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Dr. Drew
A Teen With Autism Is Accused Of Killing His 14-Month-Old Brother By Deliberately Setting The Fire That Claimed His Life; A 17-Year-Old Boy With Autism Collapses In Court, Facing Murder Charges In The Death Of His 14- Month-Old Brother; Hot Car Baby Dad`s Wife Wants A Divorce After Their Baby Baked To Death In The Back Of His SUV; One Of Ross Harris` Former Friends And Defenders Is Not So Supportive Of Him Now; A Recording That Pits A Trooper Against A Man, Who Claims Racial Profiling; There Are About 40 Million People, Who Travel From The U.S. To Zika-Affected Areas Each Year
Aired February 11, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTPE)
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice- over): Tonight, a teen with autism is accused of killing his 14-month-old brother by deliberately setting the fire that claimed his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH MORGAN, MATTHEW MORGAN`S GRANDMOTHER: I stand by his innocence. I do not care what any of these people say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Plus, hot car baby dad`s wife wants a divorce after their baby baked to death in the back of his SUV. Let us get
started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Prosecutor saying hot car dad so-called, Justin Ross Harris, longed to be single and childfree. He got part of that. Well, he got all
of it now. Now, he may get his wish. His wife Leanna has filed for divorce. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Just how hot did it get inside this SUV? As 22-month-old Cooper Harris suffered and ultimately died?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He is accused of murder after leaving his toddler son in a car for seven hours in the broiling Georgia heat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Raunchy text messages, suspicious internet searches and a plan to kill his son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. PHIL STODDARD, COBB COUNTY POLICE DETECTIVE: Evidence has shown us right now that he has got this whole second life that he is living.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Even more bizarre, how witnesses say Leanna Harris reacted at the daycare when she was told that Cooper was
never dropped off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. STODDARD: In front of several witnesses, all of a sudden she states, "Oh, Ross must have left him in the car."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It is horrible. A tragedy and an accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me Sara Azari, Attorney who has handled similar cases in the past; AnneElise Goetz, Attorney also a mom; Mike Catherwood, My
"Love Line" co-host, KABC co-host, also a father; Vanessa Barnett, mommy blogger at StilettosandSippycups.com and Spirit, Psychotherapist, also a
mother of -- how many and counting?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING AND CHEERING)
Now, Leanna, the wife, filed a divorce saying that the marriage was irretrievably broken. No kidding. Two months from now, the husband will
stand trial or ex-husband will stand trial for the murder of their only son. AnneElise, does the divorce in any way hurt the defense?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: I do not think it hurt the defense. I think it is a brilliant move on the part of the mother, on the part of the
wife. This guy is not contributing to their household anymore. He has been -- probably having an affair on her. All these sexting messages come
up.
And, frankly, from a financial perspective she is dropping dead weight, because all he is doing is accumulating bills. She is the only
person bringing money into the relationship. She cuts it. She hits divorce and she starts to accumulate her own wealth a little bit. I think
it is smart. That guy made a fool of her and good riddance. Give it a go.
VANESSA BARNETT, MOMMY BLOGGER: I do not know if she made a fool of her.
PINSKY: Well, have you read what he has done?
BARNETT: I have read that. But, there is also mounting evidence that shows she could have played a part in this and that she is probably
dropping so-called dead weight because she does not want to get locked up after they dealt with him. I will say, because I know you all will be
probably rolling some tape, I was defending him for a minute there.
But, I mean, as it goes on, it is really hard to defend him. But, I do not think she is talking about bills and "Oh, he hurt me." I think she
is looking out for herself and she knows that she could go down with him.
GOETZ: She was talking about bills, though. When they were originally doing investigation and they were looking at the e-mails back
and forth, she was fighting with him over finances, over bills. And, then it turns out, he is sexting minors. Like that alone is enough to drop it
at that point in time.
PINSKY: Let us get into that, because this is really the crux of the case. We have new shocking messages from this hot car dad you have not
heard before. Detective found 40,000 -- 40,000 text messages on his phone. None of them from the wife, apparently. Many of them quite graphic.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. STODDARD: He says, "I want to see your hot wet (EXPLETIVE WORD). That morning he types (EXPLETIVE WORD) with a question mark and then,
"PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE," all caps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: In March, she asked him if he loves his wife. He said, yes, but I hate our relationship and I greatly dislike the
sex. He refers to himself as a sex addict, that he is addicted to sex and cannot get enough of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, I would say 40,000 text messages is getting towards addict, Mike.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S "LOVE LINE" CO-HOST: Yes. I mean.
PINSKY: 5,000 conversations on an app that is sort of like -- it is sort of -- it is called "Whisper" where no one can see what you are doing.
40,000 text messages --
CATHERWOOD: Well, that did not prove to be true.
BARNETT: Right.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I say -- and this is something that people do. I say this guy was so into his -- what we call a process addiction. People get
involved in internet, sort of preoccupation, they are texting and when you add porn and sex into that process addiction, people get profoundly
addicted. I have seen people walk into cars. I have seen people walk off, you know, cliffs. In this case, this guy left his son in the car. Mike,
do you think it is a possibility?
CATHERWOOD: I mean I definitely think it is a possibility. I just wonder -- I mean, because I will be honest. I have been that guy who is
like walking to a telephone pole or something.
PINSKY: And, you are not a process addict.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, but --
PINSKY: Well --
(LAUGHING)
[21:05:00] CATHERWOOD: I mean, do not we -- would not you think that there is a giant difference between, you know, accidentally walking into a
manhole and leaving your child in a car for seven hours. This is not in 20 minutes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: He probably walked into 50 manholes before you did something horrible like this. Sara, where do you come down?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is outrageous. I do not know what I would do with a case like this. It is a big challenge. But, I
know I am with Vanessa on this that the attention needs to shift to Leanne. Leanne is absolutely in on this.
First of all, we do not know who had access to those computers that he was accessing these sites from? Whose IP address is it? Maybe she was
accessing the computers. And, she as much as he wanted to be childless, because she and he both got life insurance on a baby. Who does that?
CATHERWOOD: oh, man.
PINSKY: OK. I got to remind you, we cannot substantiate all this. This is her professional -- Sara`s professional opinion. Leanne has not
been charged with anything. But, detectives do say --
AZARI: She should be.
PINSKY: She should have been?
AZARI: She should be.
PINSKY: OK. Detectives say Harris was involved in, as I told you, 5,000 conversations in this anonymous app called whisper. Look at this
conversation from the day Cooper died. Someone in the out posted, quote, "I hate being married with kids, the novelty has worn off and I have
nothing to show for it."
Then Harris responded, "I miss having time to myself and going out with friends." The original posted a response, "Yeah, I have nothing."
Harris replies, "My wife gets upset when I want to go out with friends. I love my son and all, but we both need escapes." Harris allegedly posted
those messages while eating breakfast with his son minutes before he would leave him in the car to die. Spirit, help me with this.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, see, at the end of the day, though, it does not say that he tried to kill him. You know, he says "I love my son."
But, as it relates to the divorce, Dr. Drew, I just cannot believe that it has taken this long.
Because forget the bills, forget that he is a dead weight, forget any of those things, "You killed our son." There is no reason for us to talk
about marriage beyond that. I cannot believe -- Forget all the extraneous stuff. Murder weighed on that.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes. Well, let us add it up. "You killed our son or you at least contributed to his death because you were busy sexting with a bunch
of women." And, by the way, complaining about me, the wife. He was sexting with multiple women while Cooper was suffering -- he was locked in
the hot car. Listen to this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. STODDARD: He was having up to six different conversations with different women. The most common term would be sexting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: Were photos being sent back and forth between these women and the defendant during this day while the child was
out in the car?
DETECTIVE PHIL STODDARD, COBB COUNTY POLICE: Yes. There are photos of his exposed penis, erect penis being sent. There were also photos of
women`s breasts being sent back to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: He is supposed to be working.
PINSKY: But, I am telling you, guys, it is no different than if he was shooting heroin or taking pills. It is an addiction. And, when people
are focused on their addiction, everything else suffers and consequences mount.
Next up, one of Ross Harris` former friends and defenders is here. She is not so supportive of him now. We will talk to her after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: Damning evidence, daddy sex texting six different women sending photos of his erect penis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Investigator said they had evidence this father and husband yearned to be single leading a sexually
charged double life with multiple women on the internet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: Were photos being sent back and forth between these women and the defendant during this day, while the child was
in the car?
DET. PHIL STODDARD, COBB COUNTY POLICE: Yes, there are photos of his exposed penis, erect penis being sent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Sexting even the day his son was dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. STODDARD: There were also photos of women`s breasts being sent back to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT BULLARD, T.V. HOST AND WRITER: I hope to God it was an accident. And, if it was not, I hope he burns in hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I see it is the consequence of addiction like so many addicts out there, they attend to the disease. They are being preoccupation and
everything else shrinks out of their life. In this case, he is losing not just his child, maybe his freedom, now his wife. The wife of Justin Ross
Harris has filed for divorce.
Ross, of course, charged with having murdered his 2-year-old son, having left him in a hot car to cook. He claims it was an accident. You
know, even if you think about the addiction part and if you want to explain it through the addiction, is that still an accident?
Once again, if you do not take care of these things when you have an illness and you do not take care of it and somebody dies, I say you are
still responsible. Back with Sara, AnneElise, Mike, Vanessa and Spirit. And, on the phone, I have a former friend of Ross Harris, Chris Wilkinson.
Chris, now, you used to defend Harris. Thanks for joining us.
CHRIS WILKINSON, FMR. FRIEND OF ROSS HARRIS: I did at first. Thanks for having me, by the way.
PINSKY: You bet. And, what changed your mind? What is it you are thinking now.
WILKINSON: Well, obviously, when the original allegations came out during the arraignment that was difficult. And, then, as the immiscibility
hearings happened last month and some of the statements that were made to police shortly after Cooper`s body was found, you know, it is pretty
indefensible at this point. Do not you think?
PINSKY: Was there something particular that caught your attention?
WILKINSON: Well, the fact that he allegedly stated that when they told him that they were charging him with murder that, you know, "What do
you mean, I had no malice." You know, you are a father. You have kids, Dr. Drew. You just lost your child. Is that going to be the first thing
that comes to your head? No.
PINSKY: Chris, you would be tearing your eyeballs out.
WILKINSON: Absolutely.
PINSKY: You have been dashing my head on the ground. I would not know what to do with myself. The pay would be --
WILKINSON (INAUDIBLE) with the police offices, you know. I am just saying.
PINSKY: Yes. And, did you know about this sex addiction and all these business? Had you ever heard of that?
WILKINSON: No.
PINSKY: No.
[21:15:00] WILKINSON: None of us -- None of us did. And, we all thought that, you know, he was a good church-going family guy and that
Cooper was everything to him. Obviously, that was an incorrect assumption.
PINSKY: All right, Chris, I appreciate you joining us. And, we will stay in touch if you have any more insights into this. The detectives
involved in this case had contacted some of the women, Ross had been sexting. Here is what they said. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: Did not she in fact confirm that the defendant had admitted he had cheated on his wife before.
DET. STODDARD: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: The defendant said he had problems in his marriage with Leanne Harris, but he would not leave her.
DET. STODDARD: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: Did he also attempt to meet up with her to engage in sexual relations outside of his marriage.
DET. STODDARD: Correct .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROSECUTOR: Did you find evidence, just for instance, that he said -- the defendant said, if not for cooper he would
leave Leanne?
DET. STODDARD: That is correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sara, I think you would defend this guy, would not you?
AZARI: Well, that is my job, but it is very difficult. This is a challenging case. I agree with his friends. The statement that he made is
so horrific. It is like saying, you know, "I did it," in other words. And, "However, I did it without malice."
PINSKY: And, Spirit --
AZARI: It is legal jargon.
PINSKY: Well, it is legal jargon, but Spirit, it is sort of narcissistic grandiosity, is not it?
AZARI: Right, but --
SPIRIT: Absolutely. Because, when it says is, "You know what?" --
PINSKY: I am not a whore.
SPIRIT: "I am so far ahead of you."
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: "I even know how to use the right language." And, it is really disgusting when he says that. This is the ultimate amount of
malice. You let a child bake in a car for a long period of time. If you had no malice then at least get it over quickly as a father. What are you
thinking here?
PINSKY: Yes. I just do not feel that --
SPIRIT: It is disgusting.
PINSKY: I do not think there is any way this was premeditated. There is just no way. I mean it is just so --
SPIRIT: No. Listen.
GOETZ: But the Google searches --
SPIRIT: Are you kidding me?
GOETZ: Who is searching hot car deaths of kids? I am a mother. That is the last thing I would do on internet.
PINSKY: What if he was having --
GOETZ: Come on!
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Listen. He clearly was not doing well with his wife. What if she was saying, "You seemed so distracted. You left the kid on the car
at the Target. You are going to leave him, he is going to die in the car." They may have been fighting about that for all we know. "And, I will show
you."
GOETZ: And, he got to see if it is real?
PINSKY: Yes, I will tell you how long it takes.
BARNETT: But, then she Googled it too. Why is everyone in the house Googling how to kill a baby.
CATHERWOOD: Who even -- honestly, who in their right mind. I have trouble watching, you know, scripted films about children being harmed.
PINSKY: I know.
CATHERWOOD: Who in the right mind -- Let us say in some wild circumstance that he was just doing it to show her? Who does that? Who is
going to Google, "Hot car kid death."
AZARI: Who gets life insurance on a baby?
PINSKY: Yes. Not a good guy. Not a well dad.
CATHERWOOD: Listen. I Googled hot car dad in order to research the story. And I ended up getting hot car old dad. Something is very
different. So, everybody, be very careful.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I want to go out to the audience. Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I want to know why he is on trial. There are women locked up today because of negligence, because they
left the kid in the house for maybe an hour or so and someone found them. Why is he on trial?
PINSKY: You mean why is he --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Send him to jail.
BARNETT: He is there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: He did it. He killed a child. The child is in the car. Why are they asking any questions? Screw the
texting, screw the sexting, he killed a kid.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Le us listen -- Go ahead, Sara. Go ahead, answer her.
AZARI: The difference between this case and the usual cases of child endangerment is that this kid died, OK? And, this guy is going to go away
for the rest of his life. So, the stakes are a lot higher --
PINSKY: And, they are trying to show --
AZARI: -- from the defense perspective. It is the rest of his life.
PINSKY: But, they are trying to show premeditation, too. Right?
AZARI: Right. But, again -- and I have been thinking about that. And, what jury is going to buy that you completely forgot that you left
your child in the back of a car? It is really hard to sell that story.
GOETZ: You know, what is interesting, though, I remember when the story first came out and a lot of people came forward and said -- Sunny,
actually, one of the legal analysts that we see a lot on CNN, "I have done this. This has happened to me." This is what she said.
PINSKY: Sunny Hostin. She did it.
GOETZ: So, people have said, this has happened, and it is an accident. And, I think that a jury could believe certain aspects.
AZARI: After seven hours?
GOETZ: But the problem is he is turning into a whole -- there is a whole second side of him. All of his friends -- Friends that think he is
this God-fearing man, excellent father, excellent husband, all of that fabric is being torn away. And, that is where I think they are going to
get him.
PINSKY: But, remember Jodi Arias when -- I forget the boyfriend`s name. Help me.
BARNETT: Travis.
PINSKY: Travis. Travis Alexander, there were sort of pulling apart his reputation. This reminds me of that, where somebody seems like one
thing on the outside and in the inside, they have an underbelly that is not so pretty.
AZARI: But are not sex addicts -- I mean, you know, I am not the expert on sex addicts.
PINSKY: Go ahead, ask.
AZARI: But is not that -- I feel like that is a very hard addiction. And, it is also very covert.
PINSKY: Yes.
AZARI: It is not like being an alcoholic or even a functioning alcoholic. Sex addicts -- actually, they are very successful and they are
outside is amazing and inside it is this stuff. I mean, they are killing their kids because of their sex addiction.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
BARNETT: But, sex addiction does not always leave to murder. I feel like, this is rare.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: No. But, her point is that the sex addicts were so deeply ashamed of what they are doing. They go to great length not just
to keep it secret, but to leave a certain kind of life to makes them appear like something opposite than what they are as compensation for the
horrible, horrible desperate shape but they do not do anything about it.
CATHERWOOD: How do we know his penis was erect in those pictures?
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Next up, a teen --
SPIRIT: You want to see them, Mike?
CATHERWOOD: Maybe.
PINSKY: Spirit, do not even challenge him that. Next up, I got a teen with autism, whom you are seeing there is sentenced to 15 years in
prison for having started a fire that killed his baby brother. Too harsh? Appropriate. We will get into it. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 17-year-old boy with autism collapses in court, facing murder charges in the death of his 14-month-old brother.
Matt Morgan was babysitting when a fire broke out. The baby died and prosecutors say the teen is to blame. They claim he was fascinated by fire
and purposely started it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[2125:08] WILLIAM KELLER, SPECIAL AGENT AT SOUTH CAROLINA LAW ENFORCEMENT: It has never been my experience that somebody would
accidentally set a fire in a room with a 14-month-old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: But, the teen`s family insisted the son is innocent. They say investigators coerced a confession.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: New tonight, 17-year-old Matt Morgan, whom you saw in those pictures has accepted a plea deal that will send him to prison for 15
years. And, you saw the anguish on that young man`s face. His parents insist their son with autism is innocent, the confession coerced. Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE HILL, MATTHEW MORGAN`S MOTHER: Our son was in there with two large police officers with guns, with their scary faces in his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MYKE HILL, MATT MORGAN`S STEPFATHER: An hour or so with me, I can have him saying any story I want him to and I am his dad. So, how is it
going to be for him with three comes with guns?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE HILL: He feels horrible that, that this happened to his brother. He cries every time he thinks about it. He said in the
courtroom, that was his best friend. There is no way he would hurt him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very sad story. Back with Sara, AnneElise, Mike, Vanessa and Spirit. And, Vanessa, you got some more background for us.
BARNETT: Yes, Dr. Drew. So, the fire that killed the baby happened last March. And, Matt Morgan initially told police he was asleep when the
fire started. But, during a follow up interrogation with investigators, he changed his story several times.
Then, ultimately, he stated that he started the fire. And, then the interrogation lasted for five hours. And, that was when his parents, you
know, obviously, got very upset and they say the confession was forced.
PINSKY: This sure reminds me of the "Making a Murderer."
BARNETT: Does not it.
AZARI: Brendan Dassey.
PINSKY: Brenda Dassey.
AZARI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And, that kid was higher functioning than this one. Branden Dassey was in a higher cognitive level. He is less autistic than this kid.
Is it appropriate? You, guys, have interrogation experience. Is this proper behavior?
AZARI: Absolutely not. The cop -- And, you know, I think when I kept reading his criticism of the cops that they did not have the parents
present. Forget the parents. They need a lawyer present. The cops have a duty to protect this kid`s constitutional rights. They can see that the
kid is off. He is off. We can see it.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: It is in South Carolina. And, they do not require to -- AnneElise, they do not record the interrogations in South Carolina, either.
GOETZ: Yes.
BARNETT: That blows my mind.
GOETZ: They do not record them. And, you know, that happens in handful states in across this country. That is sort of a new thing, moving
toward recording them. Everyone is talking a lot about the confession. And, whether it was gained appropriately or not. I think that this case
has a lot more evidence that people are kind of glossing over that shows this guy did commit this crime.
PINSKY: Why?
GOETZ: So, you look at the fact of -- it is arson. The police are saying, we have arson. We have a candle that was lit in the room and was
placed directly next to a space heater in one room. And, then ten seconds later, another fire was lit in the living room. And, it was placed right
next to the space heater to make it look like they were space heater fires, but they were not once the investigation occurred.
There is only one person that lived through that. That is the guy that we are talking about. He is the obvious suspect. You take out the
confession and you still have him as the only person there. He has admitted to playing with fire. He set a fire in the house earlier that
week. This guy sets fires and as a result his son -- his brother died.
PINSKY: But, him setting fires and him intending to kill his little brother, those are different --
BARNETT: It is totally different.
GOETZ: He took intentional. He took unintentional -- involuntary manslaughter.
AZARI: Involuntary manslaughter.
PINSKY: Spirit, help me out.
GOETZ: Involuntary manslaughter.
PINSKY: Spirit, Spirit, you work with autistic patients and autistic kids. How do we help people understand?
SPIRIT: Yes. It is burning me up, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: Because, you know, to hear this, they are talking about this case like this is an average healthy adult mind. This is a child, first of
all, and he is autistic. So, the idea that he started a fire, if you know anything about autism, if you know about focus, if you know about being
zoned in on one thing, exhibiting aggressive behaviors, all of those things that happen with an autistic child, especially where he is. And, so, when
I hear that this unfortunate situation has happened and this kid gets 15 years, I am so pissed not at the boy but at his parents.
GOETZ: Right.
SPIRIT: Because it never should have got to this point. Why did not his parents leave this special needs young man in charge of an infant?
Whatever he gets, Dr. Drew, his parents should get double the amount of time.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: They are going to get none, right?
GOETZ: No. I have not heard about charges against them.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
GOETZ: I want to bring up the point that, we are talking about his mental faculties. We have defenses. We have affirmative defenses in this
country for the mentally disabled. Those were not brought to the table. The defense attorney --
PINSKY: Why not?
[21:30:00] GOETZ: Because the defense attorney did not -- he never brought up any affirmative offenses of mental disability, or insanity, that
he did not understand that killing somebody is crime.
(CROSSTALKS)
BARNETT: That does not mean the boy should suffer.
SPIRIT: This young man has been grossly under served.
BARNETT: Exactly.
SPIRIT: And, that is the problem is that there are too many people in America, we still have not had the mental health conversation. And, there
are too many people making decisions about unhealthy minds that do not understand what it means to have a mental health issue. That is part of
the problem here.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Let me go to the audience. Yes, ma`am. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. I am actually in the mental health field as well. So, Spirit, thank you for bringing all that up.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say. You know, the public really - - Anyone in that courtroom needs to be educated on autism.
And, I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you. I do not think there is any intent there at all. Someone with autism may not -- some of
them are very intellectual, but I do not see him being able --
PINSKY: He may have been focused on the fire and not even realized he was in a house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Where those space heater proximity might have been something weird symbolic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: Or who knows what he is thinking. You cannot use a normal brain to understand, you are otherwise normal or otherwise not bright or
healthy brain, I guess we would say, to understand or even think in terms of what this kid might have been thinking at the moment, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly. And, Spirit, again, thank you for bringing that up about his parents. Where the hell are his
parents?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, I will tell you what.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: We were just talking about child abuse here.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: The parents are completely responsible here, leaving their autistic 17-year-old child with another
child? Was he babysitting?
PINSKY: Yes. They knew --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is completely inappropriate.
PINSKY: He was babysitting, quite, literally. And, his parents knew he had a learning disable, that he struggled to read, write, understand
commands even. And, so, this is inappropriate way to think about this guy. My question is why did not they, Sara, bring in what AnneElise is talking
about?
AZRA: But the parents -- Are you talking about the parents` liability?
PINSKY: No. I am asking --
GOETZ: Why they are not using it as a defense?
PINSKY: Why did not they bring in -- what you call it, affirmative?
GOETZ: Affirmative defense.
PINSKY: Affirmative defense.
GOETZ: That he did not have the mental capacity to actually --
BARNETT: Are you talking about a legal insanity defense?
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: No, no. He is not insane.
GOETZ: Well, not insane, but like to the extent, did he have the faculty to know right from wrong when he was doing this? Did he know the
result of his actions?
PINSKY: I will hold you there. Did he know right from wrong? We will take a break. We will keep it going.
Later on, racial profiling or something else? We will show you dash cam recording, there it is and what it reveals. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Matt Morgan sank to the floor before leaving the courtroom saying softly that he wanted his mother. Outside,
she was horrified, accusing police of intimidating her autistic son into a confession.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: 17-year-old Matt Morgan first told deputies on March 6th, he was babysitting his baby brother, woke up from a
nap to flames and could not save the 14-month-old. Well, the teen`s parents say Morgan has developmental delays. The court found him
competent. The taped confession does not exist. South Carolina does not require investigators to record interrogations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Morgan`s grandmother was blunt in his defense.
DEBORAH MORGAN: I still stand by his innocence. I do not care what any of these people say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, he will spend the next 15 years in prison. Prosecutors say the teen admitted he has a fascination with fire. Does that mean he
intentionally did this? Back with Sara, AnneElise, Mike and Spirit. And, joining us, Robyn Wisinski. She has a 13-year-old son, himself, with
autism. And, you wonder why the parents -- why Matt was left alone with the baby brother.
ROBYN WISINSKI, MOTHER OF SON WITH AUTISM: I guess if there is any part of me that questioned any part of this, it would be that. But, this
is also a kid who clearly loved the little brother. And, that news came from the step-father. Anybody is going to be critical of this. It is
going to be the stepfather who was the father of the baby.
PINSKY: How about the five-hour interrogation, do you think that was appropriate? Imagine your child, five hours with a nice -- forget the big
mean cops.
WISINSKI: Heartbreaking, because those are the people who you have taught your child, especially your kid on the spectrum that they are your
protectors, the police officers, the teachers. They are going to protect you. So, how easily he could be intimidated and swayed to say anything in
that room and no one has any record of it.
PINSKY: So, before the break, we were talking about the defense not, AnneElise, not bringing in, what do you call it, affirmative defense.
GOETZ: Affirmative defense.
PINSKY: And, there is a giant difference between insanity, legal insanity and having an intention that you can prove in court that you mean
to do something cognitively that results in somebody`s demise, or that you were, what? Negligent and it resulted.
How could you say that with severely autistic young man? How can they even -- what is wrong with the defense if they did not bring that all that
in, have experts in there, anything?
GOETZ: So, someone like you would go in and be an expert, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: When you look at autistic children, do you think that they -- on a spectrum, do they understand if I do this, this will be the result.
PINSKY: No.
GOETZ: This right and this is wrong.
PINSKY: Often not. Robyn, help me here?
WISINSKI: Absolutely not. That ability to reason has to be taught in really discreet situations. And, then if you are lucky, it generalizes to
other things.
PINSKY: Because they can hyper focus, right?
WISINSKI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: He maybe hyper focused on the candle and the heather and not realized he is in the house.
WISINSKI: Yes.
GOETZ: Here is the problem. What the prosecutor was doing, as the prosecutor`s job is to protect the public. It is to protect everybody in
this room. That is the prosecutor`s job. She or he brought this because this gentleman burned down their house.
My best friend lives in South Carolina. Maybe the next house he burns down is that house. So, we have people. He is someone that has his
fascination, maybe he does not understand right from wrong and there may be an issue with, is it a safe place for this guy to be out?
[21:40:00] PINSKY: Spirit, what do you say?
SPIRIT: So, if the prosecutor`s job is to protect the public then who is protecting this little boy?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Because he is a victim in this situation, too. And, the idea that he is laying on the courtroom floor in a ball begging for his mother knowing
to some degree that he has killed his brother, who is the real victim here in this situation? And, why is not that victim --
GOETZ: But, the baby that is dead is the real victim.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, sir?
SPIRIT: No. There are multiple victims here. I am so sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I had just a question. I mean who is the defense? Is it a public defender or is it an actual attorney?
GOETZ: He is a public defender.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: All right. That kind of makes a little bit more sense.
PINSKY: Meaning --
AZARI: Well, let me defend public defenders.
PINSKY: Hold on. Let me make his, sort of, innuendo explicit. He could not afford an adequate defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I understand that. But, there could have been somebody to take the case pro-bono, legal clinic, I mean or
something, because he needs more of a defense than just what the public defender is trying to do.
PINSKY: And, you can go ahead and defend the public -- hold on. But, same thing happened to Brendan Dassey, did not it?
BARNETT: Yes.
PINSKY: Looks like to us, the public was being protected by the prosecutors. It looks like they did not --
CATHERWOOD: And, you made the connection to "Making a Murderer" in the last break. And, that is why I lost interest in that documentary
series, because I was saying, "Well, here is a poor, uneducated family that does not have the ability to mount sufficient defense." That is every day.
PINSKY: OK. Sara, defend the public defenders.
AZARI: Yes. I mean, public defenders, there is so much bad -- you know, they are thrown under the bus. They are called public pretenders.
But they are great lawyers, some are excellent, smart lawyers.
The problem is lack of resources. You get what you pay for, you know, the saying goes. And, public defenders have tons of cases, a private
attorney like me will have a fraction of their cases. So, I can pay more attention and spend more resources on each and every one.
CATHERWOOD: It is seemingly very philanthropic thing to do to defend the public.
AZARI: Sure, to the best that they can, but --
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Knowing that this kid was autistic and he had a fascination with fire, why were not the parents held
responsible for his actions? Because I think they should be charged with manslaughter charges.
PINSKY: For his access to fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Let us ask the parent. Robyn?
WISINSKI: Can I address that. I think people underestimate what parents of kids with autism go through. The pressure. It is almost like
PTSD sometimes, because their lives and their days are so unpredictable. This is not a family who is accessing resources.
PINSKY: Yes.
WISINSKI: It is from what we have heard in talking about a public defender.
PINSKY: Yes.
WISINSKI: So, it is not fair to say that you, well, you should have done this. I think some tragedies are just that -- they are tragedies.
Does someone have to be punished for a tragedy? Who does it protect by putting this kid in prison?
GOETZ: Potentially his neighbors.
PINSKY: Last thoughts.
AZARI: And, also, for the parents to be criminally liable, it has to have been foreseeable that this would have happened. Where is the evidence
that this has happened before, that they have placed the child in danger. And, they know he loves fires. He is a teenager. Every boy loves fires.
PINSKY: Blah, blah, blah. If your teenager loves fires -- Spirit, back me up. If your teenager loves firs, call Spirit.
(LAUGHING)
SPIRIT: They need to be in my office. That is right.
PINSKY: Yes. Exactly. I am with you on that. But Robyn, thank you for representing parents. I do appreciate it. Thank you, panel. Next up,
we have got a recording that pits a trooper against a man, who claims racial profiling. I will show you that footage after the break. We are
seeing a piece of it right there. We will show it to you after the break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: You do not have anything on you that you should not have?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE OFFICER: No? No knives or weapons or anything like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (on camera): The encounter happened around 5:30 in the evening, January 7th. As Orson Titus says he was
walking home from the public library.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): In this city council meeting last week, Titus who goes by the name of Toussaint St. Negritude
tells them he feels he is a victim of racial profiling. He claims the state trooper held him for half an hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ORSON TITUS, "TOUSSAINT ST. NEGRITUDE", CLAIMED HE HAS BEEN A VICTIM OF RACIAL PROFILING: If anyone has any reason to -- have any doubts about
me and the questioning, feel free. But not for half hour, not with your hand on your gun, not with a spotlight in my face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): State police posted this dash cam video in which you can hear the encounter, which only lasts five
minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH FERLAND, STATE POLICE TROOPER: When you are walking on the roadway and there is no sidewalk, you have to walk against traffic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That happened in Maine where state police say the trooper followed what is called standard procedure. Back with Sara, AnneElise,
Mike, Vanessa, and Spirit. Vanessa, you think that was profiling?
BARNETT: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Not profiling.
BARNETT: It was not. And, you know me. I go hard to pay for my people.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That is why I asked you this.
BARNETT: I am sorry.
PINSKY: Spirit disagrees. Spirit thinks it is profiling.
BARNETT: Negritude is wrong. You cannot even tell if he is black or white when she is pulling up. I heard the conversation. She is asking him
just walk on the other side of the road. She is not beating him with a Billy club.
She did not hold him for a half an hour. There was not any racial slurs thrown. There was not any aggravated anything in that conversations,
like "Please, I would have hit you. Walk on the other side of the road."
PINSKY: Let us watch a little more of the tape, the dash cam video. And, then Spirit, we will have you react. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FERLAND: Where you headed to? You have any knives or weapons or anything like that on you? I did not the even see you when I was coming up
behind you. Do you have I.D. on you? When you are walking on the roadway and there is no sidewalk, you have to walk against the traffic. It is hard
to see you with the dark clothes on. Where are you coming from?
NEGRITUDE: (INAUDIBLE)
[21:50:00] FERLAND: OK. You do not have anything on you that you should not have?
NEGRITUDE: No.
FERLAND: No? No knives or weapons or anything like that? So, yes, I just wanted to make you aware that, you know, I could not see you coming up
behind you. And, if I had been a little bit closer to the side of the road, I feel like I might have clipped you.
NEGRITUDE: I appreciate it.
FERLAND: Have a good night and be safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, that was that. Spirit, do you still think there was profiling there?
SPIRIT: No. You know, I never have. And, the thing about this is he says there is a whole half an hour and then where are the other 25 minutes?
(LAUGHING)
I mean let us just be real. And, I think that we have to be real and I think, you know, it is important even for folks of color to be able to
have this conversation as well, Dr. Drew.
BARNETT: Yes.
SPIRIT: Because we have to acknowledge that not every situation in America is about race.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
SPIRIT: And, while we are in this hyper racial society right now while everything is being heightened, we have to make sure that we are
being responsible about these cases. Otherwise, real profiling gets undermined.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: Absolutely.
CATHERWOOD: I will speak up for Mr. St. Negritude in one way and that is --
PINSKY: Mike --
SPIRIT: Negrotude.
PINSKY: Whatever you say next --
CATHERWOOD: How dare you?
PINSKY: You really want to say it, whatever is going to come out your mouth?
SPIRIT: Think about it.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, because I mean there is a chance that the police officer was just shocked to see a black guy in Maine.
PINSKY: OK.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
CATHERWOOD: I mean, it got to be like seeing like Moby Dick or something. Whoa! Are you kidding me? Wow!
(LAUGHING)
SPIRIT: She did not even know he was black until he turned around.
BARNETT: Right.
SPIRIT: What she saw was somebody dressed in black that she almost hit.
PINSKY: That is right.
SPIRIT: And, basically, she educated him. She said, "Hey, listen. Heads up. When you are walking out here, you have to be walking against
the flow of traffic. I almost clipped you. I really did not see you until the last minute. She saved his life. But he goes back and complained.
PINSKY: I agree.
BARNETT: And, he said he appreciated it.
PINSKY: He did and I agree. Because the serious transgressions cannot wither under the weight of everything being unequally problematic.
It is good conversation, you, guy.
Next up, the Zika virus. Giving you an update. We will talk to the audience, taking their questions. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: We will undoubtedly see many travellers returning to the U.S. with Zika.
There are about 40 million people, who travel from the U.S. to Zika- affected areas each year.
Many of those will come back with Zika. If it is like Dengue or Chikungunya in the past, we will see hundreds or thousands of travelers
returning to the U.S. And, unfortunately, some of those individuals will be pregnant women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Dr. Thomas Frieden, Director of the Centers for Disease Control. Now, he is talking about chikungunya and dengue, which
are acute severe illnesses we now see in the southern states of the United States and in to the Caribbean. But, those really makes you sick. Zika
does not typically make you sick, but it has a dire effect on pregnant women. Vanessa, you have a question?
BARNETT: Well, I am pregnant. I do not know if you --
(AUDIENCE CHEERING AND APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Right.
BARNETT: This is terrifying. It is terrifying. I do not know what news to believe, what not to believe. Can I travel? Can I stay in the
states? Where can I go?
PINSKY: You can stay in the states. The mosquito that carries, that transmitted is something called, the Aedes Egyptae. There have been no
transmission from mosquito here. First trimester pregnant woman like you got to really be careful. So, do not travel. That is clear. And, they
may even test your child at the time of delivery.
BARNETT: Really?
PINSKY: There is a lot of attention being given on Zika with pregnant women.
BARNETT: So, no baby mom. Thank you.
PINSKY: Sorry. No baby mom. Not in the caribbean. You can go north to Canada.
GOETZ: You know, I have a child a year and a half. I have been through ultrasound through ultrasound. When can they start picking up?
When can they detect the symptoms that you may have an issue?
PINSKY: It is first trimester. Again, if you have the microcephaly, which is a dreaded complication that is in the brain.
GOETZ: That is what it is. Is there more than just that?
PINSKY: That is really it.
GOETZ: OK.
PINSKY: That is the dreaded complication. Two women who in the U.S. contracted Zika while traveling miscarried after coming back here. The
virus was found in their placenta. I understand there are questions from the audience too. If you guys want to grab a microphone?
CATHERWOOD: I --
PINSKY: Mike, go ahead.
CATHERWOOD: Well, also, should not we get some credit in the U.S.? No one travels here and then leaves with a disease. Like they may get a
little fatter, but that is never happened.
PINSKY: Diabetes.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, diabetes. That is about it.
PINSKY: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have a question for you guys. What is your response for the disease that is potentially can be carried
and transmitted sexually?
PINSKY: Yes, there have been, I believe in Texas. It was documented. There was a sexual transmission. It did not harm anybody, but the
transmission occurred. And, so that is the issue is that if you come in contact with somebody who has been infected say by the mosquito, then have
sex with that person that could be a real problem.
There is a baby born in Hawaii Hospital last month, first to be born in the U.S. with microcephaly. The mother has thought she have gotten the
virus while living in Brazil. So, it is a serious thing. It is interesting that it does not cause severe illnesses. So, it is not like
the average adult needs to particularly worried about this. The other viruses we talked about, your wife got sick in the Caribbean.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: I was worried she had dengue fever. I still think she may have Chickuyunga, because she was so sick, right?
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: And, these are bad illnesses. What is the matter?
BARNETT: I am shocked. I did not know that. Is there a cure? What kidn of treatment is there?
PINSKY: It is what we call supportive care, because you know, these are viruses. And, there are anti-viral treatments.
CATHERWOOD: Let us kill all the Mosquitos.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: There are people now are saying, what about bringing DDT back. That whole argument has resurfaced again as a way to try to help
control this disease. The point is wear the mosquito repellants. And, the nets do not work so well, because it is not a nighttime mosquito, it is a
daytime mosquito.
So, thank you, guys. Hope that helps you. DVR us then you can watch the show any time. Audience, we appreciate you being here. We appreciate
you all watching. Panel, very good job. We will do an after show. You check us out on Facebook. We are going to talk about that autistic child
and his penalty. See you next time.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
END
END
