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Dr. Drew
The Husband And Wife Killers Of 14 People In San Bernardino Had Amassed An Arsenal Of Guns, Ammunition, Bombs; Sources Say That Syed Farook Apparently Had Been Radicalized And In Contact With Known Terrorists; 14 Dead, 21 Injured In Shooting Rampage
Aired December 03, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:13] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: We are live with breaking news. The husband and wife killers of 14 people in San Bernardino had
amassed an arsenal of guns, ammunition, bombs. And, tonight, sources say that Syed Farook apparently had been radicalized and in contact with known
terrorists. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: we are at San Bernardino and Shedeen. I see one guy down. There is one guy -- in the back of a car. Going to need
that Bearcat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE GUNMAN: Are you ready? If you are not cool, I am not walking them dude.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thank you. Thank you. Try to relax, everyone. Try to relax. I will take a bullet before you do. That is for
damn sure. Just be cool, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (1): We have the suspects` vehicle stopped. We can go ahead and extract it. We could standby. Wait for the bearcat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Copy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): Right now, we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You can see tactical teams moving up the sidewalk, looking for positions of advantage right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Look at all the bullet holes in the windshield, the left side, driver`s side completely blown out. This was a
very, very graphic shootout here. The suspect, they can be pretty sure is down in the middle of the street. He is down and he is not moving, more
than likely deceased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, author of "Messages for Joey." Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Legal Bloom
Firm, also legal analyst for Avvo.com. Kurt Schlichter, Attorney, retired army colonel and conservative commentator.
Areva Martin, Attorney and legal analyst, and Evy Poumpouras, our former special agent secret service, security expert. And, finally Dan
Simon, CNN Correspondent in San Bernardino. Dan, give us the latest. I understand there is just a press conference, what do we now know?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Drew. I could tell you that authorities say they found an incredible amount of ammunition in that
getaway SUV. And, what they also found inside the suspect`s house is staggering, as well. Thousands of rounds of ammunition, as well as pipe
bombs.
And, what the FBI says when you add it all up, the bullets and the bombs, it suggests that this had been planned way in advance. In terms of
trying to discern a motive, there is no manifesto here. There is no letter. So, trying to figure out exactly why these people wanted to
inflict so much pain, so much carnage in this community is difficult to understand.
What we do know is that authorities are trying to determine if, in fact, these people had been radicalized. We know that the husband had made
trips over to the Middle East. We know that investigators, the FBI is looking to see what connections he may have had to possible terrorists.
So, that is really where things stand with respect to the investigation, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Dan. "If he had been radicalized?" I am a little disturbed by that. I mean I understand we need to collect the absolute
facts, but Kurt, "If he had been radicalized?"
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes.
PINSKY: He had in contact with local terrorists, he is -- I do not understand, why is that a question?
SCHLICHTER: Well, you know, if he walks like a Jihadi and shoots like a Jihadi, he is probably a Jihadi.
PINSKY: Lisa?
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER: You know, I want to hear all the facts. That is probably right, but I just want to hear all of the facts.
You know, I am thinking, maybe we need to redefine terrorism, because we are all asking, "Is it terrorism?" I mean it used to be that terrorists
had a specific political agenda that they put out there. That did not happen here.
PINSKY: No. Wait minute, I heard during the French assault, there was a war. There had been tiny cells operating independently all over the
world. Here they come. Here they come. Why is that a question about whether that is a radicalization or not?
BLOOM: OK. Maybe, but he does not really even know -- I mean, I just think -- Listen. He probably is, I agree. I just think it is very
strange. It almost seems like just his act of rage and anger and nihilism more than some kin d of a political agenda.
PINSKY: I know -- wait a minute, I leave the party and come back in armor and I come back with assault weapons? That is a carefully planned
process. No, Danine?
BLOOM: Yes.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Do I think this is terrorism? Yes, I do. Do I think that this was the object of what they were trying to
attack? No, I do not.
PINSKY: Oh.
MANETTE: I honestly think, because they have a huge New Year`s Eve celebration in San Bernardino, and it is called Countdown New Year`s Eve.
And, there are going to be thousands and thousands of people there at the end of the month and they are sold out. And, I honestly think with the
amount of ammunition and the amount of preparation they had, my personal opinion is that they were targeting that event.
PINSKY: And, somehow some --
MANETTE: And, somehow or another, this became a workplace anger thing and he decided, "You know, what? To hell with it. I am just going to go
out there."
PINSKY: I have heard theories about a hybrid of terrorism meets workplace issue. Here is what an FBI Special Agent, Navy S.E.A.L. said
about what we have to do in order to understand all this. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT AND NAVY S.E.A.L.: What we have is a mindset that does not fit correctly with the mentality of these
warriors that are going to come over here and try to attack us. We need to adjust that to realize that the rest of the world does not necessarily live
like we do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00] PINSKY: Evy, explain to me what does he mean by that? Can Evy hear me? Evy, you out there?
EVY POUMPOURAS, FMR. SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET AGENT: Yes, I hear you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: There you go. Did you hear what he said there, that the rest of the world -- the people that would engage in something like this do not
think -- their brains do not work the way ours do, so to speak.
POUMPOURAS: It is not that their brains do not work the way they do. You know what? I have interviewed terrorists. I have sat across them.
They are very logical. They are very rational. They are polite. They are charming, and they are nice. The mindset is really -- it is what they
believe. This is a belief, you know and it is not a warped way of thinking.
If many people -- you are talking about thousands of people, how many tens of thousands of people that are in ISIS that have this fundamental
belief? OK? So, we really have to learn to think differently, so that we can battle this. You know what I mean.
I worked with a colleague once. And, he was transporting someone who was a terrorist that we had under -- that was basically under -- we had him
under arrest, so to speak. And, they were conversing in the car and he said to him, you know, I can live with you. You know, I can assimilate. I
would love to live with Muslims here in the United States, I am fine with it.
And, the person in the back seat said, "You know what? I understand that, but I cannot. I cannot assimilate. You know, I believe in my cause,
and I cannot live with you."
SCHLICHTER: I think it is about time we understand that we are at war, Dr. Drew. We are at war against a sect of Islam that believes in
nihilism, that believes in murder, that believes in bloodshed. It does not want us living in peace. It wants us submitted or dead. I am not willing
to live that way. I say we fight back.
PINSKY: Areva, do you agree or disagree?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think the problem with this case is, this young man was born in America. He lived in
Chicago. He grew up in San Bernardino. He went to a local college. He worked for the county of San Bernardino for five years.
So, this is not someone who fits the description of I think the terrorists that you are talking about. So, how do we go about addressing
someone like this that, in many ways, fits the American dream? He goes to his country. He gets married. They have a 6-month-old baby. So, I do not
know how you reconcile the two?
SCHLICHTER: Well, respectfully, I think he fits the profile perfectly. He is someone who has taken advantage of our openness, of our
freedom, of our liberty to bring in his poisonous ideology and act out his bloodstain fantasies. These are bad people --
BLOOM: Bring in from where? He is American.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: But, listen. But, here is where it is coming in. Listen. Think about it this way. Think about it as a cult. This is mind control
coming from cultish thinking, where people are slowly, slowly groomed and brought into a way of thinking.
I had a long conversation with a psychologist this afternoon about this. It takes years sometimes to get somebody to be thinking in this sort
of poisonous way as you say, Kurt. And, it is not something that people sort of grow into or come to on their own.
They are brought through careful techniques taken from the page of any cult that bring them to a place. And, then use religious -- the power of
religion on top of that to get people to convert to a belief where they believe these behaviors are completely appropriate and justified. And,
that is mind control. That is not normal behavior.
Next, the conversation continues. More about the secret life of these killers. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:12:35] GLENN WILLWERTH, CA SHOOTING WITNESS: I noticed somebody run by my window very quickly. I raced up to the front door to meet the
person. As soon as he came in, I saw the sheer look of panic on his face, and he just replied, "They are shooting. They are shooting, everybody."
So, I told -- I told everybody to lock down the building. I told the guy to stay there, everybody to hunker down. I grab my sidearm. I
hollistered it up and I went out towards where the shooting was coming from.
I could immediately hear the shots being fired. I got employees that all have families. My wife is in the building. I wanted to make sure, you
know, it did not travel to my location.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with breaking news about the San Bernardino killings. I am here with Danine, Lisa, Kurt, Areva and Evy. Now, Kurt, you tweeted
today that you expected to be the lone voice of the constitution tonight. Do you find yourself in that position or no?
SCHLICHTER: Well, you know, it is funny, where Lisa and I were talking off air and we probably do not agree on much of anything. But ,
what we are agreeing -- I mean at all. But, we are agreeing on the importance of the constitution.
Do we want, you know, to solve this issue, quote, unquote "Solve it" in a lot of ways. It would require abandoning a lot of constitutional
freedoms that are so precious.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. That is what the French did, and I kind of admire what they did. Abraham Lincoln did it for a very a little while.
BLOOM: Very briefly.
PINSKY: Fine! But, let us do what we need to do.
SCHLICHTER: This is not suspending Habeas Corpus for two months because the entire south has sent an army to invade Northern Virginia.
This is -- What we are talking about is a society here that is different than anywhere else. That is special. That is protected by --
BLOOM: Let us keep it that way.
SCHLICHTER: And, we actually agree on that. I think that gentleman on the T.V., the one who armed himself and took personal responsibility as
an American citizen for protecting himself, his family and his community and his country. I think that is part of the solution. I think the
solution --
BLOOM: More guns?
SCHLICHTER: Yes, in the right hands.
MANETTE: Yes and no.
BLOOM: Yes, and what is the right number, by the way? Because we have 300 million. That is not working for us. So, what is the magic
number when we are going to all finally be safe --
PINSKY: By the way, I heard Barbara --
SCHLICHTER: That is topological fault --
PINSKY: Guys, I heard Barbara Boxer today said that the assault weapon ban here in California is working perfectly.
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: Well, yes, but the problem --
BLOOM: We are only as good as the states around us.
MANETTE: Right.
PINSKY: Whatever. The country -- I mean they have got a drug war going on.
SCHLICHTER: Hey, look. If you want automatic weapons, you can go to Mexico. You can get automatic weapons.
[21:15:00] PINSKY: And, by the way, they are illegal there. They are illegal.
BLOOM: But, we used to have --
PINSKY: They have strictly gun laws down there for automatic weapons.
SCHLICHTER: Lisa, you want guys like me with firearms.
BLOOM: I am going to say to No to that. The truth is --
SCHLICHTER: You want that.
BLOOM: OK. No, I do not want that.
SCHLICHTER: No, you do. You want trained professionals.
BLOOM: Actually, Kurt, I am the expert on what I want. And, what I do not want is an armed citizenry with the gun death rate that we have here
in the U.S. It is unmatched anywhere in the world. Now, we tried it your way for decades.
SCHLICHTER: No, you have not.
BLOOM: We have mass shootings every day.
SCHLICHTER: No, you do not.
BLOOM: More than one a day for a year.
SCHLICHTER: No. No. First of all --
BLOOM: Do not you know it is a fact.
SCHLICHTER: You have now defined mass shootings down to where they are not mass. They are barely shootings.
BLOOM: OK. Four people a day, that does not count as a mass shooting to you?
SCHLICHTER: No, it does not.
BLOOM: So, we can tolerate that?
SCHLICHTER: I can tolerate people in intercity gang shooting each other --
BLOOM: No. I cannot tolerate that either.
SCHLICHTER: -- rather than me being disarmed and left without weapons to protect my family, my community.
BLOOM: OK, but there is where you and I are differ.
SCHLICHTER: I am not going to be disarmed, because the criminals --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let us take it to the audience. Danine, I know you are --
MANETTE: I know, I have two different opinions on that.
PINSKY: I do too, but let me get from the audience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We need to understand the United States has been a military world wide gang.
PINSKY: We have been a gang?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
PINSKY: We have been the gang.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well -- but the world --
PINSKY: World sees us as that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly. So, individuals are just responding to the social history as the United States as a military
neurosis going into places thinking they could be stabilize areas, thinking that they are fighting for freedom. I am from a street gang area. I did
not join the gang, but I understood those dynamics that were happening, that were producing such results. Right?
The psychology of these individuals. The poverty. This whole militarization of the military going into high schools and recruiting
youth, telling them -- hold on a minute -- this is the way to be. There is an enemy. That is the same thinking of a gang. There are enemies. I am
born to this earth and there are enemies.
SCHLICHTER: Dude, there is enemies!
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: However, we -- not we. A system has created them. So, if we are going to find peace, you cannot find peace
with guns, trust me. I am from the hood, like straight hood. You know what I mean.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: OK. OK. Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Wait, wait. We need -- honestly, we need a spiritual transformation. Whether you think of Jesus or Buddha,
whoever, if we do not have that, this world is not going to implode.
PINSKY: OK.
SCHLICHTER: Look, you are, absolutely, right that we need a spiritual transformation in this country. This country has a moral crisis, and we
agree on that. Everything else you said is certifiably insane.
BLOOM: No. It is not. No, it is not.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHLICHTER: America is free because of Americans with guns fighting our enemies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You never heard of --
PINSKY: Hold on.
BLOOM: You do not --
SCHLICHTER: America is free because of Americans with guns.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am not going to take away from that.
PINSKY: I have to say, we are going to have to leave that topic, because I -- Danine, I want to hear your thought on what they were saying
about the guns, then I have another recording I want to play for you, so go ahead.
MANETTE: Well, I do not think that citizens, regular citizens should be armed with guns.
PINSKY: OK.
MANETTE: But, I also --
PINSKY: Trained? Trained citizens?
MANETTE: Regular trained citizens, no.
PINSKY: Trained should not.
MANETTE: Trained should not.
PINSKY: So, I should not go out in training to get a gun.
MANETTE: I do not think a regular citizen should have a carry law like we do in Florida. I do think we need to have that here in the United
States at all. But, what I do think is that we need to give more free perks to law enforcement officers to attend events, free tickets to
concerts, free tickets --
PINSKY: So, encourage people who are trained to be --
MANETTE: Encourage people who are trained to be in venues.
PINSKY: Professionals. Professionals.
MANETTE: Football games, basketball games, whatever.
PINSKY: And, NFL has gone against that.
MANETTE: I understand that, but they need to change their position, because I think someone trained with the gun is important, but regular
citizens, I think that is dangerous.
PINSKY: I am going to move this forward to something else. Today -- on my radio program today, I took a call -- it is KABC radio here in Los
Angeles. It is an Iranian woman who told the story of her brothers and his friends who are quote, "Middle Eastern-Looking Men." They gotten drunk.
They got loud. They started talking politics. They started yelling and somebody report it. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE IRANIAN CALLER: When they got back, the FBI visited my brother and one of the other people in the party simultaneously
at the two different homes, because people had reported them. Everybody was extremely scared. But as he said the story, and the whole family, we
were actually really glad that this happened. Thank God that people are on the alert.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Evy, here is what I am hearing that woman said. I was sort of interested in her call, because she said, "Go ahead and profile me,
if it means that we are going to do we have to do to take care of this problem, in our country" instead of I do not care. So, I look a certain
way, "Profile me. Come look, I got nothing to hide. Let us do this."
POUMPOURAS: Yes, you know, she feels that way. A lot of people feel very differently. You know, my father -- I am the daughter of immigrants.
And, my father, actually, looks very, very ethnic. And, when we would travel or we would go places, they would stop him a lot. They would
profile him, because he looked middle eastern.
So, when we would fly and all that, we would always get stopped by customs. I mean we dealt with it, we understood. But, it just -- I was
the way it was, at least for us. It did not bother us, but there are a lot of other people that do not. They do not like that, because, you know
what? Ideally, Dr. Drew, from a law enforcement perspective, we are not supposed to profile people for what they look like --
PINSKY: It is how they behave.
POUMPOURAS: You suppose to profile people for their behavior. Behavioral profiling. So, people acting unruly.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Well, I must behave very strangely, because every time I go through the airport security, I got somebody with a glove on,
getting ready to check me -- calling me by name.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHING)
POUMPOURAS: I think it is for a different reason --
PINSKY: I am just saying.
(LAUGHING)
SCHLICHTER: Maybe he just likes you.
PINSKY: Do I have time? Emily, do I have time to get this one? OK. Go ahead, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Is this the same topic or you guys changing topics on this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mass shooting.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: No, I said -- mass shooting. The issue of profiling and racism? Because here is what I am looking for. I would like people who
have been the object of racist profiling to lead us out of this, to help us take this and go, "What is ok? What is not OK?"
I have been here. Somebody who has been adversely affected by racism and profiling lead us to where we can get to a place that we can do the
business we need to do to take care of the people like these mass shooters. Do you agree with that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: That is a brilliant idea.
PINSKY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It kind of change my thoughts on that. That is brilliant.
PINSKY: All right. All right. Hold yourself right there. I want you to lead the movement with me. But, not that I have -- Well, I guess I
have been profiled, but hang on. I will get to you after the break. OK. And, also we will get to the controversy over the thoughts and prayers
offered to victims. There is controversy even over that. Watch this -- We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:18] UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Hillary Clinton writing "I refuse to accept this as normal. We must take action to stop
gun violence now." Her rival Bernie Sanders tweeted in part, "This sickening and senseless gun violence must stop." Dr. Ben Carson also using
strong language.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN CARSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Again, another hate crime in San Bernardino.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Donald Trump started his Virginia rally with a moment of silence and other GOP candidates tweeted
out messages of thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families.
Language that Democratic Senator Chris Murphy seemed to take issue with. A staunch advocate of gun control ever since the Sandy Hook massacre
in his home state of Connecticut, he tweeted, "Your thoughts should be about steps to take to stop this carnage. Your prayers should be for
forgiveness if you do nothing again."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are continuing with breaking news about the San Bernardino killings. I promise this gentleman I would get right to him. Let us do
that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Dr. Drew, hopefully, you do not mind a shout out to my family in Hollywood, Florida. Seriously, they were
very concerned --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That you are good. I know. Yes, it is good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- when the mass shooting made national news. No joke, that was serious.
PINSKY: Listen. I have people that have international family members. And, particularly, if you are off this continent, you are very
concerned about this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. And, to make it brief, I agree with the gentleman. If all Americans get back to community and we
protect our communities and, of course, protect our families, I think the problem will be solved, because you will know your neighbors better.
PINSKY: So, you are with Kurt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. When he said earlier about the community and the guy who is on the T.V. with the beard --
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: He got the right idea. I mean I do not have a definite thought on the gun control, but community. You do
not need gun control for community. Everybody at least look out for each other.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: I think that is -- No. But, Lisa, he is not saying arm up. He is saying take care of your own business.
BLOOM: OK, but I am just astounded, because there are crazy people out there. That is one thing we agree on, right? There is guys with guns
who just want to take out as many as possible. So, we can get as connected as we want to be with the community, but they are going to get the assault
weapons. They are going to get the guns --
MANETTE: Yes.
BLOOM: -- they are going to come in and shoot it up as long as we let them have guns. I mean the system we have been doing for the last 30 years
is not working. Thoughts and prayers is not working. More guns is not working.
PINSKY: Let us go here. Audience, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I believe this recent shooting is going to reopen the conversation of terrorism versus domestic
terrorism. The situation in Sandy Hook, Isla Vista, Colorado Springs --
PINSKY: North Carolina. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: As oppose to Paris, and now San Bernardino. I mean, there is even this rhetoric that the Black Lives
Matter movement is domestic terrorism. I just feel like it is a bipartisan issue that our public officials need to get together and come to solution,
so we can eradicate this, so more lives are not lost.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, we all agree something got to be done.
MANETTE: I mean, this is all good and fine and well, but we do not live in Mayberry. We have moved pass that state. We are now in a place
where we are trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. Look, we live in a violent country.
Everybody is mad. Everybody is yelling. Kids had killed 300 people by the time they are in their teens on video games. I am not blaming video
games, but I am just saying, the first thing we do -- that is why Donald Trump is in the lead, because everyone is angry. Everyone is hostile.
They want to be in your face and tell you what they are thinking.
"You are going to hear me." There is no respect. We have gone pass this whole Kumbaya thing. We have to figure out how to protect ourselves
from this threat and this new reality of a country that is violent and angry. And, we have to figure out what we are going to do in order to save
our own civilization.
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, Dr. Drew, I commend you on the -- the comment that you made earlier about the mind control issue. We
are experiencing that, and we need to wake up. There is a lot of variables involved and we do not know all the details, yet.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, rather than just start jumping with the extremism from one end to the other or what not against who and
what not, let us figure out what is going on first and then create a healthy dialogue as to how we can come to conclusions for our resolutions.
PINSKY: And, I appreciate that. Jena, let me go to you. I look at the profile of some of these people that fall victims to what I am calling
mind control, which is what I think some of these extremists do is they pull somebody in, in a very slow systematic way, using sort of cult --
right out of the playbook of any cult, but if you have somebody with poor attachment in childhood, physical abuse and then they are exposed to some
calling, that is a combination to my mind that really is problematic. Do you agree with that?
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I do. There are certain risk factors that put people at risk for joining these collectivistic
communities, cults, terrorist communities, things like that. Certainly, you know, childhood issues, feeling social injustice, feeling like they
need to take control and do something.
But, it is kind of like this staircase, Dr. Drew, where it starts out real wide, right? When you get involved and you climb up the staircase,
and it gets narrower and narrow until you are towards the top.
[21:30:00] And, at the top of it, you cannot turn back around, because there is a sense of shame sort of associated with turning back
around because now you are really in it and you are standing for something that a whole community believes in.
And, you are taught or encouraged to believe that you are doing this on behalf of this community. So, if this is a terrorist attack of some
sort, this is what we are dealing with. I am just glad that there is -- nobody is blaming mental health today.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. Well, you know, it is funny, I was expecting to have -- to come out of this feeling bad about guns, something like people with, you
know, proclivity, who should not be getting guns got guns. Instead, I feel a feel -- I am not saying I am taking a position, but I feel very
different. I feel like, "Geez, maybe I should get a gun. I should arm up." It does not fit into anything. I feel like I am under attack.
BLOOM: This is why it is important to wait. When it is a Muslim, we always assume terrorism. If it is a white person, we assume mental
illness.
MANETTE: Right.
BLOOM: And, we do not know yet. We do not know. And , by the way, nobody is talking about the woman in this. So, we are talking about how
did he get radicalized? Well, he has lived in the U.S. all of his life. She just came over on a fiancee visa in 2014. Perhaps, she was the
radical.
PINSKY: Absolutely. She might radicalized him.
MANETTE: And, what Evy said earlier about people who certain ideologies and how that just takes over everything, she left a 6-month-old
baby --
BLOOM: Yes.
MANETTE: -- and a mother. How do you live your 6-month-old baby and go kill people?
PINSKY: Yes. Listen. Let us see what this forensic psychologist here now says about the killers living the 6-month-old baby behind. Take a
look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: To me, the fact that they had a 6-month- old child that they dropped off before going to do this very organized, violent act, suggests that, that was the final stage of their preparations,
that they were going to abandon their child in order to fulfill this mission or whatever you want to call it. That their selfish desire to
inflict pain and suffering upon the world and on these innocent victims trumped the natural tendency to want to protect one`s child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Evy, if that guy`s assessment is accurate, my fear is that we have crossed yet another line where people may start having children in
this country to use as shields, to use as bombs. Not caring about the child after you go out to kill other people is only a tiny bit removed from
that.
POUMPOURAS: You know, it is funny you say that. When I was in the secret service, we would mug people whenever they come to an event. And, I
would always mug children. When I say mug, I would check children for devices or bombs, for weapons.
There was this struggle within our agency, we were thinking is that ethical or is it not ethical? And, the thing was it is not that the child
has an ill thought or, you know, ill emotion. It is the parent using the child to manipulate the situation, to use that child as a vehicle to carry
out a terrorist attack.
PINSKY: I do not think we can go lower than that.
POUMPOURAS: To carry out some type of -- exactly.
PINSKY: If that is what is happening, I do not think we can go lower than that.
POUMPOURAS: It is not that it is low. It is not that it is low, Dr. Drew. They think they are doing the right thing. This is God`s work. You
see it from a different perspective. From their perspective, they think what higher calling, what better way to die, to sacrifice my own child and
family than for God? Do you see the difference?
PINSKY: I see the difference. I understand your point, but we cannot go lower than sacrificing children to bogus ideas.
POUMPOURAS: But this is --
PINSKY: I understand, that is low. If we start eating children because it is our cultural right, it is who we do say. Hey, we cannot say!
It is not OK to eat your children. It is not OK to kill your children. It is not OK.
Next, the conversation continues. We will hear from relatives of the victims. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:37:50] PRES. BARACK OBAMA, CURRENR U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere
else in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: I have had to make statements like this too many times. Communities that have had to endure tragedies like this too many times.
And, each time I learned the news, I react not as a president, but as anybody else would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: We come together filled with sorrow for the 13 Americans that we have lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: To pray with you today and we will stand by you tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: Whatever is necessary to bring whoever is responsible for this heinous crime to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: The country has to do some soul searching about this. This is becoming the norm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. OBAMA: Each time this happens, I am going to bring this up. Each time this happens, I am going to say that we can actually do something
about it, but we are going to have to change our laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are continuing our breaking news coverage of the San Bernardino shootings. I am back with Danine, Lisa, Kurt, Evy and Jena.
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, democrat from California, sponsored a measure that was voted on in the senate tonight. It was designed to
prevent those on the terror watch list from buying guns. It was voted down. Again, does it matter?
MANETTE: No, because it is not going to work. It is not going to work.
BLOOM: It is a start, is not it?
MANETTE: The guns are already here. You know, I could go out and get an assault rifle in about 20 minutes. The guns are already here. They are
on the streets. The people who want to get the guns are going to be able to get the guns. Like I said, we did not want to have this baby, but we
cannot push it back in. They are out there.
PINSKY: I understand. At least change our culture a little bit. Why not putting a stop to anybody --
SCHLICHTER: Look, look, look --
MANETTE: It is not going to stop.
SCHLICHTER: It is not going to help us to go and have some arbitrary government agency say, "You are now on a terrorist watch list. I am taking
a constitutional right away." What else do we take away? Free speech? Freedom of religion? Freedom from search? --
PINSKY: Hey, look.
SCHLICHTER: "Hey, wait, wait, it is about safety. Let us give up all our rights." Absolutely not. If the government has a reason that someone
should be deprived of their rights per the constitution, it should go into court and prove it. That is not too much to ask. This arbitrary bad idea
is designed -- it is a political hack job. It is against everything America is about --
[21:40:12] PINSKY: Not having an assault rifle? I do not need an assault rifle.
MANETTE: Yes.
BLOOM: Dr. Drew, first of all --
PINSKY: I am very much with the constitution, I do not need an assault rifle.
SCHLICHTER: Yes. First of all, you cannot give an assault rifle.
BLOOM: The court said the --
PINSKY: Good.
BLOOM: If I may respond. The court have said the second amendment does not prohibit a ban on assault weapons or a ban on somebody accused of
domestic violence or accused of terrorism. It is not banned by the second amendment, nor should it be.
SCHLICHTER: No, that is not exactly accurate.
BLOOM: You still have an assault weapon ban under republican president, by the way. That is only gone away in the last decade. And,
look what we see now. Mass shooters with assault weapons. Cannot we all agree --
SCHLICHTER: These people did not have assault weapons.
BLOOM: -- that accused terrorist should not have automatic weapons.
SCHLICHTER: They did not have automatic weapons. If they have automatic weapons, they were already breaking federal law.
BLOOM: No. Because they got --
SCHLICHTER: So, you would make it doubly illegal? You are going to throw them in jail twice?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: We cannot let this --
SCHLICHTER: Look -- no, no. We cannot let --
PINSKY: You guys, I am going to stop you. This is going to go around for a while. Let get the audience in here. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. My name is Casio Spachter (ph), and I agree in what Danine said. We are actually raised from a young
age to work assault rifles in video games. We are being brainwashed in violence and mostly games are violent. And, I just think that it is easy
to manipulate a person once they have already been in the game that long.
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. But, Danine, that is still toothpaste out of the tube thing as you said. And, you took issue with the guy -- the forensic
psychologist who was saying that the child was the last step in their journey of preparation.
MANETTE: Right, because --
PINSKY: You are saying, "No, they just got P.Oed that day --
MANETTE: Yes, exactly. Because I think the child would have already made arrangements for the child if that was their big mission. I think
they would have taken all of their weapons and all of their pipe bombs with them. I think that they would have stayed and tried to annihilate as many
people as possible.
PINSKY: We are gone to their second socket.
MANETTE: Right. But instead, they tried to get back home. So, I think that they just kind to had to act quicker than they anticipated
doing, but they still had their grand plan going. But, I also as far as the audience member, yes, like I said we are in a violent society. And,
rather than concern ourselves with what congress can do to help us, we need to figure out how we can start helping ourselves.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I think that even though people can get a gun, there are many ways that you talked about that they
can illegally acquire a gun. But, by saying that as an average citizen I cannot have a gun, it means I cannot protect myself. I want the ability to
be able to protect myself and my home. And, if that means that I have to hurt someone else, who is trying to hurt me, that is the way it goes. You
cannot be the antagonizer and also the victim.
MANETTE: See, and I agree with that. I just do not think we need to carry guns around in this community.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I must tell you. Does not this lovely young woman standing up and saying something like that give you a chill? It gives me a chill.
It is the world we are in.
BLOOM: Cannot we all agree on background checks for example?
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: Cannot we all agree that people on the terrorist watch list should not be able to buy guns? I mean people who have been adjudicated
mentally ill? People who have been convicted of domestic violence or other violent crimes. I mean there is a lot of middle ground here.
SCHLICHTER: In many of those are already illegal.
BLOOM: Some of them.
SCHLICHTER: I demand due --
BLOOM: Some places.
SCHLICHTER: However, I am not giving up my rights. I demand due process. If we as a people through acting through our government believe
somebody should not be allowed to exercise their right to keep and bear arms, it is on us to go in and prove it and give them the chance to
respond. Due process. That is not too much to ask.
PINSKY: All right. Let me get in here, Jena.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKy: We are looking at brand new coverage from the press conference that just happened a few moments ago of the ammunition, the
weapons, and the crime scene where the victims were finally subdued. Jena?
KRAVITZ: Yes. What I was going to say was I do not necessarily think this is just an issue of gun control, because when you are dealing with a
criminal mind, where there is a will, there is a way. I mean what are you going to do? Ban the purchasing and promote control policy?
PINSKY: OK. But, what do we do? We are all saying the same thing from different angles, which is to just go harken back to the metaphor, the
toothpaste is out of the container.
KRAVITZ: Exactly.
PINSKY: What do we got to do? Is it we go back -- Danine, says cultivate your community, but then the community is under assault with
weapons. What do we --
MANETTE: Our society is going to change, Drew, whether we like it or not. I think that someone is going to introduce a line of bullet proof
clothing at some point. I think that there is going to -- I am sorry, but our society is going to change, because if someone is intent on killing
you, they will you. Just like, you know, restraining order is not going to stop a physical abuser from coming and killing a victim of domestic
violence.
PINSKY: You want to finish your thought?
KRAVITZ: Yes. No, I mean, I think that there is a lot of things we can do. From, you know, more stringent gun control laws to taking care of
our communities and ourselves to better coping skills, to better anger management to, you know -- There is so many things that we can do, but I
agree with you, Danine. I think we just need to come together.
SCHLICHTER: You know, there is two important facts here --
PINSKY: I am disturbed by this whole conversation.
MANETTE: Yes, disturbing, but it is the reality --
SCHLICHTER: Drew, there is two important facts and there is some items of hope. The item of hope is that in 1993, America`s homicide rate,
gun violence rate to use a term that is kind of inaccurate, but -- was almost double what it is now. It is now half of what it used to be. And,
guns have exploded across the United States.
[21:45:00] Most states have either fully or nearly fully allow you to exercise your second amendment rights to carry concealed weapons with a
permit or with nothing like in Arizona and seven other states. However, there is something else we need to know. In California, we have some of
the strictest gun laws there are. We have waiting periods. We have background checks for every weapons.
PINSKY: OK. And? And?
SCHLICHTER: We got magazines --
PINSKY: I got to go to break. Finish your thought.
SCHLICHTER: -- and they still got these weapons.
PINSKY: We will be right back.
MANETTE: And, we will.
PINSKY: Conversations goes on.
MANETTE: It is not going to be perfect.
PINSKY: Be right back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Farook was a 28-year-old U.S. citizen with no criminal record and an employee of the county health department.
He left a workplace holiday gathering Wednesday, reportedly angry, and came back with his 27-year-old wife, Tashfeen Malik, and opened fire.
[21:50:00] The FBI and other law enforcement officials were attempting to trace who Farook had been in touch with, where he travelled
and what may have prompted his actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Danine, Lisa, Kurt, Evy and Jena. And, our breaking news coverage of the San Bernardino killings. So, during the
break, we were all talking about this helplessness and the sadness. And, Kurt, you have mentioned that, that is exactly what terrorists want, right?
SCHLICHTER: Yes. Let me switch into army war college mode. Terrorism is not attack to go operation. It is not going to go out and
destroy forces or conquer territory. What it is going to do is attack the morale --
PINSKY: The psyche.
SCHLICHTER: Exactly. It is psychological warfare. It is to make you scare, to make you sad, to make you throw away your freedoms, to make the
government repressive, which in turn makes more terrorist. We cannot allow that. The way to get around that is not to get despondent, not to get
hopeless. It is to get angry and to take personal control over our right to self-defense.
BLOOM: Well, I have a slightly different take on it.
PINSKY: You are not saying angry, you are saying something else.
BLOOM: No. So, terrorism by definition is trying to instill terror.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: And, I encourage everybody to say this. "I am not afraid." Because if we are not afraid, the terrorists do not win.
PINSKY: But Lisa, Lisa -- I would say not just afraid but not helpless. I think helplessness --
BLOOM: Well, helplessness just allows us to go on with the mass shootings in America. We cannot be despondent.
PINSKY: We cannot be despondent. We cannot be helpless. We must be proactive. We must be --
MANETTE: Empowered.
PINSKY: Engaged.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Empowered. Exactly.
BLOOM: But, I think the fear thing is so important. Because everybody in the media, not this show, but fear, fear, fear. I tweet all
the statistics today. You are more likely to be killed by a toddler than a terrorist in the U.S. You are more likely to be crushed to death by your
T.V. than killed by a terrorist. You have a one in 20 million chance in the U.S. to be killed by a terrorist. It is extremely low.
PINSKY: But Lisa --
BLOOM: Let us not live with fear.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
POUMPOURAS: That is about to change.
PINSKY: Yes. Evy, I will go on you on this, because she is saying those stats are about to change. There is people out there, who avow to
change those stats and we cannot let them change those stats.
BLOOM: Well, of course, not.
PINSKY: But, Evy, go ahead.
POUMPOURAS: You know, I hear what you guys are saying, but those statistics are about to change. And, you know, to kind of go back earlier,
the reason nobody is calling this terrorism yet is because they do not want to call it.
Do you understand that there are consequences that if they do call this terrorism, this says what is happening in Europe, what happened in
Paris, what has been happening in Israel and other countries is now here. And with that --
PINSKY: It is here. But, Evy, it is here. Why should -- let us not be afraid of it. Let us call it what it is.
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. Let us be man up to this and start taking action.
SCHLICHTER: Exactly.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
POUMPOURAS: Yes, the difference is though -- But, when we talk about taking action, you know, we have spent -- we have spent since 9/11, $753
billion, with a "B," dollars on counterterrorism.
So, what does that say that something like this happened? The other thing is, you have to understand it is difficult to track terrorists. The
FBI director has come out and said, listen, a lot of -- they discuss. They go dark. They engage in the deep internet.
PINSKY: Evy. Evy, stop it. Are we going to give up, what are we going to do?
POUMPOURAS: No. We are not going to give up, but we also have to look at the reality of it. We have to understand what the dynamics are, as
far as fighting back. There are plenty of ways to fight back. I got to tell you, giving more guns out this and leaving these loose gun control
laws, that is not it. The constitution was written at a time when we do not have automatic and rifles.
PINSKY: All right.
POUMPOURAS: We do not have those types of weapons. The times are different. We have to change the laws and make them a little bit more
different. And, just to close it -- just to bring it home, do you understand that there are approximately 2,000 terrorist suspects, who have
applied for weapons and gotten weapons in the last 11 years? 2,000.
SCHLICHTER: Look, gun control laws worked yesterday tragically in San Bernardino. No one at that building was able to defend themselves or
herself. No one. They were sitting ducks. Taking control means taking a stand. It means if you are an appropriate person, if it is in your nature
to arm yourself, to conceal carry.
MANETTE: Law enforcement.
SCHLICHTER: Not just law enforcement --
PINSKY: It is training. I got few seconds.
BLOOM: Quick comment, though. I want to give a big shout out to San Bernardino police and the FBI.
PINSKY: Yes. And the FBI.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHLICHTER: Yes.
BLOOM: Because that worked yesterday.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: They saved probably dozens of other lives could have been lost.
PINSKY: Who knows where those people were headed, as you said --
BLOOM: They did a great job.
PINSKY: They were armed up.
BLOOM: Sometimes they are critical police in other cases. In this case, they were fantastic.
PINSKY: And, you actually came up with a little practical app to challenge people.
MANETTE: Yes. Because part of what paralyzes us is our feeling of being out of control, that we have no control. And, we do not have any
control over what the terrorists do, what congress do. We have no control over that. I would like to see even Silicon Valley become involved, and
create an app, a shot spotter app. So, that if I am in theater and I am in theater number three, and there is a shooting in theater number seven, my
app goes off.
PINSKY: The law enforcement has that.
MANETTE: Law enforcement has it.
[21:55:00] PINSKY: Why do not we all have that? Again, we need all begin to participate in --
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: So, I think we need to figure out how to be involved in our own safety, our own security, instead of worrying about what congress is
doing, worrying about what the terrorists are doing.
PINSKY: Going to wrap up. Be right back to wrap up completely after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right, I want to thank my panelists, thank my audience, thank you all for listening and participating in this conversation. Evy, I
think you are right, this is a new normal, and we are all going to have to get use to it and be active on how we respond to it. Helplessness is an
unhealthy human emotion. We must combat ourselves against, and people that are helpless are not very effective and it is no way to live. So, let us
be active.
Let us get together as Voltare says, let us take care of our own guardians. That is how he solves -- that is how we actually solve our
problems and looking at our own community is certainly a place to start. You can DVR us then you can watch us anytime. I thank you for watching.
We will see you next time.
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
