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Dr. Drew
Forensic Files Update; Glove That Sealed the Deal for O.J. Simpson`s Acquittal; LAPD Denying Reports That No DNA Found on Knife. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 16, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:20] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: It was a lifestyle of deception, sex and intrigue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEN FREDRIKSEN, FRIEND AND BUSINESS ASSOCIATE OF ELLEN SHERMAN: Ed wanted an open marriage. He encouraged Ellen to have affairs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What type of marriage would you say you had.
EDWARD SHERMAN, CHARGED FOR MURDER OF HIS WIFE, ELLEN: Unusual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATIVE: A "Forensic Files" update.
Ed and Ellen Sherman lived in Niantic, Connecticut for the entire 16 years of their marriage. On a Friday night in August of 1985, Ed left for a week
long sailing trip with four friends. Using their ship to shore radio, a policeman gave Ed Sherman the bad news. Red ligature marks around Ellen`s
neck indicated strangulation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. MICHAEL MALCHIK (RET.) CONN. STATE POLICE: It appeared at first glance as if she were the subject of a sexual assault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: Police uncovered allegations of sex parties and wife swapping.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NATHAN LANE, AS F. LEE BAILEY CHARACTER IN "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON" FX SERIES: Are you saying under oath that you have not addressed any black
person as a (EXPLETIVE WORD) or spoken about black people as (EXPLETIVE WORD)?
STEVEN PASQUALE, AS DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN IN "THE PEOPLE V. O,J. SIMPSON" FX SERIES: Yes, that`s what I`m saying.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STERLING K. BROWN, AS CHRISTOPHER DARDEN CHARACTER IN "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON" FX SERIES: We need to make our own big moments that land with the
jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Nicole bought the gloves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Our gloves, Aris Isotoner, Model 70263
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Nicole walked into that store and bought two pairs of our gloves.
SARAH PAULSON, AS MARCIA CLARK CHARACTER IN "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON" FX SERIES: Hold it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULSON AS CLARK: The gloves -- The gloves are our conviction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN AS DARDEN: Let us make O.J. put on those gloves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULSON AS CLARK: And, I decided that it is not a good idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULSON AS CLARK: You turn over control of a demonstration to the opponent. You do not know what is going to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN AS DARDEN: Your honor at this time the people would ask that Mr. Simpson to step forward and try on the gloves recovered from Bundy and
Rockingham.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUBA GOODING JR., AS O.J. SIMPSON CHARACTER IN "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON" FX SERIES: These gloves are too small.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC INTRO)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: We are as intrigued by the "Forensic Files" as you are. That is why we are opening every show with
our "Forensic Files" follow-up. We will tell you what has happened since the case was closed. We will give you our own interpretation of what might
not have been on the show. What we have learned since.
In this particular episode, it got everything. Swinger parties, adultery and murder. Now, we are about to get into all of these interesting details
from the episode you had just watched. And, the detective who investigated that case is here with us. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: Ellen Sherman, found strangled in her bedroom, her under pants wrapped around her neck.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. MALCHIK: It appeared at first glance as if she were the subject of a sexual assault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: Her husband had an alibi. He was on a sailing trip. But as police dug deeper, they uncovered some interesting details
about the couple`s sex life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKSEN: I remember being at a New Year`s Eve Party. They had several couples there. And, I guess they were going to swap partners.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: They had an open relationship. But when Ellen became pregnant, she decided she could no longer live with her husband`s
infidelity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKSEN: Ellen said he could have his girlfriend and his sailboat and that is it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: Police determined Edward then murdered his wife, staged the scene and turned on the air-conditioner full blast to
delay the effects of rigor mortis, hoping to mislead investigators as to the time of death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: One of the reasons I like too in these follow-ups is we learn more about the perpetrator. We have learned more about Edward that was not in
the "Forensic Files." He assaulted his first wife, choked a woman, assaulted his mistress. That is in fact the woman he lived with after
having killed his wife. Joining us, Rolonda Watts, Journalist and Author; AnneElise Goetz, Attorney; Darren Kavinoky, Attorney.
Let us look at what went on in this couple`s crazy relationship. As it was said, open marriage, they hosted swinging parties. He had a child with his
mistress. Darren, the more boundaries you violated, the crazy you make your relationships, the more likely things are to degenerate into violence.
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Maybe an understatement. This was two full scoops of crazy. And, I have to say --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, Darren. How dare you judge people that are into swinging parties. Are you sick? I am serious --
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: No --
PINSKY: I am being somewhat serious.
KAVINOKY: Oh, no, no, no.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: Just because alternative sexual practices -- and you got to clarify this, because this was not just alternative sexual practices,
seriously.
KAVINOKY: Yes. And, I am not coming to this from a place of judgment. Whatever people want to do to get their freak on, and it is all right by
me. So, that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the layers of deception and all that other stuff that goes into these kinds of
cases. If loving a murder case is wrong, Drew, I do not want to be right.
(LAUGHING)
[19:05:02] PINSKY: Rolonda, as Darren is saying, we do not know how enthusiastic the woman that eventually was murdered was about the way this
marriage was conducted. --
ROLONDA WATTS, JOURNALISTS AND AUTHOR: Well, you know --
PINSKY: Oftentimes somebody is into it and somebody tolerates it.
WATTS: Well, that is the problem with threesomes. You know, somebody is going to feel left out after a while. But --
(LAUGHING)
KAVINOKY: I got some tips for you.
WATTS: Not that I know. Not that I know. But, really, when you start mixing and matching so many different elements and energies and love --
PINSKY: Right.
WATTS: -- and then children all mixed up into this.
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: And, you know, what really got me is I was going along with this story and then the guy says, "You know, I feel sorry about this lifestyle.
I set up for my wife. I understand she needed better. But, I really did not do it." And, then I start going like, "Well, did the other woman do
it," because now the wife is pregnant?
PINSKY: Right.
WATTS: I mean is there more to the story?
PINSKY: Rolonda, I thank you for saying, because AnneElise, that is what gets crazy making about this, right? The lots of unpredictable feelings
emerged in these sort of situation. Now, by the way, as Rolonda said, when kids are involved, everybody, no.
WATTS: No.
PINSKY: Kids need a stable safe environment. What do you think, AnneElise?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: That is the worst part of it. I keep on thinking about the daughter. Because there is a daughter here that stayed
with her father the entire time that he was accused of murder up until the trial. She lived with him. She was on there supporting him.
She has lost her mother. She has now lost her father and she lost her unborn brother. Now, look at -- If he did do it, not only the physical
harm that he did to his wife, but also the emotional damage and the emotional trauma that he put his daughter through --
PINSKY: That is right.
GOETZ: -- is inexcusable as a father.
PINSKY: By phone, I have Rosanne Smyle. She is the reporter who had covered this case. She was featured in the "Forensic Files" episode you
just saw. Rosanne, you were there at the trial, what was this guy like on the stand?
ROSANNE SMYLE, REPORTER WHO COVERED EDWARD SHERMAN TRIAL (via phone): He was pretty calm and cool and he ended up staying on the stand for like a
total of 13 days, which is a long time. He was questioned directly by his lawyer. And, I guess it was like nine and a half hours on direct. And,
then Ed Sherman spent 10 days on the witness stand under cross examination. So, that is pretty grueling.
PINSKY: Rosanne, hold on one sec.
KAVINOKY: Yes. Well, I was just going to say, by Jodi Arias standards, it does not seem like such a long time. But that is an enormously long time
for somebody to be on the witness stand.
And, I think one of the important points, the takeaways here is that in the context of a trial, lawyers score far more points on cross examination than
they do on direct. So, to have somebody up on direct for nine hours and then on cross for all of those days, that is a big piece of work.
PINSKY: Rosanne, what did he say about how they conducted their marriage? Was he defensive about that? Was he glib? Did he -- was he remorseful?
What did you see?
SMYLE: It was a long time ago. All I can probably recall is that, you know, it was the way things were. I mean, it was a way of life. And, I
know other -- like this is for other witnesses said that Ellen really did not want to go along with it, but she did for her husband.
PINSKY: Right. That is I am not surprised, because that is --
SMYLE: Yes.
PINSKY: -- Like I said, often one is into it and one tolerates it. And, eventually somebody wants to stop that. And, in this case, money, wanting
to stop, mistresses, leads to aggression and possibly violence. I am not even convinced by the way.
I am not convinced that he necessarily killed her in a premeditated fashion. I think it might have been more of his crazy sexual practices
gone bad and then tried to cover it up. We will keep this going. I have got the detective from the case.
And, later the glove that may have sealed the deal for O.J. Simpson`s acquittal, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: 1985, Ellen Sherman found strangled in her bedroom. Police soon turned their focus to her husband.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If you had to describe your marriage, What type of marriage would you say you had.
SHERMAN: Unusual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NARRATOR: The couple had an open relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. MALCHIK: The girlfriend had a child and it was his child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKSEN: Back then, Ellen used to refer to her as Ed`s valley girl. She was blond and fairly different looking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are back with our "Forensic Files Follow-up." We will be doing this every night following a "Forensic Files" to give you an update on
exactly what has happened since and talk to some of the principals in the story you have just seen.
Edward Sherman has strangled his pregnant wife because she was threatening to divorce him and leave him with nothing. He thought he could out smart
the police by staging the crime scene. Still with us, Rolonda, AnneElise and Darren. Here is more from the interrogation where Edward tells
detectives how he ended things with the mistress. Take a look.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SHERMAN: And, then I terminated the relationship with this other woman. I was angry because I had to make a decision. And, so I told Nancy, "I
cannot handle it anymore." She kept asking me, "Why, why, why, why, why?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, his friends described him as arrogant. They said he thought he was smarter than everyone else. Rolonda, he was not smarter than the
prosecution, though, right?
WATTS: Not smarter.
PINSKY: This business of turning the air-conditioning up to delay rigor mortis resolution --
WATTS: But, it was deeper than that, which was kind of interesting to turn that air-conditioner up, so it is so cold that the decomposition is slower,
which makes it look like it was not as long as it was. But, anyway, the bottom line was, he had talked with couple of things that he did. He
talked aabout a movie where the exact same situation happened.
PINSKY: He loved the movie. He loved that movie.
WATTS: He loved -- yes. And, he suggested somebody watch it. And, then also the phone call, where he was supposedly calling his wife saying, "I
love you, honey. I am away but I love you in all this." And, the little girl, the 9-year-old girl --
PINSKY: Is not that crazy.
[19:15:00] WATTS: -- on the phone and she was like, "There was nobody on the other side of that phone. The phone was just ringing and ringing and
ringing."
PINSKY: AnneElise.
GOETZ: I have some issues. When we are watching this, it is very similar to our conversation we have on "Making A Murder," right?
WATTS: Yes.
GOETZ: Where you are really only seeing one side of the story. And, I am looking at this and I am saying, "Well, she was pregnant, right?" I was
crazy hot when I was pregnant. Theoretically, you might turn up the AC pretty high. The victim was pregnant. She was five months pregnant.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GOETZ: He might turn the AC up pretty high when that happens. That is one thing. Two, you know, there was the whole fighting between when was the
time of death. It sounds to me like one expert won out over the other.
But, he is certainly -- I am sure how an expert on the stand saying, "The time of death happened on Saturday or Sunday." There was -- I think that
there could have been some reasonable doubt. We are only seeing one side of the case here. And, I questions --
PINSKY: What about if the girl had not picked up the phone and hear him speaking to a dial tone.
KAVINOKY: Yes.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
KAVINOKY: Right.
PINSKY: Because that was pretty damning evidence. Do not you think?
WATTS: I think so. Yes.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
KAVINOKY: Well, what I love about these forensic files now is we get to go back and Monday morning quarterback, which is just great fun, because we
have all of this new information and it shifts the context. I almost think it is cute like almost in an amateurish way, like "Oh, he turned down the
thermostat," like no one was going to figure that one out.
PINSKY: Right.
KAVINOKY: But, this was, you know, the `80s and I guess the level of science and general understanding, you know. He thought, mentally, that he
was going to get away with it, which is consistent.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was curious. Did they find the wife`s DNA under the husband`s fingernails or vice versa?
PINSKY: I do not think we heard about that.
GOETZ: They did not cover it in the "Forensic Files" at least.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, I got -- On the phone, I got the detective, Michael Malchik. He is the detective who helped solve the case. Michael, did they
find DNA that matched under either of their fingernails?
DET. MICHAEL MALCHIK, POLICE DETECTIVE, INVESTIGATED ELLEN SHERMAN MURDER (via phone): My understanding is or my recollection, it has been so long
is that they did not that I can recall. But, if they found his DNA under her fingernails, that would not have made too much of a difference, because
it is actually her husband.
PINSKY: Right.
DET. MALCHIK: one thing I just wanted to make clear that as nobody has mentioned yet, that this fellow is a Mensa. And, if anybody knows what a
Mensa is --
PINSKY: Yes.
DE. MALCHIK: He never took -- he always took the opportunity to tell everybody. A mensa is a person that belongs to a high I.Q. club. And, he
believes that -- for a better description, he is the smartest man in the room.
PINSKY: And, Michael, what was your perception of him when you interviewed him? Did he seem arrogant? Did he take that attitude of intellectual
superiority?
DET. MALCHIK: Yes. And, during our investigation, everybody we talked to -- and we talked to a lot of people, they all thought she was wonderful.
She was very great. She was -- Everybody liked her. They loved her --
PINSKY: The wife. The wife.
DET. MALCHIK: -- But with him --
PINSKY: The wife?
DET. MALCHIK: -- it was the opposite.
PINSKY: Everyone liked the wife?
DET. MALCHIK: Liked the wife. And, everybody, it was the opposite. They never said really why, they just did not like him.
PINSKY: And, then what about this open marriage, Michael? I mean, do you think that she was just going along with something to make him happy?
DET. MALCHIK: I really have no idea if that was the case. And, actually, that did not have anything to do with this motive or this case. It was
salacious. And, it made a lot of headlines, but it really did -- It had to do with being squeezed between the girlfriend who had a child, was
pregnant, and then the wife who wanted to get pregnant with a second child.
PINSKY: Did anyone ever suspect the girlfriend?
DET. MALCHIK: Well, we did at first. But, once we learned different things about Ed -- he had other girlfriends besides the -- He was a
professor at a local college. And, the girlfriend -- everybody up there at the college thought that was his wife.
PINSKY: Wow!
DET. MALCHIK: And, everybody down in the East Lyme and Niantic area --
WATTS: Woo! Play and play!
DET. MALCHIK: -- thought that Ellen was -- well, Ellen was his wife --
PINSKY: And, God knows he may -- hang on a second.
DET. MALCHIK: So, he was leading a double life.
PINSKY: He might have been preying on some of the college kids too.
GOETZ: Oh, I am certain he is.
PINSKY: Who knows? Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: So, I have this theory that in some sick twisted way he wanted to deface his wife by collecting the semen from
different sexual partners. And, maybe it was because, you know, there was something that she was really cool with. She was not cool with it, the
promiscuity, so he wanted to deface her by killing her and like spreading her lung all --
PINSKY: Oh, all the other stains that were there.
KAVINOKY: We have 150 different --
(LAUGHING)
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But, Michael, did you ever consider this was not premeditated at all, it was just an accident? They were into weird sexual practices.
Maybe they were into erotic asphyxiation. It went through far. He tried to cover it up.
[19:20:00] DET. MALCHIK: No. Never thought of that for a minute.
PINSKY: Why not?
DET. MALCHIK: What you have to remember is, in my opinion, if you want to kill your wife, there are two ways to do it. You have to do it yourself
and then be able to place yourself somewhere at a far distance from where the murder took place or you have to get somebody else to do it. And, then
you have to worry that that person is going to give you up.
PINSKY: Right. So, Darren and I are taking notes. We are going to make sure we kill the guy that we hire to kill the wife. Got it.
KAVINOKY: Honey, turn the channel. Nothing to see here.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Listen. Just to complete the picture of who this guy, this scumbag was. What was he a professor of?
DET. MALCHIK: He -- Actually, I have forgotten what he was a professor of. I think he was a Psychology Professor if I am not mistaken.
PINSKY: Fantastic. All right, thank you, sir. Next up, we will continue the conversation.
And, later, Nicole Brown Simpson`s former boyfriend is here with us. He will tell us what he thinks about "The People V. O.J., back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The air-conditioning system in the house was turned down, apparently to slow the decomposition of the body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKSEN: He asked me once, he asked me ten times. Do you know if they determined the time of death? He was very interested in that. He also
asked me one time, if I knew how a body decomposed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, we are following up on "Forensic Files." This is the case you saw tonight just before our program. Edward Sherman killed his wife,
tried to throw detectives off by staging the crime scene. He turned the air-conditioning on full blast to allegedly delay the body`s process of
decay, so rigor mortis was prolonged.
Back with Rolonda, AnneElise and Darren. Now, in the last block I discussed this case had a lot of bizarre sexual details. Here is a
forensic scientist talking about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Extremely unusual is the bedsheet, we found close to 150 to 200 individual semen stains. That is a lot of semen stains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, apparently like 150 to 200. Now, what they did not specify was 150 to 200 different deposits?
(CROSSTALK)
KAVINOKY: Which is an important clarification to make.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Or this was a couple that did not wash their sheets very well.
GOETZ: Yes, either way, people should be disgusted by this, right? Like do your laundry. It looks like one of those dateline undercover
operations, where they go into the hotel. This is your own home. Get some tide and do some laundry.
WATTS: But considering they were into orgies --
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: -- and all of these, it probably was a bunch of people`s different semens spots.
GOETZ: But, you got to clean it still.
WATTS: You are right.
KAVINOKY: Dr. Drew, you asked the question --
WATTS: Just a second, I will take a moment. I never thought I would be on this show having those words come out of Rolonda`s mouth. I need to take
second, just take a moment. I think even you were surprised.
(LAUGHING)
WATTS: I was surprised --
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
PINSKY: So, OK. Go ahead, Darren.
KAVINOKY: God knows I am not often considered the voice of reason.
PINSKY: Yes.
KAVINOKY: But, I would just urge caution that we are talking about how sexually adventurous these people are.
PINSKY: Right.
KAVINOKY: But yet that does not necessarily connect the dots all the way to murder.
PINSKY: No, it does not. But, it does, however, Captain Evil, Dr. Evil. That was his best Dr. Evil. But, I will tell you what it does do. It
really -- auto asphyxiating, or not even auto, sexual asphyxiation is a common practice. Particularly back then, people did not understand how
dangerous it was.
KAVINOKY: Yes.
PINSKY: People die frequently in an auto erotic setting or in an interpersonal setting. It is easy to go from high levels of morals or to
death. It is very easy. And, I have seen people not infrequently go too far and then try to cover it up.
And, if this guy is so smart, I could see him going through multiple steps including calling, going out on the boat, just thinking it through
instantly and coming up with all these alibis.
It could have been an accident. Even though this guy was a screwball, he was not somebody you want as a husband. The boundaries were terrible. I
am concerned he may have been acting out on college kids or certainly graduate students over there.
I mean, who -- back then, I mean, it was just coming out of the `70s where everything was cool, man, whatever you are into. And, I am saying it is
not cool. AnneElise.
(LAUGHING)
WATTS: Right.
GOETZ: I think what is interesting from an investigative standpoint is we are talking about something in the `80s, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: And, I am looking at this, thinking, "Well, supposedly, allegedly, he turns down the air-conditioning." That sounds like something you would
almost see in a Google search, right?
PINSKY: We did not have the Google.
GOETZ: "How to slow the decomposition of a body." There was no Google search, and I was thinking that, that would the major that you would do --
PINSKY: But, he seen that in a movie.
GOETZ: -- So instead we find ourselves looking at this movie, which seems like more of a --
PINSKY: He had seen the movie and brought it up repeatedly.
GOETZ: Oh, he had seen it.
PINSKY: Yes, he --
GOETZ: Oh, I thought someone. They knew the movie was out in distribution --
PINSKY: No, no. He actually asked people to see the movie with him. He enjoyed it. He saw it a few times. I want to show you what the body looks
like when rigor mortis sets in. You can keep a room freezing, and of course that slows the process down. Do we have this? Yes.
It is a rigidity that the muscles constrict, every muscle in the body for about 24 hours and then it breaks down again. And, so, it is something
that, you know, researcher -- not researchers, investigators can really time very specifically. This was a weird duration of rigor mortis.
WATTS: But, some of the things that the medical examiner found was, there was a question about whether the body was dead before the panty got wrapped
around the neck.
PINSKY: Yes.
WATTS: And, also the fingernails, her fingernails revealed a lot. According to the report --
PINSKY: They were bent back.
WATTS: -- They were bent back as if she had been fighting. So, that does not sound like freaky sex to me. That sounds like trying to save my life.
[19:30:02] PINSKY: Again, who knows. We will never know. We are going to leave this one and graduate to "The People V. O.J. Simpson." His former
manager is here and says he knows who the real killer was. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: O.J. Simpson, facing charges of killing his former wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman. As the
prosecution case seemingly crawled to the finish line, but appeared to some to be a major screw-up. When prosecutors had Simpson try on the gloves
believed used in the murders of his former wife and her friend, they did not appear to fit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN AS DARDEN: Let us make O.J. put on those gloves.
PAULSON AS CLARK: It is not a good idea, at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOODING AS O.J. SIMPSON: These gloves are too small. Too tight. It won`t fit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIL GARCETTI, LOS ANGELES DISTRICT ATTORNEY: A slam dunk anyone other than O.J. Simpson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Those scenes were from the O.J. Simpson courtroom and the FX series "The People V. O.J. Simpson. We have news tonight about the knife
that were recently recovered from the O.J. Simpson`s previous` estate, which was being torn down.
The LAPD is denying reports that no DNA was found on it. They are saying they are still testing the knife. O.J., himself, weighed in on this knife
recently, allegedly joking about it to a former prison guard. Watch this from ABC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY FELIX, FMR. CORRECTIONAL OFFICER: He jokingly says, "If the knife is rusted, I cannot be busted."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well,I am back with Rolanda. Rolonda covered the Simpson trial. I got AnneElise and joining us Judge Kevin Ross, former L.A. County
Prosecutor, host of "America`s Court with Judge Ross." And, I have Norman Pardo, O.J. Simpson`s former manager. Judge Ross, do you think we are
going to learn anything from this knife?
JUDGE KEVIN ROSS, FMR. L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: You know, it is hard to say because as you indicated, people sometimes forget that that whole property
was demolished. It was destroyed. So, I do not know, ultimately. I do not like to speculate as a judge.
Because if you speculate in court and someone says speculation, as a judge you say "Sustained." You do not allow it in. I think we have to wait and
see on that knife. But I cannot imagine that it is going to give us any more insight than what we already know in terms that whether or not O.J.
committed this crime.
PINSKY: Would it make any difference, AnneElise, even if they did?
GOETZ: I think the country has decided he did it, you know. Whether they have the knife or they do not have the knife. He is now sitting in jail
for a different crime. People think that he got what he deserved whether - - I think it is unlikely we are going to see that knife come back and incriminate him. But, the public has already made up their mind.
PINSKY: Norman, what do you think about that? AnneElise is saying something very provocative that the court of public opinion has already
condemned O.J. What do you say?
NORMAN PARDO, O.J. SIMPSON`S FORMER MANAGER: Well, that is true. He is in prison for it now in Vegas. So, the public opinion, that is what they have
done.
PINSKY: Well, that was a --
PARDO: I mean, just the whole thing about the knife, that is just silly that he would even say if the knife is rusty -- I mean, come on. To start
with, the guard who said that was not his guard when they found the knife. He had already left months before. So, how could he go back in time and
say O.J. said that before they ever found the knife? I mean come on.
PINSKY: Well, it is not as though that --
PARDO: But it was funny.
PINSKY: It is not as though that guard was visiting O.J. or still friendly with O.J, that is not so?
PARDO: No.
GOETZ: Best friend.
PARDO: No.
GOETZ: The guard was his best friend.
PARDO: No way. Why would he be friends -- he has a lot of best friends. There are best friends everywhere. He had more best friends than anybody
on this planet.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, Norman, you --
PARDO: Anybody is a best friend if they could sell a story.
JUDGE ROSS: Right.
PINSKY: And, you have tantalized the public with the idea that you maybe know something that, you know, we all do not know. Give us something that
we can hang our hat on that helps us understand your perspective.
(LAUGHING)
PARDO: I wish I had not even have said what I said. I got in so much trouble over that. Everybody`s attorney was calling me. They wanted me to
shut up. My own attorney called me and told me, until he gets things straighten out, be quiet now.
PINSKY: Well, I appreciate that.
PARDO: This whole thing has been funny. It is just --
PINSKY: I must tell you --
PARDO: We have been working as --
PINSKY: Go ahead, please. Please.
PARDO: I have been working on this since 1999. So, most people know that I have dug up a lot more than most. And, being as close to him as I was --
PINSKY: I got to tell you, I have heard similar sorts of statements from people who had been in his inner circle over the years, very vague, very
much like what you are saying.
PARDO: Yes.
PINSKY: And, like there is more to the story and there is characters involved here.
PARDO: Yes.
PINSKY: A lot of little vague things that people toss around. I am just wondering if you can give people a sense of what it is you are saying if
indeed we are wrong in convicting O.J. in the court of public opinion.
PARDO: The entire thing is wrong. The FX entire story is wrong. That is what makes it funny. The police and everything they have done was wrong.
The prosecutor is wrong. Their styles out there right now that are sealed that I cannot get open. I mean, you would not think -- I am trying to open
just a simple Ron Goldman file. They will not let me -- with my investigators. We are working with an investigative group.
PINSKY: Rolonda, you were there.
WATTS: Yes.
PINSKY: But, the FX show is -- is it vastly different than what you observed there when you were covering the case?
WATTS: Well, there are always creative liberties.
PINSKY: It is hyperbole.
WATTS: Right. But, it is so excellent in the way that it taps into just the curiosity that we had at the time. I am going to be honest with you.
Watching last night, I was like, everybody wondered, "Did Darden and Marsha Clark really have a relationship," because you cannot deny it. There was
so much chemistry in that courtroom. Not just on the defense side, but on the prosecution side as well.
[21:40:15] PINSKY: But TMZ caught up -- in real life, caught up with Chris Darden in downtown Los Angeles and asked him about the series. Take
a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER DARDEN, PROSECUTOR IN O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: I am not a part of it. They did not talk to me about it, so --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Do you feel like they should have come to you before they portrayed you in some way?
DARDEN: I do not have any view one way or the other. I will say this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
DARDEN: But, basically, nonblack writers, nonblack producers. And then you want to take this iconic trial with these black lawyers and talk about
race.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
DAREN: I do not see how you talk about race without including the people who are most affected by it. People need to understand that there is a
part of this thing that is fictionalized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Judge Ross, you seem to give that a big nod. Go ahead.
JUDGE ROSS: Well, what is interesting about that statement is because prior to me having my T.V. show I was an L.A. Superior Court Judge.
PINSKY: Yes.
JUDGE ROSS: And, prior to being a judge here in Los Angeles, I was a prosecutor in the office at the time the case was going on. And, one of
the things, I remember very vividly, there was a memo going around. And, the memo said, "Anyone who is interested in working on the case, it is
going to be long hours. This is a great opportunity. Let us know."
And, all the black prosecutors were like, "Oh, no. No. I do not want anything to do with this case." Because even as prosecutors, we recognized
that this whole thing of the Darden dilemma, being a black man prosecuting a black man was going to be something that would be very difficult, because
there is already this relationship with the community and people of color, who are in these positions.
WATTS: They treated Darden so, so mean --
JUDGE ROSS: Oh, they treated him so horrible.
WATTS: "Oh, he was just horrible." "He turned on the race." He did -- you know, "He was not a real black man." "He was a token." They made
horrible things about him.
JUDGE ROSS: And, yet, even in saying that what people forget is that for five years, Johnnie Cochran was a prosecutor. Johnnie Cochran had a
relationship with LAPD.
PINSKY: His son was an LAPD officer.
JUDGE ROSS: The relationship that he had with the LAPD when he was a prosecutor is that same period of the LAPD where you see all the different
things going on with the corruption that led to the consent --
PINSKY: Is that why he was a good defense lawyer because he knew what the weaknesses were?
JUDGE ROSS: Johnnie and I belonged to the same fraternity. So, we had relationship --
WATTS: Kappa --
JUDGE ROSS: Kappa Alpha Psi. Yo, yo. All right! Got to get that out.
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
He and I are actually talked about this case before he became assigned to it. And, he and I had a private conversation. And, what I will share with
you was the thing that stood out most, because he was on talk shows. And, he was saying what in the hell are they doing? Who was advising him? So,
he was even telling me, these guys have messed this case up.
Now, he did not use the word mess. I will let you all figure out what word he used. But one of the issues was O.J. Simpson is a black man and me and
Johnnie talking black man to black man, fraternity member to a fraternity member, it was like he needs to kind of come home. And, so when they
brought Johnnie in, it is very analogous to what you saw with the Bill Cosby case.
You have this African-American woman doing talk shows and you have this for the most part white legal team. Next thing, you know, Bill Cosby`s people
are saying we need to get this sister over here on board, because she is going to give me another flavor. And, that is what Johnnie did for O.J.
PINSKY: We have to take a quick break. Thank you, Judge. The man who dated Nicole Brown Simpson when her relationship with O.J. was unraveling.
We will have him after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: 911 Emergency.
NICOLE BROWN (via phone): Could you get someone over here now to 325 Gretna Green, please? He`s back. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: OK. What does he look like?
NICOLE BROWN: He`s O.J. Simpson. I think you know his record.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: What is he saying?
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: Something about some guy I know and hookers and Keith and -- I started this (EXPLETIVE WORD) before and it is all my fault.
And, now what am I going to do, get the police in on this -- and that whole thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: OK.
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: It is my fault. I started this before. I just do not want my kids exposed to this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: OK.
(O.J. SIMPSON`S VOICE IN THE BACKGROUND)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Nicole Brown Simpson made that 911 call in October of 1993. O.J. burst into the home, threatened her. Back with Rolonda, AnneElise, Judge
Ross. And, joining me on the phone, I have Keith Zlomsowitch, that is how to pronounced his name, right? Zlomsowitch, who had dated Nicole. Now,
she mentioned Keith -- she mentioned you in that 911 call we just heard. What was happening there?
KEITH ZLOMSOWITCH, DATED NICOLE BROWN: Well, I was unaware of that phone call until the trial when those 911 tapes were released. It had been a
period of time that Nicole and I had been just communicating over the phone. And, all of a sudden we lost contact for about three or four days.
And, what had happened was, I came home and one afternoon I had a voicemail from O.J. on my home phone in Aspen, Colorado. He was apparently on the
set of a movie and a girl that I used to date was with him and brought up my name to him.
And, that enraged him, so he felt compelled to call my voicemail at home and leave me a message. I immediately knew that would be trouble for
Nicole, so I tried to reach out to her.
PINSKY: Keith. Keith, what was in that message?
ZLOMSOWITCH: It was a sarcastic sort of, "Hey, this is your old pal O.J. You know, I am here with a friend of yours." You know, little bit more
dialogue. I wish I saved it, but I did not.
PINSKY: And, did you know that there was domestic violence in that relationship?
[19:50:00] ZLOMSOWITCH: Absolutely. I mean, I knew everything. Nicole told me everything. We witnessed the stalking, first hand. I mean he
followed us everywhere. He watched us through windows, showed up at every restaurant and every bar we ever went to.
He made it absolutely difficult, impossible for us to be together. So, after that phase of it ended, you know, we became best friends and we
communicated on a constant basis. And, she told me a lot of personal information that I do not think she shared with a lot of people, whether
she was embarrassed about it or felt like she did not want to.
PINSKY: Is there anything that the public should know to help understand this case?
ZLOMSOWITCH: I am sorry.
PINSKY: Is there anything that you know that the public should know or that reasonably we could ask you?
ZLOMSOWITCH: I mean, I know that she was beaten on a pretty consistent basis and she was abused consistently by him. I mean she told me of
numerous accounts of him, you know, beating her and abusing her and treating her just horribly. I witnessed a lot of it myself, you know.
Just, it was just frightening to be around, so --
PINSKY: Why do you think the prosecution elected not to call you at the trial?
ZLOMSOWITCH: Well, I have some speculation on that. I was never really given a straight answer. First, they told me they were going to use me as
the first witness, then as the last witness, then as a rebuttal witness. But, I feel maybe that, you know, they thought the domestic violence was
not playing to the jury, possibly.
You know, I am not really sure. They kept me locked away. I could not watch the trial. I was under subpoena, so I was not permitted to watch the
trial, so I was not sure what was going on day to day, but I was contacted consistently by them. The defense actually tried to bring me into court in
Tampa, Florida, where I was just sort of waiting it out and they were going to call me as a defense witness.
PINSKY: Keith, I am going to interrupt you. We have a question from our audience. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER: If they revisit the knife from the case and they found evidence, would they be able to charge O.J. again or
would that be double jeopardy?
PINSKY: That is double jeopardy, but judge, I think it could figure into his parole for the crime he is in prison for presently, could not it?
JUDGE ROSS: Well, I will say it this way. Once you have been found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, at that point, it becomes an issue where
you cannot be tried again. Now, I think it is analogous to what happened with Denzel Washington.
Everyone thought, when he did the movie "glory," he should have won the Oscar. He ends up winning the Oscar for "Training Day." So, there is sort
of this balancing -- we are not going to give him the Oscar for this one. I think you can say the same about O.J.
(LAUGHING)
It was like, "OK, we cannot get him for this murder, but we are going to slam him on this robbery."
(LAUGHING)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
And, at this point, I do not see there being any additional punishment. He lost in the civil matter.
PINSKY: Yes.
JUDGE ROSS: And, that was based on preponderance of the evidence --
PINSKY: And, again, people are confused with civil versus criminal --
JUDGE ROSS: That is what I was going to say.
PINSKY: Go ahead, please.
JUDGE ROSS: The difference is, when you are looking at putting someone in jail, taking their liberty, you really want to be sure -- so that is why we
use the standard beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, that is not saying beyond all doubt.
As a juror, you say, "Do I have a doubt? Is it reasonable?" If you can say yes, it is reasonable, then you must find not guilty. And, conversely,
if you say, "Ah, but it is just kind of a feeling, but I cannot really substantiate it," then you must find guilty. That is the jury instruction.
In a civil matter, it is just based on a preponderance of the evidence. It is like 51-49.
PINSKY: He lost in that situation. We got to take a break.
JUDGE ROSS: Big time.
PINSKY: Do not go away. We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYINF)
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Ron and Nicole appeared as dead bodies in the beginning and that is it. So far, there has not been mention
of them again. There is going to be a whole generation of people who never knew anything about this trial that will see this series and take it as
gospel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN`S SISTER: People are, "Oh, the acting is riveting, and this is such a great plot line!" And, I am thinking, "These
are murders." Like, it is very confusing to us, because this is not entertainment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about the O.J. Simpson trial and the T.V. series based on that trial. That, of course, is Fred Goldman on "The Steve Harvey
Show." Back with Rolonda, AnneElise, and Judge Ross. On the phone, I have Keith Zlomsowitch, who had dated Nicole Brown Simpson. Keith, you wanted
to comment on the television series.
ZLOMSOWITCH: Well, I think Fred Goldman just hit it on the head. I wanted to reiterate that I think it is very shameful that the victims are not
represented, the victims` families are not represented when you see the Kardashian children on there more than you see Nicole`s family or Ron`s
family, that is pretty shameful.
But, the one good thing I have taken out of the series is it really shows the true character of the defense team. It shows what kind of unscrupulous
acts they pulled, what kind of things they did to get him off. And, I am hoping maybe some people can take from that the unjustice that was done.
So, that is the one thing I am taking out of it.
PINSKY: I am wondering, producers, is Norman still there? -- He is gone, because I wonder what he might have said about that. Keith, thank you so
much. It really has been very interesting speaking to you.
GOETZ: I think it is great having Keith on and hearing his perspective, because in the series, we do lose the fact of the victims and what really
happened to them. And, when we are talking about Nicole and what she endured --
PINSKY: I know.
GOETZ: -- and the life that she led, it breaks your heart. And, so, it is good to have that reminder on this show, if we are missing out on the
movie.
PINSKY: And, I know you are very involved in women`s issues and Rolonda you were there. But if domestic violence was not really understood --
WATTS: Let me tell you something. The people did not talk about it, Dr. Drew. And, in fact, we pull out here and went live on "The Rolonda Show"
just to talk about domestic violence. Why? Because after this case, the calls into hotlines went up 50 percent, and we had -- we talked about it.
People were not talking about this type --
PINSKY: They could not identify it.
WATTS: No.
PINSKY: This sort of intense relationship --
WATTS: And, it changed the law.
JUDGE ROSS: And, even in corporal judges. Because once judges got into, you know what we would better start really taking these cases more
seriously as a result --
PINSKY: So, there was a positive outcome --
JUDGE ROSS: Yes, there was.
PINSKY: -- as horrible as this whole thing was, and here we are revisiting it again now 25 years later? Good job, panel. Good job, audience. Thank
you for being here. We will see you next time.
[20:00:00] (AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
END
