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Dr. Drew
Husband Guilty of Murdering Wife, Dragging Body into Woods; New Details of Two Virginia Tech Students Charged in Killing of 13-Year-Old; Affluenza Teen Moved to Adult Jail. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 08, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, a husband found guilty of murdering his wife and dragging her body into the
woods. That secret tapes he made of their disputes, helped convict him.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI, WIFE OF MATTHEW LEILI: You told me you should have killed me, put your hands on my throat.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): And, the affluenza teen moved to adult jail. Are other inmates out to get him? Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And, we have new details tonight about the two Virginia Tech students charged in the killing of a 13-year-old, let us face it, a child.
Nicole Lovell`s father is speaking out about what happened. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David E. Eisenhauer on one felony count of abduction and one felony count of first-degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL, FATHER OF NICOLE LOVELL: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet and I want to know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE WILSON, FAMILY FRIEND: You have people like that just take her innocence from her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Prosecutors say he planned the murder with Natalie Keepers after talking with Lovell on social media.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The 13-year-old`s parents say she pushed a dresser in front of her bedroom door then climbed out a window.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Eisenhauer used this relationship to his advantage to abduct and then kill her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN HOST: She is driving around with David Eisenhauer. They have got the body of a 13-year-old in the trunk. They go to Walmart
to buy the cleaning supplies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What was the motive? We do not know about the Motive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Well, they even got down to the weapon that would be used and the technique that would be used, slitting the little girl is throat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and Legal Analyst for Avvo.com; David Swanson, Psychotherapist; R.J. Manuelian,
Criminal Defense Attorney and Cheryl Hunter. She, herself, a trauma recovery expert and trauma survivor.
Now, here is what Natalie told a judge yesterday about her past mental health. I want to understand this situation. I do not get it, but I am
concerned about that young lady. A lot of the attention has been on the dude, David Eisenhauer, but I am concerned about her.
She has a history of suicidal thoughts. She cuts. She has anxiety. She is on anti-depressants. She was bullied. She also had some a couple of
notes about how she was being treated in prison. Jail food was not gluten free. Pillows were not hypo allergenic. Her anti-depressant needed to be
adjusted.
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Aw.
PINSKY: Yes. I know. Lisa is actually growling. I never quite heard that before. You know, like cats growl.
BLOOM: Yes. Sounds good.
PINSKY: My point is everybody thinks that the boy did this. There are things about him you will learn about him in a few minutes, but the girl --
I wonder if she sucked him into something.
BLOOM: You know, we always underestimate the female`s involvement in these plots.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: This reminds me of the San Bernardino terrorists, where everybody talked about the male --
PINSKY: 100 percent, exactly what I thought of.
BLOOM: And, forgets about the female. Right?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BLOOM: And, so, here -- Let us not assume that she is the innocent naive person, who got sucked into something. I mean we just do not know at this
point.
PINSKY: And, R.J., you are a defense attorney. I imagine you would push - - if you were defending David Eisenhauer, you would quickly push the blame on to the girl, no?
R.J. MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And, now, she is already sunk her feet inside the sunk pit. She is making a statement about
what had happened. And, if her statements are not consistent with the DNA in the case; in other words, if she was the one that killed Nicole, then
David Eisenhauer is going to have an opportunity to attack and push all the liability against her. So, it is smart for him to keep his mouth shut and
have Natalie shoot herself in the foot.
PINSKY: Now, I want to get to the guy, now, David Eisenhauer. His roommate describes him to the "Washington Post" as a loner, who did not
have many friends. The roommate said he was a difficult person to understand and kept mostly to himself. And, yet, a friend, one of David`s
cross country friend said this about him. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I liked his attitude. He was very upbeat, very knowledgeable, very personable, very accommodating. Almost like an
ambassador from Virginia Tech. You could always count on him at the very end of the race to be a great sportsman and give a high five every single
competitor all the way to the last runner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, David, that is why I throw up my hands a little bit --
DAVID SWANSON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.
PINSKY: -- when I try to figure out the case. There is no tell here. There is nothing makes me go, "OK, that is what things going on. Do you
agree with me?
SWANSON: Well, I do, but I am not buying that the girl is like the power source behind this whole crime. I mean look --
PINSKY: Hold on a second. One second. He is sexist, Lisa.
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: We just do not know.
SWANSON: Just let it come out right now.
BLOOM: We do not know, but you could be open to the possibility, right?
SWANSON: I do not think it is --
BLOOM: She is older.
SWANSON: Look. This is a girl given all of her makeup, she looks like maybe she lacks a sense of self. This is a sex crime, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
SWANSON: Is it not that he was out having inappropriate sex.
BLOOM: And willing to commit sex crime.
SWEANSON: And, he wanted to cover it up. He probably saw his future disappearing in front of his eyes. She probably threatened to let it go.
And, this was a girl who is there to help him out.
PINSKY: We actually do not know that it is a sex crime. It sounds like that kind of thing, but we actually do not know. And, Cheryl, as a victim,
does it give you instinct about what might have happened? And, give people a little sketch of what had happened with your case.
[21:0503] CHERYL HUNTER, TRAUMA RECOVERY EXPERT, SURVIVOR: Sure. So, I was abducted while traveling overseas as a teenager. And, there were two
men that took me, and I never saw justice served. But, when you were talking about -- you know, is the woman the master mind, this is a sex
crime, I think the 13-year-old was going to accuse of something. She was going to after him. This is a 13-year-old.
PINSKY: Yes.
HUNTER: I cannot imagine she has anything else on her mind in her favor other than trying to have this wonderful relationship with her boyfriend,
as she called him.
PINSKY: And, she was an at risk youth, too, David, because she had a liver transplant. She had Non-Hodgkin`s Lymphoma. She had an extended coma
following an inspection. I mean she may have some brain trauma issues from that coma. I mean this is a girl who could be victimized easily. We
do not know to what extent neurologically or psychologically.
SWANSON: She is 13. She should be protected. And, the idea that a college kid drives up and watches her climb out the window, I am sorry.
There is something wrong with that.
PINSKY: Well, I do not know if that happened. That is what drives me insane. It does not fit with how that guy, David Eisenhuaer, is sort of
described by his friends. Now, Nicole`s dad said he had recently taken Nicole`s phone away from her after he discovered she was having
inappropriate chats. By the way, everybody who has a teenager at home, there is a lot of technology.
BLOOM: Check their phones.
PINSKY: Go to Technology Wellness Center, get some of the nanny ware you can get. It is teen safe. There is a lot of them out there.
SWANSON: There are a lot of them.
PINSKY: Well, here is what he said, quote, "You could tell these older guys had fake profiles. Some of the things they said were way too grown up
for the picture they had". Now, dad, unfortunately, gave her the phone back. So, he was able to access her again, obviously. Lisa.
BLOOM: Yes, but I mean, how painful is that? I mean -- and I think every parent of teens struggles with that. You never think this is going to be
the horrific outcome. And, you know, it is almost impossible for a teen to have a life without a phone, but I think you have to monitor it. You have
random checks. You have to go on all -- you have to monitor and see what they are doing.
PINSKY: Yes. My point for sure to anybody out there with teens, do not get caught up in this sort of conundrum, you know -- am I being intrusive?
You are the parent for Christ`s sake.
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Do not be silly about this. Get as far as you can. Get in, do what you need to do to monitor. It is a privilege that they have access to
electronic media. It is something they do and you have an obligation to follow. Now, David`s parents, in all of this, his parents have a very
expensive house. They own a $600,000 home, but he apparently has a court- appointed attorney. Does that sound bizarre, R.J.?
MANUELIAN: Yes. Well, remember, it is him. He has -- David Eisenhauer needs the attorney, so it is based on the defendant, not on the defendant`s
family. I get that a lot from the judges when I get hired. They look at me and they say, "Well, how can the defendant afford you or the family
afford you." I said, "The defendant is indigent." If the defendant is indigent, you are entitled to court ordered representation. So, the
family really does not have a plan.
PINSKY: Let me throw one last wrinkle into this. Somebody somewhere had said that perhaps that 13-year-old girl was online talking about suicide,
asking for assistance in suicide and anybody that has been in the onion router and the dark web knows that stuff like this goes on a lot. And,
there is way more of this going on online than we care to think about. But, what if these got wind to that and were just on some weird thrill
ride, Lisa.
BLOOM: So, absolutely chilling. And, of course, they would be an accessory to murder. So, I want that to be very clear. There is no, you
know, helping a teenager with suicide, even if she asked for it. That is just completely out of the question.
PINSKY: It is ridiculous. All right, we will keep this going. And, later on, a husband is found guilty of murdering his wife. I have her sister
here. You will hear the tapes that really sunk this guy. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: It is so hard that I have to announce that we have located the remains of 13-year-old Nicole Madison Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I did not think that would happen to her because she was always the cutest little thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMMY WEEKS, NICOLE LOVELL`S MOTHER: Nicole was a very lovable person. Nicole touched many people throughout her short life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am just so sad for that mom and for this child, and a vigil for 13-year-old Nicole Lovell is under way right now near the Virginia Tech
Campus. I am back now with Lisa, David, RJ and Cheryl. Now, Dr. Phil has spoke with Nicole`s dad earlier. I want to show you a little footage.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL: I will bet she fought like a wildcat. I mean she is my kid. I know she fought like a wildcat. The Keeper girl in her mug shot, looks
like she has a scar. I could not tell in court because of her hair, but you can see it in those pictures right there. You can see the scar on her
face.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, PSYCHOLOGIST AND TALK SHOW HOST OF "DR.PHIL" T.V. SERIES: So, if that is from your daughter then that would indicate that she was
there while she was still alive.
DAVID LOVELL: Exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, I do not know about our audience, but I know here we are struggling with how could this be? I do not have experience with young
males that seemed to be well put together, seemed to be so social. I do not mean charming. I do not mean leading.
I mean they just seem like normal kids. No history of behavior problems. No history of torturing animals. No history of aggression or violence.
They are suddenly doing something that is wildly despicable. Do any of you have a history or have you defended a case like this, R.J.?
MANUELIAN: Not like this. It is an anomaly. And, you think about it, you have a NASA intern and you have some ocean engineer, double major with
Natalie Keepers. So, it is very strange. But, that is why I think this is more of a crime of passion. I think that the injuries that you saw on
Natalie, the scars are probably indicative of a fight that happened. And, I think this was more of a passionate crime rather than a conspiracy crime
that she put it.
PINSKY: So, they are fighting over a boy?
MANUELIAN: It looks like. Well, they are fighting over a boy, yes. I mean they are young.
BLOOM: But, they just need to check the DNA under her finger nails. And, if she has Natalie`s DNA under her nails that places Natalie at the scene
as a perpetrator.
PINSKY: David, are you as confused as I am?
SWANSON: Yes and no. I actually think that I would agree a crime of passion, but there is one thing that also could explain and that is fear.
This is a guy going to a university, trying to make something of his life. And, then, lo and behold, a girl is going to come public with a
relationship that he could be registered as a sex offender. Right?
[21:15:12] PINSKY: Sure.
SWANSON: How do you stop that? And, out of fear, I can see you reacting that way.
PINSKY: Joining me now, via Skype, I have Alicia Kozakiewicz. Am I getting that right, Alicia? She is founder of the Alicia Project. How
about that, I got your name right?
ALICIA KOZAKIEWICZ. LURED BY PREDATOR ON INTERNET (via Skype): Yes. Thanks.
PINSKY: Thank you. Now, you had something happen to you when you were just 13 years of age. Tell us about that.
KOZAKIEWICZ: When I was 13, I was groomed and lured from my home by an internet predator, who kidnapped me from my Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania home
to Virginia and held me captive in his basement dungeon. And, I was miraculously rescued, because he had broadcast himself abusing me to other
people online.
PINSKY: Oh, wow. Was this an older man or was this a young college-aged kid like this case?
KOZAKIEWICZ: No. He was an older man. He was in his late 30s.
PINSKY: This reminds me of that guy that kept the women in prison -- was that in Pittsburgh or something. Remember that whole story?
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Cleveland. Cleveland.
BLOOM: Ohio, right.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: And, the movie "Room."
PINSKY: Yes. This is just -- how did you -- how do you survive in a situation like that, Alicia?
KOZAKIEWICZ: Well, you find the will to live. I wanted to survive. I knew that my family loved me and they were looking for me. And, that there
was so much more that I had to live for in life.
PINSKY: And, how long were you held captive?
KOZAKIEWICZ: I was held captive for four days. And, on the fifth day, from my understanding, was the day that he had planned to kill me.
PINSKY: Did you suffer posttraumatic stress disorder?
KOZAKIEWICZ: I did. I think we all, survivors, go through our own sort of posttraumatic stress, and it is different for everybody. And, I can say
that I am a whole lot better now. I am still healing in some ways.
PINSKY: Sure.
KOZAKIEWICZ: In other ways, things are back to as normal as they can be.
PINSKY: You know, Alicia, we were discussing the story about the Virginia tech kids, a boy and a girl, who were engineering students who seemed to
have -- seems they murdered a 13-year-old. Do you have any hunch on what happened here, given your experience?
KOZAKIEWICZ: Well, it sounds like we have two adults. I know that they are young adults, but they are still adults. And, we have a 13-year-old
child, who made a mistake and that is all it is and kids make mistakes. Kids makes mistakes all the time. But, it is an adult`s position to never
take advantage or exploit those mistakes.
PINSKY: Yes. Big deal, I would say this way. Big people take care of little people, period, end of story. Any position of authority, any
position where you are a bigger person than somebody else, you take care of those people. You do not violate the boundaries. Thank you, Alicia. We
really appreciate you sharing the story with us. I have no doubt seeing you again soon. Take care of yourself. The Alicia project, correct?
KOZAKIEWICZ: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. Got it. Cheryl, again, is it evocative for you to hear somebody else`s story like this? And, again, you had guys that on the
surface looked like normal young French men as well.
HUNTER: Right.
PINSKY: This way this David Eisenhauer seemed like a normal guy. Does this all makes sense to you? We are all struggling with it. Maybe you
have had to look in the eyes of these despicable creatures. Maybe it makes more sense to you.
HUNTER: It does make sense in one regard. And, yet, one of the things that is most markedly there in my mind is that this dichotomy that she was
living. She is a 13-year-old, who is carrying a minions blanket, for pit`s sake.
BLOOM: Yes.
HUNTER: She is still in that childhood world. And, yet all of the feelings that an adult would have. And, like a 13-year-old, you could
imagine if they had a relationship she would want to go public about it. She had been telling some friends about it. This is my boyfriend. And, to
experience the threat of that ending, you could only imagine she might say something. I am going to do this.
PINSKY: And, to be fair, she is not your average 13-year-old. Again, liver transplant case, multiple hospitalizations -- lengthy
hospitalizations.
HUNTER: She had experienced more pain and difficult by 13 than many do in a long time.
PINSKY: Very, very much so. All right, thank you, guys. Coming up, a husband found guilty now of his wife`s murder. Is that enough for the
victim`s sister? She has more to say. You will hear the tapes that sunk this guy, as I said. We will back with this story after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEW LEILI, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HIS WIFE: You think I am going to harm you?
NIQUE LEILI, WIFE OF MATTHEW LEILI: I do not know, Matt. You tried to tonight.
MATTHEW LEILI: I did not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Chilling audiotapes exposing the volatile if not, violent marriage between accused murderer, Matt Leili and his now dead
wife Nique. Her nude body was found under a pile of brush in the woods near their Lawrenceville, Georgia home in July of 2011.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, initially, Matt Leili claimed he and his wife argued. He woke up the following morning to find her simply gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Leili allegedly recorded almost every conversation among family members using an elaborate surveillance system
that he had installed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: New tonight. Matt Leili, convicted of murder, sentenced to life without parole. Though, he says he did not do it. Back with Lisa, David
and R.J. > Lisa, a shot an appeal for this guy? Is there any possibility?
BLOOM: I mean sure. He is going to give it a shot, right? He is going to argue five years had passed and the evidence was old. I mean he is going
to argue something. But, it is always the husband. Is not it always the husband or at least you have to rule out the husband and they could never
rule him out.
PINSKY: What is the Louis C.K. routine about the greatest threat to a women is a male.
BLOOM: It is true.
PINSKY: And, yet you accept an invitation from one to ride in his car to go somewhere with him at night?
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: It is like, come on, everybody. Yes, the husbands are the more likely. But, R.J., how do you defend this guy? He taped everything that
went on in that house like he was preparing for this.
MANUELIAN: Yes. And, that is a problem in the case. Those tapes came in to the case.
PINSKY: To sunk him, right?
MANUELIAN: So, you know the lawyers are going to say what they call, the probative value did not outweigh the prejudicial effect. In other words,
it was way too prejudice. And, once the jurors heard those tapes, they could not, make up their minds to find him not guilty. So, they are going
to appeal that and they are going to appeal anything else that the lawyers deemed to be foul play in the case.
[21:25:11] PINSKY: Here is the 911 call places by Nique, the wife, in 2011. This were just three weeks before her body was found. Have a
listen.
(BEGAN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: Gwinnett County 911.
NIQUE LEILI: Yes, my husband refuses to let me leave the house.
MATTHEW LEILI: My wife is -- my wife is yelling and screaming and just woke up the children. My name is Matt Leili, I have a tape recorder of
this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: What is your address, ma`am?
MATTHEW LEILI: 19 - can you hold on a second, please? Do you really want the cops here? I think my wife is just throwing a temper tantrum. I do
not think we need the police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: All right. Let me -- let me have her tell me that, sir.
MATTHEW LEILI: All right. You need to pick up the phone. Otherwise, they are going to come.
NIQUE LEILI: You do not need to come. I will stay in my house all day.
MATTHEW LEILI: Ma`am, I am sorry. We really do not need the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining our panel is Claudia Jordan. She is a domestic violence survivor. Her new television show "The Next 15" premieres this Wednesday
on T.V. One. Claudia, when you hear those tapes, do you hear a coercive and controlling domestic violence situation or do you hear a woman with
mental illness of some type and the husband is merely trying to respond to.
CLAUDIA JORDAN, DOMESTIC ABUSE SURVIVOR: I think it is a controlling man, and the fact that he was recording all the conversations like, why were you
doing that? And, that is the part that, it freaks me out. And, it is like I have seen that kind of behavior before when you try to control and micro
manage everything. And, that is a major red flag that we sometimes miss and think it is someone that really cares.
BLOOM: Yes. How about, he will not let me leave the house? If that is not a red flag, I do not know what is. And, then at the end, when the
police officer says, "Is everything OK?" She says, "Yes. I guess I will just stay in the house all day", which I take to mean, "You know, I am
really not OK here. I do not think the police officer picked up on that.
PINSKY: But, I do not know how much more coercive and controlling you can be than saying you cannot leave the house and you have to stay under my
surveillance cameras and tapes all the time. That sort of defines coercive and controlling, but she has a energy.
Now, the question is does she have energy because she is in a domestic violence situation or domestic abuse situation is making her that way or is
she that way and this guy is just trying to respond. He does not know what he is doing. David, what do you think?
SWANSON: Well, listen, I think it is really sad that marriages get to this point. But, this sounds like somebody who is deeply insecure.
PINSKY: He, the man?
SWANSON: Yes. He sounds very insecure.
PINSKY: Yes.
SWANSON: He sounds very afraid to lose control, and he is really trying to keep her under lock and key.
PINSKY: And, for whatever reason. Lisa.
BLOOM: Which is not OK, right?
PINSKY: It is not OK.
BLOOM: It is illegal and you know false imprisonment and I mean --
PINSKY: And, bizarre. I have a suspicion that is kind of going both ways on this one, like you know what I mean? He is a coercive and controlling
guy. It is inexcusable what he is doing. But, her -- the intensity of her reaction seems pathological.
BLOOM: But, how would you feel if someone would not let you leave your house?
PINSKY: I would be pathological, too. And, listen to these tapes. This is an argument over the lack of trust between the two of them. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEW LEILI: You are the one that got busted in a relationship that I kept accusing you of and then when I found out about it, it was because I
was paranoid. All the times that I have recorded conversations in the past when you were talking with your sister or talking with your mother, and I
kept telling you, and you cry, oh, I do not talk my -- and I record those conversations after I get fed up of the lies. Not that I was doing it
continuously since day one, monitoring you like some kind of possessive freak. Just when I got tired of being lied to.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Claudia, when you hear the tapes how do you react?
JORDAN: Well, I mean they have clearly -- this is a couple that needed to break up a long time ago.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
JORDAN: And, a lot of times for some reason, people stay in hostile relationships.
PINSKY: You had something happen to you, right?
JORDAN: I did.
PINSKY: Can share that with us.
JORDAN: I was in college. And, I had a possessive boyfriends at the time. And, it started with little things. I like your hair, better like this. I
like you wear these kind of jeans. And, you do it at first to making your partner happy, but then before you know it, you are a different person.
So, it is not like this happens overnight, where it is like, "You cannot go out anywhere." No. It started with little things. And, then you do not
even realize how big it has gotten. So, I mean, these people did not need to be together. She probably -- If she was messing around he is paranoid.
She is paranoid. But, this is a couple that needed to not even probably be married.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. The first order of business would be separating these two, no matter what. No matter who you thought was doing
what. All you will be focused on is getting them separated.
And, now someone is dead. This guy is coercive and controlling behavior that we all look at and are incensed by. You want to think that is
probably the guy that did it. He probably finally lost control, but you say no, R.J.
MANUELIAN: I am saying that is what the prosecution wants the jury to believe. And, they are using those audio tapes to make him seem like the
bad guy like. It is almost the Scott Peterson effect. If you hate him enough, you will convict him quicker. And, that is the strategy used there
--
BLOOM: Well, except that there was good evidence against Scott Peterson and that is why he is now a convicted murderer and the same is true for
this guy.
MANUELIAN: Well, I could dispute that. I do not think there was enough in the Scott Peterson case to convict him. I think they basically did it on
the fact that he was a bad husband, had he lied about certain things.
[21:30:00] BLOOM: Except his DNA evidence.
MANUELIAN: But, there were a lot of things admitted that should not have been, like the dog sniffing expert. The other things, the bow tie expert.
There is a lot of --
BLOOM: I do not think we want to relitigate the Scott Peterson.
MANUELIAN: The point is that --
BLOOM: The concern I have here is the false equivalence. I do not want to it -- He did things wrong. She did things wrong. He was the one that was
recording her when she is trying to have phone calls with her family.
PINSKY: Which is crazy.
BLOOM: Right.
MANUELIAN: You have to realize --
BLOOM: I mean that is possessive and sick.
MANUELIAN: Anybody who is doing that has been so narcissistically injured. They feel such deep pain that they want to control the situation, because
if you are uncomfortable, the antidote for anxiety is control.
I actually do think that there is a high degree of likelihood he may have killed his wife. In other words, you are going to stay here and if you
step out of bounds one more time we got a problem. It would make sense.
PINSKY: Yes. It makes sense to me, too that he is so obsessed with her and so hurt by her and so busy controlling her that this guy -- and she is
so aggressive. You heard the tape. She is aggressive. It is true.
MANUELIAN: Yes.
BLOOM: Verbally.
PINSKY: Yes. But, who would not be in this situation? He at a certain point might have done something. All right, we will keep it going.
And, later, I have the affluenza teen now in adult prison. Should we worry for his safety there? Is this a tell? Does this mean he might be trialed
as an adult in adult`s court? Discuss that after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEW LEILI: In the bedroom, you said to me, "No Matt, we cannot leave things alone in the doctor`s office. We have to bring it home".
NIQUE LEILI: That is not what I said and how I said it, and do not take my words out of context!
MATTHEW LEILI: Nique.
NIQUE LEILI: When we got in that (EXPLETIVE WORD) car --
MATTHEW LEILI: (EXPLETIVE WORDS). (HIT OR SLAP) Lower your voice! I am not going to sit here and listen to this (EXPLETIVE WORD).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
AMY ROBINSON, NIQUE`S SISTER: He told us six, seven different stories about when she was missing when she disappeared, you know. Once he said
she took her toothbrush. Once he said that she took her cigarettes with her. The time of the night that she disappeared kept changing.
He was never consistent with his story. And, then when I went on the Thursday that she was missing, which this would have been the 14th, I guess
-- July 14th, he kept talking about her in the past tense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is the sister of the wife. And, of course, you were listening to one of the thousands and thousands of audio recordings played
in the Matt Leili trial. And, again, as I said, the sister of the woman he murdered.
Back with Lisa, David, R.J. and Claudia. I want to play a bunch of these tapes for you to get a sense of how disturbed this relationship is. And,
it is my attempt to get through to people at home. If any of these interactions sound familiar to you, you are in harm`s way. This is not OK.
This is not what a marriage is. This particular exchange appears to be about Nique`s unwillingness to be romantically intimate with Matt. Have a
listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI: At least ten times in the past two (EXPLETIVE WORDS) days that I reached out to you. You kept on and on and on with your (EXPLETIVE
WORDS). And, then wonder why when I walk through the door, I do not want to be with you. Wonder why when you take off out the door after your
snarky (EXPLETIVE WORD) I do not want to put on outfits and lipstick with you and you wonder why. And, then you want to blame that on me?
(EXPLETIVE WORD) you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Claudia, when you hear that, you are reacting.
JORDAN: I had not heard that part those tapes. And, I mean, again, clearly, why are you, guys, forcing yourselves to be miserable together?
Like he clearly is over her behavior, and I see why. And, she is not happy with him. So, why are you forcing a square peg in a round hole?
PINSKY: R.J., you are shifting.
MANUELIAN: Why are they recording this? Why do people record their crimes? Is that a new fashion --
(LAUGHING)
BLOOM: Well, he recorded it.
MANUELIAN: --that they maybe recording crimes now? Why is that happening?
PINSKY: I think he felt --
BLOOM: Did she know she was being recorded.
PINSKY: No, apparently not.
BLOOM: OK. I think so.
PINSKY: I think he felt he was recording her aberrant behavior, because he was accusing her of lying. He was accusing her of mistreating him and he
wanted to document that. But, listen, again, if you are in a relationship, where you feel the need to document like that, get out.
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Just get out. So, right now, everybody. Do you agree, David?
SWANSON: I do. I think, look, people fight. And, that is OK, but when you feel tension on a daily basis with your spouse or your partner, it is
time to get help or get out.
BLOOM: You do not want to be a prosecutor in your own marriage. You lied and now I have the proof and now I have the tapes, and I will use it
against you! I mean that is sick.
PINSKY: That is sick.
JORDAN: Document it to get out for grounds for divorce. But not like to - - I mean, why?
BLOOM: Yes. And, you do not need grounds for divorce anymore. You can just go if you want to go.
SWANSON: It feels like a set-up to me. It is almost like we anticipate that something bad is going to happen. So, I want that proof that I am a
victim here. I mean that is why he recorded it. Let us be honest.
PINSKY: And, yet, R.J., you say why do people record their crimes. He stopped the tapes the morning she disappeared. As you heard the sister
say, he was very inconsistent with how he reported her missing. There was more than just the tapes that this guy was hung out to dry for.
MANUELIAN: True, but those tapes should have been very carefully decided whether to put in the trial, because it sounds to the average juror that he
has anger issues. And, those anger issues were definitely attributed to the jury decision-making process.
SWANSON: And, he mentions the affair on the tapes.
PINSKY: I know.
SWANSON: So, it is almost like it is a set-up. I am not going to say he killed her, but it would be an alibi that maybe he could use. I do not
know if alibis are the right word. But, maybe I could use it. How do you know it is me, she is having other relationships and look how bad our
relationship was.
PINSKY: Here are some more courtroom footage of Matt, the husband as a portion of the audio is played.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIQUE LEILI: Number one --
MATTHEW LEILI: You do not agree with anything that comes out of my mouth, because you are a control freak.
NIQUE LEILI: There are very few that I agree with.
MATTHEW LEILI: Because you are the control freak.
NIQUE LEILI: No. I believe in compromise, Matt.
MATTHEW LEILI: You do not believe in --
NIQUE LEILI: I do not believe everything is black and white.
MATTHEW LEILI: Compromise --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00] PINSKY: And, Claudia, he is chuckling if you see that there. There is a dead woman we are hearing from in court and he is --
JORDAN: Two things. He is chuckling and his level of anger on the tapes is so calm.
PINSKY: Yes.
JORDAN: And, then hers is on level 10.
PINSKY: And, here is what concerns me more than anything, everybody. There is something called intergenerational transmission of trauma. I
talked about it here all this time, that when you are around something like that growing up, you magically will be attracted to someone that will help
you recreate your family of origin or the trauma of the experiences you had in childhood.
Now, Leili`s two teenage daughters made a YouTube video in support of the father. But, look at how, to my eye, they seemed disconnected. Their
affect is blunted. And, this is what these two have done to their children. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA LEILI, MATT AND NIQUE LEILI`S ELDEST DAUGHTER: We need our dad. My mom was taken from us four years ago before I even turned 13. And, now my
dad has been taken from us. And, he has missed so much already.
REBECCA LEILI, MATT AND NIQUE LEILI`S DAUGHTER: He has missed so much already.
AMANDA LEILI: Yes, he missed Rebecca`s play. He is afraid of missing Rebecca`s 8th-grade graduation. And, we just want our dad home. That is
where he needs to be.
REBECCA LEILI: I miss him being there and his stupid jokes and waking us up in the morning with pots.
(LAUGHING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is their dad. I feel for these girls. That is the world they grew up in.
Next up, affluenza teen sits in adult jail tonight. What does that mean for his future? What does that mean for his future prosecution. We are
back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ethan Couch got drunk, drove, killed four people and injured several others.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ETHAN COUCH, CHARGED WITH MURDER OF FOUR PEOPLE: I am taking valium, hydrocodone, Marijuana, cocaine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The teen was only sentenced to probation. His attorneys argued, he suffered from affluenza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: When is the last time you recall disciplining Ethan for anything?
TONYA COUCH, MOTHER OF ETHAN COUCH: I do not remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: The teen was seen with blond hair in a video that appeared to show him at a party with alcohol. They say his mother, Tonya Couch, had
planned for her son before they were to disappear to Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN HOST: Breaking news. You are looking at brand new video of Ethan Couch leaving Mexico heading back to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We want to make sure that Ethan seize jail time. He is a danger to the public and he needs to be held accountable
like the adult he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: 18-year-old so-called affluenza teen so-called, Ethan Couch has been transferred from a juvenile detention center to an adult jail. Law
enforcement says, prosecutors say they requested the transfer because he is no longer a child.
Back with us, Lisa, David and RJ. And, joining us, John Cardillo, WJNO and syndicated radio host, former NYPD Officer. Lisa, is this procedure as
usual if kid is not 17 anymore --
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: He is an adult, not 19, but he is an adult.
BLOOM: Well, listen. In some places in the U.S., we put kids under the age of 18 in adult prisons. And, I think that is terrible and there are a
lot of human rights groups that are opposing that. But, in this case, he is 18. He can go to big prison with the other adults. He is legally an
adult.
PINSKY: R.J, agree?
MANUELIAN: Yes. Unfortunately, that is true. I mean there is a psychological problems from this perspective that when you are 16 and 17
and you go to juvenile facility, there is a big difference between a juvenile camp and an adult center. It is quite shocking to the senses, so
I know where it is going through, but unfortunately, he is eligible.
PINSKY: And, the Juvenile camp is more about rehabilitation, right?
MANUELIAN: Yes.
PINSKY: The adult is more about punishment. Listen, the other guy that ought to be punished is the guy who came up with the affluenza idea.
Please, do no you agree with me that whatever psychologist got up under oath and talked about affluenza --
SWANSON: Yes. We have been talking about the Avery case and the injustice of the justice system. When I heard that I thought to myself, would this
fly with any other culture other than white America? I mean to me, that really bothered me.
BLOOM: I think our whole system has affluenza, right? Our whole system rewards the rich and let them get away with things like this.
PINSKY: Now, the sheriff said -- again, I refuse to -- I choke on the affluenza teen sort of title. I am willing to say so-called affluenza
teen. He has been placed in a single cell for his own protection. John, let me ask you this. If he is at risk, a safety risk, why move him to an
adult jail? Why not just keep him where he was.
JOHN CARDILLO, WJNO RADIO HOST AND FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Because he is a savage who murdered four people, destroyed the lives of four families and
he should go to jail for the rest of his life in an adult jail. He did this. He took the drugs. He downed the drinks. He killed four people and
destroyed four families. I have no sympathy for this guy, whatsoever.
PINSKY: You know, I have some sympathy with people -- you know, I have treated many people that have killed in their disease. And, they were
remorseful and contrite and wanting to clean up their side of the street and were dedicated to their treatment. This is the opposite of that. This
is a kid that is enabled by his mom. He leaves the country. He is trying to obfuscate and abscond from the responsibility here.
CARDILLO: Yes.
PINSKY: Do not you think he should be trialed as an adult?
CARDILLO: Oh, yes. I mean he fled to Mexico. The U.S. Marshalls had to hunt him down. He has no re-Morse and he will do it again because he knows
he had gotten away with it.
PINSKY: And, yet, the mom gets away with a lot here too, does not she? She is out --
BLOOM: She is an accessory really.
PINSKY: She posted $75,000 bail. She is out now. According to an arrest affidavit before fleeing to Mexico with her son, she withdrew $30,000 from
her account. She told her husband, not going to see her ever again. She, that woman --
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Why is not she being as harshly -- what, prosecuted.
BLOOM: Well, she should be because -- if she is an accessory. I mean if all of these facts add up to helping somebody avoid the punishment that he
was sentenced to, absolutely.
But I do not agree, by the way, that a minor, no matter what horrific crime -- and this is absolutely horrific crime, should be getting life in prison
without the possibility of parole. I do not believe in that.
[21:50:00] MANUELIAN: He already has a deal set. He already has a deal set. All he needed to do was show up to the probation office. Even if he
messed up, he did not need to be violated. He made a bad situation worse.
Instead of staying where he was supposed to be put, he goes to Puerta Vallarta. He has a great grand old time down there. And, it is not going
to look in front of the judge. So, he did this to himself.
PINSKY: Is there any way, from a defense perspective, that you can blame the mom for all this? Like say that he was going -- he apparently was in
treatment. He was sort of participating. Then all of a sudden, mom gets involved and off he goes to another country.
MANUELIAN: Judge is not going to hear that. The judge is going to say, you are 18 now. You are a grown man. Mommy is not going to take care of
you. Mommy, stop coddling him. The judge is not going to care. Remember, this is Texas we are talking about. So, he is not going to get the time
over there.
SWANSON: They really are in two separate cases too. I mean I understand mom stepping in to protect her son. I totally get that. And, at some
point, she has been drawn in too deep.
PINSKY: Wait.
BLOOM: But this is not protecting.
SWANSON: No, no, no. I understand.
BLOOM: This is making it worse.
SWANSON: I understand the passion of standing behind your son -- What would you do? Get him to a country without extradition, things like that.
I totally get it.
BLOOM: You would that?
SWANSON: I am not saying I would do that. I am saying I understand the process, but those are decisions you make, too. And, when your kid goes
down, you are going to go down with him.
BLOOM: OK. But, you do not take him to Mexico. You can hire a good lawyer for your kid, that is how you can support him. Right?
SWANSON: Clearly, when you are throwing parties. But, I get how you stand behind your kid.
PINSKY: John Cardillo, I want you to keep an eye on this David Swanson guy.
(LAUGHING)
SWANSON: You will find me Drew at the local bar.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Well, maybe. But, I am so clear about these things. When people -- Listen, I have infinite compassion for people with their disease of
addiction and the consequences until they obfuscate their care and do things for which now it is time for them to pay. That is it. John, do you
agree with me?
CARDILLO: Yes. I absolutely agree with you and I agree with the others. The mom should have been arrested by the Marshalls for aiding and abetting
and absconding. He fled the country to get away with killing four people. Why is not she in jail right now?
PINSKY: Yes. She may leave again. I thought she is not a flight risk for herself. She made another El Chapo with this kid. Mom digs in. It is so
sick. It is so awful.
But, after we come back. What I want to do is play you some footage of a young man that runs a treatment center who actually was the head of the
program, where this kid was treated. And, you will hear what he thought about what was going on in his treatment and with this mom. Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking about Ethan Couch, the, quote, "Affluenza teen", so-called, who moved from a juvenile detention center today to an adult
jail. Now, I spoke with someone who was involved with his treatment as I said, who had testified at the manslaughter trial. Here is what he had
said in court. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMISON MONROE, TREATED ETHAN COUCH: he was brought up in a very traumatic household, that he witnessed physical abuse between his parents back and
forth, that he was himself a victim of emotional abuse and throughout his childhood. And, then he started to self-medicate with that at a very young
age
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, I beg your pardon. That is the gentleman, who runs the treatment program where he was treated on our program explaining the
history of the kid which, again, does not in any way mitigate or justify how this case has played out.
At the time of the accident, he killed four people. He was all ready suffering apparently from severe affluenza. And, again, David, the
affluenza included living in -- being 16 and living in a 4,000 square foot home with a wet bar, having no responsibilities. Poor baby. Poor baby.
And, what is up with the psychologist who gets up on the stand and use as term like affluenza? Forget the fact that if we excuse him of the
possibility that he qualified it as not a formal DSM-5 diagnosis, just the construct is offensive.
SWANSON: I cannot even imagine being on stand and thinking that, because how do I justify that to my peers? Other psychologists coming to me saying
how could you diagnose that? Look, the reality is that it should not matter affluenza, how you grew up. The fact is you are either competent or
incompetent to stand trial. And, if you did these things, you should be held accountable.
PINSKY: Yes. You, guys, Lisa and R.J., I wonder if you are as outraged as we are. I mean you see hired guns all the time in the courtroom. For us
this is like hard to imagine.
BLOOM: Yes. This is what I am going to say, I blame the judge, because you can get an expert witness to say anything in an American courtroom.
PINSKY: That is pathetic.
BLOOM: Anything.
PINSKY: That does not it bother you?
BLOOM: Not as respectable professionals like you guys, but judges usually know that. I mean I have a case where there was a ridiculous expert
witness for one side and, you know, the judge saw through it. We said, "Come on, judge." I mean judges know better. How did the judge allowed
it?
PINSKY: Cardillo, what do you say?
CARDILLO: I agree with Lisa. Look, thankfully, I think the judge is now retired. But, you got to look at the totality of the case. The kid had no
remorse. The Mom gets on the stand, looking like something the cat dragged in on a coke and bourbon bender, acting like she could not care less, and
this judge acts as if its Mother Teresa and the kid is the second coming to Jesus Christ and treats them with kid gloves. This is a mind blowingly
stupid decision by the judge.
PINSKY: Although, I got to say the defense lawyer here, R.J. has been a little quiet during this whole conversation. Is there a reason for that?
(LAUGHING)
MANUELIAN: Well, I can tell you kudos to the criminal defense attorney for the affluenza defense. I mean it is creative.
PINSKY: I knew it.
MANUELIAN: It is creative and it worked.
PINSKY: Lisa, I knew it.
MANUELIAN: Dr. Drew, it worked.
PINSKY: If you are dropping that bomb in the last 30 seconds of the show. It is creative and it worked --
BLOOM: Yes. It worked but it distorts out justice system.
PINSKY: Thank you. It is outrageous. And, the guy that said his license should be encumbered. That is all I am saying. Listen, you, guys, thank
you so much. Thank you for being part of the panel. Thank you, Claudia. Thank you, Cheryl for being here as well.
Please DVR this program and watch it any time. We appreciate you being part of this program. And, we will, in fact, appreciate you watching and
we will see you next time. Twww.vitac.com ?
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
