Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Forensic File Update on Susan Fassett Murder Case; Big Admission in Hulk Hogan Sex Tape Trial; Mother Exhibiting Clear Signs of Severe Mental Illness Kills Son and Herself. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 15, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAWN SILVERNAIL, MURDERED SUSAN FASSETT: We engaged in a threesome with the three of us there, that lasted maybe half an hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. WILLIAM PHELPS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: You have a lesbian affair. You have corruption. You know, you have murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A forensic files update. Susan Fassett walked to her car to drive home. Shots rang out. Police immediately looked at
Susan`s husband Jeff. Jeff Fassett learned his wife, Susan, was having an affair with Fred Andros, a man with a terrible reputation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. ARTHUR BOKYO, INVESTIGATOR: What the hell else was going to go on here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: It is Gawkers turn to call witnesses in the Hulk Hogan`s sex tape lawsuit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Did you think showing the size of Hulk Hogan`s penis was newsworthy. And your answer was, "In the case of this, I would
not call it exactly newsworthy. I would say it was more to add some color to my commentary."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A.J. DAULERIO, FORMER GAWKER EDITOR: I was amused by it. I decided I was going to write about what I had seen on the tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hulk Hogan wants $100 million.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY BOLLEA, AKA "HULK HOGAN", PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: I walk out of the courtroom, and first thing "Hey Hulk, good luck on the sex tape." I mean,
before all this happened, that was never mentioned to me. That was never constantly thrown in my face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: A Denver father grieves the loss of his 5- year-old son. The sleeping boy was shot and killed by his mother. Ken Kreuscher says his ex-wife`s behavior had become increasingly paranoid and
violent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Now, he wants answers. Did child welfare drop the ball?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC INTRO)
DR. DREWS PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: We begin with our "Forensic File" update. And, again, this is a first this week, and we will begin
every show this way. We are talking about Dawn Silvernail still in jail for the murder.
And, tonight, you will hear from Dawn, herself, in a never before seen interview. Some of you may in fact feel end up feeling sorry for her by
the end of this show. The author of a book about Dawn who has interviewed her extensively joins us in a minute. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(GUN SHOTS BEING FIRED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Susan Fassett shot to death as she left choir practice. At first, her husband seemed like the likely suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. BOKYO: We are pretty comfortable that Jeff Facet might be involved here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But as police dug deeper, they soon zoned in on another man with a bad reputation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Fred Andros was a self-centered, mean, nasty prick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Apparently, the two were having an affair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES KARIC, SENIOR INVESTIGATOR (RETIRED): Within 48 hours of her death, he had sexual relations with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: And, that is not all. Police discovered there was another woman involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: He introduced me to her, and we talked for a few minutes, and then we went upstairs and we engaged in a threesome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Police believe Susan grew tired of Fred and ended the relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. BOKYO: Given Fred`s ego, nobody was going to say no to Fred. Nobody would break up with Fred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: He threatened my entire family, and told me that if I would not take care of this problem with Susan for him, something would happen to
somebody that I loved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator; Loni Coombs, former Prosecutor; Mike Eiglarsh, Trial Attorney at SpeaktoMark.Com and M.
William Phelps, author of "Deadly Secrets. He is an investigative journalist, who covered this case. His new book is one breath away.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Fred Andros is sentenced to 25 years to life. He died of a heart attack in prison, thank God. Dawn Silvernail is sentenced to 18 years to life. She
is eligible for parole next year. And, Mark, do you think she has a shot at that, parole?
MARK EIGLARSH, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I do, if they actually give parole to anyone. Because the argument is going to be, this was an isolated incident
for which she shown remorse because it appears that she genuinely feels bad. --
PINSKY: What do you mean --
EIGLARSH: -- I do not know if that true or not.
PINSKY: Wait. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! What do you mean give parole to anyone? What does that mean?
EIGLARSH: Well, if they are giving parole to anyone. In other words, if they really are giving parole and it is not just symbolic. You come in for
the parole board, and they say, "No, no, no." If you are really going to pick someone out. You think of someone who has done significant time.
It was an isolated incident and in otherwise exemplary life, assuming that is the case here. And, if she has shown extreme remorse for what she has
done, you consider it. I am not saying I am advocating it, I am saying if that is the case --
PINSKY: Loni is nodding yes. Danine is a little less forgiving. What do you think?
(LAUGHING)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, I do not know whether or not he actually was behind this, quite honestly.
PINSKY: Oh.
MANETTE: I am really interested to hear the defense that they put forward in this case. Because just looking at the entire frame work of infidelity
and how it works, I am more likely to believe that kind of decided that she wanted Susan out of the picture on her own, because she had been with this
man for 20 years. He had lots of other affairs with lots of other women --
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: The timing of it, though, that it appeared Susan was trying to get back with her husband, which would have taken her
out of the picture. Dawn could have had this guy all to herself. And, you know, Dawn from the beginning, she started to cooperate with the police.
She told them what happened. She testified against the guy in trial --
[19:05:07] EIGLARSH: Does these two ladies know more than the jury who heard the evidence?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You know what, Mark? Mark, Mark, I want to point out --
EIGLARSH: Why have the justice system? We have these two.
PINSKY: By the way --
EIGLARSH: Come on!
PINSKY: They are pointing a finger at a woman -- how a woman thinks that is what you are really saying. And, Mark, you and I will not say anything.
(LAUGHING)
EIGLARSH: Sure.
PINSKY: And, by the way, this setup they seem to know more, because they have an extra x chromosome. And, Dawn seemed to -- Look, even Rhoda, our
stage manager is saying, "Yes, that is right!"
(LAUGHING)
EIGLARSH: Rhoda nose.
PINSKY: Dawn seemed to take responsibility for what she did in an interview on "Investigation Discovery." I want to show you that. Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: I hate the thought that he did this to me. I hate the thought that I am here. I hate the thought that she is dead. Because she did not
deserve to die. Who the hell was I to play God and decide, this man showed me a picture of my son and said he could have him taken care of, which
obviously he could because he got me to take care of his other dirty business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There is something about her, is not there?
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: William, tell me how Susan met Fred. Tell me about that relationship. And, let us see if we can pick apart Danine`s theory.
M. WILLIAM PHELPS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: That is easy to pick apart. They met at the town of Poughkeepsie. They both worked for the town of
Poughkeepsie. Fred was a water superintendent and Susan worked for the town. And, you know, the story goes, they bumped into each other in the
hallway.
But, you know, I can tell you knowing the kind of man Fred is that he sought her out and he went after her, because for some reason and maybe Dr.
Drew you can explain this. Fred was a ladies man and he seemed to attract the ladies. I have no idea why, because the man looks like a troll.
PINSKY: Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PHELPS: But, he seemed to attract the ladies. I mean he had an affair with Susan for many years.
PINSKY: How about Dawn, what was your take on her? Because she is the one really we kind of focused on in here in this block.
PHELPS: Well, look. Dawn, I have interviewed -- I am just finishing up interviews right now with a serial killer for five years. I have been
interviewing him three times a week. I have interviewed scores of killers including Dawn Silvernail.
And, out of all of those killers, I can tell you that Dawn, I believe, is remorseful. I believe she got sucked into this. And, I truly believe that
Fred made her think that he was going to have her son killed if she did not kill.
PINSKY: And, William, one other thing I got to ask. Whenever I see super crazy behavior, I would have to ask, were substances involved? Were any
drugs involved with this in anyone`s part?
PHELPS: Not that I know of, which is, you know, scary in and of itself.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHELPS: And, look, we got to put into perspective what Dawn Silvernail did. I mean she put a mask on. She loaded a weapon. She laid down in her
vehicle. Put the sit down and waited for Susan to come out at church choir practice with her friends.
And, while Susan walked into her car, she unloaded a 9mm weapon into this woman. So, you know, she had to have some sort of dark side in her to be
able to do this. I looked for it. I could not find it anywhere. Some sort of past, you know? I could not find it.
PINSKY: Well, yes, I totally agree with you. That is not what you call normal behavior. I do not care what she is being threatened with.
COOMBS: But with normal way to kill, when you are killing somebody.
MANETTE: Right.
PINSKY: But, there is so much goofiness in this story, the craziness of the relationship, the threesome, the clandestine quality, the manipulation.
We will keep going with this.
And, later, I got a mother that kills her little boy, then herself. The father is asking why no one answered his calls for help. Back after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Dawn Silvernail admitted to having multiple threesomes with Fred Andros and Susan Fassett.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: We went upstairs and we engaged in that threesome with the three of us there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Susan, who was married with two children, eventually broke things off with Fred and was working on rebuilding her
relationship with her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: I never had any contact with Susan Fassett unless Fred called me and set it up and we met with Fred in Fred`s presence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That did not sit well with Fred. And, he coerced dawn into murdering Susan. Shooting her six times as she left
choir practice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And, we are continuing our "Forensic File" update as we will open every show in our new time slot. Susan Fassett shot to death by Dawn
Silvernail, ordered to do it by this Fred Andros character. They were all three involved in a threesome sexual, whatever the hell, for a long time.
Back with Danine, Loni, Mark and William. And, I want to get right to the question from our audience. Because we were talking before the break,
William asked me, "Why these woman would be attracted to this guy?" And, that is a mysterious thing, but you have a comment about that? Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, there is this whole thing with guys who are abusive and abusive relationships, and people wonder why are
the women attracted to these guys. And, these guys have this air of confidence and these women lack the confidence. So, it is almost like that
guy is their voice for them.
PINSKY: They mistake strength for abusiveness. They feel like as though that strength is going to protect them, because of course they had a dad
that directed all that abuse towards them, typically, and now they want someone strong to protect them, who of course, will oblige them by
directing the horribleness back towards the woman again. It is awful. It is awful.
COOMBS: Yes. It is not about the woman than, you know, how attractive the guy is, it is what they are looking for. It is what they are missing in
their lives. You know, what they are --
PINSKY: It is how they feel about themselves.
COOMBS: Right. Right.
PINSKY: Now, Danine, this guy had been sleeping with these two women for four years. This was not just a one night thing, right?
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: This was a longstanding infidelity. You are an expert in infidelity.
MANETTE: I certainly am.
PINSKY: What is going on there? I mean --
MANETTE: And, that is why I do not have any questions about the fact that Dawn killed her and that she laid and wait and all that. My question is
why she killed her. And, I honestly think that she wanted her out of the way.
[19:15:07] PINSKY: Now, she claimed that Fred would pay her $350 --
MANETTE: But, she is the only one alive now, as everyone else is dead.
PINSKY: OK. She claimed that he would pay her $350 every time he wanted to have sex with Susan, so three of them would get together. He would
videotape it. It apparently happens many times. And, then, she had a debt to him that she said he would exonerate if she would proceed with --
MANETTE: And, I read all that, and I heard all that, but I am just looking at her and I am listening to her talk and I am just not buying her story.
I think that she made the decision unilaterally to take Susan out. Whether it was because she was, you know, in love with Fred and wanted to make him
happy or what, but I do not believe that he put her up to that.
PINSKY: William, straighten us out here, where is it at? When you talk to this woman many times, what do you think?
PHELPS: Well, Dawn was happily married, and how can she be happily married if she is having these lesbian affairs being videotaped.
PINSKY: Yes.
PHELPS: Fred was hanging stuff over this woman`s head. I mean, she owed him money. Fred knew all of her secrets. There was even a time I found 20
years before this crime even took place, where Fred wanted to marry Dawn and Dawn denied him that. They knew each other many, many years before.
PINSKY: But, William -- William, does not that go along with Danine`s theory that she may have had a deep sort of weird love addiction to this
guy that she could not break?
SILVERNAIL: She hated this guy. This guy was a scumbag.
PINSKY: I got that.
SILVERNAIL: The biggest scumbag --
PINSKY: I got it.
SILVERNAIL: But nobody wanted to be around this guy. What he did was, he gained power and control over you by getting something over on you. That
is what Fred Andros did. Also, Fred had Dawn deliver envelopes for him to different people.
Dawn said, "I never knew what was in the envelopes, but I did it." Later on, of course, Fred says, "Well, you were delivering money, bribes for me."
So, you are in on this with me. So, there was a lot of power control for the whole thing.
COOMBS: And, remember too, when they did the analysis of all the phone calls and the beepers and stuff, it showed that he was the one that was
initiating contact to Dawn. And, he was the one that was kind of pushing the contact and telling her what to do. And, then after she killed Susan,
she went to a pay phone and she beeped him, this is back in beeper, to let him know that it had been done.
PINSKY: But, one thing I am going to say, I think, every night when we do these updates, everybody, is people need a simple life. Keep it simple,
everybody. The more sort of bizarre stuff, the more boundary violations you bring in, the more opportunity there is for unanticipated emotions to
develop, unanticipated power imbalances to develop. An unanticipated relationship with people who may not be who you think they are. Mark.
EIGLARSH: Well, I am making two points. One, I would appreciate it, not to bring up the detail of this threesome again. It makes me nauseous. I
do not know. This particular one. I do not know what it is. Call me shallow.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
The second point I like to make is I want to give credit to the defense lawyers here. Now, if the case was pending, everybody would come after me
for defending anyone of these two.
But, for them to be where they are, him not necessarily in the grave but her in the prison, you needed a competent defense lawyer to advocate on
their behalf. The system worked because due process was afforded and now they are where they are supposed to be.
PINSKY: Audience. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: OK. So, I am going to ask this question. Why not the police? Why did she not call the police? And, I
will tell you why. --
PINSKY: Dawn?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes.
PINSKY: To get herself out of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: And, I will tell you this. If she is mad at him, a woman scorned.
PINSKY: Well, that is Danine`s theory.
MANETTE: That is my theory.
PINSKY: That is Danine`s theory.
MANETTE: But, also, in response to why she did not call the police, in my job, I have been a criminal investigator for 26 years. And, you would be
surprised at the number of women who are prostitutes and are beaten and abused by their pimps, but will go straight back in and testify on their
behalf and do whatever they can in order to support them and stay on their side. It is just some type of --
PINSKY: Obviously, Stockholm Syndrome, everybody.
MANETTE: Exactly. It always happens all the time.
EIGLARSH: It is not the guys looks that drew these women in. We have eliminated that as a possibility.
MANETTE: Mark, how dare you. The guy shot himself, he was a looker.
(LAUGHING)
EIGLARSH: To be real, obviously, it is his communication, his ability to control --
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: -- to play mind games.
MANETTE: That is right.
EIGLARSH: That caused someone to commit the ultimate act.
MANETTE: They say, "Do not go for their heart, go for their mind." And, if you go for a woman`s mind, you have her. That is what I hear.
PINSKY: Hang on. William wants to follow up. William, go ahead.
PHELPS: This is what he did to Dawn. He took pictures of her son when her son was working, when her son was walking with his kids. He took pictures
of her aunt. And, he showed her these pictures.
And, he said, "Listen, dawn, listen. If you do not do what I am telling you to do, those people, they are going to die." So, Dawn was kind of his
puppet after that, she believed him.
PINSKY: All right. More "Forensic File" update coming up. And, later, a mother who exhibited clear signs of severe mental illness ends up killing
her son and herself. Why could not, cannot we prevent tragedies like this. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: I rolled down the window, and when she reached up to fasten her seatbelt, I pulled the gun up and I fired, and I shot her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dawn Silvernail who we saw there -- again, we are doing our "Forensic File" update. She murdered Susan Fassett in a church parking
lot. But, that woman says Fred Andros made her do it. The devil made her do it, literally in this case.
Back with Danine, Loni, Mark and William. And, Dawn says the night Susan was murdered she called Fred Andros even though she was supposedly,
allegedly, she claims she was getting back with her husband. Watch this from "Investigation Discovery."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:00] SILVERNAIL: They said she was trying to get back with her husband and they were trying to rebuild their relationship. And, I hope
that is true. But, she called him from the church to tell him that she was leaving. If she was leaving him for her husband, why would she do that?
If her aim was to sober tie with him, why would she do that? Why would she still continue to see this man that she did not want to be with? What hold
did he have over her? OK. I mean it is just like, people say to me, "Well, how did he manipulate you? How did he manipulate her?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Danine, I think that is a little piece of evidence for your theory, which she seemed upset --
MANETTE: Real mad.
PINSKY: -- that Susan is still contacting Fred, right?
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: Real mad.
MANETTE: Real mad. She had put in 20 years with Fred. As, sorry as she is or she had put in with him, and now here this blonde is going to come
and she is probably thinking that the blonde is playing games and trying to say, "I am going to go back with my husband when I am really not." Uh-uh,
she is mad in that tape. You can see it all over her face.
PINSKY: You get it, there is a little something there, do not you think?
PHELPS: No, not at all. Here is a piece of evidence that occurred to me.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Go ahead.
PHELPS: It has been a while since I wrote this book, so give me a break.
PINSKY: All right.
PHELPS: So, listen, after the murder, Dawn drives around the corner, drives about two miles from the murder scene, she puts the ski mask, the
bullets and the gun behind a tree. And, then an hour later Fred Andros, the troll, the scumbag drives over there, picks up the tools to the murder
and he discards them. Now, if she was doing it on her own, why would she do that?
PINSKY: Now, we are not saying she did it on her own so much, but her motivation may not have been purely manipulation and fear of her son being
killed or money, that kind of stuff. It is more of -- after all, she is paying an awful lot of attention to the fact that, "Oh, my, Susan is still
talking to my man." It sounded like that a little bit. But --
PHELPS: I do not think she said it like that.
MANETTE: Yes, she did.
PINSKY: And, to Danine is all worked up about this.
PHELPS: I do not like to defend a murderer.
PINSKY: No. I am with you. Listen, the guy is a scumbag.
EIGLARSH: I will.
PINSKY: She is a murderer.
EIGLARSH: Yes, I will.
PINSKY: Yes, Mark, will defend anybody.
EIGLARSH: Because, here is the question, what does it really matter? At the end of the day, what does it matter? She did what she did and is being
held responsible.
MANETTE: She should not be paroled. She should not ever be paroled.
EIGLARSH: Now, that is the issue then.
MANETTE: She should stay in jail.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: But, Danine, tell me what you said during the break about the number of homicide cases --
MANETTE: Out of five homicide cases on my desk right now, three are involving some type of a love triangle situation or suspected love triangle
situation. This stuff brings anger.
PINSKY: Everybody, take notes. What do you say? Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, what I have to say is that, Charles Manson was a person who manipulated lot f women.
PINSKY: Yes .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: He used control techniques. And, he basically learned it when he was a pimp. How to control women. And, I
truly believe that Dawn Silvernail was actually controlled by this man. The behavior, particularly, actually, going and hiding the material and
reporting back to him that is someone who is being controlled.
PINSKY: It almost sounds like the robot going through the action. It is so cold blooded. Now, to William`s point, I want to show you Dawn becoming
emotional when she talks about her remorse. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SILVERNAIL: They look at me like I am a monster. And, maybe I am, I do not know. Maybe I am. But, I am a monster, who is filled with remorse,
and I feel for the people I hurt when I did allow this man to manipulate me into doing what I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, "Forensic Files" updates, we are going to do it every day. We are on our new time slot. We are going to spend time looking at these
stories that you are so preoccupied with. We are going to break them out with our experts. We are going to feedback and follow up from some of the
principles involved with this.
And, the one thing I keep saying over and over again in these stories is, people, keep it simple. Do not violate boundaries. If you are having
urges -- the simplest thing of all, is if you are having urges outside of your marriage, end your marriage and then go do whatever you are going to
do.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Next up, I have a big admission ahead in the Hulk Hogan sex tape trial. Will Gawker have in fact to pay him $100 million? Back after this .
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:30:0] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Did you think showing the size of Hulk Hogan`s penis was newsworthy. And your answer was, "In the case of this, I would
not call it exactly newsworthy. I would say it was more to add some color to my commentary." That was your answer, correct?
A.J. DAULERIO, FORMER GAWKER EDITOR: Yes, that was a pretty sloppy answer, but true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLEA: My problem is, is this whole -- the videotape that you guys put out. It lives forever. It will be there forever on the internet. That is
the problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Did you want to also show some portions of sexual activity?
DAULERIO: Yes, very brief portions, just to clarify and confirm that they were in fact having sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK DENTON, GAWKER MEDIA FOUNDER: This story was true and interesting, and we would absolutely publish it again in a heartbeat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What do you guys think? It is Hulk Hogan`s sex tape legitimate news story? Gossip website, Gawker, says posting the salacious video was
simply good journalism. Back with us, Danine, Loni, Marg.
And, joining us by phone, I got CNN Money Reporter, Tom Kludt, who is following the trial in Florida. Now, Tom, Hogan`s legal team claims Gawker
is getting rich or does generally gets rich off the misery of others. Is the jury biting on that argument?
TOM KLUDT, CNN MONEY MEDIA REPORTER (via phone): Well, you know, as I told you last week, it is really hard to get a read on this jury. They have
been remarkably stealthy throughout. But, I will say, I think their decision is ultimately going to hinge on just how receptive they are to
Nick Denton`s view of how much privacy should be afforded a public figure, which he articulated on the stand today.
Denton said there should be a balance, but he believes that ultimately the public`s right to know trump`s the celebrities` right to privacy. It was
really a typical day here in St. Petersburg with them on the stand. For the defense, Denton`s testimony represented an opportunity to challenged
the narrative that has been pushed by Hogan, that the website is salacious. It is reckless and conflicts the real human suffering.
[19:35:10] Denton and his attorney set out to showcase Gawker`s breadth. They discussed various scoops that have had nothing to do with that. They
talked about powerful first person essays on mental illness. And, the fact that memorable expose on former Toronto Mayor Rob Ford`s crack/cocaine use.
Hogan seemed of course strongly challenged this idea. And, they pointed to Gawker`s history of publishing explicit photos of others celebrity. And
the plaintiff`s attorney rejected the notion that the publication of Hogan`s sex tape represented a legitimate journalistic pursuit.
But, perhaps, the most memorable moment of cross examination came when Hogan`s attorney forced him to read excerpts from the commentary that
accompanied the video in 2012, much which as you can imagine was quite graphic. At this point, Hogan buried his head in his hands as that read
out loud.
PINSKY: And, unnecessary. Tom, thank you. Great reporting. But, Mark, you were nodding your head during this, as though you agreed with the
public`s desire for this kind of garbage. Trumping this --
EIGLARSH: You are so perceptive, Drew. How did you see that in me?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Mark, Mark, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: My question is -- let me ask you further question without putting you on the defensive. Is this going to be an important trial in
establishing that line?
EIGLARSH: Yes. OK. Immoral, different issue, different day. Legal, which is what this jury is deciding, no way the way that we now make
gossip, part of news. And, let us just assume for a second, these jurors find that it is not newsworthy under the first amendment, what are his
damages, $100 million?
COOMBS: That is a separate question, though.
MANETTE: Right.
PINSKY: What about Erin Andrews? Erin Andrews got $60 million.
EIGLARSH: Different issue. She went through --
PINSKY: What is different.
EIGLARSH: What she went through affected her forever. I do not think it should be that much. --
PINSKY: Mark, you are sexist.
EIGLARSH: Him, a sex tape?
PINSKY: You are sexist.
EIGLARSH: Oh, now, we are not going to watch Hulk Hogan?
PINSKY: No. You are sexist, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Hello.
PINSKY: No, Erin Andrews has a huge career after she was seen on those videotapes. But, you are being sexist. Hulk Hogan says he has PTSD. He
said it under oath, on the stand, and you are thinking --
EIGLARSH: Saying it so, does not make it so.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You are calling him a liar?
COOMBS: OK. Look. Look.
PINSKY: You are calling him a liar.
COOMBS: I think Mark is confusing two things. One is the legal question, is Hulk Hogan`s penis newsworthy? I think --
EIGLARSH: She said it.
COOMBS: That is right.
EIGLARSH: She is right. I won the bet.
(LAUGHING)
COOMBS: And, I think our society at this point is going to say, "No, we do not need to be seeing this. This is not a public concern. It is not
newsworthy." So, you make that decision. Then you get to damages, and of course it is not worth $100 million.
I mean he has been putting his sex life out there in this character, however he wants to phrase it. So, I do not see a lot of damage there, if
he has some PTSD, maybe something there, but it is a different question.
PINSKY: Well, first of all, Loni, I am ashamed. I lost the bet. So, what I want to show you is -- I am ashamed of you. So, this is actually more to
the point. These are the people who write and distribute these stories.
This is the guy who wrote the story. His name is A.J. Daulerio. He shocked the jury when he testified that the only sex tape he would not
publish was one involving a child under the age of 4. Look at him. Talk a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Can you imagine a situation where a celebrity sex tape would not be newsworthy?
A.J. DAULERIO, FORMER EDITOR OF "GAWKER MEDIA": If they were a child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Under what age?
DAULERIO: 4.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Do you think the footage shows you are being sarcastic?
DAULERIO: I absolutely do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Are you laughing there?
DAULERIO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: You are laughing.
DAULERIO: Yes, I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ATTORNEY: Do you think that is a funny topic to joke about?
DAULERIO: No, not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: See, I would like to believe that, that was tongue-in-cheek. And, he said that it was tongue-in-cheek --
PINSKY: He was under oath in a deposition.
MANETTE: But, the thing is, to me, it is not about whether or not --
PINSKY: Why is not he in contempt of court at least.
(LAUGHING)
MANETTE: It is not about whether Hulk Hogan`s member is worth $100 million. I think that this is a precedent setting thing.
PINSKY: It is a privacy issue.
MANETTE: I think they should not be allowed to benefit off of breaking into people is rooms and taking pictures of them --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Against their will.
MANETTE: -- and telling them against their will.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: They did not do it. Hold on a second.
PINSKY: Mark.
EIGLARSH: Hold on.
PINSKY: Mark. You are on the media.
EIGLARSH: They did not do it, someone gave them the material --
MANETTE: That is what they say.
EIGLARSH: Let me finish it.
MANETTE: You do not think they like that?
EIGLARSH: Let me finish. And, then the question becomes, is it newsworthy, not 20 years ago, but under today`s standard. You pack this
jury with youngsters, people who think that gossip is news, they lose this lawsuit.
MANETTE: They should not benefit. They should be bankrupted by this lawsuit. They should not benefit from violating people`s privacy whether
it is a celebrities or whether --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: I think, Mark --
EIGLARSH: But, me and my wife, yes. Hulk Hogan who is opened up his life to the world --
MANETTE: But not his pants. He has not opened up his junk to the world.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, by the way, he ultimately --
EIGLARSH: Penis? We are hearing this from them.
PINSKY: But, here is the deal, he opened up his character, Hulk Hogan to the world. He did not open Terry to the world. You and four of us are who
we are in the media, so what, everything is fair game that we do in our life, is that what you are suggesting?
EIGLARSH: No.
PINSKY: And, listen, I am going to tell you something. There is a backlash underway. There is a backlash. And, I think you are accepting
the status quo that has been in this country for the last five years, which is anything goes. I think people are sick of that, and people are
disgusted by it.
MANETTE: Right. Yes.
PINSKY: And, I think people want to see a jury take some action on this. And, Mark, this jury is six people. What is going on in Florida? How do
they have jury of six? How does it work? It is four women and two men.
[19:40:07] EIGLARSH: I am being held responsible for our legal laws?
(LAUGHING)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yes, you practice in that state. What is going on there?
EIGLARSH: Let us make the distinction between what I think is appropriate and what I think is jury may find.
PINSKY: Six jurors? Explain that to us. First I heard that I said, "What is going on in Florida?
EIGLARSH: That is how it is. Those are the rules.
PINSKY: In Florida?
EIGLARSH: Any other questions? Yes. Yes.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You can put Two people, zero people?
EIGLARSH: In a capital murder case, you will get 12, Drew. Any other questions?
PINSKY: OK. All right. Go ahead. What can I say, you are finish.
EIGLARSH: I am just making the distinction that this is -- because I get the hate mail. "Mark, you feel like --" No, I am making the distinction
that this jury can find that nowadays this is newsworthy based upon what TMZ puts out there --
MANETTE: Not OK.
EIGLARSH: -- What other website puts out there.
COOMBS: I think jurors are right. You are living behind the times. I think if you are living behind the times, I think that the young people now
see there is a difference between reality show stars and their scripted shows and their private life.
MANETTE: Right.
COOMBS: They are going to say, this was his private life as opposed to his character of Hulk Hogan.
EIGLARSH: And, you may be right, and maybe I am right.
PINSKY: And, we will see.
EIGLARSH: We do not know.
PINSKY: We will see. Actually, I will leave it to that jury. And, I have faith that jury will find something smart. Juries do tend to find --
EIGLARSH: Really?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Maybe. It could be my point, maybe not in Florida. I am just saying.
(LAUGHING)
I am mortified by this case, I got to tell you. I really am a little upset about it, because I just think the degree to which the press is running
amok. By press, I mean the brags, they feel completely -- they have no moral compass, none, zero. It is just whatever is flapping in the wind
that they can get their hands on, make money from. I do not think that is the country I want to live in.
EIGLARSH: Even, the National Enquirer and the Starr for decades --
PINSKY: Yes. And, they straighten it out. They straighten their ship out. And, they have been very careful to substantiate, they have been
careful about what they put in. All right, stop it.
A 5-year-old is murdered by his own mother, who was clearly mentally ill. How can this happen? How can it be avoided? We got to do better. We have
answers after the break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: A Denver father grieves the loss of his 5- year-old son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN KREUSCHER, FATHER OF A 5-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO WAS SHOT BY HER WIFE: He fought for his life, over 12 hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The sleeping boy was shot and killed by his mother. Ken Kreuscher says his ex-wife`s behavior had become increasingly
paranoid and violent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY KREUSCHER, A 5-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO WAS KILLED BY HER MOTHER: She punched me right there.
KEN KREUSCHER: Who punched you?
KENNY KREUSCHER: Mommy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Despite complaints to Child Protective Services and an on going battle to gain full custody, Ken Kreuscher says he
felt helpless.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN KREUSCHER: With erratic mental illness everywhere and no one really helped me. I am here because I do not want this to happen to anybody else.
It is not right what they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: This should not happen. After having shot her sleeping son, just days away from his 6th birthday, Sara Atkinson then turned the .22 caliber
rifle on herself, police call it appropriately a murder suicide. Back with Danine, Loni and Mark. And, joining us, I have Erica America, T.V. and
radio host. And, Danine, you have a strong feeling about this one?
MANETTE: You know, I am not a very emotional person, but this case really gets to the core of me. It hurts me so deeply, because it underscores the
disparity between the way mothers and fathers are treated in the legal system, honestly, when they are going for custody.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, I truly believe that if a woman had come through the court and professed that her husband or her ex had been doing this to the child, the
jury or the judge or whoever would have taken quicker action.
PINSKY: Mark.
MANETTE: I honestly believe.
EIGLARSH: I agree 100 percent. And, number one, I want to know who this child protective worker is.
PINSKY: Well, yes.
EIGLARSH: I want to see her face. I want to make sure that she is reprimanded, fired potentially. I do not want this to happen to anyone
else.
PINSKY: Not only that. Let me show you. If you guys could scroll to the statement from this woman, where the father goes and tries to talk to
someone in social services? And, she says, basically, "Do not bother me with things like this ever again."
COOMBS: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Erica, you and I have been talking about this stuff for how many years now in this program. When we see -- you know, we are always talking
about "Say something, ask for help." Here it is.
I am going to play you this video. You are going to be astonished. Ken Kreuscher, the father says he actually met with the CPS worker, showed her
the video of the bruises and the child saying it is from mommy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN KREUSCHER: And, she stood in front of me and pointed in my closet and said, unless your kid is being stuck in a closet every day, or beaten every
day, I am not going to do anything about it. And, if you call back, if I hear bad from you about this kind of stuff, I am going to take him from you
and her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Erica America, what do we do with this? This woman is becoming psychotic right in front of that guy`s eyes. He goes to the appropriate
services for help and listen -- just imagine how he felt?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, absolutely. I mean it is clear that the system failed him in this case. I mean from all the articles that I
read about this, he reached out and out and out. The only thing I did not hear about was kind of like, where was the rest of the family?
Did he have anybody kind of help him out on his side? Any support system that will also kind of like, "This woman is getting a little out of
control, what can we do?" Either way, he did not get the help from the system.
PINSKY: Erica, you bring up a great point. It is more than her getting a little out of control. But, listen, this guy says his ex-wife, this woman
who is dead now, believed there were bombs hidden in their home, cameras inside the son`s shoes. I mean, Erica, she is floridly psychotic. She
should be on a hold, let alone taking care of a kid.
AMERICA: Right. So, we hear these stories all the time, whether it is someone who then goes, and you know, shoots in a school or whether it is
someone who kills their family member.
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: We all basically need to know, what are the characteristics of someone who is going -- becoming psychotic, and we need to know that if it
does not work with just a family services thing, you need to go to the police. You have to go right to the police. It is that serious. It cannot
just, "Oh, they are not doing anything, so I am going to let him continue to live with his mother."
[19:50:19] PINSKY: Yes. Yes, Erica. Yes, and we cover the Slender Man killings yesterday. We found out now that the 15-year-old was developing
psychosis. When people see or hearing voices, when they are seeing things, when they have bizarre beliefs, paranoid beliefs about the
television talking to them, the radio beaming thoughts into their head, the phones, and the vents, whatever it might be. Loni, you have comment?
COOMBS: I mean, all of those statements should be red flags to --
PINSKY: But, they need to get a home, maybe in a hospital.
COOMBS: Right. Right. But, the sad thing about this, it wasn`t just the father. There was a private investigator that was hired by the mom, who
said that she wanted to develop a claim that she thought that the dad was abusing her son. The private investigator look into it, not only found no
abuse by the father but started getting concerned about the mothers behavior and talked to the mother.
And, the mother at some point said, "I am afraid the dad is going to take my son. I will kill my son before I let him have that happened." Once she
heard that, the private investigator tried to get something done about the mother. The mother was getting a restraining order from the private
investigator and nobody ever listened with the private investigator, either.
PINSKY: So, the private investigator was --
COOMBS: Trying to get alert and saying that this mother --
PINSKY: Who got the restraining order, the investigator or the mom?
COOMBS: No. The mother -- because she wanted to get the investigator out of the story, because the investigator is catching on to what was going on
with the mother.
EIGLARSH: So, night after night, you are telling people, "Speak up if you see that type of behavior."
PINSKY: Yes. I know. I know.
EIGLARSH: In this instance, that was done.
COOMBS: Yes.
EIGLARSH: It was done. So, the system -- there is a problem there.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
MANETTE: And, see this is why when I see the amber alert about a father having taken their child, I am not so quick to judge. Because when you see
an amber alert and you think, "Oh, this father has taken off with his child," rather than being so quick to judge, you have to sit and think, "I
wonder why." Because it could be a situation.
EIGLARSH: So, Danine, same set of facts, switch genders. Do you think that if the woman reported psychotic behavior they would have --
MANETTE: Absolutely. I do. I do. And, that is the sad part.
EIGLARSH: That is right.
PINSKY: And, that is wrong.
MANETTE: That is true.
PINSKY: But, here is my thing. I do not want to cast any blame on this poor dad. But anyone else out there that sees anyone that they know
behaving like this, take them to the hospital immediately. And, if they do not go, you call a psychiatric assessment team or the cops. We are back
after this.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: A 5-year-old Kenny Kreuscher was driven to Montana by his mother last weekend. Saturday night, he shot Kenny in the
head while he slept before killing herself.
Kenny`s father says he has been fighting to save the boys since the couple broke up a few years ago. Kreuscher gave this what he call a long paper
trail of evidence to support claims Kenny`s mother is becoming increasingly paranoid and dangerous. And, the Denver Child Protection Services failed
to protect Kenny.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN KREUSCHER: I saw a huge marked bruise on him. He told me his mom punched him. I filed the report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY KREUSCHER: She punched me right here.
KEN KREUSCHER: Who punched you?
KENNY KREUSCHER: Mommy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, I have still more of that disturbing home video showing the boy`s bruise. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY KREUSCHER: She punches me like there.
KEN KREUSCHER: Who punches you?
KENNY KREUSCHER: Mommy.
KEN KREUSCHER: Why?
KENNY KREUSCHER: I hit her, too.
KEN KREUSCHER: You hit her?
KENNY KREUSCHER: Yeah. First. I hit her right like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, can you just imagine this? It is just like your mind bends.
EIGLARSH: Same way, I am back to where I was with the Casey Anthony case. I try not to allow myself to picture what that means, the loss of a child.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Same here. But, today, I found myself, literally, my eyes swelling, thinking of what it would be like to lose a child and that is why
I am so angered at the lack of action.
PINSKY: Again, so, the responsibility can go to anyone who doesn`t refer people like this, not this father. I am not going to put anything on him.
This guy has been struggling. It doesn`t refer the individual for medical care, the physicians and health care workers that are watching over that
person.
They have a direct responsibility to make sure that person isn`t running around psychotic, and then child protective services. But, Danine, are
they overworked, are they overburdened? Is that really how the system works?
MANETTE: And, Mark brought up a good point. He said earlier that he wants to know how the CPS worker was punished and what the ramifications of her
actions or inactions was. And, they are saying, "We can`t talk, we have privacy issues," but their client was the dead child. So, who is their
loyalty to now? Why, are they being quiet? I mean, their client is dead.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Well, to be fair, they, meaning social services, have employee responsibilities, too, right?
MANETTE: Yes.
PINSKY: And, so, that employee is being protected. It is a mess. It is a mess. The kid is dead.
EIGLARSH: It is one thing for one party to say, "She is acting psychotic." She then points a finger at him. It happens whether it is true or not.
COOMBS: All the time.
EIGLARSH: But when a child alleges that they have been hit by their parent, you bring someone in the room and you analyze it and see what is at
the root of it.
COOMBS: Right. And, that is the scariest thing is, you know, when the dad tried to do that and what the counsellor said was, "You know, you, guys are
both complaining about this. If either of you complain, I am just going to take the child away." I mean that is a lazy person. You get in there at
that point. You have the notice. You do your work. You figure out what is going on.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: All right. So, let me, once again, just to review what psychosis is, psychotic conditions are brain disorders, where you begin believing
delusional thoughts like you are Jesus Christ, you are Napoleon. You believe that there are thoughts being beamed into your head. You can be
grandiose.
You can believe all kinds of crazy things. You can believe Martians are landing and they are talking to you through the television. You can have
visual and auditory hallucinations. If somebody is seeing or hearing things that are not there, that is a medical emergency.
And then you can have multiple other symptomatologies around disorganized thoughts, distorted thoughts, distorted moods, please get medical help for
something like that. Everybody great job, panel. Audience, thanks for being here.
You can DVR this show then you can watch us anytime. We are here Monday through Thursday at 4:00 on the Pacific Coast, 7:00 on the East. We will
continue our forensic files review at the opening of our show. We will see you next time.
[20:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
END
