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Dr. Drew
The Shocking Admission From Charlie Sheen`s Doctor; Samir Chachoua Claims To Have A Cure For HIV; Bill Cosby Might Not Have To Face Sexual Assault Charges; Three Cases Of Teachers Accused Of Having Sex With Underage Students Near Same School. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 01, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:09] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: And, tonight, Charlie Sheen HIV positive, but has he been cured? That is what a controversial physician is
claiming. Plus Bill Cosby, the comedian might not have to face sexual assault charges. Could he walk away unscathed?
It all starts right now with the shocking admission from a so-called doctor, who worked with Charlie Sheen. In fact, he says he injected
himself with Charlie Sheen`s blood. Samir Chachoua claims to have a cure for HIV.
He says he treated Sheen, who is known to be HIV positive with his methods. And, a few weeks ago, Charlie Sheen told Dr. Oz, he had stopped taking his
HIV medication. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. MEHMET OZ, TURKISH-AMERICAN CARDIOTHORACIC SURGEON: Why would you take a risk of not taking a cocktail that seems to really be working well for
you?
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: Well, actually, I did not see it as Russian roulette.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: I am seeing there is a mantra. You know, just down your meds, down your meds, down your meds. I have been off the meds for about a week now.
And, I always feel great. And, yes, am I risking my life? Sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. OZ: Charlie traveled to Mexico searching for an experimental treatment from a doctor I have never heard of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM "BILL" MAHER, TALK SHOW HOST (voice-over): He claims to know how to cure cancer and AIDS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMIR CHACHOUA, AUSTRALIAN DOCTOR FROM MEXICO WHO CLAIMED HAVE CURED CHARLIE SHEEN`S HIV: These goats have a virus called CAEV and this virus
destroys HIV. Within a first hours of the first treatment, Charlie was running, throwing ball, he was out in the daylight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHER: You took Charlie`s blood when he was HIV positive and injected it into yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: He pulled some out of that and he stuck it in the top of his forearm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I have so much to say about this, it is very frustrating for me. Understand that Charlie Sheen, when he presented to this so-called doctor,
who does not have a license, has never published anything, he knew -- the physician knew, that Charlie did not have any virus in his blood. So, he
could safely inject it.
In fact, there are programs out there to help HIV drug users -- excuse me - - HIV-positive IV drug users not to infect one another by keeping the viral loads at close to zero or zero.
Joining me to discuss, Sara Azara, Criminal Defense Attorney; Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm, legal analyst for Avvo.com; Joseph
C. Phillips, actor and conservative commentator, and Scott Nevins, HIV Awareness Activist. Scott, I am sure you feel like I do. It is so
frustrating. People look at this and say, "Oh, CAEV, fantastic!"
No. First of all, CAEV is a virus that causes arthritis in goats. So, this doctor goes, oh, I know if people drink goat milk, therefore -- just
because Charlie Tioger blood or whatever, they are goat mild therefore, the goat milk -- the virus in the goat milk gets into them, so they will not
get HIV.
How does it even get into the system? It gets destroyed in the stomach, number one. And, number two, HIV is embedded in the DNA of ourselves, in
the reservoir. There is no known mechanism to remove the virus from this reservoir.
SCOTT NEVINS, HIV AWARENESS ADVOCATE: Exactly, I love you so much. You are just so good at this. This is our modern day snake oil salesman. This
is exactly what it is. And, it is very scary that when someone like Charlie Sheen, who is so public gives somebody like this a platform and
Bill Maher gives somebody like this a platform. It is very dangerous --
PINSKY: It sets us back.
NEVINS: Yes, it sets us back so much. The conspiracy theory saying, "Oh, now, pharmaceutical companies are hiding the cure from us."
PINSKY: And, I wish that were the case, because every one of us would go out there and go, "Let us go get the cure for cancer. Let us get the cure
for HIV." Why would we not? I would run down right now and get it if it had a single --
JOSEPH PHILLIPS, ACTOR: Goat milk.
PINSKY: What is that?
PHILLIPS: And, if it is just goat milk.
PINSKY: And, by the way, I have got prostate cancer, everybody. I would love the cure. I have got cancer, give me the cure. For those of us with
these conditions, it is unconscionable you can make us feel like this. Forget me as a physician. I am angry about that. Me as a patient --
NEVINS: Yes.
PINSKY: -- makes me furious.
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND LEGAL ANALYST: Is not it also dangerous information for people, who are having sex with people who are
HIV positive. And, even if the viral load is low, of course they should still be having protected sex, right?
PINSKY: Yes. You want to talk about what happened --
NEVINS: Yes. Yes. So, I am actually on a pill called PrEP, Truvada. And, what it does I basically block the virus. When you take it every day
on your course -- you have to take it every day. It, basically, stops the virus from entering your cells.
So if I was to have sex with somebody who is HIV positive, who is on their medication and is undetectable, which means their viral load is
undetectable, I actually cannot catch it from them. And, there are now studies coming forth saying that when these people are on their meds, it is
hard for them to transmit the disease. But, you are right, I am advocate of, "Always use a condom."
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Because that is one of the concerns about PrEP, Lisa, is that people get casual about condom use and then our other STDs will go up,
Chlamydia, syphilis and gonorrhea, which low and behold that is what we are seeing right now particularly in Los Angeles. By the way, in Los Angeles -
- everybody, congratulations, we are number one for STDs right now. You seem to have something to say.
[21:05:03] SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean I just think it is so interesting to me that this wacky doctor comes forward and
is making these inconsistent statements. Sheen himself is saying that his count went up. And he is saying he is HIV negative I mean Sheen, himself,
is saying that his count went up. And, he is saying -- if he is HIV negative and he is saying, he is the first adult to be HIV negative, when
before he made a statement saying that in 2006, he cured an entire island of HIV.
PINSKY: OK. There is so much to get into here.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Drew, let me just say this. Charlie Sheen, winning that whole period, the guy clearly has mental issues.
PINSKY: Yes, he was manic.
PHILLIPS: If I am suffering cancer or HIV, I am not going to listen to Charlie Sheen. I will listen to "Magic Johnson, who went on the program,
exercised, and now this guy is the healthiest guy in America.
PINSKY: But -- you are absolutely correct. The people are vulnerable. So, let us -- Where should I start? So, the island of Comoros. He says
now he cured the entire island. They have no HIV deaths. A simple Google search will show you that there are lots of HIV deaths in Comoros. It is
just where it is.
And, as far as the CAEV virus, there is just no evidence. And, please Dr. Chachoua, publish your data. I just want to say to everybody who has used
extreme treatments or these so-called treatments that are outside of the mainstream, I welcome that.
The idea he had was a great one, which is there are weird spontaneous remissions of cancers and certain infectious diseases, inflammatory
diseases like arthritis that suddenly get better.
He took those populations and studied those populations. Hats off to you man for that idea, but then let us do science. Let us do science the way
it is supposed to be done. Here he is telling Bill Maher why he injected himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHER: You took Charlie`s blood when he was HIV positive and injected it into yourself. And, Dr. Oz says, "That is very inappropriate." What I
thought was that is, "That is confident."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHACHOUA: I saw a very sad person in a very sad place, and I really wanted to give him a boost that there was real hope out there, there was a
way of curing him. And, I did that. It was spontaneous. But, you know, Oz is right. It would be crazy for him to do that, because Oz does not
have a real AIDS treatment, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Joseph, as you said, there is -- you can live a long normal life span with HIV if you take treatment. To try to look for a cure right
now, it is embedded in the DNA. We do not have a way to splice out DNA. We just do not have it.
PHILLIPS: But, this also -- what is interesting to me about this is it really speaks to the desperation that people who are ill have.
PINSKY: That is right.
PHILLIPS: Cancer --
PINSKY: That is right.
PHILLIPS: And, in pursuing nontraditional treatments, I remember years ago it was the pits, the seeds of apricots. People are going down to Mexico in
hopes of curing their cancer, and on and on. He says he is selling hope, and that is exactly what he is selling and along with snake oil or goat`s
milk. What he really is offering is hope and people are desperate for it.
PINSKY: The problem is, and you will agree with me, Scott, on this, when you sell hope to someone for whom there is already immense hope, he just
does not like taking medicines. You hear him in that tape. Charlie Sheen is saying, the mantra of take your meds, take your meds. Do you know the
number one risk of AIDS patient or HIV patient, is compliance. That is their number one risk.
NEVINS: And, that is what I was going to say. Did you know that, out of everyone who is HIV positive, only 30 percent of those people are on their
daily regimen of pills. If we want to end this disease, we have to get everyone who is HIV positive to take their medications and the disease
would be eradicated.
PINSKY: And to be fair, back to your PrEP, Scoot, your take. And, this is a pre-exposure prophylaxis is what it is called.
NEVINS: Yes.
PINSKY: It is the same medicine that you take for HIV treatment.
NEVINS: One of the meds, yes.
PINSKY: Right. But, Truvada -- I mean you can take Truvata plus something else.
NEVINS: Yes.
PINSKY: But, how do you feel? Horrible?
NEVINS: No. Great. And, actually, it is so weird, this was not planned. I got a call from doctor back stage that I went in for my three-month blood
work and everything came back perfect.
PINSKY: Yes, but the point is Charlie not liking the side effects. It usually is typically very mild?
NEVINS: Very mild nowadays. And, by the way, hope is so good because the hope is that we have doctors who are working so hard and we are so close to
getting injectible vaccines. So, people are not taking pills every day.
We are getting close to gene therapy, which is going to make a huge difference in this society. So, for this guy to come and really play on
people`s emotions, it is like, you know, step back and stop trying to make yourself famous and let us actually help the people who are in need.
BLOOM: And, you look a lot better than Charlie Sheen, my friend.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, Lisa, I want to talk about --
PHILLIPs: I want to say the same --
PINSKY: I want to know if he is fraud when we get back, because I want to know if this is fraud or not. We will continue the conversation.
Later, Bill Cosby could sexual allegations cases, are the one in particular, go away on a technicality? We will talk about that more after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHACHOU (via phone): I drew some blood from him and I injected myself with it. And, I said, "Charlie, if I do not know what I am doing, then we are
both in trouble right now, are not we?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. OZ: It is pretty inappropriate.
SHEEN: Inappropriate and completely mind-blowing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That was from the "Dr. Oz Show". And, let us remind ourselves, Charlie had no circulating virus in his blood, so for that doctor -- he
knew this much, to inject himself with that blood, it has no infecting agent in it, because of his antiviral therapy. Charlie, of course, has
been seeking alternative treatments for his HIV.
In Mexico the doctor, who says he cured him, admits this that he did inject himself with Charlie`s blood. Let us remind ourselves also that Charlie
came home, came off his meds, and lo and behold, his HIV is back. Low and behold. Back with Sara, Lisa, Joseph and Scott Nevins from "The People`s
Couch", which airs Friday on Bravo. So, Lisa, why is this not fraud?
BLOOM: Maybe it is, you know. I have a lot of questions about this doctor.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead.
BLOOM: And about Charlie Sheen. I am not a fan of Charlie Sheen. I am actually more concerned about his sex partners, because if he believes that
he is completely safe, then does he have to engage in protected sex? He says he always does.
[21:15:00] There have been people who have come forward publicly, including one I represented, who said that was not the case. So, I think
this just creates a swirl of confusion, and frankly, it leads to dangerous behavior.
PINSKY: Sara, fraud?
AZARI: Well, his statements are so inconsistent. There is no science like you said, to back it up, that I think --
PINSKY: And, you guys -- Listen. He has had this suit against cedars and UCLA.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: And, if you go online and read about it -- because it is there. All these materials are online, where he claims he won a suit. Well, he
won some sort of judgment way down the line after burning through multiple attorneys.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: So, burning through attorneys, what is that?
BLOOM: It is always a bad sign.
AZARI: Yes. That is a bad sign. That means do not take the client.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That is right. That is exactly right. It is like burning through physicians. It is the same thing.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: You go, because attorneys want to win cases that are winnable.
AZARI: Right. Right.
PINSKY: By the way -- and also the idea -- well, let me show you how he discovered this cure for AIDS. And, I want to comment on about this. Take
a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHACHOUA: So, I found a place in Mexico with all the IV drug users, prostitutes -- all the high-profile things that are necessary for AIDS, but
I did not find AIDS. What I found was that people there were drinking milk from goats, which had arthritis. These goats have a virus called CAEV, and
this virus destroys HIV and protects people who drink it for life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is right, and the stomach acid destroys the virus if you drink the milk, so how does it get into these people`s system? How does
that work, exactly? But, there is a bigger problem here. And, that is that he has taken a patient that is vulnerable, who is on a good treatment
and he has misled him.
My question is why do not you publish your data? He claims that UCLA stolen hundred -- 15 years ago. He sued them. He burned through bunch of
attorneys. But my thing is, "Hey, guess what? Science is about reproducibility." One publication will mean nothing. So, you have had 15
years to reproduce your studies. Why have not you? Why have not you? Right?
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Anybody? Explain to me why yes.
NEVINS: You know what he does produce publicly is on his website a flee for money telling people he can cure them.
PINSKY: Right.
NEVINS: That is a snake oil sales man. There is no cure. I want to say this before. There is one documented case of somebody, who is cured from
HIV, and people should Google the Berlin patient. It is a man, who underwent stem cell because he was having leukemia --
PINSKY: You know what? Even that guy is coming back now, it looks like.
NEVINS: Yes.
AZARI: So, if he is actually -- if he is going on his website and claiming that he is going to cure them and it is for profit and people are relying
on that statement and going to him for treatment --
PINSKY: Fraud.
AZARI: That is absolutely fraud.
PINSKY: OK.
PHILLIPS: Wait a minute.
AZARI: And, he will lose his license that he have.
PHILLIPS: I have a legal question.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Because no doctor is going to be able to promise you that his treatment can cure you, and so --
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: But you should be able to educate your patients what is a curable treatment --
PHILLIPS: I know. I am addressing the issue of a doctor saying, "Listen, I can treat your AIDS. And, I think I can cure it. And, then if you are
not cured, then you call fraud." So my question --
BLOOM: Well, no. That is a big difference between "I think I can cure it, the chances are such and such".
AZARI: Right.
BLOOM: And "I guarantee you I have a cure."
PINSKY: I have the cure.
PHILLIPS: So, that is the difference. I have a question.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Just about the sex partners. Because I think I give human beings a lot more credit than perhaps they are due.
(LAUGHING)
Because I cannot imagine anyone looking at Charlie Sheen and having him tell you, "You know what? I am cured because I drink some goat milk".
And, her saying, "Oh, hey! Let us go, then."
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Right.
PHILLIPS: I do not know.
BLOOM: Well, but the thing is the law in California actually requires HIV positive people to disclose their status before they have sexual
intercourse.
PINSKY: And, let me just say, we did reach out to this Dr. Chachoua`s organization for comment --
PHILLIPS: Even if he drink goat milk?
BLOOM: Even for goat milk drinking.
PINSKY: We also have some footage here from Dr. Oz of Charlie`s actual physician on the show, and here is what he told Charlie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT HUIZENGA, M.D., SHEEN`S PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN: It would just break my heart if you did anything where you threw that opportunity, threw that
incredible advance against this horrible disease away and went back to where we were several decades ago, where this disease was a killer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. OZ: What would it require for you to go back on your medications?
SHEEN: I am going to take them on the flight home. What am I, an idiot?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING AND LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But as I understand it, he did not take them. His HIV came back and then he ended up having to take them. Butm help me, guys, why do
people have this weird belief -- I understand they want hope when there is not one. But why do you have to believe there is some magic out there?
This is a perfect example of something I talk about all the time. With special people when they get special care, they get crappy care.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: It happens all the time.
BLOOM: Like Michael Jackson`s doctor.
PINSKY: Perfect example. He is a poster child for that. Everybody, the standard of care is the standard because it is the best, period, end.
People like you hold us accountable to that.
BLOOM: You are welcome.
PINSKY: The attorneys make sure of that. And, if we did not, how fast would you be up our butts about that?
AZARI: Yes.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: All right. So, if there is -- no, it is true. If there was any evidence of anything else, A. we would all jump all over it.
Why would not we want to grab onto it, invest in it, be a part of it, be a part of the cure of AIDS and cancer, of course, we would.
And, then if we did, we claimed something that was untrue or even slightly inaccurate or had not been reproduced in pure literature, this guy had zero
to offer, zero to offer. These two would be up my butt personally within about five minutes. Right?
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: I think people just love conspiracy theories and they want things to be simpler than they really are. There is this magical formula out
there and that everybody has been keeping it from us. Right?
AZARI: Right.
BLOOM: It is a better story than, well, actually, there are a lot of meds that help and if you take them every day, you are going to be fine.
PINSKY: All right. We are going to switch gears. We will talk about Bill Cosby next. He is putting up a big fight to get the sex charges against
him dismissed. Apparently, there is something that he may have a good case. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:03] BLOOM: Andrea Constand in 2004 or 2005 said that Cosby had sexually assaulted her. The prosecutor at that time would not prosecute.
She get civil attorneys. The civil attorneys take his deposition. And, a lot of that testimony was publicly revealed just last year, 2015.
And, he made a lot of incriminating statements like he got Quaaludes, gave it to the women. He says consensually. They say not consensually. When
asked, you know, point blank, "She says she was not able to consent to sex with you because she was so out of it." He said, "I do not know." I think
his strategy is to fight, fight, fight all of the cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, the question remains will he ever face his accuser in court? The legal team hopes a judge will dismiss the sexual assault case against
him. Back with Sara, Lisa, Joseph and joining us Jim Clemente, former FBI Profiler. So, he says he had no prosecution deal, Lisa, is that for real?
What is that?
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: And, by the way, no documentation? How does that work?
BLOOM: So, first of all, I agree with everything I said before. In this case, this is the strangest case in Bill Cosby`s myriad strange cases,
right? So, he has always been very well represented, right? He is wealthy, powerful. He can hire the best lawyers in the country.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: I got three law firms up against me and my case, Janice Dickinson`s case. So, in 2005, he had a lawyer, who he says made an immunity deal with
the prosecutor. And, that means that he would not be criminally prosecuted, and in exchange he could then testify in the civil case, which
he did. His attorney is now deceased. The prosecutor from 2005 says, "Yes, I did make that immunity deal." It is not reduced to writing.
PINSKY: When he is a D.A., right? The former D.A.
BLOOM: Yes. He was the elected D.A.
PINSKY: And, so, he is a legitimate source. It is not just some guy that --
BLOOM: Yes, but immunity deals are reduced to writing.
PINSKY: What do you mean, reduced to writing?
BLOOM: It means they are put down in written form.
PINSKY: There has to be.
BLOOM: They are made --
PINSKY: So, there is no oral agreement like this.
BLOOM: Dr. Drew, can you imagine --
PINSKY: No!
BLOOM: If I represented you and I made a deal that you would not be prosecuted and I said, "You know what? We do not need to put it in
writing. You will be fine." Would not you be a little bit uncomfortable with that?
PINSKY: I have never heard of such a thing but this D.A. have spoken up and said, "Yeah, I did that."
AZARI: Right. And, he held a press conference back in day and said, "I am not going to prosecute Bill Cosby" --
PINSKY: So, is that on tape? Is that enough?
AZARI: -- but Bill Cosby has detrimentally relied on this protection and went ahead and testified in a deposition. I mean I think even Brandan
Dassey`s lawyer would invoke the fifth amendment, you know.
(LAUGHING)
The fact that this guy goes and makes some very incriminating statements, I mean I have my own views on whether those statements are explainable or
not,. But the fact that his lawyer does not tell him to invoke his fifth, to me that is evidence that he relied on this non-prosecution deal.
BLOOM: OK.
AZARI: And, maybe it was reduced to writing and that lawyer is dead and we do not know where that writing is.
BLOOM: No. I am sorry, it does not work that way. If, God forbid, if I dropped dead tomorrow all my clients would be protected because my computer
does not die with me, my files do not die with me. And, all of the attorneys and staff in my law firm would make sure that my clients were
still protected. Do you mean to tell me Bill Cosby did not get that?
PINSKY: Now, Joseph -- hang on.
PHILLIPS: Well, I have this question. The reason you put it in writing is because --
BLOOM: Because people`s memories fade, people lie.
PHILLIPS: Exactly, but now we have a witness, somebody testifying that yes, in fact, there was that agreement.
BLOOM: Yes, but what were the terms of the agreement? For example, were the terms that is just the 2005 prosecutor would not prosecutor or nobody
ever would prosecute, including the new guy?
AZARI: I think a non-prosecution agreement, as you know, binds that office. It does not just bind that particular D.A. I mean if that D.A.
dies --
PINSKY: Speaking of memory, you were actually on "The Cosby Show," right?
PHILLIPS: Yes, I was.
PINSKY: Is this the man -- all this stuff that we are hearing about him, is this something that is just utterly shocking to you or is this not the
guy you knew at all?
PHILLIPS: Well, absolutely, because we were talking in the back about whether or not you loved Bill Cosby. I did love Bill Cosby. I still do
love Bill Cosby. I actually real love this man. He was an idol of mine. Being on the show, meeting him, being able to work with him was an absolute
dream come true.
Bill Cosby was funny. He was smart. He was helpful. He was wise. He was friendly, benevolent, all of those things. That is the man that I know.
This man that we are talking about, this man that is being deposed and is all in the press, that is not the Bill Cosby I know.
PINSKY: But yet, Joseph, I heard you had a friend who claimed she had been sexually assaulted.
PHILLIPS: Absolutely. And, for the longest time I defended Bill. There were things I did not understand about some of the stories. Things that,
quite frankly, it is a small show business town and there were things in people`s stories that I cannot say I knew not to be true, but through the
grapevine I heard were not exactly true.
PINSKY: But, you knew he was cheating on Camille.
[21:30:00] PHILLIPS: Oh, yes. But, then sitting down, talking with my friend and then saying, "Well, I believe her." Then that must mean that he
is guilty of at least --
PINSKY: Before I get your profiling point of view, was it the usual story with some intoxicant involved and all that business?
PHILLIPS: Yes, it followed along --
PINSKY: The pattern.
PHILLIPS: -- the same lines.
BLOOM: 57 women.
PHILLIPS: There were a lot of things that were --
PINSKY: So, Jim, what is this?
JIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: I just want to tell you, Joseph, that is not unusual. You knew the man in his public and even semi-private
personality. But, people in their sexual behavior -- sexual behavior is typically private. Criminally sexual behavior is extremely private.
And, that is not something that we talk about to everybody, certainly if we are committing crimes doing it. So, it is not unusual that you would not
know. But, it is a lot like the Sandusky case, where the people closest to him thought he was a saint. But for 30 to 40 years, he was sexually
victimizing boys around him.
Everybody looked at the good things he did and I am sure he was helpful to you. But, you may have seen leakage, you may have seen him be controlling
or very -- like come down hard on people who were doing exactly what he wanted. If you recognize those things, they are consistent with the kind
of controlling behavior he exhibits in his defending behavior.
PINSKY: So, controlling would be -- what is it about --
CLEMENTE: Well, it is absolute domination, in fact. You know, there are people who have sexual fantasies that span a spectrum. Some of them are
very safe and secure and some of them are criminal. When you are trying to have sex, when you fantasize about having sex with somebody, who is not
only not compliant but incapable of doing anything, of not participating at all. Most men, that would not turn them on.
PINSKY: Right.
CLEMENTE: But, this type of man, --
PINSKY: So, you are saying --
CLEMENTE: -- where he is in total dominance.
PINSKY: So, you are saying that type of person likes to dominate generally.
CLEMENTE: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: But you may not see it explicitly except through leakage.
CLEMENTE: Leakage.
PINSKY: So, outbursts of various kinds. Did you ever see that, Joseph?
PHILLIPS: Not at all.
PINSKY: Yes. And, is it interesting, though -- it is such a weird thing when someone actually legitimately does good things. I mean I do not want
to take away the good acts he did.
BLOOM: Same with a catholic priest, right? Twenty years ago. Nobody could have ever believe that a catholic priest would harm a child. Then
there was this massive scandal. And, we all had to change our minds and recognize it was actually fairly widespread in the catholic church.
I mean every single time there is a sexual assault or abuse case involving a celebrity or a person in authority, we all say, "Oh my God! How could
that happen? I cannot believe it. I really love that guy." And, I think the challenge is now to hold in our mind -- yes, I loved Cosby in the `80s,
too, but when 57 women come forward with this claim, I mean we have to take a different kind of look at it.
PINSKY: All right, we are going to keep it --
AZARI: But not all 57 women are saying that they were drugged or assaulted. Some are saying, he grabbed my arm a little too hard. I mean -
-
BLOOM: Attempted sexual assault or sexual assault.
AZARI: Yes, but the media is protecting this man, who has not had his day in court.
PHILLIPS: Some of them are consensual relationship as well.
BLOOM: We are trying to get a day in court and he is keeping all the women out of court. He is fighting every day to stay out of court.
PINSKY: All right. Hold it. We are going to pick it up right there when we come back. And, later, three cases of teachers accused of having sex
with underage students, all in the same vicinity at the same school. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bill Cosby is now facing criminal charges for the first time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Actor and comedian Bill Cosby has officially been charged with three counts of sexual assault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Andrea Constand, who worked with Temple University Women`s Basketball Team accused Cosby of drugging then
assaulting her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Some 50 women have alleged similar sexual assaults over a period of four decades.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Cosby has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, he could get up to ten years if convicted. His defense team is battling to have all the charges dismissed. Back with Sara, Lisa and
Joseph C. Phillips, who appeared on "The Cosby Show" and Jim. And, you guys before the break were talking about how he had not had his day in
court yet, and Lisa, you were saying?
BLOOM: He fights to keep women out in every single court, including tomorrow in Pennsylvania based on some cockamamie agreement that was never
put in writing from ten years ago. This is how he gets away with it again and again according to the women.
AZARI: As he should, but some of these women may very well testify in Pennsylvania. And, if they do, they are going to be cross-examined.
BLOOM: That is fine.
AZARI: Which is --Their stories could fall apart. I mean it takes me back to the day when Tom Mesereau was representing Michael Jackson. And, the
prosecution thought, they had all this great witnesses coming on and saying the same thing. And, there was this pattern, and there is this M.O. and
guess what? The testimony started falling apart on cross examination.
PHILLIPS: So, I do not understand --
BLOOM: Yes, but listen, my client is Janice Dickinson and all she wants is her day in court and have been fighting --
AZARI: And, no money? She does not want any money?
BLOOM: Listen. What she wants is an apology and she has said publicly, and I have said publicly, if he will admit what he did and apologize, case
dismissed.
PHILLIPS: Oh, yeah?
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: But, let me tell you, what we have been doing for almost nine months --
AZARI: Good luck with that.
PHILLIPS: He will just apologize and that would be the end of it? I want to know how --
BLOOM: Listen. We have been trying for nine months to get her day in court, including next week --
PHILLIPS: OK. Let me ask you a question.
BLOOM: We are fighting yet another motion on yet another technical issue. That is what happens to the women. That is why most of them do not even
bother going to court against a wealthy celebrity.
PHILLIPS: But, I want to ask a question specifically about the Constand woman who took a settlement.
AZARI: Uh-huh
BLOOM: Yes.
PHILLIPS: She accepted money.
BLOOM: Yes.
PHILLIPS: She signed a deal --
BLOOM: Why should not she?
PHILLIPS: I have no issue with her doing it. But my question is, how can you then turn around and prosecute the man who gave a deposition --
BLOOM: Because it is not a her decision.
AZARI: Yes.
BLOOM: And, because the prosecution is on behalf of the people. A crime against one woman is a crime against all women.
PHILLIPS: Who would ever settle a lawsuit --
BLOOM: That is not the problem.
PHILLIPS: -- if what I say in a deposition can then the next guy, who gets elected come in and say, oh, well, I just found this out --
BLOOM: Listen, he was well represented at deposition. I have read the deposition.
PINSKY: But, Lisa --
PHILLIPS: And we have --
PINSKY: His point is well taken, right?
PHILLIPS: A deal was struck that he would testify in the deposition.
PINSKY: And, it would be sealed.
[21:40:00] AZARI: And, keep her deal and it is already sealed and his D.A. is going, "I kind of like what you said in that deposition. I think I
am going to use it and file charges."
BLOOM: Well, first of all, his attorney did object vociferously in that deposition to just about every question. So, I read all of the public
coercion. He objected constantly, and the plaintiff`s attorney had to go in and get a judge to order him to answer certain questions. I mean this
was a highly contested deposition. He did not just roll over.
PINSKY: And, Jim -- go ahead, Joe.
PHILLIPS: I do not want to switch gears too much, but I wanted to say something that I had said in the back was that really, to me, the most
interesting character in all of this is Camille.
PINSKY: Camille. Yes.
PHILLIPS: Who is standing there through all of this.
PINSKY: So, how do you interpret that? What do you think that is? Is that just secondary gain? I do not have to give up any financial --
CLEMENTE: Was not she 19 when they got together?
BLOOM: She is something years together.
CLEMENTE: How do you know that she was not a victim? How do you know she is not continuing to be a victim?
PINSKY: Well, she is in a way if he cheated on her.
CLEMENTE: Yes. Well, that is true. But if he is as controlling as other people said -- I know you have not seen that, but other people that I have
talked to that worked for him that were actors on his shows have said that they felt he was a domineering, controlling person.
PINSKY: And, you said he is a hoarder, too.
CLEMENTE: Well, yes. He is also a hoarder.
PINSKY: I did not see that. What is that?
CLEMENTE: It is a para -- It is another -- it is a mental disorder.
PINSKY: You were about to say Paraphilia.
CLEMENTE: I was going to say, a paraphilia.
PINSKY: So, a part of his personality is hoarding what?
CLEMENTE: It would mean that he is an extreme -- he goes to an extreme whether it is hoarding or sexually active with people, who are not
consenting. That is a paraphilia. I mean --
PHILLIPS: I mean I have never heard about this hoarding.
CLEMETE: Well --
PHILLIPS: Where is the evidence of --
PINSKY: He means hoarding subjects. You mean actually hoarding at his house?
CLEMENTE: Yes.
PHILLIPS: I mean going to his dressing room. It was neat and clean.
CLEMENTE: It is home, and he has gotten other homes to fill up with junk because his home was too filled with junk.
PINSKY: Is that true?
CLEMENTE: It is true as far as I know, because the real estate agent, who got the houses for him told me this, but it is just -- he got some extreme
issues with control --
PINSKY: That is interesting.
CLEMENTE: -- and with extreme behavior.
BLOOM: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: That is interesting, because hoarding is a psychiatric symptom. Let us not mince words. That is an intense symptom.
PHILLIPS: Well, you know, is the real estate agent really qualified to talk about this, and who just collects?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Can we go back to Camille?
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Well, I think that there are women who make a deal. They know that they are married to a famous, powerful man.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: And, it is just sex. As long as he does not bring disease or babies home and continues to bring the check home --
AZARI: Or financially support them.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
BLOOM: You know, whenever we have cases of powerful men doing bad things, we always want to attack the wife.
PHILLIPS: I do not want to attack her.
BLOOM: I am against that.
PHILLIPS: I am not attacking her.
PINSKY: We are trying to understand her.
BLOOM: You do not see me out there attacking Camille.
PINSKY: We are trying to understand.
BLOOM: But a lot of people do go after her very, very strongly.
PHILLIPS: Well, I am not one of them.
BLOOM: I do not know what her situation is. I do not know what she knows. I do not know if she is a victim. I do not know any of that.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: So, I would like to keep the focus on the wrongdoing man instead of always blaming mommy, you know, for all the problems in our culture.
PHILLIPS: Let me put it this way. If I knew he was cheating, she knew.
BLOOM: OK. Well, you know, I thought you are going to say, "If you knew he was cheating, you would kick him out" --
PHILLIPS: No. No. No.
BLOOM: -- which is what most people say in these cheating scandal, but real life people generally kick the --
AZARI: Everyone is looking at her and the fact that she is silent in the media and we have not heard a peep out of her. But, the reality is who
knows what she is doing behind closed doors?
PINSKY: Right.
AZARI: She might be whipping his butt.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Let me just wrap this up. I agree with Lisa, we do not want to victimize this woman. She lost a son, let us not forget. She has a
husband that is a philanderer, we know that to what extent she signs off on that. That is between the two of them, frankly. That is not our business.
CLEMENTE: Right. Knowing he is cheating is a different thing than knowing he is raping them.
BLOOM: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Oh yes.
PINSKY: That is right. And, so there is a lot for us for stay out of here and I agree with Lisa, creating another victim is not what we want to do
here. And, you know, if she wants to sign up for this and she wants to protect what they share together financially, that is good enough.
And,by the way, you know, them losing a child -- they lost a child together. That bonds people -- it either makes them go other ways,
separate, or bonds them together in ways that may keep them together.
Next up, I have got another teacher accused of preying on an underage student. I want to talk to you about whether or not we have a double
standard when it comes to female versus male teacher, male versus female victims of this. And, this is all happening in one school. Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Kimberly Naquin is accused of having a year- long sexual relationship with a female student. The 26-year-old high school teacher is charged with prohibited sexual conduct between an
educator and student. Naquin is the third teacher from the same high school were accused. In 2014, two English teachers, Shelly Dufresne and
Rachel Respess were accused of having a three-way relationship with a 16- year-old male at the school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF MICHAEL GLASER, LA POLICE: Nothing surprises me anymore, really. They should have known better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Three teachers, same high school, all accused of sex with students, all within 18 months. This in a town of 11,000, which is 1,400
students. I am giggling and laughing because it sounds funny, but I agree with that law enforcement, or whatever that guy was, expect anything.
Cultivate the word, whatever, because people do crazy stuff. Police say that the teacher and the student both admitted to this relationship. Back
with Sara, Lisa, Joseph and Jim. Lisa, you got any -- what is your take on this?
[21:50:00] BLOOM: I tell you this. I think female teachers who have sex with whatever gender should be treated just as harshly as the male
teachers. We always hear this hot for teacher thing. This is so damaging. I represented a lot of sexual abuse survivors, male and female.
And, it is frankly even more damaging for the male victim sometimes because they are very confused, their friends are high-fiving them at the time.
Later in life they realize, I did not consent, there was this powerful relationship. Is there?
PINSKY: Yes. If you look at the outcome data -- you must know this, Jim. At the outcome data on the males is terrible. They end up with criminal
behavior. They end up with drug addiction.
CLEMENTE: No relationships. I mean horrible problems throughout their lives. I mean I have talked to hundreds of them through male survivor, and
many of them were victims of female teachers, some of them were victims of males as well.
PINSKY: In this case, in this community, a local criminal defense attorney talks about that double standard. Let us hear what he got to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A thousand percent female. There is a double standard in life. They are going to be looked at in a
different way. I think men in general and also by race, frankly, are looked at differently than white females.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, a white female victimizer is going to have an easier time of it, is that what he is saying? That is shocking to me.
AZARI: That is what he is saying.
PINSKY: Welcome to Florida, everybody.
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: Yes. Right.
PINSKY: Where is Eiglarsh, when I needed him?
AZARI: You know, what I think of it is that I disagree with Jim and Lisa. I think that a boy -- for him it a badge of honor. He is going around --
PINSKY: No. Sara, factually that is not true. Jim?
CLEMENTE: Absolutely, not true. The boys -- did you see what he said? Wait. He had a long history of depression and alcohol abuse as a result of
what happened. He stuck with her. She stuck with him, but that does not mean he is happy about it.
PINSKY: His case is awful. His situation is awful.
BLOOM: So, what are you saying, we should just let our teachers prey on the students as long as they are pretty white women?
AZARI: No. No. I think it is a case-by-case basis. I think that there is absolutely the fact that a 25-year-old teacher, OK -- you are just
calling her a teacher, she is 25.
BLOOM: She still has the same power over her students that the 15-year-old had.
AZARI: But, you have a 16-year-old. In this case, it is a lesbian relationship. You have a 16-year-old female with a 25-year-old female
teacher and they are having a one-year relationship. They were together multiple times.
PINSKY: OK, Sara. Sara, let me propose a different -- a similar power imbalance -- a similar power of construct to a relationship and see how
this one fits for you. A 25-year-old resident and a 16-year-old high school student. A medical resident and a 16-year-old high school student.
That is cool? The patient comes in, has a pelvic exam and has sex right there in the room where the doctor is doing an exam.
AZARI: That is probably not cool.
PINSKY: But, why? Why is that not cool? They are doing that for a year. They go out. He loves her. It is a huge relationship after that. Hang
on, everybody. We have to keep this going. We will be right back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sara, Lisa, Joseph and Jim. We are discussing three female teachers accused of sex with students all at the same high
school in Louisiana. Sorry, Florida. I just, you know, playing with the audience. I apologize. I love Florida, I really do. It is like Donald
Trump. It is terrific. Jim, you were on a serious topic. Let us get back on track here.
CLEMENTE: And, if you are a parent and you have a 16-year-old child who is in high school and they are struggling with identity issues or they are
acting out sexually, would not you rather have a teacher who nurtures them and mentors them through this process as oppose to taking advantage of
that?
AZARI: But you are assuming she was taking advantage of that.
CLEMENTE: But it is taking advantage.
AZARI: You do not know who the 16-year-old is, you do not know her level of maturity is.
CLEMENTE: But we have the laws to protect the 16-year-olds from their own decisions.
BLOOM: And the teacher has a power over student. And, can I just say anything quickly about this school district? Three incidents in this tiny
little school district? I think there is massive liability there. What kind of culture does this school district have?
PHILLIPS: I believe there was one a couple of years earlier of a gentleman, and to me --
CLEMENTE: Not so much of a gentleman, though.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: A male person.
AZARI: A male.
BLOOM: So, it starts at the top.
PHILLIPS: Right.
BLOOM: That is the point. What kind of culture does this district have?
PHILLIPS: And, I am just going to say that in a district of 1,100 kids and this says something about the school board and it says something about the
school administration.
CLEMENTE: But, it is the environment. It is going to draw offenders. It is going to draw people who want to get access to kids for sex.
PINSKY: But you see what you are doing? You see what you are doing? You are holding people in authority accountable for the people they have
authority.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: You are saying the school board, the local government. Yes, the people in authority have responsibility for the people they manage. And,
where did we learn about that? We learned it in school from our teachers. We learned about it from our parents. We learned about it from doctors and
social workers. That is where we learned all that.
Big people take care of little people. And, it turned out -- I can tell you -- and Jim, you will back me up on this, that people who get victimized
are often the ones who need the boundaries held the most. They are the most vulnerable. Those are the ones the victimizer see as good targets.
Instinctively they know that, because the other kids would freak out and report it.
CLEMENTE: Yes, absolutely. The chances of you being victimized the second time increases 70 percent if you get victimized once, and that is because
you are more vulnerable.
BLOOM: Yes. I got to say about 16-year-old because I have a 16-year-old foster son at home. They are still children. They may look like big
grown-up people -- my kid is almost six feet tall -- this is still a child. He is not done yet.
PINSKY: And, the most important thing for me -- I am sorry to say this -- I know you put your bulletproof vest on --
AZARI: I do not leave home without it.
PINSKY: But it is this issue almost more than any other that the boundaries are safe. They can trust other people. They can trust people
in authority. Their bodies are not going to get violated. They are going to be taken care of by the older, more responsible, and people in power
taking care of them. Thank you, all. Thank you, panel. DVR us. You can watch us any time. We will see you next time.
[22:00:10] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
