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Dr. Drew
Race In America. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 30, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Welcome to our one-hour special. A live look at race in America. All of our panelists and
audience members are black and free to express themselves.
Let us begin with some incidents, which have been caught on video sparking some of the most heated debates. First was in Alabama, a man
stopped by police for seemingly doing no more than jogging while black. Take a look.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHIG)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH PRICE, TALLADEGA POLICE OFFICER: Where you going to?
COREY DICKERSON, AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE WHO WAS DETAINED MY WHITE POLICE: Nowhere in particular.
OFFICER PRICE: You got some I.D. on you?
DICKERSON: I do, but --
OFFICER PRICE: What is your name?
DICKERSON: Corey. Yes. Well, looks like I am about to get harassed.
OFFICER PRICE: Stand right here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Harassment or proper policing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Jogging while black does not give rise to reasonable suspicion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: The officers exercised incredible restraint.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SCREAMING)
ERIC CASEBOLT, MCKIEY POLICE: Get your (EXPLETIVE WORD) on the ground.
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Call m mama. Call my mama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get on the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Call my mama. Call my mama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: On your face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Shocking video of police restraining a bikini-clad teen hits YouTube, generating outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BYSTANDER: Why are you dragging her?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A homeless man with a prosthetic leg pinned to the ground by a group of cops. Excessive or appropriate?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHAEDRIA LABOUVIER, THE WOMAN WHO RECORDED THE INCIDENT: This is excessive force. This is white supremacy in action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S CO-HOST AT "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO: I have been around white supremacist. They do not look like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, HipHollywood.com; Crystal Wright, Conservative Commentator, ConservativeBlackChic.com; Segun
Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist; Rolonda Watts, Host of Podcast, "Sunday`s with Rolonda" and Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD retired, author of
"The Creation of a Manifesto: Black & Blue".
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Vanessa, first of all, straight me out here. It seems like for years, I was being schooled carefully to say African-American. Now, it is gone
back to black. I am fine with either. Black is OK?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I think it is a personal preference.
PINSKY: No. Do not give me personal preference.
BARNETT: No. There are some black people, if you call them African- American, they are insulted. But, then you have -- who does not want to be called African-American at all and she wants to be known just as black and
she is from every continent in Africa and does not know what she wants to be called.
So, I think it really is personal preference. For me, I am black. You do not have to get so technical. You are not stepping on toes if you
do not say African-American.
PINSKY: There is a little murmuring through the audience.
BARNETT: I am black.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: How about the audience, is it black?
BARNETT: I am black. It is fine. It is not a negative word. Black is not a negative word.
PINSKY: It is just for me, I need to straighten myself out. You guys got to help me here. I got to start with this at least for me to say it.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Well, I think it is simple, Dr. Drew. So, my parents are from Nigeria, right? I grew up most of my
life here in the United States. I consider myself African-American.
PINSKY: True.
ODUOLOWU: Still speak the language. My relatives, grandparents, everybody is back in Nigeria. So, I do not have a problem saying I am
African-American. What I would say to all black Americans are, "You can trace your lineage back further than a lot of white people who came over
during -- and are immigrants." So, why should you say African-American and separate yourself from a country that you seem to have more ownership than
the people that are keeping you from it?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: I like black.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well --
PINSKY: I have used that before. I prefer black but Crystal help me out.
WRIGHT: I think Segun is right. I think Vanessa is right. He is from -- he is an African, and he is also an American, that he calls himself
African-American.
PINSKY: Yes, but I have to say --
WRIGHT: I am a black American.
PINSKY: -- Russian-American, not --
WRIGHT: I am not from -- I cannot trace my lineage directly to Africa. I do not have a connection with Africa. I have a connection to
Richmond, Virginia. I have a connection in Washington, D.C. I am black. My handle says ConservativeBlackChick. People say, "Why do you call
yourself that? Because, I am all three things. Not one thing defines me.
Vanessa is right. She likes to be called black. But why do we have to debate this and why cannot you say what you are comfortable with? "Oh,
because your white. Somehow, Dr. Drew, cannot have an opinion about whether to call me black or A-A?" Come on!
PINSKY: Listen. I just want to --
WRIGHT: That is ridiculous
BARNETT: I think he is right on that.
WRIGHT: I am giving you permission.
BARNETT: If he feels like this is a sensible topic --
WRIGHT: I am not thinking that.
BARNETT: Absolutely. Because --
WRIGHT: Did we ask him if he wants to be called white --
PINSKY: Or Russian American.
WRIGHT: -- or Caucasian American?
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: Or Jewish American?
BARNETT: Because it has never been a debate.
WRIGHT: Right!
BARNETT: -- Because people have a preference and I think it is great that you want to ask the question.
ODUOLOWU: Yes. But, here is my thing about the preference.
PINSKY: That is my life. I like just -- I like the collegiality. I will do whatever.
ODUOLOWU: Preference aside. Preference aside. I always say what do you identify to?
[21:05:00] WRIGHT: Thank you.
ODUOLOWU: So, if you do not really identify to some specific African culture, you want to be a black American. Be a black American. If you
grew up in Harlem, Chicago, Jamaica --
PINSKY: Hang on.
ODUOLOWU: -- that is the other thing. Like if you are from Haiti, Jamaica, the Bahamas, Dominican Republic and you are black --
BARNETT: Yes. Absolutely.
ODUOLOWY: Are you now African-American? Do not lump us into a melting pot.
WRIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: Vanessa, remember when we were doing a trans gender show and you are trying to get the -- right there --
BARNETT: Oh Lord!
PINSKY: OK. Well, I do not want to have to go to stand there. Yes, sir.
BARNETT: Oh no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dr. Drew, you do not have to be the same color to be my brother.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, I am going to tell you that right now. Racism is an illness and a lot of people are just simply sick.
Once the world realizes that we are all just simply human beings --
WRIGHT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, then that is when a lot of things will be done.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Rolonda,you and I have a conversation once -- I think you and I had a conversation once, where we were sort of like, "Why do not we just
all just kind of chat about this?" And, you are like, "Please."
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "SUNDAY`S WITH ROLONDA" PODCAST: Yes, please. You know, I like that you are -- you are transparent. You have always been
that way, Dr. Drew, and I respect that. That is why I am here to applaud you.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
WATTS: But I like that, I wish more people who are non-colored or nonblack or nonwhatever, would ask more questions like, "Does it insult you
that I would ask if you are black?"
I think the word black has had such a horrific history, that we have claimed it as a beautiful part of culture. And, others are afraid because
of what we have done to that word, what we have done to the people of that word. So, yes, I understand my brother, that it is difficult to say should
I say that? But, please, call me black.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, you guys -- Yes, I will.
BARNETT: Thank you.
PINSKY: Underneath that, I think I have heard this from you before is, "Do not be afraid."
WATTS: Do not be afraid.
PINSKY: And, that is what I like. I am not afraid.
WATTS: And, do not be afraid of asking me questions, because we need the dialogue.
PINSKY: That is right. I am not afraid.
ODUOLOWU: Clearly, you are not afraid.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: No, I am not afraid.
ODUOLOWU: The lone white guy.
WATTS: You are the minority tonight.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: But, I find it weird when people are afraid. To me, that is weird. I understand you want to straighten it out, but why are you afraid?
Afraid of Rolonda or afraid of Sergeant Dorsey? Afraid of you, sir? Should I be afraid of you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dr. Drewm, it is simple.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: President Barack Obama is African- American.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: His beautiful wife, our first lady is black American. Like this brother here, President Obama can trace his
family back to Kenya.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Black American is a cultural thing.
WRIGHT: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: If your ancestor ain`t been through with the hell our people have been through, you ain`t like this
brother here, ain`t one of us. We are not saying it. Culturally, you are not one of us.
ODUOLOWU: I know what you are getting at.
WATTS: You are right.
PINSKY: OK. Thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Your folks ain`t been -- Barack Obama`s folks ain`t been through what our people went through. Michelle,
that is our sister.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Right. That already is clarifying for me. I did not get that distinction, first of all. I did not know that.
WRIGHT: Well, but it is unique.
PINSKY: I get it. I get it.
WRIGHT: Being a black American is different from being what Segun is, which is an African-American, because you cross between two worlds. And,
the I think the young man just now eloquently talked about we forget that Barack Obama is from Kenya. He is an American. This is a unique
perspective that he has. That is not -- and he was -- you know, that came up sometimes during the 2008 election. Remember? --
BARNETT: Dr. Drew --
WRIGHT: When I have congressional black caucus where like -- he is not black enough and that all. And, I think that was divisive. And, I
think that while we can celebrate differences, I do think when we try to have a discussion about black culture, it is bad to kind of start down the
slippery slope of "Black enough. You are not down. You are not my brother."
PINSKY: That is what we heard, though --
WRIGHT: No, no. I am not saying I heard that from the gentleman.
WATTS: But, I have friends from Tunisia --
PINSKY: Hold on. Rolonda.
WATTS: I have friends from Tunisia who tell me, "Ro, I am more African-American than you." And, you know, what? You are right." So,
tell me what does that mean from your point of view?
PINSKY: And?
WATTS: And, that is you need to have more of an appreciation in this country for the African culture, period.
ODUOLOWU: I disagree. I disagree, respectfully. I disagree. Like I said, and the gentleman said it perfectly. If my people have not been
through what your people have been through and I am here, it would be a shame for me to try and glom on or "Oh, you know what, we had a really bad
400 years ago." No, we did not.
What I would like to say and this goes to all black people watching and in attendance. Be proud of who you are. When you trace yourself back
to Texas, to Alabama, to South Carolina, North Carolina and what those people overcame so Barack Obama could be a president, that is amazing.
PINSKY: OK.
ODUOLOWU: Me being here with my passport is great, but it is only because other people died to make that possible. Be proud of that.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: OK. Here is what we are going to do. This is -- It has been a pretty pleasant conversations so far, but I want to get into the weeds of
some stuff we tend to talk about here. This is a little more difficult, which is some of the police versus African-Americans, black citizens and
just get into that a little bit.
Are we seeing a problem or if we want to keep it going down this path, I can continue as well. But I am going to show you a violent take on a 14-
year-old student in class. This has been airing on our network and on CNN. You have all seen this a million times. So, is race a factor here or just
bad policing? Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): The killing of Michael Brown by Ferguson Missouri Police Officer, Darren Wilson, was the flash
point for weeks of riots.
(SCREAMING)
The city of Baltimore erupts after the death of Freddy Gray. A black suspect in police custody, who died from injuries he got while riding
unrestrained in the back of a police van.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST OF "NEW DAY" PROGRAM: The funeral of Freddie Gray marked the worst days of rioting since the `60s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE`S MAYOR: This is one of our darkest days as a city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: National Guard troops and waves of cops fanning out. Brazen standoffs between masked men on both sides, hurling anything they could,
even crude explosives, at cops. Police cruisers and neighborhood cars on fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[21:15:05] PINSKY: Welcome back to our episode we are calling, "Race in America." Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, these are cases that triggered
debates. I am back with Vanessa, Crystal, Segun, Rolonda, and our studio audience. Thank you for joining us.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
A South Carolina School Resource Officer aggressively grabs a student. We saw it before the break. Take a look at this now.
BEN FIELDS, SOUTH CAROLINA SHERIFF: Hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.
Hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, am I missing something here? Is this bad policing?
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD RETIRED: Listen, this is over the top. This is outrageous. This was about punishment. This was about, "You did
not do what I told you to do, which is come here and get up out of that a seat, and so now there is a price to pay. I am going to punish you."
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: It feels like every time we have had that conversation with things that have gone bad. That has been one of the core sort of feelings
we get from the police officers, whether they are dealing with a white kid or a black kid, right?
SERGEANT DORSEY: Right. And, you know, I can take race totally out of the picture. This is an officer who is drunk with power. This is
someone who has been accustomed to do this kind of thing.
And, the police department minimizes and mitigates that bad behavior. There is no consequence for those kinds of activities. And, so, this is
not the first time, he has put hands on a student. This is the first time we are seeing it.
ODUOLOWU: Officer Cheryl, can I do you one better? That is a man on a little girl.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
ODUOLOWU: So, forget -- forget color. That is a grown man and if you read his bio, he is a power lifter. He is doing that to a young girl.
That is abuse. Forget color for just one second and I do not like to do that, but he is overturning and dragging a little girl out of a classroom.
That is horrible.
PINSKY: OK. Let me -- I am going to show Cheryl another piece of policing. I think you will feel sort of the same phenomena. It is a party
in a neighborhood pool. It had been advertised on social media. It got out of hand. Cops called.
It was not a good situation. I understand. But a cell phone video caught this officer taking down a 15-year-old girl in a bikini. And,
Crystal, I do not know if you were in the conversation we had about this one, but it seemed -- I mean yes, this was a chaotic situation.
This guy had come -- we heard stories about how this guy come from a terrible situation. He had just been in a suicide or something. He was
helping out a family, who was grieving and then runs into this. And, he got out of hand.
WRIGHT: Yes. This is a suburb, McKinley, Texas -- I forgot where it was. But, there are two sides of the story. When I saw the video, I think
it came out this summer, it was excessive force on this young woman. She was not doing anything. He slams her on the concrete, roughed her up just
like we saw with the young girl in the classroom.
But we also know a DJ advertised that there was going to be this huge pool party in a public pool in a closed subdivision, and other accounts
say that the teens -- the black teens were -- and the white teens were getting out of control. Neighbors asked them to leave the public pool.
They did not have permission to be there.
The DJ said it was like a rave, right? They just -- he said, "Show up, we are going to have a party." All I am saying is that was wrong, but
the problem with these cell phone videos is they happen out of context. OK? So, a video was taken. It goes viral. We do not know all the
circumstances.
Again, I am not -- yes, we do not. Just like with Michael Brown, and then we jump to platitudes and we say, "How many videos do you think are
out there where young white kids are being mistreated by police and we never going to see?" But, we jump to -- when we say, "Oh, this is all
about cops going out, hunting down black kids." That is not true. These are isolated incidences.
PINSKY: All right.
WRIGHT: And, we can talk about it -- If we really want to get -- if you really --
PINSKY: Let me hear from the audience, right here.
WRIGHT: when are we going to really talk about crime and race?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
PAULINE VIOLET (ph), AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Pauline Violet.
PINSKY: Hi, Pauline.
VIOLET: And, first off, I really want to say you know, I grew up in Illinois. It was like this nightmare pill. All my life, I am an African-
American, growing up seeing this deep seeded hate against black and white and I am like, look --
PINSKY: Black and white.
VIOLET: Black and white. When you grow up in an African-American or black family, it is like "Oh, you better watch over those white folks. You
better get up --" When you grow up in a white family, we do not know what is going on. Some like, "Can we get some dialogue going?" Share some
culture. So, that we can get to the real solution. Because --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
WRIGHT: There is no white people in this audience. There is no white people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But what I am saying is this is a --
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- this is a hate --
WRIGHT: Dr. Drew is the only white man. Come on.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a deep seeded hate. It is like the world has taken a nightmare pill. It is like everything you
see, it is black on white crime, white on black crime. --
WRIGHT: Because what I am seeing is --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We need to get to the solution. You know, because if I get cut and if another person is Caucasian gets cut,
guess what? It is blood.
PINSKY: Yes, I get you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is blood! So, we need some healing.
[21:20:00] WRIGHT: This is a one-sided racial discussion. It really bothers me.
ODUOLOWU: I do not think it is.
WRIGHT: Yes, it is.
ODUOLOWU: I really do not.
PINSKY: Crystal, I cannot win. We are going to do --
WRIGHT: How are we talking about race in America when we only -- like that young woman just said, did not you just get up and tell me that
when you grew up in Illinois, the problem was you had these -- you are running off stereotypes, because white and black people do not sit down and
have honest discussion.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: But, so often our voice does not even heard.
WRIGHT: Right. All black people.
BARNETT: We need a full room.
WRIGHT: We are not talking of white people.
BARNETT: Sometimes -- it is so often, our voices are not even heard.
WRIGHT: That is the problem.
BARNETT: And, the media is so inundated, but with just one solitary white voice that is speaking for all of us and it is not fair.
WRIGHT: Now --
BARNETT: It is not fair. So, yes, let us have our people because we do not even agree --
WRIGHT: Our people? I am not your people.
BARNETT: So, let us have a rule full of black people --
WRIGHT: Yes, I did not grow up the same with you grew up.
BARNETT: We did not. And, that is exactly why this room needs to have this --
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: So, right. I mean I am not going to argue.
PINSKY: Guys.
BARNETT: So, we can talk about our differences as well.
WRIGHT: I am not --
BARNETT: We are not monolithic.
PINSKY: Slow down.
WRIGHT: I am not a black -- It is like --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Hang on. Listen, the idea was we could do it again. Let us just get -- that was one of the options. I thought if I will get two --
WRIGHT: I get it.
PINSKY: I would not hear from the problems are. I want to hear the issue.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: But, Dr. Drew -- I think what we are missing -- I think what everybody is missing is what we are doing is asking questions.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: And, we are asking questions and we are all trying to find a solution. Again, take race out of that incident in Texas.
BARNETT: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: It is man on a girl.
BARNETT: A grown man. It is a girl.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
ODUOLOWU: So, if you are talking about -- if you are talking about -- if you are talking about deep-rooted fear between blacks and whites, that
is a man on a girl.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: Now, what we should really be talking about is, is why he felt that that was OK to do to a black girl. Because you want to talk
about cell phone videos, I am all for white kids taking videos of white cops beating up white kids and doing White Lives Matter, but this --
WRIGHT: Why are you yelling?
ODUOLOWU: But, until -- but this is not me yelling. This is not me yelling.
WRIGHT: It is not?
BARNETT: That is passionate.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Sergeant Dorsey.
ODUOLOWU: This is passionate --
SERGEANT DORSEY: I will tell you why he felt comfortable doing that. Because here is the problem, there is no accountability. When there is no
consequence --
PINSKY: But, now there is the camera.
SERGEANT DORSEY: When there is no consequence for that circumstance, understand that this Officer Eric Casebolt had been on three police
departments before McKinney. He was a Texas State Trooper.
He was an Oklahoma City Police Officer before he came to McKinney. When police officers move from division, department to department, like NBA
players change teams, it is because there is a problem.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
WATTS: Here is the other concern, Dr. Drew.
PISKY: Wait. Wait. Wait. Rolonda, Rolonda, I got to go to break. I want you to help me. I look at you, help me make sense with this.
WATTS: Well, here is one of the concerns I think that many people have.
PINSKY: OK.
WATTS: When we look at that picture as the black community, we see our daughter. We see our nieces. We see our mothers. We are not quite
sure what that man saw when he looked at that little girl, but I do not think he saw his daughter and his niece, so it makes us think that we are
looked at differently as citizens and as human beings. And, based upon the evidence that keeps surmounting, I think that is a logical conclusion --
PINSKY: That is makes me sad. Because I see --
WRIGHT: Right. It makes you terrified.
PINSKY: But, here is the deal. I see your daughters and nieces, too. And it is --
WATTS: But you are a different man. You are not dragging me out of the chair across the room.
PINSKY: I am not --
(LAUGHING)
WATTS: You are sitting there having a decent, humane conversation with me and what we discover every day is that we are more alike than we
are not alike. Every single day we have this conversation.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: OK. I have to go to break. OK. But, I got a whole other topic coming up here. Just real quick. Real quick because I am switching
topics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: America is addicted to these videos. They want to see these videos over and over again as much you say
you do not to see these videos. We are not being objective about these situations. In New York City, police officer was shot and killed and we
are watching the security video.
PINSKY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: This guy over and over again do this, over and over again on a reel. That police officer is somebody`s
son, somebody`s --
WRIGHT: Husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- you know, husband.
WRIGHT: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, he was doing what he was supposed to do as an officer.
WRIGHT: You know, cops lives do not matte, do not you know?
PINSKY: No. Wait, wait. Hold on -- I got to go to break. However, if you will give me the camera for a second. The point is well taken and I
can imagine how other people in the countries looking at us, looking at these tapes over and over, think about us. I mean try to put that hat off
for a second, too. Somebody looking at us from the outside would think, "What is wrong with that country?"
Next up, we are going to confront the "N" word. I want to get into it. President of the United States used it. Don Lemon used it. He will
join us after the break.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:24:30] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST OF "CNN TONIGHT" PROGRAM: Does this offend you? It is a confederate flag. Is it a symbol of southern pride or a symbol of
hate?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Critics say the president using the "N" word in this interview, it gives the word even more power.
REGGIE LOVE, PRESIDENT OBAMA`S FORMER BODY MAN: If it were a powerless word, we would not be having this conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WRIGHT: The "N" word white people do not have permission to say it or have a discussion about it. Can I say (EXPLETIVE WORD) on the air? I just
did. OK. I will probably got in trouble for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA BRAZILE, LONGTIME CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That is the word that is used to dehumanize my father, my grandfathers, my mother, my grandmothers. So,
we were told never to use that word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Does this offend you, this word? President Obama said it out loud in an interview and a lot of people are shocked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Indeed, the president and Don Lemon right there were comfortable using the word. But, I am not going to be using it, unless you
convince me otherwise. I personally --
WATTS: We are not going to convince you to use that word, Dr. Drew.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. That is fine. That is fine. Other people are entitled to use it as they wish, but let us not be gratuitous about this. It is a
word packed with emotion no matter how you cut it, Crystal, right? I know you had a reaction when you said it on the show. OK. All right.
WRIGHT: You are right.
PINSKY: Discuss its impact. Back with Vanessa, Crystal, Segun and Rolonda and joining me, CNN anchor, Don Lemon, host of CNN Tonight. And,
Don, you took some heat for holding up the "N" word and saying it.
WATTS: A lot.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, you know -- let me ask this. Did you learn anything from that experience and is it ever acceptable to use this word?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST OF "CNN TONIGHT" PROGRAM: Yes, it is acceptable to use the word. Personally, I hate the word. I do not like using the
word. I think that we have bastardized the word in a way that we should not have. I think that word has so much impact.
[21:30:04] It was the last word that many people heard, but if the president of the United States says the word, then I think as a journalist
I should be able to say this well. Because if he did not say it, then we would not be covering the story. So, if the president says it in an
interview, then why cannot we show the word.
The news is not -- this is not "Sesame Street." This is not people talking to their kids and said this is what you pee-pee. This is where you
poo-poo. This is where -- That word has a huge impact.
And, if you use it, you should realize the impact of that word. Did I learn anything? Yes, I learned that people are sometimes overly sensitive
and that they have double standards. Many people have double standards about using that word.
WRIGHT: Yes. Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: What is the double standard?
LEMON: Because I did the same exact thing, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: Two years before when I did the "N" word special, I held that word up, I held many other derogative terms up on cue cards, nobody said a
word.
WRIGHT: Right.
LEMON: As a matter of fact, I got commended for doing it.
PINSKY: I want to get something from the audience here. Yes, ma`am, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I honestly have to say that the word and the meaning has changed. When I grew up as a child, the word in
the dictionary meant ignorant. It referenced ignorant. Over time, Webster has changed the meaning based on how it is used in society. And, it has
been used toward African-American, black and that is how it is used.
Whites, blacks, I have heard everybody of every nationality used the word. The word has no power if you do not allow it to have the power and
we allow it to have a power as a people and so, therefore, it holds a power over us.
You can use the word toward me, but I do not know I am not ignorant and I know I am not the definition of that word. So, therefore I do not
allow it to be and hold me down.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let us talk to my panelist about the president. You guys, can we play the recording of the president? OK. I am going give you. I
am just going to play the recording what President Obama said to my friend, Marc Maron, on his podcast and he took a lot of heat for this. Well, let
us just hear what he said. Let us get all this up and then we will keep this conversation going. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC MARON, PODCAST HOST/AMERICAN STAND-UP COMEDIAN: Racism.
PRES. BARACK OBAMA, CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Racism. We are not cured of, clearly. And, it is not just a matter of it
is not being polite to say nigger in public. That is not the measure of whether racism still exist or not. It is not just a matter of overt
discrimination. Societies do not overnight completely erase everything that happened two to 300 years prior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: When they show that in context, I see why he used the word, but based on what the lady said before, I
disagree with that. I do not care what the word is being use for now. And, especially in rap music. So, now, you are taking it so that another
generation is going to keep using the word, and, "Oh, it is cool. We are using it."
No, it is not, you are telling your friend off and you do not even realize it. And, I moved here from New York, so I am on the bus and I am
listening to people who came here on the plane, they are not black, but they are calling everybody in the back of the bus the word.
And, I literally had to stop myself from snatching this little boy up, because he did not even know the value of the word. His family was not
here to go through a civil rights struggle, but he is using that word and taking ownership of it.
PINSKY: Got it .
LEMON: I hear it all the time in public. I hear it all the time in public. I hear it on the subway.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right.
LEMON: I hear it on buses. I hear it everywhere, Dr. Drew. And, that was part of the reason that I wanted -- the first time we did this,
the "N" word special. I hear people calling their kids that on the streets here in New York City.
WRIGHT: And it is black -- right. And, Don is right. I am sorry, Don. But you know, I remember when you talked about this and you talked
about moving to Harlem and I think you talked about seeing a black woman, talked to her kid and say, "Hey, you little nigger," right? And, I have
seen it. Like the young lady --
LEMON: "Stop all that damn crying. You act like an old ass man."
WRIGHT: Right.
LEMON: And, she called the "N" word.
WRIGHT: Right.
LEMON: And, I was like -- I was shocked. The little boy was in tears --
WRIGHT: And, that is how we --
LEMON: And, I am like walking down the street.
WRIGHT: Predominantly, that is -- When I have seen the "N" word used by -- it has been predominantly overwhelmingly by blacks to other blacks,
either in rap music, young black women and men calling their children little "N."
And, let me tell you a story. When I was in grade school, I came home. I looked at my little brother and I said, "You little "N." My mom
pulled me aside. She said I learned it. I did not learn it from the white kids on the playground. I learned it from the black kids.
She told me, "Do not you ever call your little brother that. That is the worst in life you could ever call your little brother." And, she
explained it to me. I do not remember it. She told me about it, but is not it interesting that like Don said, -- it is OK for black people to use
the word. It is prolific in rap music --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: Nobody condemn that.
WRIGHT: Nobody -- But yet, when we talk about it, we cannot even -- why cannot Dr. Drew talk about it in its contents?
PINSKY: We are talking about it, but my question to Don is, do you think -- It is so interesting to me, because not being black, not being
emerged from the culture, the fact that parents would use that to their kids to me is --
WRIGHT: Outrageous in that context.
BARNETT: It is ignorant in that context, but I have seen it done --
PINSKY: I am curious --
LEMON: It is outrageous.
PINSKY: It is outrageous but it is curious and it makes me wonder, you know, we do a lot of talking about trauma being transmitted from one
generation to the next, is that word one of the vehicles of the transmission of the trauma of the past?
[21:35:04] LEMON: Yes. Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew, you are so smart. I forgot the author. She calls it "Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder." We have
these conversations -- I forget who the author is. But, I find that -- Listen, I grew up in the south in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
I remember the first time that I was called the "N" word, it was by a white person as a kid. And, I remember also it happening in high school,
maybe college. I have not been called that word by a white person in decades. But I have been called that word and plenty worse things by
people of my own race just today.
WRIGHT : Right.
BARNETT: And, you know what they mean when they say it.
WRIGHT: What is the different meaning.
BARNETT: I will be very honest. I said it to friends.
LEMON: Oh, it is not always positive. It is usually not positive.
PINSKY: What does it mean?
BARNETT: Exactly.
WRIGHT: What does it mean?
BARNETT: That is why they are saying it to Don --
PINSKY: What does it mean?
BARNETT: When someone says it to Don, very often, and they are saying it in an angry way, they are saying the literal definition of the "N" word.
WRIGHT: Which is wrong.
BARNETT: Don, believe that you are ignorant and X, Y and Z.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
WRIGHT: And, you are saying it to your friends --
BARNETT: They believe that. But, then in my personal opinion --
WRIGHT: Do you want your daughters to grow up, talking like that.
BARNETT: I would never say it to my daughter and I do not say around my daughter.
WRIGHT: But you said you say it to your friends.
BARNETT: That is like other curse words and things of that nature. If she chooses to say it in the future, for whatever reason that is on her.
I would never say it to my child, but I am not going to sit on the stage and lie.
I have said it to friends and do not mean it in a negative way, just as I would call my home girl a "B" or whatever like that. They have seen
it that way and to go back to your other point, there should not be a white person on the planet who wants to say it. Why do not they you want to say
it?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDINJG)
WRIGHT: Because white people --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: They said it enough, I think.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yes. I got to step up. Camera here please. Obviously, we expect this to be a conversation. I am glad to have this conversation, but
I have to go to a commercial break. So, Don, hang in there, buddy. I am going to be right back with you, and we are going to talk about this word.
I want the audience member back after -- as soon as I get back.
We are going to talk about this word that we are beginning to focus in on as the vehicle. This word is the vehicle of so much transmission of
trauma and awfulness, a disgusting. What is the word? Help me describe it.
LEMON: Difference.
PINSKY: No. It is worse. It is transmitting something simple from generation to generation, and we are allowing it to. Back after the break.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:41:20] LEMON: We should not sanitize that word by saying this person called such an such the "N" word. No, that person did not call that
person the "N" word. That person called -- Sunny, I know you are going to get upset. That person called you or that person a "Nigger." They did not
say the "N" word.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I cannot believe, Don --
LEMON: As journalist -- as journalist, we are --
HOSTIN: -- that you as an African-American man, are going to use that word.
LEMON: Of course because -- because we are using it --
HOSTIN: Words matter and you should know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I wish people would not call each other that way.
HOSTIN: But you are uttering it yourself.
LEMON: But -- But I am not calling someone the word. I am a journalist. I am supposed to use the word. We are supposed to tell the
truth.
(LAUGHING)
HOSTIN: I mean are you kidding me?
LEMON: We are not supposed to sanitize it.
HOSTIN: Oh my goodness.
LEMON: You are sanitizing it by using it.
HOSTIN: Wow.
LEMON: By saying that.
HOSTIN: Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are back. We are discussing "Race in America." We are discussing the use of the "N" word. I am back with Vanessa, Chrystal,
Segun, Don Lemon and Rolonda. And, Don, I love me some Sunny Hostin, and poor girl.
LEMON: We are like sister and brother, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: We fight like sister and brother. And, what people do not realize is that after we are on T.V., and we do that, either I go in the
studio she is in or she comes in the studio that I am in, and we discuss it. She goes, "Oh, my gosh! That is going to blow up or whatever."
(LAUGHING)
But, wait, I mean we actually do, we go back and forth, but just because Sunny and I disagree, it does not mean that we do not like each
other.
PINSKY: Right. And, not only that --
LEMON: We love each other. We just disagree on those issues.
PINSKY: Right. And, it is this whole phenomenon that we are all afraid on walking on eggshells and that is where that is got to stop,
right? I mean do not you think, Don?
LEMON: Yes.
PINSKY: And, as you were trying to say to Sunny, which is "I am not empowering the word. I am using it as a journalist. But if I cannot even
do that, then you are empowering the word," right?
LEMON: Yes. I want people to make up their minds about using this word, because when I said that I do not like to use the word, then they
call me all kinds of names that you do not want to hear, because I am telling black people what to do -- use the word.
WATTS: Wait. Wait. And, I --
PINSKY: Hang on a second, Don.
LEMON: Then when I use the word, then they call me all kinds of names because I am using the word. I am like -- I do not know which one I am
supposed to do. I really do think --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You should know -- I started the show by saying I got to get straighten on stuff. I feel you. A lot of stuff -- But the point is not
to shrink from it, not to be afraid of it. Rolonda.
WATTS: But, I am with -- Don Lemon, and you know I love me some Don.
(LAUGHING)
LEMON: And, love me some Rolonda.
WATTS: Really.
LEMON: You look good, girl.
WATTS: Thank you, baby. Talk to you after the show.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
LEMON: Guacamole -- Look at Rolonda. My gosh!
(LAUGHING)
WATTS: Don, now, you are making me blush. But, listen --
PINSKY: All right.
WATTS: Even being a journalist for 35 years, Don, you and I are going to disagree on this too. I cannot use the word. I remember growing up in
North Carolina in the segregated south in the `60s, and the only time I was ever able to fight as a little girl, my mother and father told me if
anybody ever called you the "N" word, you ball up your fists an you beat the crap out of them. They did not say it that way, but either that --
that is the passing on the trauma. That is the passing on of their trauma.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: But, Rolonda -- you know, it is very rare that I agree with Don, but I think that is a little stilted argument. And, I agree with Don
100 percent here. As a journalist, it is appropriate to use the word if quoting it accurately. But, you said if somebody called you that -- grown
up as a little girl, that gave you the right to fight, but I am sure you have been around black people that have used the word and you have not
balled your fists up.
WATTS: No, but it would not be used in a sentence --
ODUOLOWU: No. But, here is the thing --
WATTS: Now, listen.
ODUOLOWU: But, here is the thing --
WATTS: I will be totally transparent here.
LEMON: But, Rolonda sometimes it is.
ODUOLOWU: Come on. Let us be honest.
WATTS: They use it endearingly --
LEMON: When we call people -- when you call people the "N" word -- when could use that word, the "N" word, and I will always say that word out
loud.
PINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: When we call people the "N" word, when we call people "Uncle Tom, we call people "Coon," that all has the same mean. It is the same
negative connotations.
PINSKY : Right.
WRIGHT: Right.
ODUOLOWU: Absolutely.
LEMON: I cannot believe that we do that to each other. If someone calls me the "N" word or calls me "Uncle Tom," or calls me "Uncle Tom" or
calls me -- I go, "Is that all you really have? Is that how weak and how ignorant your argument is that you have to resort to calling people names?"
It is like a white person calling me the "N" word. You just laugh and go, "OK, that is all you got? Then you are just ignorant and stupid."
[21:45:10] PINSKY: Ok. I got to get to some audience here. Yes, ma`am. Then, I want to hear Rolonda, you are saying you want to be
transparent. I want to hear what that is.
WATTS: Good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I come from a mixed background. My dad is from panama. My step mom is Lebanese and Caucasian. And, they
have always told me, "If anybody calls you the "N" word, you have right to fight. You have the right to actually stand up for yourself, because that
is not right for them to call you that word."
In the same respect, currently, I live with a white girl and her boyfriend, who is black. And, on occasion, she will call him the "N" word
endearingly.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: So confusing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly. And, I will hear them, "I will be in the kitchen or the bathroom." And just go, "Whoa! What?
Why are they having this conversation?" I have talked to both of them about it, equally. He says he does not care, and she is just like, "Oh, I
just mean it endearingly." I am like, the minute you call me an "N" word, we are going to be in a fight.
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Sister, you need to move. You need to move now, girl. Move. Move to a new apartment.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Rolonda, I think what I -- I have run out of time. And, Don, if I do not have a chance to say good-bye to you, I want to thank you so
much for being a part of this and really being at the core of this conversation about the word and meaning.
And, I think -- For me, I learned about this intergenerational transmition of trauma through language, which I was not sure was possible
and tonight, I am convinced it is. And, that is -- I am coming away thinking, "Oh, no! This word -- we need to stop this word."
WATTS: Yes.
LEMON: Can I do a shameless plug, Dr. Drew?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead.
LEMON: Because, you know, I had you on to talk about this as well, so make sure you tune in to "CNN Tonight" on CNN at 10:00 P.M. Eastern. And,
we will have these conversations all the time. We are going to talk about the student down in South Carolina and we have race discussions all the
time. Very openly.
PINSKY: Absolutely. And, as we do here, too, on this show. That is why I wanted to put this together tonight. But, anyway, thank you, Don. I
really appreciate you being here right here. You are our key player tonight. I will just go to break. I will get your comment in just a
second, Rolonda. Thank you, Don. We will see you in just a second. Be back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:51:10] JAY-Z, RAPPER: People give words power.
OPRAH WINPHREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Yes.
JAY-Z: And, for our generation, what we did was we took the word and we took the power out of that word.
WINPHREY: Yes.
JAY-Z: You know, we took a word that was very ugly and hurtful into a term of endearment.
WINPHREY: There was a generation before me that thought for civil rights and that word carries such a sense of hatred and degradation. And,
I always think about when I hear the word -- even when I am at a concert and people are, you know, screaming it at your concert, I think about black
men who were lynched and that is the last word they heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jay-Z and Oprah describing -- or conflicting around this word in 2009. I am back with my guests. Rolonda, you wanted to make
a comment here.
(LAUGHING)
WATTS: I was just going to say that coming up in my own experience, at a time when you could not imagine a white kid saying that, unless they
were just some red neck some place there.
And, how we took that word, I must admit, it was a word I said among my black friends. It was a way of endearment. "You know, you are my -- if
you do not get no bigger." You know, it was all that kind of -- you know what I am saying?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
That is right. It was that love thing. That is why we loved up on each other. And, then as I have grown myself, I have had to stop that
myself. I have my black friends, who say do not say that word anymore to me.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
WATTS: Like my girlfriends, they do not call me a big "B" anymore. Because we have to say -- you know, it is not what you are called is what
you answer to. And, a lot of people are saying, "I do not want that in my life anymore. It is too difficult." So, we had not even learned to stop
the endearment of the phrase. But, we did take that phrase and we loved up on it because it ate it us so much.
BARNETT: And, I am still in that area. I have not grown there yet, maybe I will, maybe I will not. And, I am telling you, I have said it to
you before, for me it is not -- I am still there. My girlfriend says it to me. I am not going to stop and say, "Oh, girl! No, you did not just call
me that." I will not do that.
ODUOLOWU: What if she was a white girl?
PINSKY: Hold on.
ODUOLOWU: And, I think if a lot of people are -- I think a lot of people in this audience, they are 110 percent honest, they may still be in
that space, too. And, that is OK. If we are not there, if we are not on the run to road yet, maybe I will, maybe I will not. But, to tell me that
I should feel some sort of trauma with this word when I do not.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Crystal. Crystal.
WRIGHT: OK. I have not -- I think when it comes to the "N" word, blacks have no credibility on who can say it and who cannot, when we use it
with impunity to one another. We just heard Rolonda and Vanessa talking about how I use it -- you know, I used you know as a form of endearment.
It is not endearing. It is not endearing when Jay-Z puts it in his lyrics to rap.
We are standing on quicksand. We have no credibility as black people when we use it daily. It is part of our culture, and I agree with Segun.
You know, if a black person -- if you can say it to your girlfriend, if people can say, "Hey, my N, how you doing, my N?" Dr. Drew should be able
to say it. I think --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: No. These people --
WRIGHT: OK, I did not talk over you. I did not talk over you.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: So, what I am saying is --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
WRIGHT: We have no credibility on that subject.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: On some degree about that, because the fact to the matter is --
PINSKY: If you guys do not listen to me, I cannot run a show. I am sorry. I just cannot do it. So, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The fact to the matter is whatever we say goes because black people are builders of culture.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Our culture for me, it is the world.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, whatever we say is OK. It is what the world is going to follow. So, if our music embraces the term,
other cultures are going to use it and run with it because we say it is OK.
WRIGHT: I do not say it is OK.
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly. If we say it is not OK, it will be.
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew, that is the fundamental basis. If black people want to say it is OK to say, then a white person saying it to you should
not stiffen your back up and you get mad. So, it got to change.
WRIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: I think black people are mad when white people tell them that they cannot say it.
PINSKY: I have to go to commercial break. I am sorry, guys. I cannot let us endlessly. We have to go to break. Be right back.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:54:54] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The unfortunate thing about this program is that it is a television show, and so I have to cut people off. We have to go to
commercial. We have all kinds of great conversation going on here and we will keep this going. We will do this again.
There will be more than a part two, I suspect. I will take Crystal`s lead and I will bring some other -- we will integrate this a little bit
next time. It will be even harder for me to control, but I am ready to do that now. I want to thank you for the privilege of allowing me to do this.
I want to thank each of you, personally. I want to say, thank you.
WATTS: Great job, Dr. Drew.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
Thank you very, very much. Thank you, audience. Thank you guys for being here. Again, I think it has been a very important conversation.
Something that -- yes, you guys are great. Thank you for standing up. One of my skeptics is standing up. He was sitting before the show. He is like
"We will see how this goes." So, I think we did a pretty good job. I will see you next show.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
