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Dr. Drew
University Students Dragged, Tased, And Beaten All Because Of Loud Music; Transgender Child Controversy; A 14-Year-Old Girl Mowed Down By A Hit-And-Run Driver; New Starbucks Minimalist Cup Is A War On Christmas? Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 10, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:00:13] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, university students dragged, tased, and beaten all because of loud music. Now, three Alabama
officers are on leave. Should they lose their jobs over all of this?
Plus, is a 6-year-old too young to identify as transgender? That question created big controversy at a Texas day care. It all starts right now at
the "Top of the Feed."
Three officers responding to a call for loud music are on leave after a video captures their encounter with university students at an off campus
apartment. And, what goes down, you got to see. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: please, please let go of him. You are illegally entering. Sir -- Sir -- Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Sir, what is the point? You cannot just treat him like that. What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why are you acting like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get out. Get out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why are you acting like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Sir, get out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You have no --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Sir, get out. Get out. Get out. Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I am a good person. Why are you acting like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Go downstairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We are shutting the door. We are shutting the door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Ask if he is being arrested or detained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Ask if he is being arrested or detained -- is he being arrested or detained?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: He is under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stand up. Stand up, now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What is he under arrest for? What is he under arrest for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sir, it is on video --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get out, you (EXPLETIVE WORD). Get down. Get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stop. Stop. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, stop!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He did not do anything!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down! Get down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The three students also facing charges for obstructing and resisting. Joining me Sam Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com;
Tanya Acker, a judge on CBS "Hot Bench"; Mike Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC co-host; Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD retired, author of "The
Creation of a Manifesto: Black & Blue. On Skype, I got John Cardillo, WJNO radio host, former NYPD Officer.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Now, although, Sam, you were saying you were getting chills looking at this tape, Tanya, once again, we watch these tapes over and over again, where
any kind of resistance results in, as Cheryl would say, bad things happening.
TANYA ACKER, JUDGE ON CBS "HOT BENCH": Sure. Well, look, I mean there are certain baselines that we grow up with, right? You are supposed to respect
authority. You are supposed to act respectfully when cops come to you. But by the same token, we also have certain expectations.
We have expectations of privacy. I have a reasonable expectation that unless I am doing something that is putting others in jeopardy or myself in
jeopardy that, my private space is sacred. My private space is sacrosanct.
So, we are constantly having the balance this need with the need to sort of defer to and respect authority, with having authority, public figures,
respect our private space. In the United States of America, there is a very high standard before public officials can invade your space. And, I
think we have really got to balance those tensions.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, you know, I learned from you that we seem in many of these videos we watched where bad things happen, and as I have learned from
you, bad things happen when cops put hands on, right, and you resist.
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD (RET): Absolutely.
PINSKY: But, again, it does not seem like there is skillful de-escalation nor is there, as Tanya is saying, respect of the private space.
DORSEY: Well, you know, for me, here is the thing. It seems to me that these officers really did not have a plan when they went there. They kind
of just went in willy-nilly. And, they just figured we are just going to do this, and they will make up a reason to rationalize what we are going to
do down the road.
And, they understand that when they arrest these young people for resisting arrest and interfering that if it is a D.A. reject, it is OK. But guess
what? You just spent the weekend in jail, right? Inconvenience due and it will be a D.A. reject and everything will be fine.
Resisting arrest is what happens when officers use excessive force and they have nothing else to do, but CYA, cover their butts for that force that
should have never been used.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Sam.
SAM SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: Yes. And, also what I like to usually say on previous episodes, Cheryl, as you say that you have
noticed that some officers will punish, right? They will punish the citizens if they feel like that they are resisting arrest.
And, I felt like that happened in this case too. While I do agree that you should comply, in this case, I do not think the police officers had any
right to go ahead and invade this space. They should not have been able to go into this private residence, especially because this was a noise
complaint.
And, what I did not like is that when the guy was finally -- the student was finally on the ground with his hands behind his head, they continued to
tase and beat him with a baton. That is not OK.
[21:05:05] PINSKY: John, what do you say? As usual, I expect something different from you.
JOHN CARDILLO, WJNO RADIO HOST, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: You know, I am 80 percent in disagreement. I am in agreement with Sam at the end where they
should have been hands off. But, look, I seriously wonder what types of jobs Cheryl had on patrol.
DORSEY: (LAUGHING)
CARDILLO: Because any patrol cop knows a barricade situation is very dangerous. And, when this kid went to close the door, those cops did not
know if he was hiding contraband, if he had a hostage inside, if he had weapons.
A barricade situation is deadly. And, it was at that point that they were absolutely justified in entering, removing the occupants for everybody`s
safety, and finding out what was going on.
PINSKY: All right. Well, let me hear from the officer on patrol. Well, I guess you have not experience in LAPD, right?
DORSEY: Well, you see, I understand why John questions my credibility because this is coming from a guy, who did not make it to the finish line.
This is I a former officer. I am a retired honorably sergeant with 20 years on Los Angeles Police Department.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
So, I understand why he has questions. And, listen, John, all 20 years in patrol in South Central Los Angeles. All 20.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Hang on, John. I am going to ask you -- John -- John, when you talk over when somebody is saying, I cannot hear you at all. So, now go.
Go ahead.
CARDILLO: Cheryl, I was never the subject of IEB complaints and by many accounts forced off the job. I retired honorably. I was not multiply
investigated --
DORSEY: Brother -- Listen, brother, I am honorably retired.
CARDILLO: Cheryl.
DORSEY: Do your homework.
CARDILLO: I was not multiply investigated.
DORSEY: If you want to know about me, read my book. I have nothing to explain or to --
CARDILLO: And you were multiply -- Cheryl.
DORSEY: I have nothing to explain to you.
CARDILLO: You do not have one peer --
DORSEY: 20 years, South Central Los Angeles.
CARDILLO: One peer. One peer, Cheryl.
PINSKY: All right, you guys. Guys, hang on --
CARDILLO: You do not one peer who comes to your defense. Not one.
DORSEY: You do not know anybody that I know. And, I got nothing to prove to you, John. Let us talk about the facts.
CARDILLO: Off you go.
DORSEY: Let us talk about the facts that these officers used excessive force.
PINSKY: All right. No more personal attacks. Let us get down to it. Let us get down to the facts here. Go ahead, Mike. Are you having fun?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Pretty good.
(LAUGHING)
MIKE CATHERWOOD, MY "LOVE LINE" AND KABC CO-HOST: That is pretty good. I would just say like, obviously, I do not have any experience in law
enforcement. But --
PINSKY: You have been taken down in barricade situations.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, yes, yes, yes. But, I will --
PINSKY: Well, hold on. So, we do not just pass that up. So, you have closed cops off, I bet, when you had contraband inside.
CATHERWOOD: No. I would never think to do that. But, if I did -- but if a cop came to my door, if someone was called -- if someone called said I
was having a loud party.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, I have an apartment and the cops came to the door, I would think that shoving the door back closed in their face would warrant
them getting really mad.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Now, do I have to get tased and beat up? I do not know. You know, none of this stuff exists in a vacuum. That is what we need to
understand.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: And, you know, whether it be, you know, the cop we are criticizing or the citizen, none of this stuff exists just in the clip that
we are watching. There is always a big back story that none of us are really privy to, you know.
PINSKY: During the arrest, an officer -- we got some more caught on tape. This particular officer cursing at some of the people in the apartment.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What are you doing in this house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Shut your (EXPLETIVE WORD) mouth!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hey, hey. Just calm down. Calm down. Everybody calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: (EXPLETIVE WORD)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I have it all on video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I do not give a (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am going to hear from the audience. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just feel that the officers` feelings was hurt. And like Dr. Drew said, he did not know how to appropriately de-
escalate the situation.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. I think that is right. And, then we get into the sort of punishment thing when there is resistance. Cheryl.
DORSEY: And, you know, what would be helpful, really? If in a situation like this, because I understand that officers have tunnel vision and you
end up with a pack mentality.
We see that at the end of a foot pursuit, where there are six or seven officers and three more are coming up and everybody wants to get in and get
a foot, get a kick, right? So, would not it be helpful if you just had one officer stand back and have that person be that cool head.
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: So, when everybody else is losing it, he can say that is enough. Stop, no more.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. We will keep this going. After this conversation, later on, two daycare workers refuse to acknowledge a child`s transition
from female to male. They were fired. Now, they are suing. We will hear from their attorney and the school, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:09:19] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you have a warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I do not have to have a warrant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Yes, you do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Yes, you do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: You are under a arrest for harassment -- I am going to ask you one more time to get outside now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I was deeply disturbed by and disappointed in the way our officers responded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down. Get down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Stop! Stop, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: (EXPLETIVE WORD)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMMON, CNN ANCHOR: The guy was already getting tased, so, why would you beat him when he is already on the ground?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A violent confrontation between police and three students from the University of Alabama. It is all caught on camera. Three of the officers
have been suspended with pay. Back with Sam, Tanya, Mike, John, and Cheryl. Are we suggesting these officers, Tanya, overreached their legal
authority? Do they have a legal problem in addition to sort of a employment problem?
ACKER: Look, I think that it is important to remember what you said, about context. I think it is important to remember that these are law
enforcement folks who are going into a situation where admittedly, you know, I heard David pointed out --
PINSKY: John. John.
ACKER: John. John pointed out that they were barricaded. I do not want to short shrift to what that means. But by the same token, we cannot get
short shrift to the necessity of law enforcement officers to respond proportionally.
I am not saying that an officer, who has the door slammed on him has to just walk away and say, "Excuse me, I am sorry for bothering you." But,
there is a proportionate response to that sort of bad behavior.
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I live in Florida. And, I had a party with my friends. And, once the cops just showed up, and what we did was
just say, "I am sorry, and turn off the music."
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Right.
ACKER: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, that is what we usually do.
ACKER: Thank you.
PINSKY: Yes.
[21:15:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And my dad -- my dad is a cop.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, I know how stressful this job is. So, when you are called to do your job in the middle of the night, you just
expect respect from the people. And, these people do not respect the cops. And, I know how stressful it is.
I am not saying that, "Oh, they were right to pull the people down and just punch them." It is not right. But, we have to understand that people have
to just do what the law says. You know, it is not right.
PINSKY: Right. And, John, I think you would agree with that. I mean this is the back and forth we keep having, these conversations between people --
maybe cops not de-escalating things, maybe taking this too far, but the individuals that are the object of the police activity resisting or not
just doing what the police say, right?
CARDILLO: Well, yes. And, you know, the judge understands that. Obviously, she has seen these cases. Barricades are very dangerous. And,
the escalation came from the students, not the police in this case. The cop was calm.
PINSKY: But, you say right there, John. It is students. You know, what I mean, it is not like a crack house they were going into.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
CARDILLO: Yes. But, Dr. Drew -- But hold on a second. You know, that is a designation that we in the media are giving this, but students can kill
just as easily as anybody else. I mean, these are physically fit men.
PINSKY: Well, it has happened. There certainly have been school shootings, but --
CATHERWOOD: I also would like to point out that -- I mean they are showing up to -- there is a complaint.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: You know, there has been a complaint made. The police were needed on the scene. Now, how things turned out, again, we can debate this
forever. But like as someone who knows what it is like to have contraband in a house when the police show up, the last thing you want to do is, like,
further provoke the police.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
If I know I have some blow, though, I would not want to be like, "You do not have the right to come in here." I would be like, "Officer, officer, I
will turn my radio down immediately. I am very sorry for disturbing you."
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Like I think that although the -- you know, everyone having a digital camera in their pocket all the time now, it can expose corruption.
But, it also gives people a false sense of bravado.
PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: If I just film this cop, I can get away with anything I want.
SCHACHER: There are various --
PINSKY: Let me hear from him. Real quick, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I just feel like it is just a process of a bunch of bad reactions. They are college students. They did not look
like they were aware of what was actually going on at the door. So, it is like being adults, the cops should have understood you are dealing with
children. So, you have to understand to go the perfect route with children.
PINSKY: Maybe. But, John was saying --
SCHACHER: 20, 21 years old, I would not call them kids.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. They are not kids, but I am saying, at the same time. You know you are at a college and you know you
are dealing with --
PINSKY: Well, he was off campus.
SCHACHER: Yes. And, I would not send -- how many cops were there for a noise complaint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: That is a little much, but -- so, I see what your point is, but at the same token, what you just brought up Mike, there is this entitlement
nowadays.
PINSKY: There is a camera.
SCHACHER: There is such a lack of respect for authoritative figures, for police officers, and if we can build solutions. Cheryl, you stated a
solution earlier. That is where I would like to see the dialogue and the conversation go.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Is how do we bridge this respect again between citizens and blues.
PINSKY: And, Mike, was it you that said yesterday, you were calling it sort of Google rights?
CATHERWOOD: Yes. No. Everyone is now like a Google attorney.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: I do not have to do that. He is like, "Yes, you do. You have no idea what you are talking about."
PINSKY: That video -- in my ear, they said, it was a Google physician. I have been dealing with that for years.
CATHERWOOD: YouTube Law School.
PINSKY: After the video went viral, there is a hash tag that sort of trending. The hash tag was #FratLivesMatter. Here is the tweet. "Bama
incident just goes to show cops are not only after black people. #FratLivesMatter."
ACKER: Is that a joke?
SCHACHER: I really hope so. I really hope so.
PINSKY: Maybe that is a joke, but it is trending. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: At the end of the day, we have all lost respect for each other. When you get a call for noise complaint, they
do not know if there is three people in there or 30 people in there. They are there to do the job.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, if you escalate toward them, they are going to escalate back. If they open the door and ask to come in, just
say no.
PINSKY: I just like to hear Cheryl say this, "You put your hands on somebody, what is going to happen?"
DORSEY: Well, bad things happen --
PINSKY: That is right.
(LAUGHING)
DORSEY: -- when you put your hands on the police. Let me say this. We are the professionals, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: And. So, we are trained to deal with these kinds of people. We are trained to deal with uncooperative. We are trained to deal with
insolent. And, so, as the professional, I should conduct myself accordingly. And, I am to de-escalate and not ratchet it up all the time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Nancy Grace just talk to one -- just spoke to one of the bystanders who witnessed the entire thing. Let us hear what they had to
say. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK WEAVER, WITNESSED ARRESTS: I happened to walk up on the incident. As you see in the video, the cop was starting to pull the first victim out,
and then his friend pulled him back in. I ran by as soon as I saw that happened and ran into a friend`s apartment.
And, by the time I made it back out with him, I witnessed all of the policemen running in, dragging people out. I witnessed the individuals
being tasered and beat violently. We are told that it was from a noise complaint, but I just cannot see where those actions -- where a noise
complaint would warrant those actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:04] PINSKY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I personally feel that it is an officer`s job to be calm, cool, collective, and to restore order.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think that they were just a little bit out of their boundaries, and I believe that the officer was not able to
remain calm just by names and talking, and he flew off the handle. So, I think that he should have been more in control of his emotions.
PINSKY: And, John, do not you think if these guys, some of these police look back at this video, they would say, it spiraled -- they would prefer
it did not get so out of control, right? I am sure they are not happy with how this all turned out.
CARDILLO: No. I am sure they are not.
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: My question to Cheryl is, why did not she de-escalate the domestic violence complaints, about five of them at her own home?
PINSKY: John. John, stop. John, stop.
CARDILLO: It is true.
DORSEY: Get a life. I was a victim of domestic violence, John.
CARDILLO: Well, why did not you de-escalate that.
DORSEY: And, I am not ashamed of that.
CARDILLO: Off you go.
DORSEY: So, you are not going to shame me here. OK? If you want to know about my domestic violence, buy my book and read it. I talk all about it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: There you go. Hold up. Stop right there. Thank you, everybody.
Next up, transgender child controversy. Two caretakers fired for refusing to acknowledge his transition from female to male. Stay with us. We will
be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:20] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 6-year-old has sparked controversy at a day care center in Katy, Texas. The child`s parents, both
man, say their son is transgendered. They have asked the children`s lighthouse school not to call him a girl anymore and to treat him like a
boy. The owner agreed, but two employees did not and they were fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: These two employees who were fired are now suing. Back with Sam, Tanya, Mike. Joining me, Ryan Sorba, head of the Young Conservatives of
California. And, Sam, you got some more details on this.
SCHACHER: Yes. One of the women, Madeline Kirksey, she is a Christian author. She was fired as manager because she would not go along with the
decision to treat the little girl as a little boy. She cited her religious belief and said it was her duty to protect the girl from bullying.
PINSKY: Tanya, you are laughing.
ACKER: I just think it is a challenging legal position. I mean, when I hear a teacher say, "I am going to override the decision of parents, I am
going to override the decision of my bosses, and I am going to do what I think is right for the child." I mean, how would we feel, for instance, if
instead of being a Christian author, it was a Muslim author. What if there were a Muslim teacher that says, it is against my religion --
SCHACHER: Yes.
ACKER: -- for me to teach girls who do not wear head scarf? We would see this case very differently.
PINSKY: It is almost like -- what was her -- Davis? What was her name? The license girl --
SCHACHER: Kim.
ACKER: Kim Davis.
PINSKY: Kim Davis.
CATHERWOOD: The truth to be told is that we got to remind ourselves, regardless of how you feel about transgender issues, regardless of how
supportive you are of this young girl`s decision and her parents` decision, it is America, and if you are derelict of duty, your boss can fire you. I
mean like for whatever they want, you know.
PINSKY: Let me bring in Andy Taylor. He is the attorney representing the fired daycare workers. Andy, what are you guys asking for?
ANDY TAYLOR, ATTORNEY FOR FIRED TEXAS DAYCARE EMPLOYEES: Well, first of all, you know, we are not talking about a college age kid. This is a 6-
year-old little innocent girl. I mean, she has been there four months as a girl. I will use fake names, but everybody knows her as sally. And, then
on Monday morning, she comes in and her parents say, she is Johnny.
My client, who is 48 years old, has been in this business educating children for 27 years. She got the highest certification you can get in
the state of Texas. And, warning bells went off. She said, "That is going to hurt this child. She will be ridiculed. It is going to confuse the
other kids." And, the parents are going to learn about this for the first time in the Caroline. That is exactly how not to handle a transgender
student.
SCHACHER: But, at the same token, because I am really good friends with a number of trans males and females who knew at a very young age that they
identified as male or female. Would not this be also a great opportunity to educate the children and the parents on what really it means to be trans
and to teach empathy and to teach tolerance?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
ATTY. TAYLOR: Well, think about it. I think the point that you are making about, would not it be a good opportunity to educate, that is the parental
authority issue. The parents of these little 6-year-old kids are the ones, who have the authority and should be given the license to be able to talk
to their little children about an issue like this. We would not want condoms being handed out at preschool.
SCHACHER: Oh my God.
ATTY. TAYLOR: That is not an issue that they are ready for.
PINSKY: Well, sexuality -- whoa, whoa. Wait. Right.
SCHACHER: Sexuality and gender are different.
PINSKY: Sexuality and gender are very different.
CATHERWOOD: It is not even relevant. Also, I mean kids are going to ridicule other children especially at that age for a lot of things that
their parents impose on them. For instance, plenty of parents feed their kids junk, and I would not agree with it as an educator if I was.
But, if they are overweight, they are going to get made fun of. And, I think it is a little bit irresponsible to assume that an educator has the
right to decide what is morally OK for the children that she educates.
PINSKY: Hang on. Tanya, I see you shifting around, here.
ACKER: I do --
PINSKY: You have all kinds of mixed feelings.
ACKER: I am having a really hard time reconciling what I heard Andy say on the phone. I mean I can appreciate the representation he is providing his
clients and how he wants to protect the rights of these other parents.
But, what about the rights of the parents of the trans child, who have made a decision about how they want her to be raised? It sounds as if Andy is
suggesting that his clients can overrule those parents and defer the others. And, I do not get it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me quickly bring in Jessica Taylor. She is the first transgender airline pilot to retain her FAA medical status. Jessica, I do
not know if you have heard this conversation. Did you hear much of this?
JESSICA TAYLOR, FIRST TRANSGENDER PILOT: Yes, absolutely. A
PINSKY: OK.
TAYLOR: And, I think you are right on in the sense that, you know, there is two different issues here. We are dealing with HIPPA. This is a health
care thing. This is a medical privacy thing. So, when we talk about a student that has come out as transgender, we are not talking about a sexual
orientation, which I think everybody kind of lumps these things into.
PINSKY: Right. Stop . Stop and break that down. So , when the attorney mentioned condoms, it was out of left field. It was bizarre. It is more
like saying, I identify as a tall person or a short person. I identify as a boy, right?
JESSICA TAYLOR: See -- you are right on track right there with that.
PINSKY: Yes.
JESSICA TAYLOR: He is, basically, trying to lump us in with that LGB kind of silent "T" where it is a sexual orientation. This is a medical issue.
It is covered by HIPPA. Somebody that is employed with this employment agency or with this company comes out and starts spreading my medical
information about my medical information about my child or even myself to other employees as well as parents, you have overstepped the bounds now,
and now we are into a legal issue.
[21:30:17] PINSKY: Yes, sir. Put that mic up. You are ready to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Actually, she brought up exactly what I was going to bring up. As a health care provider, I mean HIPPA plays a
huge part in it. And, there is a difference between identifying versus going through the actual transition. So, I mean --
PINSKY: The other thing I would ask is how far do the schools have to go to accommodate? You know what I mean? That is sort of what is at the core
here.
SCHACHER: This is a private school, though, too. So, they are serving the parents, and the parents are serving their child. That is what it is about
here. It is not -- These two employees have no right to infringe their beliefs, which I respect their beliefs. I do not agree with them. But,
they cannot infringe their beliefs on their students.
PINSKY: Ryan.
RYAN SORBA, HEAD OF THE YOUNG CONSERVATIVES OF CALIFORNIA: Dr. Drew, gender dysphoria is a legitimate psychiatric category. I would argue that
the teachers at that school are not even qualified to deal with students, who have gender dysphoria. And, so I do not think that teachers are out of
line at all.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. You are saying --
SORBA: I think the teachers are --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. You are saying they should not be even dealing with it.
SORBA: Of course. And, that is what the teachers are saying is we want out of this situation. We do not believe we understand what is going on.
We better leave this to the professionals. And, we need to let this student be with the professionals that he needs to see because according to
the American Psychiatric Association --
JESSICA TAYLOR: You mitigate that --
SORBA: It is illegitimate -- JESSICA TAYLOR: No, you mitigate that responsibility, and you decide to do it yourself as an uninformed individual? You think that is the right act
as to take it to the people yourself?
SORBA: And, how much more informed are you? How much more informed is the owner of the school? How much more informed are the members of the media
commenting on it every single day?
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: But, Ryan. That is not --
ACKER: Exactly. That is not their position.
CATHERWOOD: The reason they were fired --
ACKER: That is not their position.
CATHERWOOD: -- is because they on their own personal moral and ethical beliefs refused to call her a boy.
SCHACHER: Right.
ACKER: That is right.
SORBA: But, you do not have -- have a moral, ethical point of view.
ACKER: Ryan, but you are suggesting that these teachers said, "We do not think the school should take this tack because we are worried about whether
or not they are going to do it sensitively."
PINSKY: Yes, rightfully so.
ACKER: That is not what the teacher said. The teacher said, "We do not think we should do this because it is against our religious faith." This
is a situation where these teachers are saying, "My religious faith gets to trump the parents` decision."
PINSKY: No. No. Wait. No. Wait. No, that is not --
ACKER: Now, the parents -- the teachers --
PINSKY: I do not think it is quite what it sounded like. But, I think it is quite what he said. Andy, are you still there? Andy, the attorney.
ATTY. TAYLOR: If they want to know the basis, I can tell them because it is in writing.
PINSKY: Sure.
SCHACHER: Please.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ATTY. TAYLOR: This educator -- yes, she is a Christian and has strongly held beliefs. But, it is much more fundamental than that. She sees this
little girl every day for the last four months. She is the one who knows that even though her parents said she is a boy, she still insists in going
in the girl`s rest room.
She also knows that when they played football last week, and she got hit she said, "I do not want to be a boy anymore. This hurts." And, so, it is
not as simple as that this child is ready to be a transgender. I do not know if she is or is not. That is not the issue.
PINSKY: OK.
ATTY. TAYLOR: Who should be triaging this position? And, it is the parents and the school working together. And, everybody should have
accommodation and equal rights. You do not put one over the other.
PINSKY: OK. Hang on.
JESSICA TAYLOR: Do you know what gender dysphoria is? You just described it to the absolute DSM standard. Somebody who does not conform to what
their birth gender is. Gender non-conforming, male to female, female to male. Somebody does not know where they stand in our community. And, you
are criticizing this child for trying to figure out where they fit in the gender spectrum?
SORBA: Nobody is criticizing the child. They are criticizing -- actually the men who are the parents of this child is two men. And, a lot of people
have postulated that it might be that because this little girl was raised by two men, that she might intermittently identifies as a boy.
PINSKY: No. No. No.
JESSICA TAYLOR: No. No. We are exploiting --
SORBA: We do not understand -- development -
JESSICA TAYLOR: We are exploiting somebody`s private medical disability.
SORBA: They made it public when they went to the school and said, "We want you to publicly identify our child as the opposite of their biological
gender."
JESSICA TAYLOR: That is what anybody who is transgender is going to do. That is what anybody who is transgender is going to do.
CATHERWOOD: From a legal standpoint, though, I mean you would know it is a private school. Cannot the owner of the private school just say, I am
firing you because you suck?
SCHACHER: That is what they did.
PINSKY: You know, I am going to talk to the school next. I got to break - - I got to break right here. We will get the word from the school.
Later, an officer open fire on an SUV as it barrels towards him. All caught on a body cam. Stay with us. Look at that.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:34:31] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Caitlyn Jenner has brain condition, the most basic sketch. It is a condition, where that is a self-concept, the gender self-concept.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Caitlyn Jenner, woman of the year. The transgender superstar is under attack. And, even some of Caitlyn`s supporters are wondering, is
this award in fact an insult to women everywhere?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: She is a 65-year-old rich white woman that decided to do this. But, do not tell me you are walking the
truth for other transgender kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA TAYLOR: When you come out in public wearing a dress in public as a man, you lose everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: "Glamour" endorses the idea that men are better at being women than we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Caitlyn Jenner is the reason we began this dialogue on transgender issues. She brought it front in center. Back with Sam, Tanya, Mike,
Jessica and Ryan. We have been talking about a daycare center in Katy, Texas, that fired two staffers that refused to accommodate a 6-year-old
transgender boy.
Joining me now is Jamie Isaacs from the Children`s Lighthouse Learning Center. Jamie, we have heard the attorney on the other side. Tell us why
you fired those workers and what you guys` point of view is.
JAMIE IZAKS, CHILDREN`S LIGHTHOUSE LEARNING CENTER: Well, let us just be clear. The termination papers did not indicate that it was because of the
handling of this particular student. So, there were other matters. And, as you know, the terms of someone`s termination are not for public
discussion. No one would want that. But, it was clear in the termination papers that that was not part of it.
[21:40:00] PINSKY: Do you have a response to what Jamie was just saying in the last segment?
IZAKS: To what Andy was saying?
PINSKY: Andy, I am sorry. Yes, Andy. I beg your pardon.
IZAKS: Well, I mean I want to commend Jessica first of all. I mean she said it the perfect way, which is this is playing out in the public for
something that is completely private to a family and a student and a child, a 6-year-old we are talking about here. I mean, so inappropriate. It is
so irresponsible. Such absurdity to be playing this out the way it is when you can only imagine what this is doing to the family.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, I have -- it is funny I felt connected to Tanya during all of this. We were flip-flopping back and forth on the legal
issues. Go ahead.
ACKER: Well, you know, what is really ironic, and Jamie made a good point just then. We are doing more to protect the privacy of these two -- of
these workers, you know, who filed the lawsuit. We do not know why they were terminated. We do not know what the disciplinary problems were.
PINSKY: Nor do we have a right to know.
ACKER: Nor do we have a right to know, yet and still we are putting the personal family decisions of these two parents, two adult parents, who have
made a choice about how they want to raise their child. And, we are saying that those parental choices can be overridden by teachers, who have a
different view.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, Jessica, I think we would say that not only the parents` choices, it is the parents` attempt to accommodate probably what her
medical team is telling them to do, right? Would not you agree?
JESSICA TAYLOR: Well, I mean even just watching how children play at a playground, you can start to identify the differences in gender and sexual
orientation at a very young age. Michelle Honda, who is Congressman Honda`s daughter, is raising a transgender 8-year-old.
And, what she said is, "We noticed at a very young age that this person started identifying as this, and we just let it go how we want to let her
go and she moved towards the female gender."
SCHACHER: Yes .
PINSKY: Any problem with that, Ryan?
SORBA: I mean a huge percentage of individuals with gender dysphoria, when they are really young come out of it, they grow out of it. And, they stop
with the gender dysphoria. In addition to that, there is the suicide rate for --
(CROSSTALKS)
SCHACHER: Is that true?
JESSICA TAYLOR: I would have to say that is not true.
SORBA: Yes, it is.
JESSICA TAYLOR: I would love to see your data.
SORBA: It is absolutely true. I will send it to you. I promise you that.
JESSICA TAYLOR: I would love that.
SORBA: I promise.
PINSKY: OK. Get the audience member a mic, I want to hear from the audience. Yes, sir. Go right ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: My point is brief about the Texas case. It was a private school. The principal have the right to fire or hire,
whoever they have. In public school districts across this country, principals have power to send a female home if her skirt is too short.
So, it should not be an issue if they want to send them home for cross dressing. Now, Dr. Drew -- let me make this my point. Thanks for the
platform. There should be legislation to regulate transgenders, because it is not fair. In the case of someone like Caitlyn Jenner, if she or she/he
did not go through the process of actually going from -- is it OK to say penis to a vagina?
PINSKY: Yes.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: If there should be documents, there should be paperwork, because you cannot -- In this country, you cannot
impersonate a police officer. True or false.
PINSKY: OK. So, hold on. I get where you are going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You cannot impersonate a police officer. You should not be able to impersonate the opposite sex and get
away with it.
SCHACHER: It is not impersonation. It is not impersonation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is it?
SCHACHER: It is not impersonation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, give me the data.
SCHACHER: It is somebody -- absolutely I am trying to answer you, but you keep interrupting me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: All right.
SCHACHER: It is somebody without a doubt absolutely identifying as the opposite gender that was assigned to them when they were born, OK?
SORBA: How can a 6-year-old do that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. So, legal paperworks --
SCHACHER: Can you imagine if you are a little --
JESSICA TAYLOR: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, because when I was a 6-year- old, I identified as a female, and look at me now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Just the thought of it. The process -- if he/she was 6 years old --
SCHACHER: She or he.
JESSICA TAYLOR: Are you kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. No, I am not kidding.
JESSICA TAYLOR: You know what, this is what is wrong with America right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hold on. No. No. No.
JESSICA TAYLOR: No. You are what is wrong with America right here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: What is wrong with America?
PINSKY: One at a time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You should be regulated.
PINSKY: One at a time.
SCHACHER: Regulated?
JESSICA TAYLOR: I am regulated. I have psychological reports to prove it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The process at 6 years old, the process should have started. Oh, you know what, "I want to be a female."
PINSKY: OK. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Get the paperwork.
PINSKY: Hold on. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dr. Drew, my point is it should be legislated and regulated.
PINSKY: I get your point. OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You cannot impersonate a police officer.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
ACKER: That is a different issue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is traumatizing. It is traumatizing for a man to see --
PINSKY: I understand. I understand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Look how pretty the judge looks. Imagine if she was a man. I would not approach her. And, if I found out
she is a man that is traumatizing, man.
CATHERWOOD: Well, you should be able to follow through if you have a strong enough boner.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Hold on.
CATHERWOOD: Lord knows, I have been there.
PINSKY: Jessica -- hang on. We have some educating to do. Again, there seems to be still a lot of work to do.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Confusion about impersonation, about biological changes versus what goes on with the gender identification in our brains. So, again, it
is work to be done.
JESSICA TAYLOR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Right? OK.
JESSICA TAYLOR: But that is the best part, is we see this play out time after time, however many times I have been here, I am not dealing with the
people that understand it. I am dealing with the people that do not understand it. Come with me for a day and see how my life plays out. See
how it plays as a child and all these people that I meet that are on the cusp of trying to figure out what their identity really is.
PINSKY: Right. And, just the way you develop a sense of self as Jessica or whatever our sense of self is, gender comes along with that, right?
JESSICA TAYLOR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, that is an evolving process across time. And, not everyone chooses to change their anatomy with that gender identification, right?
[21:45:05] JESSICA TAYLOR: No. And, it just depends. Like if you knew how expensive these procedures are and how medical -- how the insurance
companies do not cover a quarter of this and how the people that do it are backlogged. Marci Bowes is backlogged two years right now.
SCHACHER: Wow.
JESSICA TAYLOR: The people in Canada are out three years right now. So, getting in to get this procedure done is not always possible, especially if
you are older.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Do you have any hypothesis why people get so worked up over this?
JESSICA TAYLOR: Yes. I think it is -- the basic comes down to as somebody wants to be able to look at me and identify me right away. And, when they
look at me, what happens is especially with males, they look at me and go, "Dang, girl." And, then they go, "Wait a minute."
That person just completely redefined not only my orientation in my head, but they think that I am trying to fool them. And, it has nothing to do
with a sexual orientation. It has everything to do with how I feel I identify in this world.
CATHERWOOD: And, how is that traumatic to you, sir, if you got somehow, quote, unquote, "Fooled?"
PINSKY: Wait. Hold on. Hold on.
CATHERWOOD: This is unbelievable.
PINSKY: Hang on.
CATHERWOOD: The only person that is traumatic to you is Jessica and other transgender individuals like her, who have to deal with people calling them
he-she --
PINSKY: Hold on.
CATHERWOOD: -- to their face.
PINSKY: Hang on. Guys --
JESSICA TAYLOR: I just got off of a flight, going to Rapid City out to Denver. Somebody was watching me the entire flight. We got to Rapid City.
And, this guy just like the individual just spoke said, "Good night, sir," as he got off my airplane.
PINSKY: Well, that is --
JESSICA TAYLOR: And, the guy was just like this one, where he would not have done it when he was in Denver, where I could have kicked him off my
flight and put him on the "No Fly List". He did it when we got to Rapid City and this is just like this.
PINSKY: OK. So, Tanya, help me.
ACKER: Unfortunately, I think that a lot of this sometimes comes down to, you know, we think it is all about us. Like, the gentleman there, he
thinks that her experience is about him, you know. Trans people are not trying to trick anybody. It is not about the rest of us.
PINSKY: It does not make you like that record scratch feeling, Jessica. When I was first working with you, it is like, "Wait, huh?" I have to
diagram it. I cannot quite figure out. So, it does challenge all of us as well.
(CROSSTALK)
SORBA: Right. And they are asking -- That is their decisioning, that is not --
JESSICA TAYLOR: No, I am not asking you to accept anything.
PINSKY: Hold on.
SORBA: Does our world view allows --
SCHACHER: But, if you come from a place of empathy and tolerance, I think it is pretty clear.
PINSKY: But, hang on. I need a judge in a situation like this. So , I got to wrap it up. Finish it up, Tanya.
ACKER: Well, my point simply is that it is incumbent on us to say, we are going to accord you rights and respect if I get it. You know, if I know
somebody like you -- and I do, but it should not matter.
People are entitled to live their reality if it is not interfering with anybody else. I defy you, sir, to point out how this woman living her life
is keeping food off your table, is keeping you from getting a job. It is just not true. It is just not true.
JESSICA TAYLOR: Absolutely.
PINSKY: All right. A 14-year-old girl mowed down by a hit-and-run driver. We will show you how she is doing. Stay with us.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:52:00] PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix", where my guests tell me what is trending on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds. And, Mike?
CATHERWOOD: I normally love girl fights. I love when you have the girl fight videos on you. But, this one is not funny. It ends in an almost
unbearable fashion. This past Friday, two middle school girls in Houston got into a fight, and it ends with a hit-and-run.
PINSKY: Oh.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. It is too graphic to even show. Video was posted to Instagram by others at the fight, and it went viral. Police have a name
but are still looking for the driver, who is apparently is in her 20s.
Meanwhile, the 14-year-old victim, DeBrianna Hunter, remains in the hospital. She has had three surgeries so far and has suffered a broken
hip, broken ribs, a broken leg, and still has internal bleeding.
PINSKY: I think that is -- for five days out from that episode, I think that somebody is going to do OK. You hear a different kind of story if it
were really bad. But, you know, there can be complications, but we will say prayers for her. Tanya?
ACKER: Well, I got another very graphic story here. This comes from surveillance video from the entrance of the West Bank city of Beitar Illit
--
PINSKY: Oh, I saw this.
ACKER: -- which is an ultraorthodox Jewish settlement just south of Jerusalem. What happened is that a Palestinian woman walks up to the
checkpoint. Shows the Israeli guard her I.D., pulls a knife from her purse and then stabs him.
What we do not see is that the guard then shoots the woman after the stabbing. She is now in a hospital in a medically-induced coma. The guard
suffered moderate injuries. We are getting more details on this.
But, sadly, this seems to be part of a wave of attacks in Jerusalem, Israel, and the West Bank that started only in September. Two hours before
the incident that we just saw, a 22-year-old Palestinian was killed by border police after he purposely accelerated into a crowd of Israelis
waiting for a bus.
SCHACHER: Oh, my God.
PINSKY: That is terrible. OK. All right. Sam --
SCHACHER: I do not even know how to transition into mine --
PINSKY: More uplifting news?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: We are switching gears. So tragic. A lot of people are up in arms about this cup. This new Starbucks minimalist cup, saying that it is
a war on Christmas.
PINSKY: Now, wait a minute, it is red and green.
SCHACHER: It is red and green.
PINSKY: It says Christmas.
SCHACHER: It is not what it used to be, though, Dr. Drew. So, they are really pissed off on this new cup.
PINSKY: Who?
SCHACHER: Calling it a war on Christmas.
PINSKY: Is this Ryan? Is Ryan back in here?
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Probably. Starbucks says they wanted the public to add their own Christmas doodles. Trump chimed in yesterday at a campaign in
Springfield, Illinois. Let us hear what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I had one of the most successful Starbucks in TRUMP tower. Maybe we should boycott Starbucks. I do not
know. Seriously. I do not care.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
TRUMP: By the way, that is the end of that lease, but who cares? But, if I become president, we are all going to be saying "Merry Christmas again,"
that I can tell you. That I can tell you.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: And, if you looked on your Facebook feed today, I did. I saw a lot of people upset. And, to me, that is just like first world problems.
Why are we so upset about a cup? Get over it!
CATHERWOOD: You know why?
PINSKY: Why?
CATHERWOOD: Do you know why?
PINSKY: Why?
CATHERWOOD: Because there is nobody driving cars into people for their religion. There is no people getting -- guards getting stabbed at a border
over their religion in this country. People have to make a fuss over a stupid cup at Starbucks. Stop it.
[21:55:07] Go celebrate Christmas. Everybody say, Merry Christmas, Happy Holliday. Celebrate with your family. Put up your Christmas trees. Have
a good time. The Starbucks cup means nothing!
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, I would argue that because we are not -- we do live civilly here, everybody celebrates. Let us not have to hold back.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: If they held back Christmas trees, that is a sad thing.
SCHACHER: Well, doodle on it, then.
ACKER: Come on! I do not know if it is holding back. Look, I do not have any less Christmas cheer when I see that cup.
PINSKY: All right. We have to go. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00] PINSKY: Thank you, audience. Thank you, panel. Join us after the show at our Facebook page for the after show. DVR us and you can watch
any time. We will see you next time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
