage in this tape we played it last week where he talks about who he targets. And,
he goes, "Kids from broken homes."
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Kids who have certain look in their eyes.
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Kids who are needy. Kids who are the ones who are the most -- already victimized.
KRAVITZ: Right.
BLOOM: For all the people who make fun of, "Oh, teaching kids about safe touch", and we do not do enough of it, because it is so easy for an adult
to prey on a child. And, that is what he is demonstrating. All you got to do is be a little friendly and they will go along with it. He convinces
himself that they wanted it. And, he convinces children probably that they wanted it too.
KRAVITZ: He is also using his celebrity.
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: Exactly.
KRAVITZ: Another level of this sickness is that --
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: -- he does have this playbook for how to get the children involved. But, he is also leveraging the fact that he has a celebrity
status, which is even worse.
BARNETT: Yes. And, his celebrity threw me off, and I know better. We know these celebrities are flawed. That is not a big surprise. But, when
the story first broke and they were actually looking into his associate, I almost defended him. I am like, "Oh, no, he is caught up. That was a work
computer. His associate was on. I am sure some of these will be over."
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. It was unbelievable.
BARNETT: I could not believe it. And, even hearing the tapes over and over again, I am like --
PINSKY: You cannot process it.
BARNETT: -- "I cannot believe he has pulled the wool over everyone`s eyes."
CATHERWOOD: There is something else to be said about making celebrities -- I do not want to say celebrities, but glorifying and celebrating people who
should not be.
BARNETT: Right.
CATHERWOOD: I mean he used to be back in the days, you could be infamous or famous.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Now, you can just exist. I mean the guy lost a lot of weight. Good for you, so to my aunt. You know, no one is giving her any money. I
mean, he was pumped into everyone`s home for years and years and years. And, now, it is just people kind of exist in our consciousness.
PINSKY: Right. And, interesting point, Loni, which is so one of these -- some of these videos came from his camps that were sponsored by Subway.
COOMBS: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: And, these are kids undressing and being exploited in the camp.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: So, does not Subway have some liability here?
COOMBS: Well, there is some question about that. I mean there could be -- criminal liability is very hard because they have to do something to
encourage or assist it. There is also civil liability, "Did they know?" And, that is the big question. Did they know and not do anything about it?
But, I tell you --
PINSKY: Although, this woman says she complained in 2011 -
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: They did not listen, right?
COOMBS: That is right.
BLOOM: Good enough for me.
COOMBS: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Gives them some knowledge.
COOMBS: Subway has come out and denied them. So, they did not get the memo or whatever, but I am sure that is being followed up on. But, this
celebrity thing is something that we have to go further. When we talk to our children, when we talk about stranger danger -- It is always stranger -
- And those celebrities that you admire and that you put up on a pedestal - -
PINSKY: Those are still strangers.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
COOMBS: Exactly. But, we put them on a pedestal like they are OK. And, he was purposely saying that this charity with children, he said, "I can be
friendly to them. I can touch them. I can be touchy feeley with them." He was doing that on purpose. And, the kids of course are like saying,
"Hey, here is a big celebrity, of course, I am going to hug him."
BLOOM: But, it is not just stranger danger. I mean I think we got to talk about parts of the body that you get to control and you get to decide,
because most molestation happens by a member of your own family.
COOMBS: Yes.
BLOOM: So, really the stranger danger is very low.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: Uncle danger, stepfather danger, that is pretty high.
PINSKY: Neighbor. Neighbor.
KRAVITZ: Yes, neighborhood.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, the 12 years the maximum sentence he is facing. He will be out when he is 50. These impulses will still be with him.
[21:20:00] BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: What do we do with these people?
CATHERWOOD: He is 38?
PINSKY: I think that is right.
BARNETT: That is a hard 38.
PINSKY: Yes, he is 38.
BARNETT: That is a rough 38.
CATHERWOOD: Pedophilia is not good for the skin.
PINSKY: Well, there is a place called McNeil Island outside of Seattle, an Island where they send people that are likely to be re-offenders. I think
the court sort of send them on --
BLOOM: Yes. But, once he is done his time, how are you going to -- he should be in for life.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
BLOOM: It should be a life sentence. If we value children at all, which obviously we do not, if we are going to give him this little slap on the
wrist for what he is done.
COOMBS: And believe me, the sentence, the plea bargain, is between five and 12. It will be up to the judge if he gives the 12. He could get as
little as five.
BLOOM: And be out at 43 years old.
COOMBS: So, I am actually glad that those tapes came out.
BLOOM: Yes.
COOMBS: Because now that everybody has heard these tapes, I bet that judge is going to give him every day that he can.
BARNETT: Is there any way to give him more? Like is there is something that can -- seriously, 12 years is not enough. That is not enough for one
child.
PINSKY: What about this island, the therapeutic island?
CATHERWOOD: Unless he goes to that island, there is still certain honor amongst thieves.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: Yes. I was going to say it.
CATHERWOOD: And, I think that if he gets anywhere between five and 12 years, he is still going to get a death sentence, because he will always
have to look over his shoulder.
BARNETT: But, is they are going to put him in a fancy private places where it is kind of, "Ooh, celebrity jail."
PINSKY: No. No.
BARNETT: Like, "You cannot touch him, he is special."
PINSKY: No. He is going to special because if he goes into the general pop, they will kill him --
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: For sure. But, they still may get -- they tried already in this sort of special unit. But it is prison, make no mistake about it.
COOMBS: Yes, and child molesters are on the bottom rung.
BARNETT: Low.
CATHERWOOD: How on Earth can 12 be the maximum, when there is people serving life sentences for drug charges? I mean how --
COOMBS: It is not the maximum. It is what the prosecutor --
PINSKY: Guilty.
COOMBS: -- and the defense attorney agreed to.
PINSKY: He pled guilty.
COOMBS: He was actually looking at 50 years.
PINSKY: It was a plea bargain, right?
COOMBS: Yes. Yes.
BARNETT: Just for saying, "I am guilty", is not even a year per kid. Was not it more than 12 kids? So, this is not even a year per kid.
COOMBS: Right. It is interesting too, because he is able to pay restitution. He has also pay restitution. His friend, remember Russell
Taylor, the one who is actually making the videos?
BARNETT: Right.
COOMBS: He pled guilty. He is looking at a maximum of 35 years. So, he is going to get punished even more.
PINSKY: He could not hire the right attorney. That is all. You, guys, have a great system. Thanks, Lisa and Loni.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Yes. Believe me, I would lock him up for life.
COOMBS: Yes.
BLOOM: Goodbye.
PINSKY: Listen, I wish they would look at these things the same as if someone were hit over the head with a hammer. You are causing lifelong
brain damage. Now, it does not manifest cognitively. It does not manifest in terms of ability to function in the world. It manifests in terms of
ability to function emotionally and interpersonally.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: It causes lifelong distress. It is a sentence you would not wish on anyone. I am not saying that every sexual abuse results in severe
chronic PTSD. Most of them do. And, repeated episodes pretty much always does.
Next up, classroom aggression. This time, it is a student lashing out at a teacher. Oh, yes! The lunatics are in charge of asylum it seems this
time. And, the camera, I am not sure is helping things. We will talk about it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:50] PINSKY: A student at a Chicago Vocational High School caught on camera bullying and threatening, this time, a teacher. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: No. (EXPLETIVE WORDS)
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: No, wait. Wait. No!
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Now, ask me what my name is again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TEACHER: Whatever you are throwing, you need to throw it away. I need you to throw it away. OK, young lady, I am going to have
to ask you to have a seat. I am going to have to ask you to have a seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: You are on camera. I am fixing to smack a (EXPLETIVE WORDS) the whole bag of M&Ms.
(LAUGHING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Loni, Vanessa, Mike and Lisa. And, joining us Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD retired, author of "The Creation of the Manifesto:
Black & Blue." Now, the video is from 2011, but it posted a few days ago and has since gone completely viral.
So, we thought at best we take a good look at this. The teacher was a substitute. Now, we have been covering classroom violence recently, which
is what drew our attention to this particular video.
Mike, does the resource officer`s aggression the other day, when the guy that pulled that young lady out of the chair, does that behavior at least
make more sense when we see maybe perhaps what he might have been up against in the classroom?
CATHERWOOD: It certainly, you know, is a good argument for the need for police presence on campus. I mean, I do think that with the internet being
what it is and everyone having a high definition phone in their pocket, including students nowadays, there is this desire to act out, almost beyond
what you would want to do, so that you can get the recognition on world star Hip-Hop or --
PINSKY: Wow.
CATHERWOOD: -- you know, Facebook or whatever it is. Because, look at it -- like this is probably the most attention this student ever gotten in his
life. And, it is for what? It is for an egregiously, reprehensible behavior.
PINSKY: Sergeant Dorsey, I find the teacher`s behavior remarkably composed. No? Lisa, you say no?
BLOOM: I am saying little too composed.
PINSKY: Well, let me hear from the police force.
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD (RET): Well, I think she should have commanded authority of that room, right?
BLOOM: Yes.
SERGEANT DORSEY: You have to set the stage in and the tone. And, obviously, she did not do that from the very beginning, because these
people do not --
PINSKY: Is that what we are telling our teachers? They have to be police officers?
SERGEANT DORSEY: No. No.
PINSKY: I mean she is trying to run her classroom.
SERGEANT DORSEY: You just have to have demeanor. You have to have command presence. You have to -- if you are not a bully, well, you have to at
least get in your bluff, right? Make them think that you will do bad things to them if they do not behave, even though you may not.
And, so for her to be so passive, I think was really more encouraging for this young man, because all that, "Hold me back, let me at her," if he
really wanted to get away and throw a chair, he could have. It was for show and it was to entertain the class. And, I think it is because she did
nothing that encouraged him to act the way that he did.
COOMBS: I think if she had done something, he would have reacted more. I mean I give her credit. She is a substitute teacher. And, we all
remember substitute teachers, everybody kind of takes advantage of them a little bit, because they do not know the students. They do not know what
is going to go on. They do not know the personality of the class.
[21:30:00] And, this woman, she just remained calm. She is trying to keep the situation defuse as much as possible. She did not know how to get
help. She has asked somebody, is there a security person? But, I thought she did a great job. Yes, she is a little abnormally, perhaps to the point
where I wonder if she is a little bit traumatized from past experiences. I am not sure.
BARNETT: Or just in shock.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. That is right.
BARNETT: She is probably scared out of her mind. I have been a substitute teacher. And, luckily for me, I have to just worry about being hit on and
not actually being hit.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: But -- humble brag. No, but I am just saying like, you know, when I was in these classrooms, I looked like one of the kids. I was fresh
out of college and teaching these kids. And, there are situations that arise where you really do not know what to do, because you are coming in
for the day --
COOMBS: Right.
BARNETT: -- and you are supposed to be playing a DVD or something. You do not know how to handle these situations. But, my issue is, just like it
was with the young lady, who was slammed by the police officer, when do we realize that these kids are hurting? Like what do we do -- when do we talk
to these kids to figure out what is wrong?
PINSKY: Well, what do you do with that?
BARNETT: OK. Not that substitute teacher, but that was not the first time this kid acted out.
PINSKY: Right.
BARNETT: That was not the first time he is showing out and going completely ignorant in class. But, like the young lady that was sitting at
her desk, no one knew what she was going through at home. And, so, we can get to these kids at an earlier stage and figure out what else is going on.
Maybe we can avoid situations like this where kids do not know how to handle whatever it is happening in their minds.
SERGEANT DORSEY: And, what was the consequence for that activity? That is what we do not know.
BLOOM: Yes.
SERGEANT DORSEY: That is what we do not know. Because, I think if she --
PINSKY: We do not know.
SERGEANT DORSEY: If the mindset was to allow him to do this and he will never do this again, because at the end of the day there will be a serious
consequence, then I am OK with that. But, just to let him bully you like that, then what do you do tomorrow? What do you do next week when you come
back?
BLOOM: It is the teacher`s job to control the classroom. The teacher is the adult in the classroom. No, and you cannot just sit there. So, my
mother was a substitute teacher in Watts in the 1960s during the riots. All 5`2" and 95 pounds of her. And, nobody gave her any trouble.
I mean, every teacher knows the first thing you have to learn how to do is control your classroom, whether you are a substitute or not. I am not
blaming her. I am sorry if she was hurt emotionally or physically in this incident.
But, teenagers are going to rough it up. They are going to push the boundaries. I have raised two kids. I got a 16-year-old at home right
now. You have got to take control when you are the adult.
PINSKY: Vanessa, what are you suggesting? What do you think we are going to find there?
BARNETT: I do not know, but I fell like a lot of times we feel --
PINSKY: Because people do a lot of that work, a lot of that work.
BARNETT: But not in those inner city classrooms.
PINSKY: Yes. Sure.
BARNETT: I have been in those schools. I went to inner city school, where there was all kinds of things happening on the premises. We were walking
through metal detectors. We had security officers on site. And, so, I know what it is when you have a classroom full of rowdy kids. But, I also
know that some of the kids come from broken homes.
PINSKY: OK, from broken home.
BARNETT: Some of these kids do not eat. They do not have --
PINSKY: Malnutrition. I agree with you.
BARNETT: They do not have --
PINSKY: Horrible environment.
BARNETT: Horrible environment.
PINSKY: The violence they are growing up in, right?
BARNETT: And, a lot of these kids maybe have mental health issues, maybe there is ADD. Maybe ADHD, maybe there is --
PINSKY: Yes. OK. So, now, what are you going to do?
BARNETT: There are various of things, but all we see --
PINSKY: There you go. You listed four really important things --
BARNETT: -- are bad kids, and we want to arrest them now?
PINSKY: No. No. I see --
BARNETT: You want to put officers it the class.
PINSKY: I see mental health stuff. I do.
BARNETT: Exactly. but who is talking to these kids? Who is pulling them into the counseling office instead of the detention hall? Who say, "OK,
you are acting out and you will be punished?"
But let us also talk about what is happening at home. What is happening in your heart and your mind? No one cares. They just want to push them on
through the system and they may end up in jail somewhere.
PINSKY: I totally agree with you. Do you think that kid want to sit in a therapist`s office?
BARNETT: Kids do not want to do a lot of things. He did not want to be at school, either.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, so, that is where it takes these adults to say, "No, you are going to sit here. You are going to tell me what is happening." Because
maybe not the first, second or third time, but someone needs to tap in and help him before he hurts himself or someone else.
BLOOM: And, I think they do want somebody talk to. You know, I interviewed a lot of inner city boys for my book`s wager, which is about
raising boys. And, I am walking into schools, who am I, a total stranger. And, I would sit and talk to them for hours.
They were delighted to have somebody take an interest in their lives, to find out what was going on, to give them suggestions about things they
could do. I think a lot of boys in particular are crying out for an adult to take an interest in them.
PINSKY: Listen. I will tell what. One -- one positive relationship sustained with an adult after age 8 and forward, can change the direction
of a life. One positive relationship. If each of us could maintain a positive relationship with a kid in need, particularly those of us that are
men, who kids without fathers -- Mike, you have something to say?
CATHERWOOD: Well, I also -- I think that what Lisa was talking about, the need to have an interaction with adults, it goes to show that nowadays,
even in the best of circumstances, with the most caring parents, we spend so little time with our children, because we make less money working more
hours.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: In proportion to, you know, what it is to cost of living, we all work way more than we used to, and now someone who has a good job
cannot support a family. So, most families have two -- you know, two incomes.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, it is just the way this world is working. I think we are dealing with a different set of children. You know, like Lisa was talking
about her mother working in Watts in the` 60s. I think even in the neighborhood like Watts, it is a whole different group of children now.
[21:35:00] PINSKY: I totally agree.
CATHERWOOD: Their idealism --
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: -- and everything is skewed to a way that makes it much harder to deal with.
PINSKY: I think we are hungry as a country for answers along these lines, exactly what that is going to look like in the future. I just do not know
because it is expensive, so, unless, we all take it on ourselves.
We got now -- next up, students rallying behind the classroom cop. The resource officer who had been fired, that gentleman there, for throwing a
student across the room. You will hear about that after this
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This single violent jolt ended the career of School Resource Officer Ben Fields.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF LEON LOTT, RICHLAND COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: The School Resource Officer Ben Fields was terminated from the Richland county
sheriff`s Department.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: He was a great guy, like he protected us and everything. Like he was our resource officer. We always could depend on
him and everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You could see the deputy tossing a female student to the ground after she refused to get up from her
desk. Then throwing her across the classroom floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:07] SHERIFF LOTT: She was very disruptive. She was very disrespectful and she started this whole incident with her actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: On Friday, about 100 students at that very high school walked out of class to protest the officer`s firing. Back with Loni, Vanessa, Mike,
Lisa and Cheryl. Cheryl, do you, first of all with the sheriff`s firing of that officer?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Well, I absolutely agree with the firing. I think it was necessary. I also understand why some students would support that officer
because if that is not your experience, if you do not know him that way, if you cannot relate because he is a good guy, officer so-and-so, he talks to
me. He answers my questions. He protects me, but let him put his hands on you and toss you across the room and then I think you would feel a lot
different.
PINSKY: Let me -- I am going to ask a question. I am being argumentative. But, it just -- I think it begs being asked. Which is, let us say he was a
great resource officer, and he impacted positively the lives of lots of students. He made a terrible error in judgment there and acted out in a
way that is not excusable.
Do you just cast him out at that point? Or is there a way to rehab people that make bad moves? You know, if some like us physician made a bad move,
you would call him out. You would reeducate them. You would not let them do that procedure for a long time.
BLOOM: Drew, this is an assault. This is the equivalent of a physician assaulting somebody on the operating table. This is not just an error of
judgment. This is not like something came out of his mouth that he regrets.
He could have caused permanent spinal injury to a young lady, 16 years old, who is sitting still and not threatening anyone. I mean that is completely
unacceptable. And, it is not just one jolt. He throws her down. And, then when she is already down, he tosses her across the room. There he
goes. There is the toss.
BARNETT: Yes. And, there has been no remorse. He said it is an unfortunate situation that happened, but he has not apologized. He does
not feel like he was in the wrong, and they call him officer slam.
PINSKY: Well, but to be fair -- they did?
BARNETT: Yes.
BLOOM: Yes.
BARNETT: That is his nickname at the school.
SERGEANT DORSEY: He has a reputation.
BARNETT: Officer Slam.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
BARNETT: So, this is not his first incident. He has been body slamming folks all over the place.
PINSKY: So, all right, so my question begs the facts, right? The facts are quite different than what I am saying then.
SERGEANT DORSEY: And, when we see something like this outrageous and egregious, it is not ever the first time. You do not start by slinging
someone across the room. You start by grabbing them and jerking them when you do not really have a reason to. And, then before you know it, you get
away with it, and you escalate until you have a situation now where you could almost really hurt someone.
PINSKY: You have taught me, it is officers punishing people that make them mad.
SERGEANT DORSEY: I believe that, that is what happened here. I believe that this officer felt some kind of way when he told her to get up and she
did not. And, when we listened to what was going on in the background, she was not talking on the phone.
You know, the chiefs tried to minimize and mitigate that bad behavior that this officer was involved in, because he understands there is a lawsuit,
right? And, so, to say that she started it, well, that is how police get involved. People start stuff and then we get involved.
PINSKY: And, do we --
CATHERWOOD: I have a question.
PINSKY: Really quick, though, and that is probably why he does not apologize because there is a lawsuit.
COOMBS: Absolutely. And, it is interesting too, when you talk about the facts, he came in when he was called in. He told the students around her
to move back. He moved the computers. It was almost like this is a process, he has done before.
And, everybody comes, "Oh, he is coming in to take her out." And, that is -- and, he flips the chair. He knows how to do that and then flings her
across the room. So, I do not think it was just a spur of the moment thing. I think he has done it a number of times.
CATHERWOOD: I have a question for Cheryl with someone who has such extensive history in law enforcement. I just cannot assume that they would
station like a really good cop or a sheriff at the high school. Is that something where they would place someone who is not necessarily cut out to
be --
SERGEANT DORSEY: Well, you would absolutely hope that they put someone in a school that has the demeanor and temperament to deal with children and
incorrigibles at that. And, so, to know that this is not the first time that he did this begs -- the question that begs to be asked is how is he
allowed to stay?
If he has had a history and a propensity for this kind of violence when it is passive aggressiveness on the part of a student, how was he then allowed
to stay? How do you excuse that behavior? You condone it, and you give the inference that it is OK.
PINSKY: I think Lisa is falling in love with you.
BLOOM: You just read my mind. You just read my mind. I am in love -- You have said so many insightful things on this show today. And, it is really
--
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: Kiss each other.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: You know, what we have seen is -- we have seen the two extremes, right?
PINSKY: I saw it. Cheryl, I saw it.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: He did see it. We are going to go afterwards. We will report back tomorrow. No. But the previous segment, right? We have the teacher who
is just sitting there doing nothing. And, then here we have the other extreme of the police officer, who obviously got mad, decided to use his
brute physical force on this young lady, who is just sitting there. That is the other extreme.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: Is it too much to ask to have people in a classroom, actually just use verbal commands to control a classroom?
PINSKY: And, now, that I have learned from Cheryl that these officers tend to move from -- they get the gift of -- what do you call it? Gift of --
SERGEANT DORSEY: I call it the gift of resignation.
PINSKY: Yes.
SERGEANT DORSEY: Because I promise you, he will be on another police department before the end of the year.
COOMBS: Well, I will tell you this, there is a fundraising website that has been set up for him. They have already raised $6,000. And, there is
really interesting, lots of comments from the donors.
One of them said, "Officer Fields, while I feel that what you did overreached a little with the way you handled the young lady, I can totally
understand why you overreached. I blame her, her parents, friends in the school for what happened, and I feel you did not deserve to be terminated.
I feel that the sheriff was reacting to public pressure instead of doing a thorough investigation of the facts."
[21:45:11] BARNETT: It is sad that this girl does not -- is not with her mother. You want to blame the mother, the mother is not there, and she is
now in an orphanage situation --
PINSKY: This is back to what you were talking about.
BARNETT: Exactly.
PINSKY: I am deeply sympathetic to this.
BARNETT: And if that cop would have said, "What is going on?" Why did not you put your foot forward.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Maybe she was calling someone for help. Maybe she needed to reach out for somebody. Maybe something is going on.
PINSKY: You know what, though, Vanessa, when you came to our show the first time, I do not think you ever would have said something like that.
You have changed over the arc of experience.
BARNETT: Why? Because I realize there is so much more than just the surface.
PINSKY: Of course.
BARNETT: People are hurting.
PINSKY: Of course.
BARNETT: And, it make me -- I could cry. People are hurting, and they are saying so much without saying anything at all. That girl did not say a
word.
CATHERWOOD: It is a child.
PINSKY: It is a child. And, there are effective interventions out there. Thank you, Vanessa, for changing your mind. That is good, and for being an
advocate for something of health. That is all we want, is health, everybody.
All right. Next up, Rachel Dolezal finally admits, shocking, she was born white. Shocking. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:19] PINSKY: It is time for "Click Fix", where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook and/or Instagram feeds, and it
is Loni first.
COOMBS: OK. This is a great one. Remember Rachel Dolezal. Everybody, remembers her, right?
PINSKY: Who could forget it?
CATHERWOOD: I love her.
COOMBS: She resigned from being the president of one of a local NAACP chapter, when it was revealed she was actually born white even though she
had passed herself off as being black for decades. Well, earlier today, she appeared on the talk show called, "The Real," which is a talk show
hosted by women of color. And, the hosts refused to back down.
PINSKY: My friend, Loni love at the wheel here.
COOMBS: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: At the helm.
COOMBS: Right. And, Rachel has been skirting these issues about her biological race with everyone else, but these ladies did not let go.
PINSKY: Let us see it. Let us see it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADRIENNE BAILON, CO-HOST OF THE DAYTIME TALK SHOW "THE REAL": Even now sitting here asking you, we are saying why not say you are white but you
identify as being black and you do not seem to answer the question straight on.
RACHEL DOLEZAL, WHITE WOMAN WHO PASSED AS BLACK: We are all entitled to be --
BAILON: Correct.
DOLEZAL: -- exactly who we are and to identify as such.
JEANNIE MAI, CO-HOST OF DAYTIME TALK SHOW "THE REAL": Rachel -- Rachel, you were not born black. So when you say you are black, it makes it hard
for people to understand where you are coming from.
DOLEZAL: Right. And, that is why I say that I acknowledge I was biologically born white to white parents --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MAI: That is all we wanted. But identify as black.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: It is strange that we live in a time when people get applause for saying, "Oh, yeah, here is what my parents were." --
COOMBS: Admitting truth.
PINSKY: What?
COOMBS: Yes, admitting the truth that we have known all along. And, she went on to say she does not feel she is deceived anyone, and that she has,
quote, "Walked the walk of a black woman."
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: Girl, bye. Walked the walk? Just because her hair is kinky and she got a spray tan -- I am sorry.
PINSKY: Loni Love, well done.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: Walk the walk.
PINSKY: Vanessa, you are up next.
BARNETT: Well, my story is about a real black woman. Her name is Nicki Minaj. You may have heard of her. Now, she is a little -- she is known
for sometimes sparring on Twitter a little bit, and today she is at it again.
CATHERWOOD: Bubble bath.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: Stop! So, this time she posted a video on Halloween, and initiated thousands of comments. Angry people were commenting, because
they think she mocked a woman in a wheelchair. Take a look at this video and tell me what you think.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICKI MINAJ, TRINIDADIAN-BORN AMERICAN RAPPER: Now, if only I could find Handyman.
(LAUGHING)
MINAJ: Walk!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What are they saying?
BARNETT: So, you hear at the very beginning, she says, "If only I could find Handyman." Handyman is a superhero from "In Living Color." Remember
that show?
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: He was a super hero that had cerebral palsy.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, so, she is making a reference to that. And, so, there was - - I guess there was some anger because Perez Hilton tweeted, "Nicki Minaj used the wand from her Halloween costume to command a disabled person to
walk."
So, in the video you see a person in one of those little scooters. Nicki tweeted back, "It was not a disabled person" and accused Perez of being
desperate for attention.
And, then she clarified and said that the person was not in a wheelchair. It was a scooter, and the woman is a friend of hers, actually, and she is
not handicapped at all. She was not mocking her with her wand.
PINSKY: You say, the video and the woman would have gotten up and walked because she knew she was not disabled, it would have been a little clearer.
BARNETT: Yes. That video is so short, though.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: But, she deleted it anyway. So --
CATHERWOOD: We know for a fact Perez Hilton is gay, because all straight men could not get pass what she was wearing.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. Go ahead, Mike. What else you got?
CATHERWOOD: As if the sugar high was not bad enough for kids on Halloween, a Canadian pharmacy up there with their great free health care --
PINSKY: I heard about it. Yes. Yes.
CATHERWOOD: -- gave trick or treaters Bipolar meds instead of candies.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: According to Quebec City Police, a customer dropped a bipolar meds at the Drug store. The pills where each individually wrapped in a
plastic bag. Another customer found them and placed them on a service center counter near a Halloween candy basket.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
CATHERWOOD: The police assured parents that the pills were not dangerous, despite side effects that include tremors, nausea, and suicidal thoughts.
COOMBS: Right.
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: Why did they give them?
CATHERWOOD: I do not know.
COOMBS: Are they really individually wrapped like that?
PINSKY: Usually, but they do not look like candy.
All right, we got to get out of here. Next up, an Uber smack down in which the driver has the last word with pepper spray and a video. Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:54:37] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: An Uber driver was assaulted by an intoxicated passenger. Here it is on dash cam. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOI CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: Am I getting on the 55?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: No. You are going to -- why -- why would you go this far?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: Dude, you got to give me directions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: Why do I have to give you directions?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: Because -- because --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: I put the address in the phone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: No, you did not. You refused to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: You better turn your ass around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: No. I am kicking you out, man. You are too -- you are too drunk to give me directions, man. Get out of my car or
I will call the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: I got to tell you something, you little (EXPLETIVE WORDS).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: Get the (EXPLETIVE WORD) out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER PASSENGER: (EXPLETIVE WORD) Yeah, I am giving you your (EXPLETIVE WORD).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UBER DRIVER: Yeah, yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good for him. He apparently -- Vanessa was telling me -- who was watching?
BARNETT: Yes. After this, he gets out of the car and is still telling him, like I am calling the police.
PINSKY: He still sprays him, gets him. And, he does call a police, I hope.
BARNETT: Yes. He is spraying him.
PINSKY: All right. According to police, the driver is OK. The passenger was under a citizen`s arrest for assault and public intoxication.
So, he was arrested. A reminder, we are available on Snap Chat. Join us there @DrDrewHLN. DVR us and you can watch us any time. Good job, panel.
Thank you all for watching. We will see you next time.
[22:00:06] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
