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Dr. Drew
A Husband Who Spied On His Wife Is On Trial For Her Murder; A Virginia Tech Student Charged In The Murder Of A 13-Year-Old Girl Says She Was Excited To Be Part Of Something Secretive And Special; A Woman Who Lived Her Own Domestic Abuse Nightmare; A 31-Year-Old Texas Mother Who Pleaded Guilty To Producing And Distributing Pornography Featuring Her Own Young Daughters
Aired February 04, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[21:00:15] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Tonight, a husband who spied on his wife is on trial for her murder. And, now his
secretly recorded tapes are being used against him in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You are telling me you should have killed me, put your hands around my throat and all this other (EXPLETIVE
WORDS) calling me --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Plus a Virginia tech student charged in the murder of a 13-year-old girl says she was excited to
be part of something secretive and special. Dr. Drew starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: And, new and graphic details revealed today in court about that murder of a 13-year-old girl.
You heard Nancy talking about it. This was allegedly by two Virginia tech freshmen. Here is more on that case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: We have located the remains of 13- year-old Nicole Madison Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP0
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Police say she went missing from her home and was stabbed to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Two Virginia Tech Engineering Students under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: David E. Eisenhauer on one felony count of abduction and one felony count of first-degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: His accomplice and her name is Natalie was charged with accessory before the fact, accessory after the fact, concealing a dead
body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The 13-year-old`s parents say she pushed a dresser in front of her bedroom door then climbed out a window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: David was involved in what they call an inappropriate relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Eisenhauer used this relationship to his advantage to abduct and then kill her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, according to prosecutors, Natalie Keepers, whom you see there, admitted to planning the killing with David Eisenhauer, telling
investigators as you heard in the open, quote, "I was excited to be part of something secretive and special."
Joining me, Sara Azari, Criminal Defense Attorney; Jena Kravitz, Clinical Neuropsychologist; Judge Greg Mathis, host of "Judge Mathis"; Jim
Clemente, former FBI Profiler and I still have CNN`s Martin Savidge on hand here. There is Marty. Marty, we all saw you talking to Nancy. What is
the latest?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, this was astonishing with the developments today that came out of that hearing. It was a bond
hearing that was for Natalie Keepers. Initially, the authorities in this care, the Virginia authorities, have been very closed mouth. But,
suddenly, it was all spilled out and it was just shocking what you heard.
Natalie keepers, this is a woman who many people thought maybe had been dragged in on the periphery of this horrific crime. The co-
conspirator, yes, but maybe she was just there at the very end. No. The prosecution says she is in the planning up to her neck, working with David
Eisenhauer.
In fact, pointing out that a couple of days before the murder took place, the two of them got together in a fast food restaurant and coldly
and calculatingly went through exactly how they were going to murder this child. The prosecutor says that they even got down to the weapon that
would be used and the technique that would be used, slitting the little girl is throat.
Then they cased her home, and then they went out and looked at the exact area where the murder was going to take place. Step by step. They
say that Natalie Keepers was there.
PINSKY: And not only there, Marty. I understand she also bought the shovel to dispose the body, bought cleaning utensils to clean up the mess.
SAVIDGE: Right.
PINSKY: And, did I hear correctly that, that was all done while the body was in the back of this kid`s Lexus? That is the other thing here, is
that all of this seems so cold and yet this is a student with so much promise. Yes, she is driving around with David Eisenhauer. They have got
the body of a 13-year-old in the trunk. They go to Walmart to buy the cleaning supplies.
Later when authorities had discovered the body of this girl, they go to Natalie Keepers. They knock on her door. And, before she opens it, she
sends a text to David Eisenhauer. It is one word, all capital letters, "Police." She is saying the police have got me and they are coming for you.
PINSKY: Martin Savidge, thank you so much for that update on the story. I am turning it over to my panel now because frankly I am
bewildered. I -- it does not fit my understanding of humanity. Jim, any theory about this?
JIM CLEMENTE, FBI PROFILER (RET.): Well, this is a total novice, you know, totally uncriminally sophisticated attempt to sort of increase the
excitement in their lives. And, they have no idea what they are doing. They are actually taking the life of somebody else. Two people that had no
reason to be doing anything like this, yet they did it because I think they had such a poor self-image and their lives were just droll and boring.
They wanted some excitement. It is probably a sexual excitement to them.
PINSKY: Judge, you are nodding your head. I will give you a chance - -
JUDGE GREG MATHIS, HOST, "JUDGE MATHIS": Yes.
PINSKY: That is hard for me to believe, Jim. That is the tough one for me. Go ahead, Judge.
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes. That is a phenomenon that has been going on, thrill killing, that has been going on for years among these young folks.
And, we now see that college students are not exempt from being socio or psychopath. But, thrill killing is a phenomenon --
PINSKY: Thrill killing -- I grant you, that you use the word psychopath as it pertains to people that do thrill killings.
JENA KRAVITZ, PSY.D., CLINICAL NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: Right.
[21:05:00] PINSKY: Listen, thrill killers are psychopaths, right? So, do you think one of these two or both are psychopaths?
KRAVITZ: I do not, actually. And, this is probably not going to be a popular, you know, perspective here. But, I do not think we have enough
information to call her a psychopath. She does not have any history. She does not have mental diagnostics --
PINSKY: What about him?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, she does have history.
KRAVITZ: Not --
AZARI: She has a history of counseling and mental illness. I mean it does not raise to the level of insanity but --
KRAVITZ: But mental illness -- people with mental illness are generally not killers.
PINSKY: By the way, I --
CLEMENTE: This one is, though.
PINSKY: Wait, wait. I have got mental illness. I have got anxiety disorder.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: I have had depression. Sara you should --
AZARI: Watch out.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I told you that seat is very dangerous.
KRAVITZ: But, I think that we live --
PINSKY: But calling somebody -- you know, mental illness is something a word I like to use freely because 50 percent of us will experience that
at least, and it is very common. It is very treatable and it is part of being a human being. This is not part of being a human being. Going out
and getting a shovel and getting rid of a 13-year-old.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
KRAVITZ: But this is not potentially -- This is a girl who -- we live in a society where people want to be seen and they want to be heard. And,
this is a girl who said it felt good to be part of something that was special and secretive. It is creepy, I get it. But she felt like she was
being seen by this co-conspirator -- I man the killer.
PINSKY: Sara, what do you say?
AZARI: Well, you know, we know that she made this horribly incriminating statement. But the fact of the matter is, is that an
accomplice is statement alone cannot be used against David Eisenhauer. So, we still do not know -- we have not heard from David Eisenhauer. He is not
the one that made the admission. So, there has to be some corroborating evidence. In addition to Natalie`s --
CLEMENTE: But, there is a body. There is a dead 13-year-old girl.
AZARI: Correct.
CLEMENTE: We cannot forget that.
AZARI: Correct. But, what was the motive? We do not know about the motive.
PINSKY: Well, let me tell you quickly about her. You brought up the mental health issues. She has taken anti-depressant medication as the
majority of humans have. She has been on anti-anxiety medication. This is the part that is a little troubling. She cut herself years ago and has
been suicidal at times.
And, my producer wills appreciate this. This is the most damning of all. She is allergic to gluten. So, the attorneys threw that in. Thank
you, sir, for your colleagues, sort of throwing that into her defense.
Now, listen, last year our affiliate WMAR spoke to David. This is David Eisenhauer, because at that time he was a star on his high school
track team. I want you to get a look-- I will take a look at him. I want you all take a look at him and see what you think of this kid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID EISENHAUER, CONVICTED OF ABDUCTION AND FIRST-DEGREE MURDER: I just have this internal thing saying I want to be the best. I make my
personal goals achievable like -- or just out of reach of achievable. That way, I am always constantly striving to better myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You could take what that kid says and you could extrapolate, now knowing what he has been involved with. But Jim, I do not see anything
there.
CLEMENTE: Well, I mean he does not seem like, you know, the brightest bulb in the pack, but he does feel -- and I think that goes right along
with his cohort in this crime, his co-defendant in this crime, who was looking to do something more exciting with their lives. I think they
really were -- they got together. Sometimes it is almost like mob mentality. When two-two or more people get together they do things that
individually they would never do.
PINSKY I think -- I got to go to break, Sara, in one second. I think there might be more to this young lady than we are thinking, because we
really do not know about this David Eisenhauer guy. But, I have a theory, I will tell you after the break.
And, later, a husband is on trial for killing his wife. You are going to hear these unbelievable tapes that he made secretly. All throughout his
house he had tapes and videos. He was sort of a tech guy. And, now, that has all being used against him, and you will see why after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL, FATHER OF NICOLE LOVELL: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet and I want to know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE WILSON, FAMILY FRIEND: You have people like that just take her innocence from her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMMY WEEKS, NICOLE LOVELL`S MOTHER: Nicole was a very lovable person. Nicole touched many people throughout her short life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, poor mom. And, we are talking about two Virginia tech freshmen who are being charged in connection with the murder of that 13-
year-old you just saw. Police believe David Eisenhauer stabbed Nicole Lovell -- or Lovell if I am pronouncing her name correctly, to death
because they feared -- or he feared she would expose what has been called their inappropriate relationship. He is in college. She is 13.
Back with Sara, Jena, Judge Mathis, and Jim. And, I am hearing now that this young lady, Nicole`s father was in court today complaining that
his daughter did not have a hypo -- I beg your pardon. Natalie`s father, the woman what who has been accused of the murder, father was in court
today complaining that Natalie did not have a hypoallergenic pillow to sleep on in prison. And, judge, you are saying she was undercharged.
JUDGE MATHIS: Absolutely. From what I have heard thus far, it is accessory before the fact and accessory after the fact, which are very
minimal crimes, quite frankly. I think she should be charged with first- degree murder, which is premeditated, and planned, which is what she did.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
There is another couple of avenues. She conspired to murder. Thirdly, she was an accomplice. An accomplice receives the same charge and
sentence as the primary perpetrator.
PINSKY: Judge, as you mentioned, we really do not know what this David Eisenhauer was involved, the degree to which he was involved. For
all we really know, this is my little theory here. I got a bad feeling. I do not know. We do not have the facts yet, but I got a feeling about this -
- what is her name, Nicole? Is that the one in prison? Jail.
AZARI: Natalie.
PINSKY: Natalie. I beg your pardon. Natalie is in jail. I think she may be the one motivating this whole thing. I got a feeling that maybe
she got this David kid into her web and then started talking about doing something more exciting. Maybe there was some intense sexual thing between
them and she got her control over it. What do you think?
CLEMENTE: Yes, but we still have to look at -- David was sexually victimizing this 13-year-old girl.
PINSKY: We think. We think.
CLEMENTE: I mean that is the whole theory, right? That he was in a relationship, a sexual relationship with her. That is actually sexual
assault. She is a child, a minor. He is not.
PINSKY: For sure.
CLEMENTE: It is more than four years apart. This is a sex crime.
[21:15:00] PINSKY: Hang on. Sara had another theory.
AZARI: First, to complete your theory, that is what I meant by the -- what I said earlier, is that Natalie is pointing the finger at David, and
so you need corroborating evidence in addition to her statement pointing to David.
PINSKY: IN other words, she may be trying to deflect --
AZARI: Exactly. She could be the organizer and the schemer here. But, the other theory I have and I think the defense will possibly bring
this up is the victim herself -- not to blame the victim, but she is a very special girl. She has had health problems. She has been bullied.
PINSKY: Well, I will tell you. She had a liver transplant. She survived Non-Hodgkin`s Lymphoma.
AZARI: Lymphoma disease.
PINSKY: She has had a tracheotomy.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: She was in a coma for extended period of time. She had lots and lots of severe health problems.
AZARI: And, apparently, at some point she was on her own social media saying something like, "She wanted to die. She wanted to kill herself."
CLEMENTE: So, he took advantage of a very vulnerable kid. This is outrageous.
AZARI: I agree with you.
CLEMENTE: It is not a defense.
AZARI: I agree with you.
CLEMENTE: This is outrageous.
AZARI: But, everybody deserves a defense. And, I believe that, that statement by her is going to be used in court.
PINSKY: So, in other words, Sara is saying this was David and Nicole assisted suicide of this girl.
AZARI: Possibly.
PINSKY: It is a wild theory. It is a wild theory.
JUDGE MATHIS: I would throw you out of court. I would throw you out of court.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Is it OK if she stays on this show, Judge?
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes. She can stay here.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, we are going to get a call from the audience in just a second. But, while we get that set up, I want to show you some footage of
one of Nicole`s middle school friends. She spoke to "GMA" this morning -- or recently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDDIE ROBLEDO-LUIS, NICOLE`S MIDDLE SCHOOL FRIEND: There is still a lot of sadness going on. Still some of her best friends still are just
kind of scarred by it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. I am going to go to the audience. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Key point. And, that is she was on the internet exposing that she wanted to die. And, there is a lot of
elderly people, people that may be dying in a hospital that may say, "You know what, this person is suffering, let us just, you know, end this
person`s life". They are thinking they are helping them. Just like people who go and kill in the name of God or in the name of their religion.
And, when you are dealing with people that is on psychological drugs and medicines, that enhanced their belief system such as people with
schizophrenics, they may be thinking things. So, I am saying this is definitely mental illness involved. There is no way you can deny this.
PINSKY: The girl --
JUDGE MATHIS: We got two people here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
JUDGE MATHIS: We got two people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But let us get down to the root of the problem, which is causing the mental illness which is the people
that is making the psychological drugs and all the drugs that people are on --
PINSKY: Well, hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- these pharmaceutical drugs, you know --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, but there is pharmaceutical drugs and pharmaceutical drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Then the roots pulled off.
PINSKY: She is not on opiates. She is not on benzo. She is not on the things that can make people crazy. I mean do you see any evidence of
that?
KRAVITZ: No. I do not know of any pharmacological intervention --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hallucination especially with schizophrenics. You have no idea what is running on in her head --
KRAVITZ: But none of these people had hallucinations --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You have no idea what is going on in the patient`s head.
PINSKY: That is right. Absolutely. J
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Jena and I work in this field every day and we understand that people with mental illness can have thoughts that involve them
engaging in behaviors.
KRAVITZ: Right.
PINSKY: We are actually looking for evidence of that sort of thing in these cases --
JUDGE MATHIS: But there was two people. Are we saying both of them suffered from the same mental illness? --
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: We do not know about David.
CLEMENTE: The victim was suffering from suicidal thoughts. I think she was talking about that, that maybe the medications that she was on for
all the transplants and everything else she went through --
PINSKY: Right. Or maybe she had hepatic encephalopathy. She had bad liver disease.
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes, but that does not mean she has --
KRAVITZ: Is it possible that this is like a love triangle? I mean I just --
PINSKY: Well, about -- Anybody ever heard of folie a deux? Jim, go ahead.
CLEMENTE: Sure. But, you know, I do not think that is what we have here. I really believe that this guy was sexually assaulting this girl. I
believe that he was fearful that he was going to go to jail because of that and he wanted to get rid of all the evidence, which was the girl he was
having sex with.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. All right. So -- and my producer is screaming in my ear to explain folie a deux, which is not usually used. It is just two
people engaged in a delusional system together, where they think something is right that is not so right. And, that could happen. That might be what
we are dealing with here. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You mentioned a triangle, and that is exactly what I think.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And I know the girl is very young. She is only 13. But, if the other young people are not all that
much older than her. They are all teenagers. The other girl could have wanted to be with the boy --
PINSKY: OK. So, hold on. So you are saying --
KRAVITZ: That is right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: -- and was jealous.
PINSKY: Yes. So, the little girl, maybe she was with the boy and maybe the peer-age kid was wanting to be with the boy --
KRAVITZ: Right.
PINSKY: -- and needed to get rid of the 13-year-old to do so.
KRAVITZ: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yuck.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, they are still -- Their brains are still not developed at 18.
AZARI: That is right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We all know that. The brain does not fully develop till 30.
AZARI: I think the text messages will be telling.
PINSKY: I just do not look at Greg`s -- on the Judge Mathis` face, which is that you got to be kidding me. Go ahead, judge.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes, I mean, this is -- because what you are suggesting is both she and he, the perpetrator who is made the confession today and
her partner were thinking the same way, they were afflicted with the same mental illness. And, I think that --
PINSKY: A stretch.
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes, it is a reach that they are both --
PINSKY: All right. And, we are going to leave this one. Until we get more facts, this one is going to be continued to something we sort of
chew on and think about, try to come up with a reasonable explanation for what happened here.
[21:20:00] Because there is so much about this case that makes you shake your head and think, "Well, how is that possible?" If indeed it is
just the need for arousal and something more exciting in their lives, it is some of the most despicable behavior I could ever imagine.
Next up, I got secret recordings between a husband and his now dead wife played in court today. They seem like they are going to turn the case
against the husband in this murder trial. Check it out. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI, WIFE OF MATTHEW LEILI: You told me you should have killed me, put your hands on my throat and all this other (EXPLETIVE WORD).
MATTHEW LEILI, HUSBAND ACCUSED OF KILLING HER WIFE, NIQUE: I never said that.
NIQUE LEILI: Calling me (EXPLETIVE WORD).
MATTHEW LEILI: I never said that.
NIQUE LEILI: You used the words out of your (EXPLETIVE WORD) mouth. I should have let you kill yourself, so I did not have to (EXPLETIVE WORD)
do it. Do not (EXPLETIVE WORD) deny it, because those are the exact words that came out of your mouth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Chilling audiotapes exposing the volatile if not violent marriage between accused murder Matt
Leili and his now dead wife, Nique. Her nude body was found under a pile of brush in the woods near the Lawrenceville, George home in July 2011.
[21:25:12] Prosecutors say Matt Leili intended to rape his wife before killing her. They say he did not report her missing for days. And,
he filed for divorce four days after she vanished claiming, she abandoned him and their two daughters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI: You want to see how many bruises are going to show up here tomorrow? Huh?
MATTHEW LEILI: No bruises.
NIQUE LEILI: How much you want to bet me? You want to take bets on it? Huh?
MATTHEW LEILI: I never touched you, Nique. Except to --
NIQUE LEILI: Oh, my (EXPLETIVE WORD) God.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Leili allegedly recorded almost every conversation among family members using an elaborate
surveillance system that he had installed. He was not arrested until last spring when detectives recovered new footage that is now being played at
his murder trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, initially, Matt Leili claimed he and his wife had argued. He woke up the following morning to find her simply gone. The
medical examiner has since suggested that Nique had been strangled. Back with Sara, Jena, Judge Mathis and Jim.
Now, if you are wondering why people are focusing on the husband, listen to some of these audiotapes. I want to play them for you because
they are -- you have heard some already and you see the -- Let us call it what it is, the domestic violence that is going on between these two. But,
let us listen to some of the husband piece of this. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW LEILI: In the bedroom, you said to me, "No Matt, we cannot leave things alone in the doctor`s office. We have to bring it home".
NIQUE LEILI: That is not what I said and how I said it, and do not take my words out of context!
MATTHEW LEILI: Nique.
NIQUE LEILI: When we got in that (EXPLETIVE WORD) car --
MATTHEW LEILI: (EXPLETIVE WORDS). (HIT OR SLAP) Lower your voice! I am not going to sit here and listen to this (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, you are hearing domestic violence. Sara?
AZARI: Well, she is completely unstable. I think she is completely crazy. And, I think that the 500,000 --
PINSKY: I think she is completely dead.
AZARI: Well, she is completely dead, but before she died. And, I think there has been a whole slew of incidents where she has tried to stage
some kind of domestic violence on herself and he is taping all this to protect himself. I mean why would you have 500,000 plus --
CLEMENTE: Because you are a control freak. Because you tries to coercively control your life.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
AZARI: I disagree. And, also, if you listen to these tapes -- I have listened to some of them, not all of them, obviously. But, he is the one
that is usually calm. You played one where he is not. But, often he is the calm one and she is the one that is out of control.
CLEMENTE: He knows he is recording.
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes. He knows because he is the one recording it.
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: Well --
CLEMENTE: This is a guy --
JUDGE MATHIS: And, she is not crazy. She is hysterical.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree.
JUDGE MATHIS: And, that is typically what happens when you have been abused regularly, you get hysterical.
AZARI: But, how do you explain the fact that there is also an audiotape of her or videotape, I think, where she is explaining to her own
mother how she got her lip busted. Apparently, the defense is going to use that, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
If the prosecution can bring in some of these tapes to say that there was domestic violence and there was motive to strangle and kill this woman,
and that is the husband. By the way, we always look at the husband first.
PINSKY: Thank you.
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: You know, then the defense can also bring in evidence that amongst these tapes that, "Wait a minute, she has actually made statements
to her family members about how she was injured".
PINSKY: My fear -- my fear is this woman -- see, and Jena, you know what I am talking about here. Some people have some kinds of personality
disorders, their feelings get out of their body in other people. Their own rages end up in us.
If you have ever been around somebody that makes you feel rageful and you think, "I am not a rageful person, where did this come from?" Certain
personality styles do that. And, this woman definitely has that style about her. If you notice when you listen to the tape, you want to strangle
her. Right?
KRAVITZ: Right. Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: Everyone hates you -- No. She evokes that from you.
KRAVITZ: Right. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Here is what that woman needs. Not that. You need somebody who is just -- and she will calm down. She will calm down. But if you
come at her in a coercive and controlling way, she will escalate. And I -- you know, unfortunately, these people find each other. People that are not
good for each other.
So, I think that this husband got some trouble here. Here is what we do know about this case. There was a divorce filing four days after she
disappeared. After her death, the husband took the daughters from Georgia, moved to Vermont. He was arrested last spring in Atlanta, had a court
appearance over Nique`s insurance policy. Came to get the insurance.
And, the house, as I have said, is not only wired for almost all conversations but the system, get this, was shut down the morning of her
disappearance. He claims she did it. And, police say it was his log-in that resulted in the shutdown. Judge Mathis, is not this kind of the
smoking gun for this case?
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes, it is direct evidence. It is clear. In my opinion, if you put together all the circumstances we have seen, not only
is it circumstantial, it is direct. That is direct evidence there.
[21:30:00] PINSKY: Jim?
AZARI: But, where is the forensics? People want to see science. People want science. OK? There are three pieces of blond hair in his car.
Well guess what you guys? They are married. They live together. There is nothing unusual about her hair being in the couple car --
CLEMENTE: Right. But, you look at post-defense behavior, then. When there is no forensic evidence you look at his behavior, and his behavior
does not say that he was worried about his wife being gone or missing or something else.
AZARI: Wanting someone dead, which I do not blame him wanting her dead, does not mean that he killed her.
CLEMENTE: OK. But wanting someone dead and then she ends up dead and he is acting as if he knew that already, those things --
PINSKY: And, by the way, wanting to strangle somebody is different than wanting them dead.
AZARI: Sure.
PINSKY: You know what I mean. It is a very different thing. She makes us all feel like, "Oh, we got to get her to be quiet". That is
different than I want to kill her. Now, I want to show you something else. This is an exchange about Nique`s unwillingness to be romantic with her
husband. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI: At least ten times in the past two (EXPLETIVE WORDS) days that I reached out to you. You kept on and on and on with your
(EXPLETIVE WORDS). And, then wonder why when I walk through the door, I do not want to be with you. Wonder why when you take off out the door after
your snarky (EXPLETIVE WORD) I do not want to put on outfits and lipstick with you and you wonder why. And, then you want to blame that on me?
(EXPLETIVE WORD) you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is sad, guys. If anyone out there is in relationships that in any way smacks of this, please get some help. This is not good.
You do not live like this. You get help. This is treatable stuff -- Or you find ways to end it in a healthy way, because these things do get
volatile. And, if one is coercive and controlling, that is not OK. That is domestic abuse. Jena?
KRAVITZ: Yes. This is actually even a step worse, right? Because this is domestic abuse on both sides. You know, she is name calling and
there is emotional abuse and potentially physical abuse, and there is neglect of emotions. I mean this is abuse from both partners toward each
other. And, it is probably impacting their children.
PINSKY: I am going to show you a tape of the children. Could we get access to the kids? Yes. This is the teenage daughters. They made a
YouTube video in support of the father. But, I want you to take a good look at these kids and you will notice something about them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA LEILI, MATT AND NIQUE LEILI`S ELDEST DAUGHTER: : We need our dad. My mom was taken from us four years ago before I even turned 15.
And, now my dad has been taken from us. And, he has missed so much already.
REBECCA LEILI, MATT AND NIQUE LEILI`S DAUGHTER: He is missed so much already.
AMANDA LEILI: Yes, he missed Rebecca`s play. He is afraid of missing Rebecca`s 8th-grade graduation. And, we just want our dad home. That is
where he needs to be.
REBECCA LEILI: I miss him being there and his stupid jokes and waking us up in the morning with pots.
(LAUGHING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: These kids have been witnessing this abuse much of their lives. Their affect is flat. They are depressed. These are the people
that suffer. Your kids suffer if you are fighting. Do not think for a second that kids are resilient and fine.
They seem great. They are out playing. Particularly the younger kids, "Oh, they do not know any better. They will not remember it". It
imprints on their brain, and it is you that has done that. You. Both of you. Now, in this case somebody is dead, which is the worst possible
outcome.
Next, a woman who lived her own domestic abuse nightmare is going to join us. She is going to talk about her experience and her take on this
case, after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEW LEILI: This is (EXPLETIVE WORD). This is (EXPLETIVE WORDS). This is never going to fly.
NIQUE LEILI: After you put your hands around my throat and everything else.
MATTHEW LEILI: I did not put my hands around your throat!
NIQUE LEILI: Say what the (EXPLETIVE WORD) you want to, but you had your (EXPLETIVE WORD) hands around my throat and pinned to the (EXPLETIVE
WORD) wall.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He waited two days to even report her missing. And, he filed for divorce when she had been gone for four days.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI: Get off me.
MATTHEW LEILI: Stop.
NIQUE LEILI: I said get off. I said get off.
MATTHEW LEILI: Please stop.
NIQUE LEILI: I told you there was one way and only one way to end this.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I just saw a huge big pile. It just looked like it was covering up something. So, I just started kicking away
at it and then saw her body and her hair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Awful. Matt Leili is on trial for the 2011 murder of his wife Nique. The case was cold for four years until investigators
discovered a tremendous amount of surveillance video and audio and those tapes now being used against the husband.
Joining me, Alice Brown, Domestic Violence Survivor herself. She is with the Genesee Center, a domestic violence intervention program. Jena,
Judge Mathis, and Jim are back with me. Now, Alice, I have asked you to come on because of the unfortunate experience you had with coercive and
controlling relationships. Can you tell us your story?
ALICE BROWN, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR: Yes. My domestic violence and sexual assault started at the age of 4. From the age of 4 to the age
of 15.
PINSKY: And, then later on in life you got involved in a coercive and controlling relationship with a man, right?
BROWN: Yes. That is correct.
PINSKY: So, some of the trauma from earlier childhood set up the repetitive behavior later. And, how long did you stay in that
relationship?
BROWN: I stayed in that relationship five years.
PINSKY: And, how bad did it get?
BROWN: It got bad to the point where I had two black eyes, my eardrum had been cut and I had severe bruises.
PINSKY: What did you think? Why did you stay?
BROWN: Coming up as a young child, I would hear my mother tell me that if he loves you, you get hit.
PINSKY: So, love and violence were together. And, you witnessed that yourself growing up?
BROWN: Yes. I experienced it throughout that whole time.
PINSKY: So, can you imagine how these teenage girls of this family might repeat the behavior in their own relationships?
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: If there is no resources or help, how can you get the healing?
[21:40:00] PINSKY: What do you imagine happened in this case? Do you have any instinct on it?
BROWN: Not really having someone to be a voice to of what is going on.
PINSKY: Do you think that this husband was the perpetrator, killed this woman?
BROWN: I really cannot say. But, from some of the footage that I saw, I would not be surprised because it is the same language.
PINSKY: Judge Mathis is sending him away.
BROWN: Yes.
JUDGE MATHIS: Yes. I mean there is direct evidence. Who would want us to believe that one, him changing the surveillance, taking it off around
coincidentally the same time that she came up missing. Secondly, all the history of domestic violence, him against her, put those things together
and then she dies. I think that we have a pretty good case. He is not guilty? Right. Neither was O.J.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Let us get an audience comment here if we can. Let us go right ahead. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Dr. Drew. You know, I was a victim of domestic violence also. I was in a two-year relationship. And,
what I seen on this tape was co-dependency.
PINSKY: With interpersonal --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. Yes. In the beginning when there are signs of domestic abuse, you have to get help. You have to
go, go to a safe haven. She stayed. I know -- I could sense that there was some type of financial, you know, stability there. And, you can tell
in her voice because she was very angry and she is almost like mad at him, blaming him for hitting her instead of seeking help a long time ago and
getting out. She stayed.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: You know what? There is another piece of this too. This is not going to be a very popular statement I am about to make, and I am not
even sure how I am going to frame it. But it is not even so much as victim blaming, but the way this woman`s anger that you mentioned, the way she
makes us feel, I think people will end up blaming the victim. She makes you feel so unpleasant. She is so desperate. She is so angry.
BROWN: Right.
PINSKY: I think people are prone to blaming the victim when they hear these tapes. And, I think that is a grotesque distortion and a
misunderstanding of how much suffering was going on with this woman. Do you agree?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I do agree. But, it is very strong, me being, like I said again, a victim like Mrs. Alice, of domestic
violence, I did learn through going through counseling that it is called co-dependency.
And, so, you almost become so angry that you are blaming the person that is abusing you, but at the end of the day at some point you have to
get help. We have two small young beautiful children involved, teenage girls. Now, they are going to grow up thinking that, that is OK.
PINSKY: Or that that is love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right, that is love.
PINSKY: Which as Alice said. That is love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, so there is definitely has to be a balance. And, it is unfortunate that a life had to be taken. And,
statistic wise, this happens every day.
PINSKY: That is right. That is right.
BROWN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, 1 out of 10 women are being killed by their abusers. Now, the statistic is like 3 out of 10.
PINSKY: That is right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It used to be 1 out of 10. Now, it is grown.
PINSKY: And, I thank you for having the courage to not just bring that data but share your own personal story.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, that is the point. I mean that it is domestic violence, a term we throw around, but it gets very dangerous, Jena.
KRAVITZ: Yes. And, we talk about it. Thank you for bringing up co- dependency because we talk about this, sometimes, you know -- I teach graduate students about how to do therapy with families. And, we talk
about how sometimes people do not leave the family or go to safe havens, because it literally ruins the homeostasis of what is going on. Like
people literally get used to a normal that is tumultuous and violent and when they get help, it changes the whole family dynamic.
PINSKY: And, everything is exposed. The pain is exposed.
KRAVITZ: But there was some comfort for this wife, who constantly is --
PINSKY: They are attached to the trauma.
KRAVITZ: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: How did you break that cycle?
BROWN: Getting help. Counseling.
PINSKY: What did that feel like?
BROWN: You felt free. You feel free. Because you are able to talk about it. And, we talk about women, you know, finding a safe place. But
if there is no resources, it is a lack of resources or they just do not know where they can go. Because back then, I wish I did know there was a
domestic violence intervention program. Maybe my mother would still be alive.
PINSKY: Most communities have some resource for domestic violence for women. And I will tell you --
KRAVITZ: Now. But back then --
BROWN: Exactly. But back then, no.
PINSKY: I understand.
BROWN: And, even now a lot of --
JUDGE MATHIS: It is not enough.
BROWN: It is not enough. Right.
PINSKY: Not enough.
BROWN: Not enough.
PINSKY: And, those that work with the victims of domestic violence and coercive and controlling relationships we also say in situations that
are escalating, the number 1, 2, 3 and 4 priorities is getting those two people apart.
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Separating them. And, then taking a good look at things, getting the kids out of there. We have got a lot more to say. We are back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): This 31-year-old mother from Texas will spend the next 40 years behind bars. She is pleaded guilty
to producing child pornography using her own two daughters, ages 5 and 7 in the X-rated photos and videos she shot then distributed to at least one
adult male. According to investigators, one video shows the mother forcing her daughter to expose her genitals and perform sexual acts for the camera.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is known as mother of the year. Pleaded guilty. I mean, what is the matter with us, everybody? She pleaded guilty to sexual
performance of a child under the age of 14. She has given her attorney permission to share some personal information about her. Again, this is by
way of explanation. I certainly am not giving her a pass on this.
She was cognitively disabled. Learning disabled. She, herself, had been sexually abused three times before the age 20. At age 2 or 3, the
sexual abuse was so severe the perpetrator broke her leg. And, apparently, this leg injury she blacked out during. I am back with Alice, Jena, Judge
Mathis and Jim. And, Jena, just before I ask Alice for her take on this, because you went through some sexual abuse, you mentioned in the last
segment.
[21:50:05] The victim that we are crying about today has the potential to be the perpetrator of tomorrow. A certain percentage of
victims become perps. This woman was horribly sexually abused to the point that her body was broken. And, yet now she is doing that to her children.
KRAVITZ: Dr. Drew, as a clinician I understand it. As a mother, I am horrified. Who -- mothers are -- they give birth to children and they do
anything in their power to protect their children. They do not expose them like this. This is not a natural instinct for a woman.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: It is a terrible perversion of our instincts, of our brain.
KRAVBITZ: It is biological.
PINSKY: It has a biological basis. But, Alice, tell us about this. How do you react to this story?
BROWN: It saddens me. But, at the same time looking back in my life, my mother knew what was going on. So, she would pull me out of the room or
pull me out of the closet.
PINSKY: Had she been sexually abused too?
BROWN: Yes, she had.
PINSKY: So, again, it is the intergenerational transmission of trauma. Here it is. So, she was attracted to someone that ends up being a
perpetrator to her own children.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: It must have been shattering to her to realize that.
BROWN: Yes. But, I think even more for me because --
PINSKY: Of course.
BROWN: -- where do you go? Who do you talk to?
PINSKY: Where did you go when this was happening to you? What did you think? Did you black out? Did you go out of body? Did you freeze?
BROWN: I would black out. And, I would cry a lot. Went through a lot of crying at night. Jumping in my sleep. Even when I was older,
thinking someone was coming in the room to sexually assault me.
PINSKY: Did it give you a sleep disturbance where you could not sleep?
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: I have always had problems sleeping.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Right. It is natural.
KRAVITZ: And a general mistrust of other people, especially men.
PINSKY: Jim?
CLEMENTE: Unfortunately, you know, with the internet and the crimes that have happened on that with respect to child pornography, this kind of
behavior has actually become fairly common.
PINSKY: Well, stop with that statement, because you are right. And, I blame the `70s, frankly. Because we unraveled during the 1970s and
people started saying, whatever you are into, man. And people had horrible, horrible behavioral impulses, acted them out, and now we have a
pandemic cycle of intergenerational --
CLEMENTE: Yes.
JUDGE MATHIS: Now, they does drugs.
CLEMENTE: Now, they can get across the world. They can get together all at the same time, and it builds a sort of collegial atmosphere. They
feel like now they are part of a group. They are more accepted. They actually do this stuff all the time every day on --
JUDGE MATHIS: You know, one of the things I have not heard is whether any of these folks were drug addicts of some sort. Because usually as you
mentioned, in the `70s, a lot of those folks were freaked out on psychedelic drugs.
PINSKY: You are right, Judge.
JUDGE MATHIS: As today, they were thinking all kind of stuff and doing all type of stuff. And, today you have a lot of crystal meth. You
got crack. You know, folks criticize me for talking about crackheads, but some of them do this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Judge, I will tell you what. And, you are right to this extent. We do not know anything about this case particularly. But, people
that have sexual trauma are so unregulated emotionally. Their brain is disjoined. You know what I am talking about, where parts of your emotional
systems are disconnected from the other part and they seek out a solution for that.
And, our wonderful culture gives them drugs and alcohol. And, my profession gives them opiates and benzodiazepines. And, now we have drug
addiction on our hands. So, the drug addiction is a very common concomitant issue with trauma. In my world, it is a 100 percent
probability if you come to see me, you had trauma similar to yours. Did you ever have a drug or alcohol problem?
BROWN: No.
PINSKY: So, she did not have the genetics for that.
CLEMENTE: Right. But, can I also say you mentioned a statistic saying that if you are victimized, there is a percentage of those that go
on to be offenders.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLEMENTE: But, of course. But, in the general population that is true. There is a percentage of people that will grow up to be offenders.
The percentage of victims who become offenders is very small. These stats are like under 5 percent.
PINSKY: But Jim, the problem is that somebody who becomes an offender does not offend once.
CLEMENTE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: They offend hundreds of times oftentimes. And, now we have exponential to the power of two of growth of something horrific and then a
small percentage of those do the same.
CLEMENTE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: So, we have to keep going. We have to take a break. We will be back after this with my panel and the audience.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are discussing a 31-year-old Texas mother who pleaded guilty to producing and distributing pornography featuring her own young
daughters. According to the woman`s attorney, the children are living now with their father. They are doing, quote, "Fine".
But, I got to say, after a child has been through something like this and having been raised by a mother like this, there is no doing fine.
Because they look fine and are running around and enjoying themselves on that particular day. They harbor deep wounds and those wounds need to be
treated. Jena, do you agree with me?
KRAVITZ: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes. Alice, you understand what I am talking about?
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: And, you wanted to point out the organization you represent, to call out for people that might need help.
BROWN: If you know anyone that is experiencing domestic violence you can call us at our 1-800 number that is 1-800-479-7328. We have a wealth
of services, free legal services, counseling classes --
PINSKY: It is the Genesee.
BROWN: And, it is the Genesee Center. Emergency housing and transitional housing.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: And, most communities have something in common. So, Jena, I got a few second remaining. It always bothers me when kids have been
through a traumatic event and because the parents do not want to deal with the pain the kids are in, they see the kids sort of seeming to thrive.
"Oh, they are fine. They are going to be fine." They are not without treatment.
KRAVITZ: No. Absolutely not. These types of traumas imprint on their brain like you said earlier.
PINSKY: They change the trajectory of development of this organ. Why we cannot understand this organ is the same as any other in our body?
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: It has biology. It has illnesses. It has trajectories, we can predict just like we came with this organ and the heart. And, by the
way, it is deeply connected with this one.
KRAVITZ: It is harder to fix that one, though.
PINSKY: Harder to fix --
KRAVITZ: Easily to injure. Harder to fix.
PINSKY: We leave that for another day. The heart or the brain. DVR us then you watch us any time. Thank you, audience. Good job, panel. We
will see you next time.
[22:00:10] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END.
END
