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Dr. Drew
Inside America`s Classrooms: Violence Between And Amongst Students And Teachers; Aggressions Around School. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 09, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:22] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: And, tonight inside America`s classrooms, punching, hitting, handcuffing, violence between and amongst
students and teachers. It appears to be on the rise. What is causing all this mayhem, and who is going to stop it?
It all begins right now. We are spending the hour looking at aggression in our schools. Student versus teacher, teacher versus student, resource
officers. Did this school resource officer go too far when an unruly student refused to leave the classroom? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN FIELDS, SOUTH CAROLINA SHERIFF: Hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That student is a 16-year-old girl, who refused orders from the teacher and an administrator. She refused to leave the classroom at their.
The student resource officer has subsequently been fired. And, then, 150 students from that high school protested his termination.
Joining me, Rolonda Watts, host of the podcast Rolonda on demand. Also, AnneElise Goetz, Attorney, host of the podcast "Your Life and the Law.
Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist. Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for Avvo.com and Cheryl Dorsey,
Sergeant LAPD (Ret.), author of "The Creation of a Manifesto: Black & Blue." And, Cheryl, I am going to you first. Where did this go off the
rail?
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD (RET.): Well, I think the officer became personally involved in his interaction with this young lady. And, I think
he was more concerned with punishing her, with making her pay.
PINSKY: But to be fair and to be polemical about this, she refuses a teacher, she refuses administrator. For all we know, we do not really know
what happened prior to this video we have all been mortified watching. Is it all on the officer?
DORSEY: Well, certainly, she has a responsibility to do what she is told. And, I do not know what the consequences traditionally are at that school
for students who do not. You would think that they would have a system in place where you are given an opportunity to do a thing, comply, and if you
do not, there is a consequence. How about, you do not come back to my class for a couple days?
PINSKY: Lisa?
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND LEGAL ANALYST: There is no excuse for a police officer to get physical with a minor unless that minor is a danger
to herself or somebody else in the classroom. She is sitting there. Yes, she is not complying. She is not doing what the teacher is telling her to
do --
PINSKY: The class cannot go on.
BLOOM: Do you know how many kids do not do what the teacher tells them to do on a daily basis? 40 percent, 50 percent? Are we going to have police
officers come and throw them all across the room? I mean do we have such a failure of imagination when it comes to disciplining kids. Is this is all
we can think of?
PINSKY: AnneElise, you agree?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Well, that is the key, like we are looking at this, this is disciplinary, right? She was not listening to the
instruction. It was not anything violent actually happening. And, what I think the problem that we are seeing over and over again is that teachers
are knee-jerk, bringing in police officers, as opposed to actually administering in their classrooms.
PINSKY: OK. So, that is an interesting point, which is that the resource officers were there to address criminal conduct, right?
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Not teachers, discipline, not misbehavior and talking back students. No?
GOETZ: This is not a new novel concept. When I was in high school, when I was in junior high, fights broke out, and teachers, administrators, dealt
with it. We did not have officers. We did not call for backup. And, the whole thing happened so quickly too. That is a part of their job. It is
the part of their job to deal with children.
PINSKY: Segun.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: The ball was dropped. And, the ball was -- First by the parents.
PINSKY: No. It is easy to do that, misbehaving child like, "Oh, bad parenting."
ODUOLOWU: But, the teacher -- But the teacher, I mean -- look, I want to call the teacher some pretty choice language.
PINSKY: We are going to have a teacher in here later, who is going to defend teachers.
ODUOLOWU: But, I have been a teacher.
PINSKY: I have not talked to her about it.
ODUOLOWU: But, I have been a teacher. I was an 8th Grade English teacher.
PINSKY: OK. OK.
ODUOLOWU: I have been in classrooms. And, you better be able to command the respect of your students. And, you should not have to -- if a kid is
not complying, have to resort to going outside and calling for backup, and that backup --
PINSKY: Segun, respectfully, you are a 210-pound, 6`3" male.
ODUOLOWU: Right.
PINSKY: It is a little easier for you to command respect than if you were somewhere in Rolonda`s size.
ODUOLOWU: No.
PINSKY: No?
ODUOLOWU: Because, it is not about --
(CROSSTALK)
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF THE "ROLONDA ON DEMAND" PODCAST: Now, you do not want to mess with me.
PINSKY: As much as I, there is Rolonda.
ODUOLOWU: Come on! Rolonda?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I never would.
ODUOLOWU: Listen, I was afraid of Ms. Johnson growing up in my class. I know how to respect teachers and they know how to command respect. That
teacher, having to call for backup, first of all, lost all control of the classroom. Because what did you do? Stick her head out -- what did you do,
stick his head out to call that person in? Now, the class is doing whatever they want.
PINSKY: Right.
ODUOLOWU: It is these teachers that need to be trained better how to handle situations where you do not need a power lifting cop, dumping a desk
on a little girl.
PINSKY: How about the entitlement and, you know, the way young people are being raised today? I mean, we are watching what is going on college
campuses. I am not sure where that is going. That is another topic I want to get into, but there seems to be a sense of, "Hey, we are in charge. We
are in charge and no respect for authority." I do not know, if there is lack of respect for authority?
[21:05:05] WATTS: I do not know if you know something, I hear so many people talk and I hate to talk this way, but this is what I hear a lot
about the millennials. There is a sense of entitlement that they are just not playing by the rules of the game, so to speak. But, the sad thing
about it, Dr. Drew, is that the two little girls who are involved in this, even though what the officer did was so wrong --
PINSKY: Two?
WATTS: The other girl, remember who came up with the pictures --
GOETZ: As friend who came to her defense.
WATTS: And was taken --
GOETZ: And, also being charged.
WATTS: Is also being charged for the same felon -- the same --
GOETZ: Disrupting of school.
WATTS: Disrupting of school.
ODUOLOWU: Disrupting of, you know -- of the school.
WATT: But, here is the sad thing. As long as these girls are going to be living, they are going to have this follow them.
PINSKY: Not only that, what a great way to deal with somebody`s behavior make them a criminal.
GOETZ: And, the problem is what we are doing is creating this pipeline from the classroom to the courtroom and no one wins in that scenario. You
have kids with records. They are put in the juvenile system. And, once you are in that system, I am not saying you cannot get out, but it is hard.
PINSKY: Listen. I do not --
GOETZ: It is a whole another ball game.
PINSKY: I also do not want to race bait, but is race an issue in this?
ODUOLOWU: Absolutely, race is an issue. It is very easy for that police officer to dump that desk on a black girl, because she does not represent
his niece or his daughter or anybody that is familiar --
PINSKY: Somebody help me here.
ODUOLOWU: It is too easy for him to do that.
BLOOM: I am going to help you, because I agree. Look. We look at all of the incidents of police abuse of unarmed people, disproportionately it is
African-American in America. That is who we are talking about. That is the data that you have to grapple with. We do not like it. We wish it was
not. We do not want it to be, but that is the data, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what is that?
DORSEY: And, I agree, I think that race does play a part. Because when you cannot relate to that person, when you do not look at them and think,
"That could be my daughter. That could be my niece." It is very easy then to objectify someone, because they just become a thing, you know, this
thing you throw across the room.
WATTS: And, I think that is happening all across the nation. When people look at that video, they are saying, "What if that happened to my
daughter?" And, I do not care what color you are, that was violent behavior that nobody wants to happen to their child, not in classroom.
PINSKY: So, you are saying race not an issue so much?
WATTS: Well, I am saying --
PINSKY: Or at least our response to it.
WATTS: I am saying that it is immediately that we always say race is an issue, and I do believe a lot of times it is. But, I think that any mother
or father sitting at home says, "What is going on in our schools?" I mean, nobody wants that to happen to their child.
PINSKY: Well, that is the theme for the afternoon today. AnneElise, last words?
GOETZ: When it comes to race, what we saw with that interaction, it could have been one of the underlying factors. But, the way the kids are in the
schools right now, I think the problems we are seeing have nothing to do with race. I think that kids are a little bit different than they were
back when we were kids.
ODUOLOWU: The way they are getting treated -- but the treatment --
PINSKY: Let us hang that out there for our consideration. Are kids different right now? Because we are going to look at some of the behavior
on campus and how they are being treated. We will try to work through that in the course of this hour.
What are teachers having to put up with, for instance? How aggressive? How aggressive? How hostile are those students? Here is a teacher who
just sat calmly while students attacked. Was that appropriate? Back with more after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:08:09] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:12:10] WATTS: You are looking at these young people. Not one person stood up and said, "Hey, you all, stop this." Not one person stood up.
And, it is about the character of these young people, I think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S CO-HOST ON "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO: This is what happens with kids nowadays, because attention is more important than
anything. You know, you can get on world star hip-hop or you can get on Facebook with a viral video.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: If this is how they treat a substitute teacher, how are they treating other students at school?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Education was the one thing that my grandparents and great grandmother instilled on us that they cannot take
away from you. And, you have these young kids, these cowards, throwing their free education away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: They do not value it, and this is of course outrageous behavior from high school students in Chicago, who taught and threatened their
substitute teacher. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: No, stop that. I told your (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: No, wait. Wait. No!
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: She going to say something about me! Do not ask me what my name is again!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TEACHER: I need you to throw -- whatever you are throwing, just throw it away. I need you to throw it away. OK, young
lady, I am going to have to ask you to have a seat. I am going to have to ask you to have a seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: You are on camera. I am fixing to smack a (EXPLETIVE WORDS) the whole bag of M&Ms.
(LAUGHING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Rolonda, AnneElise, Segun, Lisa and Cheryl. And, Rolonda, you know, you said no one stands up, they are all laughing and
giggling.
WATTS: Yes. That is what bothered me most. First of all, it is such a privilege to have an education. Education is freedom.
PINSKY: Now, they consider it a burden.
WATTS: I know.
PINSKY: We burdening kids with education.
WATTS: And, they are getting it in their own way. And, what really bothered me there was the other students standing around, the laughing, and
that poor teacher. You know, I do not know if I could have been that calm.
PINSKY: And, I think she was great, but Segun, you took issue if I remember with that video when we first reported on it, saying that she
should have commanded respect just like you were talking about a few seconds.
ODUOLOWU: Right. She sat there. She sat there very meekly and was just kind of dispassionately like, "You all do not pay me enough to get involved
in any of this." Then do not be a teacher.
WATTS: She might be scared.
ODUOLOWU: Listen. I do not care if you are scared, frightened or -- That is not the job for you, like we have all agreed that these kids might be a
different thinking individual. But when you step into that classroom, you wear a title, like a priest does, like a principal does, like a coach does
and a teacher. And, you always call Ms. Johnson, Ms. Johnson, that was your teacher.
WATTS: Yes, but where did the breakdown in decorum come from?
ODUOLOWU: Command respect.
WATTS: Where? Our teachers? I mean our teachers, parents?
GOETZ: It is not just about that.
ODUOLOWU: No. It is parents. I mean it is parents, but the teachers --
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Here is what we are not talking about.
PINSKY: What are we not talking about?
BLOOM: OK. I have a foster son. I have interviewed a lot of, especially troubled boys for my book "Swagger." Every time a child acts out, there is
a reason.
PINSKYL: Of course.
BLOOM: And, I can guarantee you there is a problem with their home life.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: It is generally the problem.
[21:15:00] PINSKY: OK.
BLOOM: There is trauma.
PINSKY: And, so when -- the package from the beginning of this segment was a lot of people saying, "These kids, kids these days." It is almost like,
"Those people." These are our children. These are the children of our country. What needs do they have that are not being met?
ODUOLOWU: Those are not my kids. No, no, no. Those are not my kids.
BLOOM: There is something going on, that is why they are acting out.
ODUOLOWU: Listen, we typically agree. Those are not my kids and that is not how I was raised.
BLOOM: OK. So, your kids are perfect?
ODUOLOWU: No, no, no, I am not saying that. What I am saying is, if the kids -- if you are not going to be taught at home, you will be taught
outside. So, those kids acting up in a classroom, I am putting squarely on the parent.
But if a teacher is going to enter into that for -- you got to do more than just sit there meekly. But, I am telling you, I am on the phone to
somebody`s parent, somebody`s administration because that cannot happen. You sat there just passionately.
BLOOM: No. But I know what you mean. So, parents should do their job.
ODUOLOWU: OK.
BLOOM: But, so many do not do their job, and so it is not enough for us to --
WATTS: Well, then we have to do their job.
ODUOLOWU: But, then you got it.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: So, it is not enough for us to say, "Oh there is bad parents, and then therefore these kids are bad, so let us bring in a cop and haul them
up in handcuffs because they acted out in class." I mean I think, we, as a community, have an obligation to take care of kids, who are not being cared
for by their parents.
PINSKY: Well , but --
DORSEY: I think that teacher had an affirmative responsibility to own that space. It seemed to me like in her --
PINSKY: What if she had called a resource officer, would that be a right thing to do?
DORSEY: No. What she should have done, she should have --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Or what if she become a --
DORSEY: She should have commanded that space. She should have owned that room. They should have been fearful that perhaps there is a consequence if
I do not listen to this lady. She was so dispassionate, that it almost gives me the impression that she really did not care. She did not care
about this person`s -- what is going on in their background.
ODUOLOWU: No.
GOETZ: I think she is handling -- I also think that things got violent, unlike in other clips that we have seen, things got violent in that clip.
PINSKY: Let me show you.
GOETZ: And, this is a perfect example of when we want to have a law enforcement officer come in and help the teacher.
PINSKY: And, let us remind ourselves, she knew she was being filmed too.
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: These days you are scared to death of what the consequences of --
GOETZ: People will sue a school like that.
PINSKY: -- anything you say, everything is going to be second judged. You know, judge in a court of public opinion. So, it does get worse as
AnneElise was saying. Watch what happens when the teacher ignores these students.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Give me the damn M&Ms.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SUBSTITUTE TEACHER: I need you to have a seat. For those of you working on your assignment --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Sit down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: Can you do my assignment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Sit down. Sit down on your chair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SUBSTITUTE TEACHER: Young man, I need you to go ahead and have a seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Sit down on your chair. Sit your (EXPLETIVE WORD) down on your chair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SUBSTITUTE TEACHER: Have a seat. Can you get security?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: What do you need security for?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SUBSTITUTE TEACHER: Again, young man, you can have a seat.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: She sat down in her seat, though, right? She sat down in that seat, right? She sat down in that seat, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: At that point, are they going to respect anything besides force, AnneElise?
GOETZ: That is when you bring in law enforcement, because they are lifting chairs. They are lifting desks. There is a whole community of them --
PINSKY: But, what if that law enforcement officer came in and started taking down the student with a desk over his head? Then we would be
talking about the resource officer.
(CROSSTALK)
GOETZ: Call resource officer for the kids when there is violence.
BLOOM: Can we bring in therapist? Does somebody actually talk to these kids about their problems, instead of just incarcerating everybody in
America?
PINSKY: Whoa! Honey, who do you think you are talking to?
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: I am talking about authority, respect, bringing in --
PINSKY: but, I am telling you to -- to treat a kid like that, takes years with an individual --
BLOOM: Well, let us get moving on it.
PINSKY: It would cost a fortune just for that one kid. How do we handle all that?
BLOOM: How much does it cost to incarcerate someone?
ODUOLOWU: Well --
PINSKY: Well, I agree with you.
ODUOLOWU: How about just performing triage. I am a teacher in a classroom. I got 13, 15, 20 kids to teach. One kid is acting up, that kid
got to leave the room like I am going to do everything in my power to get you out of the room, so I could administer my education my education --
PINSKY: Remember, she is a substitute teacher.
ODUOLOWU: As a substitute teacher, you have to do everything to implant that lesson plan. So, get that person out of the classroom. And, if they
do not want to leave, then you call for help.
What bothered me is the fact that she knew she was being taped and she allowed that to happen. Like in classrooms, they are no cell phones. Do
not put a phone in my face as a student. She has already lost all the respect.
DORSEY: Police officers who say they do not want to do their job because they are not being filmed. Maybe you are not constituted for this kind of
profession and that is OK. If you understand that this is not the job for you, then please, go do something that is more suitable for your
temperament.
ODUOLOWU: Absolutely.
PINSKY: AnneElise.
GOETZ: The reason that, that did not get ten times worse than it was, is because of the way that she reacted. I do not think that we should be
throwing her under the bus here.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: If she started yelling and screaming at them, she could have been injured. Other people in the classroom could have been injured.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: I do not think she is at fault here. I do not think she is a bad teacher. I think if she got through that lesson plan and got out without
anyone getting hurt and hopefully there was a phone call after the class --
ODUOLOWU: That should never be the goal of a teacher to get out of a classroom without getting hurt.
GOETZ: No. No. No. When that is the scenario.
ODUOLOWU: That is not good teaching.
GOETZ: When that is a scenario, then it is the goal. Get everyone out safe.
PINSKY: And, she may have had less access to the kind of backup that we think she might have had. She may have been out there alone and had to in
fact get through without escalating things. I agree with AnneElise.
Next up -- and we are all dilatants here other than you, Segun. But, I am going to bring in next a teacher who had a student threaten to shoot her.
What she did about that, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRYSTAL MCCADDEN, MOTHER OF A 7-YEAR-OLD KID WHO WAS HANDCUFFED BY A POLICE: I was told that when he walked in, he told my son "If you do not
sit down, I am going to handcuff you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This is cell phone video shot by Chrystal McCadden as she walked into Brownell Stem Academy. Her son handcuffed
behind his back. McCadden said the officer could not release her son because he did not have a key.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Putting handcuffs on a 7-year-old, can we just agree in this country, we should never do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The officer used handcuffs to restrain the child to prevent injury to the child or others. The officer eventually
got a key and released her son.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: If you cannot control a 7-year-old without putting him in handcuffs, then you do not need to be in the
classroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A 7-year-old handcuffed for misbehaving in school. The mom said he has ADHD, but he has never been violent. I am back with Rolonda,
AnneElise, Segun and Lisa.
And, joining us, Erin Reid, a teacher whom herself had a student threaten to shoot her. I have also on Skype got John Cardilo, WJNO Radio Host and
on himself, a former NYPD Officer. And, John for a change, I am going to go to you first. And, I want you to tell me, is handcuffs for a 7-year-old
appropriate protocol?
[21:25:00] JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Look, it looks bad, but you know, after we did the segment, first time I analyzed it further, I
spoke to the department, and with the information the officer had, it was the only tool available to him to ensure the student did not hurt himself
or others. And, while it looks horrible, unfortunately, that is what he had available and he was only trained to do that.
PINSKY: Is there something you can tell us to help us understand how you arrived at that conclusion? I mean what did you learn that we do not know?
CARDILLO: Well, that, that he was not -- that the department is small. They did not have the money for additional training -- training for what
they call for EDPs or psychiatric training.
And, these are such isolated incidents, it so rarely happens, that an officer is called for a potentially suicidal or violent 7-year-old, that
with the training and knowledge he had at that moment, he felt handcuffs were the best solution until medical professionals or a parent could
arrive.
BLOOM: Are you kidding me! Are you kidding me that a trained police officer cannot handle an unarmed 7-year-old.
WATTS: 7-year-old.
BLOOM: I can guarantee you, you give me that 7-year-old, I do not need to be armed. I can handle him until help arrives. What is next, a 2-year-
old?
CARDILLO: How would you handle -- hold on.
BLOOM: Are we going to handcuff that too?
CARDILLO: How would you handle him?
BLOOM: I would --
CARDILLO: How would you handle him?
BLOOM: If necessary --
CARDILLO: What if he is scratching and biting you?
BLOOM: OK. Well, then I would hold his hands, so he cannot do that.
CARDILLO: And, what if he is biting you? Hold on. What if he is biting - -
BLOOM: He is freaking 7 years old.
CARDILLO: What if he is biting your wrist?
BLOOM: He is like half my size, dude.
CARDILLO: What if he is biting you, what would you do then?
BLOOM: Well, there is a lot of what-ifs. This is not actually what happened here.
CARDILLO: No. What would --
BLOOM: No. No, because police officers do not get to just say, you know, "What if, what if, what if." You are supposed to act and deal with the
facts as they are.
CARDILLO: And, Lisa -- Lisa, be honest, if that officer would have restrained the kid and the kid had a bruise, you would be sitting up here
screaming that the cop used excessive force. So, it was --
BLOOM: Yes. I sure would, because you should not be bruising a 7-year- old.
CARDILLO: Right. So -- hold on. You just admitted that no matter what the police officer did --
BLOOM: OK. You do not need to be yelling.
CARDILLO: You admitted that --
BLOOM: You keep on yelling --
CARDILLO: Well, hold on. You keep cutting me off and I have a tech disadvantage.
(LAUGHING)
You just admitted that no matter what the police officer did, he would be wrong in your eyes.
BLOOM: No, I did not admit that.
CARDILLO: Yes, you did.
BLOOM: Let us play the tape back.
PINSKY: Well, let me do this. Hang on. Let me get a teacher in here. Erin, you have been in this situations --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Oh, I am no longer a teacher here?
PINSKY: Two teacher here.
ODUOLOWU: A real teacher.
PINSKY: She has had very serious threats against her.
ERIN REID, TEACHER THREATENED BY STUDENT: I have.
PINSKY: Segun, I know you have been able to master your classrooms.
ODUOLOWU: Well, yes. I am the big guy.
REID: But let me clarify, I was not threatened by a 7-year-old.
PINSKY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Nor did you handcuff a 7-year-old.
REID: No. And, as a teacher and as a mother, I think that there should be other ways, definitely to talk a kid down.
PINSKY: And, I agree with you. But, I just heard two things from John. One is, they did not have the training to do that. And, you as a teacher,
I am sure, did.
REID: You do not need training to talk to a 7-year-old.
BLOOM: Thank you.
WATTS: Thank you.
ODUOLOWU: I disagree --
REID: Any human being can talk to a 7-year-old.
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: But, you know what? I do not agree with John very often, and it bothers me that I have to do that now. But, if that kid was violent, and
you were the person --
PINSKY: Right. What if he was banging his head against the wall?
ODUOLOWU: And, you were the mother of another kid and they said, they could have restrained him with handcuffs or your kid would have been
stabbed with a pencil or scissors, you would have wanted that kid handcuff. We do not know how violent the kid is.
And, it looks bad, but if that kid is that unruly and as John said, they do not have the training, which is the bad part, they are not trained properly
how to talk that 7-year-old down. If that kid is a danger to other, get him away from the other students.
GOETZ: But, get him away, you do not have to handcuff him.
ODUOLOWU: Restrain him.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: There is laws against that.
ODUOLOWU: Come on. You cannot lock him in a closet.
BLOOM: No. Get him a room with a responsible adult, who any of us is twice this kid`s size. Let us remember, he is probably like maybe 3 feet
tall dripping wet.
ODUOLOWU: So, then you did not answer me again --
BLOOM: And, you lock the door.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Lisa, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have it both ways.
BLOOM: And guess what else you have to do? You talk to him. You find out what the problem is.
ODUOLOWU: You cannot talk to the kid and talk the kid down while you are trying to administer to the other students. And, you cannot then separate
that kid, walk that kid to the separate room where something -- the kid could say you touched him when you take him to a separate room.
PINSKY: Right.
ODUOLOWU: There is so many things --
BLOOM: So, let us take handcuffs to preschool then too because those kids act out a lot.
PINSKY: That is an interesting question. Where is the cutoff? How old, 5? 6? 4?
GOETZ: Well the cut off, it is not 7. It is not 7.
PINSKY: But let us be clear, human bites are no fooling. I mean they are really serious that they get infected typically. They can destroy tendons.
BLOOM: And handcuffings does not stop somebody from biting.
PINSKY: I do not know. At least you are not the one containing being in the cuffs yourself. But, let me go back to Erin. The teachers fear that
if they, themselves, like that one teacher we saw in the last segment that was just sitting calmly while students went cut nuts all around her.
Are they fearful of being filmed? Are they fearful if they call the police too soon or the resource officer, they are going to be criticized? I mean
are teachers scared right now, that there are going to be lawsuits?
REID: Well, it is twofold, because California law says we have to protect kids, and if the kid is endangering himself, endangering another student,
as a teacher, if a fight breaks out, obviously I will call security and they will come. But, if I do not do something to stop it and that child is
hurt, or God forbid worse in my classroom --
[21:30:00] PINSKY: It is on you.
REID: -- then I could be held liable for not doing anything.
PINSKY: Not could, you would be.
BLOOM: Right. Correct.
REID: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Lisa would come along in that. She is already making the case.
BLOOM: Student, as a teacher, if a fight breaks out, obviously I will call security and they will come, but if I do not do something to stop it
and that child is hurt, or god forbid worse in my classroom.
BLOOM: No. I am not against Erin. Erin is obviously a very responsible. No, but if there is a serious injury and a teacher knows and fails to act,
yes there is liability there.
ODUOLOWU: But Lisa -- but then how would you -- so, you are in the classroom. How would you handle this? She is in the classroom with a
violent student.
BLOOM: Call security.
ODUOLOWU: OK. She calls security.
PINSKY: What if there is no security --
GOETZ: The lynch pin is violent.
BLOOM: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: OK. Does she engage in the violence? Does she try to talk the violence down, or go and get a cop or police officer?
BLOOM: Well, yes. First, you try to talk to them. I mean I think, Erin can answer the question. The ultimate question is, how do you control a
classroom, right? Because kids are always going to be unruly.
REID: Well, that is a catch 22, right? It is all about how you establish your classroom and what has been established. The video that we saw
earlier, that was a substitute teacher, she has no control over the classroom. She has no rapport with her students. She has no --
PINSKY: And, we could not reasonably expect that she would.
REID: Right.
PINSKY: It is a different when a woman coming as opposed to a 6`3" male coming in. It is just different. No?
REID: Well, it is not --
PINSKY: I mean I am just saying, maybe if you really have a skill set, you could --
REID: I do not think it matters if you are male or female. I think you can command a classroom regardless.
BLOOM: And, I will tell you something about parents, by the way.
ODUOLOWU: Good teachers as oppose to bad teachers.
BLOOM: When we say this about parents, the parents need to support teachers.
REID: Absolutely.
BLOOM: This is something I write about.
PINSKY: Well, that is what I want to know of parents.
BLOOM: You have to teach your kids to respect teachers. Do not undermine the teacher at home.
PINSKY: Of course.
BLOOM: Do not bad mouth the teacher.
PINSKY: Listen. Lisa, I go around telling people all the time, the school and the teacher are your friends. They are your asset. They are an ally.
If they are telling you, there is something wrong with your kid, listen to them.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Because they are there to help you help your kid.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Do not go, "What is wrong with the teacher? They do not like my kid?" That is nonsense. But, my question Erin, we have been a little glib
about all these kids today, you know. I hate it, when we say it. We all choked on that when we said that.
ODUOLOWU: I do not. I say it loudly.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: If there is some sort of change that you are seeing -- you have been teaching how many years?
REID: 16 years.
PINSKY: And, have you seen a change in the character? And, by character I am using a very loose term, the quality of the students you are seeing, or
has it been pretty consistent?
REID: It has been pretty consistent. Again, it is how you run your classroom. It is how you --
PINSKY: So, you are not --
GOETZ: What do you teach? What grade?
REID: I teach 9th grade English and 9th through 12th leadership class.
GOETZ: And, so over this whole period of time, kids fight, right?
REID: I have had to break up the fights in my classroom.
GOETZ: I mean everyone keeps on talking about, "Oh, well, the kids these days." But kids have been fighting the whole time. You have got a whole
bunch of teenagers. You have hundreds of teenagers in the school and they are crazy, because teenagers are crazy. Every once in a while, they are
going to start fighting, like there is nothing new about that.
PINSKY: Right.
REID: Right. But, I have had to break up a physical fight in my classroom. And, you know, and I am not that strong of a female, but I was
able to come in between two male students, very large student and restrain him and walk him out of the classroom.
BLOOM: Good for you.
PINSKY: Yes. Good for you.
REID: And, another student called security immediately, and it was handled right away. But, I can tell you, when I went into the parent meeting, the
kid denied that it happened. He did not start the fight in my classroom and dad came in, you know, with a neck tattoo that said, "Only God can
judge me."
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Well, kudos to you. Kudos to you for running a classroom where you could do that. Like the kids actually listened to you.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: Absolutely.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: There is a testimony to her skill set.
All right. Next up, we are going to look at a principal, who himself is body slammed by a student. How did it get to is this point? We are
getting into it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:37:28]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(STUDENTS SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Students are scrambling and screaming while a fight is breaking out in Commons at Florin High. You see
a student wrestle and slam a grown man to the ground. That man is Florin High Principal, Don Ross, who gets right back on his feet and continues his
efforts to break up the fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a cell phone recording in Sacramento classroom. A student caught on camera body slamming the principal during a fight.
Eventually, a resource officer steps in and breaks the fight up. Back with Rolonda, AnneElise, Segun, Lisa and Erin. So, Segun, is it right for the
principal to get involved with that the way he did?
ODUOLOWU: I think he has to. You have to get involved in some way to break it up, but you do not want to bite off more than you can chew. I
mean this principal went in there and this kid is hopped up on rage and adrenaline and slams him to the ground. To the principal`s credit, he gets
right back up.
WATTS: Right back up.
ODUOLOWU: And, here is the thing that people do not realize how well trained that principal is. There are people who have gotten slammed -- who
would have immediately started throwing punches at the student.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
ODUOLOWU: Would have resorted into a street fight.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: His whole goal was to --
PINSKY: Safety.
ODUOLOWU: -- was to restrain this kid.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: So, that is -- My problem is, where are the other administrators and teachers and gym teachers and anybody else in that school?
PINSKY: Scared. I am scared watching it.
ODUOLOWU: That man could be --
PINSKY: It is reasonable to be scared.
ODUOLOWU: That man is much older and probably not the youngest guy on the campus. And, he is the only one who is brave enough to try and restrain at
all costs, restrain. It is a testament to him.
WATTS: At some point, the students are going to have to make a decision too, Dr. Drew. I mean, how many times are you going to stand by and watch
somebody be abused and not stand up and say something, do something? I am not quite sure what that is to do, but --
PINSKY: I am confused by what all the complaints are on college campuses about students not feeling safe and then I look at what is going on in high
school, that looks less safe than what is going on colleges and yet that is what they are complaining. Am I out --
BLOOM: Well, I think it is a different issue on colleges. They are talking about racial, micro-aggressions, you know gender law --
PINSKY: Those are -- I am looking at not micro-aggressions here.
BLOOM: No. That is true.
PINSKY: I think this is a little more serious here.
BLOOM: But, I mean I think it is apple and oranges. Of course, nobody is in favor of violence whether it is high school or college.
REID: You have to empower your students to take control of the school.
WATTS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
REID: And, especially at a high school. We do not give high school kids enough credit. You know, I teach bright, brilliant kids that would step
forward and change the culture of the school. When I started teaching at my school, we had a lot of gang issues 16 years ago. Now --
[21:40:00] PINSKY: Is that where you gone into these threats against you?
REID: No. Unfortunately -- I mean no, that was not -- that had nothing to do with gang.
PINSKY: What happened?
REID: To make a long story short, as my students always say, I talk too much. Kids at his table asked him to get his work out. I walked over to
administer with another group, and the students said, "You know, Ms. Reid, if you do not get your workout for Ms. Reid, you know, she is going to get
mad at you. You know, she is going to kill you. You better get your stuff out."
And, I heard the kid say, she is not going to kill me, because I will get a gun and I will shoot her. And, I kind of you know, you hear "gun" and
especially in a school, your ears perk up, your hair stands up on the back of your neck, and you I kind of turned around, and it was like a party
scene in a movie when all the music stops and it goes -- and everyone turns and looks.
And, so, we kind of looked at that one student and I walked over and I said, "You know, we are going to need to grab your stuff and let us take a
step outside." And he refused. And, I said, you know, you are making this way worse than it needs to be. Just, you know, let us go outside. All I
want to do is have a conversation with you.
PINSKY: But, let us be fair to trace back the genesis of all that, the parents.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
PINSKY: Again. Parents.
BLOOM: Well, I do not know a culture where every T.V. show and every movie where there is a problem, I am going to get a gun and go after that guy.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: So, where does the kid hear it?
REID: Right.
BLOOM: You know, that is his -- I am going to get a gun and come -- you know, and maybe he really meant it, maybe he did not.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, but the subterfuge of the parents, not wanting their kid to be stigmatized. I need parents to start seeing their kids for who their
kids really are.
PINSKY: Segun, you are so onto it, because that really is the core issue of everything we are talking about. We were trying to know, what is wrong
with these kids today? The wrong with the kids today is the parents.
ODUOLOWU: Absolutely.
PINSKY: I am not even talking about the destroyed families and the abuse. And, the sort of egregious circumstances in families. The fact that our
own narcissism, our narcissism, is such that we cannot stand to see our kids stigmatized because that stigmatizes us.
It is not stigmatizing the kid, it is getting that child what mere she needs given who they really need. We cannot even let our kids be who they
really are. Erin, you are nodding your head.
REID: No -- Yes. I cannot agree with it more. I mean -- this student -- This was not the first time he had an outburst. This was not the first
time he had an outburst at our school.
PINSKY: I feel sorry for that kid.
REID: And, he does not have the --
PINSKY: I feel sorry, but you -- But if feel sorry for that child.
REID: He does not have the intellectual capacity and does not have the tools to know how to deal with his own anger, his own rage. There is no
support for him at home, because the parents were in denial and no support for him at school because we are underfunded.
PINSKY: It is awful. There it is. I mean that is where the rubber hits the road. That is an exceptional example of it. But, it happens on -- We
are talking about micro aggressions, it happens on a microscopic level with most parents today, because it is our narcissism.
BLOOM: Can I just say something about what I like about what Erin said.
PINSKY: Please.
BLOOM: Erin, you can tell is a real teacher who cares about her kids. Because when she tells the story, she tells the story about a full human
being and what his background is, and who this kid is and where this comes from. It is not just these kids, or a kid made a threat, let us throw them
in the trash.
REID: This 15-year-old kid is now facing three felonies. So, it should not come --
PINSKY: AnneElise.
GOETZ: That is the problem. We look at it with the fight with the principal. Those three kids are facing criminal charges. And, what we
have is a society now where the legal is creating the boundaries for kids. And, that is not where it should come into play. That should be the last
resort.
PINSKY: I agree, get rid of lawyers.
(LAUGHING)
So, listen, I think we kind of -- we finally got to a good place with this. And, we kind of zeroing in on it, it should not be school to legal system.
REID: Right.
PINSKY: It should be back at the home. We all got to look at ourselves and the community. And, be more -- listen, this child could thrive. Just
because he has limitations in certain areas does not mean he is defective. You have to feel as though somehow he is stigmatized.
He needs special needs, And, they will be provided for him. Do not take him out of that. If he gets that, he can thrive in a different way than
what you need him to do. It is who he is and what he needs to thrive.
Next up, more mayhem in the classroom and on school buses. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:44:25] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Tonight ,we are talking about violence in our schools. Now, we know about many of those episodes because they were recorded. Everyone got
a camera and phone in their hand now. AnneElise, you got have one of the recordings.
GOETZ: Right. I got a video from a middle school science teacher in Connecticut. And, he was actually fired for the way that he responded to a
cussing student in his class, who refused to move. Let us watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ (voice-over): The teacher yanks the chair out from the student, causing him to fall to the ground. Claims that he had seen other teachers
use this, and I quote, "Technique," removing the chair to get a seated student to stand. The teacher is currently fired and being investigated by
the police and could face criminal charges.
PINSKY (voice-over): What would the charges be?
GOETZ (voice-over): Assault. Battery. Listen to how he explains the situation to NBC Connecticut.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE TEACHER: I never meant for that to happen. Never! I looked at him and I looked at the chair. Now, I know you are not supposed
to touch a student, OK? You do not do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you sorry for what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE TEACHER: Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel bad. I feel really bad about everything that has happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: He feels bad that he was caught. Let us be honest. Because he talks about it like this was a technique that he had seen other teachers
use. No teacher is using a technique of yanking a chair out from other student, and he got caught. That is really the bottom line is. He is sad
that he got caught.
PINSKY: I am sad when our teachers do things that we can no longer support.
[21L50:00] GOETZ: I do not. You support that?
ODUOLOWU: He is a professional liar.
PINSKY: I am just saying. You are a teacher, you could see it maybe a little bit clearly.
ODUOLOWU: Well, no. That is a professional liar. When you said, "I never intended for it to happen" and your other defense was, "I have seen other
teachers do it."
PINSKY: OK.
ODUOLOWU: Come on.
GOETZ: It is exactly what you thought was going to happen.
ODUOLOWU: Come on, you knew what you were doing.
GOETZ: The technique.
PINSKY: Rolonda?
WATTS: All right, not only are some classrooms running amuck as some school buses do, take a look at this. And, see if you think this is fair.
Trouble hits the road in the school bus down in Florida. The driver pulls over, calls for backup, when a fight breaks out.
But when the officers arrive, they are reportedly attacked by two sisters. They were not even involved in the fight that they came in. The officers
say they were attacked, but the girls` mother claims that one of the sister --
PINSKY: There it is.
WATTS: -- was defending the other one.
PINSKY: Wow.
WATTS: Then there they are. So, she claims or one of the --
PINSKY: The mom.
WATTS: -- daughters told the mom that she was just trying to remove the arm from around her sister`s neck, because the officer had her pinned and
she could not breathe.
PINSKY: Oh boy.
WATTS: And, the parents are saying, "Hey, look. My kids were just defending themselves. They were defending their sisters."
PINSKY: As officer Cheryl has taught me, you lay hands on an officer, bad things are going to happen.
WATTS: Bad things are going to happen, like they are facing felony charges, both of them.
PINSKY: Oh my goodness. Segun, what do you got?
ODUOLOWU: Well, I mean, fighting security guards and cops must be in vogue for students now. I have an 18-year-old, who beat up a security guard.
OK? The guard found the student roaming the hall after lunch and told him to get to class. A verbal fight ensued. Now, that looks like a grown man.
It does not look like a student. But, anyway --
PINSKY: That is the thing. Some of these guys are.
ODUOLOWU: Now, he allegedly punched the guard in the face seven to eight times. The teen was charged with aggravate assault and harassment.
PINSKY: That is the teen throwing the guard down?
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
PINSKY: Ooh!
ODUOLOWU: Come on, are you kidding me!
WATTS: Look at that. And, come on for some more.
ODUOLWOU: Now, the judge let the teen go on his own recognizance. And, that is not even the worst part. The student who filmed the fight did not
jump in and help. They just posted it to Facebook.
PINSKY: Look at this. He keeps going.
GOETZ: Listen. I am not going to jump in on that fight, though.
PINSKY: Thank God that woman stepped in. It looks like this is --
GOETZ: That lady just walked right by like it was no big deal, though.
PINSKY: But, then she walked right in calmly, though. She did walk in. This is the kind of thing we are looking for, more people to just assert
themselves, calm everybody down. Do not worry so much about what is being recorded.
ODUOLOWU: That 18-year-old young man slamming a grown man to the ground, who is supposed to secure the school. That is not a good thing to see. It
is not a good place to be.
PINSKY: No. Next up, a student appears to be roughed up by campus security, because she was smoking in a smoke-free zone. We will look at
that after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:57:20] PINSKY: A college student arrested for trespassing her philosophy class. She had been followed by campus police, who told her not
to smoke during a break outside the classroom. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
JACLYN PAZERA, FEMALE STUDENT WHO WAS TAKEN TDOWN BY TWO OFFICERS: I am not resisting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop resisting. Comply with our demands. Stop resisting. Stand up. Stand up. Stand up.
PAZERA: I will.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stand up. Stand up. Stand up.
PAZERA: I will.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop resisting. Stop resisting.
PAZERA: I am not resisting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop resisting.
PAZERA: Get off me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stop resisting.
PAZERA: Get off me, you guys are hurting me. Please get off me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, charges against the student have been dropped, but she filed a lawsuit against the school. AnneElise, it is so crazy when you look at
these things, they seem to have gone so far when somebody is being taken down like that. But, correct me if I am wrong. If an officer says to
stand up and you do not, is not that resisting an officer right then, boom, at that moment?
GOETZ: Right then. Right then.
PINSKY: Right then. Now, most officers will not resort to physical restraint at that point, will they?
GOETZ: They will not. That is legitimate police business. You stand up so they can conduct a search of you to see if you have anything on you.
PINSKY: For everybody?
GOETZ: Everyone.
PINSKY: As soon as they say, stand up, stand up.
GOETZ: Stand up.
PINSKY: OK. Segun, no?
ODUOLOWU: Well --
GOETZ: Well, yes. No, no.
ODUOLOWU: I just -- No. No.
GOETZ: Do not say "No."
ODUOLOWU: No. I am not saying -- Listen. Listen. If a cop tells me to stand up, I am standing up.
(LAUGHING)
GOETZ: OK.
WATTS: Stand up.
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: That is how my people typically wind up getting shot. But my problem are these kids that have invested themselves into a celebrity
culture, where I want to be famous even if it is for infamy or if it is wrong.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: I am not talented, but I can get clicks. I can go viral.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: And, now, she is doing a lawsuit. She was wrong. She was in the wrong. And, they asked her to stop smoking and she is like, "No, you
are not going to tell me what to do. I am a star, I do not do anything, but I am a star." Now she wants her 15 minutes of fame, and it is gross.
I mean, these kids --
WATTS: I think where you can really be a star today is when you exhibit leadership in the middle of the chaos. Who will the young people be who is
going to come up --
ODUOLWOU: That is not sexy, Rolonda.
WATTS: I know it is not sexy and I am Pollyanna, but if my school was in trouble, I would be a student who would stand up and say, "You all, we have
got to respect each other, we just got to do it."
ODUOLOWU: Come on.
WATTS: Seriously.
PINSKY: For the first time we are seeing fame as an autonomous motivator. Not I want to make money, I want to have a family, I want have a career. I
want to be famous, separate. It is internationally measurable now. And, it is the first time in social media is amplifying and infecting that
problem.
Reminder, we are on Snap Chat. With that, so, join us on social media, DrDrewHLN. Then you can also DVR us. You can watch us any time. Thank
you all for watching. We will see you next time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
