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Dr. Drew
Uber Driver Charged with Six Murders in Michigan; Convicted Pedophile Jared Fogle Wants Out of Prison; So-Called Teen Doctor Has History of Cons; Pretending to be a Senator for a Good Cause. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 22, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[21:00:15] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, an Uber driver charged with murdering six people while picking up
fares in between killings. Hear from his terrified passengers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UBER CUSTOMER, ASKED SUSPECT IF HE WAS "THE SHOOTER":You are not the shooter, are you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Plus, Jared Fogle, the convicted pedophile wants out of prison before serving his 15 years behind bars. Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY (on camera): And, police say an Uber driver admits to, quote, "Taking people`s lives," killing six, injuring two. They say then he
picked up passengers during this seven-hour rampage. Take a look.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE JUDGE: First call is the case of State of Michigan versus Jason Brian Dalton.
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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Jason Brian Dalton was arraigned on six counts of murder.
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UNIDNTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Police say Dalton opened fire at three locations over the course of nearly seven hours Saturday night, picking up
Uber fares in between shootings.
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MATT MELLEN, UBER PASSENGER: They were kind of driving through medians, driving through the lawn, speeding along, and then finally once he came to
a stop, I jumped out of the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The idea that someone would go from parking lot to a parking lot and situations where just opening fire and shooting
innocent people, in front of children and shooting children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: It appears all of the shootings were random.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: An apartment complex where a woman was shot four times. A car dealership, where two men were shot and killed. Four
people were gunned down in the parking lot of the cracker barrel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were not targeted for any reason other than, they were there to be a target.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Sara Azari, Attorney; AnneElise Goetz, also an Attorney; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine
University; Karamo Brown, Television host and social worker. All of us, including myself, Uber users, full disclosure, both my sons drive with
Uber. And, from Michigan, I have Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent. Nick, any explanation for this behavior?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it is sickening when you think about the details, that he was picking up fares in between these shooting
scenes. It is the sheer senseless nature of this violent rampage on Saturday night that has this community just really hurting, especially
hard.
Investigators still have not developed a motive. But he spoke with investigators, but even after that they still do not know what inspired him
or what triggered him to do this. Today was the first time that we saw the suspect in court, after he was charged with six counts of first-degree
murder, 16 counts in all.
The only time he ever showed any emotion was when the judge read out the attempted murder charge against a minor. Of course, this suspect is a
father of two young children. He is also married. He appeared via video conference showing very, as I mentioned, little emotion. He spoke just
about ten words, saying that he would prefer to remain silent when asked if he would like to make a statement.
I was at a probable cause hearing right before the arraignment, and detectives were laying out their case. They said, even after he was read
his Miranda rights, he admitted to, quote, "Taking people`s lives." He was at a much different tone in the courtroom earlier today.
PINSKY: Nick, thank you so much. Great update. I appreciate that. Judy, you are the mental health expert here. Let us get in this a little bit. I
see him looking -- we hear about this agitation. He was in some sort of agitated state. I do not know if he is just an angry dude with a
personality disorder or if he is a manic or on drugs, but he looks sort of addled and confused in this video we see of him in the courtroom. And, I
am going to Janine Driver in a minute about him. He looks sort of like -- it is not even pensive, just sort of confused.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
PINSKY: Am I right?
HO: Right. It does not seem like he is rooted in reality at all.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: And, that is why it makes me wonder more about perhaps a drug state or maybe the break of a psychotic episode, but not so much a personality
disorder, because we do not really have much history. He has a relationship. He has two children. It does not seem like he has had
psychological or criminal history before.
PINSKY: Karamo, you said you were going to take us on, on this. Come on now.
KARAMO BROWN, T.V. HOST AND SOCIAL WORKER: Yes. I do not believe this is mental health. I get a little upset when we keep on using this excuse. T
That is called --
PINSKY: It is not an excuse, Karamo! Not an excuse.
HO: It is not an excuse.
BROWN: You know me. I said on this show many times, I know when we are validly saying mental health issues. Let us call a spade a spade. This
man is just evil. And, the reason that he is pensive in this courtroom and not saying anything is because sometimes when you are just evil, you do not
have anything else to say. So like, let us call --
HO: But, what is evil? What is evil?
BROWN: A man that -- a man that will get in an Uber car and drive and kill people over and over again.
HO: But he has a child. He has two children.
BROWN: I know many people with children who are evil.
HO: But, do you think he all of a sudden became evil or do you think that this is just something that was growing in his body himself --
BROWN: I think that he was a very evil person and sometimes this just came out in this way. I do not want -- Personal responsibility. This man needs
to be held responsible.
PINSKY: Yes. I want to talk to the neighbor who has a profile for us about this man. On the phone, I have one of Jason Dalton, he is the Uber
driver, one of his neighbors, James Block. He has lived next to Dalton for 17 years. So, James, you have a pretty good view, sort of sense of who
this guy was. Thank you for joining us.
[JAMES BLOCK, UBER DRIVER`S FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR: Yes, I do. First of all, my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims. And, yes, Jason, he never
showed any kind -- for 17 years I have known him, he never showed any kind of anger towards anybody. He has a loving family. He loved to work
outdoors with his family. He made sure that they always were involved and together.
[21:05:16] He also loved working on tires, and even taught at a community college ten years ago, teaching auto body. I have seen him once a week
during the summer. Every day I would see him and talk to him, have conversations with him. Never, ever occurred to me that he would do such a
horrible thing.
PINSKY: Now, he had some guns, I understand. Were you aware of that? And, why do you think he was keeping guns?
BLOCK: Well, the only thing I know about the guns, and I know the reports said a whole bunch of long guns and stuff. I knew he had a pistol and he
had bought a new pistol probably about a year ago. He saw people -- his garage got broken into with all of his body work --
PINSKY: So, he was trying to protect his property.
BLOCK: Protect. Yes. That is why he bought it. And, he also bought a guard dog.
PINSKY: And, James -- that is interesting. Maybe a little paranoia in there. Because people get a little paranoid as they get sort of manicky.
Again, James, we are just trying to figure out what happened here. But, you say he lost his job recently. Did that contribute to this?
BLOCK: See. I never knew -- see, that is one puzzling part about this -- they said he lost his job. So, he never indicated to me he ever lost his
job. As far as I know and have known, he has been with three different insurance agencies as a claims adjustor for -- I mean rent cars, he would
do the estimates since he was so good at body work.
I never even knew he drove for Uber. I even talked to him on Thursday for 20 minutes and I just thought that -- gotten back from work from having six
months off from surgery. He is always asking me, "How is your shoulder going?" "How is working going?" And, I asked him the same thing, "How is
work going?" He said, "Fine."
PINSKY: And, James, have you had any contact with his family?
BLOCK: No, not directly. But indirectly, one of his friends, his wife, Carol, was -- Jason`s wife, Carol.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOCK: Contacted his friend and have his friend tell me to keep an eye on the house while, you know, this whole thing will be over.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Fair enough. Well, James, thank you very much. We will watch this story. I really appreciate this report. It gives us a
sense of who this guy was. It suddenly seemed to go off the rail.
I started thinking about things like brain tumors, as you get pressure on the brain. People could engage in strange behavior. People remember the
UT shooting, 45 years ago, whatever it was now. Anything else, Karamo? Is that what you think about the guy, he is just a bad dude?
KARAMO: I do. That inspiration right there did not serve anything for me. His description of the fact that he was a teacher, the fact that he worked
on cars.
PINSKY: All right.
KARAMO: I know a lot of evil people that work on cars.
PINSKY: Here is what I like, both attorneys have been quiet during this conversation. Normally, they are the one like, "This guy is a bad dude.
Put him away." Right?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I am looking at this and we are hearing about the horrible victims of the random shooting.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: But, then you hear the neighbor`s testimony, and you think, there are two more victims here. Those other two kids that thought they had this
dad that was a model citizen, and he is saying he is a family guy. He took them everywhere. Those two kids, their worlds has just been rocked. It is
heartbreaking.
PINSKY: Sara, you want to comment?
SARA AZARI, ATTORNEY: Yes. You know, Uber, mentally ill or Uber angry, whatever the situation might be --
PINSKY: It is Uber.
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: It is Uber. Uber driver. You know, this goes back to our serious gun problem. And, we have a huge --
PIJNSKY: Yes. I agree.
AZARI: And, we have a huge gun violence problem.
PINSKY: Yes.
AZARI : And, when you have easy access to guns coupled with mental illness, coupled with being evil, then you know, things get out of control.
PINSKY: Or any of the above. Getting -- screening who gets guns is a big problem. We will keep this up. And later, Jared Fogle says, oh, boy, he
is being punished too harshly for the sex crimes he committed against minors. If you will remember, he did some bad things, but punished too
harshly? Back after this.
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[21:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE JUDGE: You can either retain a private attorney or do you want the court to retain an attorney for you at this time?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: These were not targeted offenses. There is not a connection that we have been able to establish between any of the three
victim groups.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UBER CUSTOMER, ASKED SUSPECT IF HE WAS "THE SHOOTER": Our interaction with him was very basic. It was like a five-minute ride. And, I said, you are
not the shooter, are you? He said, no. And, I said, are you sure? And, he kind of just said, "No, I am just tired. I have been driving for seven
hours."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Can you imagine that? "You are not the shooter, are you?" Of course, we are talking about the Uber driver accused of Uber random gunning
down six people. He apparently admitted to detectives to, quote, "Taking people`s lives."
Back with Sara, AnneElise, Judy and karamo. Karamo is a cast member of the Next 15, Wednesday night on TV One. Also joining us, Janine Driver, our
human lie detector, author of "You Cannot Lie To Me." Now, Janine, you saw this man in court today. We are looking at him. He looks a little sort of
addled to us. What do you see?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Yes. Well, the beginning, Dr. Drew, what we see is his eyes are going down. He is in this internal dialogue.
He is literally having a conversation with himself. And, then, after like a minute or so, you see him look up and then his glasses.
Now, I will say, he did do a deep swallow at one point, when he is hearing about what he killed and what the consequences are going to be. We saw
that deep swallow. When he acknowledges, when he speaks, his upper lip goes up.
And, this is interesting, because it could be a micro-expression of disgust, but I do not know his baseline. So, as we get to watch more
footage over the months and years to come, maybe we will find out, is that his baseline with his upper lip going up or is he disgusted.
PINSKY: Thank you very much, Janine. I wonder if that internal dialogue, Judy -- Karami not to upset you is the actual voices. He is actually in a
psychotic state and actually hearing things?
HO: Right. And, I think we have a couple of other signs that he has gone through some very extreme stressors, possibly the loss of employment,
suddenly. He did seem agitated. He did seem confused. I am a little bit worried that there might have been some kind of psychotic state going on
possibly due to the use of drugs or possibly due to just an organic psychotic break.
PINSKY: Now, what -- Karamo is shaking his head.
BROWN: I lost a job, so I am going to go shoot and kill seven people? I have lost many jobs, and I have not killed anybody.
HO: OK. I know, but you know what?
[21:15:00] BROWN: I just cannot do it.
HO: You do not have certain predispositions. I think you may have had some of them --
PINSKY: Oh, Judy, do not be so sure.
BROWN: Exactly. Do not be sure.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: One of the passengers -- you know, you heard that passenger saying -- asking this driver, "Are you the driver that is shooting everybody up?"
"No, I am just tired." Well, one of the passengers was just on "AC 360" and he described the bizarre behavior upon picking a passenger. Take a
listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELLEN: He received a telephone call. It was over the blue tooth. Once he hung up with that phone call is when he started driving really
erratically. He was running red lights, at that point, squealing the tires. We ran a stop sign and sideswiped another vehicle. And that is
when I, obviously, was panicking. I was pleading for him to stop the vehicle, so I could -- so he could let me out.
He was surprisingly calm the whole time. He was just stating that, "Do not you want t to get a ride to your friend`s house? Do not you need a ride?
And, I was like, "Yes, yes, please just pull over and let me out." At that point, he refused to stop. And, just kept driving, really erratically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is interesting, Judy, it got worse after a phone call. Also interesting that he did not seem to understand the impact he was having on
anyone around him. But Karamo, you still say, just a bad dude.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: Listen, like the doctor said before, we need some more baseline.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Let us talk about what is going to happen here.
GOETZ: Well, I think it is interesting, and I will let Sara talk about what is going to happen to him on the defense perspective. But, every time
you see this, it is the Uber. It is the Uber killer, over and over and over again. And you know everyone at Uber headquarters, this is their
worst nightmare. They are freaking out.
PINSKY: This is Armageddon.
GOETZ: Because what it really is -- I am using "crazy" in quotes -- it is someone who is taking the life of other person. It is a murderer. It has
nothing to do with their job.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GOETZ: And, what is going to happen is we are going to see lawsuit after lawsuit against Uber from the victims and their families. And, frankly, I
think Uber did what they needed to do. They did a background check. They did a criminal history. There was nothing popping up saying, "This guy is
a cause for concern."
And, frankly, when you get in a car, when you get in Uber, those are independent contractors. You need to know, it is just -- it is just some
Joe Schmo off the street and there could be a risk there. There is only so much background that goes into it.
PINSKY: Sure.
GOETZ: And, so, we are going to see the Uber lawsuits, but this is one of those things where I do not think Uber should be tied so closely to this.
BROWN: Well, I actually do, because Uber actually -- I was reading some articles and also went to the website. They have now taken it off, but
they used to state, Uber is one of the safest rides ever.
When you make declarations as the safest ride and when you have your children -- my children take Uber all the time, and it is always a sat well
with me, because of the fact there is some stranger coming to pick up my kid. And, I am kind of like, "Is this right?" And, then also I have had
friends who went through this background check, which is not a background check at all.
PINSKY: But Karamo, to be fair, the passengers were all fine, right?
GOETZ: Right.
PINSKY: There were no passengers injured in this incident.
BROWN: Yes. Of course. Yes. But, like --
PINSKY: This guy was shooting. It just happened to be shooting out of the car while he have to be --
GOETZ: And, you cannot say it without saying Uber. You cannot talk about this story without saying "Uber."
BROWN: But he was on duty. It is like if Dr. Drew went to the hospital and started shooting up people.
PINSKY: Forget the hospital, just start right here.
LAUGHING)
AZARI: Whoa!
PINSKY: Sara, what do you say?
AZARI: Uber is a platform. It just connects passengers to drivers. What do you know, I actually agree with you. But, the issue here is that, that
-- that could have been anyone. It could have been a town car driver.
PINSKY: Right.
AZARI: It could have been a friend of a friend.
PINSKY: It could have been anybody driving any vehicle.
AZARI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: It just happened to be while he was on duty.
Next up, the fake so-called teen doctor who was busted for practicing medicine without a license. I know Sara will come to his defense again.
This dude has a history of conning people. Shocking! Back after this.
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[21:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALACHI LOVE-ROBINSON, TEENAGER POSED AS A PHYSICIAN: I did not operate. I did not reach into someone`s uterus, you know. I did not snatch out a
baby. I did not do any of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: His Docsymmetry profile says he is a certified naturopathic doctor who performs counseling, marriage and family
and hospital administration. And, a resume on MD.com reveals a Dr. Love- Robinson as an educational guru and healthcare professional with superior clinical skills including obstetrics and gynecology, pediatrics, and
maternal health and child care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOVE-ROBINSON: So many physicians have speak to me, and they are just in awe. And, it is not because I am a great person, not because I am some
miracles from heaven sent, it is just because I have a passion for helping people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, the one thing this kid understand is you can put anything online and it means exactly nothing. He understands that. Tonight, new
information about the 18-year-old arrested for practicing medicine without a license. WPVF reports, Malachi Love-Robinson tried to get a job as a
teacher two years ago at age 16.
A report from the school district says he showed up claiming to be a doctor, seeking employment with the school -- quote, "Seeking employment
with the school district in Palm Beach County as a teacher."
Principals at several schools reported he had been on campus trying to integrate with the medical staff. Then when confronted by school
officials, Love-Robinson reportedly said, quote -- come on, you guys love this guy, I know it.
AZARI: I love him.
PINSKY: "He knew he is not a medical doctor, believes he is a compulsive liar and aware that he may have a medical condition." Back with Sara,
AnneElise, Judy and Karamo. Judy, what the hell is he talking about? A medical condition? What is he talking about?
HO: First of all, where is the Doogie Howser bumping music? Where is that? But, seriously, this guy is living out a second life in real life,
right? I mean instead of actually spending his time doing something with his life, he is going around lying about the thing he is doing. It is like
the guy who gets better at guitar hero instead of learns a real guitar. What is happening with him? But there is some recognition, right? --
PINSKY: What? What do you mean? He is recognizing that he has done something wrong?
[21:25:00] HO: A very, very surface level superficial. But, I think it gives us a warning that you actually should check people`s credentials. I
have to say, out of the hundreds of clients that I have had, only one or two people have ever asked me, where I got my degree.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Just to verify my license.
PINSKY: Judy, and I hear that over and over again from mental health professionals, because they do not know. They do not know what the term
doctor means anymore. They have no idea what it means. They do not know what the letters mean after our name.
This guy claims to be home schooled, like that is all you need for a medical degree, but he is not providing any proof of education Sara -- Hold
on. You got to hold on. I am a bit of an agitative role here. Now, here is how he describes his experience. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOVE-ROBINSON: I have done a lot of courses in institutions locally and some non-locally in alternative medicine. I have attended many conventions
and conferences. And, I have done many exams, which I required to get your boards in anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, he has got his boards now. He has got his board certification. But does he know that to get a board, you have to do four
years of training after medical school to be eligible to take a board. I do not know, Sara, what do you think?
AZARI: Listen. I am not even listening to all of that. That is why he is not naming these institutions, because he knows the media is going to just
attack every certificate, every board, whatever it is that he has on his walls. The point is he is a super articulate, adorable, charming, and very
smart 18-year-old. For a guy to be able to --
HO: Would you let him do your exam?
AZARI: No. No. Judy, do you honestly think that I would -- Look. Who I going to go and believe that he is an M.D.?
PINSKY: And, we talked to a guy -- Do you have the tape of the guy who invested in his medical clinic and thought he was a physician. Here, I
talked to a guy, who believed that this physician -- and it was investing in his doctor`s practice. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERSEUS WELLS, DR. LOVE`S BUSINESS PARTNER (via phone): We were determined like to open a practice and hire M.D.s and bring M.D.s in. Now, with all
his degrees in certification, the thing is that I do not know anything about M.D. and all that. He told me he was a natural doctor. So, I do not
know anything about natural doctors and what they do. So, I just took him at his words. What can I say? You know, I mean I do not know much about
it.
PINSKY: Were you surprised? Were you surprised when he was arrested?
WELLS: Was I? Oh, yeah.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
WELLS: I was very surprised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: I was about to give him all this money. Was I? Yes.
PINSKY: I mean, you are about to invest -- I do not know anything about doctors -- should we do a little primer on what the letters mean after
people`s names?
GOETZ: I mean, here, two things. First of all, this guy should not be giving interviews when he has got, you know, very serious charges against
him.
PINSKY: That guy?
GOETZ: He went on "GOOD MORNING AMERICA".
PINSKY: Which one?
GOETZ: No, our Dr. Love guy, or Dr. Love guy. He is doing his interviews and he does not have an attorney with him and he is making statements that
he should not be making. He has serious charges against him, first.
Second, I have a lot of physicians that are also clients. And, it is a hard thing to set up a medical practice. It is a lot of paperwork. It is
a pain in the ass. It is a difficult process. I know you know what I am talking about.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: And, the fact that he had this entrepreneurial spirit to get a business up off the ground at 18, that is hard to do for people that are 30
and highly educated and in some ways, I hate that he is wasting it on an illegal field.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: This is -- this is a mind better spent on -- what? But, AnneElise, he had to -- you know, forge a lot of documents to get this
done. In 2015, he was caught inside a patient`s room during a pregnant woman`s examination.
Hospital staff said he had been wandering the halls there for a month, wearing an embroidered lab coat. There he is with a stethoscope. There he
is, with a stethoscope on his neck. He is not trying to be -- the hospital -- I do not know what is up with this hospital guy.
If you want to take aim at somebody, the hospital declined to press charges. Police determined no crime was committed. Is not -- is not that
hospital potentially liable? Karamo, you are saying yes.
BROWN: This is my big thing. I am so glad you brought that up with the hospital, because as I sit here, we laugh at this little boy. This little
boy is clearly -- now, we are talking about mental health. Something is going on there.
PINSKY: Thank you.
BROWN: But, this is mental health. But, come on, let us talk about all the Americans and how we are just so easily, like, swayed and just can fall
for things like this. There is no one in the hospital thought like, let me figure out why this young man roaming around --
PINSKY: To be fair -- to be fair, we do not know what the hospital did do. This is a report that we cannot corroborate independently. We do not even
know the name of the hospital. We are not taking aim at any particularly.
But it seems curious. And, I will tell you what, it is hard to get on a staff at a hospital. You have to go through lots -- you have to send in so
much paperwork. That is why I think he must have forged a ton of stuff.
AZARI: He sat over the doctor --
PINSKY: Yes, but you would be surprised how easy that is. I am just a medical student or I am an intern --
AZAR: Right.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Did you go to the intern -- yes, I have been to the intern office and I am certified and I got my little tag.
HO: Yes.
GOETZ: Those are hard to get, though, are not they? I mean they do not just hand those out. Those are hard jobs to get.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GOETZ: I have a lot of friends that went to medical school and they were clanging to get those opportunities.
PINSKY: That is right.
GOETZ: And, this guy just walks in with, "Oh, I talked to the guy at the desk, can I follow you around?"
HO: And bought a stethoscope from CVS.
(LAUGHING)
GOETZ: I know. Here I go. We are up and running.
[21:30:00] PINSKY: I want to show you this footage. If you would mind putting it up for me. This is under pressure to show his educational
experience. This is what he told ABC news. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOVE-ROBINSON: I do currently hold a Ph.D. in what, I do not feel comfortable disclosing because that is not the issue here.
MATT GUTMAN, ABC HOST OF "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" PROGRAM: But you treat people --
LOVE-ROBINSON: The issue that I face now, it is accusations. There are many types of degrees out there that hold a title as a doctor whether they
are a physicist or an engineer. Just because someone has a title of doctor in front of their name does not necessarily imply M.D.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He is right. And, how pathetic is that, that he complete eviscerated the terminology. I have to call myself physician, because
people say doc. They have no idea what they are talking about. It has really come to that.
And, let us just be clear, he does not have a Ph.D. He does not have a Ph.D. And if he has something that led him to believe -- by the way,
cannot we hold the people accountable that leads an 18-year-old to believe he has a Ph.D. I want to go after those guys too.
BROWN: Yes.
AZARI: Right.
BROWN: Exactly.
PINSKY: Next up, the conversation continues with this -- well, a new faker. This guy is a fake teen senator. And, later -- State Senator.
Later, Jared Fogle says his prison sentence for sex crimes against minors is just too long. Back after this.
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[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
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KEN RATLIFF, MOHAWK LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT: He basically deceived and conned some people.
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TONY GEFTOS, WTVG CORRESPONDENT: The superintendent explains Akins claimed the senator had fallen ill and appointed him to his seat. So Akins, who is
18 and from Marion, borrowed a car from a local dealership, asked for an escort from the Wyandot County Sheriff`s office, and toured Mohawk with his
alleged aides. Then he spoke to a Civic`s class. One month later, the real senator showed up, as originally scheduled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RATLIFF: Basically, a month later, we say, "Uh-oh, who was that?"
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(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Uh-oh, another imposter. This time it is an 18-year-old college student, looks like every other senator in the state senate, pretending to
be a senator. He says he was faking it for a good cause. Izaha Akins says he impersonated an Ohio State Senator, merely to expose security risks in
the small town schools.
He told the paper, I am going to quote this, "I was duping to prove a point, that these kinds of things can happen. They could easily have
Googled me and they did not. They did not. Back with Sara, AnneElise, Judy, and Karamo. I do not buy it. Sara, you want to defend this guy?
AZARI: Look, yes. Listen, of course I can. Who is the victim here? Imean nobody was harmed by this. I think the school staff had a
responsibility to look this up -- and give me a break, like, hello. There has got to be, you know, a stupidity defense, and they just do not do that.
And, who is hurt by this? At the end of the day, it is a slap on the wrist.
GOETZ: When you impersonate a police officer, when you impersonate of someone at that level, there is a reason that it is a crime. There is a
crime, because people -- you are supposed to have a certain amount of respect for that office. And, when someone comes in and pretends they are
someone that they are not, there is risk and there is damage there.
AZARI: Of course, it is a crime. But it is a victimless crime.
PINSKY: So, what should this man be charged -- what should he get? What should the punishment be?
AZARI: A misdemeanor. A misdemeanor with some community service.
PINSKY: Well, he was charged with two felonies, impersonating a peace officer and telecommunications fraud. Too harsh?
AZARI: Yes, absolutely. Those can be negotiated and reduced to misdemeanors and he can do some community service and he will learn never
to con a school district again.
BROWN: But, I think both of these kids are excellent. To be honest with you, I think both of them. Because they are showing us the holes in our
system. I know that one really had some mental health issues and this one seems like a little arrogant little --
GOETZ: Like a frat boy.
BROWN: Exactly. Yes, just wants to show --
PINSKY: So, hang on, but I want to paraphrase what you are saying. I want to make sure my audience hears this.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: So, for all criminals out there, you are just showing us the loopholes in our system. Show us where we are a little weak and we will
tighten it down. Go ahead --
BROWN: No. These are little kids. I mean I have a kid that is his age. My son is 19. And, when I look at him, I see the innocence in there. And,
I also see, like you said, this was victimless. No one got hurt, but it did wake me up, and say "Anyone could be walking into my son`s schools.
Anyone could be walking to any of our children`s or family member`s schools and no one is paying attention."
It is as simple as Googling. This other kid is walking around as a doctor and no one is saying, "Hey, why do you look so young? What is going on
here?" Yes, wake up, America. It is time to wake up. Get your life in order.
HO: I think we have had plenty of warning that our school system does not have good security. There have been some real serious crimes in schools.
So, I do not think we needed this reminder. I do think, however, that this is classic blamer. He just wants to blame everybody else. He should
Googled him, right?
PINSKY: Well, but Judy to but be fair, his attorney is doing the blaming for him. He told the police he got high doing this, right? He would get a
high from it, which is a little concerning, just saying. The attorney calls him, quote, "An ambitious young person, who was trying to be a
political activist." Sara, do not you want to marry that man?
(LAUGHING)
AZARI: Not quite.
PINSKY: He claims Akins planned to write a paper about security lapses in schools, but university officials say there is no tie between Ohio State
and this incident. Convenient, right? No ties. The attorney -- should not the attorney have looked just to make sure he could substantiate what
he was claiming?
AZARI: I think so.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
HO: I am a little bit afraid, when you said that he gets highs from this.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Because that cues me into the type of anti-social personality that has that low-brain stimulation, and just cannot get the kind of high that we
would get from eating a piece of chocolate.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: You need to do something really extreme.
PINSKY: So, Judy, I want to put a little code on that, because I hang a lantern on that, as it were, because that is a really important piece of
data. Because people that get high from manipulating, get high from breaking crimes, get high from extreme sort of -- what you call this --
deviant activities, that is a severe sociopath who has a very low heart rate. They do not feel much. They do not have anxiety.
[21:40:00] So, in order to feel anything, they have to do these extreme, very intense sorts of activities. Now, the school superintendent says, I
got to quote this, "Visitors and guests will now be thoroughly scrutinized through research and verification of their identity and purpose. Karamo,
there you go.
BROWN: There you go.
PINSKY: Karamo has let us --
GOETZ: I think -- we are just going to Google now, you know. And, who thinks that there is a new senator and no one got the memo. This guy was
talking to an American government class. How is it that you do not know your own senator?
BROWN: Exactly. That is what I am saying, we need to be wake up.
HO: But nobody wanted to be called out to be the not knowledgeable one.
BROWN: That is the problem we have nowadays in this Google era is that nobody wants to be called out. No one wants to do the research, do the
work. And, this kid is showing you. And, when we talked about the fact that you know, whatever his symptom was that you all described --
PINSKY: He gets high. He gets high when he does bad things.
BROWN: But does he have a history of doing this before, or was this the one incident where he woke everyone up?
PINSKY: No. He was 18. That is when this stuff really starts.
GOETZ: Listen. It was a well-planned event too.
PINSKY: I know.
GOETZ: With the security and the car and the aides.
HO: Aides.
PINSKY: Sthat is what the actual senator said is that this was not just him walking through a door, this was him really elaborating planning and
getting off on this.
Next up -- And by the way, speaking of that. Think how different that is than the Uber driver who was just agitated and out of control, not
systemically getting high from cold-blooded -- it is a different thing.
Next, Jared Fogle is in prison, we all know that, for being a pedophile. Tonight, though, he is challenging his 15-year prison sentence. We will
get into that more, after this.
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[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED FOGLE, FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR SUBWAY RESTAURANTS: Hi, I am Jared the Subway guy.
JOSH MINKLER, U.S. ATTORNEY: Fogle admitted that he repeatedly travelled from New York -- from Indiana to New York to engage in commercial sex acts
with victims he knew to be children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The details are flat out stunning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER Documents show explicit images of children as young as 6 were uncovered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY MARGOLIS, FOGLE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jared Fogle expects to go to prison. Jared also knows that he has a medical problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBYN MEADE, HLN HOST: Former subway pitchman, Jared Fogle, wants his prison sentence reduced. Right now, he is serving more than 15 years for
child porn and other charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Attorneys for the former pitchman says his 15-year-plus sentence is, quote, "Unreasonable." They argued that federal prosecutors had
recommended a sentence of just 12 years and poor boy, they got 15. Back with Sara, AnneElise, Judy, and Karamo.
Sara, why unreasonable? His business partner got 27 years for producing child pornography. This guy acted out on children, living children. 15
years unreasonable?
AZARI: It is unreasonable, Dr. Drew, because, there is no fair sentence for child pornography --
PINSKY: Hold on --
AZARI: There is no fair sentence.
PINSKY: Wait, what do you mean?
AZARI: Well, the sentencing guidelines for child pornography are extremely harsh --
PINSKY: What about child sexual abuse?
AZARI: Well, that too. It falls under child pornography under federal law. And, so, the issue is you look at his cohort, his co-defendant, far
worse conduct. I mean the guy who got 27 years, why should he get something like that guy? He was not distributing. He was not creating the
pornography. He was possessing the pornography --
GOETZ: He was directing it --
AZARI: That is just possession. That is possession. But, here is the point, he is appealing this 15-year sentence and he has to prove that the
judge abused his discretion in increasing the 12-1/2-year sentence to 15- year sentence --
PINSKY: Sara, respectfully, you will permit me if I am mortified. Judy?
HO: I am mortified.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: I am mortified. Because think about it, it is 15 years, and how many children has he negatively impacted at this point? It changed their
trajectories forever. Dr. Drew, we have talked about this before.
When you disrupt a child`s development at that age, it really, basically, excuse me for saying, it screws them up for life. Because it really does,
and now they have to get professional intervention just to have some kind of adequate mental health functioning.
GOETZ: And, here is the thing, he pled guilty to heinous crimes --
PINSKY: Is not that why he got less?
GOETZ: Yes. That could have gotten him up to 50 years. This guy got 15. He should be thanking his lucky stars. He was up to 50 years he could have
gotten. And, if he had not acted out the way he did, if he had not committed those heinous, heinous crimes, we would not be talking about, you
know, "Oh, well, you know, it is worse this way than it was this way if someone got that." You committed the crime.
PINSKY: The appeal says, quote, "He will now spend three more years away from his own children than the government thought appropriate."
HO: Well, good, because he might possibly even abuse his own children. So, I would like to get them treatment before he goes back to them.
PINSKY: I want to remind people that he secretly befriended a journalist who secretly recorded their conversations. In case -- let us let you
listen to some of what he said. Just see if you agree with my mortification. He in this phone call, targeted her children. She shared
these tapes with CBS T.V.`s "Dr. Phil." Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROCHELLE HERMAN-WALDRON, FORMER RADIO SHOW HOST: You are around kids a lot. I mean, you must be able to experience different things.
JARED FOGLE, SUBWAY`S FORMER SPOKESMAN, CHILD MOLESTER: Exactly.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Would you -- would you -- would you let me see your kids -- will you let me see your kids naked?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Uh-huh.
FOGLE: That would be OK?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Sure. They are very comfortable.
FOGLE: Good.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Mm hmm.
FOGLE: How old are your kids again?
HERMAN-WALDRON: 10 and 11.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Mm hmm.
FOGLE: You have -- you have a boy and a girl?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: Yes?
HERMAN-WALDRON: Yes.
FOGLE: I would love to see them naked.
HERMAN-WALDRON: Jared?
FOGLE: So, which of your kids do you think I would like better seeing naked, your son or your daughter?
HERMAN-WALDRON: I do not know. You seem to like both girls and boys.
FOGLE: Uh-huh.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: I get PTSD listening to that tape. I apologize to anybody for whom that stuff is extra evocative. Should you have the unfortunate
experience of encountering people like this across your lifespan, I apologize. Talk about evil. I am sorry, Karamo. People who do this kind
of garbage are evil.
[21:50:12] BROWN: Oh, I agree. This man needs to be thrown under the jail. The fact that we are having this conversation about him wanting to
appeal his sentence and get out earlier just disgusts me. And, I do not want to see this man on the street. And, I do not encourage violence, it
is not the thing. But, if this man ever got out, I just fear for his safety. Because --
PINSKY: The stage man behind the camera here, Rhoda.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: She is nodding vigorously, like "Oh, yeah." She would take care of it herself.
BROWN: Yes. Terrible.
PINSKY: But, Sara, I think your point of view is usual?
AZARI: Well, yes. Look. I was looking at this and his statements to this journalist, and that was actually taken into consideration. These tapes
were taken into consideration by the judge, who said, I am not going to go with the deal of 12-1/2 years. I am going to give you 15. I am going to
give you more, which is not very common.
PINSKY: Because of the tapes?
AZARI: Because of his statements about his pure interest -- his unsavory interest. And, so --
PINSKY: Sara, it sounds so -- I do not know.
HO: Savory.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. It sounds like a dinner menu.
AZARI: And, his very -- his very disgusting --
PINSKY: Thank you.
AZARI: -- comments. But at the end of the day, they are not executed. OK. These are just his thoughts. These are things that he is expressing,
and he has not actually done anything about --
GOETZ: But he did execute on some of the things. And, that is what he was charged. That is what he was sentenced with, and that is what he pled
guilty to. So -- yes, they made reference to that. The judge made reference to that, but the judge also made reference to the heinous,
heinous acts.
And, she made a point of saying, we need to deter this conduct. So, I think that he maybe got a little bit of a higher sentence than the
prosecution was asking for because of his celebrity status.
PINSKY: They were trying to make a case, make a point to make sure people get an understanding that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
And, I am deeply sympathetic to people who have these sorts of urges and go get treatment for it.
I have zero patience or time for people that do not take care of this garbage with a professional and then go harm, God knows how many other
kids. They do not do it on one, guys. They do not do it on one. Now, we will keep this going after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Former subway pitchman turned convicted pedophile, Jared Fogle, wants his 15-year sentence reduced. He says it is unreasonable. And, here
is what Fogle told a journalist who was secretly recording their conversation. This clip is from CBS T.V.`s "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FOGLE: Will you (EXPLETIVE WORD) a young boy?
ROCHELLE HERMAN-WALROD, FORMER RADIO HOST: Yes, whatever it is you tell me. I want --
FOGLE: Will you -- a little -- for me?
HERMAN-WALROD: Would that turn you on?
FOGLE: Yes.
HERMAN-WALROD: Tell me.
FOGLE: It would turn me on so much.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That poor woman who had to do these tapes. And, she did them for a couple of years, I think too. She must have needed --
GOETZ: What was it? What did he think he was talking to? I cannot imagine --
PINSKY: A friend.
GOETZ: What he even thought he was talking to?
PINSKY: A friend. If I remember the story, he met her at sort of an event and he sort of -- she heard him say some things that led her to contact
authorities and they had her, you know -- I guess they coached her up. Now, they are reducing -- they are seeking a reduced sentence.
Fogle`s attorney say, quote, "After suffering the mental, physical, and emotional distress that can come with being mortally obese, Fogle spent
countless hours speaking with people about his struggles to get healthy." So, Karamo, there he had to get a reduced sentence. He is helping obese
people --
BROWN: Of course. Exactly. Of course, no, this man should get thrown in jail. Is there anything, to the two attorneys, that we can --
AZARI: He is in jail.
BROWN: Well, you know, I am saying a longer sentence. But, is there anything that we can do as a regular citizens that we can to encourage that
he stay in --
PINSKY: Write the judge.
BROWN: Write the judge. Is that a possibility?
AZARI: No.
BROWN: That is ridiculous!
PINSKY: I like --
BROWN: I feel like helpless!
PINSKY: Let me have the camera for a second, because I want to show you guys something. I like it when Sara does this, when she goes, "No. No."
OK. As a defense attorney, you are sending all kinds of messages. Mixed messages.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: I am like, "What?" Can he?
PINSKY: AnneElise, is this appeal going to work?
GOETZ: It has a chance of working.
PINSKY: Really?
GOETZ: It has a chance of work because, you know, the prosecutor came in 12-1/2 years and he has to make the appeal. He has to. Because when you
sign the plea, it says that you will not appeal, unless the -- unless you get sentenced with a higher amount. So, why would he not. He is sitting
in jail and why would he not do the appeal --
PINSKY: As you thought me, believe in the process.
GOETZ: Yes.
PINSKY: But you think he will get it, though?
GOETZ: I think that there is a chance, when a prosecutor comes in at 12- 1/2 and a judge comes in at 15, there is a chance that another judge looks at this and says this is at his discretion. But, I do not want him to, I
hate that he might. But, it is interesting when a judge really uses his discretion and overrules the prosecution.
PINSKY: And, by the way, his morbid obesity, I see Judy, may agree with me, is part of the trauma manifestations that this Fogle obviously had.
HO: Right. He had some deep issues and actually he was starting to use his good Samaritan public issue to reel children in.
PINSKY: It is a little bit of -- I do not want to -- I do not have a horse in this race, but a little bit of a Bill Cosby thing, right?
HO: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Like, I am a moral person, come on in, I will teach you, I will be your mentor, and then on it comes.
HO: And, gosh, and then kids need good mentors. It is so easy, even as a parent, if they are not resourced to do this.
PINSKY: All right. And, let me make that -- that is one good point. One stable quality relationship with an adult outside the home can save a kid
from a lifetime of trouble. One thing we have noticed is that kids that go through traumatic childhoods, go adverse childhood experiences, do not end
up as bad as we thought.
And, if you look at that population, if they have one sustained relationship outside the home with an adult over time, a long time, things
turn out a little better. DVR us then you can watch us anytime. Panel, great job as always. I want to thank you all for watching. We will see
you next time.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
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