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Dr. Drew
Olympic Medal Winner Shot and Killed by Wife; Trial of the Century Now a TV Miniseries; Friend of Girl Murdered by Two Virginia Tech Students Speaks Out. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 10, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTPE)
[21:00:17] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, an Olympic medal winner shot and killed by his wife, but that is
not what she told 911.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JANE LAUT, WIFE OF DAVE LAUT, CHARGED WITH MURDER: Something was in our backyard.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: What is the person look like that was in your backyard?
LAUT: I did not see it, but there were shots.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): She has been charged with murder. Plus, the trial of the century is now a T.V. miniseries, what we are just learning about O.J.
Simpson and what really happened two decades ago. Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: New information tonight, 20 years after O.J. Simpson was found not guilty of the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. I want you
to watch this from the FX show, "The People Versus O.J. Simpson."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN TRAVOLTA, AS ROBERT SHAPIRO, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINISERIES: O.J., did you do it?
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINISERIES: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (1): The female is Nicole Brown Simpson. She is the property owner. The male is unidentified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER (2): A lot of blood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PAULSON, AS MARCIA CLARK, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINISERIES: She is practically decapitated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We are alleging special circumstances. We are also alleging the murder weapon was a knife. Mr. Simpson must face these
charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: We are told by the California Highway Patrol that O.J. Simpson is in that car, holding a gun to his head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON: I want you to tell everybody that I love them. Say good-bye for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE O.J. SUPPORTER: Hey, look, it is O.J.! That is O.J.!
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP OF O.J. SUPPORTERS: O.J.! O.J.! O.J.! O.J.!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNY COCHRAN, DEFENSE LAWYER OF O.J. SIMPSON: Something is wrong in this case. It just does not fit. It does not fit, you must acquit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me, Rolonda Watts, host of the podcast, "Rolonda on Demand." She covered the O.J. Case. Jane Velez-Mitchell, Author and
founder of JaneUnchained.com. She also was there every day covering the Simpson Trial.
Joseph C. Phillips, Actor and Sara Azari, Criminal Defense Attorney. Rolonda, you were there. You were there every day living this thing. What
do you think now when you watch this television show?
ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "ROLONDA ON DEMAND" PODCAST: I think it is amazing. First of all, I think they have done a fantastic job. And, it just brought
me back to that feeling, that time. It was such an unusual time and an incredible time to be a journalist.
That one story opened up so many things about society, from domestic violence to race relations, to justice, even to a new, iconic phrases like,
"If it does not fit, you must acquit." We saw new characters in the courtroom. And, we started talking, as citizens and as people who admired
this man.
PINSKY: And, Jane, do you still think there are people that done believe O.J. did it?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHEL, AUTHOR AND FOUNDER OF JANEUNCHAINED.COM: I guess there are a few, but that was the insanity of this case. It was the most open-
and-shut case you have ever seen. Literally, blood leading from the crime scene to the bronco, up O.J. is front steps, through his foyer, and into
his bedroom, where evidence was found on the socks at the foot of his bed.
And, yet we were told to believe that in the flash of an eye, all these detectives, some of whom had never met each other before, conspired based
on racial animus to frame O.J. Simpson.
When in reality, they bent over backwards because they were in awe of him because he was such a celebrity. That is why there was a slow-speed chase.
Because they allowed him to turn himself in when they would have arrested somebody else and just put them in cuffs.
WATTS: And, that is why you know he was not really seen as a black man, because he would have been shot if he was seen any other way.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But Joseph -- OK, breaking it down. But Joe, race did figure in here in a couple of ways. One is how the defense framed it. Number one,
the framed the framing, so to speak. And number two, they opened this miniseries with sort of echoing back to Rodney King, and that was in the
vapors. There was a time, a hope for a payback that an African-American man could make it through without getting an as Eddie Griffin said, an
asterisk after his name.
JOSEPH C. PHILLIPS, ACTOR: Well, I do not know if it was hope for a payback, but just a piggy back on what Rolonda said. It was not only a
great time to be a journalist, it was a great time to be a spectator, as you saw people on the streets, cheering O.J. on.
And, it did bring to light something that I think most Americans were unaware of, or knew kind of in the back of their head, which was that,
black Americans view the world very differently than white Americans, especially interactions with the police. And, this was something, I think,
that played out in the verdict.
WATTS: And, while that might have been a kind of facetious statement that I said, that is very much the case.
PHILLIPS: You are right.
[21:05:00] WATTS: O.J. Simpson was not looked at like a lot of the ways police officers looked at black men. And, that may be the reason why
Nicole is dead today, because of his celebrity status. And, it is also ironic during that time, that the very community that many felt that O.J.
turned his back on was the one community standing up for him.
PINSKY: The black community.
WATTS: The black community.
PHILLIPS: And, I think that is because the black community has been very aware of the disproportionate treatment of the police towards the black
community, towards everyone. If you are a celebrity, you get treated differently.
If you are white, you get treated differently. And, so when Johnny Cochran stands up and says, "There is this conspiracy." Black people said, "Yeah."
I believe that it is possible and especially then on the heels of Rodney King and all the cops setting off --
WATTS: And, because of that atmosphere, the jury was very much involved.
PINSKY: That is right. If the jury believes what Cochran is saying, that is all that really counted. And, the case as we are saying here, really
did become about race as much as it was about murder. Watch this now from FX.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): O.J. made his money, he split and never came back. He became white.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Well, he got the cops chasing him. He is black now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): O.J. is running because he is innocent!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (4): He is a black man being hunted by the police. They will pick you up for anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sara, and yet, it really was up to the defense to exploit those feelings, which they did masterfully.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I disagree. I think that the investigator was a racist pig.
PINSKY: Who are we talking about?
AZARI: I am talking about Mark Furhman.
PINSKY: Furhman.
PHILLIPS: Mark Furhman.
AZARI: The detective, I should say. And, the defense did a great job at poking holes at the horrible, shoddy investigation.
PINSKY: Well, clearly, they made it all about --
AZARI: Yes, but I mean you brought up the sock. I mean let us not forget, that there was EDTA on that bloodstain on that sock, which is only --
PINSKY: O.J. Hold on Jane.
AZARI: It was only present in a vial. I mean it takes us back to "Making a Murderer" and what happened to that vial of blood.
PINSKY: That is exactly right.
AZARI: And, so when the defense said the evidence was planted, I think they proved that some of this evidence was planted.
PINSKY: Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh my gosh. Are you actually saying to me --
AZARI: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- that you think O.J. did not do it? Are you actually saying that to me?
AZARI: I am not -- Jane, I am not --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because, seriously, let us issue a press release right now.
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: No. Jane, I am not saying O.J. did not do it, but I am talking about legal proof. I am talking about the evidence. I am talking about
the problems with the evidence. I hate when people say, you know, the race card. This is not a card game. This is reality. And, it is a reality
that African-Americans --
WATTS: Well, you are not facing reality if you do not think race played a big deal in this case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you for saying that. I was just getting ready to say.
AZARI: But, I think a white jury today would acquit O.J. because at that time, there was no say warns about how African-Americans were being treated
by the police.
PINSKY: Hold on. Wait. Jane, you disagree?
AZARI: Now, we have social media. Now we have --
PINSKY: I think Sara got a good point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There were the riots that had occurred two years earlier - -
PINSKY: Over Rodney.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody was very aware that there is police brutality, that there is excessive force used against the African-American community.
I certainly am not denying that. What I am saying is, this was not a case of that.
This was actually a case of a man, who got away with domestic violence for years. The police went to O.J.`s house eight times. They saw Nicole with
a black eye. In fact, as soon as her sister was notified of the death, she said, "He finally killed her!"
AZARI: And, that is true. And, that is why I think this case changed the way that domestic violence is prosecuted --
PINSKY: But Sara, are not you, as women, a little offended by this, too? To me, my heartaches when I hear that women were treated as some sort of --
sort of disposable property because it was a celebrity. There was a whole other sort of chapter going on that was aside from race, that was more
about sexism and racism.
WATTS: Dr. Drew, that is why it was so exciting at that time, to not only be a journalist, to be a talk show host as well, because we could bring up
issues like that. Because women were not really clear and not real sure about what domestic violence was. And, there were many people who were
victimized by their husband being a celebrity, whether he was the mayor in the town or a big attorney.
PINSKY: Let me show people the actual photos of the results of the domestic violence. Here it is. This is Nicole, how she appeared -- there
she is, when she had friends take pictures of herself. I do not think these were even police photos.
She trying to document what was happening to her, because she could not get satisfaction from law enforcement, because she was married to a god, a
celebrity. And, there is a whole sort of celebrity story here, too.
And, to think about the way the police are portrayed as treating O.J. During the investigation in this television show. As something like
special, that they had to treat him a different way. We are going to keep this going. We will keep this going.
Later on, I have an Olympic medal winner, another special man, killed by his wife. Was it murder? Defense? Why all the confusion in her 911
calls. You will hear them. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NICOLE BROWN, WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON: Can you get someone over here now? He is back. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: OK. What does he look like?
BROWN: He is O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: OK. Just stay on the line --
BROWN: I do not want to stay on the line. He is going to beat the (EXPLETIVE WORD) out of me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: What is he saying?
BROWN: What else?
[Shouting/Yelling in background]
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: All units, domestic violence at 325 South Gretna Green Way.
BROWN: Kids -- O.J.! O.J.! The kids are sleeping.
[Shouting/Yelling]
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Is he upset with something that you did?
BROWN: A long time ago. It always comes back.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCHRAN: From 1989 to now, there was never any physical violence between O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That 911 call was made by Nicole Simpson herself in 1993. And, some of what O.J.`s lawyer, Johnny Cochran, told the jury during closing
arguments, you saw right there at the O.J. trial.
[21:15:00] Back with Rolonda, Jane, Joseph, and Sara. And, joining me by phone, Harvey Levin from TMZ. Harvey was there covering Simpsons criminal
trial. Harvey, as I remember you were there every day, is that true?
HARVEY LEVIN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, TMZ: I pretty much lived at that courthouse, Dr. Drew, for a long, long time.
PINSKY: That is what I remember. And, I know you guys at TMZ are covering it and issuing various sorts of snippets of stories. As you sort of see
this television show now, what stands out for you?
LEVIN: Well, look, I mean, I think that, you know, it is a fairly realistic view with the major exceptions. I mean, look, what they are
doing -- I mean, it is obvious what they are doing, that the Kardashians are maybe one of the most famous families in the world right now. And the
producers are capitalizing this on this, so they are using this -- they are kind of showing it through the lens of that family. And, the family did
have some connection.
I mean, look, Kris Jenner was close, close friends with Nicole. In fact, Kris and Bruce went to Mexico two weeks before Nicole was murdered with
O.J. and Nicole, where O.J. was trying to salvage his relationship with Nicole. So, they were all together. Kris was positive from the get-go
that O.J. did it, as soon as she heard that -- she heard Nicole was dead.
And, there was conflict between her and Robert Kardashian, because she could not believe he was on his side. So, they are really highlighting all
of this, kind of overdramatizing the kids, just because -- let us face it, it is Kim Kardashian. But, you know, they are doing it through that lens.
PINSKY: The producers -- we have a footage from the courthouse, where Kris Kardashian says something, just like what Harvey is describing. I want to
-- Yes, here it is. Here is some real footage, actual footage of Kris Jenner outside the courtroom in September of 1995. And, listen to what she
says about, as Harvey says, her good friend, Nicole Brown Simpson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRIS JENNER, NICOLE BROWN`S GOOD FRIEND: It was so brutal that, of course, you know, you are shocked. You are always surprised. You never -- you
know, as much as she said, you know, "He is going to kill me." You know, you never really expect it is really going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Did she ever say that to you?
KRIS JENNER: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She said what?
KRIS JENNER: "He is going to kill me and he is going to get away with it."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Harvey, it is stunning to me that we have that footage. The other thing that is being portrayed in the film that I find surprising, and
this is, again, only rumor I heard, and I heard some very reliable sources, but that substances figured large into O.J.`s behavior.
That he was a man that was a loved figure, until the substances became part of his life. And, you see that portrayed in this film. What do you
believe about that piece of this story?
LEVIN: Well, look, I mean, there have been a lot -- there were a lot of stories circulating about what O.J. Simpson may have done at the McDonalds
that he went to an hour and a half before the murders. So, that is something that came up.
But, I have got to tell you, Dr. Drew. I know a lot of police officers in this town and I can tell you that some of them have told me, long before
Nicole Brown Simpson, they were going to the home of O.J. and Arnelle, the woman he was married to before, you know, because of disturbances,
shouting, all sorts of things.
And, they would go up there and, you know, they would try to calm things down, and they never really did anything, but, you know, his problem with
the women in his life is not something that surfaced in the last year or two of his life.
I mean, remember, the incident in 1989, where he beat the crap out of her on New Year`s day, you know, that was almost five years before the murder.
So, you know, this is -- I do not think you can say this is an issue of substance, shortly before the murder. I just do not think so.
PINSKY: Well, again, I am just wondering, just the out-of-control quality that we are seeing, and the fact that it is, a lot of prescription stuff is
being portrayed on the television series, I found that interesting, because that was something that has seemed been left completely out of the
courtroom, which I find interesting. Harvey, I am going to let you -- go ahead. Please.
LEVIN: I got to say. I think you are right that they are showing that. And, I do think it was a factor. But, you really do need to look at the
history and a lot of that -- look, I will tell you one quick story, because I know you are short on time. I owned a house that was sold to me by a
guy, who was very close with O.J. Simpson.
It turns out, I found out actually in the trial that in that house, and I am talking, in the `80s, O.J. Simpson, this is the only time that people
witnessed O.J. using violence against Nicole, you know, at that house. And, it actually came up in the trial. So, we are talking a long time
before the murders that O.J. Simpson was off the rails with her.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Yes, I -- yes, that makes sense to me. Thank you, Harvey, I really appreciate you being here. We will look for you on TMZ.
Anything you want us to promote?
LEVIN: Yes, can I really do that?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Go!
LEVIN: It seems weird. It seems weird.
PINSKY: If you are good enough to come on the show, you should be able to promote your stuff, as far as I am concerned. So, go ahead.
LEVIN: OK, I am going to do it. I am going to do it. We have got this show that we have produced called "South of Wilshire."
PINSKY: Oh, yes. The game show.
LEVIN: Which is a really fun game show.
PINSKY: The game show. I have seen it.
LEVIN: Yes.
PINSKY: Check it. It is only locally, though, is not it?
LEVIN: No, no, no. It is in like 15 cities around the country.
PINSKY: All right. Got it.
LEVIN: In New York, in Washington, Atlanta and Philly and L.A. And, anyway, it is on Monday through Friday. It is such a fun show.
PINSKY: It looks like fun. I have seen it. And, if that is what it takes to get you on here, we will let you talk about your stuff anytime. Thank
you for being here, my friend. We will talk to you soon.
(LAUGHING)
LEVIN: My pleasure, guys.
PINSKY: But, Sara, I got just a minute left. I saw you nodding your head vigorously during some of the stuff Harvey was saying. What are you
thinking?
AZARI: No. I mean, I agree. I think his history of domestic violence --
PINSKY: I think his substance history may have spanned all those year too. Who the hell knows about it?
AZARI: Probably.
PINSKY: Listen. It takes a lot of years to get out of control with substances to the point where you are violent like that. You are violent
to the point where you are murderously rageful, that takes many years. Would you agree with me?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I think he might be a sociopathic.
WATTS: Uh-huh.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that he had rage-aholic behavior as well.
PINSKY: What if he just had narcissism plus addiction? That is as good enough for me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen. I do not think that Cuba Gooding Jr. -- I think he has done a great job, but I do not think he captured O.J.`s arrogance.
I mean, O.J. was an incredibly handsome man with a chisel face, 6`2", 210 pounds. I saw him in person. I interviewed him briefly after his
acquittal and he radiates, not only charisma, but an arrogance that just seeps through every fiber of his being.
It was all about O.J. And, I do not know that this series, as brilliant as it is, captures that. What they do capture is the codependency and worm
behavior of Robert Kardashian.
PINSKY: Enabling.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Enabling and totally in denial.
PINSKY: And, the other thing, Joseph, everyone forgets. I do not want to get too deep into this, but O.J. had a tough childhood. He had a really
tough -- he was not in a good situation most of his young life.
PHILLIPS: Well, what I was going to say. That is true, but also, the life of an athlete, injuries, and then -- Especially during that time --
PINSKY: Head injuries. Maybe the head injuries had something to do with that.
PHILLIPS: And then being pumped with pain killers.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: That definitely has an effect. None of which is to excuse the behavior and the beating and ultimate murder by O.J. of Nicole and Ron
Goldman.
PINSKY: As I said, for me, there is a race story we got into that, but there is a sexism story here, and that cannot be dismissed. I think if I
were a woman, I would be frightened by this story, because the women were marginalized in this story. We will continue this after the break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON: This gun is for me.
CHRIS BAUER, AS DETECTIVE TOM LANGE, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINI SERIES: No, no, no. You do not want to do that. Things will
get better. You should just toss it out the window.
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON: No, no. I cannot do that. I got to be with Nicole. Yeah. That is all I am trying to do. I just cannot do it on
the freeway. I cannot do it in a field. I tried to do it at a grave. Now, I am just going to do it at home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was from the FX show, "The People Versus O.J. Simpson," 20 years after the not guilty verdicts. New information coming to light,
being portrayed on this television series. We are back with Rolonda, Jane, Joseph, and Sara.
So, Sara, you wanted to bring up something about the polygraph test that he underwent. We actually have footage about that. I am going to go right to
that. The lawyers submitted him to a polygraph test. Take a look at how it was portrayed in the miniseries. And, Sara, I want you to comment on
this. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BUTTLER, AS POLYGRAPH EXAMINER, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINISERIES: He scored a minus 24.
DAVID SCHWIMMER, AS ROBERT KARDASHIAN, IN "THE PEOPLE VERSUS O.J. SIMPSON" T.V. MINISERIES: Minus 24? What does that mean?
JOHN TRAVOLTA, AS ROBERT SHAPIRO: It is a flunk. It is the worst you can do.
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON: Of course I failed it! She just died! I am so emotional! Every time they mentioned Nicole`s name, my heart went
crazy.
JOHN TRAVOLTA, AS ROBERT SHAPIRO: All right. Calm on, do not worry.
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON: And these things do not work. These machines do not work. That is why we cannot use them in the courtroom.
What did they think was going to happen? You ask me that. Somebody say something.
I want to know what is going to happen. They are talking about the mother of my children dying and they are asking me these questions! Of course,
the needle is going to be jumping!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jane, there is that enabling behavior, again. But, Sara, you wanted to comment about the actuality of what moved the polygraph needle.
AZARI: Here is the deal. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this before.
PINSKY: From other criminals.
AZARI: Well, yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: From people you have been trying to defend with.
AZARI: And, it is like ehhhh -- No, everyone is stressed out when they are taking a polygraph exam. The people that are innocent are stressed out
because they want to make sure they pass and they could prove that their innocent. And, the people, certainly, who are guilty, are stressed out.
So, stress does not impact the outcome of a polygraph test, but nice try by O.J.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Now, Marcia Clark appeared on -- she is of course the prosecutor, appeared on ABC`s "The View" last week. And, she was asked about some
personal life issues. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAVEN SYMONE, ABC CO-HOST OF "THE VIEW" SHOW: You had the divorce that was going on and a custody battle with your two sons, if I am correct. How did
you not go crazy?
JOY BEHAR, ABC CO-HOST OF "THE VIEW" SHOW: Maybe she did.
MARCIA CLARK, LEAD PROSECUTOR IN THE O.J. SIMPSON MURDER CASE: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: You did?
CLARK: I really -- I just did not have time, really? I mean if I could have penciled it in, you know -- I can have a nervous breakdown next week.
But, I really -- I just literally did not. And, it is one of those things, I could not. I had to stay focused and so, it was kind of like, there was
no other choice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jane, we have all gotten to know Marcia over the years, right? We all know her very well. It is weird now to think of her as that junior
council back then, is not it?
(LAUGHING)
JANE-MITCHELL: Yes. And, she has landed on top. She has made millions writing books, but there was also an inherent sexism. She was regarded as
the B-word by women. So, I call that internalized suppression, when women turn against other women and feel, because they are being strong and going
after someone, therefore, they are the B-word. And she was also stymied.
[21:30:00] Remember in this case, there were big mistakes made. One of the reasons he got off, to your point, is that they had him try on the
gloves. Now, the gloves were blood-soaked. They have been frozen and unfrozen and he is wearing latex gloves underneath. Of course, they are
not going to fit.
PINSKY: Right.
JANE-MITCHELL: But, that played into the defense and allowed Johnny Cochran to say, "If it does not fit, you must acquit."
WATTS: "You must acquit."
PINSKY: Yes. He was brilliant. His use of language, his use of logic and blowing holes in things was brilliant. But, Joseph, during the break, you
mentioned something else you wanted to talk about.
PHILLIPS: I actually do not remember what I was talking about, but I do want to -- I do want to say this. As I am listening to this discussion,
because actually I am not watching the -- and I do not know if I should say that, but I am not watching the miniseries --
PINSKY: The television miniseries. Yes.
PHILLIPS: Because the original was so filled with drama. Listen to all of these characters.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: There was Judge Ito, Kato, the guy living in the back of the house. Then Marcia Clark -- and I am skipping names. But all of these
people became household names.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Some of them went on to radio shows, television shows, book deals, became stars in their own right. That was drama!
WATTS: Wait a minute. Maybe --
PHILLIPS: Right there.
WATTS: Maybe that is what got the Kardashians to become such a global -- you know, if you were around --
PINSKY: Rolonda, it was the first reality show.
WATTS: That is right.
PINSKY: And, it was playing 24/7. You forget, if you walked in a bar or restaurant, it was on the T.V. going all the time.
WATTS: That is right. I mean 9 million people were following it. Why should we be so surprised that the Kardashians are still such a reality
show. Maybe that started them off.
PINSKY: Joseph?
PHILLIPS: Business stopped when they read the verdict.
PINSKY: Well, now --
PHILLIPS: I remember trying to get my agent on the phone during that time. I had business to conduct, and no one picked up the phone!
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That is what I want to -- I just want to frame our conversation that way. And, remind ourselves that in a weird kind of way, I think it
helped us. As outraged as we all were, I mean where we are now, we are trying to understand these issues of race and how police treat some people
differently than others.
How women are treated relative to their spouses, domestic violence, substance abuse, all these things were unspoken issues in this country. It
blew it all open. Took us another 30 years to get to it. We are still talking about it, but it blew it out into the open. No, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it blew it like a hand grenade.
PINSKY: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, I think, unfortunately, it was the worst example. There are plenty of great examples of excessive force, conspiracy to nail
somebody who is innocent of a crime, bias against minorities. This was not the case. This was the polar opposite. So, I actually think it hurt us in
a sense because it was very racially divisive. It was absolutely the reaction was across racial lines. So, I think it set us back.
PINSKY: Yes. But you got to remember, it was in the shadow of Rodney King. That had just happened.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen. Let me tell you at the time of Rodney King, it was reportedly, allegedly, just a way to communicate, if there was
African-American home where there was domestic violence, the word over the radio was, NHI, "No Human Involved." There was all kinds of alleged racism
and even Furhman had been said by many of his counter police officers that he had a history of racism.
So it was the racism within the department, even within our own society, we had to take a look at. But most importantly, I do think it affected in a
positive way, the knowledge, the awareness, and the laws that affect domestic violence.
PINSKY: I think that is right. We have to leave it there. I thank you, panel. O.J. Simpson, just as a reminder, is currently in prison in Nevada
for armed robbery and kidnapping. He is allegedly up for parole a year from October. Ironically, he cannot watch this FX series, because it is
not on the prison cable system. They do not get FX.
Next up, a woman is on trial for killing her Olympic medal-winning husband. Why did she tell a 911 operator that an intruder was present in their home?
You will hear the call and you will hear the case, when we return.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Jane Laut could be locked up for life if she is convicted in the murder of her husband, Dave. The
Olympic medalist was found shot six times at their family home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMEEN MINOUI, SENIOR DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She raised that revolver to the back of his head and she fired that first shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Jane initially told police intruders killed her husband. Now, she claims years of physical and
emotional abuse drove her to kill the man she calls a monster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON BAMIEH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He is not the hero of the Olympics. He is the monster who abused her for 27 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Echoes of Jodi Arias, is not it there here? California housewife, Jane Laut, says a lifetime of abuse drove her to kill her husband. He was
an Olympic hero, Dave Laut. Back with Jane, Joseph and Sara. And, joining us, Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University.
The prosecution said Jane lured her husband outside in the dark and shot him in the back of the head. She says she shot her husband in self-defense
during a fight over a gun. Judy, another case of domestic violence, probably, yes, but I do not know about defense as the excuse for the
behavior.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right. She could have been a battered woman. That is very true. But, the circumstances do not point to
the fact that she was actually in a moment of self-defense. She walked up to him when he was just unwittingly walking into the yard and shot him in
the back of the head. There was no evidence of any kind of tussle. There was not anything actually happening, and she allegedly fired six times.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: I think he is probably dead.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Well, pretty morally --
PINSKY: But, the one to the back of the head would have been enough. Jane,
HO: I think so.
PINSKY: Jane. You are smiling, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just think that this is a ridiculous case again where the killer purports to be the victim. And, this is sort of what
happens today --
PINSKY: Jodi arias, right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is just like Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Except the defendant is not as attractive as Jodi Arias, so maybe she will not --
(LAUGHING)
[21:40:00] PINSKY: And, no sex tapes. We do not get the sex tapes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, nothing that she says makes sense. She said, "Um, well, my husband was asleep, and then he had been drinking heavily, and he
woke up, because dogs were barking, so he grabbed the gun" and said he is going to shoot her adopted child and "I am going to make you watch." That
does not make any sense.
PINSKY: Jane, you are an apologist for people who suffered domestic violence. And, some time, to the extreme, they have to go to extract
themselves. Can you apologize for this lady` behavior?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I do not apologize for her behavior. I do not believe her story for a minute. And, I do not even know that she is a victim of
domestic violence. I think she had a domineering husband, who always bossed her around. She got angry and she decided to get even.
PINSKY: On the night Dave was killed, Jane called 911 -- not this Jane. Jane Laut. She reported prowlers in her backyard. Have a listen to this
911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: What is the person look like that was in your backyard?
LAUT: I did not see it, but there were shots.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: You heard what?
LAUT: There were shots!
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: You heard shots being fired?
LAUT: Yes. My husband went outside --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: I want you guys to stay inside the house. How many shots did you hear?
LAUT: I do not know.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: You do not know what happened to your husband?
LAUT: He has not come back in.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: So, he went outside to take a look and he has not come back in?
LAUT: Yes, the one dog was growling at the window and --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: When your husband went out, had the shots already been fired?
LAUT: I do not know. He told me to come back in with the dog, with --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: How many -- How many --
LAUT: To make sure my son was OK.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: How many dogs are in the backyard?
LAUT: They are in the house. I put them in my son`s room.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Was he armed when he went outside?
LAUT: No.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, Sara, I do not need a polygraph, because I have the Human Lie Detector, Janine Driver. She is the author of "You Cannot Lie To me."
Janine, what do you hear in this call?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Oh, my gosh. I cannot wait to dive in. People at home watching Dr. Drew, better grab their pen and a piece of
paper. So, right out of the gate, she says, "I do not know." She does not know any information. She goes wishy-washy when she hears the shots, as
you continue to play the call, we will hear that again.
But, she says, "He told me to come back in with the dog." So, she should have said, what? "He told me to go back in." Come back in is a
disconnect. So, in statement analysis created by a guy named Mark McClish, we know immediately this is a deceptive hot spot and it gets deeper and
deeper. She says, "Um, make sure my son is OK." We often see this disconnect, instead of "Our son," she said, make sure "My son is OK."
PINSKY: Janine, anything about the pitch of her voice? The pitch makes me have a funny feeling when I hear her speak. Is there anything about that
that you read? Go ahead.
DRIVER: Well, Dr. Drew, you know this as a doctor. Everyone grieves in different ways. So, if, in fact, it was legit, some people get giggly,
they get nervous, and you know, some people get angry, you know. So, I always say anger is that secondary emotion from fear and sadness, that
anger pops up. So, here, not so much the tone and pitch. I do not think there is a definitive, although --
PINSKY: I will tell you, she sounded childlike to me in the pitch. And, whenever I hear that, I immediately get suspicious of all kinds of things.
I want to play, Janine, more of the 911 tape for you. Tell us what you think. Here we go.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LAUT: Hello? My husband? --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Yeah, can you see him out the window at all? I do not want you to go outside.
LAUT: My husband? I cannot see him. He is -- I cannot see him.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: You cannot see your husband?
LAUT: No.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Did you hear anybody talking at all before you heard those shots?
LAUT: I heard, just -- what -- I heard what -- wait, hold on real quick.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Jane, what is going on? Hello?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, she may be up to something there. But she also sounds very disassociated to me, like, she really -- there is something really
wrong emotionally here, do you agree?
DRIVER: Yes, she is having this conversation with herself. You know, she says, "My husband, I cannot see him, he is." and she stops. Start/stop
sentences are indicative of someone who is holding something back. And, so, we do see this with stressful people, but we also see a lot of
start/stops with convicted murderers, with people who are lying point- blank.
They will do start/stops, because their brain is saying, "Wait a minute, I need to create an answer here." So, they will do a pause, and then she
does it again. "I heard -- I just what -- I heard -- wait, wait, wait." Those are stalling techniques, techniques.
PINSKY: Joseph, you have something -- You have a question.
PHILLIPS: Well, I do not know whether she is telling the truth or not.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: But something about these types of cases really bothers me. It piggybacks on what Jane was talking about, which is that the victim never
has a chance to rebut any of the charges.
PINSKY: Yes, of course.
PHILLIPS: And, so here is this guy, an Olympic hero, dead, and now his character, his whole reputation is besmirched and he does not have an
opportunity to stand up and say, "Wait a minute, that is not how it happened."
PINSKY: Yes. Just like Jodi Arias and the family was suffering for that.
PHILLIPS: But, I do want to say. Let me just add this one thing. The other thing that is important is that this happened just a few miles up
north of here. California law, the lawyers correct me, is very tough. If you make a phone call, the police come out and all anyone has to say is,
there was this issue. Then he gets hauled away. So, I think it is very important, A. For women to know that they can call the police now.
[21:45:17] PINSKY: Yes.
PHILLIPS: That there are shelters, et cetera. And, the other thing is that, well, I do not believe, if she had called, we would have a record,
something of this guy --
PINSKY: Of a history of this.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
PINSKY: Sara, last thought, quick?
AZARI: OK. A battered -- if someone who is really suffering from battered women`s syndrome, and Judy and Dr. Drew, you know better than me, there is
a code of silence. They do not pick up the phone and report the abuse.
PINSKY: There can be a Stockholm Syndrome.
AZARI: Right. And, I am sorry, but you guys are convicting her at opening statement. There got to be evidence of, you know, I mean, for her to be
successful, to present a battered woman syndrome, defense should has --
PINSKY: We will follow it. I got to interrupt you. I got to go to break. Janine, thank you for helping us out here.
Next up, a girl whose friend was murdered allegedly by two students at Virginia Tech says she warned this little girl, you see right there, about
meeting people through the internet and what happens, of course, a tragedy. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Two Virginia Tech engineering students under arrest, charged in connection with the death of 13-year-old
Nicole Lovell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL, FATHER OF NICOLE LOVELL: These two individuals took my daughter from this planet and I want to know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Police say she went missing from her home and was stabbed to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David E. Eisenhauer on one felony count of abduction and one felony count of first-degree murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: David was involved in what they call an inappropriate relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Natalie Keepers was also involved, playing a part before and after the girl`s death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Nicole`s father is now speaking publicly about his daughter`s alleged killers. He was in the courtroom when Natalie Keepers asked for
bail and complained, poor dear, about jail conditions. Here is what he told Dr. Phil. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL: One of the reasons why she stated she needed bond was because she was not getting her gluten-free meals. I said that they had
cut her depression medication in half while she was in jail. I mean, what is the issue? She is in jail for murdering my daughter. I do not give a
damned how depressed you are. Good, be depressed. If I could have killed her with my eyes, I would have.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, PSYCHOLOGIST AND HOST OF "DR. PHIL SHOW": Does she get the gravity of what she did?
DAVID LOVELL: I believe that she has regrets, kind of, what she did, but they did not realize what they did when they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jane, gluten-free food, hypoallergenic pillows, and you have a reaction even just looking at the picture of this young lady.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When I look at the mug shots of these two suspects, college freshman, supposedly future leaders of tomorrow, they scare the
wits out of me. If you look at their expressions, they have no remorse. They are not scared. They are angry. They are defiant. They are
arrogant.
This is the tip of the iceberg. Something very demonic was going on, in my opinion. This is a very weak excuse for murder. In other words, it is a
weak motive. Oh, they were having -- Look at his face. Look at his face. That is a guy who is into something very dark.
PINSKY: Joseph, you are nodding.
PHILLIPS: No, I -- because I agree 100 percent. This is how I know that evil exists. That these two sat in a coffee shop and planned the murder of
a little girl. And, this story breaks my heart. The idea that she snuck out to meet the great love of her life, and she took her minions blanket.
She took her security blanket with her. She was a little girl. They ended her life way too soon. I hope they put them underneath the jail. This is
how I know that evil exists.
PINSKY: Sara, you going to stir us up?
AZARI: I am into the scar, because I think that could be very telling. The scar on Natalie Keepers` face, which the father also spoke about. I
think that the prosecution might be able to use this as some kind of a motive. We had talked about it earlier on the show, about how this might
be a love triangle between Natalie Keepers and Nicole and this guy. And, I think it is definitely a sign of struggle between the girls and the father
believes that his daughter --
PINSKY: They just have to look under her fingernails to see if that is there.
AZARI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Now, here is the dad again. Here is what he said when Dr. Phil asked him about David Eisenhauer. You will see him there in that picture.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LOVELL: I am sorry. It is hard to look at him.
DR. PHIL: How do you feel when you look at him?
DAVID LOVELL: I would like to be locked up in the same cell with him. I am pretty sure, I could get answers out of him. And, you know, he took my
little girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I have a strange feeling, Judy, that the girl -- what is the -- Natalie, the girl had more to do with this than we think. Do you agree
with that?
HO: I do.
PINSKY: I do not know what it is that I got that feeling that she was working that boy for something-something.
HO: Absolutely. We kind of see this in other situations, too, right? She is really the puppet master. And, I think that we have some signs. We
have some behavioral signs, and clips of what she said. Even in this moment, while she is in jail, her biggest concern is her gluten-free meal.
But, even before that, one of the things that she said why she participated before and after the murder was because she wanted to be part of something
extraordinary and special. Um, there are other things that you can participate in that are special, OK?
PINSKY: Um, by the way --
(LAUGHING)
HO: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Go to a concert. How is that?
HO: Yes. Exactly.
PINSKY: I am just saying -- and I am just saying stay with us, because we are going to close this up after a quick break. We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATASHA BRYANT, NICOLE LOVELL`S BEST FRIEND: I cannot believe she is not breathing, though, right now, that she is not living, because she was such
a free spirit. She told me she has been talking to a few guys named David, but there was one that she was like really, really into. I told her that
it is not safe and that she do not need to be talking to older guys, because she -- she might get hurt really, really, really bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So sad. That is Nicole Lovell`s best friend. She warned Nicole about talking to boys online months before these two murdered her. Judy,
it is a reminder that parents have got to know what kids are doing online all the time.
HO: All the time. Parents have to stay involved, engaged, interested in their children`s social media and online lives. And if they feel like they
need education, Cyberwise.org is a great place to get those tools. They should have all the kids` passwords and user names for anything that is on
their phone. That should not a negotiation.
PINSKY: You are not intruding when you observe and monitor what your kids are doing online. That is doing parenting in the modern age. Thank you,
everybody. Panel, great job.
I appreciate you guys. DVR us then you can watch this show any time. We all appreciate you watching. Tomorrow night we will have an audience on in
here tomorrow night. Please do check us out online, Facebook, Instagram.
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END.
END
