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Dr. Drew
Stories From the Transgender Community
Aired December 28, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:11] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening. Now, our entire show tonight will be dedicated to stories from the transgender community.
Our studio audience here by invitation is entirely transgender, and I welcome all of you.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
We are starting with Caitlyn Jenner, both an inspiring and controversial story. She recently received ESPN`s courage award. We are
going to debate on this show over whether she deserved it or not. Transgender woman, Zoey Tur and political blogger, Ben Shapiro, had a
confrontation. We did not expect this, but here is what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, POLITICAL BLOGGER: Every chromosome, every cell in Caitlyn Jenner`s body, is male with the exception of some of his sperm
cells.
(CROSSTALK)
ZOEY TUR, TRANSGENDER REPORTER: You do know --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: You are a doctor now?
SHAPIRO: It turns out that he still --
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: Wait a minute. Wait. I need to --
(LAUGHING)
SHAPIRO: It turns out that he still has all of his male appendages. But, how he feels inside in the inside is irrelevant to the question of his
biological side --
TUR: You do not know what you are talking about. You are not educated on genetics.
SHAPIRO: Are we going to discuss genetics --
PINSKY: No. No.
TUR: What are your genetics?
PINSKY: Zoey, let us stay away from the genetics and back to the brain scans.
TUR: You cut that out now or you will go home in an ambulance.
SHAPIRO: Yes, that seems mildly inappropriate for a political discussion.
TUR: You have to deal with people like this, the hatred.
SHAPIRO: I do not hate you. I feel terrible for you.
TUR: No. No. You do hate. You are consumed with hatred. That is who you are.
SHAPIRO: No.
TUR: You are a little man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now, Jessica Taylor, transgender airline pilot, first to transition and keep her license in order to keep flying. Vanessa
Barnett, HipHollywood.com; Mike Catherwood, my "Love Line" and KABC Radio co-host, also host of "Chain Reaction" on GSN.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
I am also very pleased to introduce Dr. Marci Bowers, an OB-GYN, who specialized in gender reassignment surgeries. I also have Ian Harvie,
transgender comedian. And, welcome, everybody. All right. Mike.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, MY "LOVE LINE" AND KABC RADIO CO-HOST AND HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: Yes.
PINSKY: You were there that fateful evening.
CATHERWOOD: I was. Yes, I was.
PINSKY: And, you actually stood up for Zoey once more.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I did. And, only because -- listen, I do not defend Zoey`s reaction to that. I think that to threaten violence did, you know,
cross the line. But at the same time, Ben Shapiro, like him or not for his political views, is a very smart guy. He knew exactly what he was doing,
and I think, you know, at that close proximity to consistently keep calling Zoey him --
PINSKY: Or sir.
CATHERWOOD: You know, he was pushing her buttons, and I just thought that, you know, he -- again, I want to make it very clear. I do not think
that Zoey should have threatened him with violence.
PINSKY: No, but, but, but --
CATHERWOOD: He knew exactly what he was getting himself into.
PINSKY: Bended. Jessica, do you have a reaction to that.
JESSICA TAYLOR, TRANSGENDER AIRLINE PILOT: Yes, absolutely. I think misgendering somebody is an act of violence. I do not honestly agree with
the way that she reacted to the misgendering, because she returned the violence. But, to be honest, it is violence for violence. Misgendering
somebody is an act of violence.
PINSKY: So for the person who does not maybe understand -- they are just ignorant, let us say.
TAYLOR: Sure.
PINSKY: What is the appropriate way to deal with people`s lack of understanding?
TAYLOR: You know, a lot of it is just patience or walking up to somebody that is presenting as a certain gender and asking them, what are
your preferred gender pronouns? And, they will give you an answer, typically, whether it is him, her, theirs. And, that is the first way to
start dialogue with somebody in that preferred, you know, setting of gender.
PINSKY: Vanessa is having her reaction.
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I just feel like that -- for me, I feel like that is dangerous territory. I do not know what questions are
appropriate. I do not know when I am going to come off as transphobic or any other phobic, BECAUSE I do not know.
PINSKY: So, you are somebody that may not understand the landscape. You are just afraid of --
BARNETT: Not may not. Do not.
PINSKY: Do not understand.
BARNETT: And have multitudes of questions.
PINSKY: After this show, we are going to straighten you all out.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, I feel like sometimes you cannot ask. I know for you --
TAYLOR: Sure.
PINSKY: I probably would feel comfortable. We have been talking. I feel comfortable probably asking you; but on the street, I see someone, no,
I am not going say, "Hey, I am not really sure how to approach this because you could be called some names yourself."
TAYLOR: But I feel like that is the good part of it that you have the opportunity to just walk up and show the person love and not call their
gender out in the forefront.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let us go to the audience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is not too hard. I mean people asking your name all the time. And, that really all comes down to, if you
are not sure, ask them what their name is and call them their name.
PINSKY: Yes, you know --
BARNETT: It is more about the reaction. I think --
TAYLOR: We all have one. It is that simple.
BARNETT: I do not think everyone is that open. I think sometimes, it may come across as if I am not just ignorant but also not wanting to
understand. I think for certain people, it may not be a conversation they are ready to have. They do not want you asking, do you prefer this or
that, because they may think it is none of your business. So, I do not think everyone is as approachable as maybe you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, everybody is approachable to what their name is, am I wrong? I mean everybody has a name and are
preferred to be called that.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: No. no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Like my name is Blue.
BARNETT: This is a little different. You know this is different.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, so, it does not really matter if you call me he, her, it. My name is Blue. And, that really is all that
should matters, a person is name. As far as Zoey goes, she has made other comments like that transgender matters because they are PCOS. So, she is
really not educated all about the transgender community.
[21:05:13] PINSKY: And, listen, Zoey -- I consider Zoey a friend. This whole thing broke my heart. She really is well-meaning and she is
trying to understand all the varieties of manifestations that is the transgender experience, and she very much tries to get into the biology and
that is where the PCOS thing came from. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. With all due respect to our woman of color, there is no way that you cannot understand
prejudice, what it is like to be looked at in a certain way. And, when people constantly say it is way over my head, that is a big excuse, OK? We
are all human beings.
BARNETT: No. That is not --
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. Wait, wait, wait, I am talking, miss, miss. This is my chance.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: Please continue. Please continue.
PINSKY: One at a time.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. We are all human beings and we all deserve respect. It is none of your business if I am
walking down the street and you want to know what I am or whatever --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: Point -- Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- And, it is none of my business to say --
BARNETT: And that is point.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Do you wear weave?
BARNETT: That is my point.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: My whole point is it is none of our business. Let us just all treat people with respect.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: And, then you have the next person --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, Vanessa.
BARNETT: -- saying open up to me and ask me questions. No, I do not think it is the same, because I was born black and you feel like you were
born a certain way.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I do not feel like I know I was.
BARNETT: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK? There is not --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: That is your truth.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: No it is not.
BARNETT: That is your truth.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Honey.
BARNETT: And, to tell me that, that is not over my head with the last person just got up saying PCOS, that is over my head. And, I do have
questions.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. You are an educated woman.
BARNETT: What is PCOS?
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Stop playing the stupid card.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: I have no idea what that is.
PINSKY: Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. It is all right.
BARNETT: Thank you. That is over my head.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: You have learned.
PINSKY: This is exactly what Vanessa wanted to avoid. This is why she is --
BARNETT: Bring it on, I can take it.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I know you can take it, but you were just saying how you wanted to avoid. I am sure of that. But, this is what we wanted to avoid.
I mean you were just saying you wanted to not ask the wrong question and you did the wrong thing. And, so --
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: There are people dying because people are asking questions. There are people, so I lived 25
years like this. I grew up in Des Moines, Iowa, where it was scary just to walk down the street.
So, I am passionate but I am standing up for the girls who did not make it out of the cornfield or who are not here. So, I am not calling
anybody names. I am not threatening violence, but there is passion in my voice.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: I get passion, but first you did just call me stupid. And, secondly --
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: I did not call you an ignorant.
BARNETT: I can oppose. I can have a great conversation with you --
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did I say stupid?
BARNETT: No. She literally.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: No. I did not say stupid.
BARNETT: Run it back. Run the playback.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Run it.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Run it, please.
BARNETT: You said the word, "Stupid."
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Come on, girl, bring it.
CATHERWOOD: Wait. Please. Wait. Hold on.
BARNETT: But you cannot say that you are not defensive --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am not defensive. I have lived --
BARNETT: Exactly. But, Vanessa, I can ask you question.
PINSKY: Hold on. One at a time. One at a time.
BARNETT: You are proving my point. I cannot ask a question.
CATHERWOOD: Hold on. Hold on, ladies. In fairness, Dr. Drew and I, we host a radio show that deals exclusively with topics of sexual and
cultural and social nature. And, oftentimes we have had trans guests and things like that and we have been discussing Caitlyn Jenner.
And very, very well-meaning, ally supporters of the trans community will accidentally make a mistake in referring to someone as the wrong
pronoun. And, I think that, that is a big, big difference than someone who intentionally --
BARNETT: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: If someone called me he, that is really offensive at this point in my transition.
CATHERWOOD: Of course it is.
PINSKY: Right.
CATHERWOOD: Of course it is. But if you are listening on the radio or if they are not familiar with you as person, or if they were to know
someone like Caitlyn Jenner for 40 years as a man to every once in a while to make a mistake in language, I think is a great difference --
PINSKY: OK. We have to --
CATHERWOOD: -- than someone who intentionally wants to hurt people.
PINSKY: Mike. Mike, we have to stop. We have to hold this. We have to hold it. I appreciate your comments, I really do. And, thank you for
your passion. Mike, thank you for trying to straighten this out. Vanessa, I feel where you are, because I sometimes -- That is why I was so anxious
to put this pin out. Look -- if I make a mistake, please understand.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: And, you -- I know you are the same. And here we are. So, next up, we are going to switch gears a little bit and talk about Caitlyn
Jenner. She does not necessarily speak for the entire gender community. In fact, some do not believe she represents them at all. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:09:08] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHANDI MOORE, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: Yes, Cait, that happens all the time, a day in the life of being trans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNY BOYLAN, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: Caitlyn, she wants to be our savior, but most people do not have what she
has, and she may be oblivious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN RICHARDS, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: I do not think in history anyone has ever been so publicly welcomed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOYLAN: Living in the bubble is an impediment to understanding other people. If Cait is going to be a spokesperson for our community, this is
something she is going to have to understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARDS: Everything Cait says is going to receive far more attention than anything anyone else in the community will say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOSSOM BROWN, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: You have these transgender women of color who are going out here and we are
basically saying the same thing you were doing and like --
CAITLY JENNER, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND MAIN STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: And nobody is listening.
BROWN: -- nobody wanted to hear it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNER: I feel tremendous responsibility here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNER: Am I going to do everything right. Am, I going to say the right things. Do I project the right image?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNER: I just hope I get it right. I hope I get it right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And we were discussing what it is like to be transgender in America and some of the biggest issues facing those individuals. And,
everyone in our audience tonight, in our studio audience here is transgender.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Thank you all. Thank you for being here. Thank you for participating. I am back with Jessica, Vanessa, Mike, Dr. Bowers and Ian.
I am going to go straight out to Ian. Ian, Is Caitlyn a great representative for the transgender community?
[21:15:00] IAN HARVIE, TRANSGENDER COMEDIAN: I -- that is a hard question, because I think when we have role models, we, all -- and
especially in the trans community we expect them to represent all of us, but ultimately, she represents herself.
PINSKY: Right.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
HARVIE: So --
PINSKY: Is it -- But is this --
HARVIE: But -- but, I do think that she is conveying a lot of new information --
PINSKY: Yes.
HARVIE: -- to a generation of people that is really important to reach with this. People my parents` age that have known Jenner for over
four decades. So, I think there is value in that. But, I think the bigger story here is all the trans women that are on that show with her, I think
that is the bigger story.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Why is that?
HARVIE: Because you have -- you have women -- transwomen of color on there taking her to task, talking to her about the real issues that
transwomen face. And, actually, I feel really terrible that you would just asked me about this and I am a trans guy. I think you should be asking
other trans women about this and not me.
I am a privileged trans white man. And, I think that if someone else here could probably -- a trans woman here could probably speaks to that a
little better than me. I think -- But I do think that the really great story here, is all those other trans women really kind of outing her for
all of her privilege.
PINSKY: We are actually going to dedicate an entire show to trans women of different ethnicities, particularly of color, because we
understand that is dangerous right now. That is actually a very, very significant population. I appreciate you saying that.
HARVIE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me read you some tweets that have been in response to all this. Natalie tweeted, quote, "It offends me as a woman that Caitlyn
thinks that is all there is to our identities - clothes, makeup and bathing suits. Womanhood is not a game of dress up!" unquote. Let us get a
comment from exactly what you are asking for there, Ian. Yes, ma`am.
MARIA, TRANSGENER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, I Maria. So, I think -- I have been watching the show, and I do think that there is some value to
the fact that we are seeing all these transgender -- a lot about it, we are seeing all those transgender women that are sort of taking healing through
this journey,
However, I think I think it is sort of romanticizing, creates a sort of fairytale, where we saw then-Bruce Jenner leave and all of a sudden come
back this beautiful woman. We keep on hearing how people say how beautiful she is, but you know how much money has to take him for her to look that
way. Something that most transgender women do not have access to have.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Right.
MARIA: You know, the way -- the way I look today has taken me thousands of dollars to look this way, and I have had to do some crazy
(EXPLETIVE WORD). Sorry, I cannot curse here.
(LAUGHING)
Some crazy stuff in my life to be able -- sorry -- to be able to afford to be, to look the way I look today. So, I -- I think it is
important, but let us really talk about the issues. Access for people to be able to have full transition.
Not a vagina, not just top surgery but to have full facial feminization, something that predominantly white women have access to
because many of them who have transition later in life. So, I hope --
PINSKY: OK. Thank you. I appreciate that. I was talking to Dr. Bowerss.
DR. MARCI BOWERS, OB-GYN SPECIALIZED IN GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERIES: Can I --
PINSKY: No. Stay right there. You are mic`d up.
DR. BOWERS: Could I have --
PINSKY: Apparently, you have a microphone, so you do not need that handheld thing. You are good.
DR. BOWERS: No mic.
PINSKY: No mic. You do not need a mic.
DR. BOWERS: Well, here is the thing. I mean the power that Caitlyn has is that she was, for all intents and purposes one of the most beloved
athletes of the 20th century. And, so people had a great deal of respect for her as a man, as an athlete. And, so, the fact that she is
transitioned to a woman, this is what is really raised the bar. And, allowed all of America to react and respond to this change.
PINSKY: And, you have been doing surgeries for how long for transgender?
DR. BOWERS: 12 years.
PINSKY: 12 years. And, so, you have seen the sort of the lights come on.
DR. BOWERS: Oh -- but this is the truth is that, you know, she is coming into it very naive. I mean the fact that --
PINSKY: She is naive.
DR. BOWERS: Caitlyn.
PINSKY: Caitly.
DR. BOWERS: Caitlyn is naive about what the struggles have been, what it was like. When I went in and began transgender surgery, I took out more
life insurance, because I was worried about my family that somebody would, you know --
PINSKY: What is that?
DR. BOWERS: -- not take kindly.
PINSKY: Dr. Bowers, what is that? What --
DR. BOWERS: You know, this pushes buttons for people. And, we are, we are emerging. We are beginning to unlayer the onion. We are beginning
to get into the deeper aspects of the soul. But make no mistake, I think the transgender process is very, very important, because it does shed light
on gender, gender roles and what humanity is all about. I think it is a very positive thing for the future if people come to understand it. And,
it is very important that the world understand it.
PINSKY: Well, I certainly -- you guys would agree that Caitlyn has pushed this thing -- we would not be doing the show.
CATHERWOOD: It would not be this show.
BARNETT: Right.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
CATHERWOOD: Yes. I agree totally. But, I think as someone who is not from the trans community, it touched on something in this conversation that
I think is very important to point out. That the "I Am Caitlyn", the show, does not necessarily dive into what it means to be a woman.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Right.
CATHERWOOD: A kind of dances around the idea of the --
PINSKY: Appearances.
CATHERWOOD: -- the more kind of romanticized idea of --
PINSKY: Appearances.
CATHERWOOD: -- shopping and --
BARNETT: Shoes.
CATHERWOOD: -- clothing and makeup.
PINSKY: Vanessa, can you ask any questions about this.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: Well, I will say because I have been doing more research lately.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: I will say that what the show, as far as I know may be missing. I have heard her say a few times about the dangerous aspects.
But I think that is the bigger issue. I think everyone can agree that everyone deserves health care. Everyone deserves to feel safe no matter
what side of the topic you are on. And, so I feel like that is more of the issue that maybe the show is not really touching at all.
PINSKY: Jessica.
TAYLOR: Yes. You know, it is funny, because the first person to ask me about this was one of my passengers. They got on my airplane and said,
"Listen, I feel like I can relate to you because of Caitlyn Jenner`s transition.
And, I feel like it is closed the gap between myself, the transgender community and kind of the people that did not understand this, that now
they feel the freedom to ask these questions, and that is brand new. And, just because Caitlyn Jenner is not your hero, she is someone. Someone`s
life will get saved because of it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: We have very short period of time, but go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: As far as Caitlyn goes, I think that her journey is hers.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED TRANSGENDER WOMAN AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, it is not everybody`s. And, transgender is not about just transformation. It is
about struggle. It is about living your life comfortable.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you for that. Now, we are going to switch again and talk to a transgender actress, who starred in the movie "Hang Over II,"
here to talk about a very serious subject, which is sex work in the transgender community. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:37] DRIAN JUAREZ, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: I was doing sex work. That was the only way I could
transition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Whenever someone sees a transgender person, the first thing they are going to think is, "Oh, they are a prostitute." You know what I
mean. It is sex work or whatever. But what people do not understand --
JENNER: Is that what they are going to think of me?
(LAUGHING)
ANGELICA ROSS, TRANSGENDER WOMAN AND STAR IN "I AM CAIT" T.V. SERIES: Not you, girl.
BROWN: Yes, not you.
(LAUGING)
JENNER: Oh, my God, all of a sudden -- I am shocked. Wait a second.
BROWN: Yes. But, see, what people do not understand is the reason why some of us do turn to sex work is because people would not hire us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOORE: Cait thinks that because she read a couple pages in a book that she is in the know, but she does not get it. She does not realize how
common sex work stories are. She could never understand how it would feel to walk in those shoes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back to our audience. As we have said is made up entirely of transgender individuals and we have invited them to share their
stories in the hopes to gain a better understanding for all of the issues facing trans people in America.
Back with me, Jessica, Vanessa, Mike, Dr. Bowers, Ian. And, joining us, Yasmin Lee, a transgender actress, who appeared in the movie "Hangover
II." Now, Yasmin, what are the misconceptions -- thank you for sharing your story, by the way.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
YASMIN LEE, TRANSGENDER ACTRESS: Hello. Hello.
PINSKY: Hello there. What are the misconceptions about transgender individuals and sex trade?
LEE: There is -- I do not want to say there is many misconception, except that there are varieties. And, first and foremost, I want to say
like I am such a big fan of Cait. I think she is an amazing woman. I think that her telling her story is, absolutely, beautiful and for her to
be brave enough to share her story being in the position that she was.
With trans women, the facts are, 63 percent of us will be discriminated in the workplace. 90 percent -- in a very, very extreme
level. I mean, to the point where we might lose our job. We might not, and this is for those who can actually get the job in the beginning. Many
trans women, if you are dressed up, or if there is any inclinations that you are a trans woman, I can bet you, you will not be hired.
So, when you are left to be homeless, when you are left to be stranded, when you are abandoned, when the whole world is against you and
you turn to love. You turn to this man that you want to spend the rest of your life with, and you find out that most of these men do not want
anything to do with you except for, you know, sex or whatnot. And, then they return back to their life the very, very next day.
PINSKY: Or is there prejudice against the men who are attracted to transgender women?
LEE: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
(AUDIENCE APLAUDING)
PINSKY: What is the -- what is the --
LEE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: What is that?
LEE: Because we have no choice but to live our life as trans women, you know. I, myself, was at the point of, if I do not get to be who I am,
I rather just die. I rather not live.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: And, you were actually -- you were in the military, right?
LEE: I was in the military.
PINSKY: You are in the navy.
LEE: Yes. That is when I started my -- slowly started my transition.
PINSKY: And, did you experience problems there in the workplace?
LEE: Well, I left under honorable discharged for being discriminated again. I mean I was constantly harassed. I was not physically harassed
but I was verbally insulted every single day that I was trying to do my job.
And, when I went to my commander to challenge, "Do not ask/do not tell" and tell them my story, tell them how I need to stop the harassment,
apparently, they only care that you tell. They do not care who is asking.
PINSKY: I see. Got it. Well, thank you for sharing your story. Appreciate it. Do you ever worry that men that are interested in
transgender women are fetishizing?
TAYLOR: Yes, absolutely. I see it all the time.
PINSKY: So, there -- and then the women get blamed as though if they are fetishizing themselves, right?
TAYLOR: Yes -- well, you are dressing up, so you can attract that negative attention. It is all my fault. It is all our fault because we
are dressing up and we are portraying ourselves as these quote-unquote, "Sex Fetishes."
PINSKY: Interesting. I also have Ann Thomas, a transgender woman, working as a waterjet machinist on Project for John Hopkins University and
NASA. She also appeared in the transgender choir featured on "Glee." And, you had a really interesting story about your father at the end of his
life, did you not?
ANN THOMAS, TRANSGENDER WOMAN, WORKING AS A WATERJET MACHINIST ON PROJECT FOR JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY AND NASA: Yes. I knew as a child
that something was different about me, because I wanted to be more feminine. And, as I was growing up in my -- by the time I hit my pre-teen
and teen years, I was doing it a lot but hiding it. And, then -- But I was raised in a very strict religious family.
[21:30:01] And, so then we, I just had to hide who I was completely or I would be completely ostracized from my family. I hid it so well, but
nobody knew, through my 20s and into my 30s. And, then it just, I ended up getting a divorce for completely other reasons than cross-dressing, which
is what I thought it was at the time.
And, during an exploration time, I tried to figure out who I was. And, I figured out that I was different, that I was -- and I did not even
know what the word transgender was, because this was back in about 2000.
But at the same time, my dad was dying of cancer and I went in to his house and discovered that when -- I went to clean it out when he was dying
for cancer two months away, he was 67 years old when he died, that he was doing the same thing I was, I thought and I was not quite sure.
So, I went to the hospital and asked him, and I am sure enough, he was. He admitted to me and told me his story, and it was much the same as
mine, that he had done the same thing of wanting to do it as a child and suppressing it through adulthood. And, then, finally, it comes back like a
big tidal wave later in life, and that is what happened to me.
He was never able to embrace who he really was. I have luckily been able to. But at the same time, I have not been able to do any of the
things, nor I really have that much desire to, to do all the things that Caitlyn has done in such a short time, but like many of you, I am a white
male, you know, originally, but I have not been able to afford all these surgeries. And -- you know.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: So, let me ask Dr. Bowers. She does these surgeries. Is there -- you know, insurance is increasingly gaining -- allowing access or
at least may be Medical? Medicare or whatever, Medicaid? Insurances, no?
DR. BOWERS: It is dramatic. I mean 12 years ago when I first started doing transgender surgery, there was virtually no one covered by insurance.
Now, we have nine states, including California that mandated for employers to cover it for employees.
PINSKY: But, that is for the sexual reassignment. Does that include what --
DR. BOWERS: But there are many -- but also increasingly breast augmentation and even facial feminization surgery, which is arguably the
most important surgery for some, because that is the first thing we see.
PINSKY: And Ann`s story makes me think of another issue, which is the genetics of transgender. Is there any hint about that yet? Have you seen
what kind of story Ann was talking about?
DR. BOWERS: There are studies of twins that show that identical twins, there is an increased likelihood of the second of the twin also, you
know, feeling that. But, of course, much of this is dictated not just by genetics but also by environment and perhaps diet, even.
There are -- there are estrogen modulators out in the environment. There are, you know -- so there are a lot of factors that go into why it is
there, but I think it is just part of biology. It is part of who we are as nature.
And, if you think about it, when it comes to biology, where else in biology are there only two choices but with gender. And, we know this,
that as an obstetrician it is striking that there are not just penises and vaginas, if I can say that on the air.
BARNETT: I have a question.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, there is butthole.
(LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: You got -- you got to hold it. Vanessa, you got to hold it. Next up, a teenage transgender activist who will tell us the special
challenges younger people face, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:38:01] ZACKARY DRUCKER, TRANSGENDER WOMAN: You know, the trans community is a community in peril.
PINSKY: In peril?
DRUCKER: In peril.
PINSKY: Why?
DRUCKER: You know, violence against transpeople is staggering. It is very hard for transpeople to gain employment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AURORA PERSICHETTI, TRANSGENDER WOMAN: The way that we are created, trans people, I was born with a female brain. You do a CAT scan of us, we
were born with brain of a man, brain of a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SACHA PERSICHETTI, TRANSGENDER MAN: I personally have gone through calling myself all those things. Thinking I am messed up. I should not
love myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIS CAYNE, TRANSGENDER ACTRESS: I did not wake up, you know, when I was a kid and be completely present in who I was as my identity. I had
to search my soul on a daily basis and try to figure out who I was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JADE PONCE, TRANSGENDER WOMAN: At the end of the day, it is a transition, not just for you, not just for me, for the people around you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about the aspiring and sometimes painful stories of transgender Americans. Every member of our studio say or a
studio audience is a member of the transgender community.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
I am back with Jessica, Vanessa, Mike, Dr. Marci Bowers and Ian. And, joining us with her personal story, Zoey Luna, a 14-year-old transgender
activist. Zoey, tell us about what you had to face.
ZOEY LUNA, A 14-YEAR-OLD TRANSGENDER GIRL/ACTIVIST: Well, since I was very little, I always knew that I was a girl. My mom always knew, too.
It was very obvious. I never was nonchalant about it. My dad on the other hand was not very accepting.
His last conversation with me before he passed was, you know, "You are a boy and you are going to stay a boy." And, you know, "Do not be gay,"
because that is, you know, what he knew at the time, not transgender. You know, it was -- my mom always was there for me. I feel that I could not be
as confident and comfortable with myself today if I did not have my mom`s support. I feel like --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: I imagine that you had to do some -- convincing or research to find physicians that would help you transition in such a young age.
LUNA: That was not like, up to me, I think my mom was someone who really searched online. I remember every day from work when we were, you
know, getting ready for me to transition, it was her on the computer searching for help. And, so, I feel like that is, you know, that is what
she did. That is how she found out.
[21:40:16] PINSKY: How do kids treat you at school?
LUNA: The kids are great. You know, some of the boys are an issue, but you know -- I never really had a problem with the kids. It is mainly
been the teachers.
PINSKY: The teachers?
LUNA: But that is when I was in fifth grade. Yes.
PINSKY: What happened?
LUNA: In fifth grade I was, you know, being discriminated because, you know, I put my hair up in a ponytail or I braided it or something like
that. And, you know, their religious beliefs, because from what I remember it was a catholic school, right? No, it was not, it was a public school.
So, it was -- you know, it was really -- they just could not accept me, because they had their beliefs, and so --
PINSKY: The teachers.
LUNA: Yes, and the principal and this -- what is that other thing? Like -- no, like the step-principal.
PINSKY: Assistant.
LUNA: Yes. So, like -- yes, so I did not really, yes. They had a really hard time with it. But, then, I -- you know, we won the case
against our district.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
So, we won the case. So, we are getting all the staff in the school district educated on transgender youth. And, you know, I think it was
published in the Downey Patriot or something like that, that is where I live. And, I have been doing a lot of work on how to help trans youth and
how to, you know, create awareness and create a change for trans youth.
PINSKY: Thank you, Zoey. I really appreciate to work with you. But, quickly, I imagine treating younger and younger populations is sort of an
issue. Is that something that is still sort of a work in progress and what age people should be identified and treated?
DR. BOWERS: Well, we know very clearly that gender is established at a very early age. And, in fact, the patients that come to me for surgery
later in life relate overwhelmingly that they felt wrongly gendered by age 5 or 6 in most cases.
PINSKY: This is what we learned from Caitlyn Jenner.
DR. BOWERS: Yes.
PINSKY: She tells a story about that.
DR. BOWERS: And, we see this as younger and younger media portrayals of young people coming out to their parents. We are realizing now that it
is not -- This is something that is not psychological but biological. And, that this is just something that is hardwired. Cases where there is
parents, four kids, four boys, one says she is Jessica, you know?
PINSKY: Right. Where that come from?
DR. BOWERS: Raise them all the same.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. BOWERS: They are just hardwired. They are different.
PINSKY: Yes. I also have Michelle Evans, she is with her wife of 28 years, Cherie. And, Michelle, what was it like -- what was the process of
coming out with your wife with this?
MICHELLE EVANS, TRANSGENDER WIFE: Well, I mean I have known since I was a little kid just like Zoey that, you know, this is who I am. But,
there was no word for it then, and I learned how to hide. I really did. And, unfortunately, I had to go through many years of testosterone
poisoning, because I was not allowed to transition in that age.
And, then this one day that, you know, I ended up being thrown into this situation where I met Cherie. And, for whatever reason, I still have
no idea how she got it out of me, because I had never spoken openly about it to anyone before. I am sitting there telling her on the very first day
we met that I am transgender. I am really a woman.
PINSKY: And, you never told anybody that.
EVANS: I had never openly talked about that with anybody. I had been in the Air Force. I really had to hide when I was in the air force, all
these kind of things and here I am telling her. And, the really amazing thing about it is that she did not runaway, and she still has not runaway.
We have been together for 34 years.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Wow.
EVANS: We have been married for 28.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Inspiring, this story. Thank you, Michelle.
EVANS: She is the person who saved my life.
PINSKY: Interesting.
EVANS: She is.
PINSKY: So, I should thank Cherie, not you Michelle.
EVANS: Oh, absolutely. She helped make my book possible, everything. She is amazing. I mean, it is something that is interesting with people
like her. You know, she is in aviation as a pilot. I am in aerospace.
All these kinds of things, I wrote a book about the "X-15 Rocket Plane." Everybody is like, "What is a woman, let alone a transwoman doing
writing this kind of stuff," you know? So, we are all over the place. And, we are really good, smart people. Thank you.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Thank you, Michelle. Next up, some religious leaders, including a popular T.V. preacher are convinced that these transgender is
merely a choice. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:44:40] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds. Tonight, it is a
little different. All the stories will be issues pertinent to the transgender community. Mike, you are first.
CATHERWOOD: All right, so, Pat Robertson took timeout --
PINSKY: Wait. Shocking!
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: Pat Robertson had something to say about this.
CATHERWOOD: The 85-year-old confuses gender identity with sexual preference. A viewer of the "700 Club" had a question about sexuality for
the former Southern Baptist minister. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY MEEUWSEN, CO-HOST OF THE "700 CLUB": This is Ian, who says, "I am really in deep confusion and I really need answers. Can God take away
the same sex attraction? Can God change a homosexual to straight?"
PAT ROBERTSON, HOST OF THE "700 CLUB": We have had people on this program. There was one guy, I will never forget him, because he came -- we
show him as a woman. And, as a woman, he was absolutely gorgeous. I mean gorgeous, but he was a man. And, the lord touched him, changed him. And,
now, he is married, and has some children and has a very happy life. Yes, God can. It is a miracle, but God can do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Can God make my penis grow? I am tired.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:50:00] PINSKY: All right, Jessica, you got one.
TAYLOR: Awesome. Well, this is a really awesome one. Transgender acceptance in college fraternity are two terms not normally linked
together, but this time they are. Sig Phi Epsilon, one of the country`s largest fraternities has officially opened membership to people who
identify as transgender.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
As our audience knows, in essence, if you were born female but identify as male, Sig-Ep welcomes you to join their fraternity. The motion
was passed by Sig-Ep board of directors with an overwhelming 8-0 votes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Well done. I mean, this right here is the leading edge of not only corporations and governments and other things that we are seeing as far as
insurances change their policies on things that are so simple that relate to our community.
PINSKY: Cheers. Well done. Nice Sig-Ep. Vanessa.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: Speaking of insurance and health, the transgender community is using Twitter to help people understand the struggles they face when it
comes to health care.
And, they are using the #TransHealthFail to relay those struggles. And, so, one transgender woman tweeted a conversation she had with her
doctor and the doctor returned her quote. "I do not know how to treat a transgender." She said to her doctor --
PINSKY: I would rather the doctor say that than try to do something they do not know to do.
BARNETT: Well, but this is the problem. She told the doctor, "I am here about a joint pain that I have had since before starting hormone
replacement therapy." So, it did not even correlate.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Oops.
BARNETT: Another transperson tweeted, quote, "General practitioner receptionist says there is nothing they can do about your full legal name
on a big screen in the waiting room before they call you."
PINSKY: What?
BARNETT: Yes. So, the hash tag was started by mytranshealth.com. It`s goal is to help the transgender population find quality, understanding
health care professionals, which everyone should have.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: There you go. All right, my "Click Fix" after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:56:35] PINSKY: The increasing visibility of transgender individuals has given trans youth the courage to transition at younger
ages. A new film follows a teen`s change from female to male. It is called "About Ray." It stars 17-year-old actress, Elle Fanning. Have a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW POLK, AS DR. BRILLSTEIN IN THE FILM "ABOU RAY": There may be mood swings, and you will see a drop in your menstrual cycle.
ELLE FANNING, 17-YEAR-OLD ACTRESS AS RAY IN THE FILM "ABOUT RAY": Thank God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BRILSTEIN: This is the first consent form, which needs to be signed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN SARANDON, AS DOLLY: Why cannot she just be a lesbian?
NAOMI WATTS, AS MAGGIE IN THE FILM "ABOUT RAY": Because she is not a lesbian, mom. She is a boy!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yoh, Ray! Let me talk to you for a second.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATTS AS MAGGIE: Oh my God! You are bleeding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATTS AS MAGGIE: You got into a fight.
FANNING AS RAY: I am not starting a new school in this body. I am just not.
WATTS AS MAGGIE: Maybe they would make an exception.
FANNING AS RAY: I am done with being an exception.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now Jessica, she is not a transgender individual. She is straight? Normy? What do we call that?
TAYLOR: You know -- Yes, let us say, sisgender.
PINSKY: Sisgender.
TAYLOR: Yes.
PINSKY: I got to remember that.
TAYLOR: Right.
PINSKY: Thank you for straighten me out. She is sisgender and there are a lot of actresses and actors like -- what was the transgender --
TAYLOR: Laverne Cox?
PINSKY: No. No. No. The man that played a transgender woman?
CATHERWOOD: Jeffrey Tambor.
PINSKY: Tambor, played and he is a sisgender. Is there any issues with that. Is that cool? Or is that --
TAYLOR: No. I think it hurts our feelings, because I think there is plenty of talented women. I mean as you can see and men in the audience,
and around the world. And, I think it is just a lack to find it.
PINSKY: Ian want to comment about this. We got to light on him.
HARVIE: I agree with Jess. There is an issue. The issue is an employment issue that there -- Hollywood is not employing enough trans
people. That is a fact. Absolutely.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
But I am also on the same show as Jeffrey Tambor. I am on "Transparent." And, I am a trans guy playing a transman. But, if I were
to only play trans roles, I mean that would be very limiting for me as well.
So, I do think that people can play trans roles with respect and with guidance of trans people. But trans people absolutely need to be hired in
Hollywood. There is no question about it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Thank you, Ian. So, first of all, I want to say, thank you, Jessica. Thank you -- you learned something, Vanessa.
BARNETT: I did. Thank you.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You were straighten a little bit and we are good. Are you feeling more comfortable asking questions and things?
BARNETT: Of certain people, depends on who.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Just ask Jessica if there is any trouble.
BARNETT: I do. I do.
PINSKY: OK. All right. But, mostly, I want to thank our studio audience. We really appreciate you, guys.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
I will wear my pin with pride. And, please straighten me out if I ask any questions that are inappropriate or if I can ally in better or
effective ways. A reminder to our television audience, we are on SnapChat. Please join us there.
You will see some of the behind the scenes action here tonight. It is @DrDrewHLN. DVR us then you can watch us anytime. I want to thank you all,
panelists. Thank you all, audience studio here, and thank you all for watching. We will see you next time.
. [22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
END
