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Dr. Drew
Teen Boy Claims Sexual Relationship with Teacher; Autistic Man Jailed After Stabbing Mother; Ivy League Professor Says Black Police Went Too Far. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 15, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTPE)
[21:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, a teen boy claims he had a sexual relationship with his teacher.
He is here exclusively to tell us how and why this happened. Plus, an autistic man is jailed after stabbing his mother in the stomach and back,
but she says he is a gentle giant, and she wants him home with her. So, let us get started.
Toni Sutton, a high school Spanish teacher is charged with having had sex with her teen student. She is pleaded not guilty, but we have the 16-year-
old boy here with us to give us his side of the story. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOMINIC GARCIA, CBS CORRESPONENT: Consensual relationship that lasted months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: She is Toni Sutton. She is accused of carrying on with the young teen for over six months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MISHA DIBONO, KSWB CORRESPONDENT: Text messages between the two describing the acts were found by the young man`s mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDY TASCHNER, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY/PROSECUTOR: Different types of sex acts over the course of a seven- month period. We believe took place
in various locations including her car, her home, as well as in the classroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY ARMSTRONG, TONI SUTTON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She is the nicest, sweetest lady you will ever meet in your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Sutton says she is not guilty, and she has been a teacher in San Diego for six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIBONO: Sutton has one child and lives with her boyfriend and his two kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Attorney, Of Counsel to the Cochran Firm; Stacy Kaiser, Psychotherapist; Segun Oduolowu, himself, a
former teacher and youth mentor and Dan Gilleon, attorney for the student involved. And, we have the alleged victim, as well. We will be protecting
his identity. He is a young man. He is only 16, and we will call him Zach.
Now, some of Zach`s allegations, I have to remind people, have not been independently confirmed by HLN. Here, though, is what we know about the
teacher -- Toni Sutton, 37, high school Spanish teacher, volleyball coach accused of sexual relations with a 15-year-old, faces 11 felony charges;
could get nine years in prison. Her attorney has entered a not guilty plea. I want to start with Zach. Zach, first of all, thanks for joining
us. We really do appreciate it. How did this --
ZACH, CLAIMS AFFAIR WITH TEACHER: You are welcome.
PINSKY: How did this get started? What happened?
ZACH: Well, one day, it was just me and her, and we were in her classroom. And, she would always come to me about how her boyfriend never satisfied
her sexually. And that day, we talked about her boyfriend not satisfying her.
And, then in the classroom that day, she called me over to show me some volleyball videos. And, since I felt that she was not getting any love or
like she was not getting any affection at home, I thought it was right for me to kiss her.
PINSKY: Did it seem bizarre to you that your teacher was talking to you about her sexual life?
ZACH: No, I did not -- I did not think that because everybody has problems, and I just thought that she needed someone to talk to.
PINSKY: Did she talk about her boyfriend?
ZACH: Yes, she did.
PINSKY: How many times did you guys, actually, have sex?
ZACH: I estimate a number around 30.
PINSKY: OK. And, do you think -- did you know that what she was doing, Zach, was illegal?
ZACH: No, I did not.
PINSKY: OK. Zach, I am going to -- do you have anything else you want to add to this conversation or you want us to know?
ZACH: No.
PINSKY: OK. Listen. Hold tight, my friend. Stay right there. We appreciate you being here. Anahita, how do you defend this?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, if the allegations are true, if there are text messages that the parents allegedly found and if
his statement is true, then it might really be more about mitigating rather than getting a not guilty verdict.
So, the defense lawyer is going to argue she has been a teacher for 11 years. She has no prior acts of misconduct, no criminal background. She
is a mother. She is a church-going woman. And, in a lot of these cases, Dr. Drew, the alleged perpetrators, they have been sexually abused. They
have been victims, themselves.
PINSKY: Then why not say she is sick, she is in trouble, she needs to be removed from the school for a while. Monitored --
SEDAGHATFAR: And, that is what is going to happen. That is why the attorney is going to argue that is a mitigating factor. So, if indeed that
is the case, then her attorney will argue. Look, she was a victim herself. She does not belong in jail. She belongs in therapy. She needs
counseling.
PINSKY: Stacy, you agree? -- or should she have gotten therapy long before all this happened?
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.
PINSKY: Because she has damaged a kid in the meantime.
KAISER: 100 percent --
PINSKY: If this happened. If this happened.
KAISER: Yes. She needs therapy. There are definite psychological problems going on here. But, part of what we are talking about is these
predators, there perpetrators and that is what she is. They are always nice. They are always good people. That is always their story. And, in
the same time, there are also bad, evil people who are molesting children.
PINSKY: So, there, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, Stacy, you have treated kids that have been -- males that have been in this position.
KAISER: I have.
PINSKY: And, people seem to confuse a female victim and a male victim, as though the male would be somehow welcoming this. You know, it will have no
impact on the young males. But you, you certainly have treated these guys. And, they have a huge impact.
KAISER: It has a huge impact on them. It impacts their self-esteem. It impacts their ability often times to perform sexually when they get older.
It impacts the relationships that they choose.
And, part of what I do not like about what happened is a lot of times when this happens to a young man, their peers think they are cool. They think
they are the lucky one. And, they do not realize that it is actually even traumatic.
[21:05: 16] PINSKY: Even the kid, himself, thinks, "Oh, this is what I always wanted to do." But, they feel weirdly ashamed. Shame is a very
prominent symptom, is it not? And, they do not know what to do with it, so they end up not even telling their peers oftentimes. But, Segun, you are a
teacher.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, FORMER TEACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: You actually -- I thought you were going to -- you sort of had a physical reaction when poor Zach reported what had happened to him.
ODUOLOWU: It is mind-boggling to me that a teacher, 22 years older than a student will have a conversation about being sexually unfulfilled with her
boyfriend in a classroom. That bothers me, one, as a teacher. Two, just as a human being.
PINSKY: Wait, wait. It boggles your mind, I hope. Not just bothers you.
ODUOLOWU: No. It is just --
PINSKY: Mind-boggling, right?
ODUOLOWU: Well, because it is -- one, there is no place for it. And, it is a horrible -- it is just a horrible -- I have seen it happen before.
Let me just put that out there. I have seen students and talked to students, and I know schools where teachers, that kind of stuff has
happened. But, what bothers me is this 15-year-old basically thought that it was like they had this conversation like he did not think anything of
wrong.
PINSKY: Like they were peers almost.
ODUOLOWU: Right.
PINSKY: This is a teacher. Big people take care of little people. I have said it a thousand times.
ODUOLOWU: She should not have done that.
PINSKY: Dan Gilleon, you are Zach`s attorney, what is your position on this?
DAN GILLEON, STUDENT`S ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I want to give a shout out first of all to Zach for even doing this.
PINSKY: I absolutely, 1,000 percent.
GILLEON: It takes a lot of courage, and I am proud of you, Zach.
PINSKY: And, I am going to say, Dan and Zach too, if you are listening, there Zach, which is that by speaking out and talking about this, hopefully
sort of the -- not just the shame, which the young men experience, but the curtain can be pulled back and other victims can step forward. I mean you
are leading the way, Zach. Applause to you, my friend.
ZACH: Thank you.
GILLEON: And, that is what this is about. I mean, you know, as parents, we are all scared of pedophiles. And, we know they are out there, and they
get attracted to where the kids are. But, what really disturbs me about this is, is that the school district themselves -- you know, they are
mandated reporters. They are supposed to be on the watch-out. You know, and I have gone out to the school district many times.
PINSKY: For other cases?
GILLEON: For other cases, many times. And, I am just, you know, I am just appalled by the fact that we have to deal with this. The parents, we know
the pedophiles are out there. We do not want to think about it. But, you know what? The people who are supposed to be thinking about that are the
school administrators, the teachers. They should be reporting anything they suspect --
PINSKY: I understand the school to be an ally in this fight. Let me throw out, maybe something as a little unpopular. But, is it the administrators
or teachers unions that protect the students, teachers --
ODUOLOWU: But, because she is on paid leave. She is on paid leave. You cannot fire a teacher like -- I mean just -- she is on paid leave! She had
sex with a student, and is ongoing and she is getting paid!
SEDAGHATFAR: Let us be fair. Let us be fair.
ODUOLOWU: No one finds that disgusting?
SEDAGHATFAR: Let us be fair.
PINSKY: Allegedly. Allegedly --
SEDAGHATFAR: These are allegations at this point. Nothing has been --
ODUOLOWU: They doubled her bail.
SEDAGHATFAR: Look. None of these --
ODUOLOWU: They doubled her bail.
SEDAGHATFAR: There is a presumption of innocence, Segun, you should know this by now.
ODUOLOWU: They doubled her bail.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think I have taught you well by now. There is a presumption --
ODUOLOWU: They doubled her bail!
SEDAGHATAR: Can I finish?
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: They doubled the bail because they added additional felony charges. But, the reality is there is no conviction yet. She was not had
her day in court. It could be that she is guilty -- that is how our system works, right? Charges are brought. The defendant is entitled to their day
in court with the constitutional presumption of innocence, and let those jurors decide whether or not she is guilty. So, I think --
ODUOLOWU: Do you think she is guilty? I mean do you think she is guilty?
SEDAGHATFAR: I have no side either way. I believe that if it is true --
ODUOLOWU: In your heart of hearts --
PINSKY: Wait, wait --
SEDAGHATFAR: If it is true --
ODUOLOWU: A 15-year-old boy on television talking about --
PINSKY: I am going to stop you. Hang on. We cannot even begin to -- you know, we cannot speculate about something like that. But, let me just say,
what do you think? You know what I am asking. The administrators think they are doing a tough job.
They are stuck with the teachers unions on one side and the parents on the other, and the state laws on the other. I mean there are so many different
organizations that are incumbent upon.
GIILLEON: In my experience with pedophiles and predators, you know, this is no first time. And, someone out there had to be watching this teacher,
and something should have bugged them. They should have been watching.
This simply cannot happen with a healthy teacher in school. And, by the way, she might be -- have a constitutional right to be presumed innocent,
but when you put it in writing, you are going down.
PINSKY: All right. We are going to keep it going. We will keep this conversation up.
Later, the mother of an autistic man is here. She says he does not belong in jail even though he stabbed her multiple times. Back after this.
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[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. TASCHNER: These charges reflect an ongoing sexual relationship between the defendant who is a teacher with a student, a 16-year-old boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. ARMSTRONG: She is the nicest, sweetest lady you will ever meet in your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The charges include lewd acts on a child, unlawful sexual intercourse, and sodomy of a person under 18.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. TASCHNER: These we believed took place in various locations including her car, her home, as well as in the classroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. ARMSTRONG: Teaching was her life and obviously, regardless of what happens, that is over. She will never be a teacher again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Toni Sutton is the 39-year-old Spanish teacher charged with having had sex with an underage student. He was 15 years old at the time. Back
with Anahita, Stacy, Segun, Dan. We also have the alleged victim with us, we will call him Zach to protect him. And, of course, some of Zach`s
allegations cannot be independently confirmed by HLN. Zach, have you been able to go back to school now that this is all out there?
ZACH: I have tried to go back to school, but -- it is just been hard because some people talk about it, and some people do not talk about it.
PINSKY: Do your peers mistreat you?
ZACH: It depends because some -- it depends on the day with them, like I do not really know when --
PINSKY: Zach, let me ask this. Let me ask this. In my dealings with other young men like you who have been through what you have been through,
they initially think, "Oh, cool" and then it becomes un-cool. How did it become un-cool for you?
[21:15:00] ZACH: Well, when they start talking about how -- like what happened or like what did we do, like what sexual acts like did we do?
PINSKY: And, according to police, your teacher was a family friend is that true?
ZACH: I would not say that she was a family friend, no.
PINSKY: OK. And, how did you guys get caught?
ZACH: Her boyfriend -- he went to the school.
PINSKY: Yes.
ZACH: And, he told the police I guess, and the police started the investigation.
PINSKY: And, are you getting help or support or treatment of any kind?
ZACH: Yes. Yes, I am. I am getting therapy.
PINSKY: Got it. Stacy, so, you have been, again, through with a number of young men, is what he is describing typical?
KAISER: He is describing total accuracy. You know, teenagers are nosey, so they ask a lot of inappropriate questions. And, they are also really
judgmental and critical. So, the ones that do not think he was cool are going to be mocking him and making fun of him. And, that is part of the
fallout that he is going to be dealing with as long as he is in that community.
PINSKY: Segun, as a teacher dealing with this issue, you were very tuned in to the peer group being influential and how this is affecting this young
man.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, because you wonder now amongst young boys, it is cool, right? I mean, you know, "Hey, who at 15, you are a young boy, you know,
you are going through puberty, you start having sex." And, then "Oh, my gosh, he is like the double bonus, you are having sex with a teacher."
But, now everything that comes with it, now it is become this speed media scandal. He cannot go back to school. He does not know how his own
friends are going to react, strangers, gossip, social media that we have talked about on the show. How fast things can spread like wildfire. It is
scary, and I just feel for the guy.
PINSKY: And, not only that, Segun, you are sort of putting a light on the fact that the peers are judging him and shaming him. But, really at that
age group, Stacy, back me up on this, feels as though they cause things that happen.
KAISER: 100 percent.
PINSKY: And, in this situation -- this is an adult with a child. He did not cause anything. He was swept into something that the adult caused.
KAISER: 100 percent. Most of the kids -- and I know that Zach feels this way, as well, walk around blaming themselves. So, now, he is going to feel
guilty that she is going through a trial. And, he is going to feel guilty about what the boyfriend did. And, he is putting it all in himself instead
of where the responsibility should be, which is on her.
PINSKY: Zach, does that sound familiar to you?
ZACH: Yes, it does.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, man, do not feel guilty. This thing, you did not ask for this. I understand that it seemed like something that you were in
control of. But, the whole point of having a teacher is to have an adult there that takes care of you, not who takes care of you.
(LAUGHING)
GILLEON: Yes.
ZACH: Yes, I understand.
GILLEON: Yes.
PINSKY: And, Dan, has he been able to, you know, sort of express some of this to you and get proper help and things?
GILLEON: He has, but there is a double standard out there, unfortunately.
PINSKY: Females versus males?
GILLEON: Right. I started doing this 20 years ago, defending school districts in cases like this. And, even then, you know, we kind of looked
at these cases differently. And, when it was a boy, it just was not the same as a girl. And ,I think that society is finally recognizing, with the
help of people like you --
PINSKY: Look at the outcomes. The outcomes -- without help -- if he had kept quiet, if he had not said anything, if that boyfriend had not found
out about this, of course Zach would kept quiet, it would have had a marked impact on him. He is getting the proper help to make it not be the case.
GILLEON: Right.
PINSKY: But, it could have had a huge impact. You were going to say something, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I was just going to ask you, why is it that this double standard exists? Why is it that if this were a 39-year-old male teacher
that was molesting a 14 or 15-year-old girl, we would want him to get the death penalty? Why is it a different?
PINSKY: Segun, back me up on this. And, Dan, you could ring in if you want to. But, we are all these men had been 15-year-old males.
ODUOLOWU: Yes.
PINSKY: And, a 15-year-old male thinks this would be the greatest thing in the world. That is what he fantasizes about. The fact is, when it
happens, it is destructive.
KAISER: Yes.
PINSKY: So, that is why we all think, "Oh, he finally got what he wanted." That is an unenlightened point of view. That is someone who has only been
a 15-year-old male with those sorts of desires and wishes, not seeing the reality of what happens to young males when they go through something like
this.
ODUOLOWU: But, take it even further. The "Graduate."
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU: The Mrs. Robinson.
PINSKY: Yes.
ODUOLOWU. The whole Idea of the younger man. Motley Crue, "Hot for teacher."
SEDAGHATFAR: When you read some of these stories --
ODUOLOWU: It happens like that. It has always been in the society.
SEDAGHATFAR: When you read some of these stories, you hear the word "Consensual." He had -- even in this case, he had consensual sex with the
teacher. The law does not recognize consent when it is a minor and an adult. So, I think like the thing you always say really resonates. It is
the bigger people that have to take care of the little people.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: Even if he was willing to have sex with her, even if he wanted it.
PINSKY: Whoever wanted to do that, the kid that get swept into this, exactly the kid we want to hold the boundaries with. Dan?
GILLEON: He was 15 years old when this happened.
PINSKY: Yes.
GILLEON: In his brain -- you know, he was a boy. And, his brain is still developing now.
PINSKY: Particularly this part, the prefrontal cortex. The part that contains our impulses. Now, I got to remind everybody that Toni Sutton,
the teacher, has entered a not guilty plea. "USA Today" did a study.
And, now, you, guys, should hear this, and found that 9,000 educators who have been disciplined by state officials were not put on the national
database. Two hundred of those involved allegations of sexual or physical abuse. This mean the teachers can get jobs in other states without a
record of past offenses. What is that?
SEDAGHATFAR: A lot of that has to do with the teachers unions.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: That is what I thought.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, that is why, Dr. Drew, we need to overhaul some of these unions. I know it is a difficult task, but --
PINSKY: Listen. We all have a deep desire, the teacher should be supportive, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely, but we are talking about --
PINSKY: Everybody?
PINSKY: But, not to the point that they are criminals supported within their ranks.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly. There is a case right now where a teacher admitted to molesting a student. He got fired from the school. And, the union is
suing the school in order to get him a pension, Dr. Drew. That is a problem.
That is going beyond having a union supporting educators, who should be held to a high standard in our society, but come on. This is a perfect
example. The example I just told you. We need to overhaul the teachers union that we have.
PINSKY: Stacy, last comments here?
KAISER: I was just going to say, it is the union`s jobs to protect the teachers, but someone else is suppose to protect the kids.
PINSKY: The teachers.
KAISER: Yes. And, to your point, they need to --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: The administrators.
ODUOLOWU: Right.
KAISER: The principals.
PINSKY: Yes.
KAISER: The counselors, the administrators.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, my deepest, deepest -- I do not have a word to describe -- respect and enthusiasm for teachers out there. Particularly --
just like we talk about police. There are bad within -- as a profession, you got to police your own. You cannot let something get in the way of you
policing your own profession because then you all take the negative mark.
That is not OK. Teachers need to be supported. And, you need to solve this problem with from within. Dan, thank you for being here. And, Zach,
mostly, thank you for speaking up about this. I think you will help many other young males and women who may go through something like this.
ZACH: Yes, you guys are welcome.
PINSKY: All right, buddy.
Next up, an Ivy League professor who is black says police went too far when they arrested her. We will show you the video back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: How fast do you think you were going on Mercer Street there?
IMANI PERRY, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: I do not know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: You were not aware?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK. If you had to guess, how -- the speed limit is 45 miles an hour, OK? Where I was sitting, I had you coming at me
at 64 miles an hour.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh, my goodness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK? When I pulled out, just trying to catch up to you, I had you doing 67. So you even sped up even further. So, where
you -- you in a rush to get somewhere?
PERRY: Yes. I am trying to get to work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK. Where do you work at?
PERRY: Princeton University.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK. OK. Just give me a couple of minutes. Let me just look over everything, just to make everything else is valid,
try checking your registration everything and we will get you out of here, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is newly released dash cam video of a Princeton Professor have been pulled over for speeding. The African-American educator claims
on Facebook that the police treated her inappropriately and disproportionately. I will show you some more of that dashcam video. Take
a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: We have a little problem here. OK. You also have a warrant, OK, for a parking offense in New Jersey that you received
two years ago, in March of 2013.
PERRY: Oh, my goodness. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: So, what you need to do, you are going to have to come with us. It is $130 --
PERRY: $130. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: OK. So, if you have that money --
PERRY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: We will be able to post and we will get you coming right back to your car, or we will drop you off at the university
since you really should not be driving because of the suspended driver`s license.
PERY: OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Unfortunately, any time we transport anyone because you are under arrest, because of the warrant we have to put you in
handcuffs, OK. And, that is anyone, that does not --
PERRY: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Yes, I understand.
PERRY: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: What is that?
PERRY: (INAUDIBLE) really bad public relations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: It is just a parking offense, so nobody else has to know about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Imani Perry has three major complaints. She says she was not allowed to make a phone call before she was arrested. A male officer gave
her a, quote, "pat-down" when a female officer was there available. And, she was handcuffed to a table at the police station.
Back with Anahita, Stacy, Segun, and joining us Areva Martin, attorney and legal commentator. So, the question for everybody is that inappropriate
treatment? I have never been treated quite that nicely by a police officer.
ODUOLOWU: I wish I was treated that nicely.
PINSKY: So, I do not know. What is she talking about?
SEDAGHATFAR: So, off the bat, I think, let us be clear. There is -- race does play a significant role in our criminal justice system. I just have
to say this, African-Americans and minorities are treated disproportionately. She is right about. But, I watched that video, and I
have had clients that were actually discriminated against and treated disproportionately because of their race, and I just do not see that here.
I think the officers were being very polite. They were being nice. They explained to her step by step what was going on. And, one of the officers
even offered to drop her off at work after it was over. So, we did not see what happened at the police station, though. She claims there were some
other things that went on. We did not see that. So, maybe things went downhill there. But, based on this, I do not see any racial animus.
PINSKY: Areva, she created the circumstances where she needed to be arrested.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
PINSKY: It was her doing. Maybe she had lack of information. But, if I got in that situation, I would be saying thank you for treating me so
nicely.
MARTIN: Yes, I think Anahita is missing the point. She is not claiming that, that particular experience right there was a racial experience and
that she was somehow treated differently because she is African-American.
What I hear her saying is that some of the protocols at that police use are no longer valid. She says, "Look, I had $130 worth of parking tickets.
Why am I being handcuffed to a desk? Why am I being treated as if I am a violent criminal?" She is asked --
PINSKY: That is the -- police have to follow the laws --
MARTIN: But, that is what she is doing, Dr. Drew. She is raising the issue that maybe we should re-evaluate what these protocols --
PINSKY: No, she said that it was inappropriate and excessive --
MARTIN: No. If you read her entire statement, she issued a statement that said she wanted to raise the question about police protocol and how police
treat people when they are --
PINSKY: Wait a minute. These protocol separate from the propriety of arresting somebody for a parking ticket? Those are two different things.
Police have to do what the legislators require them to do right?
MARTIN: But, that does not mean you cannot challenge it. She says, look - -
PINSKY: Yes, challenge it at the state government.
MARTIN: She started a conversation about it. That is where -- that is how laws get changed because people start conversations about them. And, that
is what she did by posting her experience. Let us have a dialogue about this. Then she was attacked vehemently on social media. She said, people
called her every racial slur you can imagine --
[21:30:00] PINSKY: But, hang on. Hang on. Her complaints are: She was not allowed to make a phone call. She was patted down by a male police
officer and she was handcuffed to a table. None of those things have anything to dowith changing the laws about parking tickets in New Jersey
State Center.
MARTIN: It has to do everything about how police handle those situations. What she was saying is, why is it the case that if you have a female and
male officer there, but the police department said, is that our protocol is that a male officer can pat down a female.
PINSKY: So, she wants to change that?
MARTIN: She raised the question about whether that is appropriate. The police said it is appropriate to handcuff someone to a desk when they are
doing an intake like they did with her. She questions whether that is an appropriate procedure to be used in 2016 when you know all she has is $130
worth of outstanding parking tickets.
PINSKY: How does the officer processing her know it is just a parking ticket --
MARTIN: What we are talking about is raising questions, raising issues. And, she was attacked for merely explaining and talking openly about her
experience.
PINSKY: All right. Segun. Segun.
ODUOLOWU: She should know that more because in her statement, she also said that as an African-American woman, I was conscious of the way police
and the African-American community have dealt with each other in the past. None of what happened on that tape is in any way, shape, or form racially
biased.
For her to even inject race into that is not only wrong, but it colors the entire issue, no pun intended. And, if you want to talk about -- first of
all, do not break the law. Pay your parking ticket and do not drive over the speed limit, 22 miles in a 45.
So, she is already breaking the law. That bothers me because she was guilty when they stopped her. She was doubly guilty because they had a
warrant. They were as polite as possible. We are going to take you in. We will drive you back. This is not --
PINSKY: Segun --
ODUOLOWU: This bothers me.
PINSKY: Segun, do not you agree, you do not want police punished for being so nice.
ODUOLOWU: No. They did a good job. They were polite.
PINSKY: Stacy, what do you think?
KAISER: Look, this is traumatic. It is traumatic to get arrested.
PINSKY: Yes.
KAISER: It is traumatic to get shoved into a police car, taken down.
PINSKY: For sure.
KAISER: You know, handcuffed to a desk, not be able to make a call.
PINSKY: She was traumatized, right?
KAISER: She was traumatized.
PINSKY: I totally agree with that.
KAISER: I 100 percent get that. But, I also think whatever is going on in the trauma, she is forgetting those little details like she is driving on a
suspended license and speeding while she is on it. And, so, yes, it is not just about the parking ticket, it is not just about the $130. There is
none of her taking responsibility for her part in it.
ODUOLOWU: Thank you.
PINSKY: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think she should be attacked either. A read a lot of the attacks against her. But, I think part of that and what is rubbing
people the wrong way is that she did frankly, inject race into the situation.
I agree, if there are policies that need to be challenged, protocols that need to be challenged, let us discuss that. But, I think the fact that she
kind of interjected race into it and there is video --
MARTIN: We cannot help but interject race --
PINSKY: I agree with you, Anahita.
MARTIN: No, no -- if you are an African-American like I am, like she is, and you are stopped by police, race is automatically interjected. That is
what she was trying to bring attention to --
PINSKY: But, Areva, I agree with that --
MARTIN: Yes, in every case. Every interaction you have, it involves race --
PINSKY: Listen. Hey, guys. Hey. I am thinking, would not it have been more productive if she were to sort of put together Areva what you are
saying and what Stacy is saying, and go, "You know what? I was traumatized. The reason I was traumatized is because of the history of
being an African-American woman with the police.
And, as a trauma victim, as a trauma -- somebody who has actively been traumatized, I might distort what, what is going on? And, here is where
they dealt with me insensitively and they could do better?"
Also, I got a mother who is stabbed repeatedly by her autistic son, which she says jail is not the place for her son. She wants him with her, and
she is here with us after the break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A fight erupts between a 21-year-old man with autism and his mother. He pushes her into a wall and stabs her
repeatedly. Five months later, Zachary Holmesis still behind bars despite his mother`s plea to set him free. His family argues, he is a gentle
giant, who needs help, not imprisonment. Prosecutors say he is a threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A judge rules Zachary Holmes poses a threat. He remains held without bail. His mom, the woman whom he stabbed, will join me in just a
minute. I am back with Anahita, Stacy, Segun and Areva. And, Anahita, you have some background on the stabbing?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do. So, the stabbing was reportedly preceded by, quote, a "Minor Matter" that had to do with cleaning up after a dog. This man,
Zachary, he became so angry he repeatedly stabbed his mother in the stomach, the hand, the chin, and the back.
And, at one point, the blade snapped from the handle of the knife, and he went to grab a second knife to continue to attack the mother. But,
luckily, his mother was able to escape. She was hospitalized for four days.
And Dr. Drew, this is obviously such an unfortunate situation here. But, it is not like they threw this man into jail and completely forgot about
him. The department is working to get him treatment, to get him into possibly a facility. But, he is a dangerous man --
PINSKY: Like a psychiatric facility?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. To get him some type of treatment.
PINSKY: Not permanently, though?
SEDAGHATFAR: Not for now, not permanently. In the interim.
PINSKY: Just making sure he gets proper care while he is being held.
SEDAGHATFAR: Correct.
PINSKY: Areva, you have an autistic child. How do we interpret this? Help me understand this.
MARTIN: I think what we are seeing is the worst of the system. We are seeing a system that failed this young man from start to finish. And,
putting this young man in a psychiatric facility is the worst thing that could ever be done --
PINSKY: OK. I am totally -- wait, wait --
MARTIN: This man does not have mental health issues.
PINSKY: I am confused. I am completely --
MARTIN: He has autism. That is a neurological condition.
PINSKY: Yes, but we treat neurological condition in the psychiatric hospitals all the time, that have psychiatric symptoms like impulse control
problems, aggression. Stacy, we deal with this all the time, yes?
KAISER: All the time. But, here is what I would say -- I would not put him in a psychiatric hospital and I would not put him in a jail. He needs
to be put in a place that can handle his developmental needs and work with him, because he clearly has some emotional issues and some anger.
[21:40:00] PINSKY: But, the fact that he is so aggressive -- let us say there was more that had been done before and they missed the opportunity.
What do we do with him now? How do we understand this?
MARTIN: This is every parent of an autistic child`s nightmare. And , unfortunately, some kids who have autism do have and some young adults,
they have aggressive behaviors. But, they are not aggressive behaviors that are caused by malice or intent --
PINSKY: Of course not.
MARTIN: -- when you think of a criminal --
PINSKY: No, no.
MARTIN: -- that forms the intent to do someone harm. This young man needs intensive intervention, behavior therapies. That is why his mother is
saying let him come home. He is not getting the help that he needs in jail, you are not helping the situation. She is not afraid of her son.
They had a traumatic experience, but she wants her son home with her, so that he can get the kind of intervention and help that will allow him to
live an independent life.
I think there is horrible. I think every parent out there that has a child on the spectrum cringes when we see these stories, because that could be my
son, that could be any parent`s son. And, jail is not the place for an individual with autism that had an experience like this young man.
PINSKY: Segun?
ODUOLOWU: I am sorry, and if this sounds insensitive, I do not mean it to. But, if I am the neighbor, I cannot have this guy come home -- I am not
going to feel safe with my kids in the neighborhood with him here. I have friends that have autistic children. Our friend, Holly Robinson Peete and
I advocate for autism.
And, I am with everyone here on the panel that it would be better if the system did more for kids on the spectrum, but the simple matter is he
stabbed his mother. And, in whatever state he was, the knife broke and he went to go back -- I do not know why he did it. But, if I have a kid, I
cannot feel safe as a neighbor, and for me the safety of my kid will come first.
PINSKY: And, I think you speak on behalf of people listening and watching. So, let us bring mom in, to see if there is more to this story, we could
really get our head around. Joann Holmes is on the phone. She is Zachary`s mother.
Joann, I do not know if you heard this conversation, but I wonder -- help us understand how he can be safe at home and why you want him home. We
kind of understand why not in jail. We all believe he does not belong there, but help us understand how to keep him safe in the home.
JOANN HOLMES, STABBED BY AUTISTIC SON (via phone): Well, I think, too, like you said, you know, jail is definitely not for him. But, I think what
you need to understand with Zachary is this was an isolated situation. Zachary has never had any behavior issues in his entire life. This was an
isolated situation. And, it was not as dramatic as it is being found to be.
Did something happen in my home? Yes, it did. Should it have been handled as a family? It should have. I never pressed charges against
Zachary. I never put restraining order against Zachary. And, things are not always as they appear to be. And, because we are in a legal case, I
cannot really give the details. But it did not happen exactly how they are saying it to be.
Is my son a danger to anybody else? No. If you ask anybody in our community, they all want him to come home. The lawyer said, he has never
had anybody with more community support than Zachary. But, the main thing is that he does not belong in jail. He is getting no services at all. He
has been in jail since November 9th. No therapy, nothing.
PINSKY: And, Joann --
HOLMES: And, that is the --
PINSKY: Yes, I understand. That sounds distressing. We were hearing -- you heard that they were trying to get him some care, but she is saying,
no. OK, clearly, everyone wants him to get proper care.
HOLMES: Right.
PINSKY: Now, Joann, in fact, you had tried to get -- my understanding is you tried to get what is called a neuropsychiatric evaluation before this
all went down. Was something already starting to happen? You were concerned about?
HOLMES: It was -- it was starting. Zachary was struggling with -- he is an adult. He is 21 years of age, but he is still a very young. He is in
jail watching "Thomas" and "Sesame Street."
So, yes, he is a 21-year-old male, but, you know, mentally, he is a very young, young child. So, Zachary, started struggling with, "OK, I am an
adult body, but I am so dependent on my mother and for people to do stuff with me." And, that is where his struggles went.
So, we just started seeing him struggle a little bit more. Little bit more OCD, a little bit more anxiety. So, myself, the therapist, and the
pediatrician, we all requested a neuropsych evaluation back in September of 2014. It was denied stating they felt it was not necessary.
PINSKY: Interesting. This was --
HOLMES: Right.
PINSKY: It always bothers me if people do not get enough care.
HOLMES: Correct. So, now, you go through -- now because of all of this, when he did -- and he did end up getting one now because of all this. And,
it said he needed CBT therapy, which if you --
PINSKY: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
HOLMES: Correct. And, when you read that, it is like, "Oh, my God, that is exactly matches my son.
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLMES: So, if he had that neuropsych back in September of 2014 and -- we got the results and we started with the therapy, I guarantee we would not
be in this situation today.
PINSKY: All right. Thanks --
HOLMES: But, because he did not get that test, that he got -- Zachary has never been violent. He was mainstreamed his whole life in school, honor
roll, went to college. He did a mentorship -- an internship as a mentor. His goal has always been to help other people. That has been his goal.
[21:45:15] PINSKY: It makes perfect sense. I have got take a quick break. Thank you. Hold on a second. What I want to talk about, Stacy, is
how to keep someone from -- I mean, we know as mental health professionals that you can prevent these things from happening if you give people
adequate care.
This is one of those tragic stories, where once again, not adequate care given. A mom struggling to get it. So, how do you prevent somebody,
whether you know to get it or cannot get it from becoming an Adam Lanza? How do you present that? We will keep that up and more after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00] ROBYN WISINSKI, MOTHER OF SONE WITH AUTISM: People underestimate that parents of kids with autism go through. The pressure.
It is almost like PTSD sometimes because their lives and their days are so unpredictable. So, it is not fair to say that, "Well, you should have done
this." I think some tragedies are just that. They are tragedies. Does someone have to be punished for a tragedy? Who does it protect by putting
this kid in prison?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That mother, herself, has a 13-year-old on the spectrum. She was addressing the case of an autistic teen, who is spending 15 years in prison
after having started a fire that killed his baby brother. It is a heartbreaking story. We are going to revisit it in a couple of days. I am
back with Anahita, Stacy, Sugun, and Areva.
What do we do with parental denial? Stacy, what do we do with that? Because, you know, I just think of Adam Lanza as the poster child for, you
know, extreme parental denial, not accessing care, as opposed to people that access care, cannot get care, but may not get enough care because they
do not want to see their kid maybe the way the treating professionals do.
KAISER: Well, in a lot of ways this mom we are talking to, and what you are describing, she is right on it. She is aware of a lot of things. But,
where the denial sets in is in the realm of possibilities. So, now, that he has been violent, he could be violent again.
And, the other piece of it is a lot of mental disorders strike around the age of 20. And, so, something else might be brewing inside of this boy.
And, he really needs to be checked out. And, I do not know if his mom would be safe at home.
PINSKY: But, Areva -- you are shaking your head. What Stacy said is simply factual. That is simply factual. Now, the question is what do we
do about that?
MARTIN: Well, I am not necessarily going to agree that it is factual --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. Mental illnesses comes on in the 18 to 22 window, period. Period.
MARTIN: But, you are all conflating mental illness and autism --
PINSKY: No, we are not. We are saying there may be a second problem.
MARTIN: OK. Well, we need to be clear about that. Because what happens when people have these discussions about autism and someone has committed a
crime, that they conflate. They conflate mental illness with autism --
PINSK: No.
MARTIN: They often do.
KAISER: That is not what I was saying at all.
MARTIN: OK. Well, look --
PINSKY: I am glad you are bringing that up. That is not what we mean at all.
MARTIN: No. That is your point because you mentioned Adam Lanza.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: And his situation --
PINSKY: He had both.
MARTIN: He had both.
PINSKY: Yes. That is what is important here.
MARTIN: So, when people talk about it, they talk about his Asperger`s as if somehow the Asperger`s is responsible for the violent behavior. What we
do know about autism is that people with autism are much more likely to be the victim of a crime than to be the perpetrator of a crime. So, that is
very important that we make that clear, because it is not said enough.
ODUOLOWU: But this autistic child perpetrated a crime. And, again, I am not saying that there is not enough treatment or that there should be more
treatment, but he stabbed his mother. The number-one caregiver.
If I live on that street, there is no way -- you are telling me he is 21 years old with a 10-year-old`s frame of mind, and, I have other 10-year-
olds. What if he wants to play with him? You want me to walk down the street and be OK with that.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on.
ODUOLOWU: And, I am just saying that it would be hard to do.
PINSKY: He went to college. He wants to give service to other people. He is functioning at a higher level --
ODUOLOWU: May not murder --
PINSKY: I am just saying, he is not going to hang out with 10-year-olds. Even with a 10-year-old mentality --
ODUOLOWU: He was watching "Sesame Street." That was what his mom said.
PINSKY: I will get to her. Mom -- Joann is still with us. I am going to get to you in just a second. Anahita, quickly.
SEDAGHATFAR: He may be on to something, when you talk about a separate type of mental illness. Because my understanding is they did do a psych
evaluation on him --
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, they determined that at least one of the doctors that his violence was not related to autism, that it was possibly related to
other factors and underlying anger that he had toward his mother. So, that is why --
PINSKY: Well, that is not mental illness. That is psychological.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, but it might be another --
PINSKY: But, Joann, you mentioned that he was having more OCD symptoms in this kind of thing. Is it perhaps something burgeoning there that can be
treated and sort of -- then you can sort of make the case that, that has been dealt with now?
HOLMES: Well, yes because even the evaluations he has had -- it always comes back to autism and anxiety, OCD. And, a lot of times with the
autism, you know, it is just what he is -- you know, he does not have the violent behaviors or anything like that.
A situation did happen, but it does not make him, you know, violent for the rest of his life. Something happened. We can address it. We can address
it as a family and -- with providers. But as far as the legal system, as far as where this is happening, he does not -- you know, it should not be
happening in jail. He is getting no services at all in jail.
And, the way the legal system is, I am getting threatened by the Assistant District Attorney. And, that is a sad thing to this case is that my son is
in jail, and because I am not working with the Assistant District Attorney, I am working with his lawyer, then I get threatened of being arrested and
going to jail if I refuse to testify, it will be in contempt of court.
PINSKY: Wow. Joann, I have to go break, but I really appreciate you being here. And, this sounds terribly frustrating. We will keep on top of your
case and your struggles there.
Next up, I will have an announcement about what is coming up on our show on Wednesday. We have an exclusive. I think you will like it. We are back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 17-year-old boy with autism collapses in court, facing murder charges in the death of his 14-month-old brother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is it appropriate? You, guys, have interrogation experience. Is this proper behavior?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. The cop -- And, you know, I think when I kept reading his criticism of the cops that they
did not have the parents present. Forget the parents. They need a lawyer present. The cops have a duty to protect this kid`s constitutional rights.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And, there are too many people making decisions about unhealthy minds that do not understand what it means to have a mental
health issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have a "Dr. Drew" Exclusive on Wednesday. It is about that very tragedy that caused a 17-year-old to collapse so sadly in court when
he found out that he would be facing murder and arson charges in the death of his beloved baby brother. Matt Morgan has autism. He is going to jail
for 15 years. Is this appropriate? His parents are here to discuss. For now, thank you, panel. DVR us, you can watch us. We will see you next
time.
[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
