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Dr. Drew
Trump Skipping Tonight`s Republican Debate; Trump Told CNN He Actually Got An Apology From Fox News; Affluenza Teen Being Held In A Texas Detention Facility As A Youth, As A Youth After Killing Four People; Ethan Couch, Who Got Probation For Killing Four People In A Drunk Driving Crash; There Are 31 Zika Virus Cases In The United States
Aired January 28, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:09] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Welcome, everyone. There are hundreds in line, maybe many more inside. They are all waiting to hear
from Donald Trump. He is the frontrunner, of course, and he is gone rogue. He is skipping tonight`s republican debate. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I said, bye-bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He stood up to the media. That rarely happens in America. I think it drives to the point that Donald
Trump is running as a guy who is not going to be owned by anybody and he is willing to stand up to people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You cannot take your toys a go home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O`REILLY, FOX HOST OF "THE O`REILLY FACTOR" PROGRAM: That is what America is about, robust debate.
TRUMP: OK. That is fine.
O`REILLY: Do not walk away from it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HUCKABEE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I offered, by the way, to take his podium at the 8:00 debate and, you know, that was rejected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBUO, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, Donald Trump is not going to show up. Ted Cruz is challenging him to a one-on-one mano amano
debate. Interesting sideshow. Greatest show on earth. This is not a show. This is serious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is serious but it is become a show. Joining me is Areva Martin, Attorney and legal commentator; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist,
Professor at Pepperdine University; Kurt Schlichter, Attorney, retired Army Colonel and conservative commentator and Ryan Sorba, Young Conservatives of
California.
Well, Donald Trump has taken his toys and gone home. Is not this pretty much what he has done now? And, as a result of -- I am wondering
why everyone is making such a big deal. He was negotiating and just got up from the table. Why is that such a big deal, Areva?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: We had never seen anything like this in presidential politics. I am going to make an analogy that you
would not usually think that would go together. But Black Lives Matter, Donald Trump. Disruption politics.
Black Lives Matter says traditional civil rights leaders were not going to run their program or set their agenda and that is what Donald
Trump is saying to the establishment in the Republican Party.
You are not going to run my agenda or tell me what to do, and I will even walk away from FOX news, which is like the pinnacle of conservative
politics. So, I do not know. We are just in some strange times.
PINSKY: Give me the camera, because I think we just heard a first, which was that Areva Martin says that Donald Trump is following in the
footsteps Of Black Lives Matter.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: Well, you put a little twist on it.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I am just saying, I think that is what you said. I am not sure if that is what you all heard, but that is what I heard. Just moments
ago, Trump told CNN he actually got an apology from FOX news. I do not know why they would apologize but they did. And, here he is talking to --
I am sorry. What is the reporter`s name? Emily, will you help me with that? Brianna Keilar. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just did not think this was a fair process. And, by the time they apologized, I said, "Look, the problem is, we now have a big
event scheduled."
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: They, on the phone, apologized? Is that what the phone call was about? Did you get --
TRUMP: Yes. And, they could not have been nicer.
KEILAR: You got an apology?
TRUMP: TRUMP: Yes. And, they could not have been nicer.
KEILAR: Who apologized?
TRUMP: I do not want to say.
KEILAR: Was this you bailing on this debate, so that you do not have to talk about things --
TRUMP: Not at all.
KEILAR: -- like this issues that you clearly do not want to address?
TRUMP: No at all. I am doing an interview with you. I am doing interviews with Bill O`Reilly.
KEILAR: But, you will not answer the question.
TRUMP: I am answering every question. You hear a long time. I mean a lot longer than it supposed to be. I am doing interviews last night with
Bill O`Reilly and he even said, "I was so surprised you did the interview." I did the interview. I was totally open. I have nothing to hide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Kurt, it really is an interesting policy, though, because think about how this guy strategize himself. People can take aim as they
please. I just think it is so fascinating to me that he is negotiating. He is saying, "OK, I am going to come to this debate but what is in it for
me, really?" And, then he goes, "You know what? I am out."
They go, "OK. OK." It is just like if you are negotiating to buy a car. You go, "Ah, I am not sure I want that car anymore." "OK! Half
price, half price." And, then you are going to go, "You know, I am out completely. What do you got for me now? And, by the way, they want to
give me a nice ford car over here that I like even better, so why are we even having this conversation anymore?" It is that kind of negotiating?
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY AND U.S. ARMY (RET.): You know, I kind of wish FOX kind of took up at him and said, "Look, you human troll doll. If
you are not going to show up at my debate, we are going to leave a nice empty podium here to show what a whoosh you are."
My God! He is so boring and annoying Drew. It is driving me nuts, because I am a real conservative. I believe in conservative principles and
conservative solutions and I have for 40 years. I am not Johnny come lately like this short fingered creep from New York.
PINSKY: Well, Ryan is a young conservative --
SCHLICHTER: Wow. Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Do you agree with him or not?
SCHLICHTER: Well, I think Donald Trump has every right to walk away with his toys. The guy is winning at 41 percent. And, I am a true
conservative. I have been all throughout the entire conservative movement. And, you know what? I am sick and I am tired of losing, Dr. Drew, and we
have been. We have to admit that. We have to admit what is wrong if we are ever going to fix it. We have been losing.
And, Donald Trump represents winning and he is standing up for so many of the values and the beliefs of so many Americans across the country, and
that is why he is resonating. And, that is what the mainstream media does not get is there is a disconnect between the electorate and the mainstream
media. And, he is tapping into it.
[21:05:00] MARTIN: FOX news is now mainstream media. Did you hear it? This conservative now calling FOX news a mainstream media?
PINSKY: Well, that is what Trump has done, right? Their choice seemed outside. But, Judy, I told my viewers last night that I feel like I
am an anthropologist from Mars. I feel like -- and I do. I feel like I have been -- Because I am independent and I have not really picked a horse
in this race yet.
But I feel like somebody plopped me down here from another planet and they went, "Have a look at this. What you see what is going on in the
United States?" What is this phenomenon? That is what fascinates me more than anything else?
Is it just typically the United States goes from one sort of -- I do not want to say extreme, because we never really go extreme. We go to one
position and the pendulum swings back to another. Is it just the pendulum just swimming back o are we watching a pedagogue tapeform in real time? I
do not know. Pedagogue.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: This is not even a pendulum swing back. It is off the hinges, right? I mean he has got his own system
going. He has his own rules and he is defining how he wants to be a candidate. He is not playing by, what was formed before him and everybody
had to participate and everybody talked to media source.
No, he is talking to only the media source that, that put him in a good light. And, of course, that is his choice. My problem, of course, is
if he becomes president and he does not like what some other person has to say at any point during any kind of negotiation. Is he going to walk away
from the playground and take his toys.
SORBA: But what is wrong with negotiating by walking away if the deal is no good?
PINSKY: Very good point.
MARTIN: But, the is the irony.
SORBA: Dr. Drew is about winning -- I mean Donald Trump is about winning.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: No. I am too.
(LAUGHING)
SORBA: And, Dr. Drew is too. But, he is about winning and so he is going to do what is best for the particular deal at the particular time.
SCHLICHTER: The problem is conservatives have been rolling over on their back for so long, been such whooshes, such losers, such failures.
You get a guy like Donald Trump come along and, look, I like a lot of the things he says. He just has zero character and zero leadership ability.
And, I am a veteran, Drew. I have been in a couple of wars. I think leadership is important, particularly when you are sending our soldiers
somewhere. And, that is why I cannot support Donald Trump in the primaries. However, if he is up against that guttering aging windbag of a
socialist or Bernie Sanders, I am voting for him.
HO: Everything he says, though, is just a tag line. It is just a catch phrase. He is only dipping --
PINSKY: Are you talking about Kurt or are you talking about Donald Trump?
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: Kurt and Donald Trump.
HO: No. No. Donald Trump.
MARTIN: And, Donald Trump.
(LAUGHING)
HO: We are talking about Donald Trump because he just skims the surface just enough to tap into the emotional energy of the mass media.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, the thing is, when people`s emotions get tapped in, that is what drives him to the polls. No one is thinking with logic. They do not
think that there is anything deeper. And, this is my fear, that that is how people perceive him and that they are going to vote with their
emotions, which may or may not actually be the best choice.
MARTIN: And, what we have seen in this primary is that, Ryan, no matter what Donald Trump does, there are going to find a way to justify it.
It really just does not matter, because Donald Trump has been telling everyone, "Stand up, be tough, be courageous, be brave."
And, then the minute a woman, a female asks him a question that is a little tough, what does he do? He takes his marbles and goes home." So,
here is a Mr. tough guy with all his bravado and he cannot stand up to Megyn Kelly. But, that does not matter to folks like Ryan, because he can
stand on his stand. He can do twirls in the air and they are going to still support Donald Trump.
SORBA: Areva.
SCHLICHTER: But, Donald Trump is a human equivalent of twisted sisters, we are not going to take.
SORBA: Areva.
SCHLICHTER: OK? He just refuses to take any more and speaks for millions and millions of middle class Americans, who have been dumped on
and abused by the conservative establishment -- republican establishment. And, it hurts me to say that.
PINSKY: Yes. Why does not somebody, then, that is from a more traditional sorts of establishment values tapping into that same stuff --
SCHLICHTER: That is a great question. Why the hell not? Why do not you get up and talk like a human being? Why will not you look at people
and talk about their concerns. Immigration.
PINSKY: Who are you talking about?
SCHLICHTER: You know, there are a lot of people out there not living in D.C.
PINSKY: But, Kurt, who -- are you talking about Cruz or Rubio? Who do you want to speak more like that?
SCHLICHTER: I would love to see Cruz do it. I would love to see Rubio do it except he thinks, "Oh, well, let us everybody on in. I do not
care if it takes your job. I do not care if some illegal alien kills your daughter. That is a small price to pay for me feeling good about , you
know, unlimited immigration."
PINSKY: OK. We are back with Judy, who was talking about playing upon the emotion. I do not know where to go with this but I do know -- I
do not have time to play this tape for you right now, but I have a very interesting tape I want to show you. It is more of Trump.
This stuff is coming in right now in real time as we are live tonight, of course. This stuff is coming in and it is more of that interview on --
I guess it is on his plane, that we were doing it as CNN, that is. And, much more about this particular topic.
But later, we have affluenza. You just saw Nancy reporting on this today. Well, he was brought back today. He is now stateside. He is being
held in a Texas detention facility as a youth, as a youth after killing four people. I have something to say about that after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I am not going to do the debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He will be holding a competing political event in Des Moines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN SPICER, RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: We would love to have him there and love to have all of the candidates there. We will continue to
hold out hope until the last logistical possible moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARRELL SCOTT, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Nobody cares what is going on at that debate tonight. They are all going to be wondering what is Trump
going to be talking about? Trump will probably get more interest by himself tonight than all of the other candidates combined at the debate.
I was supposed to be at the debate. I have tickets for the debate. Maybe I will try to scalp them now or sell them on eBay or something,
because they are virtually worthless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with -- that is funny. Back with Areva, Judy, Kurt and Ryan. We are awaiting that Trump meant to begin -- Trump just give an
interview to CNN`s Brianna Keilar. He thinks dropping the debate in that commentary you just saw -- I agree with him. Dropping the debate will get
him even more attention and more votes. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think you are going to find that a lot of the voters and a lot of the caucus goers, I think they are going to say, "He is the one
person that will stand up for himself when it comes to this country. We have nobody that stands up." I was treated very unfairly. Since then,
fine.
What I say is this. You have to stick up for yourself. You have to fight for yourself and you have to fight for your country. And, a lot of
people are saying, I really respect Trump because he took on the establishment, which in this case is FOX. He took on the establishment.
And, you know who else respects it? FOX respects it and they told me that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:05] PINSKY: Areva, I heard you, you are gaffing --
MARTIN: You know what hit me in that interview, Dr. Drew? How many times he said yourself, yourself, yourself. And, I think that is what is
so troubling to folks like Judy and I that cannot understand why he is surging in the polls or has been at the top for the GOP is this is not
about you, Donald Trump.
This is about America. This is about our country. This is about putting our country on the right track or continuing the work that I think
has been done so incredibly well by President Obama. And, it is not about you and everything now is about him and that is just so narcissistic
demagoguer. Help out on this.
HO: Yes. Yes. I feel like he was watching a hypnosis tape. He was actually telling us exactly what to think and feel about him.
SCHLICHTER: Hypnosis? This is crazy.
(LAUGHING)
HO: He was feeding us the line directly. And, you are right, it is very narcissistic. He said that people think that this is what I am doing
and they like it. Who said that? Who?
PINSKY: Let me float a theory. Let me float a theory. Let me float something. It just occurred to me as I was watching him. I had a little
bit of an emotional reaction. And, I react to what you said too, because I thought, "Yeah, I value some of the progressive progress. The progress we
have made." You are right. There has been progress.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: But, there has been a price. And, what Trump, I suspect, evokes in people is a reminder of absolute freedom or a kind of freedom
that they are craving. He does whatever he wants. And, now we are all tightened down by trying to do what is right and BPC and be this and watch
out for that, and we are very constrained wherever we go. And, here is a guy that gets up and does whatever he wants and there is something
appealing like that.
MARTIN: But, that is not the real world.
PINSKY: I am just saying. I am wondering if that is what they are --
MARTIN: And, I just want to be on the record clear that that freedom that you are talking about that he invokes, he does not invoke that in me
and millions and millions of other people.
PINSKY: I am sure of it.
MARTIN: He invokes fear, racism, bigotry, sexism and so many things that we fought so hard for in this country.
PINSKY: And, you know, I am a super moderate guy. But, I wonder if just the idea of people free to do whatever they want evokes the fantasy
that they are going to fade into bad behavior, right?
HO: So, that is fantasy and not reality.
PINSKY: No, I am just saying. But, we are talking about what is it that people are responding to in this guys. You said it is emotional
energy--
HO: I understand, but he is encouraging escapism and nobody can actually do what he does. They do not have the resources. They do not
have the resources to act the way he does. That is absolute fact. He is Trump. He is allowed to do what he does.
SCHLICHTER: Oh, please do not make me defend Trump. Holy cow. First of all, I do not think he has a racist bone in his body. He is a guy who
is standing up like all Americans should and telling people who want to tell him what to do to go to hell. I like that about him. I do not like
much about him, but I like the way he tells people to go to hell.
PINSKY: But, Kurt, do you suspect, though, maybe that is what people are responding to, is that thing that even you cannot help yourself but to
defend him, which is that quality.
SCHLICHTER: And that quality is there and it is real and I just wish someone with some character and consistency would pick it up instead of
this guy.
PINSKY: Ryan?
SORBA: But, listen, Dr. Drew, people are tired of the thought PC talk police. People are tired of being proctored by individuals in the media.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. I see Areva is back up very straight when you said it. Can we accept -- we better listen because I think I hear that
a lot. People are angry and feel constrained that they feel their aspirations and they are striving for something better and they are sort of
being subjugated to other values that are important but they are kind of that. Is that not true?
MARTIN: Well, I think there is a segment of the population that may be feeling that but we talk about it as if this is the entire country and
it just is not. We are talking about 25 percent of registered voters or republican voters and he has, what? 35 percent or 37 percent of those
voters. So, we are not talking about the 65 percent of a country that are not registered republicans and that are not behind this guy.
SORBA: He is defeating Hillary, head to head.
MARTIN: And, when you say he is not a racist, some of the statements that he is made clearly support divisive conduct that is dangerous to this
country about women, about African-Americans, Muslims --
SORBA: About Rosie O`Donnell.
MARTIN: Now, you can excuse it away because you guys excuse everything away.
SCHLICHTER: I am not excusing anything.
MARTIN: It is always his home. He does not really mean it, but he does.
PINSKY: Let me show you a little tape about what Trump voters say when asked about changing their mind -- some of the issues that you are
talking about Areva. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE TRUMP SUPPORTER: I actually voted for Barack Obama four years ago. Biggest mistake of my entire life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TRUMP SUPPORTER: You have to be careful now. Times have changed. This liberal attitude of let everybody in is unsafe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: So you like his not being politically correct?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TRUMP SUPPORTER: I absolutely like it. I think this country better go back to some of those values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE TRUMP SUPPORTER: Now it is either -- it is Donald Trump or nobody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, the latest CNN poll finds he dominates with men, women, younger voters, older voters, white evangelicals and conservative. Where
he has struggled is college graduates and tea party supporters. But, let us break that down. Intellectuals have always been a little bit whatever.
And very, very conservative. So, here we go.
[21:20:08] SCHLICHTER: I am a movement conservative, OK? I believe in conservative ideology. But, Trump evokes a feeling in people. And,
here is a thing. When you call people racist because they talk about real problems with immigration, real problems with economic disruption and real
problems with crime but you say, "No, you are racist. You cannot talk about it. You are just racist."
Look, the guy lost his job. Somebody got run over by a drunk driver who is here from Guatemala illegally. Those are real problems and you
cannot squash them down by calling people racist and expect them just to go, "Yeah, I guess I am a bad person."
(CROSSTALLK)
MARTIN: I totally agree with you about having real conversations about immigration but using derogatory language is what we normally
associate with racist conduct.
SCHLICHTER: I do not know what you are talking about derogatory, because they are letting criminals in. They are not deporting criminals.
Kate Steinle shot dead by a guy who was arrested five times in the country illegally. Intolerable.
PINSKY: AS it pertains to other candidates sort of jumping onto the Trump coke tails, the undercard candidates are going to crash Trump`s event
tonight. Take a look at this.
(LAUGHING)
MIKE HUCKABEE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is to honor the troops. You know, it is not an endorsement to Donald Trump`s candidacy. I am still
running for president. We got the caucuses Monday night. But, I am delighted to join with Donald Trump in an effort to salute veterans. And,
you know what, I did not have anything going on at 8:00 tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Oh.
SCHLICHTER: Oh.
SORBA: I like Mike Huckabee.
PINSKY: No. It is brilliant of him. Of course that is a good move for him to do that.
HO: Yes.
MARTIN: Yes. I have nothing else going on.
PINSKY: But, the question that begs us discussing and I have got like 20 seconds, which is, do we feel this is minimizing trivializing or
exploiting veterans` issues?
SORBA: Absolutely not.
SCHLICHTER: Yes, it is.
SORBA: No.
SCHLICHTER: And, I am a veteran. He wants to save veterans, have him write a damn check, 10 million bucks. Here you go. Go for it.
PINSKY: Kurt. There is going to be allegedly millions raised.
SORBA: This is a PR opportunity.
PINSKY: That is good enough for me.
SORBA: This is a PR opportunity. He is applying it towards raising money for the vets. There is nothing wrong with that.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, affluenza teen. Oh, yes, a young man has affluenza. First, I am a physician. I will report about infectious
diseases like affluenza. He is back in Texas from Mexico today.
This kid -- I have got a lot to say. I do not know who I am more angry with. Him, his mom or the courts that are holding him as a youth
still when he has killed four people who will never have a chance to speak up about this issue. We will talk about it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The so-called affluenza teen, Ethan couch, who got probation -- that is right, probation for killing four
people in a drunk driving crash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: After a psychologist testified that as a result of being spoiled by his wealthy parents, he suffered from affluenza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: And, how many people need EMS?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Ma`am, I am telling you it is dark. There are four of five kids. There are kids laying in ditches and street.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: His blood alcohol level was three times the legal limit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The teen was seen with blond hair in a video that appeared to show him at a party with alcohol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: They say his mother, Tonya Couch had planned for her son before they were to disappear to Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Right. Affluenza teen. Now, you remember his defense attorney put up a psychologist, an expert witness who made the case that
this poor boy had too much when he was growing up, causing a syndrome, which he characterized as affluenza. Clever. Clever. Now, this man --
and I do mean and his mommy fled the country when he was being faced with prison.
Back with Areva, Judy, Kurt. Joining us, Darren Kavinoky, Attorney, host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery. And, CNN has just
received a statement from the affluenza patient`s lawyer, whom I cannot wait to hear from. It reads in part, "Ethan voluntarily returned to the
United States today. The district court will conduct a brief detention hearing tomorrow. We expect the judge to order Ethan to remain in the
Tarrant County Juvenile Detention Facility at this time". Darren, you held up your hands, well, of course. I think this kid should be held as an
adult.
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, he is going to be held in custody, of course. But, the other thing that made me hold up my hand, Dr. Drew, is
I can tell from your somewhat dismissive tone that you are a little skeptical about the affluenza position as a whole.
PINSKY: Let me just be clear, there is no such syndrome. Judy, back me up on this.
(LAUGHING)
HO: Yes. There is no such syndrome. And, this psychologist who made $15,000 based on his testimony, I hope that was enough for him to sell his
soul, because now he is putting out this idea that apparently affluenza is more potent than the Zika virus, and that is what people are believing now.
KAVINOKY: Let me point something out there. I think you as clinical people can wrap your heads around it and actually will come to agree with.
Affluenza is a horrible shorthand that was used in that report and that the media picked up on and ran with and people love it, because they love to
hate this kid. No question about it. He committed a horrible crime. No question about it.
PINSKY: Stop there. Stop there.
KAVINOKY: No. No.
(LAUGHING)
SCHLICHTER: We are done!
KAVINOKY: That is not the end, because in the juvenile court system, it is. Like it or not --
PINSKY: Yes.
KAVINOKY: Hang on. About rehabilitation and not punishment. But, remember this, when you look at what happened -- forget about calling it
affluenza. When you look at the behavior in that family, you see boundaries that are not held. You see inappropriate behavior from the
parents.
HO: But that is not a problem just because of his --
KAVINOKY: Wealth.
HO: -- ability to have money.
KAVINOKY: It has nothing to do with wealth.
HO: It has nothing to do with that.
KAVINOKY: But by the way, it can happen just as regularly to poor people as it can to rich people. The sad commentary is that in our justice
system, that is a well-underserved population but it is not an either/or. It is not that it only applies to rich people.
PINSKY: Kurt.
SCHLICHTER: Look. Look. Look.
PINSKY: Kurt.
[21:30:00] SCHLICHTER: Just because this guy`s family is a Petridis of human dysfunction does not excuse the fact that he killed four people.
Let me tell you something. Twenty-five years ago, right now, I was in the desert in desert storm as a platoon leader.
You know who were in my platoon? A 17-year-olds in the uniform of the United States going to war acting like adults. I do not buy it, not one
bit. This little bugger ought to be --
KAVINOKY: But, you know the reason he does not act like an adult is because the family that he grows up with.
SCHLICHTER: I agree.
KAVINOKY: Particularly, environment that bred that.
PINSKY: Darren, even Areva saying, "Talk to the hands."
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: I agree that the juvenile system is about rehabilitation. But, I worked with kids in South Los Angeles. I worked with poor kids.
You are going to be hard-pressed to find an African-American, a Latino, poor kid that kills four people and they get to walk out of that --
SCHLICHTER: Absolutely.
MARTIN: -- because some psychologist said their background was so horrible and we know that some of their backgrounds are incredibly
difficult.
PINSKY: And, Darren -- hang on a second there.
MARTIN: -- but they are not going to walk out of there and be in Mexico at a strip bar like this kid was.
PINSKY: I agree with you. Bravo. High five! But, Darren, here is the deal. Darren, you are going to have your way because it is possible
this kid -- get this, everybody, could be out on bail tomorrow; while the mom, who I agree is a causative agent and a contributing enabler, faces up
to ten years.
SCHLICHTER: She is a pathogen.
PINSKY: She is a pathogen.
KAVINOKY: Well, the crime is worse than the cover-up here. The most this kid is looking at -- I keep saying kid. Now, he is a young adult --
PINSKY: Well, why cannot we hold this -- you know, the mothers against drunk driving organization, who is going to be at the hearing
trying to get the judge -- they have 60,000 signatures -- where they are trying to get this judge to look at this kid as an adult.
KAVINOKY: By law, even were that to happen, he is looking at 120 days in jail. That is his exposure and then he gets out because that is what
the system requires.
PINSKY: Judy, our job is about sanity, right?
HO: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. So, let me just talk some sanity here for a second, which is that I am all about recovery. I am all about looking at this kid
as sick. I have no problem with saying there is a sick child with severe addiction, who comes from a dysfunctional, horrible family with boundary
issues, with chaos, with drug addiction.
I deal with it all the time. That is what both of us deal with. But in my opinion, I have infinite patience and infinite justice with allowing
people through the process and embracing the process of treatment and same with the family, same with this mom, bringing her in, giving her the
chance. He had this chance. He failed.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: Not only did he fail, his mom actively contributed to that failure.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: And, guess what happens when people do not participate in treatment? That is it.
HO: That is it.
PINSKY: That is when the legal system steps in.
HO: That is it, and they reoffend. And, he needs actual structure now. He actually needs the discipline and punishment, because we gave the
chance of therapy. We gave his family a chance, but they do not actually believe that they need therapy. She is protecting him from all
consequences.
DARREN: But --
PINSKY: And, hang on, Darren. But, Darren, listen, you are right.
HO: Has to start somewhere.
PINSKY: Had he not killed people, we would give them multiple shots at treatment. But, he killed multiple -- six people.
HO: He will reoffend.
KAVINOKY: This kid got the pass of all passes. He killed four people. And, Areva, you are absolutely right. If this was a poor black
kid, if this was a poor Hispanic kid, God knows what dungeon he would be locked in right now. And, that is wrong.
We cannot have two sets of laws. One for the rich and one for the poor. Now, maybe giving him another chance was the right originally, if he
had gone into treatment and not reoffended. This is a kid who got arrested at 15 with 1.75 liters of grey goose. Damn kids drinks better booze than I
do.
PINSKY: But, that was then, but now he goes to Mexico and hang on those strip bars. I want to show you guys some video. He blew his chance.
It is over. And, just the way it is in fact over for this young man. This guy does not have a voice. It is up to us to see to it that justice is
served for Sergio Malina.
This is Sergio Malina. He was riding in the back of the truck when he crashed. This is the condition he is in now. That is traumatic brain
injury and paralysis. Ethan did that and the others -- what? Four others are dead.
And, so, look, man, all in for recovery and chance that you should have been on your knees begging God for a way through the process. And,
Darren, you are shaking your head at that.
KAVINOKY: I am -- No. I am nodding my head.
PINSKY: By the way, mom helped him, but that is it. We are going to take a break. We are going to keep it going a little bit. And, later,
there are 31 Zika virus cases in the United States tonight.
I will talk to you about what the threat is and how concerned should you be and Darren is running out of here to get a blood test to see if he
got it. Darren, you need not be concerned. Back after this.
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: I am concerned. I am concerned.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ethan couch got drunk, drove, killed four people and injured several others.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ETHAN COUCH, AFFLUENZA TEEN WHO KILLED FOUR PEOPLE: I am taking Valium, hydrocodone, marijuana, cocaine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The teen was only sentenced to probation. His attorneys argued he suffered from affluenza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When is the last time you recall disciplining Ethan for anything?
TONYA COUCH, ETHAN COUCH`S MOM: I do not remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This kid is a drug addict, who failed treatment and ran from the law and now he is engaging in the behaviors of his disease.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Now, ABC is reporting that while he was in Mexico, he racked up a $1,000 bill in booze and alcohol and strip club
and could not pay the bill, so his mother had to pay it for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The addicted child will play upon the mom`s emotions in such a way that the mom will believe if does not continue to rescue the child,
the child will die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Call that by any name you wish, affluenza, drug addiction, co-dependency, it is what it is. He is back stateside in custody tonight.
Enabling mom free on bond. The killer may get out as soon as tomorrow. Back with Areva, Judy, Kurt and Darren. And, Judy, you got some
information on the family and how crazy it was. Yeah?
HO: Yeah.
[21:40:00] PINSKY: And, by the way, let us be clear. We are going to look at this, not to say that it is ok that this kid got away with four
murders, but to understand the things that contribute to addiction and let you know that you better get some treatment lest you ever end up in this
kind of situation.
HO: Right. So, a local magazine named "D" broke this information. Ethan`s parents, Fred and Tonya, were divorced in 2009. And, following
that, social workers went over for an evaluation. They have actually done multiple evaluations before that too. But, in that particular evaluation,
they found that Tonya was possibly addicted to Vicodin and was giving these pills to Ethan on occasion.
She actually called Ethan her protector and made bale and explicit threats to kill herself multiple times. And, during the most stressful
times of their marriage, she moved Ethan`s bed into her bedroom. And, basically, they slept in separate beds even as he grew up even into his
teenage years.
His parents were constantly fighting in front of the school board. At one point, his dad actually locked him in the car and threatened to take
him away and not tell Tonya where they were going.
PINSKY: Now, people are hard to hear that history. They go, "Oh my God. Can you imagine?" Now, that has nothing to do with them having a lot
of money.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: The money is just an ancillary phenomena here.
HO: Right. Right.
PINSKY: It is just a story of a sick family. Right, Darren?
HO: That is right.
KAVINOKY: Totally, totally and completely inappropriate when you hear about Ethan is her protector and bringing him into bed with her.
HO: Yes.
KAVINOKY: All of that. That is like two full scoops of crazy. I think we can all agree.
HO: Oh my God.
SCHLICHTER: Wow!
KAVINOKY: But, ultimately, to me I think it comes down to this kid is not going to be in custody for the rest of his life. What can we do with
him to try and make this situation better. And, ultimately, I know from my own experience and the experience of clients, many, many clients, that
these seemingly horrific experiences can actually be great turn-around moments.
PINSKY: Of course they can be.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: But, hang on. So, follow me on this. So, that does not happen without services. This young man is not going to just go there on
his own.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Everybody, hold on.
KAVINOKY: And, I do not take this as a fan of him--
PINSKY: I want to go to the -- what is his name? The Jamison Monroe that did give this kid services. Do we have the part -- I am sorry. This
is the second -- OK. This is when he talks about this very household. So, he had services. He had treatment. Here is the guy that was involved with
his care. Let us get to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMISON MONROE, TREATED ETHAN COUCH: he was brought up in a very traumatic household, that he witnessed physical abuse between his parents
back and forth, that he was himself a victim of emotional abuse and throughout his childhood. And, then he started to self-medicate with that
at a very young age.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAVINOKY: Well, OK, and I know Jamison Monroe and the fine work that he does in this field. And, so, this is his take on it, and of course, I
would agree with that. And, nothing about that surprises me that he would then blossom in to the kind of misbehavior that he engaged in.
PINSKY: Right.
MARTIN: Give us a break, Darren. Every kid that has been in foster care, every kid that has had a rough life because daddy was on drug, mama
was on drugs, they did not have enough to eat, they slept in their cars, give them the same rights and then we can have empathy for this guy.
KAVINOKY: No. No.
MARTIN: So tell the criminal justice system treats all of these kids the same. You are just making excuses.
(CROSSTALKS)
KAVINOKY: Areva, I am with you that everybody should be treated the same. It is not about money but let us not start by not giving this
reverse discrimination.
PINSKY: Are you identifying too strongly with this case?
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: No. Am I triggered?
PINSKY: Because -- no, not triggered so much. Did you get out just for the grace of God that you have a similar defense and --
KAVINOKY: Oh -- Well, look, for anybody to show my breaking point show in Investigation Discovery. I did interventions on criminals and
should very openly about my own story because I was a criminal. There is no question that I walked in those shoes.
PINSKY: But did you, but for the grace of God, get through that and did somebody see you and give you a break and that is why you got through
or did you -- listen --
KAVINOKY: Yes.
PINSKY: Did you get the message when you nearly killed somebody and turned it around? Thank God you did not kill somebody.
KAVINOKY: You know what was interesting. My pivotal moment was not one of those flame-out kind of bottoms, because I had them, right? And,
you have heard in recovery, the bottom is wherever you choose to stop digging. I think it is actually where you choose to stop digging and then
stop picking it up the damn shovel, which is my problems, because I keep picking it up again.
So, on the night that I had my own pivotal moment, I had not wrecked the car that night, but I had wrecked a bunch of cars. I had not been to
jail that night, but I had been to jail five times --
PINSKY: But, you had a moment of clarity. You had a moment of clarity.
HO: Ethan has not had a moment of clarity. And, even if he might had had the moment of clarity, his parents blocked him from it and never let
him experience this.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: So, this is the problem. Ethan does not understand consequences.
KAVINOKY: So, he needs help.
HO: No. But, he has been trying to get help and failed the system. So, we have to try something else. We have to actually be the people to
give him the consequences.
PINSKY: But, listen --
HO: The system has to parent him.
PINSKY: I would argue that, that is the role of the justice system.
HO: Exactly.
PINSKY: That mental health is an important intervention insofar as people are willing to allow it to be an intervention. Darren is not Ethan.
Ethan is not Darren. I am sorry. You know, I wish Ethan could have responded. I wish he could have.
(CROSSTALK)
[21:45:00] SCHLICHTER: Look, just because he grew up in what is technically known as a freak show is no excuse. It is a reason. And, we
can learn from it.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHLICHTER: But what he needs now is to learn from accountability.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SCHLICHTER: Hard, painful accountability. Being nice has not helped. Offering him therapy has not helped. Maybe kicking him in the butt, maybe
that will help.
PINSKY: We will have to talk about it after the break. And, I got a video of him and the mom being deposed. You got to see this. And, I am
going to get into the -- the Zika virus, everybody. Like I said, Darren is running for the door. It is hard terrible, terrible consequences in the
southern hemisphere.
The question is, who should be concerned up here in the United States? Should pregnant women really being traveling? Should they be getting
tested? Microcephaly has been the consequence. A tiny brain in newborn infants. That is serious business. We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Areva, Judy, Kurt and Darren. Now, Ethan, affluenza boy and his mom were deposed in a civil suit -- I know, I choke
on it. What are you going to do? Look at this from ABC news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When is the last time you recall disciplining Ethan for anything?
TONYA COUCH: I do not remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ETHAN COUCH: I am taking Valium, hydrocodone, marijuana, cocaine, Xanax. I tried ecstasy once.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you remember pulling out of the driveway?
ETHAN COUCH: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What is the next thing you recall?
ETHAN COUCH: Waking up handcuff in the hospital bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Judy, this is drug addiction, straight out. But, it is also, rather than affluenza, it is a parenting deficit. I cannot think of
a good word for that --
HO: Right.
PINSKY: But I hope people understand that we have got to parent our kids.
HO: That is right. You need to monitor them and you need to keep them children. You need to be the parents. And, unfortunately, both
Ethan`s parents adultified him. They gave him exposure to way too many adult things and adult substances --
PINSKY: At the time of those interviews -- if you want to get outraged with his affluenza -- I think I am catching the affluenza because
that kid was 16, living alone in a 4,000 square -oot home doing his ecstasy with a wet bar.
HO: That is right.
PINSKY: Areva?
SCHILCHTER: What was he, a rapper?
MARTIN: The criminal justice system gave him a same --
PINSKY: If he was a rapper, he would be in prison.
SCHLICHTER: He has a great future in heavy metal, if he only got to play an instrument.
MARTIN: The point is, the parents do not parent. The criminal justice system needs to step in --
HO: That is right.
SCHLICHTER: Damn right.
MARTIN: -- and hold criminals like him accountable.
SCHLICHTER: Yes.
MARTIN: And, they failed him.
PINSKY: There you go. Stay with us. I am going to give you details about the Zika virus. What you should need to know about that virus.
Should you run scare? Is this the pandemic that is going to take down the human race? Not. Be back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The enemy here is the mosquito.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What makes Zika so scary is this alarming connection between the virus and microcephaly. That is babies being born
with heads and brains that are too small.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. MARGARET CHAN, DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF WHO: The explosive spread of Zika virus to new geographical areas is cause for concern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There is no vaccine to prevent Zika or a medicine to treat the infection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, if you are going to listen to that report, you might think you better run, like Darren did, run out of here and get a blood
test.
KAVINOKY: I did. I am waiting for the results.
PINSKY: There are 31 cases I think here in the United States. Two of them locally here. It is in the southern sections and it is sort of -- it
is in South America. It is a concern. It is a real thing. And, it causes devastating effect in a small, small percentage of pregnant women. I am
back with Areva, Judy, Kurt and Darren.
And, people asking me constantly, should I worry? Should I worry? Look, this just came out from the L.A. County Health update. Pregnant
woman in any trimester should consider postponing travel to areas where Zika virus transmission has been going on.
They are also -- pregnant women who have returned from infected areas, should be tested, some blood test for the virus. But, the rest of us, even
if we get it, four out of five times you will not even notice that you have it. It is a very mild illness. It is transmitted by a mosquito. Darren -
-
KAVINOKY: No. Drew, I mean no one has ever accused me of being overly smart. But, is not there some way to eliminate the problem at the
source? I do not know. Is there some chemical warfare?
PINSKY: Well --
(LAUGHING)
SCHLICHTER: We could always use -- I do not know an effective pesticide to kill mosquitoes. I do not know, DDT? They can do that.
KAVINOKY: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Mosquito-borne illnesses world-wide is a massive, massive. And, if you go down to the Caribbean or south of Texas, any of the
countries down in the southern, southern regions of this part of the world, you are really going to encounter some very serious illnesses, like Dengue
fever, Chikungunya.
Similar viruses, similar transmission, much more serious illnesses than Zika. But because of the microcephaly, the fact that a small number
of babies are born with tiny brains and those tiny brains are -- that is no bueno, right? If you are a pregnant woman, I think it is a good idea not
to travel down there. It is a good idea.
If you have been down there, come on up and get tested. But, apparently, the ultrasonographers are telling me that women are freaking
out. They are all running in there to test my baby`s brain. Relax, everybody.
MARTIN: Are there any symptoms, though, that women should be aware of?
PINSKY: It is like any other severe viral illness. If it makes you sick but most often you do not even know you have it.
HO: And, then as a correct -- I think I read this on CDC that after you have it and developed symptoms that are asymptomatic, you then develop
immunity to it.
PINSKY: That is right.
HO: And, then --
PINSKY: They will develop a vaccine. They are working hard on it. The bottom line is, A. You are about as likely to win the Powerball than to
get one of these illnesses. There is so many other serious things that could happen to us, any of us, in the next 30 minutes that are much more
likely than this thing.
But, it is something that you should be aware of and if you are pregnant and if you are planning to travel, let us not do it. Let us stay
home and why not diminish your risk, right?
SCHLICHTER: So, basically, you are at more risk from some poorly parented little drunken creep running into your car?
PINSKY: Yeah, I would say so.
MARTIN: How would you know if your child has in any way been impacted by this virus? I know the women --
PINSKY: In utero?
MARTIN: Yeah.
PINSKY: That would via ultrasound. That is why women are running and they are getting ultrasounds.
KAVINOKY: And, it is just pregnant women at risk. So, I do not need to rush back out to the lab to see how my test is --
PINSKY: And, typically, the first trimester is when you really have to worry about it. Darren, I do not know if you are pregnant right now or
not but I think --
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: I do not know.
SCHLICHTER: He is not showing.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: I think it is Judy that we should be concerned about, the newly married person.
KAVINOKY: Yes, congratulations.
SCHLICHTER: Bravo!
PINSKY: She is going down to Mexico. She is going on vacation.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: DVR us, please. Thank you, panel. Great job. You can DVR us then watch us anytime. We appreciate you watching us and supporting the
program. Check us out on Facebook, INSTAGRAM. We will see you next time.
[22:00:10] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
