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Dr. Drew
Two Virginia Tech Students Accused in Abduction and Stabbing; Babysitter Confines Toddler to Closet for Days; A Sex Assault Case Against Bill Cosby Now Will Go Forward. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 03, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:14] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Tonight, two Virginia tech students accused in the abduction and stabbing death of a teenager, leaving
a campus in turmoil. Plus, the day of reckoning for Bill Cosby. Will he or will not he stand trial on sex assault charges. Let us get started with
--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: With first, a report that has chronicled in this very police report. It chronicles details of
perhaps one of the most disturbing cases of child abuse one could possibly imagine. In this report, I am going to read to you just randomly off the
middle of the page.
The victim, a 3-year-old girl, arms and legs bound with duct tape. Duct tape over her mouth, inside a black trash bag with only the top of her head
exposed. The victim covered in human feces. This is OK, folks? This is all right? This is the world we live in? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Police say this Arizona mom left her child in the care of this 30-year-old man. The so-called
babysitter allegedly kept the toddler confined to a closet for days as he waited for an online sex partner to arrive. He bounded the girl with duct
tape. Put her in a trash bag and locked her back in the closet.
According to police, after the sexual rendezvous, he allegedly took the malnourished and soiled 3-year-old out of the closet and offered her out
for sex as well. His visitor called police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The babysitter so-called and the toddler`s mother had pled not guilty. Joining me, Thema Davis, Clinical Psychologist; AnneElise,
Attorney, host of the podcast "Real Life in the Law"; Kurt Schlichter, Attorney and Cheryl Dorsey, Sergeant LAPD (Ret.), author of "The Creation
of a Manifesto Black & Blue".
All right. First, I get a chance at this one. You want to look at every serious problem in society today and I mean virtually every single one.
Maybe I am overstating this by saying all of them.
But whether it is what fills our jails, what creates psychiatric illness, what creates homelessness, poverty, interpersonal chaos, you find childhood
abuse at the core of all of these things.
And egregious abuse like this, what does it take for someone to be able to do this? And, we live in a world where trauma is transmitted
generationally from one to the next. Kurt, you are a father.
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I am.
PINSKY: What would happen if any of your children at any age were subjected to anything like this?
SCHLICHTER: Well, you know, I am a lawyer and I was an infantry officer; but as a father, you know, it is actually stunning. It takes a lot to stun
me after what I have seen. I think of our police and social worker who have to see it day in and day out. And, we need to be very thankful for
them because they take a lot off our plate, but that reality is out there. And, as a father, it is hard for me to express in words that I can say on
T.V. what I think of this.
PINSKY: Thema, Kurt said something important here, which is this is something we do see. I mean everybody, I am sure law enforcement, too.
Maybe not this. It is ridiculous. This is almost like -- I do not have words to describe something that is this over the top. But it is something
we do see a lot of. It is insane.
THEMA DAVIS, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It is really outrageous. And, it grieves our hearts when we see it. But, often times we then close our
eyes, because it is so painful. And, so, I am thankful in this story that the person who showed up at the house was willing to make the call. And,
so many of us ignore it and turn away. But, we have to be willing to shatter the silence and speak up for these kids.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you have been on in these calls, I am sure.
CHERYL DORSEY, LAPD (RET): Yes, but you know for me -- because I am a mom and I am a grandmother. And, so I cannot believe that there were not signs
that this young lady had made other inappropriate decisions when it comes to mates and the kinds of people that she leaves to care for her daughter.
There had to have been a tell-tale sign. And, for her to be gone for days on end, where was the extended family with regards to questioning about the
well-being of this young girl while mom is away?
PINSKY: You know, can we get -- I guess it is -- is it in the next block? I am going to bring up the stuff where the child was observed in a grocery
store or something and actually, there was a report filed. Do we have that information up here? Do you guys can get to it? Yes. I will go on to
you, AnneElise, while they are collecting that data. Go ahead.
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Everyone has said it already. I am a mother. I am in the throngs of watching ale little person grow up. So, I have a
year and a half child right now. And, I see the story of a 3-year-old and knowing, seeing it in action, they come out good. And, it is us.
(LAUGHING)
[21:05:00] PINSKY: Yes, we do. Yes.
GOETZ: It is us that does this to them, that turns into the statement that you are talking about. And, I am hearing the story and it is breaking my
heart. Because this poor little girl, has she seen any love in her life? Has she seen any love? And, what is in store for her?
She has a grandparent that is talking to national television saying, "Oh, we had no idea." Come on. Someone saw something. She is covered in
bruises. And, you are going to tell me that you had no idea. And, frankly, Dr. Drew, I want to see society step up and do something.
I feel like we had this epidemic of everyone saying, "Oh, that is someone else`s problem. That is their family, not ours." And, how many people saw
her in Walmart? How many people saw her on the street and said nothing, did nothing.
PINSKY: I am going to talk to a guy, who did see her in Walmart and was concerned and did report it and then nothing happened, which is a whole
other part of this, AnneElise, which is that our system is overwhelmed. This is so ridiculously common. Again, maybe -- I almost want to call it a
cartoonish. It is so unimaginable. But, here is a family member, who says they had no idea. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Whenever she sent us pictures, the background was perfect. And, we have looked through them over and over, and there is
nothing that could have indicated this from the times we have seen her.
Everyone said that it is the family`s fault. How did the family not know, but I mean she was so good at hiding it that there was no way of knowing
it. She is always going to be family and even though she did this horrible thing, like she is family --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What about those kinds of attitude?
GOETZ: But, here is the thing --
PINSKY: That bothers me right there.
DORSEY: It sounds like she is mitigating the bad behavior --
PINSKY: She is smiling while she is talking about it.
DORSEY: -- by saying that she is family no matter what she did, she is family. And, how engaged was this family when they did have an opportunity
to be within close proximity to this child that they did not notice something was amiss?
SCHLICHTER: You know, family is not an excuse. It is an obligation. You have to step forward for your family. And, we have to step forward for
each other. When you see a child who is clearly being abused, you need to call it in.
Now, that is not the same as somebody calling Child Protective Services because a kid is walking 40 yards home from a playground alone. That is
normal. A kid with bruises, a kid who smells like urine, a kid who is crying and obviously terrified. Each and every one of us has an individual
obligation to act.
PINSKY: Not only that. I would not be sitting, smiling at a camera. I would be tearing my hair out trying to understand how it could have been
that I could have allowed this to happen in front of me. And, I would be hoping the law took whoever this woman was in relation to me, did what they
have to do with her, because she has ruined a life. She has taken a soul.
Next, the witness who saw the mother and the child. I am going to talk to him. He knew something was wrong. He joins us. He did not get any
satisfaction either, though, because our system does not always work. And, later, a sex assault case against Bill Cosby now will go forward. He lost
a challenge in court. We will talk about it. We have Gloria Allred here to discuss after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): This Mesa apartment, home to a case of child abuse so disturbing, neighbors do not want to believe it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE NEIGHBOR: It makes me sick. The whole thing -- I mean it is not a child, it is a baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Neighbors watched yesterday as Francisco Rios-Covarrubias was taken into custody. Police led to this
apartment Monday by a tipster. He had met Covarrubias online, came looking for a sexual rendezvous. And, that is when he saw a little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JOHN MEZA, MESA POLICE DEPARTMENT: They noticed a small child bound and gagged with duct tape around her hands and mouth. The suspect asked
the responding party if he wanted to have sex with the child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Police say she was covered in her own feces. And at the doctor`s office, obvious signs that the 3-year-
old had been sexually abused.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Mesa Police Chief said this story, quote, "Shocks the soul". Toddler has been hospitalized. She got bruises, scratches, bilateral
rashes on the vagina and buttocks, consistent with either burn or herpes, something not good. Back with Thema, AnneElise, Kurt, and Cheryl.
And, Cheryl, you had a question for me. I think -- those physical injuries that child had remind me of what you kind of whispered to me during the
break. Go ahead and have at it.
DORSEY: My question was how long-lasting, if at all, will this child remember these encounters?
PINSKY: All right. This is the important part of the story. And, Thema, you back me up on this. Which is this little organ here, this brain is
more plastic, more vulnerable the younger the child. So, a general principle, the younger, the more profound this organ is affected.
Memories may or may not persist, but the trajectory of development of this organ will be forever changed in the direction that is not good for the
child. She will be at risk for physical preoccupations or emotional distress or problems in relationships. She may have no explicit memory of
what happened. But, she will be dissociated from her emotional life and her body potentially forever.
GOETZ: She is a 3-year-old. You know, I mean you are saying this. And, does not it break your heart when you say it?
PINSKY: Yes. Listen. Thema and I can see these people as adults later doing drugs, acting out, trying to regulate their emotions. They are
completely disassociated.
DAVIS: There are long-term effects. There is a powerful book called "The Body Remembers". And, just as you say it, even when you cannot articulate
the words, it is stored in your physical body. And, it shows up in your inability to trust people, and your inability to feel safe.
PINSKY: Kurt.
SCHLICHTER: How can the one person in the world that you could look to for safety --
PINSKY: I am not going there. I am not going to let you go there.
SCHLICHTER: How could she?
PINSKY: Because that is what is happening everywhere everyday.
SCHLICHTER: How could that not destroy her?
GOETZ: There are two people. I do not hear anyone talking about the dad.
PINSKY: BS! There is an extended family.
GOETZ: Where is the dad?
PINSKY: BS! There is protected services.
SCHLICHTER: What dad?
GOETZ: Well, no. There used to be a dad.
SCHLICHTER: Some sperm donor somewhere.
[21:15:00] GOETZ: No. He was married to her. There was a dad. A real dad.
SCHLICHTER: Look. I do not know if this is mental illness for the parents, but it is absolute moral illiteracy. Right now, it is the guy who
showed up for a grinder encounter leading the way in morality in this circus.
PINSKY: Ironic. You are absolutely right. But he did --
SCHLICHTER: But he did the right thing.
PINSKY: He managed to turn out --
SCHLICHTER: God bless him for having the courage and the moral insight to do what was right.
PINSKY: Police say the mom shaved that girl`s head. That mom there shaved her head in various places. It has been reported that she was trying to
pass her off as a cancer patient for quote, "Pandering". Yeah. Let me go on to introduce this gentleman, who saw exactly what I am describing out in
the world.
I have on the phone, Jason Tilley. He is a security guard, who says he witnessed the toddler, he witnessed the mother shoplifting. And, Jason,
you noticed the child`s condition immediately?
JASON TILLEY, SECURITY GUARD WHO DETAINED MAYRA SOLIS: Yes, sir. Yes, we did.
PINSKY: And, what did you do?
TILLEY: Well, due to protocol we got to call PD based on the fact that she was with the male suspect as well. And, the male suspect went outside to
get in the car and wait for her to come out with stolen merchandise. So, we have PD on the scene within that time.
PINSKY: So, you had them arrested for shoplifting, right?
TILLEY: We have her arrested for shoplifting, because technically he did not take anything.
PINSKY: OK. But, what happened with the child? That is what you made note of? What did you see there and what did they do with the child?
TILLEY: The PD, really did not do much of ith the child. There was a strong odor coming from the child, which was urine, smelled like urine.
The child`s head was shaved. All of us in the office, the three -- myself and two other A.P.s along with Mesa PD thought it was a boy. And, then the
mother like, "No, she is a girl."
And, we are like, "Oh." And, she go, "Her head had been shaved because of lice." And, then the mother was saying how she ended up with stealing food
and stuff for her because they had no food. She had no job. She had no money. So, me, the AP and LAP and one of the officers went out there and
bought the food and drinks and stuff for them for the child, itself.
PINSKY: Listen, I appreciate you doing that. It is very kind of you to have done that. So, what was your take? What did your gut tell you when
you met these people?
TILLEY: Something was off, because the mother seemed kind of slow when she was talking to us. Either that or she was on drugs. We were not for sure.
The child itself just looked OK, like it was interacting with us, smiling, kind of playing around. But, like just -- I have been around kids with
dirty diapers, my niece and nephews, I have children, that was not just a dirty diaper. You know what I mean?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. And, did you think or did anybody try to call Child Protective Services?
TILLEY: Mesa P.D. did make the -- they were saying they were going to, because they should becayse of her shoplifting with the child, but they
never acted on it.
PINSKY: All right, Jason. Thank you. I am sorry you got wrapped up on this, but thank you for at least trying to be, again, somebody who is
trying to make a difference. The irony of this that the guy that found the suspect. The guy who duct taped the kid, the guy who was also offered
meth, he found the guy that the perpetrator of all those dressed in a blond wig and a pink dress, when they arrived. They did smoke methamphetamine.
I am wrong. He took his friend up on that. So, your moral compass, your moral ratter in this whole story --
SCHLICHTER: How far is really low right now? But, you know, what we do need to say is thank you to Jason Tilley.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHLICHTER: Because Jason Tilley did what an American citizen should do. He stood up and he did the right the right thing. And, it could not have
been fun and it could not have been easy but he did it. God bless him. We need more people like Jason.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, calling Child Protective Services as an officer can be very frustrating experience?
DORSEY: Well, listen, I am troubled by the fact that the police engaged the mother. What did they do with that child once mom was arrested?
Because they had an affirmative responsibility to put that child in protective custody --
PINSKY: Good thing.
DORSEY: -- either with a family member or with an agency. And, so, if they do that --
PINSKY: Because the child was homeless and unable to be fed, right?
DORSEY: Right. So, how did they arrest the mom and not take a real good look as a trained professional, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: And, discern that there was something amiss with the child. I do not get it.
GOETZ: You can be a homeless mother. So, San Diego rescue mission is an organization that I feel strongly about. They have an emergency shelter
for women and children. And, there are families that are homeless. There are women that are homeless with their kids and there are resources for
them. And, you can -- They are leaving domestics violence situations and they need to get out.
So, there are plenty of mothers that have homeless kids and you do not want to call CPS, and they are trying. They are working. What bothers me so
much about this case is it appears this woman had a backstop. She had family that said, "She was living with us. She left. We could not get her
back." Find resources. Use your family. She had all of these avenues available to her and she use this guy."
PINSKY: She used this guy, but it must have been the guy she was using drugs with. This sounds like more and more and more sounds like a meth
story, does not it?
DAVIS: Yes. I think the substance abuse is a real issue and the mental illness.
PINSKY: Yes.
DAVIS: She is shaving her kid`s head and she is trying to pass the child off. I read in one story, she is trying to pass the child off for having
cancer.
PINSKY: Yes.
DAVIS: And, when this guy in the store interacted with her, he thought the mother was delayed.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Yes. Listen. Thema is not giving you an excuse for this mother`s behavior. We would like to see whatever the legal system
needs to do to her done to her. This child is going to be better off in any other than with that mother. It is too late for mom. It is too late
for mom. It is too late.
She should have used her family as AnneElise said. She should have gone to drug treatment. And, by the way, the family, you had no idea that she was
strung out, she was homeless on the street, unable to feed herself, you have no idea?
Next up, two Virginia tech students are charged in the killing of a young teen girl. It is a challenging mystery this story. The motive the police
say was a secret of not this kid that was about to be exposed, but it is still a very challenging story. That is another story of abduction, trauma
and abuse. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL, FATHER OF NICOLE LOVELL: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet and I want to know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Two Virginia tech engineering students under arrest charged in connection with the death of 13-year-old
Nicole Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David E. Eisenhauer on one fount count of abduction and one fount count of first-degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The cause of death is stabbing. Natalie Keepers, an accessory before the fact to the first-degree murder of Nicole
Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: We have determined that Eisenhauer and Nicole were acquainted prior to her disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): The 13-year-old parents say she pushed a dresser in front of her door then climbed out a window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICE: Eisenhower used this relationship to his advantage to abduct and then kill her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And new tonight, a law enforcement official tells CNN, David was involved in what they call an inappropriate relationship with Nicole who
had threatened to expose the affair. Back with Thema, AnneElise and Kurt. And, joining us, Cheryl Hunter, Author and Resilience Expert.
Here is what police were saying about David. He had this inappropriate relationship with Nicole. Nicole planned to expose it. He stabbed her to
death. He killed her the same day she went missing.
Now, Cheryl in just a minute, you have been through some traumatic experiences not far off from this. Thank God, it did not end up like this.
You are going to tell us your story in a few minutes. But, now, you speak around the country about having been abducted, raped, left for dead. What
is your reaction to the story?
CHERYL HUNTER, AUTHOR AND RESILIENCE EXPERT: Well, it is understandable that she went with them from her perspective. If you look at her life and
what she had endured.
PINSKY: Which was she had a liver transplant as a young age for a tumor. She had Non-Hodgkin`s Lymphoma. She had tracheostomy. She had
chemotherapy. And, she had scars and she felt bad about herself.
HUNTER: She had scars, she felt different. And, here is somebody who is telling her she is special. She is beautiful. He can make her dreams come
true in essence. And, so, why would not she ego with him in one regard? That is the problem here.
PINSKY: Is that he might have been persuasive in taking advantage of a vulnerable subject. Now, you judge for yourself here, buddy. I want to
look at this tape with you. It is last year. It is our affiliate, WMAR.
They spoke to this kid, David Eisenhauer, because the time, a year ago he was a star on the high school track team. Let us look at him and see if we
think even our gut tells us this is the kind of guy that could perpetrate something like this. I am getting nauseous just thinking about it, but
here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID EISENHAUER, CONVICTED OF ABDUCTION AND FIRST-DEGREE MURDER: I just have this internal thing saying I want to be the best. I make my personal
goals achievable like -- or just out of reach of achievable. That way, I am always constantly striving to better myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP0
PINSKY: Thema, your reaction?
DAVIS: It is that ego and when you are a cyber predator, you are constantly looking for ways to increase your sense of power and what better
way than to go after a vulnerable child.
PINSKY: Power and control. Power and control. He spoke -- this kid, David, he spoke to investigators saying, quote, "I believe the truth can
set me free." AnneElise, does that informed you in any way? I mean when I first heard this, it did not make sense to me, unless that kid in that
picture is a psychopath or a sociopath. Maybe he is going to tell us something, but what could he possibly say?
GOETZ: Well, I mean, obviously, with our system you are innocent until proven guilty. This has been a very quick investigation, very quick
charges. And, the D.A. has been tight-lip on how much information are getting to the public.
PINSKY: What are you saying there that, that means he knows a lot?
GOETZ: Well, I am saying that he does not want to jeopardize -- he or she, I do not know if it is a he or a she. I am saying that they do not want to
jeopardize what they are building and they may still be building is what I kind of parse out of that.
But, the fact is we do need to wait for the evidence to come in. We do not have anything that public right now -- The court of public opinion to tie
him and say this is a cold-blooded murderer. We need more information.
SCHLICHTER: You know, we need to be careful, Dr. Drew, because just a few minutes ago we were talking about some other people. We are practically
tying the noose for them.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHLICHTER: Here we have an articulate, clean cut upper middle class white kid. Are we giving this kid a benefit of the doubt we did not give other
people?
GOETZ: Well, there was a different court report on that.
SCHLICHTER: Yes. There are different facts.
GOETZ: And, they explain the evidence very differently.
SCHLICHTER: And, the facts will come out. But, let us be very careful here. I want there to be one standard of justice. No affluenza for this
kid. If he is guilty, he needs to hang.
PINSKY: Agree.
GOETZ: Right.
SCHLICHTER: If he is not guilty, he needs a protection of the law.
DAVIS: And, we at least know that there is evidence. The girl had pictures of him in her phone showing people saying, "This is my 18-year-old
boyfriend".
PINSKY: Oh boy.
DAVIS: So, we know that he was at least doing that.
SCHLICHTER: I take it all back. All back.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: His accomplice, her name is Natalie was charged with accessory before the fact, accessory after the fact, concealing a dead body.
AnneElise, accessory -- What is the matter, Kurt?
SCHLICHTER: What is the thought process where some kid at a college and Virginia tech is not a bad college.
PINSKY: I cannot figure it out.
SCHLICHTER: "Gee, maybe I should help this dude kill this little 13-year- old and hide the body somewhere." How do you get from A to Z with that? I would like to see you diagram it out.
(LAUGHING)
[21:30:00] PINSKY: There is one way from a mental health standpoint -- Again, trying to understand that. Trying to fill in the gaps without the
facts.
SCHLICHTER: Right.
PINSKY: If that kid is a psychopath or a sociopath, those kinds will some time team up with young ladies, which is called a borderline personality
disorder. And, those two together can make a lot of trouble.
SCHLICHTER: Great, we have teen psycho.
DAVIS: And, what shifted him was supposedly that the girl was going to tell. So, initially, it is him being a predator sexually and drawing her
in. And, then he is going to get caught.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what are you thinking?
HUNTER: Well -- it is just -- there is something so persuasive about him. That he is not only ostensibly lured the girl out of her house, leave home,
and sneak out in the middle of the night, but also gets this other woman on his side. I just cannot imagine what is going on over there with him that
he is able to lure people in like that.
SCHLICHTER: I will tell you how. Social media, and I would like a special message to my daughter. No. Does not happen anymore. It is gone.
PINSKY: And, they did. There was evidence that this young girl and Eisenhauer communicated with a social media app. She asked members of a
team, so called "Flirted" group, if she was cute. She had over 300 responses, many of which were bullying and harsh. On Instagram, she is I
guess was one of her statements or statuses was, quote, "It is none of your business whom I date".
She was bullied at school. She did not like going to school. Girls make fun of her for being overweight. She had transplant scars. She had
tracheostomy scar. She had extended -- this is what pretty interesting for you, Thema.
She had extended comatose states during, I think right during chemo and during when she had her liver transplant. God knows what that did to the
poor girl`s brain that may have done to her brain. The bullying got so bad, she left school. She was bullied on social media as well as I said.
So, I guess, one thing question --
HUNTER: Finally, she sees this chance for vindication. Finally, all the bullies can be put in their place because some big 18-year-old loves her,
thinks she is beautiful. It is enough.
DAVIS: And, this is why it is so important for parents who have children, who have special needs or who have had medical issues to talk about these
issues, because often we do not think they will get caught up in dating --
PINSKY: They listen. They often listen.
DAVIS: -- because people are going to ignore them, but the predators are there.
GOETZ: Well, not just for children that have been dealt a certain hand, but parents in general.
DAVIS: Yes.
GOETZ: Period. I heard an interview and by no means am I blaming the parents in situation that my heart is breaking for them. But, I heard them
saying she was using a social media app kicker, something along those lines, something I have never heard of. And, they said, we did not even
know it existed. Part of being the parent and being the monitoring system is look at the phone. Look at the history.
PINSKY: Yes. And, listen --
GOETZ: And, you need to be involved and engaged in that. Because it is not the fault of social media sites, it is --
PINSKY: It is all of us.
GOETZ: You have to be engaged.
PINSKY: It is all of us. It is the adults. It is big people taking care of little people. It is all of us. I will refer you, if you have
questions as parents, we have a frequent contributor in this show, her name is Lisa Strowman. She is a psychologist and attorney. She has runs a
website called, "Technology Wellness Center".
She dedicates her life every day to keeping up with all this. It requires an absolute dedication to stay -- not just ahead of it, to stay with it.
So, you can be the beneficiary of what she studies at TechnoloyWellnessCenter.com. We will keep this going.
Later, we will talk about Bill Cosby. Lost a bid in court today to have sexual assault charges dismissed. We are back after this.
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[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMMY WEEKS, NICOLE LOVELL`S MOTHER: Nicole had a passion for pandas, music, dancing, trying to be an American Idol someday.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): Police are saying that they believe this 18-year-old suspect and this 13-year-old girl met somehow via
the internet. As a result of that, the 18-year-old used it to his advantage, lured her, you could say, out of the home.
Because it appears on Wednesday that she disappeared, she left at midnight. Pushed the dresser up against the door, and goes out the window and then
the next time she is found, she is dead.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): What is this 18-year-old doing anywhere near a 13-year-old? You are in college.
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PINSKY: That is precisely the mystery to all of us. Maybe the police know something that they are being tight-lipped about, but there seems to be
some missing pieces. Again, we are talking about the case of a young teen girl found dead, stabbed to death. Two Virginia tech students have been
charged in connection with her abduction and death, murder, stabbing.
Back with me, Thema, AnneElise, Kurt, and Cheryl. And, Cheryl, you know, you were saying there are not really any specific signs in this -- I made
you stop telling us the story during the break in this young man, this David Eisenhauer. We saw him talking about his career as a young track
star in high school. He seemed like another high school kid.
HUNTER: He seems like a normal guy. No telltale signs that, "Oh, this guy is going to be a psychopath. This guy is going to be a murderer". And,
similarly, the men who took me when I was in France, he was charismatic, the ring leader. He was walking by shops and waving, and people were
saying hello. And, I thought, in the absence of any other, you know, verification of who he was I thought, "Oh, people like him. He seems cool.
They know him".
PINSKY: How old were you?
HUNTER: It was 18.
PINSKY: And, what happened?
HUNTER: They -- it was -- he had a camera around his neck, and approached me and said, "Are you a model? I can make you one." And, I kind of felt,
"He was a little creepy in a way like this is not a good idea. I know better", but I went. I am from a small town. I thought it would get me
into living in the big city.
[21:40:00] And, you can kind of fill in the details with your mind, but they held me in an abandoned construction site, beat me mercilessly and
everything you can imagine. And, eventually dumped me and left me for dead. And, then one of them chased me, and I ran for my life.
PINSKY: Did you -- was this happened over hours or days?
HUNTER: Happened over days.
PINSKY: It just sounds un-survivable. How did you survive?
HUNTER: Well, at the time, I was 18. And, I thought the way to survive it was to pretend that it did not happen. I did not know any better. I had
never encountered anything difficult. So, I pretended it did not happen.
PINSKY: When it was happening, how did you survive it?
HUNTER: I looked away for most of the time. I saw a dancing spark of light on the wall and thought, whatever is making that is free. And, if I
look at it hard enough I can merge into it and become that, because this is the mind of a teenager who had been drugged, you know? And, so, I just
stared at it with all my mind and thought I could merge into that and become that.
PINSKY: Be out of body. Be out of the body.
HUNTER: Be out of the body. Really. I just did that.
DAVIS: Do you remember it all?
HUNTER: I remember parts of it. I remember lying in my own urine, you know, on a cement floor. I remember this. I remember peeing --
PINSKY: It is a very typical description. I mean you have a creative twist in terms of what you imagined, but it is people see themselves, they
are out of body. They shut down and go to another place. It is called disassociation is how people survive the unsurvivable. And, it is your
body preparing for the worst.
GOETZ: I cannot believe you are sitting here telling that story. I mean God bless you. I cannot believe you are standing and functioning and
telling it. I am amazed by you.
PINSKY: AnneElise, I got to stop you.
GOETZ: I am amazed.
PINSKY: I got to stop you. What Cheryl went through is unspeakable, horrible. What the 3-year-old went through, we were talking about at the
beginning of the story, will not even be able to articulate. There will be a silent scream in her head all the time for the rest of her life.
HUNTER: And, I have no idea what that would be like. I know my own experience and I know all of the people that I have worked with. But, one
thing I know is that it is possible to get to the other side.
DAVIS: And, that is why it is so important that you are telling your story., because often we only see the kid in the closet in the bag and we
never hear anything beyond that.
HUNTER: Right.
DAVIS: But to know that you are sitting here --
PINSKY: See, Kurt wants to go and kill all these guys.
SCHLICHTER: And, you are absolutely right. And, it is not vengeance. It is justice. Justice has to be done. We all have to take a personal
interest in protecting each other. And, when somebody gets out of line in such a grievous way, society cries out for justice.
PINSKY: Kurt, it is weird. I agree with you. I identify with the feeling. I do not think, it would help Cheryl.
SCHLICHTER: No. It is not -- I am sorry. It is not going to help Cheryl.
HUNTER: Well, you know, something like this happens, it is so unconsciousable that we cannot even wrap our heads around it. A 3-year-
old? No. We just cry out collectively for blood. But, the problem is a guilty verdict and all of that never brings peace.
SCHLICHTER: But --
HUNTER: You cannot un-ring a bell. Now, that this is here, then what? Yes, pursue justice without question. Those guys need to be off the
streets. And, then there is the road to recovery, whatever that looks like.
SCHLICHTER: Look, there is a reason that a criminal case is brought. You know, the United States versus or the people of California versus, because
this was not just a crime against Cheryl or this small child. This was a crime against all of us. And, all of us need to see that justice is done.
That is why we have a judicial system. And, it is important too because if we did not, then people would go out and make their own justice. And, you
would see people like those bastards hanging off a light post.
DAVIS: That is why I think the collective outrage is important, because for this girl in the closet, all of the adults that she knows turned their
backs.
PINSKY: Yes.
DAVIS: So, for her to recognize that society is outraged on her behalf is important.
PINSKY: Yes. OK. So, I am really glad you said that, because as when Kurt was talking, I was struggling. I know the kind of justice that you
are wanting. And, I am feeling, it does not necessarily solve anything in and of itself, but I am going to tell you, Thema brought it together for
me, collective outrage.
SCHLICHTER: Right.
PINSKY: We need to gather together on these issues. We have to stand together in our outrage. We have to support the Cheryls and the little
girls that come out of this. God only knows what she is going to suffer from later in life.
Support her, but do not tolerate these behaviors. It is not whatever you want to do. It is not, "Hey, whatever you are into, man." We have left
that behind. We have gone through 20 years, where people actually believed that. Now, we are suffering the consequences, collective outrage.
Speaking of outrage, a day of reckoning for Bill Cosby. Sex assault case against him not going away tonight. Back after this.
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[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Cosby`s team is asserting in the most vigorous way that the case needs to be dismissed. Why? Their assertion is
that there was a non-prosecution agreement. So, in order to get at the heart of that, you would think there might be a written instrument, a
written document, which would suggest that the commonwealth cannot prosecute him. Therein lies the rub. There is no such agreement.
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ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: If you make an agreement with someone and say, I will not prosecute you, if you sit down and you give testimony under
oath about an issue --
JACKSON: Then it should be in writing.
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PINSKY: The sexual assault case against Bill Cosby, it is moving forward. The Judge rejected a claim that Cosby made a verbal deal with a prosecutor
back in 2005. In that deal, there was never -- I am going to show you my legalese here. It was never reduced to writing. It was always oral.
There was no written documentation.
But, even that, prosecutor who is the D.A. at the time stated that he would not allow Cosby to ever be charged and yet the judge threw it all out.
Back with Thema, AnneElise and Kurt. And, joining us, Civil Rights -- sorry, Victims Rights Attorney and Lisa Bloom`s relative -- That is how you
will be known in our show, who represents many or some of Bill Cosby`s accusers. So, Gloria, they are planning an appeal, is that right?
[21:50:20] GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM RIGHTS LAWYER: That is what I have read, that Mr. Cosby is intending to appeal the denial of his habeas corpus
motion. In other words, the denial of his motion to dismiss the criminal case.
PINSKY: Is this just an attempt to stone wall, and just create mountains of work to sort of just delay this thing interminably?
ALLRED: Well, apparently, Dr. Drew, he does not want the criminal case to go forward. He does not want to face a jury and have a jury decide his
guilt or innocence. And, this move is just the latest in a long string of legal maneuvers by Bill Cosby. And, so far, he has failed.
PINSKY: Now, the judge that threw this thing out cited credibility determinations. That was the quote. Kurt, does that mean something?
SCHLICHTER: That means something huge.
PINSKY: What does it mean?
SCHLICHTER: It is very clear if this agreement was real. It seems to me that even under Pennsylvania law and I am not a Pennsylvania lawyer, but I
am somewhat familiar with facts that it should not have been enforced. He should not in fact have been prosecuted.
The judge has the opportunity to listen to the testimony of the former D.A. and judge credibility. Is it truthful or not? The judge did not rule on
the legality of the actual agreement. He ruled, "I do not believe there was one." And, I cannot imagine anybody going into one of these agreements
without reducing it to writing. If I were Bill Cosby, you know, I would have it tattooed on chest.
PINSKY: And, that I guess what the judge is saying, that it seems just ridiculous that they would not have been reduced to writing.
ALLRED: Well, according to the district attorney, Dr. Drew, any immunity from prosecution agreement would not only have to be reduced to writing.
It would have to be reduced to a court order. In other words, a judge would have had to order it. And, that never happened.
So, in fact, if they were arguing it was some kind of agreement, if it was so important to Bill Cosby, one has to ask, why did his attorneys not
ensure that it was reduced to writing? Now, one of his attorneys is deceased. The one who allegedly entered into this so-call agreement at the
time.
So, obviously, he is deceased and cannot testify. But, you know, most defense attorneys would make sure because they would be concerned about
malpractice as well as about not having their client prosecuted. They would want to protect their client by having it in writing.
SCHLICHTER: Well, the technical term is super malpractice, because this is literally the most insane thing I have ever heard. I would not even
consider allowing such unspoken agreement.
PINSKY: Speaking of wild allegations. I want to play for you a tape. You, guys -- that Eddie Griffin tape, I want that to be played. This is
outside of the legal realm but it is another set of -- I do not know what to call this, a rumor and swirling around the Cosby case. Listen to what
Eddie Griffin said on VLADTV.
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EDDIE GRIFFIN, ACTOR/COMEDIAN: Did he rape these (EXPLETIVE WORD)? All of them said the same thing. "We went to the room." Why would you go to the
room of a known married man? It is systematic effort to destroy every black male entertainer`s image. They want us all to have asterisks by our
name. Dr. Cosby raped 37 (EXPLETIVE WORD) and still counting. Nobody leaves this business clean. Michael Jackson (EXPLETIVE WORD) little white
children. Do you understand?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Try to tie that --
GRIFFIN: You are not going to die clean.
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PINSKY: AnneElise, you reacted.
GOETZ: Well, I reacted that he is blaming the victims because, what? He is married. He is the one that is married. So, you are saying that
because he is married, they go off to the room with him, that he did not rape them? Come on. That does not make sense.
ALLRED: And, there is another problem with it, Dr. Drew, as well, in trying to play the race card on this particular issue, because a number of
my clients who are accusers of Bill Cosby are, in fact, African-American women.
GOETZ: Yes.
ALLRED: And, in fact for many of them, they were very reluctant to come forward, because they did not want to hurt this major star, this major
father-figure, well respected successful African-American man. But, they did so because they accuse him of very, very serious acts. And, they
decided that he should not have any special license to get away with it.
PINSKY: I am going to take the race issue out of Eddie`s little diatribe there and say, though, that people do have a lot of schadenfreude, a lot of
desire to take down people that moralize. So, the fact that he was sort of from on high giving advice to people, they love to take him down. Not
because he is black, just because he was telling people how to live their life and indeed he had secrets, so it seems. Back after this.
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[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We have been discussing the various cases that Bill Cosby is facing and particularly his loss to have a bid. He lost today to have his
sexual assault charges dismissed. And, Thema, you wanted to comment about something.
DAVIS: Yes. Some people want to dismiss the Cosby case by saying, it is a case of racism. Well, I celebrate people who speak out against racism that
they cannot just protect and rally around black men. When will they rally around black women and black women`s bodies and say that black women`s
bodies matter?
PINSKY: But, damn! How did he find out about that meeting of all the white men that we all get together? Kurt, you know that.
SCHLICHTER: I got the memo. Who is the person who wanted to take Bill Cosby down? I mean, a very liberal Obama supporter? Not my kind of guy,
but a guy who has had a very important moral view.
PINSKY: And, remember, who was the comedian that brought it up in the first place?
DAVIS: Hannibal Buress.
PINSKY: Buress.
SCHLICHTER: Yes.
PINSKY: He is the one that broke the whole thing. Thank you panel. Thank you those of you watching. DVR the show then you can watch us anytime. We
will see you next time.
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