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Dr. Drew
Forensic File Update on Janice Trahan Case; Josh Duggar Returns Home After Six Month Stay in Faith-Based Rehab; Two 12-Year-Old Girls Plotted to Kill Best Friend. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 14, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANICE TRAHAN, REGISTERED NURSE: Richard made a lot of promises to me that he did not keep; but he did keep one, and that would be that he would kill
me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: A forensic file update.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAHAN: It started with a pain in my eyes and then lymph nodes started to appear, swollen lymph nodes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): The full battery of tests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR JIM CRAFT, LAFAYETTE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Not only did she find out she was pregnant, but she found out that she was HIV positive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Janice`s primary care physician at the time, Dr. Richard Schmidt --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR CRAFT: He said Janice is a slut. She sleeps around. She is in the bars at night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Janice had her own theory as to how she became infected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE HARSON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She began relating a story to me how she had had this relationship with Dr. Schmidt for a number of years and that
she had recently found out that she had HI. And, she felt that he was responsible for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Josh Duggar admits to having molested two of his sisters when he was just 14. He has returned home after a six month stay in what has been
called a faith-based rehab. I do not know what that means.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (re-enactment voice): Josh has completed his residential rehabilitation program. It was a crucial first step in
recovery and healing for Josh. We look to God for help and guidance and place all of our trust in him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, TLC says it will air a spinoff. It will feature Jill and Jessa Duggar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): -- This from "ABC News."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR, YOUGER SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: In the midst of what we were walking through, there definitely have to be periods of time when I was
like, "I do not want cameras around."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN-DAVID DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S YOUNGER BROTHER: The devil took his best shot, and he tried to take our whole family down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have breaking news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): At just 12, these two girls nearly took another classmate`s life. They lured her to a wooded area,
where police say they stabbed her 19 times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Police say the two middle school aged suspects that they believed in a fictional evil character called
Slender Man. And, essentially, they wanted to be one of his disciples.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This girl, Morgan, had visual hallucinations that Slender Man visited her that he could radiate into her body then commanded her to do
things. Visual hallucinations in a 12-year-old, that is profound mental illness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC INTRO)
PINSKY: And, welcome to the program. We have new information about the story you just saw on forensic files and a lot has happened since this case
wrapped up more than 20 years ago. We have an update. I will speak to the lead investigator and the prosecutor who cracked this case wide open and
eventually put Dr. Schmidt away for 50 years. I want you to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): Janice Trahan was working as a nurse when she met Dr. Schmitd.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAHAN: What attracted me to Richard was his intelligence. He is a very brilliant doctor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They soon started sleeping together even though both of them were married to other people. The affair lasted 10 years.
They even had a child together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR CRAFT: His promise to her at that time was that, "As soon as I am able I am going to leave my wife and children, and you and I will be
married and we can be together."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Trahan divorced her husband, but Dr. Schmidt refused to leave his wife. Things started to go south when Trahan ended
their relationship and began seeing other men.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH STUTES, ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Janice, if you will leave me, I will fix you, I will fix it, so that no man will want you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: One night, Dr. Scmidt came to her house and gave her an injection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAHAN: I never had an injection that caused so much pain in my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He told her it was a B12 supplement then promptly left. A few months later, she developed flu-like symptoms and
went to the doctor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR CRAFT: Not only did she find out she was pregnant, but she found out that she was HIV positive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me on our inaugural episode here at 7:00 P.M. eastern is our veteran team including Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator; Lisa
Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst for Avvo.com and Mark Eiglarsh, travelling all the way from Florida, Trial Attorney at
SpeakToMark.com. And, I have Jim Craft, the lead detective in the case against Dr. Schmidt.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Now, Janice Trahan is still alive. This is 22 years after having been injected with the virus that causes HIV. My producers spoke to her
recently and here is what she said. Quote, "I deal daily with the harsh side effects of the medications and take one day at a time coping with my
illnesses." By illnesses, she means HIV and hepatitis C.
"I am disabled, unable to work. I have been blessed in many ways. And, Jerry and I just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary. My husband,
children and grand children give me many reasons to live. And, an update on Dr. Schmidt, he is serving a 50-year sentence. Last year, he was up for
parole and his parole was denied. Lisa, appropriate?
[19:05:00] ATTY. LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes! Yes. So, whoever someone who should never see the light of day outside prison walls, it is this guy.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, you are a Defense Attorney --
MARK EIGLARSH, TRIAL ATTORNEY AT SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Oh no. I knew it. I knew I should not have come.
PINSKY: Could you defend the guy like this?
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: OK. Listen, the answer is yes.
PINSKY: No, no, not does he deserve a defense.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Oh.
PINSKY: Could you defend him?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I would have some challenges. Honestly, let us discuss this. I am a human being. I find what he did abhorrent. I think that
anyone who injects someone with HIV, but does not think that is quite enough does not just go to hell, by doing the hepatitis C, they get
solitary confinement in hell, you know.
PINSKY: Yes.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Now, that being said, I would challenge myself as I do with all of my clients to defend them zealously --
PINSKY: How would you do it? Come on.
BLOOM: What do you got?
PINSKY: In your self, go ahead.
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: The question is what is the evidence? In this case, hats off to these investigators. They did a phenomenal job.
PINSKY: Well, let me talk to Jim. Jim, because I want to talk to Danine about crazy relationships, because that is really what is under this. He
was married. He is having a kid with a nurse.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes.
PINSKY: It is nuttiness all around.
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: But, Jim, what was your reaction when she first told you that she suspected Dr. Schmidt had actually injected her with HIV? When I read the
Chiron for the episode, I thought, "Impossible. I cannot imagine a physician doing that."
JIM CRAFT, LEAD DETECTIVE: I thought the same thing. He was very well respected in our community. His patients -- he had excellent relationships
with his patients. And, the story just seemed too farfetched beyond belief.
PINSKY: When did you start to come around to Ms. Trahan`s or Nurse Trahan`s point of view?
MAJOR CRAFT: Well, we did a pretty thorough interview with her and obtained as many details as we can. We used some memory recall techniques
to try and pinpoint a date of the injection, because this is a year later that she is reporting. And, as a result of that interview and after
reviewing the information that she gave us, we started to confirm the things that she told us, different facts that she had furnished on her
interview. And --
PINSKY: It is interesting.
MAJOR CRAFT: -- they were accurate.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Jim, even the fact that it was a particularly painful injection rang true for me. Because in order to be sure you are
transmitting HIV, you basically have to do it in a serum or blood and it has to be a relatively large volume or you just maybe not going to make the
transfer the virus?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Can you ask him what the defense was at trial, because that was not revealed in the story. --
PINSKY: Jim, what was the defense?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I am curious with the defense.
PINSKY: Well, you know what --
MAJOR CRAFT: The defense was that he was at home that night and said that he never left his home that he was at home, of course. We had cell phone
records showing a phone call he made to her, which she said he did right before he arrived at her home. And, so, there was a lot of circumstantial
evidence that just, you know, tended to prove her story more than his.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, as I recall there was a 20-minute gap --
PINSKY: Yes.
ATTY. BLOOM: -- where his wife said, "Well, he was home all night except for that 20 minutes I was in the bathtub, which I cannot be sure about."
MANETTE: Right.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, also, was not there a bit of slut shaming going on?
PINSKY: A bit? There was a lot of it.
ATTY. BLOOM: We saw in the opening video just now, where he says, "Oh, she slept around with a lot of men." I am sure that is not a tactic, Mark.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: No, ma`am.
PINSKY: No.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: No.
PINSKY: But, I do want to talk to Danineabout the interpersonal piece to this, because that is -- there is already -- people need simple lives,
right? When people lead simple lives and commit to their relationships --
MANETTE: Right.
PINSKY: -- and are, you know, not messing around on their partners and having children while they are married. All these junk that went on here,
you never know how badly things are going to spin out.
MANETTE: If I had a dollar for every case that I handle now and that I have handled in the past that has to do with a love triangle going bad, I
would be rich. There is always something that is going on, either the jilted lover, the wife finds out, the husband find out, something.
And, this stuff always leads to something, some kind of a problem. Someone gets killed, someone gets ran over by a car, something, because I call it
the X factor. And, if you do not solve for X, and you have no idea of knowing how somebody is going to react when something blows up --
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Who could foresee this? In other words, you cheat on your lover and then some doctor with a phenomenal reputation injects you with
not just HIV but hep C as well? Who could foresee that?
PINSKY: And, the wife`s --
ATTY. BLOOM: Not first time, though. When I was on court T.V. there was a man who injected his own son with HIV.
MANETTE: What?
ATTY. BLOOM: This is not the first case, unfortunately.
MANETTE: We just do not know where these things are going to go. You never know how they are going to end up when emotions get involved in
situations like this.
PINSKY: I think Danine is making a really important point. I suppose to know a little bit about mental health, but I see cases like this and I go,
"What is up with human beings? I cannot imagine how they get themselves into these situations."
That is why we all cannot look away from these stories and that is why we are revisiting them, to get into the weeds of all these and try to tease it
apart. So far, I still think there have been much more going on between the two of them than is reported in the forensic file cases or for this
degree of unravelling to occur.
[19:10:08] Next up, I have got the prosecutor from the case. We will hear Mark Eiglarsh take him on with some cockamamie defense.
(LAUGHING)
And, later the Duggar family says, "The devil made Josh do it." They are speaking for the first time publicly about that sex scandal. We are back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): One night, Janice Trahan awoke to find her ex-lover, Dr. Schmidt standing over her, holding a syringe. He
gave her the shot, telling her it was a vitamin B12 supplement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAHAN: The injection was very painful. I have never had an injection that caused that much pain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Months later, she was diagnosed with HIV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATTY. HARSON: She began relating a story to me how she had had this relationship with Dr. Schmidt for a number of years. And, that she had
recently found out that she had AIDs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But where did he get the blood?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:15:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: HIV tainted blood is not the easiest thing on earth to obtain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And, how did detectives link him to the crime?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And, Dr. Schmidt sentenced to 50 years for attempted murder after he had injected his ex-lover with HIV-tainted blood. Back with Danine,
Lisa and Mark. And, I got to say, Danine, just the fact that this physician is involved with his patient, who is also his nurse, who is also
his lover, who he is not married to whom he has a child with, the layers of boundary violations and I am going to use the word, "Craziness" in that
relationship is -- and forget the ethical violations, which are stunning, it is a setup for trouble.
MANETTE: See, and this is the thing. Now, I am going to probably going to get a lot of flak for this. But, I think that there needs to be a
contributory negligence standard in criminal law. And, the reason I say that is because --
PINSKY: What does it means?
MANETTE: It means that sometimes people have an assumption of the risk. And, even though this guy is a loser and a dog and he needs to be under the
jail and all of that, the fact of the matter is that this was a man she broke up with --
ATTY. BLOOM: Oh no.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Uh-oh, but go ahead.
ATTY. BLOOM: Oh no. Oh no. Here it comes.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Uh-oh. Uh-oh
ATTY. BLOOM: You are not going to blame her, because you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I am going to say, Lisa, she is coming after you.
(LAUGHING)
MANETTE: How are you going to just have someone come in your house and give you a shot who is your ex-boyfriend who has threatened you and
threatened your friend? --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on.
MANETTE: He is a loser.
PINSKY: And, Danine --
MANETTE: I do not understand that.
PINSKY: Still your doctor. Still your doctor --
MANETTE: And, he is still your doctor.
PINSKY: -- which is the part that makes me out of my mind.
MANETTE: So, at some point, you need to wake up and say, "You know what? I am going to get my shot from somebody else and give me my house key
back."
ATTY. BLOOM: Well, yes. OK. OK. Yes, we are talking about consenting adults.
MANETTE: I understand that.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, I think it is very easy to go on cable T.V. and say, "I would never cheat and any cheaters should all go to prison for the rest of
their lives. --
MANETTE: And, it is not that hard --
ATTY. BLOOM: Wait. Wait. Let me make my point --
MANETTE: -- Exactly, when you are done, you are done.
ATTY. BLOOM: But in the real world, people do cheat all the time --
MANETTE: Right.
ATTY. BLOOM: -- and they do not shoot each other up with HIV.
MANETTE: Right. Right.
ATTY. BLOOM: That is not foreseen.
MANETTE: But when the relationship was over, she should have gotten her house key back and stopped taking shots. And, taking care of --
ATTY. BLOOM: Of course, she should.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I got to comment on this criminal law thing.
MANETTE: And, taking care of each other -- he threatened her. He threatened everybody else.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: The issue at trial is whether what he did meets the elements of the crime. Clearly a jury found that.
PINSKY: Stop there. Stop.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: What she did has nothing to do with what he did.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on. I am interested in all that, Danine, but I want to go out to the actual prosecutor himself, Mike Harson. He is the
prosecutor responsible for having put away Dr. Schmidt.
Mike, did you initially believe Janice? And, you hear all this conversation going on here, where it is a little bit of, you know,
wondering about the nature of their relationship. But, we are saying that all of that aside does not have anything to do with what this man did?
MIKE HARSON, PROSECUTOR: No, agree with. And, I did initially believe her. You know, the injection turned out had been given in August of 1994,
I believe it was. And, of course, the doctors did not relay the information about her having contracted HIV until after the holidays.
So, she did not come see me until about six or seven months after that. But, I sat and listened to her, and she was very compelling. I mean she
was a very straightforward witness, very believable. So, I listened very intently to what she had to say. It was a very strange situation.
PINSKY: How about the Dr. Schmidt? I mean just the fact that he had a patient, who was also his lover, who was also his nurse, who he had broken
up from and he was still having a child with and still being her doctor, all that nonsense, shenanigans. I used to word, shenanigans.
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: You are so judgmental, Drew.
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. BLOOM: Oh, my God!
ATTY. HARSON: There obviously were a number of ethical violations on his part, no doubt.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
ATTY. HARSON: I may point out just as an aside that when after he was arrested and he came up for a bond hearing, in the audience at the bond
hearing was not only his wife, but his new girlfriend.
ATTY. BLOOM: Oh my God.
PINSKY: Wow.
MANETTE: He is a pig.
ATTY. BLOOM: At one point in the case, the nurse, the new girlfriend, mysteriously ended up moving to Ohio or someplace up north for a while, and
we ended up worked out and eventually I think he got her back.
PINSKY: Wow.
ATTY. HARSON: It was kind of a strange situation, having the wife and the new girlfriend. And, he admitted it on the stand that he in fact was
having an affair with this new person in front of his wife.
ATTY. BLOOM: This is embarrassing for my gender. There is always women, who take up with guys like this.
MANETTE: Right.
PINSKY: What do you make of this guy? Let us stay with him. What do you make of him?
MANETTE: A pig.
ATTY. HARSON: Well, honestly, he was a very good doctor, but very evil and maniacal in my opinion.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Those two things do not exist together in my world. I mean just the fact that he has a horrible boundary violations with this patient is
already making me not a good doctor.
And, by the way, sometimes when you are over gratifying to patients, they love the fact that you are so paternalistic and all that. But, in fact, he
may have been doing a bad job. Patients do not often know when the doctor is doing a bad job. They just love the attention.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I have a question. Mr. Harson, so, typically, in a criminal case there is plea offers. So, this guy got 50 years on the back
end. What was the plea offer if he had pled guilty, what would you have offered him?
ATTY. HARSON: We were making no offer in that case, because of the nature of the affair.
[19:20:00] ATTY. BLOOM: Yes! Good job.
ATTY. HARSON: Plus the fact that --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Obviously, they felt very confident in the case.
PINSKY: Yes, he did.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: The evidence is overwhelming.
PINSKY: Let me get some thoughts from the audience. Yes, sir?
ARMAN (ph), AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi, my name is Arman, and I work in the HIV and AIDS prevention and education field. And, I still consult in the
field. A lot of things are not adding up. The average window period for someone contracting HIV is between two and three months.
PINSKY: Yes.
ARMAN: So, a lot of these symptoms that they are saying that happened, I am not saying the crime could not happened, but it is not adding up. Also,
this is a prime example of someone violating with what we know now is a HIPAA law. They did not have it back in 1994.
PINSKY: Yes.
ARMAN: So, I am just really curious on how did she get these symptoms. And, it is not adding up from someone who works in the field as their
consult, is not adding up.
PINSKY: Well, I agree. She talked about it. I was swollen lymph nodes and all these, but she probably did not have. They may have been hyperbole
for the forensic files, more than for the court but be that as it may. I let the prosecutor answer that question if you do have a response.
ATTY. HARSON: Well, I will just say this. She was able to determine the date of the injection. And, you understand when we first met, she told me
a lot of these facts, but there was no evidence to support some of what she was saying.
But, through the course of the investigation, we found out a number of things that certainly corroborated exactly what she said, like the date of
the offense. She could not remember it when she first met with me.
But after Detective Craft spoke to her for a while and told her, "Look, just go back and think of things that you did or remember around that time,
maybe something will prompt your memory."
And, just so happened that some time later, she remembered that, that none of the injection and so forth, she was going to go to the hospital for a
while and then the pain started to ease, so she stayed. But the next day, she went to the hospital and indicated to some of her co-workers that
"Look, if something happens, I just want you to know that Dr. Schmidt came by and gave me an injection last night. It was awfully painful."
So, what she did was later on, when she came back and she remembered that when she went back to work that day that someone told her that one of her
favorite patients had died the night before.
PINSKY: So, you can get that date.
ATTY. HARSON: And, so, she went back and checked the records and found out that the man had died I believe on the night of August 4th.
PINSKY: Got it.
ATTY. HARSON: And, that was how we were able to pinpoint the date. And, then, later, his medical records had been found hidden in his office
pinpoint -- coincided exactly with that date as to when the HIV virus was withdrawn from one of his patients and also a blood sample from another
lady, which contained the hepatitis C was drawn either that day or two days before. And, so, that all tied into it and so forth. And, then, you see,
this happened in August, another doctor --
PINSKY: I got to interrupt. Unfortunately, I have to go to commercial, but I really appreciate your update for us. It is a fascinating case. It
is hard for me to believe, but the facts are with the facts are. Thank you, sir.
Next up, hear what the Duggars have to say about moving on from the sex scandal that could have destroyed their family. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (voice-over): "19 Kids & Counting" was one of TLCs biggest hits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (voice-over): It was cancelled after a dark secret was revealed about their oldest son, Josh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: He had just turned 14. And, he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Then, Josh`s name came up in that hack of the infidelity website, Ashley Madison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: We do not need to vilify him but he needs to get real help, so that he can get better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He has returned home after a six-month stay in what has been called a faith-based rehab. So, everybody, get help before you hurt
somebody else or yourself. That is your job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL DUGGAR, YOUGER SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: I cried a lot of tears. I still do. I know I am hurting, but --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: As we said, Josh Duggar returned home from a sixth-month stay at a so-called faith-based rehab program. Several of his family members talked
to ABC News and here is what Josh`s brother, John-David, told "Good Morning America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN-DAVID DUGGAR, YOUNGER BROTHER OF JOSH DUGGAR: The devil took his best shot, and he tried to take our whole family down. But, God has really used
this to, instead of tearing us apart as a family, he is using it to draw us together. So, for us, we have forgiven and we are moving on and we are
looking to the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Danine, Lisa, and Mark. And, Danine, you know, people look at me when they hear that quote and they go, "Really, the devil?" I
do not care if people talk about the devil or sin or sick or brain mechanisms, we are all talking about the same thing. I do not care what
language we use.
We are talking about somebody who is possessed by a condition that creates, however conceived that creates certain behaviors and has certain
treatments. My concern is if you get too involved with the devil and God, you might miss some of the treatment that God has put on this planet to
actually help.
MANETTE: Agree and I disagree.
PINSKY: OK, tell me.
MANETTE: I do not have as bigger problem with this family as I think most people do. And, the reason is, is because they seem to be doing things
according to their faith and the way they want it done. And, it does not seemed to be bothering anybody else. Now, of course Josh has a problem --
PINSKY: Except for the two kids he molested.
MANETTE: Exactly. Josh has a problem but everybody --
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MANETTE: -- out of the 19 people in everybody`s family, you are going to find somebody who has a problem. Everybody has a problem in their family.
And, the fact that they are dealing with theirs on national television rather than condemning them so much, maybe we could look at this as an
opportunity to look in our own homes, in our own families and get in touch with things that could be wrong and talk to our own children.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Danine, to be fair and Lisa I will let you comment in just a second. Can you guys get me that tape that he has got of him talking? We
see Josh, himself, talking about families. And, he is sort of taking issues --
ATTY. BLOOM: Uh-huh, exactly.
PINSKY: Yes. This is where people do not want to give him a break, because he takes a moralizing position that diminishes other people. And,
so, now, they are saying, "Well, if it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander." You, guys, got that? I will let Lisa -- Here comes --
Maybe. I will let Lisa comment.
(LAUGHING)
[19:30:08] ATTY. BLOOM: OK. And, to add to that, this family is very anti-LGBT rights --
PINSKY: Well, that is what I am talking about.
ATTY. BLOOM: -- And, Josh Duggar in general is all about family values and it turns out that he was a child molester and yet his family values is what
they want to be so sanctimonious about. I mean, by the way, we hear about forgiveness. We hear about the devil and you know what we have not heard
about?
Josh Duggar, himself, facing the music and saying, "I did something wrong. I am not apologizing." He has been running and hiding and the family has
been covering for him and that is continuing.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MANETTE: You see -- but, I do not think --
PINSKY: Wait, wait.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: The other way to say what you said was that the way that they dealt with this problem, again, private, up to them, but put other
children potentially in jeopardy.
PINSKY: Yes, that is right.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Because he did not get help. That I have a problem with.
PINSKY: And still might be going on. We do not know what kind of help he got.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: And, I do not buy this, "We are doing this to help others, this reality show." The elephant in the room is they are getting paid
hundreds of thousands of dollars to sit around and let a camera follow them. I want that job.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Yes, but Mark, You would rather have tax dollars going to pay for those 19 kids?
ATTY. BLOOM: You do?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: But, really --
ATTY. BLOOM: I do not want that job,
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I do not want that job.
ATTY. BLOOM: No, you do not.
PINSKY: All right. You would rather have tax dollars going to pay for those 19 kids, because that the other alternative is that they end up --
ATTY. BLOOM: Well, how about do not have kids that you cannot afford?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: No. No. No.
ATTY. BLOOM: Is that so crazy for me?
PINSKY: Too late now.
ATTY. BLOOM: Is that so crazy?
PINSKY: Let me play it for you -- here is Josh Duggar right now talking about family values.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH DUGGAR, ELDEST IN THE DUGGAR SIBLINGS: This is not just about marriage. As we know, marriage is between a man and a woman. And, I`m
honored to have been married to my wife for over five years and we have three wonderful children. As I think about the beauty of marriage and
God`s design in that, the natural definition of marriage. I think about and I am reminded of all of us who are people of faith. We hold strong and
deep convictions in this area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, lisa --
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Hey, Alex -- Alex, I will take hypocrite for a thousand.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, Mark --
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Come on!
PINSKY: -- I think we should call this from now on the Bill Cosby effect. You know, judge not lest ye be judged. You got to be very, very careful.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Audience. Yes, ma`am.
TRACY WALKER (ph), AUDIENCE MEMBER: My name is Tracy Walker (ph), and I want to know what is his so-called help faith based when it was a criminal
act.
MANETTE: You know, there is an interesting thing.
PINSKY: Danine.
MANETTE: I think the two things are separate. What happened with him when he was a child and when he was bothering his sisters, molesting his
sisters, whatever he was doing to them, that was a crime and that should have been dealt with in the legal system. That aside --
PINSKY: It never was, though.
(CROSSTALK)
ATTY. BLOOM: As a family, he --
MANETTE: -- but, even if it was, that would have been over with by now. The new thing is that he is doing this whole thing on Ashley Madison and
that is a big problem. And, everybody is talking about that, but that is a moral issue.
PINSKY: No. It is a sex addiction.
MANETTE: And, I am not speaking up for him --
ATTY. BLOOM: But, she has a very important point.
MANETTE: I am not advocating for him. I am not speaking up for him. I am just saying that whatever he chooses to do as an adult and if he gets the
help he gets them, that is fine or whatever, but that is not a crime.
And, everyone is talking about the fact that they are saying, "God healed us" or whatever. If they feel like God healing their family, then so be
it. I do not think that, that is our place to say that God is not healing them.
PINSKY: But, as someone who works in the area of addiction and compulsions, I am here to tell you that that is not enough. That is
important, and that could be very, very useful, but you need professionally managed care. That is how you determine the quality of what they are
getting. They are held to a certain standard.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Are you saying that he cannot do it with God alone? In other words --
PINSKY: It has not been my experience.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: OK.
PINSKY: And, let is just say, I am not saying he cannot but I am saying there is no assurances unless there is some professional standard being
maintained.
MANETTE: Did not he just come from counseling?
PINSKY: No. He came from a faith-based treatment program, which I had -- I went through their website, I could not find any --
MANETTE: I thought that was counseling.
PINSKY: Well, we think it is the place where he went. And, I went through it and there were no people with professional degrees on their website.
So, yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was just wondering, do we know if he ever said he was molested? Because what if the predator is still in the
home and the others are still living with him?
PINSKY: Ooh, that is a great question.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, that is a very good question.
PINSKY: It is a great question.
ATTY. BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Because that is often how it goes. However, for males that become sexually compulsive, it is sometimes just emotional abuse. I am not saying
there was emotional abuse there, but that sometimes enough to trigger a sex addiction in a male. In women, usually there is sexual abuse that triggers
sex abuse.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, he has not said because he has not said anything, and that is my beef with the family. The family puts the victims out there,
those two girls. He is happy to get out there and talk about marriage, where marriage is between a man and a woman and a porn star, I guess, if
you are Josh Duggar. He is happy to talk about that, but not about what he did.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Well, let me show you -- you said the victims. So, here are Jill and Jessa in their new series, "Jill and Jessa Counting On." It is a new
TLC series that follows both the sisters. "Good Morning America" asked Jessa, one of the sisters, who Josh had molested her, if she is ready for
the spotlight again. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR, YOUNGER SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: In the midst of what we were walking through, there definitely have to be periods of time where you are
just like, I do not want cameras around. But as we were talking together as siblings like, "You know what? If we can encourage even one other
person out there who is struggling right now, then that needs to be our goal. We have had a lot of healing in our family in these past months and
we are ready to move forward and share our lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:16] PINSKY: Mark, there it is.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Well, she left out the one part. Am I the only one who sees it? We were not ready. All right, we will add another zero to that.
All right, I am ready, bring the cameras in now. All ready.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Danine.
MANETTE: Yes. I feel sorry for those girls, I really do.
PINSKY: I do too.
MANETTE: I really hope that they were able to get some type of help. I have not seen that anywhere, but that is who I feel sorry for. But at the
same time, I really hope that this experience and them putting it out there is helping other families.
PINSKY: Of course.
MANETTE: That is the main thing.
PINSKY: Danine --
MANETTE: I am hoping that this is a -- We are now able to look at our own homes and see what is going on.
PINSKY: I thoroughly agree with you. That is why I want to cover this story. However, the fact that the perpetrators are out defending their perp
is --
MANETTE: Yes.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Just saying. Just saying. There is a lot more work to be done.
Next up, did the Duggars deliberately promote an image of themselves that was not in fact their true family system? We will answer that question.
And, later Slender Man is back. Remember this guy, he is back in the headlines. There he is. I will tell you why he is in the headlines again.
Take a look.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNA DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR`S WIFE: I do not know what I am stepping into. I do not know how to handle each situation. It is not anything I ever would
have thought I would walk through. Just do the next right thing. Have the next right response for the next 15 minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Josh Duggars wife a Anna from TLC`s "Jill and Jessa Counting On." Josh and Anna still married. Here is more from the Duggar`s
new reality series.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BABY CRYING)
JESSA DUGGAR: All right, buddy, it is time to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR (voice-over): Having the full 24 hour care of an infant --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SEEWALD, JESSA DUGGAR`S HUSBAND: Does not smell good at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR (on camera): Every diaper change, every feeding, it is all on you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR: He has got this cold right now.
(BABY SNEEZING)
JESSA DUGGAR: Kind of makes me nervous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DERICK DILLARD, JILL DUGGAR`S HUSBAND: We are sitting in our new home in central America. We are so blessed to be here with our little family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR: We miss Jill and Derrick a whole lot. And, it is even more difficult I feel knowing that it is not very safe and it is dangerous in
the countries where they have been serving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Danine, Lisa and Mark. Mark, you had a question.
EIGLARSH: You know, when you think about this family, the one thing we are not discussing is there is 19 of them.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Now, I have three, very young ones, and it is challenging. And, if I have just short of three dozen, the alone time that I would have with
them would be very challenging.
MANETTE: Right.
EIGLARSH: You think that might have some impact on him and the other kids psychologically?
PINSKY: Well, it is interesting. When we were talking about the fact that sex addiction and emotional abuse go together in young males, it did occur
to me that things like abandonment feelings can be very powerful and have a dramatic effect on young people`s development.
And, you know, the people who terrorize about these things say -- I hope I do not bore you with all this, but that time with the primary caretaker,
meaning the parent, is a critical ingredient to developing an emotional landscape. And, without adequate amounts of that presence, now, they can
fill in with other family members and thinks they could be surrogates. But, man, you got to pay attention to that.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, Drew, you know, this was relevant when the molestation thing came to light, because the parents said essentially, well, we cannot
watch all these kids all the time. Well, why did you have so many kids that you cannot keep an eye on them?
MANETTE: Right. Right.
PINSKY: And, that is what people are looking at and then you are putting them on TV and may be that is exploitative.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: And, then you are judging other people. So, there are lots of reasons people like to express their schadenfreude in this family. And, it
is unfortunate, they are struggling. But, being able to watch them is different than being able to spend at tuned emotional present time with
them, which is something that we just do not do enough as a parents generally and they do it.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes. Right.
MANETTE: And, the older children were in charge of the younger children.
PINSKY: Yes.
MANETTE: The whole system was setup. And, so, for Josh to be the only one acting out in that family, I would be actually surprised if that is the
case.
PINSKY: Well, as our audience member said, you know, something may have happened to him by somebody else. There might be another perpetrator
flying around, but no one knows. We do not know. But, I am going back to the fact that was it the older brother, John -- Josh, whatever his name was
-- John-David --
ATTY. EIGLARSH: That is how the parents react. Which one are you? Josh? John?
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. BLOOM: Oh, what is his name?
PINSKY: But, I agree. I cannot keep track. But, that kid was saying that the whole family was affected, that the devil was sort of taking down the
whole family. And, I actually saw that as a positive, the fact they understood the entire system needed a bit of work --
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: -- which means that they are attending to that, I hope.
Next up, we have an update on Slender Man case. One of the girls accused of attempted murder may be getting the help, I have said all along she must
have. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: For three months, these two 12-year-old girls plotted to kill one of their best friends. That is when they lured her out
in the woods and stabbed her 19 times. According to the criminal complaint, Morgan Geyser came up with the idea of the murder and lucid her
friend Anissa Weier to help her.
Both girls were fans of horror websites, where they say they were introduced to a fictional character called Slender Man. They thought he
was real and could only meet him if they physically killed someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, one of the girls involved in this slender man stabbing has been ordered into treatment, thank goodness, by a Wisconsin judge. Morgan
Geyser, the girl accused of planning the attack and wielding the knife has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. Early onset schizophrenia typically
comes on 18 to 22. It can even come on in childhood or middle adolescence.
Back with Danine, Lisa and Mark. And, I wanted to explain some of these features of adolescent mental illness generally. So, if you have a kid
that is withdrawing from friends and family, the number one sign of trouble is a sudden drop in performance at school, trouble sleeping, appetite
changes, irritability, depressed mood, lack of motivation, any of those. I know Mark is going to say, she is just a 15-year-old, right?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: No, but that is always drug use.
PINSKY: Any mental illness. It is very hard to tell an adolescent what kind of mental illness you are dealing with, but you see any of those
things I just listed, you need to see a doctor. Do not assume it is just teenage behavior.
And, then, the last thing in this particular case was bizarre behavior and bizarre thinking, she actually believed she was talking to Slender Man.
She has hallucinations. And, the family just stopped by. My question is, is the family accountable in anyway for not getting this kid treatment?
ATTY. BLOOM: They are not.
PINSKY: Is not that infringing?
ATTY. BLOOM: And, I am not even going to say they should be, because I think this is a very hard situation. This is in the news because of what
these girls did, and it is a terrible, terrible thing. But, I think families struggle with, "My kid is a little weird." My kid is different."
[19:50:00] I mean they are just little kids, I will say 7 or 8-year-olds, they are kind of delusional -- We encourage them to believe in Santa Claus
and the tooth fairy. If the kids are watching, not to say that that is not real, right? And, so, then, they get to an age where they have a little
bit more organized thinking. How can you blame the parents? You look like you do.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: I am stunned and astonished every day by the lack of sophistication that parents have when it comes to their kids medical and
emotional health. It is stunning.
(AUDIENCE APLLAUDING)
All you got to do -- and there is Obamacare now. There is health care reform. All you need to do is see a health care professional. Just ask
questions. These are medical problems with medical solutions.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: In this case, after the stabbing, Morgan was taken into custody. She was interrogated. Here is what she told police about what she thought
of her own mental health at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DETECTIVE: What do you think should happen to somebody that stabs somebody else?
MORGAN GEYSER, FAN OF SLENDER MAN: I expected like I would either get put into some sort of weird place or I expected I would either get put into
prison or an insane asylum. I did not know which to expect. I do not think I am insane, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, of course, a feature of more severe mental illness, Danine, is loss of insight. The person with the illness does not believe or
understandthat they have the illness.
MANETTE: Now, here is what I do not understand. We have two girls that were led by some cartoon creature to stab someone 19 times. One girl is
getting mental health care. What is going on with the other one?
PINSKY: I wonder myself. Because the other one, in a weird way is almost more guilty, in a weird way.
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: And, I do not want -- again, I do not want to --
MANETTE: She is going to stay in a juvenile hall?
PINSKY: And, why are they both being tried as adults, Lisa? What is that about?
ATTY. BLOOM: It is because we live in a sick country that does this to kids. I am sorry. I do not believe in trying young people. 12-year-olds
as adults? We are the only developed country that does this. We are moving away from it. But, when there is a horrific crime, we do not know
how to separate our anger from the fact that these are still little kids who need help.
PINSKY: Yes. And, one of them is very ill. Mark?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Yes, that is my concern. And, here is the situation that could happen. She is tried as an adult. The standard to reach, number
one, OK, you have the schizophrenia. You got the mental defect or disease, but next part is, did not know right from wrong.
She had a statement like we just heard, "Yes, I thought I would go to prison." "Ah, that is enough," the prosecutor say. "She knew she might go
to prison because she did something wrong. And, now she could spend the rest of your life in prison."
ATTY. BLOOM: Yes. She cannot sign a contract legally. She cannot vote. She cannot drink. She cannot drive, but we are going to put her in prison
for 10, 20, 30 years?
ATTY. EIGLARSH: But, Lisa, the flip side is, "Well, we are going to let her out in 15 years and now she comes after one of our kids, you know?"
ATTY. BLOOM: Not if she gets treatment.
PINSKY: Yes. I was going to say she could be successfully treated. It is a tough case. The other one concerns me --
MANETTE: That is the other one -- what happened to her?
PINSKY: She can get swept into the delusions of another child. What is up next for her? What cult is she going to join? I mean this is this kind of
phenomenon. But, then again, you identify these things early enough, they can be treated. I mean, are the judged enlightened about this? Are they
likely to refer for care rather than jail?
ATTY. BLOOM: No.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Public opinion, first of all, motivates a lot of judges. They are very concerned. Even if they think it is the right thing to do,
they are not going to in the re-election because they are saying, you know, you slapped them on the wrist.
PINSKY: All right, I got more of these kid`s interrogation right after the break. Be right with you.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): Luring their 12-year-old friend into the woods, police say, stabbing her 19 times. The plan, the attack,
the motive all to please the fictitious horror character, Slender Man, created in 2009 in an online contest. The character who preys on children
has taken on a life of its own with thousands of pictures, videos and stories posted online.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, one of the girls accused of planning the Slender Man stabbing is being treated for early onset schizophrenia. And, let me be super
clear, we are not justifying the behavior. We are trying to understand the behavior. How a 12-year-old can do something so heinous, because her brain
does not work right.
She has a disease called schizophrenia, where she believes the things that she does have meaning when you give her medication. And, treatment of
schizophrenia, that stops. Not a justification, it is an understanding.
As we have been discussing, she is still in big, big trouble. Back with Danine, Lisa and Mark. As you said, she is probably going to go to prison
because they will not be able to prove insanity anyway.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Listen, I was watching you and I am going, "I would hire him. He is an amazing witness." That was passionate, that was wonderful.
I could have used you in my last trial. I needed you.
PINSKY: I am tired of people saying, "We are justifying." I am not justifying anything.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: Correct.
PINSKY: I am understanding how humans do horrible things. I could not understand much of the forensic file case. I do not understand that at
all.
ATTY. BLOOM: But, you know what else is part of the explanation , though, we have to give some attention to this online content --
PINSKY: Yes.
ATTY. BLOOM: -- that these little girls are looking at, clearly age inappropriate for them.
PINSKY: Yes.
ATTY. BLOOM: And, it just underscores how important it is that parents have to be aware of what your kids are looking at online. I mean, left
them in the other room, you have to go to look at their browser history and you got to talk to them about it.
MANETTE: That is right.
PINSKY: Especially at-risk youth. Those are the one -- this is not risk kids. The risk kids are one that go far beyond what they would have done
had it not been for some of those motivating influences, right, Danine?
MANETTE: And, more than what they are seeing online is the fact that they are obviously not interacting with their parents enough for them to have
picked up on the signs that there is some type of mental health issue going on as well.
PINSKY: But, then, Denial. Denial.
MANETTE: So, there are still many things that are in play here. There is this how much time they are looking at stuff that they should not be
looking at and nobody is supervising them. Nobody is paying attention.
ATTY. EIGLARSH: One thing is to see what is online, the other thing is to talk about it. OK. If my kid is watching porn, that is one thing. I need
to sit and talk to them about it. I have got to talk to 19 kids, I cannot.
PINSKY: Right.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
ATTY. EIGLARSH: I am just saying.
PINSKY: But, I do want to be there when you talk to your son about porn. That is going to be interesting.
ATTY. BLOOM: Right. Yes.
PINSKY: By the way, I want to thank our staff for celebrating our new timeslot at 7:00 eastern by creating these amazing pictures --
(LAUGHING)
ATTY. BLOOM: Right. Hold it from behind.
PINSKY: Cookies with my face.
ATTY. BLOOM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh! That is too weird, too weird.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Reminder, we will be here at 7:00 from now on. We will see you next time.
(LAUGHING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[20:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(END)
END
