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Dr. Drew
Mother of Three Killed, Husband Now on Trial for Murder; The Custody Battle of the Indian Child Welfare Act; Special Needs Child Kneed in Back by Adult? Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 28, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:00] DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW HOST: Live and a shocking video of a special needs child at school. He is four years old. There it is, let`s
get started.
A mother of three shot in the head after New Year`s Eve party, her death ruled a suicide, but now, her husband, who himself is a former corrections
officer, he is on trial for murder. The court is wrapping up for the day. We`ll go there live in a minute, but first watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM FALLIS, ASHLEY FALLIS` HUSBAND: My wife just shot herself in the head. Please help me. Please help me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The official cause of death remains suicide until now.
FALLIS: You`re accusing me of killing my wife, I`m not supposed to get upset?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I received new information regarding the case that was brought to my attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it clearly does not look like a suicide. She had three little kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the neighbors claimed that they overheard him tell his father that he did indeed shoot and killed his wife.
NICK GLOVER, LIVED NEXT DOOR TO FALLIS FAMILY: He stood up. He was -- what I heard him saying, "Oh my God, what have I done? Oh my God, what
have I done?"
FALLIS: I didn`t shoot my wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Lisa Guerrero, Correspondent for Inside Edition, Investigative Reporter, Lisa Bloom, Civil Rights Lawyer at the Bloom Firm
and Legal Analyst for Awo.com, Segun Oduolowu, Entertainment Journalist, and Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, Former Special Agent Secret Service.
Lisa, you`re investigative reporter. So, what do you make of this?
LISA GUERRERO, CORRESPONDENT, INSIDE EDITION: Well, I -- sometimes, when you look at this kind of cases, you think about in terms of witnesses who
has nothing to gain, right?
PINSKY: Right.
GUERRERO: You know, obviously, the defendant, when he gets -- you know, if he does testify, he`s going to be concerned about his own well-being and
his freedom. You look at somebody who`s a next door neighbor, who is one of the witnesses, who claims that he heard the defendant say, "What have I
done, what have I done?" That neighbor has nothing to gain by testifying.
PINSKY: But I would say, Lisa Bloom, I would say that somebody in shock might be thinking what did she do or who knows, what would come out of your
mouth in a situation like that, do you know what I mean?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Yeah, that`s possible.
PINSKY: Or maybe he`s thinking I gotten in a fight with her and I caused her to do this, what have I done, I shouldn`t have been more vigilant, you
know what I mean? Doesn`t mean he picked up a gun and shot her.
BLOOM: I don`t know, it does seem a little odd to me. Listen, a mother of three little kids ...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: ... without a suicide note, without ever telling any human being in the entire world ...
PINSKY: Let me give you ...
BLOOM: ... that she was thinking of killing herself.
PINSKY: Let me give you a little primer about suicide, OK. That when people get into that state, it`s almost -- it can be thought of even --
some psychiatric colleagues of mine have made the argument that it`s almost a psychotic state. You`re not in your -- in reality, you`re not of your
normal mindset. You`re in overwhelming pain, and you need the pain to stop now, and it seems like a very appropriate method to make the pain stop.
And she`s written previous suicide notes, this woman. It`s not -- yes, she`s had previous suicidal ideation.
But here`s what the -- Segun, you want to make comment?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Oh, well, I just feel that Lisa squared here has already to spring him up. I mean, I -- you know, you -- I
agree with you, you hear this -- the mother of three and they`re using that as a defense. We`ve seen mothers drown their kids in bathtubs. Put in SUV
and drive off into the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it`s highly unusual.
ODUOLOWU: We`ve -- hold on, but we`ve talked about it. This is a highly unusual case. And as a lawyer, shame, Lisa. They`re using hearsay.
I mean, the next door neighbor, what ...
BLOOM: Well, that`s not hearsay. First of all, that`s not hearsay. That`s ...
ODUOLOWU: Depending (ph) on what you heard.
BLOOM: Right, that`s a witness to a contemporaneous statement. And that is admissible in court. And I think it is admissible in court.
PINSKY: Let me show you what he said happened that night. This is the husband. Here is what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said, "Hey, you want me to get high, I`m going to get high. Now, don`t listen to (inaudible). I`m like, "You`re going to do
whatever you want to do." (Inaudible) I`m the one who told you (inaudible), and I`m the one that has to be able to get high. And she
said, "I`m going to do what I want." But I wouldn`t kill my wife over her going and getting stoned, because I even told her ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But when you said you guys were arguing, she was fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know, (inaudible) her closing a closet. And I see the gun. That`s when I told you. I heard that boom (ph) and I saw
that smoke. And I ran over to her. I grabbed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And now, this -- Lisa, your star witness, the neighbor who says he overheard Fallis confessed to the parent. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLOVER: When I heard him saying, "Oh my God, what have I done? Oh my God, what have I done", he proceeded to say, "I shot my wife." That is pretty
clear. I mean, I wouldn`t forget or not hear something like that and not remember it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But again, what have I done may mean what have I done to precipitate this, what didn`t I do to help this woman, how did I allow this
to happen, doesn`t mean ...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That is a possibility. Now, I want to show you a little more evidence here during the interrogation. This is when the detective first
tells him his wife had died. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your wife did not make it. Your wife did not make it.
FALLIS: She was breathing when I was holding her. She was breathing. She -- they told me she was breathing when she left the house. I didn`t shoot
my wife. I wasn`t even by her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Evy, it`s two to two out here. Settle the score for us, please.
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: You know, this one`s a little bit difficult but I have to say, when you watch him and you hear his speech,
they`re very truthful indicators. A lot of people think, "Well, look, how mad he`s getting, look how defensive he`s getting." I have to say the
interviewer, the detective doing the interview did not do a very good job, that`s a poor interview, she`s very biased. And it`s a very
confrontational interview.
She`s almost kind of going at it with him. And if you weren`t the guilty, which I`m not sure he is guilty, he would really -- she really shut him
down. She`s kind of getting in a space, and that`s really not the way to get someone to confess. But he`s also extremely angry, defensive at one
point. There`s a portion in the video where he takes his bottle water and he slams it down. I mean, he`s angry because all she keeps telling him is,
"You did it, you did it." She`s not allowing him to express something else. She`s not allowing him to give any other -- to explain any other
thing.
As far as the witness testimony, guys, though, those are not always accurate. They`re about 77 percent accurate and they`re very, very weak.
So to actually charge him, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it. And I have to tell you, I do not feel comfortable. You know
me, Dr. Drew, if I think somebody is dirty or guilty, I`ll come out and say it.
PINSKY: No, Evy, you think everyone is dirty and guilty, that`s what I learned.
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: And in this example ...
PINSKY: So for you to be taking an issue of this ...
POUMPOURAS: Yeah.
PINSKY: ... so I`m listening very carefully.
POUMPOURAS: I have very serious reservations with this one. I just don`t feel comfortable, his speech is very truthful.
The other thing he`s -- he does something -- he said, "I did not shoot her." He said that if you watch more the interview. "I didn`t shoot her."
When somebody commits a crime and they`re guilty, they don`t like to use those words. They`ll say, "I didn`t hurt her. I didn`t do that." But to
say, "I didn`t shoot, I didn`t murder, I didn`t kill", those are very emotional words, Dr. Drew. They`re motive. And, people don`t like to say
them especially when they`re guilty.
When they`re innocent, they have no problems saying it, "Hey, I didn`t rape her. Hey, I didn`t shoot her." So there`s just a lot of things here going
on that I just don`t feel comfortable to say ...
PINSKY: And -- yeah.
POUMPOURAS: ... that he was part of this.
PINSKY: And I see more than defensiveness and anger, I see desperation. I think that`s the primary emotion we see in this man. And I can -- think
about this yourself out there, if you were in this position, somebody accusing you, is you`d feel desperate to make yourself heard.
GUERRERO: You say desperation, that you see desperation. I see really bad acting.
PINSKY: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: And let to over the top to me, let`s ...
ODUOLOWU: You`re going to take the words of that hail bailey farmer`s gun bearded neighbor ...
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: It was also another investigator also claims ...
ODUOLOWU: Five investigators, five separate -- of separate investigations found him innocent ...
PINSKY: Hold on, stop it. I want to get ...
BLOOM: But another cop.
GUERRERO: Another cop.
PINSKY: Hang on. I want to hear another cop who`s used to be blind jury. Evy, what do you say to that, acting, yes or no?
POUMPOURAS: You know, I`m sorry, and she just told him his wife died, what kind of reaction would you had if somebody told me my spouse died. And
then on top of it, they told me that I did it, I would be losing my mind. I would have knocked out that detective ...
PINSKY: And before ...
ODUOLOWU: Tell them, Evy ...
POUMPOURAS: ... you`re losing how to take that.
PINSKY: Then -- and before -- this is what I want to show you, this footage of them. This is just before the incident. Does this look like a
guy who`s planning to kill his wife? Now ...
GUERRERO: He admitted that they had an argument.
BLOOM: Woman who`s intending to shoot herself.
GUERRERO: To shoot herself.
ODUOLOWU: Come on, he`s not that good an actor.
PINSKY: But again, they ...
BLOOM: He doesn`t look depressed.
PINSKY: ... he may have precipitated something. I don`t know what it -- what kind of exchange they had when he said, "What did I do?" I think he
may have said something that he knew would be deeply hurtful to her, didn`t understand how fragile she was and boom, that was it.
Next up, court is just recessing for the night. We will talk to a reporter live who was covering the case. And later, I have a shocking video, there
it is, of a classroom attack. The victim, a four-year old special needs student. The perpetrator, a teacher, 20-year veteran. Back up for this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FALLIS: I didn`t shoot my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me what happened then. Tell me what happened.
FALLIS: I just told you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you have those scratches on your body?
FALLIS: I just told you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you -- no, that is not from you doing that.
FALLIS: You know what, yeah, it is. When you shave your chest, you sit there and I do this all fricking day.
PINSKY: That is Tom Fallis being interviewed by a police just after his wife had been shot dead. He says it was suicide, but he now is on trial
for murder.
Back with Lisa, Lisa, Segun and Evy. And several pill bottles were found in Ashley`s purse, that is the victim. Seroquel, which is sort of a
sedative antipsychotic medication, clonazepam, which is a relative of volume is an anti-anxiety medication. It says amphetamine, I can`t read
the bottle from here. But I`m betting that`s dextroamphetamine, which is Adderall.
Defense also says that Ashley had written suicide notes in the past, Lisa.
So, she is under psychiatric care. She`s had previous depressed episode. She is tending towards suicide. And suicidal (ph) is a funny thing. I
mean, some people can have very prominent capricious suicidal thoughts and impulses that come over them. And again, they`re not in their right mind
when they do it. They are not thinking about their three kids.
The same woman that says, and I`ve seen this many time, that says, "I could never ever -- who would have suicidal thoughts", she would come to her
family, I`ve seen these many times, go, "Because of the kids, I could never do this, I could never do it." But when they get in certain states, pow
(ph), that`s it.
BLOOM: So can we talk about the forensic evidence for a minute ...
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: ... because I think that`s significant. So, gunshot residue is typically left on the hands after somebody fires a gun.
PINSKY: Yup.
BLOOM: Not found on his hands, although he could have washed.
PINSKY: Found ...
BLOOM: And it is found on her hands, although he could have taken the gun and wiped it on her ...
PINSKY: So she`s losing a touch ...
BLOOM: He is a law enforcement officer, so he has a clue about guns.
PINSKY: You think he pointed ...
BLOOM: He`s got scratches on his neck, which he says is from shaving his chest. So explain to me how you shave your chest and you get scratches on
your neck.
PINSKY: Well, guy -- some guys have ...
ODUOLOWU: Some guys are like, "Oh, yeah ...
PINSKY: Yeah.
ODUOLOWU: ... cold sweater (ph). He have to ...
BLOOM: But he didn`t say he was shaving his neck, he said he was shaving his chest.
PINSKY: He said he was scratching his ...
ODUOLOWU: Yeah, he said he was scratching.
PINSKY: ... but that`s after shaving, you get itchy after. But listen, why would somebody have bilaterally scratch the neck if you`re going to
shoot them.
BLOOM: Because they had a fight.
GUERRERO: They had a fight.
BLOOM: Maybe she`s trying to get the gun ...
ODUOLOWU: But explain the gun powder residue. You`re basically saying that in the span of all this, because kids outside, he shoots her, go then
washes his hand, puts gun powder residue on her hand, parents are there and live there.
BLOOM: What the inspector did, he`s now sitting ...
ODUOLOWU: We just -- we saw on the forensic files where that a guy said that he didn`t shoot his wife, but there was gun powder residue on his
hands and not hers, which was a dead give away.
Let`s follow the forensic evidence, I mean, if we want to ping (ph) this woman bad, we can say she`s a pill poppy, she`s written suicide notes
before, I don`t want to do that. But if Jesus were condemning this man, this woman is no -- is now no angel that we couldn`t condemn without saying
...
PINSKY: Evy, I want to play the 911 tape for you that was played in court for the jury. I want you to tell me how this impacts the jury. Have a
listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FALLIS: Ashley, no. Ashley, no. Ashley, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir.
FALLIS: You`re staying here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir.
FALLIS: You`re staying here. You are not leaving me. You are not leaving me. You look at me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir.
FALLIS: You look at me. I`m not leaving you. You stay right (inaudible) here.
Ashley, Ashley, I`m right here, baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What do you say, Evy?
The jury is hearing that.
POUMPOURAS: You know, I mean it -- the jury is hearing that. They`re going to be much more empathetic towards him. They played a 911 call and
they`re going to feel significantly for him. But again, all those evidence, it`s very weak evidence, that`s the problem. And then we know
she`s had three suicidal thoughts. History, she`s on these medications. Sometimes, these medications as you know, Dr. Drew, they make you even more
suicidal.
So, there`s concern, you know, I just don`t think that we have enough to charge him. I think we`re going to see him being acquitted. There`s not
enough evidence here.
PINSKY: And we`re going to have a whole gun conversation here, too. But that`s a separate matter.
Lisa Bloom, should he take the stand?
BLOOM: Yes, I think he should and I think he will because he probably thinks he`s a great witness, most cops do.
GUERRERO: Wow.
BLOOM: I mean, he`s -- listen ...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Because listen, he -- listen, cops are trained to testify, OK. They do it all the time. They`re typically ...
ODUOLOWU: Really, even the ones in the O.J. trial because those cops were bad.
BLOOM: Listen, they typically testify all the time. And this guy voluntarily spoke to the detective, he didn`t have to do that. He knew his
rights.
PINSKY: Evy, Evy ...
BLOOM: He knew exactly what he`s doing.
PINSKY: ... remember how you wanted to punch the investigator. I`m sure you want to switch that feeling over to wanting to punch Lisa Bloom
(inaudible).
POUMPOURAS: No. No, no. Lisa, you know what, I always respect other people`s opinions and this is a debate and, you know, and I can`t -- I`m
telling you, I can`t say one way or the other, that`s the difference here.
But I just want to correct something and Dr. Drew, maybe you can. I -- to my understanding, he was not a cop. He was a corrections officer.
PINSKY: Correct.
ODUOLOWU: Corrections officer.
PINSKY: That`s true, that`s true.
POUMPOURAS: That`s a -- let me tell you, guys, that is completely different being a corrections officer and being a police officer. Two
different animals, the training is different, it doesn`t mean he knows how to do interviews, doesn`t mean he understands how law enforcement works.
So, we really need to make a discrepancy there, that`s just not the same thing, not the same world.
PINSKY: Got it, got it. But ...
BLOOM: These officers testify in hearings all the time.
POUMPOURAS: ... again, guys, we ...
ODUOLOWU: Shut her down, Evy. Shut her down.
POUMPOURAS: And if he has -- so, and as far as him taking the stand, if his lawyers think it`ll make him look good, they`ll let him take the stand.
If they think it`s not going to make him look bad, then they`ll have him spit it out. It just depends.
But if he`s truthful taking the stand, will probably help him.
PINSKY: OK.
POUMPOURAS: If he`s lying and they start pushing him, then it might trip him up.
PINSKY: We will keep an eye on this case. Lisa, before we leave this case, could have break though, tell the one thing you said during the break
was.
BLOOM: For eight years on Court TV, I watched these cases and it almost always is true that the husband is the one who did it when the wife dies.
I`m sorry, the cops try to rule them out, generally, they can`t. And especially when it comes to police, a lot of times they say it was a
suicide.
PINSKY: So either the husbands always did it, or the forensics can`t exonerate them when they really didn`t do ...
BLOOM: Where`s the probable cause here because ...
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: It`s presumed innocence.
PINSKY: Let`s go, everybody. A child -- this is an unbelievable story. Please stay with me on this one. I have the foster parents here with me,
is a child, there she is, torn from a loving family. Those parents you see in these pictures are here with me, they`re going to tell their part of the
story. This is a story that breaks my heart and has been outraged.
Back up for this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clutched in the arms of her foster dad, Rusty Page, a dramatic scene unfolded outside their Santa Clarita home as foster mom,
Summer, and her children screamed in the background.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The agents, on a court order, removed Lexi who was part Native American, from the only family she`s known for the past four
years.
The case involved a tribal custody battle that hinged on the Indian Child Welfare Act. Lexi is 1.5 percent Choctaw. Even though her biological
parents relinquished custody years ago, her extended family in Utah has been fighting for custody.
RUSTY PAGE, LEXI`S FOSTER FATHER: The county of L.A. always talks about how important it is to maintain consistency and permanence for children,
and yet they violate that today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, the Page family vows to continue the fight to bring Lexi, their foster child, six years of age, home.
Joining me are Lexi`s foster parents, Summer and Rusty Page. Lisa Blooms stays here with me. Lisa, herself, is a foster parent. She practices
family law. And you`re going to help me out here, Lisa, thank you.
Now, Lexi was removed from your home last week and placed in a family in Utah. How`s she doing?
SUMMER PAGE, LEXI`S FOSTER MOTHER: We actually don`t know how she`s doing. We haven`t heard.
PINSKY: They don`t give you any feedback? Any ...
S. PAGE: Nothing.
PINSKY: That seems almost cruel. I`m sorry, but it just does.
S. PAGE: Yeah, it does. It is.
PINSKY: Listen, let me just cut right to my concern. I -- you know, I know this is a complex law. Lisa, let`s go through it a little bit. So
it`s a law that has been in the books since the `70s. It`s to protect the culture and well-being of Indian -- Native American children, right?
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Yeah. And, good, that`s good.
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: But, that has to be balanced against the well-being and welfare of a child, correct?
BLOOM: Well, that`s right. And this is a six-year-old little girl who for four years has lived with Rusty and Summer and their other children.
PINSKY: I -- listen, that`s what I want to get at. This is a child that already lost her biological parents. I don`t -- do tell me if I speak in
any way out of turn about Lexi. I know you love her deeply. I see what`s on your -- around your neck, which is -- you want to show people that?
It`s a Bring Lexi Home ...
S. PAGE: Yeah.
PINSKY: ... pendant. And it`s moving to see -- listen, give me your hand. This must have been held for you. Right? This is a child that already you
were working to overcome an abandonment that she had at the age of one, when she lost her biological parents.
S. PAGE: She came into our home when she was two.
PINSKY: So she was appropriately taken out. You bond with her, you spend four years with her, you give her a family. She overcomes some of those
abandonment issues?
S. PAGE: She did, she overcame quite a few of those glitches.
PINSKY: Right. And you know those are massive, those are shattering to children potentially?
And now, we`re going to put her through that again? I don`t get it. Where`s DCFS? Why -- isn`t that their role?
Lisa, I`m sorry, help me with this. Summer, I`ll go to you, what?
S. PAGE: I`m just at a loss as much as you are. You know, I don`t have any answers, it doesn`t make sense.
PINSKY: Did you plead with them? Did you get angry with them? I mean, you most have had just unbelievable exchanges with these people.
S. PAGE: We pled continuously to not do this and the harm that we understood just as simple parents.
PINSKY: But as humans, you`re going to appreciate what`s going on here, right?
S. PAGE: Right, right.
PINSKY: But dad, I -- I`m going to call you, dad, let`s -- you know, let`s go on with foster dad, step dad.
R. PAGE: She called me dad, so ...
PINSKY: She calls you dad. And you wanted to adopt her, is that right?
R. PAGE: We wanted to do what she wanted, which was to be her parents. And, so yeah, we wanted to adopt her.
PINSKY: What gotten in the way of that? OK, I don`t -- delineate if you can`t discuss and please don`t let me intrude on anything inappropriate.
But, I -- this is just so unbelievable to me that the system can fail a child so badly, but please answer that.
R. PAGE: The law gotten in the way. Weren`t now for ICWA three years ago, we wouldn`t have been able to adopt her as any other foster child. She had
been bonded and attached. Extremely bonded and attached according to all the court records, everybody agreed. But yet, a court prevails. So ...
PINSKY: So, you know, don`t -- do you worry -- let`s just look at a pragmatic issue, that was there to protect your culture and your heritage,
right?
But she`s going to (inaudible) that.
S. PAGE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: She`s going to hading (ph) the thing they want to protect the most. Your part of Native American.
S. PAGE: I am. Yeah.
PINSKY: And ...
BLOOM: And she`s not even with a Native American family now, right? She`s with the married relatives of the Native American family, and the married
relatives are not Native American. So, it`s ...
PINSKY: Rusty, that seems to affect you deeply.
R. PAGE: The whole thing affects me deeply. I mean, it`s been emotional roller coaster because we can`t explain to our own children what happened.
I can`t imagine how they`re trying to explain it to Lexi and, you know, Lexi came to us, already had a -- having several broken attachments from
previous foster homes.
And we knew when she came in what a shell of a person she was. And it took us months and months to get over those issues.
PINSKY: Now, I`m going to read you something from the Choctaw Nation, they say this about Lexi. "She`s in a safe, loving home with her relatives and
her biological sisters. Lexi`s long-time individual therapists, her social worker and her attorney, all agree it`s in her best interest to be with her
relatives."
So help me respond to that. How -- why should I, being devil`s advocate, believe that you -- we know something different than the people that have
worked with her, the attorney, the people that represent her and have decided that this is in her interest. How do you respond to that?
(CROSSTALK)
R. PAGE: Well ...
S. PAGE: Go ahead.
R. PAGE: Look at the parties that are saying it. I think that`s the extent to which we could say. But if you look at the expert testimony we
provided, the foster family agency reports they differ substantially. And if you look at a little girl being pulled from her home, how she reacts,
she spoke volumes that they can never speak.
And there`s no way she`s doing well.
We know because we`ve been there, we`ve seen what her broken attachment look like, and this is after four and a half years. It`s more substantial
now than it ever could have been before.
PINSKY: What do you do? What do you feel? What -- how do you go to sleep at night?
S. PAGE: I think it`s -- right now, I think I`m more in shock.
PINSKY: You`re shut down.
S. PAGE: Exactly.
PINSKY: Numb.
S. PAGE: When somebody starts to ask me questions from a mother`s perspective that`s where it starts to affect me.
PINSKY: Meaning what?
S. PAGE: When they start to ask me questions about what was my favorite thing to do with her, what was she like, explain her personality, things
like that, that`s where it starts to ...
PINSKY: Do you want to share that? Do you want people to know that?
S. PAGE: Of course.
PINSKY: Without asking, I`m trying not to evoke too much pain. Share with us some of who Lexi was or is.
S. PAGE: Yeah. I say Lexi was, because that`s who I saw prior to all these trauma that`s happened this past week. I know it has changed her.
She`s still probably the sweet little girl, but there`s a lot of hurt that has probably changed some of who she is. Lexi was thoughtful, considerate.
I think of -- we go to church every Sunday, and every single Sunday she`d go in and ask to help set up the little coffee cups, sugars. And she would
take them over one by one faithfully. And, she had the opportunity to be running around and playing and doing other things, playing (ph) whatever
else and she chose to help somebody else.
PINSKY: Let me bring in Troy Dunn. He`s a private investigator who specializes in reuniting families.
Now, Troy, many native-Americans reached out to you regarding this case, what are they saying?
TROY DUNN, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well so -- I have been shocked. First of all, I have a Native American -- full disclosure, a have a Native American
little brother who was adopted in Oklahoma at birth. And so, that was in the `80s when we were already dealing with this type of thing, with ICWA.
ICWA is a law, for your viewers who aren`t familiar with it, it says that they should -- Indian children should go to Indian families first and
foremost.
PINSKY: Troy ...
DUNN: Yeah.
PINSKY: First and foremost that`s different than under all circumstances. Even when it means the well-being of the child is being sacrificed.
DUNN: That is correct, and that is why we`re hearing from so many Native Americans right now. There are other tribes in the United States right now
who are horrified at what the Choctaw nation is doing because this is why so many want the ICWA law to be gotten rid of, because it`s horribly
abused. What people need to understand is, although the pages are foster parents -- and I`ve heard some critics say, well they signed up to be
foster parents that means temporary. But that`s the process of adopting children.
There`s only two plans that go into place, when a child goes into foster care, it`s either keep them there safely until they can be reunited with
their birth parents, which in Lexi`s case was not the situation, both parents out of the picture. Second place, become -- make her eligible to
be adopted. Well guess what? Of all the children who are lucky enough to be adopted from foster care, 53 percent are adopted by their foster
families. It`s the most preferred scenario.
PINSKY: And Troy -- this was your plan. This was something you were attempting to do, is that correct?
DUNN: We`re attempting to now -- so here`s the thing, if we`re going to wait for laws to change for Lexi to come home, then Lexi will be graduated
from college. A law does not have to change for Lexi to come home, but hearts have to change. I believe that family in Utah that`s holding her
are probably good people. I believe they`re under a lot of pressure from a tribe, a tribe is about to get in a whole lot of trouble socially and
publicly for forcing a law to take a child. This is basically, Drew, I don`t want to overemphasize this, let me tell you, this is judicial
abduction.
PINSKY: Well, and Troy ...
DUNN: ... it`s an abduction of a child.
PINSKY: And Troy, the graver concern I have is protecting that Chowtaw nation`s cultures and values is in everybody`s interest. They`re not doing
that, in the case of this child, they`re going to allow this child to potentially end up hating this organization -- everybody.
DUNN: ... Drew, I think it`s really important for everybody to understand, she was not born into a home with a family where they were participants in
the tribe ...
PINSKY: I understand.
DUNN: She`s with a family now that`s not -- zero percent DNA and zero percent Indian.
PINSKY: I understand, but the fact is, that if the goal is to protect, which is a value that everyone would love to protect, but let`s go have her
spend -- wouldn`t you support her spending months up there or weeks or weekends or whatever, you know, I`m sure you`d want her to be exposed as
much of that as possible from the secure base of her attached family. If you`re out there -- viewers that don`t understand the attachment process,
it is one of the most important biological processes that the human go through, the self, the regulation of emotions, everything, how do you
develop and conduct yourself in interpersonal relationships throughout your life.
It`s all set up in this attachment process and when abandonment and rapture is what you what you experience it`s devastation. Troy, you are predicting
this will work out OK. Leave us on a good note, tell me what you think.
DUNN: I believe the family who`s holding her, despite the pressure that they`re under are going to reach out to Rusty and to Summer and say, let`s
put this back from the hands of the attorney, let`s put this little girl`s best interests at heart. She does love your family. Let`s expand the
world around her and let everybody love this little girl and figure out a plan. If that happens, peace comes to all of these families immediately.
But if they remain under the pressure of the tribe, then we`re just going to have a little girl who`s going to suffer all the things that you just
correctly described.
PINSKY: Troy, thank you. Lisa, probably, yes or no?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think the more adults who want to love the child the better, but done so many of these child custody case, they typically
doesn`t end up that way.
PINSKY: All right, stay with us. Later, I have a four-year-old special needs child who appear to be kneed by an adult. Kneed in the back. We`ll
hear from the school. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The page family has taken care of Lexi since before she was two. It is a goodbye with no guarantee foster parents and little Lexi
will see each other again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her first earliest, most important attachments will be broken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Indian Child Welfare Act of 1978 or ICWA for short is a federal law seeking to keep American Indian children with American
Indian families. Lexi is one-sixty-fourth Choctaw Indian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The spirit of the law is good, may just be a misapplication in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want the world to know what`s going on with this Indian Child Welfare Act and it`s got to change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So will following the letter of the law damage a little girl more than helping her? Six-year-old Lexi was taken from her foster family in
California, forced to live the distant relatives in Utah. And a reminder, when children are faced with trauma, they blame themselves. What`s wrong
with me that this happens to me, what have I done to deserve this?
Back with Summer and Rusty Page who are Lexi`s foster parents. Lisa Bloom who has a family -- law attorney, and herself a foster parent. Now Rusty
you wanted to respond to what the things Troy said about foster parenting being a temporary situation and whether you anticipated a temporary
relationship with Lexi.
R. PAGE: Yeah, and the answer is, yes, absolutely. We knew when we signed up it was temporary. We agreed to the pain and the hurt. Lexi never
signed up for that. Lexi was born under the same rights that we are, to have the pursuit of happiness and to be able to enjoy stability in a home.
And that was just ripped away from her without permission. So roster parents can`t pursue it as if this is a temporary thing. They have to
treat these kids with the love and consistency they would any of their children.
PINSKY: And just to get this straight in my head, you were going for adoption.
R. PAGE: Not when she was first placed with us.
PINSKY: I understand, but eventually.
R. PAGE: After she was thoroughly bonded and attached and reunification services were terminated, that`s when were -- that`s when we expressed our
interest in adoption formally.
PINSKY: Lisa, you locked sort of hurt by that.
BLOOM: And listen. And you do. We as foster parents, of course we attach to these children as well. And I think it`s a beautiful thing that they
treated her just like any other member of the family.
PINSKY: This was it. This was her chance to heal the original rupture.
BLOOM: And she was having it, she was living and, you know, to experience a child being taken away.
PINSKY: I choke on this. But, mom, I`m going to ask you this. What if she stays there?
S. PAGE: Then I hope that we can have contact with her. There`s so many unanswered questions on our end but I can`t imagine what`s going on through
her heart.
PINSKY: How do you live and shutdown the rest of you life, how do you go day to day?
S. PAGE: I go day to day doing the next thing, whether that be laundry, changing my two-year-old`s diaper, making my kids` lunches for school and
constantly thinking about Lexi and wondering how she`s doing. One day at a time, I guess.
PINSKY: That sounds like how people survive concentration camps. You just -- it`s torture for everybody and you know she`s at the other end feeling
something similar. All right everybody, I`m sorry. It`s complex. I get it. There are conflicting interests here. But, why can`t we put the
interests of the children ahead of everything else? And it`s pretty simple. It`s not that complicated everybody.
And if you are dealing with abandonment issues amongst your children, it is a proof, it is a profound issue, please don`t minimize the fact of
abandonment on the developing brain. I wish you guys the best, Summer, Rusty. We`re praying for you, I`m hoping Troy is right, I`m hoping the
Lisa is wrong. Curse on you, Lisa. And we will continue to hope for the best.
And, you want to get something out (ph) Rusty?
R. PAGE: Yeah, if you want to be a voice for Lexi, you can go to safeourlexi, that`s L-E-X-I.com.
PINSKY: There you go, say it one more time.
R. PAGE: Saveourlexi.com.
PINSKY: There you go. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The teacher in this video resigned from her job at a pre-k public school in Georgia. She appears to push her knee into the
little boy`s back. Watch again as her left knee goes into his back knocking him to the ground. As he gets up she drops something to put her
hand on the boy`s head and then his shoulder. She is a special needs teacher. He is a four-year-old special needs student.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: School official say the boy was no injured but they did report the incident to child services. The teacher had been with the school system
for over 20 years. She was arrested and charged with second degree cruelty to a child. Back with Lisa, Lisa, and Segun.
So Lisa Guerrero, let me ask you first, you`re looking at the tape, you`re an investigator reporter, do you thins woman had intention to hurt that
child?
GUERRERO: Sure look like it.
PINSKY: It did, didn`t it?
GUERRERO: I looked at that tape over and over and over again, wondering. OK, she`s an older women, she`s kind of heavy statute, she`s holding things
in her hand, was there some way that she couldn`t see? But she makes a move with that knee that looks so intentional you can`t ignore it.
PINSKY: And Lisa Bloom.
BLOOM: Watch the left knee ...
GUERRERO: Watch that.
BLOOM: Yeah.
PINSKY: Lisa Bloom, mom hired a lawyer, is there a case?
BLOOM: Yeah -- listen, if you want me to defend her, I would say certainly is possible that she didn`t see the kid, she had stuff on her hand, she
came around the door, it all happened ...
PINSKY: You know what you do is you get her a neuro exam, make sure her vision is normal, make sure ...
BLOOM: Right. But I`ll tell you, there`s a lot of abuse to special needs kids.
PINSKY: I`m just saying.
ODUOLOWU: That woman should not only be fired, she should be arrested -- listen, being a teacher and working with kids, what she does is so vicious
there`s no attempt to even catch the kid, so there`s no even chance of that`s a mistake. She knees the kid, stands over him like ...
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: Watch, she also pushes him into the room, so the end of the video is telling because she stands there with him for a second as he
gathers himself, somebody hands her something, and then she shoved him into the room again.
PINSKY: OK, you see what`s up there from the Tift County, Georgia Schools.
Nothing in her previous records documented anything of a problem. She received an excellence in teaching award from the same district. Again,
nothing in her personnel file. Out of the blue, she does something weird. I say, just in case, get a medical examination. Maybe she`s having a
partial complex seizure ...
ODUOLOWU: To quote Lisa, Phil Spector made great music until he was a murderer. So I`m not having ...
BLOOM: I don`t think that`s what I said. What I would say in this case would be, thank God for the video. Because I have a case right now on
behalf of a special needs child who was abused. This child can`t talk and there is no video. Who is there if there for these children? If you don`t
have the video to show -- and a lot of them do suffer abuse because it`s stressful working with special needs kids.
PINSKY: Well, let me give you some data. The burnout rate for special education teachers, 50 percent leave the job within five years. Half of
those who make it past five years leave within 20 years. Lisa, gee, this woman has been with the school system 20 years.
GUERRERO: Right. And she recently won an award. Apparently some people felt she was a good teacher but you can`t get away from what the videotape
showed. She wasn`t falling over. The little boy wasn`t having an episode. The little boy is just standing there innocently, standing there and doing
nothing.
ODUOLOWU: Believe you lying eyes, this woman is a monster. I don`t care what award you get, you don`t knee a defenseless -- she did it from the
back. It would be one thing if, you know, the kid was throwing papers and she was trying to restrain him. She kneed him from the back. It`s a bully
move. Then she stands over him ...
PINSKY: Let me ask you this Segun, let me ask you this, what`s -- let`s just think in terms of motivation, what is her motivation?
ODUOLOWU: Frustration, anger, lack of forward movement in her job. And award is not a paycheck. Maybe it`s thankless (ph). Like you said, they
get burned out. If she`s been there 20 years and they burned out after five. She`s on ...
PINSKY: Listen, I`m playing devil`s advocate obviously, but it couldn`t have been just a bad move, you know, just -- she was trying to ...
ODUOLOWU: With a knee? I have seen better moves in kung fu.
GUERRERO: She`s 71 years old. What is she doing by the way teaching special needs kids at 71 years old?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: No, there`s a lot of wonderful people over the age of 70 doing good things. You don`t have to put them out to pasture.
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: I`m not saying we put them to pasture, but should they be taking care of four-year-old, five-year-old little babies like that?
ODUOLOWU: Well, I mean she had a clean record until this. How could anybody have known?
PINSKY: All right, we got to go to break. I have a special report, I want you guy`s opinion about it. We get back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING)
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: So where you -- did you -- have you taken singing classes?
PINSKY: Yes, I took a couple of lessons. That was from (inaudible) where I have a midday show, midday live. But -- yes, I for five minutes thought
I was going to be singer, and thank God, I turned back from that because I`m a terrible musician. My son is a great musician coached me into that.
BLOOM: Oh stop, so were you nervous? Because of all the broadcasting you do, this is a very different thing.
PINSKY: Yeah, I nearly soiled my pants. Don`t laugh. You know that`s the condition I was in. But what`s even more bizarre was, I was
psychologically pretty good because I was prepared to get my son and coached me up for it, but my body reacted like a grizzly bear was about to
attack me. My heart was 180 ...
ODUOLOWU: Really? Because -- like there`s a point in the theme where you`re singing and then you`re like rock forward and give it like it was,
yeah. That was great.
BLOOM: You felt it like halfway through, you felt, like I got this?
PINSKY: Yeah, I felt like I could start singing now. And what`s weird is that, it`s a song that I didn`t expect to be emotional when I was singing
it, because ...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: ... the heart is not the same.
PINSKY: ... and it`s terrible, it`s a terrible song with terrible lyrics, it`s impossible and I don`t know -- Francis Scott (ph) should be held
accountable for this. But, be that as it may it is a song that we -- OK, enough, enough ...
BLOOM: No it isn`t.
PINSKY: It`s something we all feel very emotional about, particularly as you get to those final refrain ...
BLOOM: Yeah.
PINSKY: I mean it is -- and when you`re singing with an audience, you get to share it with them. It`s a little bit a of high, it`s a little bit
interesting and -- hear that they`re saluting I felt very connected to everybody.
BLOOM: So the other thing you can`t do ...
PINSKY: Shut up.
GUERRERO: Speaking though of emotions of it, what I found fascinating is, as I watch the entire tape ...
PINSKY: Yeah.
GUERRERO: The audience at first is razzing you a little bit ...
PINSKY: Oh yes, they weren`t happy ...
(CROSSTALK)
GUERRERO: ... but you won them over. You won them over. That was amazing.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Everyone would have been your coach.
PINSKY: I feel it go silent about halfway through, I`m like OK, now I can just turn them around ...
ODUOLOWU: Are you doing this again? Are you going to do this again?
PINSKY: It`s up to the L.A. ...
ODUOLOWU: But you won?
BLOOM: That`s right ...
PINSKY: Go Kings, the Kings fan is one of the greatest fans in sports, thank you for that opportunity. Thank you to the L.A. Kings but I`m
available for other ...
ODUOLOWU: But if you want to win ...
PINSKY: Thank you guys. DVR this show (ph), you can watch us any time, but I thank you all for watching us. Nancy Grace is next.
(MUSIC)
END
