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Dr. Drew
Terror Attacks in Brussels; Details of Justin Barber Case; Rob Ford Dies at Age 46. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 22, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFED MALE: And had it in its final form and compare it to the story. It revealed that Justine Barber is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twin terror attacks in Brussels at both the airport and a metro station.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death toll is high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard from most of the -- to the leaders .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard an explosion. Now the ceiling is going down then in the second explosion went and everything is black.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m afraid these random acts of terrorism will not end any time soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin Barber told police that a robber shot his wife April in the head and shot him four times while they were walking on the
beach. As Justin recuperated from his wounds, he provided a description of the assailant.
JUSTIN BARBER: He was taller than me, heavier, but he wasn`t overweight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I talked to Justin they ever had an affair. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appeared that he had as many as five extra marital affairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin had been trading stocks on the internet and wasn`t doing very well. April owned a $2 million life insurance policy,
but Justin was the sole beneficiary, which meant he could have done anything he wanted with the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will forensics solve this murder mystery?
DREW PINSKY, "DR. DREW" HOST: Breaking news everyone, ISIS is taking credit for the terror attacks in Belgium that killed dozens of people at
the airport and a metro station. Right now police are looking for this man believed to have been an escort for the two suicide bombers who set off
explosives inside the airport. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t explain it looked like war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were in the elevator we`re going down for taking the train. I heard an explosion, that was the first bomb. When we came out of
the elevator on that moment, the second bomb exploded. And then we saw doors flying, glass ceiling coming down and smoke and everything and then
we ran away to an emergency exit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immediately there was panic so people were shouting and running around then as shortly after that the second explosion was there
which was in my eyes more powerful than the first one, which blew out the windows the ceiling was coming down, people were on the floor, people were
injured. It was quite a mess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Awful, awful. Joining us Erin Foster psychotherapist, Sara Azari criminal defense attorney, Steve Moore counter terrorism expert,
supervisor special agent, FBI retired and Evy Poumpouras Secret security expert, former special agent secret service.
All right Surveillance cameras captured the image of three terror suspects inside the airport, and that image gives us clues about what -- how this
attack was executed, who did it, take a look.
STEVE MOORE, COUNTER TERRORISM EXPERT: Well we see first off the gloves that the individuals are wearing are likely to hide the detonators for the
bombs that they were setting off. That`s the belief right now, is what they were doing. It looks like the individual to the right is essentially
the handler of these two his taking sure that they deploy the American airlines counter.
I don`t think that was an accident that quite obviously has some real symbolism and what you see here is the sort of complex terror cell
structure you can expect when you start introducing hardened fighters from the Syrian Jihadist theater into Europe. And by the way, they`re not just
limited to Belgium as we know we`re going to see more of these in other places.
PINSKY: Steve everything about that tape and the commentary sends an absolute chill down my spine. Just the fact that he`s predicting more, and
when you look at the cold blooded almost professional quality which they carried this out, but I guess what I got to know is, what are the -- what
do we need to look for? A green glove, two gloves? It`s overwhelming to see that.
MOORE: There`s no way the average citizen is going to look around the airport and say, these guys are suspicious.
PINSKY: Wait, I have to stop you. There is literally nothing -- we do a lot of see something, say something. There`s nothing we can look for? We
can`t be vigilant in some way to protect ourselves.
MOORE: Would you have called the police on those two guys?
PINSKY: No, that`s the why should this -- the initial chill I have but now don`t look for by see two guys with gloves, I`m going to break into a run.
MOORE: Yeah and it was even more insidious in that I mean the first bomb went off, it was designed to get people channeled, running in a different
direction where the second bomb would be.
[19:05:04] And so, that`s -- and the guy -- the handler was really there to make sure they didn`t chicken out and protect them if there was a problem.
He was armed ready to defend them.
PINSKY: And Erin, I saw you sort of a bristle of the idea of the cold blooded and sub channeling people back in to a bomb I mean this is going,
there`s all kinds of things we can talk about, the posttraumatic stress even to forget witnessing something to say in station just witnessing that
on T.V. but more importantly the helplessness we feel it`s like a one to two punch.
ERIN FOSTER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well and I think what scares me the most is the pathology behind it. Where you were literary hurting people in to
their death .
PINSKY: It`s like slaughter.
FOSTER: Absolutely, it`s incredibly pathological and calculated which is indicative of someone who has a severe mental illness, which I know I`m
always saying but I think Steve would agree .
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The three so I would think he has a mental illness at least one. For me Dr. Drew this is I don`t, you know I
don`t think we can blame terrorism on the lack of security or some of the authorities could have done that they didn`t do that I question because
Belgium is not just another European country. It`s the home to the NATO headquarters, it`s the home to the European Union, and I believe the man
the suspect behind the Paris bombings was just captured.
PINSKY: Quite but it wasn`t part of the symbolism. Well, I`m going to go to Evy. Isn`t that part of the story here, the guy was captured, who had
been involved in the Paris attacks and that`s the reason to execute this thing or are they concerned that that guy could have out of them so they
need to accelerate their plan to pull this thing off?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECRET SECURITY EXPERT: No, I think it`s a bit of retaliation but we`re going to see a lot more of this and I`m not trying to
be negative I just it`s our new world. But some of the things that you can`t look for and one of the things that they trained us in the law
enforcement capacity is that to notice behavior, sometimes you`ll see them clean shaven, a individual sweating profusely, you`re looking for behavior,
not the items that someone is wearing much that`s really important.
If you are in a public place, you see someone behaving erratically. There furiously sweating maybe there`s wires sticking out of their suitcases or
shirts or anything, pay attention to those things. If even if it doesn`t feel right, go up to someone in law enforcement and say, that doesn`t feel
right. And let them make those decisions. Another thing .
PINSKY: Evy, tell me -- I want to interrupt you, Evy.
POUMPOURAS: Yeah.
PINSKY: Tell me about the escort that in addition to the cold bloodiness, the chill, the wearing two gloves, all that stuff. Again, the
professionalism makes you shudder but this business of an escort that person has never heard of that before. Is he wearing a disguise should we
look for putty noses or you know (inaudible) mark glasses these guys almost wearing I mean, who is this escort, how do we find those guys?
POUMPOURAS: You know, this is very unique, you typically don`t see an escort. It maybe - I shouldn`t say that that sometimes can happen they
want to make sure that the two individuals will carry the attack out maybe he was meant to be part of the attack and escape. Sometimes with these
suicide attacks, they would recruit these young men to do the attack, and then right before they`re about to execute, they would change their mind so
he might be there to just make sure if they don`t do it, he`s going to do it for them.
PINSKY: Or Steve could you - oh, wow really, so you think so?
POUMPOURAS: Yeah.
MOORE: Yeah, I`ve seen that lot. We worked one bomb case in Indonesia, where the suicide bomber had a switch or he didn`t know he was a suicide
bomber he had a switch to arm it and get away, and disarm it if he needed to leave. They all went to bomb right then if they were both in some
switches.
PINSKY: What are you thinking, Sara?
AZARI: No I mean, I`m just -- this gives me the chills I don`t know what can be done we practically go through TSA naked and there`s still this
stuff happening in the area before you get to .
PINSKY: It`s interesting to me we heard so I believe both Ted Cruz and Donald Trump said today, we have to define what this is I mean well it`s
Muslim extremism right that`s what they`re saying right. If we don`t define what it is the genius Abraham Lincoln was he defined situations,
these were not confederates, these were insurrections therefore they were in improper alignment therefore I can take action to preserve the union.
We have to know what we`re fighting, until we can decide how to fight it. It`s like making a diagnosis, no diagnosis, no treatment.
Conversation goes on in this and later, debts, affairs, murder. A husband mourning his dead wife lies to police ends up in prison for life. We`re
getting to that more after this.
MELISSA KNOWLES, T-MOBILE DAILY SHARE: I`m a Melissa Knowles with the T- Mobile daily share at this hour.
[19:10:00] The website Gawker has been ordered to pay Hulk Hogan an extra $25 million in punitive damages for posting a portion of a sex tape.
That`s on top of the $115 million he was awarded last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY GENE BOLLEA/HULK HOGAN, WRESTLER, ACTOR: It feels great I`m really happy about everything that`s happened. And I think we made history today,
because I think we protected a lot of people from maybe going through what I went through. So we`re very excited and very happy.
NICK DENTON, FOUNDER, GAWKER MEDIA: We have heard the jury`s decision, and we look forward to going to the Appeals Court, where the law will be
followed and all the facts. That`s all I have to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw many injuries, I saw people dead, I saw everything broken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just go under the sink. And in the second explosion, went. And everything is black and I see -- when I go out, I see
a lot of people with blood, and I just go -- I just run out of the airport.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a known firefighter, I have almost 45 years of service and it`s the first time I see something so terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Of course, the terror attacks in Brussels today left 30 dead, 230 wounded. It`s a staggering number. The airport and subway station were
the focus of the attacks, ISIS now has claimed responsibility. I`m back with Erin, Sara, Steve and Evy.
Hours after the attacks police carried under raid and they found a male bomb chemical products and an ISIS flag. So, my question Evy, was there a
larger attack planned in your opinion?
POUMPOURAS: You know, it`s quite possible, but I mean, I think that this is pretty large. I think if you think about it, they hit a subway and then
they hit an airport. It`s pretty significant.
[19:15:00] What I think we`re going to see is a pattern. And the concern is the terrorism that we`re going to have, the lone wolves, the groups that
are working on behalf of ISIS that are following these procedures, San Bernardino, Paris attacks and I think we`re going to have a long fight
against us because we are fighting an ideology.
One of the things that law enforcement needs to do, other than upping the security, we need to work closer with our Muslim communities. Because
quite often these Muslim communities that are within our countries here in the U.S. and Europe, they know things, they may surmise things, they have
information but they`re such tight knit communities, they typically don`t go to law enforcement. That`s one of the problems that we do have in the
law enforcement community is that getting information, getting good informants because the information is what`s important.
PINSKY: Erin, let`s talk about watching these videos. You had this, you`re I mean, intense, the most reaction every time we put the videos up
there, what is that?
FOSTER: I`m thinking about my children. You know, the clinician in my switched off and the mom in me immediately kicked in. And I had this flash
of, what if someone was hurting me with my children toward a bomb?
PINSKY: Yeah, you took your kids, you brought them thinking you were escaping danger, and you brought them into certain destruction, it`s just -
- guys think about that. Think how this, I want the audience to think about how despicable and inhuman this enemy is.
I`m sorry, but that`s what this is. Let`s just call it what it is. People often on my show, accuse me of making excuses for people, and, you know,
trying to explain things. I`m always trying to explain things. And you can brought up -- but this is bad, this is evil, this is not OK. These are
innocent people being slaughtered. Sara?
AZARI: I agree with you. And I -- yeah I pretty much defend anything in anyone. There`s no defense for this. This is -- and I, you know, I think
while they might have some mental illness. It`s ultimately the ultimate act of hatred. It`s evil. And I just don`t know what we can do to ...
PINSKY: Well, we got the experts here. I mean, Steve, the other thing is these guys seem, you know, everybody very brought up the issue of these
lone wolves and individuals operating under their own, under the sort of ideology of ISIS. But look, these guys look professional. They`re
trained, let`s not kid ourselves.
MOORE: No and Evy is right, they`re , you know, we`re dealing with a lot of lone wolves. But in the Belgian situation, I`m not sure that these are
lone wolves this time. I believe that Belgium is having a huge problem of people going over to Syria, getting in the battle for a while which gets
some really good at small unit tactics and making bombs and they come back.
And in those kind of situations, they may not be lone wolves. They may be direct attackers.
PINSKY: And not to mention, I mean, you know, I don`t want to get into the politics of this, but there are lots of people. I mean, the French army
that concurred Europe was only 100,000 strong, right?
MOORE: Right.
PINSKY: And we have hundreds of thousands of people coming out of this situation and pouring over Europe? Evy, you want to comment on that?
POUMPOURAS: Yeah, and -- yes, there`s so many individuals that actually there in Greece. So I was recently there, and went to some of the sites
and some of the town hall meetings and even the Greek citizens there are very worried about these terrorist attacks even on their own soil.
It`s a difficult thing, how do we fight it. But the comment to earlier to what you`re guest was saying, you know, what do I do as a mother. We need
to kind of change a little bit our thinking. When you go to places, look for exits, look for what would I do if this happened? I know it`s not the
way we want to think. But seeing as how our world is transitioning, have that mind-set.
And, you know, what? Don`t always follow the herd. I always say it, don`t follow the herd mentality. Just because they`re going one direction, does
not mean it is the right direction.
PINSKY: Well, but Evy, if you have a bomb that goes off to my right, I`m not going right, I`m going to left. I mean how do you decide where to go?
POUMPOURAS: Right or you may can go forward or you can go back. So those are the things you need to think about, just have surveillance of your
area, be aware of your surroundings, whether you go to a restaurant, a mall, an airport. Always know what`s going on Think of the airplane, what
if the steward is say to you, your exits maybe behind you. Why do they say that to people?
Because people forget and everyone wants to go out the main exit or the same way they came in. So all I`m saying, Dr. Drew is let`s adjust our
mentality so we can protect ourselves.
PINSKY: And Steve, it`s get low, right? Isn`t that the get low, get out?
MOORE: After the explosion, yes.
PINSKY: Right and get low and get out .
MOORE: To get out, low is where the most explosion force is going to be.
PINSKY: Oh, really.
MOORE: That`s why you see legs being lost.
PINSKY: Oh, my God. And you lose your fine motor coordination in the setting of something intense like that.
MOORE: You can`t really operate a cell phone, right?
PINSKY: No.
MOORE: It`s sometimes just best to hunker where you are. But you don`t know how they`ve got it planned. So you can`t give somebody instructions
on what do I do if a bomb goes off because you don`t know where -- the only you know is if there`s another guy, he wasn`t standing next to the bomb.
[19:20:04] So, you know, stay where you are if you were close enough to the bomb.
PINSKY: And Erin, let`s talk about the fact that I and I think many viewers we watched this footage. Give them a tendency to watch this stuff
and not be able to look away. Is that unhealthy? Your opinion?
FOSTER: I think so ...
PINSKY: It`s some of it`s good right to make. I want people to watch here Evy and here Steve and learn from this. But then again, we are tired to
look away from all of this awfulness.
FOSTER: But we have to be educated. You know, I have four children. And I say to my kids, stay alert, stay alive because we travel a lot. And
we`re in busy places and so I think to a degree we have to watch this and know what`s going on.
PINSKY: I`m so glad my kids are grown up. Oh my God.
It`s so awful. What are the age ranges of your kids?
FOSTER: Seven, eight, nine and 12.
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. I mean, it`s just, I can`t -- is this the world we want to live in? If it`s not, we have to get act. Evy, don`t you agree
we have to do something active about this, right? We can`t all sit on our hands.
POUMPOURAS: No, we can`t. And we can`t really look to the FBI to authorities to solve this for us.
I do believe that this is going to be a long term process. It`s not going to be like getting rid of, you know, think of World War II with the Nazis.
Again, that was an ideology, we had a whole bunch of people kind of combing forces, doing things that were apprehensible but yet they were done. We
fought the war and we won.
I think this is going to be long term and we need to kind of come together as a world as a society and function together communities. Communities are
so important because it`s the people close to these individuals that see these abnormal behaviors. That see what`s going on, that can pick up the
phone and call police and say, hey, I think something`s going on with my brother, my sister, my cousin, my friend, or what have you. It`s so
important.
PINSKY: And Steve, just last thoughts. And again we needed to find it and call it out. And go after it.
MOORE: We need to realize that this is a war against western society not by Islam, but by some crazy people claiming that republic.
PINSKY: In the name of it. Yeah I understand it`s a complete distortion. But ...
MOORE: But you have to go after them because if they are fighting for their survival, they don`t have the time and resources to hurt others in
other countries. We need to pressure them to the point where they have no other time on their hands. Except to say how will I live until tomorrow?
PINSKY: And when I had this audience filled with Muslim Americans, I`ll say the same thing I said to them there and they actually agree with me
which is they have a P.R. problem because they need to say very loudly, we don`t have anything to do with these idiots, these are not us. These are
distortions of us, but then you need to help the rest of us take care of this cancer you have living among all of us.
Thank you guys.
Next up, a husband shoots his wife and himself. But tells police, just a botched robbery there. I walked in the beach, some dude comes up and
shoots then it shoots him? But the cops weren`t buying it. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:27:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 2002, St. Augustine Florida. Justin Barber and his wife take a late night stroll on the beach, when all of a sudden.
DISPATCH: 911, what is your emergency?
CALLER: Well, I think somebody`s been shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His wife April is shot dead. He`s shot four times. Justin tells police a man attacked them, tried to rob them. But things
don`t add up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had on her jewelry and expensive ring, earrings and her watch. If this were a robbery, why was nothing taken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there`s more. Justin isn`t exactly the faithful type.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he had as many as five extra marital affairs during the three year marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s also having serious money problems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got himself quickly into $60,000 in debt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And stands to collect $2 million from April`s life insurance policy. Detectives conclude that on August 17th, his wife
finally fed up with his infidelity, tells him she wants a divorce.
Later that night, Justin lures his wife to the beach, tries to drown her then shoots her. He then shoots himself to make it look like a botched
robbery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Justin Barber ultimately sentenced to life in prison. You will hear him in his own words, we`ve got his deposition taped and a bizarre
conversation immediately after the murder.
Back with Erin, Sara, Evy and joining us conservative commentator Joseph C. Phillips. Now, I have our own Jean Casarez jail house interview with
Justin. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN CORRESPONDENT: What happened?
JUTIN BARBER, CONVICTED MURDERING WIFE: Things got out of control very quickly. And he started shooting. And we fought. We fought for the gun.
And that`s, you know, it was a struggle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, we went back and found Justin`s deposition tape. This was 10 months after the murder, have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBER: He was moving the gun at me as he was yelling. We started fighting and I tried to get the gun from him and I couldn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you grab the gun?
BARBER: I think I did, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean actually get your hands on the gun?
BARBER: I had his arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you put your hands on the gun?
BARBER: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you notice that you had been injured in anyway?
BARBER: I don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Evy, does he appear to be lying to you. Are there holes in how he describes that incident?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. This is a great piece, and it`s such a -- we`re talking about murder and this is actually like a lighter subject compared to what
we were just talking about.
PINSKY: I`m afraid so.
[19:30:00] POUMPOURAS: All right. I know. So just on this -- his first sentence alone, right then and there, like I don`t bother interviewing him
anymore. He said -- Justin said, he was moving the gun at me and he was yelling. OK, right that, right then and there. He was moving and he was
yelling. It`s not - that`s not proper speech. You say, he moved and he yelled. This happened in the past tense, you speak in the past tense.
He is not doing that. This is a textbook of somebody who`s making something up and they are thinking almost in this present moment. The
other thing he says, "We started fighting." You don`t start to fight. You fought because, again, this happened in the past.
The other thing, "I tried to get the gun from him and I couldn`t." Then they go on to ask him about, did you grab the gun? He knows whether he did
or did not grab the gun. But as they push him and they asked him repeatedly, he does what? He changes his answer.
He goes from, "I think I did, yes," not committal right there. "I had his arm." So now, "I don`t have the gun." Then it goes to, "Oh, I don`t
know," which is the traditional statement people want to say when they just want to be like, "Hey, leave me alone. I don`t know."
And then finally, when they asked him, did you notice that you had been injured in anyway? "I don`t remember". How do you not remember being
injured? You were shot four times. Case closed.
PINSKY: I`ve got -- well, we go to commercial break. No, but I`ve got have some other stuff. This gets even more interesting because six months
before the murder, here is what he Google, "medical trauma", "right chest gunshot", which is precisely where they submise (ph),he shot himself. And
it was later revealed that this guy had been cheating on his wife with as many as five different women while they were married. One of his
mistresses, Shannon Kennedy, took the stand. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was essentially, you enjoyed his company. And he was having things that he enjoyed with you.
What sort of things did the defendant say about his wife or his marriage?
SHANNON KENNEDY, MISTRESS OF JUSTIN BARBER: He said that he loved her. He just couldn`t live with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joseph, what do you think of this guy?
JOSEPH C. PHILLIPS, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, the first thing is I don`t have this kind of expertise to pick apart to how people say things.
PINSKY: Yeah.
PHILLIPS: But, I was an actor for 30 years, and I recognize bad acting when I see it. That was horrible acting, the fake crying, no tears, trying
to generate emotion. Clearly, in my opinion, he`s lying. He`s acting. And I just have to say, in summary, in the words of Johnnie Taylor, "It is
cheaper to keep her."
He is in jail for the rest of his life with no chance of parole because what? He didn`t get along with his wife? What are you talking about?
This is insane. Divorce, take a walk around the block, go for a long drive, you don`t murder your wife.
PINSKY: But he wanted the money, too. It`s $2 million. But before I get Sara defending him, I want to Erin more into the pathologist guide. Sex
addict by -- what the hell is going on with this guy?
FOSTER: We didn`t discuss this, but when I was reviewing, I thought, sex addict, narcissist.
PINSKY: Yeah. That`s what it looks like to me. He may when to even further, psychopathy maybe even. I mean, he may not have cared at all
about his wife .
FOSTER: Yeah.
PINSKY: . in reality. I mean, he`s capable of it.
FOSTER: Well, there`s this grandiosity that I`m seeing and a belief and a pattern of a belief that I can get away with this, I can do whatever I
want, which is indicative of both addiction and pathology.
PINSKY: And going to the wall, I guess, and going to the mat (ph) rather of shooting himself.
FOSTER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Sara, what do you think about that?
AZARI: That`s was so mind blowing about this, is that he wants $2 million. He wants whatever the community assets are. He wants to get rid of her
because he is having affairs. But to shoot himself, even though he carefully and selectively did it to avoid vital organs and bones, I mean,
who does that? But here`s the thing.
PHILLIPS: Not suspicious at all, is it?
AZARI: The -- when you take these pieces of evidence alone, they`re not enough. I mean the guy that has affairs. There`s a lot of guys have
affairs. That doesn`t mean they`re going to go kill their wives. The Guns N` Roses song that was deleted, I want to knew .
PINSKY: We`ll get to that. I`ll show that.
AZARI: OK
PINSKY: I`ll show you that.
AZARI: OK, I`ll save it for later.
PINSKY: But, let me -- all right, finish your thought.
AZARI: But, you know, but ultimately, the golden nugget, the most damming evidence was the research on the internet .
PINSKY: It`s crazy.
AZARI: . about the gunshot wound to the right chest. I mean, what more -- so, even though I would defend them, I can`t defend that. That`s -- that`s
just .
PINSKY: Too bizarre.
AZARI: Too bizarre.
PINSKY: Now, in the deposition, the attorney really leaned in of a bit about his sexual practices with this mistress, Shannon Kennedy. Take a
look at this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And can you tell me what frequency you became sexually involved?
JUSTIN BARBER, SUSPECT: I don`t recall it. It was four or five, maybe six times.
UNIDENTFIED MALE: And when you were -- I assume when you say sexually involved, you had intercourse with her, right?
BARBER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When you did, what form of birth control, if any, was used?
BARBER: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t remember?
BARBER: No, I don`t.
UNIDETIFIED MALE: Did you use a condom?
BARBER: It would be -- yeah. I probably did, maybe I didn`t. I just don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bad acting again, I think so.
PHILLIPS: Absolutely. What do you mean you don`t remember?
PINSKY: Yeah. He -- I see it more there in this being more than when he seems upset, because I want to believe he`s upset, I think. Here, he just
seems evasive and just .
PHILLIPS: And lying, despicable.
AZARI: And I think his problem is he says too much. He needs to shut up.
PINSKY: Well, but it`s him, Sara. He`s grandiose. He`s narcissistic.
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: He gives so much detail that he`s dug a whole for himself. He`s given so much detail that they had a perfect sketch of the assailant, who
really was not the assailant, right?
PINSKY: Joseph, last thoughts?
PHILLIPS: At night -- I was going to going to say, I`m constantly amazed that people think they can get away with these crimes. Forensics, we`re
going to find out everything. We`re going to look at your ...
PINSKY: Joseph, I don`t understand how it is .
PHILLIPS: .now, there`s fingerprints .
PINSKY: Forget the crime. How did he do the five affairs? How did the -- he pulled battle of that.
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: Right.
FOSTER: Over three years.
PINSKY: It`s disgusting. Next up .
PHILLIPS: I mean, he had time to do anything else.
PINSKY: How does that -- right. Well, in fact, it`s such craziness right there. I don`t know, but you`re right. But right, with just that
behavior by itself, I just go oh, well this is ...
AZARI: Red flag.
PINSKY: Red flag. How did he pull that off? Well, he`s capable of just about anything then.
Next up, more from Justin Barber in his own words. And later, the colorful troubled Rob Ford, friend to the show, died today. I have a few thoughts
about him and what happened. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:40:39] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This crime was heinous, atrocious and cruel.
BARBER: He was pointing a gun at me and he was saying something to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s planning the staged robbery six months in advance, so that he can appear to have been shot, but all the while,
wouldn`t be seriously injured.
BARBER: I tried to get between them, and the gun went off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could Justin Barber really have staged this whole event?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So it seems, Justin Barber murdered his wife, staged the scene to look like a robbery. The motive, one of the motives, I think we discussed
to this panel, the sex addiction is a big piece of it, and the grandiosity, and the sense of invincibility. But, there was a life insurance policy
worth $2 million as well.
Back with Erin, Sara, Joseph and Evy. Now, we reached out to his attorneys and here is what he told us. "I believe that Justin Barber is actually
innocent and that his conviction was a miscarriage of justice."
Sounds like Sara. But you did bring up -- let me throw you a little bone. That the day of the murder, you mentioned this Guns N` Roses music.
AZARI: That was deleted or he -- yeah, he deleted it.
PINSKY: He downloaded it then deleted it.
AZARI: But the moral of the story is nothing is ever deleted of your computer.
PINSKY: Right, and this lyric to the song where I quote, "I used to love her, but I had to kill her."
AZARI: Right, right. And, you know, that -- OK, that sounds terrible. But again, alone, the song is out of context. You`ve got to look at what
else was deleted? Did he -- maybe he deleted a bunch of songs. Maybe he deleted his whole iTunes library.
I mean, however, in a circumstantial case like this, you`re not just looking at each piece of evidence alone. You`re looking at it in the
aggregate. And then the aggregate, especially with that research you did about the gunshot wound, I mean that just seals the deal.
PINSKY: Right away.
AZARI: Actually, that`s what gets in the connection.
PINSKY: It is hard to shoot yourself in specific spots. He shot himself up here. There`s a very critical nerve plexus that goes through here that
supplies the arm. I don`t how he missed that. But Joseph, if you had a question about sex addiction.
PHILLIPS: No, well -- yeah.
PINSKY: I think we got a question.
PHILLIPS: Well, now it just kind of threw me. I wanted to piggyback on something that Sara said, and we were talking during the break, just the
impossibility of getting away with this kind of crime. And I think on one of the shows, the forensic show, they were saying that murders make 31
mistakes and they only remember five of them. You`re just not going to get away with it.
PINSKY: And we`ve had, and again, we`re discussing a "Forensic Files" that aired today and we thought it was an interesting case to review. There`s
so much behavioral stuff here with this guy having five affairs, and then being grandiose, then shooting himself. And yes, we`ve had actual law
enforcement like detectives screw things up. Now, in this particular case, Justin went back to the scene of the crime. He told detectives his
versions of what happened. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBER: He pointed the gun at her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. How far away is he at this point?
BARBER: He is still -- from me to you. I mean no, he`s close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s close, OK.
BARBER: When he pointed that gun at her, I tried to stay in between them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
Did he say anything? Did you say anything?
BARBER: He didn`t say anything. I didn`t say anything. He shot. I mean it was loud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, Erin, it strikes me. He`s so focused on seeming earnest in this interview. If that were me, I think there is something on that
beach. I would be having a panic attack. I would be having posttraumatic stress, right?
FOSTER: I was thinking the same thing. It`s that, he was in the area, sends memory would kick in and he would be overwhelmed.
PINSKY: Yeah. Evy, you agree with that?
POUMPOURAS: You know, this is the thing, Dr. Drew, people justify and rationalize things to themselves. And as, you know, I`ve interviewed a lot
of people who committed crimes. I was a former polygraph examiner and interrogator, and I would sit in the room and people would rationalize to
me why they would commit a horrible crime.
And I would -- it was never their fault, of course, and I would never say that it was their fault because the idea was for me to get a confession.
But, when you want something, you will sell it to yourself to get what you want. This guy had made his decision, "This is what I`m going to do."
PINSKY: Or Evy, also to avoid something, too. To avoid consequences, to avoid losing something.
POUMPOURAS: Or, he`s going to go to jail, right now.
PINKSKY: Right. That`s right.
POUMPOURAS: That`s what he`s worried about. But, you know what, this is the other thing, a lot of people watch these shows. This, you know,
"Forensic Files", all these crime shows and they think they know how to commit a crime. They think that they know how to dissect a crime. Even
when I was an investigator, people would be like, but can`t you just lift the fingerprints off this toothpick? I saw it on an episode of such and
such and it`s like that`s T.V.
PINSKY: I tell what you I did learned from watching, listening to Evy, as I`ve still lost faith in humanity. Everybody`s a potential criminal.
Everybody commits crimes. I`ve got to scrub all my phones and my -- and then I got hacked yesterday on e-mail.
POUMPOURAS: Oh, don`t even .
PINSKY: No, Evy, I know .
POUMPOURAS: I`m so upset with you about that.
PINSKY: I know that.
PINSKY: I want everybody to know that I warned Dr. Drew almost two years and yesterday.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s true.
POUMPOURAS: Dr. Drew, give me your phone. You need to be careful. I even offered my assistance, my former colleagues. He`s like, no, no, Evy, I`m
good.
PINSKY: Evy, I need your help. I need your help. I`m Drew. What would this be called, the denier of technical -- technological weaknesses? I`m a
denier. But, now I`m a believer.
Next up, we have more about this. But later on, well, just a bit later, in fact, Rob Ford, perhaps one of the more interesting mayors the City of
Toronto has ever had, he died of cancer recently. We`ll talk about more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:50:39] JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We drove 9.6 miles. Why did you drive so far?
BARBER: I don`t know. I don`t know how far it was. I knew that we came from that direction. That`s where town was. It wasn`t the first thing I
did. I tried to flag cars down on the highway. They wouldn`t stop, three cars.
CASAREZ: When you were asked, why you didn`t just stop at one of the homes? You said, I didn`t want to wake up an old man.
BARBER: The hindsight justification would be that these are very expensive beach owned. Do people even live there fulltime? Are they vacation homes?
Can I take the chance of picking this house, climbing the gate, trying to get help and not finding any there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s Justin Barber. He shot his wife in the head, then he shot himself, trying to make it look like a botched robbery. Now, he`s always
maintained his innocence.
Back with Erin, Sarah, Joseph and Evy. And Evy my question is have you ever seen a case where somebody shot themselves? Actually, went to so far
as to shot themselves? And by the way, investigate how to shoot themselves as a way of creating a defense against murder?
POUMPOURAS: No, usually you`ll see that someone stab themselves or something like that. Most people have the nerve to do that. To shoot
yourself, it takes a certain type of individual. But, I`d like to ask what kind of caliber weapon he used to shoot himself. The rounds of the weapon
could make a difference.
PINSKY: In other words, you could be a little more targeted with where you put your injuries, right? Now, look at that. It`s all soft tissues. We
have in the shoulder, up in the trapezius. He just -- he really like calculated exactly where to go. Just the flesh move that we see in the
movies.
POUMPOURAS: Yeah, I mean that takes a lot. The only thing that`s also obviously fishy about it is that she gets a headshot and he gets four
wounds spread out all over his -- the extremities of his body, his body pretty much.
PINSKY: Well, he`s fighting with them, trying to get the gun away from Sara.
AZARI: And how often does -- I mean Evy can speak to this. How often does an assailant leave somebody alive behind? I mean that`s also very .
PINSKY: Well, and then by the way, he drives -- rather using her cell phone which is active, he`s drives in. And that`s what Jean Casarez was
asking, why he didn`t knock on the door on one of these houses there?
AZARI: No, he had to be the hero and the victim in this. And, you know, but I think this case was as circumstantial as it was. There were no
witnesses. These were the only two individuals at the beach. It was a, I think, easy conviction for the jury because it was replete with forensics.
And jurors love science, they don`t have to speculate as much.
PINSKY: Well, and by the way, people`s -- in a traumatic situation, people`s perception of what happens is completely can be distorted and
memories are even more distorted. This is the one thing, just because someone is an eyewitness doesn`t mean they remember or understand what
they`ve just seen.
Next up, I`ve got my farewell to Rob Ford.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rob Ford seemed to live his life trying to prove that you can fight City Hall.
ROB FORD, FORMER MAYOR OF TORONTO: Could you get off my driveway, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was the Mayor of Toronto from 2010 to 2014, but it was the images of Ford`s smoking cracked cocaine in the spring of 2013 that
gave him global notoriety.
FORD: Yes, I have smoked and cracked cocaine. But no, do I? Am I an addict? No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The circus that had become his life, all irresistible father for hours of late night comedy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe he`s cleaning up the city by smoking all the crack in it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it was the sobering diagnosis of cancer that forced him to pause, contemplate and fight for his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yeah, Rob Ford, former Toronto Mayor died today at 46. In 2014 -- now we covered him in 2013. I did not know that in 2014, he was diagnosed
with pleomorphic liposarcoma.
Now, pleomorphic just means aggressive. It`s like a completely broke -- it`s a cells that have become severely neoplastic, an aggressive form of
soft tissue cancer. Sarcomas are usually soft tissue like fat, muscle, that sort of thing. Later on, he went through surgery, chemotherapy. And
yesterday, he was announced that he was in palliative care which is essentially hospice, and now, he is no longer with us.
Sara, you had a question about him?
AZARI: Yeah. Do you think that there`s a relationship between the crack and the alcohol abuse and all that stuff and possibly his cancer, either
the onset or maybe even aggravating the cancer?
PINSKY: Certainly, he probably smoking cigarettes and alcohols that are carcinogen, but he`s such a really young man developing cancer. I think
this is one of those things. Joseph?
PHILLIPS: No, I was tagging on, he`s asking about the weight. He was a heavy man.
PINSKY: Yeah. Didn`t -- and listen, you know, that all that is just the weight, the alcohol, cigarettes all associated with cancer. So, he was a
set up for cancer. He is in a multiple carcinogenic processes. But, liposarcoma is pretty rare. It`s pretty unusual cancer. And to have it be
that aggressive, usually that stuff can be cured. To be that aggressive is awful. It`s sad. And that the addiction, never -- he never care in terms
of that, but he had another disease associated, takes him out, which is often what happens with the cancer
AZARI: I thought he went for treatment after the 2013.
PINSKY: Yeah, treatment, I don`t think he did that much. But, you know .
PHILLIPS: But he even admit that he was smoking.
PINSKY: Right. And look, the deal is when people die of addiction, often it`s inside phenomenon. Its infection. Its cancer. It`s inadvertently
overdoses. That`s what usually takes people out.
DVR, please and you can watch this show anytime. We thank you all of watching us. Our panel did a great job here. Thank you guys for being
here and thank you for watching.
Nancy Grace is next.
NANCY GRACE: Breaking News tonight, live to Texas suburbs.
END
