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Dr. Drew
23-Year-Old Man Busted for Posting as High School Student; Asher Pott`s Adoptive Parents Drop Bombshell; Local Gun Rights Activist Accidentally Shot by Own Son; Josh Duggar Out of Sex Rehab. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 10, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHAYNE POTTS, ASHER`S ADOPTIVE MOM: This is too much for me. This is too much. We love that kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF DR. DREW PROGRAM: A 23-year-old man whom police say was sleeping with a 15-year-old classmate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHAYNE POTTS: He started talking about certain kids in the school that he wanted to hurt. And, then he talked about, you know, actually blowing
the school up. He told me that the ROTC was missing five M-16s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Samarin enrolled in Harrisburg high in 2012. He excelled, making the honor roll as well as helping with
recent anti-violence seminars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARTUR SAMARIN, A 23-YEAR-OLD UKRAINIAN WHO POSED AS A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: I just want to have a better life. That`s it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (voice-over): A mom who ran a gun rights Facebook page was accidentally shot in the back by her 4-year-old son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): The .45 that he allegedly shoots goes through the car seat, through mom`s back out of her abdomen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH WELLS, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: One of our deputies, he noticed that the lady in the driver seat was motioning to him as if she
needed assistance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): We believe mom had a Facebook page. She is very pro gun. Couple of posts. One is, "Even my 4-year-old
gets jacked up to target shoot with the .22.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELLS: Exactly, how did the young boy come to be in possession of the firearm?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A shocking sex scandal. Josh Duggar admits to having molested two of his sisters when he was just 14.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): It`s been over six months since he entered a faith-base rehab center. He had, you know, previously said that
was suffering a porn addiction and had cheated on his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Breaking News.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Josh Duggar is out of rehab.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I keep hearing this faith-based treatment. The denial goes on. The denial goes on even in treatment. They are in faith-based treatment
where their 12 steps is the bible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The bible didn`t help him before. So, now we need to do a little bit more. I have no problems with the bible. I`m a
Christian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR SEEWALD, JOSH DUGGAR`S YOUNGER SISTER: I do want to speak up in his defense against people calling him a child molester.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We will see. We have breaking news. The 23-year-old Ukrainian busted for posing as a high school student for four years. New trouble
tonight, his adoptive parents just dropped a bombshell. They say he was, quote, "Planning an attack on his high school." Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: I still don`t believe he`s 23. You all have to prove it to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMARIN: I just want to have a better life. That`s it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: I want to, you know, help him to have the best life he could possibly have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He used a fake birth certificate and social security card to get into Harrisburg High School.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He excelled making the honor roll.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. CLARKE MADDEN, ARTUR SAMARIN`S LAWYER: This is a kid who came here looking for an opportunity to make a contribution, and that is what he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He is also facing statutory rape charges for allegedly having had sex with a 15-year-old classmate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMARIN: I love the United State. It`s a land of opportunity for all of us immigrants. And, this land provided me with opportunities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: He changed. He started talking about certain kids in the school that he wanted to hurt. And, then he talked about, you know, actually
blowing the school up. And, I said, "What?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was one of his adoptive parents who also say they had contacted the FBI about threats he made three months ago. Asher Potts, the
attorney for the young man calls the allegations, quote, "Complete fiction."
Joining me, Vanessa Barnett, mommy blogger at StilettosandSippyCups.com. Sara Azari, Defense Attorney. Kurt Schlichter, Attorney, retired Army
Colonel, conservative commentator, and Erica America, Psychotherapist, T.V. and radio host.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
I got to tell you guys this. Do you see that tape? -- I don`t know whom to believe. And, that is the big headline in the story. I don`t know who the
hell to believe. So, in this situation, the adoptive mom who you saw in that little intro piece, she actually doesn`t believe he`s 23. Take a look
at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: I still don`t believe he`s 23. You all have to prove that to me. Somebody has got to do something to prove that to us. We have watched this
boy go from high pitched tones to the way he speaks now. His shoe size, his clothing size, he got taller.
Asher needs some help. He needs some help. I don`t know what his motive is or was. You know, people are saying he`s a con artist, this, that and
the other. We didn`t see him like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Kurt. Is he 23? Is he 17? Who`s lying? Who is telling the truth? I don`t know where the hell I am.
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY: Well, look. I`m probably going to bet against the Ukrainian teen or guy, who decided to portray a teen in high school.
I`m probably going to think that he`s off.
PINSKY: Probably.
SCHLICHTER: And, his adoptive mother, what the hell is going on here, Dr. Drew? What happened?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I told you I don`t know what the hell is going on here. Now -- wait. I got to show you an exchange. This is an email. A text exchange
between Asher, the Ukrainian kid and his adoptive mother. This was back in November. They confronted her about it in this tape. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:03] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (audio re-enactment): You want me to change my name. Stephanie writes, "Yes. This way I will never bother
you again and you don`t have to bother us. You cannot use our name." She goes on to say, "I will never tell your secrets."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: "I will never tell your secret." I was trying to get him to calm down. I didn`t know where he was. I had no idea and I didn`t want him to
go hurt nobody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sara?
SARA AZARI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you know how I feel about this kid? I support this kid. He came here with dreams. He was trying to realize
those dreams. He went to school. But, Mr. and Mrs. Potts smell like a pot of fish stew. OK? Because Mr. and Mrs. Potts are behind this scheme.
They are the con artists. They are the ones that divides --
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
VANESSA BARNETT, MOMMY BLOGGER: They are all con artists. And, you can`t OK because he wants to have a better life --
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: Erica. Hold on. Hold on, Erica --
BARNETT: He is sleeping with 16-year-old --
AMERICA: OK. I am sorry. I am sorry.
PINSKY: Hold on, Erica! Nobody talk until I freaking call on you. So, go ahead, Vanessa. I`m sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
BARNETT: You cannot support this guy even if he wanted to be here for a better life. He wanted an education. He still knew he wasn`t 17. No one
else knew, but he knew he wasn`t 17 and he still slept with a 15-year-old girl.
PINSKY: We don`t know how old he is. We don`t know.
BARNETT: We know he`s not 17.
PINSKY: No, we don`t. That is the mommy saying --
AMERICA: Dr. Drew, let me speak. Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Erica, no. I am not --
AMERICA: Yes. OK.
PINSKY: Erica, you`re going in the penalty box. Penalty box. You don`t get to speak. Turn her mic off. Turn her mic off. Turn her mic off. I`m
not kidding. Thank you. Sara, the mom has just said, she saw him go through a puberty.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: We don`t know --
AZARI: We don`t know how old he is. And, the mom benefited. Both Mr. and Mrs. Potts benefitted from giving him fake status in the United States. He
was a slave in the house. And, I think what happened with those --
PINSKY: So, he says.
AZARI: But, I think what happened with those text messages, I think that there was a falling out. Clearly, there was falling out. He moved out and
he went to live with another family. And, so, she suddenly was afraid that she -- her and her husband are going to get implicated in this. Now, she
is playing the victim. She profited from this kid.
BARNETT: How does she profited? They were broke. They got evicted like 34 times.
AZARI: Girl, she wrote him off on her own taxes.
BARNETT: Then she should have paid her rent. Nobody is profiting here. They`re all crazy.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. OK. Now, speaking of crazy, I`m going crazy. I don`t know what`s going on here. Now, Erica, I need your help,
where I can actually concentrate and hear you because I`m going crazy, too. Go ahead.
AMERICA: The wise one who sees all sides. OK. First I want to say, two conflicting stories.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: No kidding.
AMERICA: We have the boy who says this is what happened. We have the parent who say this is what happened. Until we have proper analyst go in,
psychodynamics go in and really find out, who is lying and who is not. We do not know for sure.
PINSKY: It may or may not happen.
AMERICA: But, what did I tell you. Last week, when I was on the show, the feeling and the red flags they got from this boy the first time we talked
about it. I said personality disorder. I said potential either sociopaths --
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: -- narcissism.
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: Some kind of con-type of thing. And, so does it mean that he would definitely going to blow up his school. No. But, does it mean that
it could be a possibility that this kid could be had that ability to kind of trick everybody the way he tricked everyone about his age and about, you
know, where he was from --
PINSKY: Yes. I agree.
AMERICA: -- Absolutely. --
PINSKY: You did say that.
AMERICA: -- It`s completely believing what this you boy wanted you to believe in --
PINSKY: Well, she`s a defense attorney. You can forgive her. She has to believe whatever it is her clients dish her. But in this case, Erica, I
totally agree. I do remember you saying that. It has been in the background.
This kid could be a psychopath. He could be a con artist. He could be a criminal. But, we are hearing now, Kurt, that he now has made threats
allegedly to blow up his school.
SCHLICHTER: Why not? He`s already doing under age kids, impersonating people and hanging around with these con artists parents --
PINSKY: We think.
SCHLICHTER: Think? It seems pretty obvious.
BARNETT: Pathetic.
SCHLICHTER: Look. There is some sort of weird social pathology going on here.
PINSKY: Yes. No matter what. It is everybody.
SCHLICHTER: I do not know what the hell it is. I think the whole bunch of them ought to be taken to a forest and hunted for sports.
PINSKY: You should know the attorney --
BARNETT: Wow! That`s extreme.
PINSKY: -- The Asher`s attorney slammed the adoptive parents --
AZARI: Wow! Wow!
BARNETT: They are going to die?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: -- here is what he said. Quote, "The allegations made by Mrs. Potts are complete fiction" as very much like Sara was saying that it is
fishy. "Mrs. Potts` statement that she reported the supposed threats to the FBI HAVE been refuted by the Harrisburg police department, which was
working the case with the bureau.
Mrs. Potts is a convicted thief and a con artist whose reputation to the community is poor. This is clearly an attempt to deflect blame in this
matter and to portray herself as a victim." Is that written by you, Sara?
AZARI: I think so. I think so, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I think that`s exactly what you just said. That is the attorney`s position and it is very interesting that you took a similar position. Now,
both the adoptive parents do have a bit of criminal history, apparently, including charges for writing bad checks and theft by deception. We got to
get into more of this. I, in fact, have one of Asher`s friends who is going to join me in just a second.
Later, a 4-year-old, a 4-year-old picks up his mother`s gun. Mom just happens to be very much of a gun toter. Fires through her car seat with a
loaded .45 while shes is driving. You will hear about it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Police say he`s actually 23 years old. He attended Harrisburg high school illegally and had sex with a 15-year-old
girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMARIN: Ukrainian people were starving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: They took him in when Stephayne says he showed them bullet wounds and knife scars from a Russian childhood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: They do admit to helping him get baptized, so he could use the certificate to get a social security card.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: It all changed after Artur learned he had a heart condition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: He changed. He started talking about certain kids in the school that he wanted to hurt. He told me that the ROTC was missing five M-16s.
And, Asher was on the marksmanship team.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POTTS: This is too much. We love that kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORKY GOLDSTEIN, POTT`S ATTORNEY: They still love him despite what he has done -- he is my boy and he has been my boy now for four years or whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are hearing tonight from the people who had adopted Asher Potts. The 23-year-old, we think, young man, Ukrainian descent who posed
as a high school student for four years, had sex with a 15-year-old along the way. They say Asher recently had talked about blowing up his high
school.
Back with Vanessa, Sara, Kurt and Erica. He spoke to a reporter from jail. He said his adoptive mother came up with this idea to adopt him and they
treated him like a slave, they said. Look at this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
[21:15:10] SAMARIN (via phone): And, Stephayne came up with the idea that, "We are going to adopt you. We are going to bump five years of age
then we can adopt you. Because at 20 years old we can`t adopt you."
Everything they ask of me, I could not tell them no. If I say no, they are going to call immigration and send me back, which I did not want. I was
afraid of that. So, I was cleaning toilet. I was cooking for them.
I was doing everything in house, all this house work. Stephayne was taking classes in HACC and I was doing homework for her. Pretty much like a slave
driver system, but I didn`t mind as long as I`m going to school.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Asher denies all of the adoptive parent`s claims. Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Definitely going fishy here. I wouldn`t quite say --
PINSKY: Who? Who is the fishiest?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I believe that this gentleman was abused like a slave. But, I do want to know, what in the hell is going on
in this system, in this country that we would allow people who have been convicted of these type of crimes to slip through the cracks to adopt any
type of child?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Sara, what do you think? I think your point is well taken.
AZARI: Exactly.
SCHLICHTER: Look. You know, it`s hard to believe that our government is screwing up again. And, I find it really amusing that he is afraid of
getting caught by immigration.
PINSKY: Why? Why?
SCHLICHTER: That`s like the least scary possibility out there. Drive-thru L.A.
AZARI: Here`s the answer to that. Hopefully, this will come out at some point. But, this family is probably getting food stamps. You know, they
are on the verge of eviction. So, they don`t have money, right? So, they`re getting food stamps. They are getting welfare, because now they
have a child that they have adopted.
PINSKY: But, Sara, you mentioned something to me about the report to the FBI.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: Tell me this.
AZARI: She claims that she reported the scheme or that this kid, what this kid did --
PINSKY: No. This kid was just contemplating violent behavior at school.
AZARI: Right, that he was going to blow up the school. Exactly. He is going to blow up the school and kill some students to the FBI, OK, in
November. The FBI doesn`t sit on something like that for four months. OK. That`s a very serious threat.
PINSKY: And, would the local police know about this report as well, a report made to the FBI? That`s what his attorney was saying.
AZARI: The FBI would then put a task force on it and communicate with the law and police.
PINSKY: All right. All right. On the phone, I have one of Asher`s friends. His name is Marcel McCaskill. They met in 2012 at an Upward
Bound Program. Marcel, thanks you for joining us, first of all. And, secondly, did he ever talk about these adoptive parents or do you get a
sense of whether he trusted them?
MARCEL MCCASKILL, FRIEND OF ARTUR SAMARIN: Asher Potts never talked about any type of family members when I met him at the Upward Bound Program. All
he talked about was just the present tense. He never talked about anything in the past. He never talked about being abused or any type of family of
sort.
PINSKY: Do you think the parents -- these adoptive parents are lying?
MCCASKILL: I personally think they are. Just because, again, the FBI wouldn`t sit on something for several months and not try to get any type of
leads on it. I think that the parents are doing this in retaliation from Asher, blaming them for treating him like a slave --
PINSKY: And, Marcel, what about -- I only have few seconds with you my friend, so I am going to get right to this. What about these allegations
that he`s contemplating violence? Do you think that this is a guy as you knew him, who could potentially have those sorts of thoughts?
MCCASKILL: Never in a million years would I think that someone like Asher would have any type of violence in his life.
PINSKY: And, Erica, given that this is someone who knew this young man, does that in any way change your opinion?
AMERICA: No. You know what, Dr. Drew, I really just want to tell you. I`m getting this weird -- I am not saying I`m a medium or something, but
I`m getting this just innate feeling that the adoptive parents are telling the truth. That`s just the feeling that I am getting obviously. We need
to spend more time with them. And, it is the kid potentially is where the lying is going on.
PINSKY: All right.
AMERICA: That`s what I`m feeling.
PINSKY: I am going to give Vanessa a chance.
AMERICA: And, by the way, anybody who is a serial killer could be a married man.
PINSKY: You know, you`re right. How often -- Yes, Sara, how often we sat here, Vanessa, and people said, "Not in a millions years, not that guy,"
and you find out he actually killed them.
BARNETT: Right. And, every single time, it is like "Oh, no. I can`t believe he did it." Of course, you cannot believe he did it. That`s the
whole purpose. They put on this front, so you don`t believe that they are going to bomb the school. They don`t walk around with a sign.
AMERICA: Exactly. Right.
BARNETT: Everybody is lying. But, let`s get this very clear. Everyone is lying. He`s in custody for a reason.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: She has a checkered past for a reason. Nobody wakes up and says, "Let me adopt the 14-year-old from the Ukraine and start making up
documents." This is not how any of this happened. Everybody is lying.
AZARI: What does this F.O.B. from Ukraine know about our system to be able to work it?
PINSKY: F.O.B.?
AZARI: Fresh off the boat. OK?
(LAUGHTER)
BARNETT: Can you say that in 2016?
AZARI: What does he know?
BARNETT: I don`t think you can say that in 2016.
AZARI: I`m not from 2016, girl. I`m from like 1970s.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: Should we banish Sara from the set? What do we have to do here?
(LAUGHTER)
AZARI: Wait. He doesn`t know anything. Mrs. Potts, Mr. Potts, they are the one that were benefitting from him. And, they are the ones that took
him under their wings, so they could profit.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: He`s quoted as saying, "I know I took advantage of the system." He is quoted as saying that. He is not some dull-white ignorant boy who
just got here off the boat as you suggests. He is smarter than you are giving him credit for. He had a 4.16. He is a smart kid.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Kurt, last thought.
SCHLICHTER: Well, I spent some time in the Ukraine. I understand why he wanted to be here.
PINSKY: But, as a young kid he probably witnessed some terrible, terrible --
SCHLICHTER: No. That`s nonsense. There is a war going on now. Ten, 15 years ago, it was a nice place, a developing place. The women are
attractive and have good posture. It`s a wonderful country. Lots of Vodka. Everybody is happy.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
AZARI: Was that a cultural trip?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You know what?
SCHLICHTER: I was in the army. Look, I want to take the side of the parents right now. Putting him to work, cleaning toilets, cooking. It`s
good that kids were learning some responsibility with some chores.
PINSKY: You guys offend me with the language you are using today. So, we are going to get out of this and hopefully get onto something -- Thank you.
Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Next up, this is a mom, who was accidentally shot by her little boy who gets ahold of her weapon. There it is. She`s a gun rights advocate.
Irony? We`ll be back, after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: We`ve got a white female in a gray pickup truck that`s been signal 40 -- I`m sorry. She has been shot by a handgun. I
need rescue and a supervisor around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: You are advising that the subject has injuries to the abdomen, is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: 10-4. That is correct. She`s losing consciousness on me now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DISPATCHER: 10-4. It`s going to be a 3-year-old that was signal zero (armed) with a gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow! Local gun rights activist accidentally shot in the back by her own 4-year-old son. She was driving with the child in the back seat.
The child got -- apparently, the kid wasn`t strapped down quite properly.
He got ahold of her .45 caliber handgun, fired a bullet through the driver`s seat, through the mom`s back into her abdomen. As you heard
there, she was losing consciousness when law enforcement were attempting to help her.
Back with Vanessa, Sara, Kurt and joining us, Natalie Foster, gun advocate, host of "Love at First Shot" on NRA Women T.V. The mother still
hospitalized, everyone, but she is doing OK. She is stable. Now, Sara.
AZARI: Yes?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Is this child endangerment? Just the fact that the kid was not --
AZARI: Absolutely.
PINSKY: -- he wasn`t properly strapped in and near a weapon.
AZARI: Absolutely. And, you know, crazy things happen in Florida. It is only a misdemeanour. In most states it would be a felony. You know, this
woman, she had no business having a gun near her child. And, then she doesn`t restrain the child, so the child can easily reach out for the gun.
It`s like negligence after negligence, criminally.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Natalie. That`s an attorney`s opinion, what do you say?
NATALIE FOSTER, GUN ADVOCATE: Well, everyone has a point. The thing is, it is OK for women to have guns around children as long as they are doing
it properly. What we have seen in the scenario is that there was a problem with the safety. There was a safety violation.
This wasn`t an accident. That`s what we say in the gun community. There are no accidents. There are only safety violations. And obviously, there
are couple of issues that happened here including, obviously, the child being strapped down and he never should have been able to have access or
been anywhere near a loaded .45 caliber weapon.
PINSKY: Vanessa, Charlie has a .22, right?
BARNETT: Oh, yes. This is not a violation. A violation is a fender bender. This child could have killed himself. He could have killed his
mother. This is not just --
PINSKY: Or somebody else riding their bike.
BARNETT: Exactly.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: You think, Kurt that this gun -- I know you are apologist and I know how you feel. We will give you a chance to talk about it. My
question is do you think this is getting so much energy because the woman is such an apologetic pro-gun advocate. And, now, here this horrible
accident that people who have issues with guns would say, "This is why we are worried."
SCHLICHTER: Well, of course. It`s not interesting at all that somebody screwed up with a perfectly legal tool. Look, I believe every American
should have a gun, who is capable, an adult, trained and use it to defend themselves fairly in their community --
PINSKY: How do we decide who that is? How do we decide who that is?
BARNETT: Right. Here we go.
SCHLICHTER: How do I decide who that is? Well, you presume it. Because we have this called the second amendment --
PINSKY: Yes, but wait a minute. California has a list, a growing list every day of people that do not have access -- there is this no-access
list, 20,000 people on that list. The Department of Justice, the firearm organizations --
SCHLICHTER: 20,000 out of what? 36 million.
PINSKY: Yes, but they can`t keep up with it. I am here all the time just crying a river about how we got to end it and not let people with problems
get their hands on guns. Well, they are on this do not have access list and they do not have the money or the manpower to do anything with this
list. So, just administratively, we are overwhelmed by all the guns in the system.
SCHLICHTER: No, no, no. We are not overwhelmed with the guns in the system. All normal Americans should be able to protect themselves if they
choose, every single one of them. And, not just with .45s. I have to point out this woman is lucky, her liver wasn`t splattered all over the
dashboard.
BARNETT: But, she is a normal as you would put it --
SCHLICHTER: No, but she`s an idiot. She is a fool, who misused her weapon.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
BARNETT: Idiot? --
SCHLICHTER: Look, I spent 58 years in the military. I commanded at a battalion, and deputy commander at the -- thousands of people including
here in L.A. during riots, fires and earthquakes. Carried my weapon.
My guys carried their weapons. We were trained. We understood how to use them. We didn`t hand them over to the 4-year-old. I didn`t leave them in
the back seat. --
PINSKY: But, hold on.
SCHLICHTER: A weapon is a too, a dangerous one, which is why it`s a gun.
PINSKY: And, Natalie, is that your point as well? Is that what you were sort of -- you were sort of not quite as emphatic as Kurt, but I think that
was the same point you were trying to make. Yes?
[21:30:00] FOSTER: Yes. Kurt says it just slightly more emphatically than I do. Yes, I agree with him. It is a tool. It has to be handled
safely. And, people do it -- There is a gun for every person in the United States. And, this happens so incredibly rarely, thank God. And, the good
news is that we have a decline in incidents like this.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. I got to get it from the audience. Yes, ma`am, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is a great thing that she`s doing well from the incident.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: However, I would like to know, is it too much for her to be investigated for neglect? Because as it was
mentioned, the child could have quickly turned it on himself and hurt themselves --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. I believe she is in trouble. Maybe the control room can get me the specifics up here that I can read for the audience at home.
You know it?
BARNETT: They said at this time, they can`t really speak to her because of her condition.
PINSKY: Because she is sick.
BARNETT: But, they are definitely thinking about possibly charging her.
PINSKY: So, she has not yet been charged. But, Sara, you do not think --
AZARI: Why do they need to speak to her? What more do they need to charge her? This is ridiculous. Plus she has a 5th amendment right to remain
silent. She may not speak to them.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Well, maybe she would like to choose to use her 5th amendment privilege rather than being required to, because she has an endotracheal
tube in. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, Dr. Drew. I actually had a personal experience when I was about 5 or 7 years old. I was with a friend
in an apartment and someone had left a gun down there on the shelf.
And, I was curious. I wasn`t a bad kid. I just grabbed it and I shot it. And, I went through the floor and luckily somebody came up and they were
yelling. And, they were concerned about us --
PINSKY: Reasonably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: But, they shouldn`t have left it. You know --
PINSKY: So, has that -- let me ask you this, has that made you -- where does it put you on the gun advocacy scale? Does that made you so extra
fearful and against guns or has that made you more in favor of, saying Natalie and Kurt`s position that responsible well-trained use of guns is
the answer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think both sides.
PINSKY: Both sides.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have a weird dichotomy with it, where I actually had done some gun practice. I had a BB gun and I would go out
with my stepfather. But, I feel like there should be extreme precautions taken as far as the safety --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. So, he is in between. All right, I got to take a break. We`re going to keep it going. I`m going to bring in something you
said to me in the green room one time about concealed weapon, because that`s another nuance on this thing.
And, I was actually was surprised. I wouldn`t have expected you to have the opinion you have about concealed weapons, given how enthusiastic you
are. Well, he was generally, but we`ll get into it. We will keep it going.
Later, Josh Duggar out of sex rehab. What is next for the admitted porn addict and adulterer? And, was the treatment adequate? Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Shot in the back by her 4-year-old son with her own gun, Tuesday afternoon. Putnam County Sheriff`s Officer confirmed
that the .45-caliber handgun was owned by 31-year-old Jamie Gilt.
Her social media pages revealed even more. For the past few years, the high profile gun advocate ran this Facebook page called gun sense, where
she posted pictures like this, all expressing her second amendment rights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: In online, she`s advocating for moms with guns, but this week her own child shot her in the back with an unsecured weapon. Back with
Vanessa, Sara, Kurt, and Natalie. A .45-caliber weapon. That`s big weapon. How did the child even handle something like that?
SCHLICHTER: I don`t know, Dr. Drew. If you want to talk technically, I am not going to talk technically. It is a big gun. It is hard to manipulate
for an adult. It had to be in a condition where it was ready to go. This is so negligent.
PINSKY: OK. Now, you -- on the green room, I realized that you were talking about concealed weapons at one point, which is a different matter
from owning a gun, right? Carrying a concealed weapon.
SCHLICHTER: It is different, but it should not be.
PINSKY: It shouldn`t be different. Because you made a big point, you are with another guy back there, a military guy, and you said "Oh, no. Only
people who are really trained should be carrying concealed weapon."
SCHLICHTER: But, there is a difference between having right to and being smart enough to do it.
PINSKY: Yes, but we should give people --
SCHLICHTER: You have to prepare yourself. Look, I am a gun advocate. I believe every American should have the right to keep and bear arms.
PINSKY: Concealed or otherwise.
SCHLICHTER: Concealed or otherwise. But, there is a responsibility there. You owe it to yourself in the people around you to be trained, to be --
PINSKY: How do they -- but listen, I can`t get people to train to be able raise a lizard or a kid. How do I get them to be able to handle a gun?
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHLICHTER: Is there a lizard raising crisis I was unaware of? Tell me what --
PINSKY: There is a gigantic parenting crisis whether you are parenting a lizard or a human at this day.
SCHLICHTER: Look. Let our husband be aside. You need to train before you carry if you`re only smart.
PINSKY: Yes, but Vanessa --
BARNETT: Was not this woman trained? She had a whole site about gun things. She is very pro-gun.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
SCHLICHTER: And, she screwed it up.
BARNETT: Exactly. So, you can`t even tell the difference --
SCHLICHTER: People screw up.
BARNETT: -- who is going to screw up and who isn`t, but you want to give guns to everybody.
PINSKY: That is the problem --
SCHLICHTER: I don`t want to give guns, they can go buy it.
PINSKY: But, Kurt, the screw up piece is so massive.
SCHLICHTER: Yes, it is.
PINSKY: When people screw up, their consequence is so profound. That is what people are living --
SCHLICHTER: All right. Let`s look at another legal product. The car. Anybody in this audience, text while you were driving here? Come on, be
honest.
PINSKY: Never happened to me, ever. I am rising my hands.
SCHLICHTER: Oh, my gosh! People have used a legal product unwisely. Let`s ban cars.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. Audience.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, I`m from the south.
PINSKY: Yes.
PINSKY: And, I grew up in a household where basically there is a gun in every house, but we were taught not to touch them because -- does gun
advocacy not necessarily mean gun education? Is there a difference in between the two?
SCHLICHTER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Was she just an advocate and not necessarily teaching?
PINSKY: Natalie, what do you think? Natalie, you come from that sort of heritage. What do you think she was advocating?
FOSTER: Absolutely. I am so glad the audience member just -- I would love to give you a high five right now. That is exactly the point that I want
to make. Education is key. So, you`ve got to be out there. You`ve got to be giving the training to Kurt`s point, absolutely. But, you know, when it
comes to securing the firearms specifically when you are talking about children, there are programs out there. And --
PINSKY: For 4-year-olds?
(LAUGHTER)
[21:40:00] FOSTER: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, there is one called, Eddie Eagle -- The National Rifle Association has the Eddie Eagle program. And,
the mantra is "Stop, don`t touch, leave the area. Tell an adult." And, then the national shooting sports foundation has project child safe. And,
that is just a couple of them. There are plenty of other smaller gun organizations that, you know --
PINSKY: Well, I get it. I`m sympathetic to both what Kurt and Natalie were saying. I`m ambivalent about all of this. It scars me like crazy
that we have so many guns in this system. And, the wrong people get their hands on it.
I`ve been advocating us to be a system to really keep the guns out of the hands of people that themselves shouldn`t want access to them if they were
in their right mind. But, we can`t make that function in this particular state. I don`t know if other states have systems that are functioning. If
they do, good. We need to at least put that in place.
And, I know, Kurt, you have issues with anybody`s second amendment rights being restricted for any period of time at all. We do that kind of thing
to keep people safe in this country. We may restrict their physical liberties as well. Put them on a hold, things like that. It`s for
everyone`s benefit. We are not going to solve this problem tonight. That`s for sure.
Next up, speaking of having been able to solve the problem, I got to wonder about Josh Duggar. He spent six months in a faith-based so-called rehab
program for, I guess, sex addiction. I looked at the organization online, I`m not sure that`s what they were treating. We`ll get into it after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH DUGGAR: As we know, marriage is between a man and a woman. And I`m honored to have been married to my wife for over five years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Josh Duggar pays reports he molested girls as a teenager, including his sisters and used the adultery
website, Ashley Madison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Michelle and Jim Bob admit their son molested four of his siblings, blaming though everyone but the molester.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): And now this, two active accounts connected to Josh Duggar on the website AshleyMadison.com.
MICHELLE DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S MOTHER: I know that every one of us have done things wrong. We are -- that`s why Jesus came.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He`s been in a faith-based treatment that would not be adequate for him. He needs real treatment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The question is did Josh Duggar get that? He has returned home after a six-month stay in what has been called a faith-based rehab. I
don`t know what that means. The Duggar family broke the news on their family blog. We have an audio recreation of their post. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (re-enactment voice): Josh has completed his residential rehabilitation program. It was a crucial first step in
recovery and healing for Josh. Josh has now returned to Arkansas where he will continue professional counselling and focus on rebuilding
relationships with his family.
We look to God for help and guidance and place all of our trust in him. We are forever grateful for the love and prayers offered by so many and hope
you will continue to pray in the days ahead.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Vanessa, Sara, Kurt and Erica. And, Vanessa, listen, I`m deeply sympathetic to the faith component of this. But, to
have his faith be the treatment, the bible be the treatment and not have any professional management is literally like having surgery without --
just faith-based surgery and not having a surgeon do anything.
BARNETT: Well, first of all, admittedly, you don`t know if there are any medical components to this.
PINSKY: I do not know. That is true. You are right. I look at it -- let me just say it. In my own defense, I looked around on the website and I
could not see any licensed people --
BARNETT: OK.
PINSKY: And, again, this is a place where he was reportedly at.
BARNETT: Right.
PINSKY: It was called the Reformers Unanimous -- if you, guys, would let me read this. Yes, schools of discipleship. The Reformers Unanimous
School, it sounds a little suspicious. But, I looked around there and I could not -- and they were well meaning. And, they claimed good outcomes
and maybe have them. But, I just don`t see the professional stewardship that you need to really get them accountable --
BARNETT: Well, those who don`t necessarily have faith don`t understand faith. They don`t understand God`s grace, his mercy and his forgiveness.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, secondly, to be quite honest and not critical of your profession but often times you have to send people to rehab three, four, five, six times
and it still doesn`t work.
PINSKY: Absolutely. And --
BARNETT: So, to say that this --
PINSKY: Hang on. And, faith is a critical component of treatment. --
BARNETT: And, they can be hand in hand.
PINSKY: I`m just saying that it is not -- that I can`t go to -- what?
BARNETT: I said yes, they can be hand in hand.
PINSKY: Yes. And, I just want to say that the point being, though, there is no professional that I can go to -- "Oh, there is a board there that
watches over that woman or that guy. There is a licensing board. There is a professional standard board." All those people are going to make sure
that, that person is practicing a certain standard on those people that are sick, need help. I do not see -- Maybe they are there. I just don`t see
it.
BARNETT: It sounds very similar to what you do. He`s getting ongoing help.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: He is following steps.
PINSKY: Listen. Six months, good on you, man.
BARNETT: He actually stayed. How many people stay in rehab for six months the first time?
PINSKY: Yes. Listen. Well, after you have been ousted on television it`s a little better. But, go ahead, Kurt.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
SCHLICHTER: Look, I agree strongly with Vanessa that faith can be an important component in our rehab process.
PINSKY: Of course. It is important.
SCHLICHTER: It allows people -- faith a way to get into psychological therapy. I`m not sure this guys needs psychological therapy. I think he
might need 2x4 therapy.
PINSKY: Well, he has kind of had that. Hasn`t he?
SCHLICHTER: Hardly. I haven`t seen him in jail. I mean good Lord. This guys is --
PINSKY: All right. Let me bring in Seth Taylor. Seth Taylor, himself, is a recovering porn addict. He was raised as an Evangelical Christian. So,
Seth, I imagine you see both sides of what we are talking about here.
First of all, straighten us out from your perspective what do you think is going on here? And, secondly, you have a theory about evangelists and male
sex addiction. Go ahead. Give me both.
SETH TAYLOR, RECOVERING PORN ADDICT: Well, the thing is we keep talking about faith-based. And, what I would -- nobody is talking about the actual
substance and spirits. So, there is a lot of therapeutic type of experiences I would say are spiritually integrated.
[21:50:00] PINSKY: Yes.
TAYLOR: And, when I looked at what around the same website you were, what he`s doing is not something that I see as something that is spiritually
integrated. It is based in belief`s system.
So, if we just double down on our belief`s systems one time, two times, three times and we just try hard enough and put ourselves in a situation,
where we can eliminate anything to trigger addictive behaviors, and we call it God, you know.
And, kind of step away from it and the religious, you know, belief systems remain intact. But, that doesn`t necessarily work. If we just traded one
for another and put a different label on it.
PINSKY: So, if I sort of summarize what you are saying, you were a little skeptical, as am I, that it isn`t really substantive treatment.
TAYLOR: Absolutely. And --
PINSKY: Erica -- Go ahead. One second. Erica, do you agree with that?
AMERICA: Yes. No, absolutely. I mean, of course, we don`t know. We don`t know the exact, you know, nature of this treatment. But, exactly,
what you are saying is if there is not like that real, you know, therapeutic psychology whether it involves, you know, the 12 steps and the
addiction aspect of it.
He`s not going to get better. And, even if he did spend six months there talking about God, and feeling better for the family to just be like, "No,
we forgive you, and we are just going to go on like nothing ever happened." Like it is going to --
PINSKY: Right. And, by the way, Erica --
AMERICA: -- It is going to happen again.
PINSKY: Great point. The people around the identified person with the condition need to be functioning or working with treatment as well. Did
they go to a component of family care?
AMERICA: Yes.
PINSKY: So, we don`t know. We don`t deserve to know, frankly. He`s entitled to private confidential care. But, if this is in fact the place,
there are three people on this panel that have some experience treating this stuff were all concerned. We got more after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH: This is not just about marriage. As we know, marriage is between a man and a woman. And, I`m honored to have been married to my wife for over
five years and we have three wonderful children. As I think about the beauty of marriage and God`s design in that. The natural definition of
marriage. I think about and I am reminded of all of us who are people of faith. We hold strong and deep convictions in this area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oops. In 2015, Josh Duggar resigned from his role as the executive director of the family research council after confessed that he
molested several young girls when he was a teenager. Back with Vanessa, Sara, Kurt, Erica and Seth. And, Sara, is it hypocrisy that has us all
sort of exorcised about this guy?
AZARI: Well, it certainly does not for me, because I deal with that in my line of work. I defend them in the criminal justice system.
PINSKY: Sex addicts too, huh?
AZARI: Sex addicts, drug addicts, alcoholics. But, the problem I have with Josh Duggar is that he is such a hypocrite. He is rallying against
gay marriage. He is promoting family values, meanwhile he is cheating on his wife.
PINSKY: Listen. Doesn`t that what people do who are engaged in shameful activity, they compensate for it.
BARNETT: You don`t have to say the last part of the sentence, that`s what people do. If we are being 100 percent honest, we are all walking
hypocrites. We have all done flawed things in our life. And, I do not agree with what this man did and how he ruined his family and what he did
to those young girls, but who among us can judge him --
PINSKY: Kurt.
BARNETT: -- and not understand the forgiveness of Jesus --
SCHLICHTER: I am a judge --
PINSKY: Kurt will. Kurt will.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING AND APPLAUDING)
SCHLICHTER: Look. I don`t care about the skivvy pervs hypocrisy. OK? That is not the big issue. The big issue is that this guy is now out of
cage. He`s going back. He`s only molested five girls. He has three kids of his own and the family apparently has like 400 kids.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You do not like the --
SCHLICHTER: He is thinking it`s a buffet for a pervert.
BARNETT: Oh my God.
PINSKY: Right. So, the perpetrator going back in amongst not just young girls, but also the actual victims. And, speaking of the victims, TLC`s
"Jill and Jessa Counting On," two of the sisters that Josh had molested addressed having learned about their brother` multiple sex scandal. Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR: Most joyful time of my life, you know. Newly married, baby on the way and then --
JILL DUGGAR: The whole world was shocked.
JESSA DUGGAR: We were devastated, like we couldn`t believe it. You have to wonder, like, how did this happen?
JILL DUGGAR: You`re angry and hurt and -- Like all of those emotions all mixed together. I cried a lot of tears. I still do. I know I`m hurting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Seth, that`s very much the concern. How does this happen that this family gets what`s called psycho education, that they are brought into
a more sophisticated sphere with all this. Do you share Kurt`s concern that this guy going back in to the family with a lot of young women and his
victims?
TAYLOR: Absolutely, yes. Yes. I think that the problem is that, you know, in his way of seeing the world he sees the pornography and these
things as the enemy. And, the problem is that`s not the enemy.
It`s just medication for this deep repressed energy in his body. He is living in a tradition. It has been suppressing sexuality, sexual desire
for a thousand years. And, that stuff lives inside of him. It`s a matter of walking back into this space which starts to trigger that repressed
energy.
PINSKY: Erica, I want to go to you real quick. I got a few seconds. Your thoughts?
AMERICA: No. No. I agree with Vanessa and of course we are not condemning this person and of course he is not a terrible person.
PINSKY: Well --
AMERICA: But, he does need to get real help --
SCHLICHTER: Yes, he is.
PINSKY: He did some terrible things.
SCHLICHTER: He`s terrible.
AMERICA: No. That is what I`m saying -- What I`m saying is, we don`t need to vilify him.
PINSKY: Right.
AMERICA: But, he needs to get real help, so that he can get better. Addicts can get better. They can at least live in a healthier way.
PINSKY: And, what Erica is doing is differentiating the human being from their disease state. And, then, Seth is talking about what is within that
human being creating that is creating those behaviors that cause heinous, heinous consequences.
Everybody get help before you hurt somebody else or yourself. That is your job. After that, the legal system does its job. Thank you all panel.
Great job. Audience, thank you for being here. Please DVR us then you can watch this show any time. We do appreciate you watching.
[22:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
END
