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Dr. Drew
One Hour After Police Respond to A Noise Complaint, A Man Is Dead; Lambert`s Family Has Filed A Lawsuit For His Wrongful Death; 16-Year-Old Victim Of The Jared Fogle Child Sex Abuse Scandal Says She Was Brainwashed And Manipulated; An Officer Opens Fire As An SUV Barrels Towards Him; Teacher Yanks A Chair From A Student, Loses Job. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 11, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:00:13] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: Tonight, explosive video. A man in police custody arms and legs shackled, yet he is
tased perhaps at least 20 or more times and tonight, this man is dead. We will tell you what happened.
Plus, the teen at the center, or a teen at the center of the Jared Fogle child sex scandal is talking now. We will hear from her. Let us get to
the "Top of the Feed", though.
Police picked up Linwood Lambert after responding to a noise complaint. About one hour later, this man was dead. Lambert`s family has filed a
lawsuit. And, they provided us with dash cam and surveillance video that you have to see. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(POLICE TASING LINWOOD LAMBERT)
LINDON LAMBERT, MAN WHO DIED AN HOUR AFTER BEING TASED WHILE BOTH HANDS AND FEET WERE SHACKLED: (Groaning in pain)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: Turn around . Turn around.
LAMBERT: No ma`am. No ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: On your stomach. On your stomach. On your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get on your stomach.
LAMBERT: Stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get on your stomach. Get on your stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: Roll around.
LAMBERT: (Inaudible)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I got the shackles. I got the shackles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me Areva Martin, Attorney and legal consultant; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Pepperdine University; Pat Bullard,
T.V. Host and writer. I also have Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD Retired, author of "The Creation of a Manifesto: Black & Blue, and on Skype, John
Cardillo, WJNO Radio host and former NYPD Officer.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Lambert was tased maybe more than 20 times in the course about half an hour. I look at this tape and Judy, the first thing I think to myself is,
we can train psych techs how to handle people who are psychiatrically ill, frankly, wherein behaving in violent ways because of a psychiatric
condition. Why cannot we expect that of police officers?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. And, I think originally the police did have the plan to take him to the emergency room. They noticed
he was being paranoid --
PINSKY: They knew he was mentally ill. They thought this guy is paranoid. He is isolating.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Off he goes to the E.R. appropriate, completely appropriate.
HO: Totally appropriate. He was becoming more agitated as they were working with him, so they did actually put him in cuffs for the car ride;
but he became more agitated. So, then really what happened was he came out as you can see in this scene, ran up to the glass, kicked down the door,
and they started to actually tase him.
And, it was during this confrontation that the man blurted out, "I used cocaine". And, all of a sudden their plan sort of switched. They decided
to take him to jail instead. And, in the course of that, they put him back in the cuffs in the car and then that is when all of the tasing happened.
PINSKY: Let me show you the video from inside the patrol car. This first happens before -- what you see initially is what he is doing before he
rushes the hospital doors. And, let us be fair. When he rushes those doors, that is dangerous for him and everybody else. They have to do
something.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, in the last piece of this tape is when they dragged him back to the car. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Do not kick the window. Do not kick the window. Quit kicking the window. Calm down! Calm down!
LAMBERT: OK.
UNIDENTIFIE MALE OFFICER: Calm down!
LAMBERT: OK. I am going to calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Calm down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, he was tased 20 or more times each delivering 50,000 volts. John Cardillo, appropriate? I do not know. I think of a thousand other
ways to handling this guy.
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: You know, I am 50/50 on this. Believe it or not. You know, you got to understand how this case started. They
were called to a motel room for loud noises and a commotion. When they got there, he started talking about knowing where bodies were buried.
There were a lot of things he said that warranted further investigation of a violent crime. The guy kicks out the patrol car window. He rushes the
hospital doors. Now, it is important to understand that they did not shoot him with 20 different taser barbs. They delivered three barbs of a taser.
Three different tasers.
And, they shocked him a total of 20 times. Now, where I disagree with the cops is that once they made the decision to bring him to the hospital, he
should have been medically reviewed --
PINSKY: Thank you.
CARDILLO: -- before being transported to jail.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Thank you. That is all I am saying. How about ask for some help from the psyche staff there in the emergency room? They know how to handle
cases like this. -- Wait, wait.
PAT BULLARD, T.V. HOST, WRITER: And, he was heading right into the doors where he should be.
PINSKY: Take him in.
BULLARD: He was going to the place where they took him. He was hand cuffed.
HO: Right.
[21:05:00] BULLARD: He was right where they should have had him.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Yes.
BULLARD: Instead, his hands are behind his back. His feet are tied. They put him back in the cruiser.
PINSKY: Why?
BULLARD: And, then --
PINSKY: Why? Why, they put them back?
BULLARD: I am not sure. But, in my mind --
HO: The cocaine.
PINSKY: Because he said , "I used cocaine."
HO: He used cocaine.
BULLARD: "I used cocaine."
PINSKY: That becomes -- then now we got immoral judgment that drug addicts are bad.
BULLARD: He is hallucinating at the hotel.
PINSKY: Right.
BULLARD: He could say anything now.
PINSKY: Well, listen, cocaine addicts --
BULLARD: Cocaine might have done that.
PINSKY: But, his behavior was, you know, agitated, manic state, you often see in cocaine psychosis, where they are freaked out about uniform
officers, somebody with a cocaine psychosis. You hear people in uniform come get him. He is going to be agitated.
And, they know that. They have seen this a million times. But, it is -- Because he says cocaine, they make a judgment, and say, "Areva, he is a bad
guy. This man is a drug addict." Why is not drug addict and mental illness the same thought? Why do they have to differentiate them?
BULLARD: Right.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL CONSULTANT: What is really disturbing -- and John, you said that he said some weird things in the hotel that needed
further investigation. That is so factually inaccurate. What the police concluded was that this man needed mental help. He needed some assistance
from a medical professional. They were taking him to the E.R.
They were not going off to do some investigation. They knew he was hallucinating and that he was just talking out of his head. So, they knew
he had a mental health condition, and yet they left that hospital, put him in the car. I look at that tape and I see a man who was murdered by the
police. He was murdered by the police.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
CARDILLO: Can I respond to that one?
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: You know, Areva. Areva, if you were a police officer or any kind of supervisor, you responded to a scene where somebody mentioned
buried bodies and you did not investigate it, you would be out of a job very quickly. So, thank God you were never a cop.
MARTIN: But, you are making up facts.
CARDILLO: No, I am not.
MARTIN: As the police never said they were trying to investigate.
CARDILLO: Areva. Areva.
MARTIN: They said they realized --
CARDILLO: Areva, that is --
MARTIN: -- he had a mental condition and they were taking him to the hospital, John.
CARDILLO: I am telling you how police procedure works for having been a police officer, something you were not.
BULLARD: Well, you need to tell them --
MARTIN: John, I do not have to be a police officer to understand the facts. I am a trained civil rights lawyer, and the facts say --
CARDILLO: Which has nothing to do it --
PINSKY: OK. Hold on.
MARTIN: It has everything to do with this.
PINSKY: Let me bring in John`s friend, Cheryl. Cheryl.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: He has another friend here other than me?
PINSKY: Sergeant -- Yes, I stacked the cards a little bit tonight. Cheryl, what do you see here?
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD (RET): So, having been a supervisor.
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: And having been in patrol for a significant amount of time, what they did was outrageous. And, we understand that, that was about what I
like to refer to as punishment.
We hear the officers over and over telling this young man that they are going to punish him. If you do not stop this, if you do not do that, I am
going to light you up, I am going to let you have it. That is punishment. That is not overcoming resistance.
HO: Right.
DORSEY: And, you know what troubles me really is, I wonder where were the supervisors? Because as a field supervisor, you have an affirmative
responsibility to be there and supervise and manage this situation.
Certainly, someone should have been listening to their radio to discern that something has gone left here, let me go by and take a look and see
what is going on, intervene.
PINSKY: Something very much -- what did you say, something has gone left, is that what you said?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
DORSEY: Yes .
MARTIN: Something is going wrong --
PINSKY: Yes, something has gone wrong.
DORSEY: Gone wrong.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: They already talked to the guy and he is already acting like he is having hallucinations --
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- before they get there.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why would not you then just take him to the hospital where they have somebody who can take care of him instead of
leaving again with him?
PINSKY: Right. Because he said, while he was being tased -- he said, "You know what, I have got a lot of cocaine. I have been doing a bunch of
cocaine." And, they went, "Oh, really, a drug addict? This is now a criminal."
BULLARD: Yes.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Which is so wrong. Why anybody -- Areva, help me.
MARTIN: Well, he did not stop being --
PINSKY: No, but listen. I am really upset about this.
MARTIN: I am upset about it, too.
PINSKY: Because they are separating drug addiction and mental health.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: This guy had both.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: And, why, do we live in a time when the cops find out somebody who is mentally ill and now medically ill too, by the way. This guy clearly
had some medical problems that went unaddressed. Even if it was just that he had so much cocaine on board. And, they -- to make a moral
determination, is a criminal.
MARTIN: Let us add to that. You pick up an African-American man in a motel, who now says he has cocaine. So, now we have -- he is African-
American. He is male. He admits to using cocaine and all of a sudden everything about his mental health goes away.
We are no longer treating a man who has mental health. Now, we are treating a black man who uses drugs. And, we know that does not end well
in the criminal justice system.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: And, Judy -- And, Judy, I would not even say -- even call what he had mental health is somewhat inaccurate. That is a medical problem. That
is a medical emergency he was in.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: In which mental health was a component, right?
HO: That is right.
BULLARD: What is also frightening -- I am sorry. All three officers have since been promoted.
PINSKY: Yes, I know.
BULLARD: They have not only been let go by the police department, they have been promoted. And, there is something so smug about that. Something
about, watch what we do. Watch what we can do and get away with it.
HO: Well, and they are being reinforced for behavior that is not just bad behavior, it is completely the wrong action to take as you mentioned with a
medical illness --
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: -- and a mental health condition, which they actually planned to take him in for.
PINSKY: But, here is the --
HO: They actually called ahead of time and told the mental health division that they were bringing somebody in for an evaluation.
[21:10:00] PINSKY: And, I hate to judge and, you know, be the judge and jury of what it was like to be out there in the field like those officers.
But, my question -- The refrain I keep coming to, which is "Why cannot we make our officers more sophisticated about these conditions?" Pretty
simple.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: We will keep it going.
And, later, a teen at the center of the Jared Fogle sex scandal says she was secretly videotaped naked. It is awful. Stay with us.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Do not kick the window. Do not kick the window. Quit kicking the window. Quit kicking the window.
LAMBERT: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Calm down!
LAMBERT: OK. I am going to calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I will. I will.
(POLICE OFFICERS TASERING LAMBERT)
LAMBERT: (Groaning in pain). Do not do it. Stop doing it. Stop doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:07] PINSKY: Police dash cam video show some of what happened leading up to the death of 46-year-old Linwood Lambert. He died in police
custody after being tased at least 20 times. His family has filed a civil suit against the police. Back with Areva, Judy, Pat, John, and Cheryl.
Judy, did you tell me -- Somebody told me he was even tased 70 times or something.
HO: Yes, there are some reports --
PINSKY: Where did -- How did they come up with that?
HO: They do not know how many of those tases landed but it was activated above 70 times between the three people together --
PINSKY: That is a lot of electricity.
MARTIN: We should also know, Dr. Drew, that even in the manual for this police department, their conduct was in violation of their own internal
policies as well as federal guidelines for tasing someone.
And, basically, these guidelines say when someone is already restrained like this guy with his hands behind his back and feet shackled, there is no
justification for continuing to tase him. They are already restrained.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes. Pat?
BULLARD: Well, yes, I mean that is the thing. To me, once they had him back in the cruiser, now it is a different game, is not it? Is not it time
-- now all you are doing by tasing him really is torturing him.
PINSKY: Well, what -- historically -- John, correct me if I am wrong. This is an awful maneuver but what police often do is hogtie somebody,
right? So, they do not kick out the windows and that kind of thing. We hate to see that, but you wonder, why they did not try a more advanced kind
of restraint on this guy, no?
CARDILLO: Yes. I mean, they should have. Look, Areva is dead wrong. Pat is actually right.
BULLARD: Whoa!
CARDILLO: Areva is wrong.
MARTIN: What is new.
CARDILLO: You can tase -- you can tase a handcuffed suspect if they are violent--
MARTIN: That is in the book, John. Read the book.
CARDILLO: No, it is not. Areva, you are wrong. If they are violent --
MARTIN: Read the book, John.
CARDILLO: Areva, I spoke to their --
PINSKY: Let us see what he says.
CARDILLO: I spoke to their department today. You are dead wrong. With all due respect, you are dead wrong. Now, Pat is correct. I, personally,
think once he was in the back of the vehicle in the cage, the tasing should have ended.
BULLARD: John, I think it is very important to realize this is not a contest, but, again --
MARTIN: Thank you.
BULLARD: But, again, you say Pat is right?
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: And, Pat is on my side, John. So, do not get it twisted.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I want to just address John, myself. He said that they have to investigate this in the police department. They
can take him to the hospital, give him sedation, have him restrained and then take him later.
PINSKY: I think that is what they were doing. They were taking him first -- appropriately -- it was good up until the point they charge -- he said
cocaine and then they hauled him off.
HO: That is right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, besides that, it seems today there are too many police who basically seem to be criminals, who decided
to do their business legally behind a badge.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, I --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Without --
PINSKY: Well, again, we are standing in judgment. Cheryl, help straighten that out. I mean, I do not want to sit as judge and jury of the police.
DORSEY: Well, you know, when I talk, I never speak about all, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: So, I am not referring to all officers, but clearly I do not believe that this was the first time these officers acted that way. You do
not start off tasing someone 70 times, right? And, so understand that --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, did you see -- if you guys could air -- when Cheryl is talking, air the video from the hospital door down. You see the fear on
these officers` face. They look scared.
HO: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: And, I understand that, but that is not the time to start tasing I do not think, is it?
DORSEY: Well, listen, if you are scared then you should probably call the police, right? Because you do not get to being the police and be scared.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
HO: Also, they have all that help in the world. There were people watching from the other side of the glass door at the hospital.
PINSKY: Yes. Why not get the hospital --
HO: They are medically trained professionals.
PINSKY: I know. Really, these are not uncommon behaviors in a psychiatric unit or even in an emergency room.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: We know exactly how to handle these guys. And, you do not have to be violent with them to get them to calm down.
BULLARD: Right. Absolutely.
HO: Yes. Dr. Drew, before I even had my degree, I was trained in one of those facilities.
PINSKY: Really?
HO: We had -- Yes, we had to learn how to restrain them safely. And, you never attempt to restrain by yourself. It always has to be at least two
people. And, there is ways that you de-escalate them.
PINSKY: And, it is not that hard.
HO: I was not trained then. I was just a kid.
PINSKY: Right. And, I worked for many, many years in a psychiatric hospital. We trained lots of people to do this.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: And, we considered it an object failure when we had to restrain somebody with leather, and we rarely had to do that. Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, until you address the system that is based on, then a lot of this stuff is going to keep on happening.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: What do you -- Wait. Wait. Hang on a second. Hold on. Do not applaud this yet. We do not know what he is talking about. Yes, what do
you mean?
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, the system of white supremacy pretty much.
PINSKY: Well, I hate to go there with this, because --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: No, I mean, this is three years in, and it is always happening and It is always us just getting burned end of it.
PINSKY: Areva?
MARTIN: Well, I think what you are talking about is the disparities in the criminal justice system and how African-American men in particular are
treated. And, we have seen this played out over and over again on high- profile cases.
And, unfortunately, more often than not, the cases that we have been talking about on this show and others are African-American men. Now, it
does not mean it does not happen to other people, but disproportionately so many of these stories involve black men. So, that is where the sentiment I
think comes from.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: We showed a story recently -- not that recently but it was a mentally-ill homeless man in San Francisco. Were you on the show for that
story?
MARTIN: I saw that. Yes.
PINSKY: We had a group of cops -- there it is, where they were taking this guy down.
MARTIN: Yes, I was here.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: But, their behavior was appropriate. I mean they needed to do this. The guy was running in the street but he had one leg.
It looks like bad form, but they did not use tasing.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: But, people were upset even about this. If you remember -- if you guys have move ahead -- could you have the fight that Mike got into with
our audience member. I think we do have some of that tape.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. Would you please air that? And, you will see where people go with this, which is very similar to what this gentleman just said. And,
I hate --where do we go with all that? I mean go ahead. Let us air that video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S CO-HOST ON "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO: I have been around white supremacists. They do not look like that. They have
nothing to do --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAEDRIA LABOUVIER, THE WOMAN WHO RECORDED THE INCIDENT: You think that is what supremacist is --
CATHERWOOD: That is a debatable treatment of a guy, who is mentally ill and a criminal. And --
(CROSSTALK)
LABOUVIER: I think that you need to go down to the history books before you make that statement. That is a continuum of lynching that we are
seeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh. You know, I hear conversations like that, I go, OK, come on.
HO: I got to say, that was very bad form of restraint. There is no restraint in the book that you sit on somebody`s knees like that.
PINSKY: But, not in a medical setting.
HO: Yes. But, they are trying to do something --
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: -- without resorting to higher violence. I applaud that part. But, they were really kind of, you know, doing it a very, very bad way.
PINSKY: But, what do we do -- this gentleman brings up an issue a race gets into this conversation.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: They came up there.
HO: I know.
PINSKY: Pat, help me.
BULLARD: Yes. I mean, it keeps coming up. And, we keep seeing it time and time again and we have to resist the urge to think it is always the
same. It is always black people. They are always attacking, tasing. They are not.
But it is painful. Every time we see it, and it is not stopping. This situation felt a little different to me because we see so many times police
saying, "Stop. Stop what you are doing." There was none of this. This poor guy was out of his head and he needed help.
MARTIN: But, I think the stereotypes for me, what is disturbing about this, and that is what you keep getting at, Dr. Drew, is once he mentioned
the cocaine --
HO: The cocaine. Yes.
MARTIN: Everything changed.
BULLARD: Yes.
MARTIN: That was the stereotyping that happens to black men.
PINSKY: And, so the question -- This is where I think you can ask the question really carefully, which once you mention drug and the guy is an
African-American male, now it is a criminal.
MARTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: You know what I mean?
MARTIN: All of the negative, all of the evil hateful things that people see and think, unfortunately, about black men. So, I think that is the
sentiment that we are hearing.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I agree with Dr. Drew 1,000 percent that there needs to be better protocols for restraint and the fact of the
matter was as soon as they did mention -- he mentioned cocaine --
HO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- they treated him entirely differently --
HO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Removed him from a hospital facility. I just feel like there needs to be a better protocol. They are not
supposed to be judge and jury. They are literally just supposed to be detaining them or restraining them.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
HO: And, this is the problem. This is part of the problem because about 30 or 40 years ago, we tried to do a reeducation of everybody involved
including lay people that substance abuse issues are like a medical illness.
PINSKY: I know. I know.
HO: But, I do not think that is sticking, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Who are you talking to? I scream about it all the time. Last word, Cheryl.
DORSEY: Dr. Drew, for me I can take race out of this equation.
PINSKY: Thank you.
DORSEY: Because for me, what I see is I see police officers who are drunk with power. We are getting ready to go to court right now in Fullerton
because a mentally-ill white man by the name of Kelly Thomas was beaten savagely by police officers. Police officers, who put gloves on and said I
am about to "F" you up.
HO: Yes.
It is about punishment. And, that is what this was about. It is about making him pay for not doing a thing. And, maybe in his mind he could not
do that thing, he could not cooperate, but you do not get to punish him. You do not get to tase him.
PINSKY: And, I got to go, but here is the deal. We are calmly having this conversation. Thank you for bringing up the topic and let us examine it
carefully, calmly without spinning out.
Next, a 16-year-old victim of the Jared Fogle child sex abuse scandal says she was brainwashed and manipulated. Hear her story next. Stay with us.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is part of the craziness of this perpetrators. They believe the children are driving the hookup. The children want this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: We know a lot of these kids were brought into Jared`s space because he held these camps. They were sponsored by Subway all over the
country. So, I think in addition to the criminal case we are going to see lots of civil lawsuits.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oftentimes, they were victims themselves.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: They have a weird identification with the child as a sexual object and believe the children wants to be part of this but the really sick --
the thing that is so weird about it is they can pick their victims with uncanny accuracy.
HO: Right
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He knew how to pick his victims, someone from a broken home. Give her love, give her attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER: Thirteen years for 14 victims is still in my view a very light sentence. He is still a young man. I do not know
what he is, maybe middle age. He can get out and he can do this over and over again. I mean, when are we going to take child sexual abuse
seriously? This should be a life sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: First victim identified in the Jared Fogle sex scandal is revealing details about a home wired -- That is right, wired to secretly
record children showering, undressing. I like to choke on this story.
As part of a plea deal, Russell Taylor, the head of Jared Fogle`s foundation admitted using hidden cameras, sharing the explicit videos then
with Fogle. 16-year-old Analissa spoke to Dr. Phil. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANALISSA, JARED FOGLE`S CHILD SEX SCANDAL VICTIM: It is a weird feeling of something going on. But, at the time I did not fully understand that.
PHILIP CALVIN "PHIL" MCGRAW, HOST OF "DR. PHIL" PROGRAM: What did the three of you do there during the summer?
ANALISSA: We would mainly stay at the house. We did not go out much. The only time we did leave was to go to the liquor store, where Russell took
us.
DR. PHIL: So, obviously, you could not buy liquor. Who was buying the liquor for you?
ANALISSA: Russell was buying the liquor.
DR. PHIL: So ,he was buying liquor and giving it to you?
ANALISSA: Yes.
DR. PHIL: And, what were you drinking?
ANALISSA: He brought us Smirnoff, beer. I think --
DR. PHIL: So, Vodka and beer?
ANALISSA: Yes. Yes.
DR. PHIL: Did you drink to excess? I mean did you get drunk?
ANALISSA: Yes.
DR. PHIL: Did you get drunk? Did you pass out? Not remember what all happened? What went on?
ANALISSA: I do not remember all that what happened, but I do remember being very, very intoxicated.
DR. PHIL: Are you at all concerned of anything that may have happened when you were really drunk, because you may or may not remember it?
[21:30:01] ANALISSA: I am a little concerned, but I can only hope that nothing happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Russell Taylor`s attorney says his client, quote, "Categorically denies", unquote, giving alcohol to minors. Back with Areva, Judy, and
Pat. And, joining us, Brian Russell, Psychologist, Attorney, author of a new book "Stop Moaning, Stop Owning." Now, she does not even know if
something happened to her. So, Judy, it might have been worse than we even imagine, right?
HO: Right.
PINSKY: I mean these guys were out of control.
HO: Exactly. And, we do not even know what is brimming under the surface, but one of the things that they utilize a lot, of course, the manipulation
and building the trust gradually. It does not happen right away. They are luring them in with the alcohol.
And, the alcohol has the double intention of actually impairing them, too. So, their judgment is going to be impaired if things start to transgress,
they may not notice it right away. Plus, they are with adults. What are we taught when we are younger?
PINSKY: Trust them.
HO: Is to trust adults and listen to what they say.
BULLARD: And, he pled guilty to so many of these things. He has admitted to doing these things with young children. But, the one he is adamant
about is, "I did not buy them alcohol."
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes, right.
BULLARD: "I am no creep."
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Brian, that is where I draw the line, giving alcohol to kids. Taking pictures of them without their clothes on, that is fine. But --
BRIAN RUSSELL, ATTORNEY, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: All of which begs the question as bad as Fogle and Taylor are, where were this girl is parents?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I know. That is sad. Apparently, the mom is involved with the Dr. Phil interview. We do not have all the tape from that
interview yet. We do not know whether the mom has an explanation for what happened. She may have been hoodwinked, too by these guys, right?
HO: Right.
PINSKY: I mean a guy from Subway comes to take my kid to a camp.
HO: False image.
PINSKY: Yes. A lot of this was grooming that they did at middle schools and camps and things.
RUSSELL: I suppose it is possible but as an attorney, I have to wonder whether there is not a neglect crime here in addition to the exploitation
crimes that we have.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: But, to be fair, these guys, you know -- I am going to show you some of Fogle`s tapes. And, you will hear him, how he selected targets as
these perpetrators do.
A former journalist says she helped the FBI catch Jared Fogel by secretly recording her conversations with him. Here is some of what he told hidden
cameras even to the point where he wanted to use the -- hook up the bedrooms of her own children. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROCHELLE HERMAN-WALROND, COOPERATED WITH FBI BY SCRETLY RECORDING CONVERSATIONS WITH FOGLE: Have you ever been in a locker room at one of
the schools or in the bathrooms or anything? Have you ever done that?
JARED FOGLE, FORMER SUBWAY`S SPOKESMAN: Not -- not during -- not during school, which I wish I would be.
HERMAN-WALROND: Really?
FOGLE: I would love to try to do that at some point.
HERMAN-WALROND: Yes.
FOGLE: That would be so amazing.
HERMAN-WALROND: I wonder how you do that.
FOGLE: I do not know. And, I love like to put the video camera in there, you know?
HERMAN-WALROND: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: At the very last and watch them strip down.
HERMAN-WALROND: Really, without them knowing?
FOGLE: Without them knowing, would you like that? What if we -- what if we put a camera in your kids` room, would they be OK with that?
HERMAN-WALROND: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes.
HERMAN-WALROND: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: Would you rather have it in your son or your daughter`s room?
HERMAN-WALROND: Oh, I do not know. That would be, you know --
FOGLE: Which one do you think would be better?
HERMAN-WALROND: They, you know -- Have you ever -- have you ever hidden a camera anywhere before? Have you done that?
FOGLE: I have not, but I have -- I have thought about going on the internet and buying one, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Brian -- before you say it, Areva. Brian, that is that piece you and I have discussed, that sort of -- that Uber-creepy part we
associate that with associated with sociopathy.
RUSSELL: Yes. And, the good thing -- as awful as that video is, the good thing about it is it shows everybody.
PINSKY: We do not hide what we think is right. We hide what we think is wrong. And, this illustrates that these guys know that what they are doing
is wrong. Any time anybody tells me, "Oh, it is a mental illness and these guys are not guilty by reasonable of insanity." No.
Pedophilia is never by itself, the explanation for child exploitation. It is pedophiles, who are also sociopaths who act out on this dysfunctional
impulses. There are silent suffering pedophiles out there, who never act on it. If somebody acts on it, they are not just a pedophile, they are a
pedophile and a sociopath.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MARTIN: I just want to comment, the statement about where were the parents? We have not seen what this girl`s mom is going to say on the Dr.
Phil show. But, what we do know as you indicated, Dr. Drew, is these guys went after very vulnerable kids.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: They used the umbrella of Subway.
HO: Yes.
MARTIN: They used all the large nest of Subway to attract kids into a camp that was designed to teach them self-esteem, to teach them things about
health and fitness. So, oftentimes, kids that are targeted are kids who do not have all the resources that other kids have.
BULLARD: Yes --
MARTIN: So, they are vulnerable kids.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BULLARD: I assume --
MARTIN: We should not blame the parents.
BULLARD: These guys are somewhat skilled at it.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. Oh, yes!
BULLARD: Perhaps the wrong word, but they know what they are doing. They are very good at it. They know how to move the mother. The thing that
shocks me the most, and that was really hard to listen to.
PINSKY: Yes.
BULLARD: It is very hard to listen to.
PINSKY: Yes.
BULLARD: How strong must that urge be --
PINSKY: Oh, yes.
BULLARD: -- that he would ruin -- the guy had it made. I was a fat guy, I ate a sandwich. I was not fat anymore. I got millions and millions of
dollars. And for nothing, I won the lottery and he is willing to risk it.
[21:35:05] PINSKY: We will address that very issue. Judy, I will go to you when we get back.
Later, an officer opens fire as an SUV barrels towards him. We got it all caught on a body cam. Look at this -- Oh. Stay with us. Be right.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: They just -- they pick on the vulnerable kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: And, people always wondered, "Did the mother know? Did the girlfriend know?" And, I always say do not hold them responsible.
Pedophiles usually have this big secret, and they keep it to themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You should not turn away from this. You should learn from it. There is not dozens of people like that out there. There are thousands.
There are hundreds of thousands out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: This is a guy who was held out to be so wholesome, the guy next door. So, the other lesson in this is anybody can be a pedophile
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: You never get past being molested as a child. You can move on. You can have a good life, but you never forget it. I think it always has
an effect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00] PINSKY: It is literally in their bodies. Their bodies remember it. And, it is like they are experiencing it the rest of their
life. It is horrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Russell Taylor, the guy in charge of Jared Fogle`s charity for children has admitted to secretly recording children in the nude and
sharing those videos with Fogle.
Court documents reveal cameras were hidden inside clocks, radios positioned to catch these children in vulnerable situations. One of the teen victims,
Analissa, told Dr. Phil what it was like inside Russell Taylor`s home. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANALISSA: I do not remember all that what happened, but I do remember being very, very intoxicated.
DR. PHIL: Are you at all concerned of anything that may have happened when you were really drunk because you may or may not remember it?
ANALISSA: I am a little concerned, but I can only hope that nothing happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: During the time that you were at his house during the summer, just in the normal course of things, there were times that you disrobed.
You took showers.
ANALISSA: Yes.
DR. PHIL: You changed clothes.
ANALISSA: Yes.
DR. PHIL: You used the bathroom facilities.
ANALISSA: Yes.
DR. PHIL: And, you now know that what you thought was privacy was not private at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Creepy. Back with Areva, Judy, Pat, and Brian. And, Judy, give us, again, the spectrum of this disorder. Brian alluded to it.
HO: So, pedophilia is defined as an intense sexual interest toward minors that either the person acts out upon because the sexual urge is so intense
it is kind of like a sexual orientation of sorts, or they have a lot of distress because they cannot act on it, because they know it is wrong.
That is very different from child molestation, because that is somebody who transgresses on a minor. But, there may or may not be that intense sexual
interest. So, basically, pedophilia, if it gets worse, they do become child molesters. Not all child molesters are pedophilia.
PINSKY: And, some are treatable, and some are just not.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do we blame Subway, because he is basically using Subway as a way to get to the younger kids?
PINSKY: Right. The middle school programs, the camps, Areva. Where do we get the Subway the responsibility?
MARTIN: That is an excellent question. He held himself out as a representative of Subway and there becomes this question. What does Subway
know, what should they have known and when did they know it?
And, I know in following this story there is some -- one of the individuals involved said that she made a report to Subway that this was happening.
So, I expect we are going to see some civil lawsuits against Subway. So, I think that is a --
PINSKY: Brian, you are an attorney and psychologist, do you agree with that?
MARTIN: I agree that Subway has culpability only to the extent that they knew or should have known and did not do enough about it.
PINSKY: Now, is it that one smoking gun that the woman who is taking these tapes tried to report it?
MARTIN: Well, that is definitely enough to get into civil courts and to start a lawsuit and to open up discovery, and to figure out more about what
Subway did know. I think there is a lot of information out there that has not come out in terms of this story.
PINSKY: Let me ask the control room, do I have enough time to get into this tape? -- OK. Let me show you this. This is him talking about his
middle school appearances and how they were opportunities to look for his preteen victims. This is lovely. It is fantastic. The content is
disturbing and this is also from Dr. Phil. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGLE: Yes, especially some of the middle school. I love middle school and that.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Girls are starting to (EXPLICIT WORD), you know.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Because, you know how much I love big (EXPLICIT WORD). You know I love huge (EXPLICIT WORD).
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh. Well --
FOGLE: Well, and they are ready. What is that?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Well, you know, kids are maturing faster nowadays.
FOGLE: I know, which I love. That is why I think it is wonderful with you, is that you are able to get in early. You know what I mean, you could
totally -- you know, you could totally win them over, which is what I love.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh. You like that?
FOGLE: I do love that.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Tell me -- will you have to tell me how to do that?
FOGLE: You know, just talk to them. Just get to know them. Just everything and just -- you know, do a little touchy feely things with them,
you know, make them feel good. And, a little more touchy, feely. A little more touchy feely, a little more touchy feely, and it is that kind of
stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. We have airsickness bags in the back of everybody is seats, everybody. Pat, it occurs to me that all of us are professionals at
one degree or another have been involved with these kinds of people.
We know they are out there. I do not think -- I think it is very important that people hear these tapes, so they understand how these people think.
Do you agree with that?
BULLARD: Oh, yes. I agree, but it is so repulsive. And, as a parent, it is so hard to listen to and sort of that imagination you have that people
are scheming and people are after my kids, they are.
PINSKY: Yes.
BULLARD: They are. Those guys are out there, and very high-profile people, low-profile, they are out there, and it is terrifying.
PINSKY: And, then I get to see them if they have the genes for addiction, the potential for addiction biologically, then they come to me later with
raging out of control severe addictions and mental health problems. It is -- the victims, that is.
BULLARD: Yes.
[21:45:00] PINSKY: It is a disaster that -- you know, it happens -- even if it happens to a limited extent, the effects on their brain and body are
of a lifetime. And, it is -- they are so unregulated. They are so shattered. They are so distrusting now. Entering closeness with other
humans, which we need, they cannot do that. They go to drugs and alcohol to fill that void.
Next up, a teacher yanks a chair from a student. Now, he lost his job, and a criminal investigation is launched. Take a look at that. We will be
back with that. And, reminder, like us on Facebook. It is DrDrewHLN. Help us reach 1 million likes. Like us on Facebook. See you in a minute.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix", where my guests tell me is trending on their Twitter, Facebook or Instagram feeds. Areva is first.
MARTIN: OK. So, there is another video of a student being aggressively handled in the classroom, but this one is a little tricky. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN (voice-over): So, we are at this middle school in Westhaven, Connecticut. A teacher was actually fired for the way he responded to an
unruly student. You see this is the teacher. This student refused to move. Apparently, he was cussing at the teacher and other students.
The teacher as you can see from video yanks the chair out from under the student causing the student to fall to the ground. Now, the teacher claims
that he had seen other teachers use this, quote/unquote, "Technique" --
PINSKY: Ooh!
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
MARTIN (voice-over): -- to get a student to stand up or to move. The teacher further explained himself -- he went on to NBC Connecticut and this
is what he said. He said, "I know you are not supposed to touch a student, OK? You just do not do that."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN (on camera): This teacher, though, was fired last week, and he is now being investigated by the police. He could face criminal charges.
PINSKY: Assault?
MARTIN: Yes. Assault. Possibly battery charges. I do not know about this one. This guy seemed to be pretty genuine about this technique. I am
not so sure he should be criminally charged. Obviously, not a good thing to do to get a student to move, though.
PINSKY: And, Judy is the only teacher amongst us here. And, she was, you know, saying that there are students are not respectful to authority these
days.
HO: No. And, he did not lay a hand on a student. I do not know. I am a little bit on that --
MARTIN: I do not know, but pulling the chair --
BULLARD: I mean there are two of the toughest jobs in the world, cops and teachers.
PINSKY: Yes, I know.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MARTIN: Add mothers to that.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, cops and teachers are also mothers.
BULLARD: Right.
PINSKY: Come on, now. Come on. They got the two toughest jobs.
MARTIN: We will watch this story and see, but hopefully no criminal charges.
PINSKY: Judy, what do you got?
HO: OK. Well, The holidays are upon us. So, it is time to stock up on those ugly sweaters for those parties. And, apparently, the newest Target
ugly sweater is insulting to some people.
They are making light of a condition, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, calling it Obsessive Christmas Disorder. And, there has been a variety of
different responses to this, Dr. Drew. Some people are saying, "Whatever, it is funny. I have OCD" --
PINSKY: Wait. I have OCD. And, we completely lost our sense of humor?
HO: Right. And, then some other people are saying this is not funny. Nobody is making fun of cancer, so why this disease? And, I have to say,
OCD is a lot more serious than a lot of people think.
It affects about 3 million people in the U.S. alone, and it is one of the least treatable diseases. It kind of goes on for the entire lifetime. It
is more common than schizophrenia than bipolar disorder. I mean it is a big disease, Dr. Drew.
HO: No, Judy, but the sweater is so pretty.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Not only that --
HO: It is one of the prettiest ugliest sweaters.
PINSKY: Not only that. OCD is a very common. It is associated with anxiety disorders.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: I got both. And, it can be an asset too.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: People with OCD --
HO: Hey! Exactly! If I can have a little bit of OCD, I would not be doing what I am doing.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: I want another doctor who has OCD just like you.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: That is what I want.
PINSKY: You are very obsessive about your details and things.
MARTIN: That undermines the claim that the sweater is offensive. You are saying OCD people have it going on.
PINSKY: That is what I am saying.
HO: Yes!
PINSKY: They are celebrating Obsessive Christmas Disorder, obsessive cross-dressing -- I do not know, what else? Whatever other C. Go ahead,
Pat.
BULLARD: I wish Starbucks would put that on their cups, I tell you that. Maybe we can enjoy a happy holiday. I am just kind of looking at some
things that have gone viral. One is John turns and says Pat is right. And the other --
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: By the way, Pat, to be clear, I do not think John Cardillo has ever said that about anybody.
BULLARD: Well, there you go. I am not sure it is the company I want to be in. What has happened to men? What is wrong with us? Look at this new
product. You tell me this is not acceptable. That is not a real bun. It is a fake bun. He has a fake bun on his head.
(LAUGHING)
HO: Man bun.
PINSKY: If you go to our -- is it -- is it on our Instagram account?
BULLARD: Look at that.
PINSKY: OK. We will be -- we are going to post a picture of me goofing around with it. Oh, look at --
BULLARD: There you go. There is Mike.
PINSKY: I steal a bun of another -- of a cameraman, who is sitting up at the top -- hi, Matt. I take his man bun, and I put it on my head.
HO: This is just a marketing gimmick.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: So, what has happened? I mean good thing, bad thing. We cannot see it yet.
HO: Oh, perfect.
PINSKY: Turns out --
BULLARD: There it is.
HO: There it is.
PINSKY: Oh, you guys.
BULLARD: I do not like the ones that move.
HO: It is pretty color matched.
PINSKY: We are having too much fun. We will be right back.
(LAUGHING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: It is time for my "Click Fix". You have got to see this video. We will give a little taste of it. It is an officer`s body cam that
captures an SUV barreling toward him at, at least 15 miles per hour. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Coming back around. Stop! Stop!
PINSKY (voice-over): The driver reportedly stole the SUV from a car dealership then intentionally -- there she is, and intentionally rammed the
officer`s car after realizing she could not exit a parking lot. Now, the officer suffered no serious injuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on camera): Let us show the tape again. The driver, of course, arrested, on multiple charges including DUI. One more time, Let us take a
look at that video, if we can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SIREN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop! Stop! -- Coming back around.
(SIREN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Craziness. Listen, I want to thank our panel, thank you audience. And I would like to offer a special salute to our veterans. We thank you
deeply for your service to our country.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
We do not take enough time to thank you, and today is the day that we do so. Please check out -- we have after show posted on Facebook. Follow us
on Instagram. And, again, let us all give thanks to those who serve our country. Good night, everybody.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
