Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
A Noise Complaint Against University Of Alabama Student Resulted In Cops Beating And Tasing One Young Man Recently, A Police Body Cam And witnesses` Cell Phone Recorded; A Homeless Man Shot And Killed By Police; Black Man Decides To Go On A Midnight Jog And He Got Stop By Police; A Black University Dean Was Stopped In Her Affluent Dallas Suburb By Two White Officers Broad Daylight; A Black Teen Holds The Door At An ATM For A White Female, Who Then Reports This Kid To The Authorities, Which Leads Officers To Handcuff Not Just Jason, But His Friend As Well
Aired January 25, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:12] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: We are spending the hour on policing, what is right, what is wrong and why there are so many
controversial incidents caught on video. And, I dare say since the San Bernardino event, perhaps this conversation has changed.
A 3:00 A.M., a noise complaint against University of Alabama student resulted in cops beating and tasing one young man recently. A police body
cam and witness` cell phone recorded that. Take a look .
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Let me explain to you what was going on, OK? You are playing your music extremely loud.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: I am not coming down there. I am sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Come here. Come here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Let me explain something to you, buddy. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: No, no, no. No, sir. I will not come out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Excuse me. Excuse me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Please, let me explain something to you, partner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Excuse me. You are illegally entering.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: Oh my God. Sir, sir, what is the point?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE STUDENT: Sir. Sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: Why do you treat him like that? What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: He is under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Stand up. Stand up, now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What is he under arrest for? What is he under arrest for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sir, it is on video --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get out, you (EXPLETIVE WORD). Get down. Get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stop. Stop. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, stop!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He has not done anything! He has not done anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down! Get down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Three of the students were arrest. Three police were put on paid leave. An internal investigation continues presently. Joining us,
Sam Schacher, "Pop Trigger" on Hulu.com; Areva Martin, Attorney and Legal Analyst; John Cardillo in studio with us, WJNO Radio Host, former NYPD
Officer; Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist and Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD (Ret.), author of "The Creation of a Manifesto: Black &
Blue."
And, John and Cheryl in the same room, no shenanigan. Put your guns outside gentlemen and ladies. John, I will go to you first. So, it is a
pleasure having you here with us.
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER AND WJNO RADIO HOST: Great to be here.
PINSKY: Is this acceptable procedure? Do we know what we are looking at here?
CARDILLO: Well, I do not think we know what we are looking at. And, they were called for a complaint. The minute the kid became noncompliant,
it was indicative of all kinds of things. I can tell you several incidents in NYPD, where cops going to simple domestics, wound up dead.
My old partner is a very good friend died after a shard of a mirror cut his femoral artery. And, that was a nonviolent domestic over the
radio. So, I think cops -- you know, over the years --
PINSKY: I am missing your point. Is your point that you never know what you are getting into?
CARDILLO: You never know what you are getting into. When they close that door, the suspicion comes up. And, now what is going on, if this is a
simple noise complaint, why do not they just lower the music?
PINSKY: And, although, John, I mentioned your conflict with Cheryl, I forgot to bring Areva into that, because Areva was just smiling and
grimacing at your commentary. So, go ahead, Areva.
AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. What I saw when I saw that video, the kids were asking the cops, what did they do
wrong? He would not even give him the courtesy of explaining what he was there for, why he had been called and what he was doing.
PINSKY: Does he owe them that, John? Yes or No.
CARDILLO: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, he does.
CARDILLO:
PINSKY: Cheryl, yes or no?
CHERYL DORSEY, SERGEANT LAPD (RET.): Absolutely. Because often times, that is really what someone wants is just a simple explanation.
And, sometimes that will cause them to comply. And, then if they do not, then if they ratchet it up, then you respond to that, but you do not get to
ratchet it up on what might happen or what happened three weeks ago. You do not get to do that. And, understand this.
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: If this is a tactic and a trick that officers use all the time when they say, "Step outside, I want to talk to you," because they
know once they get you to cross that threshold, you are free game.
PINSKY: But, Areva, let us say they go on the record and go, "Hey, I think you are high and I have reasons to believe there are drugs behind
there." And, there is no real just cause, have not they gone on the record now with sort of a distortion. And, could not they get in trouble by going
on the record?
MARTIN: Well, if there is no reasonable suspicion that they are drugs, they could be making up stories, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: But, there is an instinct --
MARTIN: They are trained professionals.
PINSKY: Well, let me ask you this.
MARTIN: So, if there if there is no reasonable suspicion, they should not be making.
PINSKY: Areva, I noticed something lately. When I have been in depositions for frivolous lawsuits, I have noticed that attorneys allow me
to say as a physician, that it was just my judgment. It was just my usual --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: You cannot abuse it, though.
PINSKY: No, I understand, but I am wondering --
MARTIN: But, the judgment is informed by the experience and the training.
PINSKY: I am wondering if cops get that same --
CARDILLO: You do.
PINSKY: You do. OK.
CARDILLO: The training -- you are trained --
PINSKY: Yes?
CARDILLO: -- that when you testify --
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: A great example. -- Deposition trial hearing.
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: My training and experience as a police officer led me to believe.
PINSKY: OK.
CARDILLO: If somebody slamming a door in your face raises a level.
SCHACHER: Yes, but hold up. This is a -- OK. If you listen to the police chief, the police chief -- and I really commend this chief, because
he did not try to make excuses. He said, point blank that these officers were in the wrong; that he said that they used excessive force; that he
also said that he hopes that the community -- That he can rebuild the trust between the citizens and police officers, because what these officers did
and I think some were campus officers --
[21:05:12] MARTIN: There were campus officers --
SCHACHER: They were not supposed to enter in the premises. They were not suppose to pull people out. So, let us call it what it is. These
police officers F`ed up.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: Did you see all that bravado?
PINSKY: Yes, well --
MARTIN: Did you see that one guy cursing and using profanity and strutting around like a peacock.
PINSKY: Areva, that is the stuff that Cheryl is always tell us about. But, Segun, I know you have something to say. But, I want to play you a
tape and you can comment on that too, Segun. Now, here is an interaction, I will play it for you and Segun you comment. Let us listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why are there 1,000 cops in this house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (1): Shut your (EXPLETIVE WORD) mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (2): Hey, hey, hey. Just calm down. Calm down. Everybody calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why are there 10 cops here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER (1): Shut the (EXPLETIVE WORD)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I am just really happy I have this all on video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I do not give a (EXPLETIVE WORD)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Segun.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Yes. I want to piggyback off what Sam said. They are in the wrong. Where is the profanity coming
from -- from the people that are supposed to protect and serve? And, if we really want to take it -- when they get outside and they are striking this
kid while he is down, if that is not excessive force, if that is not an abuse of power -- and I say this all the time and I say it to you, John,
especially.
When the public trust is eroded completely from the police, you get more and more of this. And, when we see cops on their own body cam,
cursing out students, yanking them from their house, not answering any questions and beating these kids while they are already down, that cannot
be good training, that cannot be police procedure and that cannot be right.
CARDILLO: Let me respond to that. One of the things I hate about these videos, is you get a 10 seconds snippet, a 30-second snippet. We do
not know if that is a priority location, a drug prone location, a gang prone location, but we do not know any of this.
PINSKY: We do not know any of this --
CARDILLO: You can laugh about it.
MARTIN: John, we know that is a college student.
CARDILLO: We do not know -- But you do not know the address. When you are in a patrol car and those alert tones come over, and they say, "Be
advised, the drug prone location, a violence prone location," we do not know any of that. We get this little snippet and then we analyze it from
1,000 miles and months away --
MARTIN: Let me tell you what I love about these videos --
CARDILLO: It is poor policy.
MARTIN: For the first time, we now get to see how police treat calls that they respond to and we do not have to rely on statements, which we now
have seen played out in the national media, often times are fabricated statements. We get to witness it with our own eyes and it is amazing to
me, John that even when you see it recorded, you still try to find some interpretation for it.
CARDILLO: I do not.
MARTIN: And, you try to dismiss --
CARDILLO: No, no, no, no. I go on facts -- But, I go on facts and data.
MARTIN: But, it is clearly bad conduct on the part of cop.
CARDILLO: I am going on fact and data. Often is a very poor choice of words. As a generalization, New York City Police Department last year,
25.5 million interactions with the public discharged their weapons 81 times --
ODUOLOWU: John, you always --
CARDILLO: Hold on.
ODUOLOWU: You always throw in --
CARDILLO: One in 300,000.
ODUOLOWU: There is a kid getting beat on the ground. So, unless my lying eyes are not in the squad car, when they said it is a violent prone
neighborhood, they are beating the kid on the ground. So, I can see that.
DORSEY: And, listen and officers have to deal with what is known not with what is unknown, because what we deal with by and large are bad
actors. We dea; with criminals. And, so, you cannot treat everybody blanket that they could be a bad guy.
You have to deal with them in this instance, in this moment in time. And, so, responding to a minor call, an excessive noise call and then to
ratchet it up, but you know I always say, comply, right? Because you do not know if you have --
PINSKY: Right. Cheryl, if there have been seven or eight walking in that room, you always taught me, somebody resists you, bad things are going
to happen.
DORSEY: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, you might have been that officer that came in after the initial guys escalated things too.
DORSEY: And, so, would not it be nice, out of the six or seven officers that were there, if they would just have one person who had a cool
head, who could stand back and watch?
PINSKY: Well, I heard that guy.
MARTIN: That is the guy, who said, "Calm down."
PINSKY: Yes. He was the guy trying to calm it.
MARTIN: He was taking control of the situation and trying to deescalate.
SCHACHER: I have to back up John real quick. I think this is a first. But, I feel like it is a lot of generalizations about police
officers. We have to be very careful to say some police officers, but you should also say that you would want these police officers, these bad ones
to get better training or to get withed up, because it is giving the good police officers a bad name.
CARDILLO: Look, I want them fire and arrested if they commit crimes and they do wrong, but it is a very, very small decimal percent.
PINSKY: And, let me -- the three of us or the non-legal people in the room, here. Let me ask Sam, first. Do you -- we have watched these tapes
for most of this year, right?
SCHACHER: Yes. Too many.
PINSKY: But, do you feel differently since San Bernardino. I look at these now, and I am like --
SCHACHER: Almost as if like see something, say something to your neighborhood?
PINSKY: We were very critical of the neighbors of the Farook and those guys, who did not say something. I am feel different. I do not want
to say this is right, where we are going to analyze a bunch of footage. But, I feel like I am looking at it from a different perspective than I
have all here. Do you feel that way?
ODUOLOWU: I hear what you are saying, Dr. Drew, but I would just say do not suspend your common sense. If I see something that does not make
sense to me like there is amassing weapons --
PINSKY: I am just saying that it is interesting to me that this topic that we have been dealing with all, suddenly has a different dimension to
it because of the world we seem to be living in. I was like I want police to do their job, but wait a minute, I am conflicted. I am more than I have
ever been.
[21:10:07] Next up, a homeless man shot and killed by police. You will hear both sides of that story after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LYNN BERRY, HLN ANCHOR , "WEEKEND EXPRESS" PROGRAM: Police say Mario Woods refused repeated orders to drop a knife that he was holding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERRY (voice-over): He was suspected to stabbing someone earlier and police say they felt he was a danger to others. Police, originally, were
firing soft beanbag rounds and pepper spray at woods, they then fired fatal shots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BYSTANDER: Just drop it. Just drop it, please!
(MULTIPLE GUN SHOTS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE BYSTANDER: Oh my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We witnessed was an assassination. A hate crime and straight up murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As you see there, police say they first fired bean bag rounds, then pepper spray and then open fire, when Woods seemed to move
forward towards them with a knife. Back with Sam, Areva, John, Segun, and Cheryl. Cheryl, appropriate?
DORSEY: You know, it is difficult for me to second-guess this one, because a knife in someone`s hand, and they can close that distance very
quickly if they advance on you. And, so, you know, sometimes, police officers have to use force.
[21:15:09] PINSKY: All right. John, appropriate?
CARDILLO: Television history was made. I agree with Cheryl.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Segun says no.
ODUOLOWU: Are you kidding me?
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: There is like six cops here. It looks like a firing squad.
PINSKY: But, here is -- this is what I have a problem with, which is that looked like a crazy person to me, right?
MARTIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: Yes. He is mentally ill.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Is that we know?
MARTIN: Homeless mentally ill.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: So, I do not understand why law enforcement, unfortunately -- it is not as though they are asking for this, but they have become the
mental health delivery system in our country. Why are we not training officers how to better handle a mentally ill? Because I have had patients
killed in front of the hospital.
CARDILLO: Right.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: Whom we could have handled easily and the cops said, "Get out of here." They were just sick. They were crazy and they are harmless. We
could have easily handled them, but once police have a totally different kind of perspective on it.
CARDILLO: It is a budget and manpower. Segun and I talked about this off air all the time about --
PINSKY: All the time? You, guys, talk off the air?
CARDILLO: We speak of this.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: What is going on?
CARDILLO: We actually do. We are buddies now. No, we have spoken about this issue quite a bit. He has been on my radio show. We talked
about it. It is an issue of budgeting of manpower and just of limited training.
MARTIN: Let me say something --
CARDILLO: Police academy is six months -- one sec. And, in service training, they call it is limited.
PINSKY: But, is there conversation within law enforcement about bringing --
CARDILLO: There is, but the budgets are not there to do something about it.
PINSKY: It is hard, I know.
MARTIN: But, talk about budgets, did you see in Chicago they spent $500 million in excessive force lawsuits? So, you talk about budgets, the
money is there, it is a question of how you allocate it and what you make a priority. So, spend some of that money you are paying in excessive
lawsuits and hire mental health professionals.
The time it took them to corral this man, to talk to him, they could have had a mental health professional on the phone at that scene and that
could have been a situation where that man went home, and he did not get killed by a situation --
ODUOLOWU: He was homeless. He was homeless.
SCHACHER: But --
MARTIN: It looked like he was just completely out of his mind.
PINSKY: Sam. Another, television first. Yes, take the money away from the attorneys get it to the mental health community, very much in
favor of that. Sam.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: There is so much more to this case so that we are learning about. So, initially, when I first read about the case, I agreed with you,
I said "What more could thes3 police have done aside from having additional training with mentally-ill people?
PINSKY: Uh-huh.
SCHACHER: But, now, we are learning that the narrative is completely different. So, the narrative of the police officers was he was brandishing
this knife. He was lunging at the police officers. We had no choice. Then we see additional footage and we see that this man`s hands were at his
side. So, that is what is scary is when you see the policemen lying to control the narrative, that is what leads to the discharge within the
communities.
PINSKY: Well, Sam -- I am going to ask both officers. Lying or distorting? In those moments, it is hard to make sense.
ODUOLOWU: What is the difference?
CARDILLO: I do not think it was used.
PINSKY: Hang on.
CARDILLO: But, I do not think it was used.
PINSKY: But, if a guy came at you with a knife and this was the distance, it might feel like a closer distance.
ODUOLOWU: No. I am not --
PINSKY: I am just saying.
ODUOLOWU: I agree with you, but --
CARDILLO: You know, a knife is an edge weapon. You are talking about 21 foot, in some case it is 25 feet. It is as deadly as a gun. This guy
had already stabbed his --
SCHACHER: His hands were at his side in the footage.
CARDILLO: At that moment. At that moment.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Cheryl, agree?
DORSEY: For me, I do not understand why we do not see officers take cover and concealment, right? Because, that is part of training. We are
taught to get behind something.
PINSKY: There is a tree there. Look, at the big tree there.
DORSEY: When you have an opportunity to do that and we see officers time and time again standing out in the open, you know, and almost in a
standoff, shoot them up western type of thing and just having target practice. I would like to see officers use deadly force as a last resort
after you tried everything else first. After you have beaten him, you gauged his eyes out.
PINSKY: OK. John.
CARDILLO: Hold on.
DORSEY: You do not shoot first.
CARDILLO: Let me comment on it. Cover and concealment works for a firearm or a projectile. It is not training doctrine for someone with a
knife, because they just close the distance and stab you behind the tree.
ODUOLOWU: John, can I ask you a question.
CARDILLO: They had no choice.
ODUOLOWU: John, can I ask you a question. They fired bean bags at him, a nonlethal weapon. Why not just tase him?
PINSKY: Where are the dogs, by the way?
CARDILLO: If bean bags does not work, a taser --
ODUOLOWU: No, but what I am saying is, it seems like --
PINSKY: Dogs? Dogs, will not work?
ODUOLOWU: Yes. It seems like --
MARTIN: What about communications? What about communications in these situations?
ODUOLOWU: It seems like torture to me.
CARDILLO: And, get killed if he slices them?
ODUOLOWU: It seems like torture, because they fired bean bags. "Oh, wait. Those do not work. We could tase him, but that might take time.
So, why do not we just shoot them, and there is six of us."
SCHACHER: It is human life. It is human life.
MARTIN: And, what about talking to the guy? What about some discourse, some interaction that we never seen in these videos. We see
cops roll up, we see them pull out their guns and shoot.
PINSKY: I am hearing --
MARTIN: If you are going to preserve life --
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: You got to be more patient. You got to engage these individuals --
PINSKY: And, John --
MARTIN: -- and try to figure out how to deescalate these situations.
PINSKY: I am hearing they are going to -- the police are going to Australia, are going to England and really training on how to do de-
escalation without firearms.
CARDILLO: And, I am the biggest proponent of that. But, this case, he stabbed someone.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CARDILLO: If you have not ever seen a wound from a bean bag gun, there is serious trauma both -- above and below the skin. I mean if that
did not work, a taser was not going to work. This guy was held down on hurting people.
DORSEY: Dr. Drew, you know for me, there is never any urgency. We are taught time and time again to take your time. And, who handles more
violent, more hostile situations than S.W.A.T., right?
And, when S.W.A.T. rolls out in a team, they never come in doing a barrel roll like we saw in McKinney, Texas, right?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Right.
DORSEY: They come in. They take their time. They spent hours. They spent whatever they need when they have hostages, when they have bad actors
with big guns. So, why do patrol officers use this?
[21:20:03] PINSKY: You answer that, why?
DORSEY: Well, because they can, because there is no accountability. Barre and because police chief circled the wagon --
PINSKY: Is it that or training?
CARDILLO: It is training and equipment.
DORSEY: Police chief circled the wagon when bad things happen to protect that organism, that entity and the officer benefits as well.
PINSKY: We cannot --
CARDILLO: Let me make one comment. S.W.A.T. put 900 rounds in an SUV --
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: -- in San Bernardino. They did not talk to them when those people had big guns. They have lit that car up and made Swiss cheese out
of it.
MARTIN: That is just one example --
CARDILLO: No. No, but the S.W.A.T. had the tools and training to do this. Patrol officers do not.
PINSKY: OK. So, that is we always come to that, which inadequate training, inadequate resources and lack of uniformity of policy throughout
the country.
CARDILLO: Yes.
MARTIN: But, I think we are missing something with that. I think analysis is way too shallow. It is missing something very fundamental, is
leadership at the top, is valuing lives in a way that we do not see often in these cases particularly involving African-American men.
There has to be a priority placed on preserving life. And, when that happens at the top, I think the training and all of that will follow, but
it does not matter how much training you have if you go out and you automatically see a black guy and you think he is a threat and you think he
is somehow going to be violent.
ODUOLOWU: But, Areva. Areva --
MARTIN: All the training in the world will not address those issues.
ODUOLOWU: Say it a little more simply. They do not see the people as human.
PINSKY: Oh, no. Come on, now.
MARTIN: Valuing lives.
SCHACHER: Not all. Not all police officers.
MARTIN: Valuing lives.
ODUOLOWU: It is easier -- listen.
SCHACHER: It is not fair. It is not fair.
ODUOLOWU: Why is it ridiculous when all of the tapes that we -- most of the tapes that we have seen are a gang of cops shooting a singular
person that they cannot see as a human.
SCHACHER: But, let us not over generalized either. Let us not over generalized. And, a lot of times in media, we did not hear anything about
Ventura County yesterday and the entire police department going into inner cities and taking under privileged children and taking them Christmas
shopping.
So, let us see -- you know, not to compare it with losing a human life, but let us just not -- I am with you with more training and getting
in and protecting black males, I get it. I get the disparity. But, let us also not over generalize all policemen. That is not fair, either.
PINSKY: All right. But, let us get into that topic.
Next up, is there such a thing as jogging while black. I will show you a video that brings that into question. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:26:18] PINSKY: We are talking about police procedure, what is right, what is wrong. Back with Sam, Areva, John, Segun and Cheryl. Black
man decides to go on a midnight jog. He got stop by police. Listen to that conversation. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH PRICE, TALLADEGA POLICE OFFICER: Did you just get off work or what are you doing?
COREY DICKERSON, AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE WHO WAS DETAINED MY WHITE POLICE: Uh, yeah. Have I done anything wrong, first of all?
OFFICER PRICE: Well, no. We have to ask that, because see at night we have to check. And, see, we have had a lot of burglaries and thefts and
stuff like that going on. We do not know who you are.
DICKERSON: Oh, well, I am nobody. I am nobody.
OFFICER PRICE: Look at our job. We do not know what you are doing out here.
[21:25:01] DICKERSON: Right now, I am just minding my own.
OFFICER PRICE: Where are you going to?
DICKERSON: Nowhere in particular.
OFFICER PRICE: Nowhere in particular. You look like you have been running. You been running?
DICKERSON: Yes.
OFFICER PRICE: What have you been running from?
DICKERSON: Uh, just around.
OFFICER PRICE: Just around?
DICKERSON: Yes. Yes.
OFFICER PRICE: Where are you going to?
DICKERSON: Nowhere in particular.
OFFICER PRICE: You got some I.D. on you?
DICKERSON: I do, but --
OFFICER PRICE: What is your name?
DICKERSON: Corey. Yes. Well, looks like I am about to get harassed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Areva, I heard you were scoffing at some of that conversation. And, you seemed to take issue with it. But, I live in a
post San Bernardino world, where there are terrorists out there. I want the cop to ask questions. I do not mind them asking questions.
SCHACHER: Where he is running from?
PINSKY: I do not care. They can ask me that any day they want.
MARTIN: But, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: They come in here right now and ask me what I am doing. Fine, I will tell them.
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew.
MARTIN: Dr. Drew, let me respond. I live in a post Laquan McDonald world. I live in a world where I see cops shoot down a teenager that is
walking away from them. And, I do not think you can get away from them. I am as sensitive as you about these San Bernardino shooting, but that does
not mean all of our rights get suspended. Some states have stop and identify laws --
PINSKY: What is the matter with that?
MARTIN: Which mean you have to identify yourself.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: The man is out on a jog. Did you hear the statement he asked him? Who are you running from?
SCHACHER: Yes.
MARTIN: The man is clearly exercising. But, what we do not see on that tape is a second officer, who shows up, who uses this patience and
engagement that I am talking about, I was talking about earlier and the whole conversation goes differently.
The man relaxes and he starts, actually, telling the second cop things about him like he has a trespass charge against him in another city and the
whole conversation takes a different tone when you are not accusing and assuming that because he is a black guy out on a jog that he is somehow has
committed a crime that he is running from.
PINSKY: John.
CARDILLO: Well, you know, I am torn on this one. I mean it is the United States of America. So, you should be able to run at night if you
want to unmolested. On the other hand, what we did not see is probably there were burglary patterns in that area. And, patrol were told, "Be
alert. Ask questions." But, as a rule, Americans should be able to travel without I.D., do what they want to do. Go where they want.
PINSKY: Where are your papers? Where are your papers?
CARDILLO: Right. Right. That is my fear. The libertarian in me does not like that.
PINSKY: Yes. I get it.
CARDILLO: I think we are rubbing off on John.
SCHACHER: I know.
(LAUGHING)
SCHACHER: Yes!
PINSKY: But, Cheryl has to comment. Go ahead.
DORSEY: You see, these are the subtle indignities that black folks have to deal with day to day. And, it does not matter, you know, if you
are a retired police department sergeant like I happen to be. When I walk around, they just see the skin I wear. It is insulting to have a police
officer stop you as a grown woman or man and ask you where are you going? What the hell do you mean, where am I going? I get to go wherever I want
to go!
PINSKY: How would you respond?
DORSEY: I would feel same way about it. If I were him running and they said where are you running to? Are you kidding me?
PINSKY: You would say that?
DORSEY: Absolutely. Then I would say get a sergeant. We are going to have a conversation with the supervisor. I am sure if I look like you,
I would be able to run hither and yon and you would not wonder where I am going and where I am coming from.
SCHACHER: Yes.
MARTIN: And, the cop would say, "Way to go, guy. Keep running. Keep exercising."
CARDILLO: That is not true. When at was -- New York City cop, I was jogging with a bellyband, with my pistol in it. My shirt rode up. Someone
called 911. Two patrol cars had guns to my head --
SCHACHER: But, they saw your gun.
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: They saw a gun on you.
CARDILLO: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. But, also had my shield next to my gun, which they conveniently they did not see or chose not to
see displayed in the same way. I did not argue with them and get arrogant, "I am a police officer!" .
ODUOLOWU: But, it does not have to do every day-- But, John -- but John --
CARDILLO: I was polite about it.
ODUOLOWU: It does not have to do -- Listen, I have said those same things and felt some kind of way, because I have been stopped jogging. I
have been stopped walking. I have been stopped in a store and I have asked them, "Why are you stopping me?" They said, "Well, we had shoplifters."
What does that have to do with me?
CARDILLO: Well, that is ridiculous.
ODUOLOWU: No. What I am saying is --
PINSKY: Why not -- Can we all --
ODUOLOWU: -- it over and over again becomes too much to bear.
SCHACHER: It is the language, though, Dr. Drew. I agree with Cheryl. was the language of saying, "Where are you running from?" Instead of
saying, "Hey, man, are you on a jog because there have been some burglaries I would like to talk to like the other officer did."
DORSEY: Yes.
SCHACHER: But, to say where are you running from insinuates that he just committed a crime. That is not OK.
ODUOLODU: And, that is how cops talk to us. I would be honest with you. A lot of cops -- No, I agree with Sam -- I know you say do not paint
with a large brush, but I have a police chief, who says that it happens to her --
PINSKY: Which makes me sad, but at the same time, again, I feel the world is changing and I want us all to be Americans and go -- you to say to
cops next time, you were like, "Hey, I am going to do my duty as an American here. I will let you talk to me like that, but I do not
appreciate it.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: You know what I mean?
ODUOLOWU: But, we can even say that? Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go ahead and stop me because we are living in a different world, but please come on, now.
MARTIN: But, it does not stop right there, Dr. Drew. And, it does not stop right there. He identifies himself. Now, all of a sudden, his
name is being run through some database.
PINSKY: Good.
MARTIN: That is not good. That is not what the constitution says.
CARDILLO: I agree with Areva. I cannot believe I did, but I do.
SCHACHER: Oh my goodness.
CARDILLO: On this one, I agree with her.
MARTIN: He has no reasonable suspicion that this young man has committed a crime. And, this man is not belligerent. He is not arguing
with the cop. He is being very polite
PINSKY: Well, I am now in the position of Farook`s neighbor going, "Well, I better not say anything.
CARDILLO: But, that is --
PINSKY: These guys are going to question me, questioning this dude.
CARDILLO: That is the Ferguson effect, though. That FBI Director call me, who is universally regarded as apolitical and nonpartisan. And,
he is dead on right about that. Cops and the public are afraid to say anything for fear of being labeled racist or islamophobic.
PINSKY: Yes. That is what I am afraid of, with all of this.
CARDILLO: And, I am with you on that.
MARTIN: But, are you afraid of black men --
PINSKY: No.
MARTIN: -- who are afraid to be out in the street jogging because they might get shot or killed by the police.
PINSKY: I am deeply saddened by that. And, we all got to get on the same boat and start rode together --
ODUOLOWU: But, you are not to stop to suspend some rights.
PINSKY: For me. For me.
ODUOLOWU: No, but what I am saying is, it does not work -- it does not work on a case --
SCHACHER: But you do not deal with it.
PINSKY: Well, I know I do not, but I wish I could.
ODUOLOWU: No, but the laws will not go a case by case basis.
PINSKY: You know what I am saying?
ODUOLOWU: The cop will not say, "OK, it is Dr. Drew, and the well to do white man. We are going to treat him a little differently." If you
want it to be uniform. If you want rights to be suspended, which is I am tied what the constitution is about and I am tied what America is supposed
to be about, you do not throw it away because of one bad incident.
PINSKY: I understand.
ODUOLOWU: You just cannot.
PINSKY: I understand what you are saying. I am just saying that my perspective has changed a little bit. I am trying to find a way to make
this work for all of us here. And, I wish we can all get on the same boat. You know what I mean?
MARTIN: And, I think your heart is pure on this, Dr. Drew, but I am worried about the folks looking at the show, who are not like you.
PINSKY: Me too.
MARTIN: Who are going to use their white privilege --
PINSKY: Oh. Well --
MARTIN: -- in a way that manipulates and thatadvantages them in a way that is anti-African-American, anti-Latinos, anti-marginalized populations,
because everybody is not like you, struggling to find a way that we can all get along.
PINSKY: Well, we all need to be in that. We need to be doing that more.
ODUOLOWU: We need to get John out of Florida, just to talk sensitive and could agree with Areva and Cheryl.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Next up, a woman taking a walk in her own neighborhood. She is stopped by police. Was it because she is black? We will talk about it
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:34:03] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A university professor, was she targeted by police because of her race. A black university dean was stopped in her affluent Dallas
suburb by two white officers broad daylight.
Police say it was for her safety. Days later, she claimed racial profiling. The police then responded by releasing the dash cam video.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: -- make sure you are walking on this side of the road.
DOROTHY BLAND, UNIVERSITY DEAN WHO WAS STOPPED BY WHITE OFFICERS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Because, there is -- I do not know if you not noticed, there was a truck that pretty much had to go to a stop
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Do you have your I.D. on you real quick?
BLAND: No. I do not have my I.D. on me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: BLAND: I am amazed. I get stopped for walking!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): OK.
BLAND: Do you know how many times I walk this street?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, was Dorothy Bland stopped by police for what we are calling, "Walking while black." Here is more of that dash cam video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: I am walking at 11:00.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: You did not want to walk in the rain?
BLAND: No. I decided that would not be smart today.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Yes. Yes, you are right. Some people do.
BLAND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: My dog does not like the rain.
BLAND: Yes. I am a perfectly law-abiding citizen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: All right.
BLAND: And, I pay lots of taxes, too, by the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: All right. OK.
(LAUGHING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I am not really understanding where the problem was.
BLAND: I am like jogging and I get flashing lights and everything from walking in my neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Oh, he is just trying to get your picture.
BLAND: Well, you got it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: All right, ma`am. Thank you.
BLAND: OK. Bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Areva, John, Segun and Cheryl. Areva, see, I feel bad for the police that situation.
SCHACHER: Me too.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I mean I understand. I am sympathetic to what she was kind of feeling, but the cop seemed to be aware of we are trying to deescalate
it.
MARTIN: I think what bothered people about this issue is she seemed to at some point have this very cordial discourse conversation going with
the cops and then the next day or a couple of days later, there is this op- ed piece where she said she thought she was racially profiled. And, I think when you see that video, this is not a woman who at least from what
we can detect on video seems to have been annoyed by what happened to her.
[21:40:07] PINSKY: No. She was annoyed. I can tell you, she was annoyed.
MARTIN: Well --
PINSKY: But, she was not like --
MARTIN: They were kind of jovial and they are kind of laughing.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean --
MARTIN: I think that is what bothered people just viscerally.
PINSKY: I do not get to have -- I think the average person does not get -- any person does not that cordial of an interaction with police if
they are stopped.
MARTIN: Again, put in the context of everything that is happening on a national level, an African-Americans in particular feeling like they are
being targeted by police and sometimes situations like that, that seem pretty innocuous can cause someone to relive the situations they watched.
PINSKY: Well, all right. Now, I would bet -- you keep pointing at the white privileged male. I bet I --
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: You have got to.
CARDILLO: I am behind you.
PINSKY: I think they get better treatment than anybody.
SCHACHER: Well, that is why -- I am female, though, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I understand.
SCHACHER: So, believe me, I got my own issues as a female. But yes, I do not have to deal with that from police officers.
PINSKY: They are nice to you.
SCHACHER: I have never had an experience with police officers because of my girl white privilege.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: True. With this story, though, some of the context that we are not providing is the fact that she was walking in the middle of the
street with her ear buds in, so they were there to help move her to safety.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Now, I agree with Areva, though, perhaps because she has had to deal with this maybe a number of times in the past, she this may be
like the straw that broke the camel`s back?
PINSKY: Or maybe she is just hearing shows like ours talk about it all the time and then she is affected. Let us watch more of the video.
Here it comes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Do you have your I.D. on you real quick?
BLAND: No. I do not have my I.D. on me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: BLAND: I am amazed. I get stopped for walking!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): OK.
BLAND: Do you know how many times I walk this street?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: It is just for safety issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Do you mind if I get your name and date of birth real quick, so I can make sure put it with the call?
BLAND: Sure. I mean if I am going to get stopped again I would certainly want it on record.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: Can I get a shot of the two officers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): Sure.
BLAND: That way I can say I was stopped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): Yes, that is fine.
BLAND: While walking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: John, ring in here.
CARDILLO: Yes. I mean this is so ridiculous. I do not know how she walks with that giant-size chip on her shoulder. It is a wet street on a
dark rainy day. It is this narrow. You could see a Toyota went by and almost clipped her and the cops.
PINSKY: Yes.
CARDILLO: That is why they want to get her on the sidewalk. She is an adult. Grow up, lady.
BLAND: Why do they need her birth date, though?
ODUOLOWU: No, wait.
CARDILLO: Because if she gets hit by a car, and later on they can say, "Hey, we told her to get out of the street, do not sue us."
PINSKY: We told that person. Yes.
CARDILLO: "e told Dorothy Bland , DOB, whatever, to get out of the street, she refused. She got hit, not our problem."
MARTIN: But, you do now some states do not have those stop and identify laws and they do not require you to give the identity and you are
walking.
CARDILLO: And, she did not. And, Areva, she did not and they left. But, she did not. And, what you are confused -- They said OK and left.
ODUOLOWU: Areva, she is an opportunist. And, that is what bothers me. She is an opportunist.
CARDILLO: I agree.
PINSKY: Meaning?
MARTIN: What is she getting? What is she getting?
ODUOLOWU: Here is the opportunity. Because, first of all, get on the sidewalk. Like get some common sense get on the side walk. Who walks in
the middle of the street?
PINSKY: You know what? Segun, since we aired that story the first time, we have all kind of learned about micro-aggressions and about what is
going on, on college campuses. Everyone gets bothered everything. And, I think she is from that culture on college campuses where everything is an
issue.
ODUOLOWU: She is an opportunist. Walk on the sidewalk. They were cordial to her. And, the thing that bothered me is we want to put -- the
cop explained why he wanted -- we want to put a name and this with the call.
Why do not you just walk on the sidewalk. They were not rude to her. They were not dismissive. They were not anything. For her to come back a
day later and make a big fuss about this, ruins and actually hurts the cause of those who are actually being hurt by cops.
PINSKY: Cheryl.
ODUOLOWU: Because this was not one of those.
DORSEY: Yes. This is a damned if you do and damned if you do not situation --
PINSKY: For the cops.
DORSEY: For me, for the officers. I think that they tried their very best to be reasonable, respectful and explain what they were doing. And,
you know, I say sometimes there are things that we know as police officers that you do not know as a person that we are interacting with and so, maybe
--
PINSKY: There are a lots of things I do not know.
DORSEY: But, listen. But listen --
PINSKY: I am a policemen, why do not you guys do your job.
DORSEY: That is why you comply. And, so, the fact that they asked her to identify herself, you know, we have a log that we fill out. And, there
things that we need to put on this log about that interaction and maybe that is all that was. But, she was hyper sensitive for another reason.
SCHACHER: In support of that, in response to what you said, there was a reason why they asked her to identify herself, because she was actually
blocking traffic.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: There was a number of cars. And, so, if they were going to cite her because she did not move a couple of times when there was a big
truck behind her. There is another car that drove by, that is why they asked for that information. Because if she does not go to the sidewalk,
they were going to cite her.
MARTIN: But, let me just say this. I am not going to go down with the ship on this one incident --
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Of course, you are not.
MARTIN: But, I am going to say is that you cannot erase decades of police brutality --
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: I get it.
MARTIN: And, these are the kind of cases you should expect.
ODUOLOWU: I do not get to cry on this one for her to be on the sidewalk.
PINSKY: All right. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.
MARTIN: Address the disparities in the criminal justice system, we are going to see cases like this that clearly are on the mark.
PINSKY: OK. But, fair enough, but do not write about it on the Op- Ed.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: Or call the police department afterwards if you get upset. She never did. She never complained.
ODUOLOWU: That is not Ferguson. That is not New York, walk on -- If they have her off the sidewalk some, I am with you.
MARTIN: It does not have to be Ferguson --
PINSKY: But, I am telling you.
MARTIN: It does not have to Ferguson for you to feel like you have been --
(CROSSTALK)
[21:45:00] PINSKY: I get it. I got to go to break, guys. But, I think it is more symptomatic on what is going on our college campuses and
academia generally than it is about African-Americans and police.
Next, what is wrong with black teens being at an ATM. That is what they want to know. We will get to that after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:42] UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Get off him. He did not do nothing. He did not do nothing. He did not do nothing. He did not do
nothing!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Hands behind your back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): D.C. Police officers aggressively restrained 18-year-old Jason Goolsby. Goolsby told the
"Washington Post" that just minutes before police moved in, he held the door at an ATM for a white woman pushing a stroller. He says, an officer
told him the woman called police because he had made her uncomfortable.
[21:50:00] PETER GRENIER, JASON GOOLSBY`S ATTORNEY: I have zero doubt that if these young men were white, none of this would have happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Goolsby and Brown say police detained them for two hours, then let them go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Delroy Burton of the D.C. Police Union says, Goolsby ran several blocks after police arrived and kept reaching
into his backpack. He says the officers did not know what they would encounter when they tracked him down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON GOOLSBY, 18-YEAR-OLD AFRICAN AMERICAN TEEN AGGRESSIVELY RESTRAINED BY POLICE OFFICERS: My first instinct was to run, because I did
not want to -- I did not want to die. I feared for my life about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about what police do and why they do it and what they do not do. A black teen holds the door at an ATM for a white
female. She then reports this kid to the authorities. Officers handcuff not just Jason, but his friend. Police investigated the incident, found no
wrong-doing on the part of the officers. Back with Sam, Areva, John, Segun and Cheryl. Cheryl, do you think they did anything wrong?
DORSEY: I do not know why it took two hours to determine that nothing wrong had occurred. I mean that seems a little excessive to me. And, so -
-
PINSKY: Could have been waiting for the sergeant or waiting for somebody to --
DORSEY: Listen. Two hours, that is unreasonable. They could have gotten to the bottom of this. If she made that call, all they had to do
was ask a couple of quick questions of her, a couple of quick answers from the boys and they be on their way.
PINSKY: But, this kid ran, though. This kid ran and was reaching into his backpack.
DORSEY: You know what? I think I would run too, right now, Dr. Drew because with all that is going on, this is a young man who sees things on
T.V. and all he knows is, is that bad things happen when police stop people that look like me. And, so, I am going to run until I can get to safety.
PINSKY: But, you guys, this is what is bothering me at this whole conversation is, we live in a world now where we have gone, "Oh, those
neighbors are the Farook couple, they should have said something. We should all see something, say something. This woman did that. She may
have felt bad about it, but felt I was going to say something."
ODUOLOWU: She saw blacks.
SCHACHER: She seems prejudice.
ODUOLOWU: She saw two black teens.
PINSKY: Yes, she does. But, I am just saying --
ODUOLOWU: They hold the door for her.
PINSKY: She did what we told her to do.
MARTIN: We did not tell her to call the police because African- American teens make her uncomfortable. That is not the reason she --
ODUOLOWU: Did they have ski masked on, where they brandishing stuff?- -
MARTIN: They opened the door for her.
ODUOLOWU: They opened the door for her because she has a stroller.
CARDILLO: There are two different issues here, right? There is one of a woman, who made a frivolous police call.
SCHACHER: She did. Yes.
CARDILLO: Although, I disagree with her. OK, I disagree with that all day long.
PINSKY: We disagree with her making the call
CARDILLO: With her making the call.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: OK.
CARDILLO: But, then you have to look at the police. And, I say this often, Cheryl looks at things like I used to through the lens of a big
department, LAPD, NYPD. NYPD, arrests somebody in the Bronx. I know if they did anything anywhere in the five borrows or the 17-20 mile radius.
But, these are smaller departments. They reasonably hold them for two hours and I interface. I help departments for communications. All around
the country, the small guys, they have to interface with local agencies. And, it does takes a couple of hours to find out if anyone matching those
descriptions committed a robbery or burglary. And, that is what took the two hours --
PINSKY: Can we prove that?
CARDILLO: Well, that is just -- well, can you improve it, again --
PINSKY: It is a technology thing.
CARDILLO: And, it is a jurisdictional thing. So, very expensive to build a communication center that would serve as multiple agencies.
ODUOLOWU: But, John --
DORSEY: And, you are speculating that they were looking to see if these guys were involved in a robbery --
CARDILLO: That is policy.
DORSEY: When she said they made me feel uncomfortable, "Ma`am, why? What did they do?"
PINSKY: Well, let me react it. Here is the 911 call. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: They are waiting at the door to let people in, but are not doing anything inside of the bank. We just left, but we felt
like if we had taken money out, we might have gotten robbed.
And, I have to reiterate the only issue that really made it stand out was that they were just -- They were not doing anything in the bank and as
soon as we left, they stayed. So, that was suspicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Cheryl, loitering is what they saw. Somebody is loitering in a bank, seemed weird to that.
DORSEY: Because they are black. She felt uncomfortable because she saw two black men, who she thought had no business in a bank, right?
Because young black kids do not go to the bank, because they do not have bank accounts.
SCHACHER: And, Dr. Drew, listen, it is the police officer`s job to show up and ask questions, not just to assume, because they do not know who
this woman is on the phone.
PINSKY: But the kid run.
SCHACHER: Right. That I understand. He also said if you listen to his testimony, he said that the police officers vehicles came up so fast on
him that if he would not have moved, that he literally would have been hit. But, that is his side.
But, Dr. Drew, again, this woman that called, it could be anybody. She could be paranoid. She could be paranoid. She could be a disgruntled
ex-girlfriend. She could be racist. So, it is a --
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Wait, wait, wait. I do not think anything could be about the racist part.
CARDILLO: Let me answer that.
SCHACHER: I did not say creepy.
ODUOLOWU: No, I said, there is nothing could be about the racist part.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
CARDILLO: We agree on that, again.
PINSKY: Allegedly. Allegedly.
ODUOLOWU: Well, they open the door for a girl with a stroller.
CARDILLO: I do not need to go over the fact that we all agree the woman should not have made the call. But, now put yourself in the cop
shoes. There was a word used, rob, robbery, felony. That comes over to the police as possible attempted robbery.
MARTIN: Because she says she felt that way?
CARDILLO: Yes.
PINSKY: Because the word --
CARDILLO: But, hold on.
SCHACHER: She might be disgruntle ex-girlfriend.
CARDILLO: But again, all the cops in the car know is that the word robbery was used.
PINSKY: In a bank. In bank.
CARDILLO: At a bank. Now, it comes over as a felony response. They do not have time to analyze and say, well, maybe, it is I agree with you,
but that is --
PINSKY: Cheryl begrudgingly giving you that John, no?
DORSEY: You know, I hear what he is saying, but ask a couple of questions, because if you talk to her, I think if they would have asked her
some key questions right away, they would have determined that she was a wing nut, that she have some issues, that she have some biases and this was
not rooted in --
PINSKY: The 911 response operator that did the poor job.
[21:55:00] DORSEY: No, no, no, no, no. The 911 operator did what she was supposed to do. I am talking about the officer who arrived.
Asking --
PINSKY: I do not think the woman was there. They arrived, the kid ran and went down.
SCHACHER: Right. I do not think -- I do not know if we know -- The woman is anonymous.
PINSKY: Maybe. Listen. We got to wrap this up. It is again -- this is all -- I am glad we are having this conversation. I feel like this
conversation is more productive this time around than we have in the past.
And, I keep saying, it is kind of a new world that I hope we can all find a common ground on this. And, be aware that there are biases and
racist attitudes out there that color this conversation. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
PINSKY: Thank you, panelists. Thank you for playing nicely on the sandbag. John, great having you here in the same room with Cheryl and
Areva. It has been fantastic. Thank you, Segun, Sam. Appreciate you guys. Reminder, you can DVR the show, then watch us any time. I want to
thank you all for watching. Happy holidays. I will see you next time.
[22:00:10] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
