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Dr. Drew
Cop on Trial for Wife`s Murder; Caught on Tape: Savage Beating by Deputies; Body Cam Video Released: Mentally Ill Man Shot By Police. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired March 30, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:02] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight we have a savage police beating caught on tape. Were witnesses bribed for their silence? Plus,
just released body cam video reveals the killing of a man who is simply mentally ill. Police are calling it, "More than justified." What do you
think?
Let`s get started. Tom Fallis says he watched his wife shoot herself in the head, but the state is not having it. He is now on trial for her
murder. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): 2012, New Year`s Eve. Ashley Fallis, mother of three shot dead. Her husband calls 911.
TOM FALLIS: My wife, she shot herself in the head! Please help me!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): But why would she kill herself? Her husband says they fought over her wanting to smoke weed.
FALLIS: I didn`t want her to go get high. I didn`t want her to go smoke weed. And then I heard the freaking gun thing, and I`m like, "What are you
doing?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): But now, four years later Tom Fallis is on trial for the murder.
FALLIS: I did not shoot my wife. I did not pull a trigger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): The prosecution presents two key witnesses who say they heard Tom Fallis confess.
NICK GLOVER, NEIGHBOR: He proceed to say, "I shot my wife."
CHRIS GRAVES, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: I heard him screaming, "I can`t believe I shot her," and, "I can`t believe she`s dead."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): The defense cites Ashley may have been depressed.
we just lost -- could have lost or had our third miscarriage. Do you know how depressing that is for a woman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): That`s the Dear Tom letter that came from the computer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DREW: Today the defense presented a witness with shocking testimony. This man says he had slept with Ashley, the victim, 6 months before this event.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): You had an extramarital affair with Ashley Fallis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And you know that Tom Fallis knew about that, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): There was one time when you met up with Ashley at her place of employment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you met in the parking lot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And while you were there with Ashley, Tom Fallis came driving into the parking lot, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And he got out of the car, and Ashley got out of your car, and Tom Fallis`s behavior scared you enough that you
locked your doors, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Rolled up the windows?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): You could hear him cussing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: More and more wild all the time. Joining me, I have Robin Sax, Attorney, former Prosecutor. Anahita Sedaghatfar, Attorney of Counsel to
the Cochran Firm, and Karamo Brown, T.V. host and Social Worker. Also, Evy Poumpouras, Security Expert, former Special Agent, Secret Service,
DREW: All right, Anahita, it seems as though the defense was calling this guy to the stand. But, didn`t he become a witness for the prosecution?
Isn`t this a backfire?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Yes, that was kind of interesting. But, maybe it goes to show she was not happy with her marriage and that goes to
perhaps her wanting to kill herself. I don`t think the prosecution --
DREW: It doesn`t go to him wanting To kill her?
SEDAGHATFAR: You have to question why the defense called her as a witness.
DREW: That`s what I don`t understand.
SEDAGHATFAR: Either way I don`t even think it matters. I think the defense has done a great job in this trial. They`ve been able to really
use the prosecution`s witnesses and spin it so that it bolsters the defendant`s case --
DREW: Give me an example --
SEDAGHATFAR: And one of the main witnesses --
DREW: Give me an example.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK, the initial crime scene investigator who was supposed to be the star witness for the state got on the stand. Mind you, 35 years
experience. He was the individual who went on the crime scene. He said he spent over 100 hours evaluating the evidence, looking at everything. And,
guess what he concluded? That this was a suicide. Not only did he conclude it was a suicide, but he said that all of the evidence corroborates the
defendant`s version of events. And I think that is a huge win for the defense. Because, the jurors are seeing that this investigator, the man
who actually went and examined the crime scene --
KARAMO BROWN, T.V. HOST, SOCIAL WORKER: For the prosecution.
SEDAGHATFAR: For the state, for the prosecution.
DREW: Robin, you agree?
ROBIN SAX (ph), ATTORNEY: well I think that the defense had a great case until they put these two witnesses on today. Both of the witnesses they put
on today actually helped the prosecution`s case. And the prosecution has the burden of proof. And there`s this great jury instruction that these
jurors are going to hear. They`re going to hear the judge say, "If there are two reasonable versions of the truth, one that says you`re innocent and
the one that says you`re guilty, you need to adopt the one that points toward innocence."
Therefore, everything the prosecution did, there was two versions and you didn`t really know was it suicide, was it not, was there gun residue, was
there not, did he confess, did he not. Therefore, you would have to have voted innocent. But, now the defense puts these two people, creates this is
story, this narrative that makes sense like, "oh, ok, so now he had a reason to kill her." Score one for the prosecution today.
BROWN: No, robin, no. I still don`t see a reason. I`m not a lawyer like either of you, but just from watching this, as a man, if I was to catch my
wife in a car having sex with another man, he would have got shot that night. I wouldn`t have to have waited two months or something else, however
long this took for this to happen.
I don`t understand while all of a sudden -- it was ruled as a suicide, as you said, and let`s leave it at that. And then we`re taking testimony of
the guy who cheated on with your wife. No, he shouldn`t even be in court. Now I want to go to court and kind of shoot him like, "get out of here."
Like, "my wife`s dead, and --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But no one shot him.
DREW: Also in court the jury got to See past so-called suicide notes That Ashley had allegedly written. Here`s one on her laptop, it was written 6
months before her death. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Dear Tom, I am sorry with all that I have caused. I`m not happy about it. I`m sorry for your pain, but I can no
longer go on living this life. I am a failure at everything, a wife, a mom, at having a career, at school. Everything. I have so much pain on the
Inside; I can no longer take it. You deserve better than me. I can`t go on any longer. I am sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: And it goes on and on with really despondent and sort of self- loathing testimonials. There`s another key witness for the prosecution. A former police officer at the scene. He says -- this is, again, this is
another twist -- this guy says he heard tom, the defendant, confess.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Graves: I heard him screaming, "I can`t believe I shot her," and, "I can`t believe she`s dead." And I told him what I had heard, and then I said, "I
think you should do something, maybe with his hands or get him in a patrol car."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t you put him in cuffs?
GRAVES: It wasn`t our scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: But Evi (ph), he claims he heard this confession, then he does nothing about it? Does that make sense to you?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: You know, I listen to his statement here and I`m thinking he`s completely discredited. First of all, he lost his job
because he was not, he -- due to lack of candor for something else completely. So they fire him. To lose your job, it --
DREW: This officer, you`re talking about this officer?
POUMPOURAS: yes. But to lose your job as an officer, usually is a very difficult thing. And the other thing is how do you wait all these years?
You have a duty as law enforcement. How do you think, "oh, I`m not going to say anything." To me, I really don`t think that his -- I know they have him
testifying, but you can`t -- it`s almost like he`s just making a mess of everything.
And, I think the way this case has been handled, honestly, has been very, very messy. You know, all from -- we talked about the interviewing, the
interrogation. That was not done very well. The fact that we talked about gun residue on the suspect`s hands -- or, well, the husband`s hands --
DREW: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: they never actually checked him prior to doing the interview. He could have maybe washed it off, done something else. And then now this
testimony from this officer saying, "i was on the scene, I heard him say this and did not say anything." That is completely baffling, right there.
DREW: And, this guy changes testimony a couple times. I`ll show you that, we`ll keep the conversation going.
Later on I`ve got a mentally ill man shot dead by police. The question is were they justified in this shooting? You will see some just-released
bodycam video that is shocking. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FALLIS: My wife, she shot herself in the head! Please help me! Call 911. Call 911. You`re not leaving me. You`re not leaving me.
FALLIS: I saw her at the closet door, pull the trigger. I ran over, grabbed her, was holding her. I called 911. My daughter came in. I told her to
leave. My other daughter came in. I told her go get her sister, call 911.
DREW: Tom Fallis on trial for the murder of his wife. He says she committed suicide. Closing arguments begin tomorrow. It will be in the
hands of the jury. I am back with Robin, Anahita, Karamo, and Evy. And, Robin, he chose not to testify, good idea?
SAX: No, I have a question for you, though. I`m turning the tables on you.
DREW: Please, please.
SAX: I mean, you`re a psychologist. A suicide --
DREW: I`m not a psychologist. I`m an internist, but go ahead.
SAX: Well then, an internist, but you have a psychological background.
DREW: Yes.
SAX: You have a suicide note written six months beforehand. Do you think that is --
DREW: Relevant?
SAX: Is it close enough in time to be considered still suicidal?
DREW: 100 percent important, in that some people have suicidal ideation and tendencies. Some people do not. And so, someone who is showing suicidal
ideation, you can predict that if they become depressed again, it will manifest again.
And, if you add something like an extramarital affair and a miscarriage, that is somebody I would expect to be suicidal for sure, for sure.
Yesterday we heard that this woman was impulsive and that her friends where she was employed, were fearful of her impulsivity. That can be someone if
she gets angry suddenly at her husband could do something horrific. Anahita?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, I was going to say, that`s another problem for the prosecution in this case. Because, I don`t think they ever laid out a
motive. They don`t legally need to do that, but jurors like to hear motive. And, on the flip side of that, I think the
Defense did an excellent job Showing that she was suicidal. She was under psychiatric care. She was clearly mentally Unstable. She was hoarding prescription Medications. She had suicide notes, and then we find out that she suffered a
Miscarriage on the day of her Death.
DREW: A big deal.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. But, it is a really big --
DREW: Karamo, you agree with me, social worker --
BROWN: I do. In the court of public Opinion, not even just being a social worker, just as a human being, It`s hard for us to see and Think a woman would kill Herself. It`s easy to say, "The man did It. He killed her, obviously."
DREW: Well, usually that`s what happens --
(CROSSTALK)
DREW: That`s what I`ve learned from forensic files. That usually when it`s an affair thing, and there`s a husband involved, the husband did it.
BROWN: But in this one, there`s way too much evidence here. She was clearly depressed, there was something going on there, like you just said.
Those suicidal ideations, that`s a big sign and a big key.
DREW: However, one thing to think about, right, there`s this guy that had this affair with her, is it possible that this guy is the father of the
child she was carrying. Here`s more with this guy that she had the affair with. That we, again, we only know for sure it was six months before she
died. There may have been more. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you reignite a relationship with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When did you reignite that relationship with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it was July of 2011.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was that a sexual relationship?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And approximately, to the best of your memory, when did that sexual relationship terminate, with Ashley Fallis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it was in August.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: Evy, does this testimony change your thinking about this case, at all?
POUMPOURAS: It does a little bit. What I want to know is, did the husband bring this up to police, or did they find this out on their own? That would
be a big issue for me. Did he keep it quiet that she was having an affair and then police did their investigation and this came up? Or was he
forthcoming and said, "hey, my wife was having an affair."
And there was something else that kind of disturbs me about our suspect here. And, again, I don`t think we have enough to -- I really don`t feel
comfortable saying he`s guilty in that case. Something with a text. He sent a text message after the shooting. He had time to send a text message to
his parents to say, "i need you now." I`m really sorry, I mean, take yourself for a moment and think, "ok, my wife is dying in my hands." Do
you have time to pull out your cell phone and send a text message? Are you even thinking to text your folks? So, to me, there`s a little bit there of
like, the only time you want mom and dad in the room is if we`re in trouble or we need help. Why does he need help?
DREW: Well, he needs help because his wife is dying. It`s horrible, even Karamo would call his mom. Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Doctor drew, I would think the logical thing would be after the ambulance arrives and that`s taken care of, then you would say, "hey,
we`re on our way. Hey, my wife was shot. Hey this happened." It`s just, if we`re just looking at the language, it`s very odd language to say, "i need
you now." --
SAX: Well, what about the --
POUMPOURAS: I`m wondering did he want to speak to them about it and just to kind of let them know what was going down.
SAX: -- they are his parents.
POUMPOURAS: Parents lie for their kids.
DREW: OK, wait. Karamo first.
BROWN: I would say this. This is just human nature for me. If something happens bad in my life, after I`ve called the authorities, I`m going to
call my mom or dad. I`m going to call the next person that I feel would be there to protect me. That`s just human nature to me.
DREW: But, let me just (inaudible), let me throw a little wrinkle on you.
BROWN: Yes, why not?
DREW: Throw a little wrinkle. When you are really upset, you lose your fine motor coordination. I wouldn`t be able to text if I were just holding
my wife after she shot herself. My hands would freeze up. I would be shaking too much. He managed to still do that.
SEDAGHATFAR: But what about this --
BROWN: Is he guilty because he knows how to spell?
DREW: No, I`m just saying it`s the weirdest part, that he could text.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- So the prosecution argues that it was a rage killing. Maybe it`s because she was cheating on him, whatever, it was a rage
killing. Again, you have the state`s star witness, the criminal investigator who`s done this for 35 years, who`s investigated hundreds of
these crimes. He says in rage killings, you don`t have one gunshot wound. It`s more egregious --
SAX: They`re not arguing that (inaudible). Because it`s not first degree.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, apparently that -- they`re saying heat of passion, which is second degree, which is a rage killing --
DREW: Robin you want to say something.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- Evidence doesn`t support that.
DREW: Go ahead, Robin.
SAX: I just think you cannot discount the fact that you have two witnesses saying that he confessed. That, you can`t just put that aside. You have two
independent people. You have a neighbor next door who could hear this clearly. He`s 15 years old, he doesn`t have a horse in the ring, he doesn`t
care. He`s coming, he`s testifying. And then you have this officer who`s lost his job, who has to come back with that shame, also having heard that.
DREW: Can we play the tape of that officer flip-flopping a little bit? Apparently he changes his story, Robin. Can`t we -- not the neighbor, the
officer from the previous segment. We heard him saying that -- the guy that lost his job -- we heard him say that he lost -- that he heard him confess.
He said, I shot my wife. Do you have that footage where he says something different? They`re looking for it right now.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, he never recorded it, he never put it in a police report, he never told anyone about it.
DREW: And, here he is -- watch this -- flip-flopping a little bit. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAVES: Screaming, "I can`t believe I shot her." And, "I can`t believe she`s dead."
And I told him what I had heard, and then I said, "you know, I think you should do something maybe with his hands, or get him in a patrol car."
. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t you put him in cuffs?
GRAVES: It wasn`t our scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: OK. Well that`s the wrong -- that`s him repeating --
SEDAGHATFAR: Like I`m -- that`s my point. (If it wasn`t about that, I wouldn`t be in here) --
DREW: I want to play the one where he says something entirely different. But, just trust me, he has other testimony where he does.
BROWN: But, we`ve already learned that he`s not credible. And also, when it comes to a 15-year-old, I have had a 15-year-old in my house as a
parent, and there`s no way that I`m believing him saying that he heard something like that. Sometimes, not always, you know, you have to take the
validity of the children. But, right now, all of this is fishy to me. I think this was a suicide and we just want to point the blame at this man.
SEDAGHATFAR: How about his daughter who said she saw her dad take out the gun?
BROWN: Wasn`t she four at the time?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, she was young and we know -- I wouldn`t have -- like, people that testify as to what they saw or heard during crimes, we know
those are not really reliable.
BROWN: At all.
SEDAGHATFAR: Studies will show -- and, it`s not just because they`re trying to be deceitful, or they`re lying but, it`s just something that goes
on with the brain when you`re witnessing something traumatic, I`m sure you --
DREW: Right, memories are distorted, capricious, and not reliable. That`s why they rely on forensic evidence. That`s why we have the forensic files
(task vision, it was great).
But listen, we will keep our eye on this. More to reveal tomorrow. We have some very important guests with us tomorrow that may shift some new
light on this case and change some of -- well, I want them to change my mind about this, because I`m hearing they might.
Next up, sheriff deputies in real trouble tonight. A video shows them viciously beating a suspect and more. There it is, take a look at it.
We`ll get into it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The suspect this surveillance video shows being beaten by Alameda county Sheriff`s deputies, back in November in San
Francisco, has taken the first step towards filing a civil rights lawsuit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is not only excessive force, but it`s brutality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The claim also alleges other deputies failed to intervene to stop the excessive force. They also say there was a
coverup alleging the two deputies now on administrative leave filed false police reports to cover up the misconduct. Finally they allege a third
deputy just placed on leave tried to bribe witnesses of the beating with cash, and a gold necklace stolen from the Petrov (ph).
GREG AHERN, SHERIFF, ALAMEDA COUNTY: Our policies don`t include excessive beating, they don`t include taking jewelry, they don`t include bribing
witnesses.
DREW: Now the man having been beaten in that video is accused of having stolen a car, leading deputies on a high-speed chase, endangering the
safety of others. But the officers who struck him have not been actually charged with anything.
A third officer is accused of stealing the man`s jewelry, cash and cigarettes, and then offering them to a homeless couple who witnessed this
thing, to bribe them to stay silent about the incident.
I`m back with Robin, Anahita, and Karamo, and joining us, Randy Sutton retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Lieutenant, National spokesman for
Blue Lives Matter. Now, the guy what was being beaten was a five-time convicted felon. Randy, should that matter?
RANDY SUTTON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN P.D., RETIRED: Well, it shouldn`t matter as far as what took place during the arrest. It does play a role,
however, because it was the conduct that precipitated this use of force that played the instrumental role in what later happened. So it --
DREW: So, but, wouldn`t it be sufficient to take him down and restrain him? Why did they have to -- we`re witnessing him, we`re watching him get
just beaten with a baton, now.
SUTTON: -- Well, OK, let`s talk about this. When the officers were in foot-pursuit of the suspect -- Now, this is after a high-speed chase -- and
they had every legitimate right to tackle him, and to take him into custody. Now, they had the right and the duty to use what is called, "the
force necessary to effect the arrest." I -- .
DREW: All right, hold on, hold on. I`ve got to stop you there. Anahita`s -- yes, go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Hold on, I am (very much), I can`t. I mean, he`s right about the law. But, Dr. Drew, that is a beating. That`s one of the most brutal
beatings I`ve ever seen. And, there`s no way you can argue, looking at that, that he posed a threat to anybody with all of this, he was on the
floor --
DREW: Well, no guys, let me -- hang on. But, maybe they were trying to literally break his legs because he kept getting up and endangering people.
SEDAGHATFAR: You can`t do that, you can`t -- Dr. Drew, you can`t do that. This is clearly excessive force.
DREW: But my concern -- well it looks like it, Robin, you agree?
SAX: Right, no, I agree. I mean, it`s completely excessive force. The thing that`s outrageous to me is we have probable cause for a felony
arrest, right here. We have an extortion, we have a bribery. If this was any regular person, they would be in custody --
DREW: They`re the police.
SAX: -- there would be 48 hours, they would be at their arraignment right now, we`d be talking about whether or not there was going to be a trial.
Why aren`t these people -- these cops being charged?
DREW: The other thing, there was a -- I don`t -- we`ll keep the conversation going but there`s a man who -- the guy was beaten -- claims
that deputies took a so-called trophy photo. If you watch this, after he was battered, on the ground, and bloody, they go down and take a picture. I
don`t understand why they would be doing that. It`s a very strange -- the officer appears to kneel down, take a photo of the suspect, and himself --
there it is.
SAX: Selfie.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s sick.
DREW: Or, is he just taking a picture of the -- I don`t know, ridiculous.
SEDAGHATFAR: Taking it of the body, that`s what it looks like. If he --
DREW: So, not of himself. He`s just taking a picture of what the --
SEDAGHATFAR: It looks like it`s of the body, that`s what I read. And thank goodness, Dr. Drew, this was caught on tape. Because, if it was not on
tape, it would be another he said, she said. And, who knows what would have happened. And, when you have officers falsifying police reports,
bribing witnesses, I mean, yes, he`s going to prevail in this lawsuit. And, they should criminally charge these officers. That`s assault and battery.
DREW: Randy, I want you to finish your point, go ahead, you were trying to say that there was necessary force, go ahead.
SUTTON: Let`s go back to the initial use of force, OK? First of all, when they first went -- put him on the ground, and tried to get him into
handcuffs, the first thing they tried to do -- because he was resisting to begin with -- remember, he had already led them on a chase, he`d already
injured a police officer. He was a threat, there`s no doubt about that. Plus, he`s a five-time ex-felon.
So, they had the right to use their batons in order to gain compliance. The problem is, how many strikes is reasonable. And quite honestly, now, I`ve
investigated many, many police uses of force. And I have issues with this, absolutely. There`s no doubt about it.
But there are other factors at work here that need to be factored in here. Remember, they were just Involved in a critical incident -- critical
incident of this pursuit. And there is -- there have been plenty of studies done that reveal that the physiological things that take place to a police
officer in a pursuit, are exactly the same -- they`re called an adrenaline dump. It`s called adrenal stress. It`s called the combat stress. And
it`s identical to what takes place to a soldier in combat. So, there are - - there`re other issues at work here. That means that what took place, especially as far as some of the other factors that happened afterwards,
the bribery, the ...
PINSKY: Right.
SUTTON: ... misconduct ...
PINSKY: What about that?
SUTTON: ... this is something that simply cannot be tolerated.
PINSKY: OK, all right. So there`s some agreement with you there, Robin.
SAX: And that does make it not a he said, she said anymore, because you had two homeless people where they gave this guy, a suspect`s necklace to,
which they later would -- were able to sell for $1,500, was able to get some cash, so we had some actual witnesses here.
PINSKY: Karamo, would buzzing more about this in anything else, you and I talk about it all the time when it comes to law enforcement. I`m going to
bet that this guy had a whole mental health history. I`m going to bet that most of these felony charges were drug related. I`m not saying the guy is
a good guy or not a -- you know, and doesn`t deserve to be -- lose his freedom. I`m not making that case at all.
I`m saying, why can`t we do a better job of handling the mentally ill by law enforcement? It`s not that hard.
KARAMO BROWN, TV HOST: I agree with you 100 percent, Dr. Drew. And the fact that we have a man who is the head of Blue Lives Matters, which
trivializes Black Lives Matter, in my opinion, saying that, "OK, well, part of this is they need to get excessive force." No, what you need to do is
you need to train your police officers better. And that`s what we should be spending the money, because no matter -- I`m almost sure I -- and I
don`t know the research, but when they were chasing this man, they did not know that he was a five-time felon.
So, all of a sudden, that`s all in the argument that (inaudible). It`s not an excuse. It`s not. And then you`re beating him ridiculously in the
street. And then you take a selfie with it, it`s just disgusting.
PINSKY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And turned off their body cam.
BROWN: And turned off their body cam.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Well, they weren`t turned on. They weren`t turned on. And one of them accidentally turned on. And I think, Dr. Drew,
I said this a million times, we should mandate all police officers to wear these body cams. We have the technology. I`m not sure why it`s not
mandated in every single police ...
PINSKY: And Karamo, I brought up the five-time felon thing myself to make the point that it shouldn`t matter.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: Agree with you, five-time felon. And everyone should be handled accordingly.
BROWN: The officer brought it up as well.
PINSKY: He did. That`s true.
All right, we got more to say. And later on, I`ve got another use of force situation. This one, again, involving a mentally ill individual. But this
one turned out tragically, shooting. You won`t believe the footage. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The deputy begins hitting the suspect with his first as a second deputy arrives. He pulls out his baton, repeatedly striking him
in the head with great force. Then both of them begin swinging their batons, hitting the man as he lies on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the ground, they can easily handcuff hi. But they just keep hitting him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The complaint alleges a deputy stole Petrov`s gold necklace and gave it to a homeless couple as hush money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I look forward to hearing the police explain this conduct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The California man says deputies beat him, stole his jewelry, used it then to bribe witnesses who had seen the attack.
I`m back with Robin, Anahita, Karamo and Randy. And joining us on the phone is Sergeant J.D. Nelson with the Alameda County Sheriff`s Office.
Now, the -- thank you for joining us, Sergeant, I do appreciate you being here.
My question is, deputies are on paid administrative leave. Is this punishment or is this for investigative purposes?
SGT. J.D. NELSON, ALAMEDA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, that`s part of the -- in California, we have what`s called the police officer`s bill of
rights, and that falls under that, where you keep them on administrative leave until such time that they`re either charged or fired via an internal
investigation.
PINSKY: We`re all looking at this and it looks pretty -- you know, it looks intense to us. How do we understand how that`s appropriate use of
force?
NELSON: Well, I`m not sure you can say that. I think the video speaks for itself.
You know, as was said earlier in your segment, you know, you can use what`s reasonable to in effect an arrest. And these deputies are going to have to
account for every baton strike and every word that they wrote in their reports and every action, just like I do every day when I go to work. I
have to account for everything I say, everything I write and everything I do.
PINSKY: And everyone seems completely, I don`t know, outraged at this bribery incident. Is there any explanation or defense for that?
NELSON: There is none. If that allegation is true, then the deputy or deputies that did this are no different than the criminals they`ve arrested
in their career.
SEDAGHATFAR: What about the beating?
NELSON: There`s no place ...
PINSKY: (Inaudible) that, too. No, there ...
SEDAGHATFAR: But, I mean, I feel like the focus so far from the department has been -- they`re focusing on the bribery allegation versus the beating.
And everyone is agreeing, all the officers are agreeing, Dr. Drew, you can only use as much force that`s necessary to subdue the victim. They had
every right to chase him, they had every time to knock him down, even hit him, to get him on the floor. But he is flat on the ground and they are
beating him, and pummeling him ...
SAX: But the ...
SEDAGHATFAR: ... two officers.
SAX: The sergeant just said that he`s going to account -- they`re going to have to account for every baton.
SEDAGHATFAR: Sort of the impossible.
PINSKY: Every baton stroke.
SEDAGHATFAR: They need to be terminated and they need to be criminally charged, Dr. Drew. There`s no way that can be justified.
PINSKY: Randy, do you agree with that?
SEDAGHATFAR: No way.
RANDY SUTTON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN PD, RETIRED: No, I believe that you`re talking about a witch hunt. There has to be an investigation. You
don`t just -- you don`t take 20 seconds of videotape and you convict someone of a criminal offense with that.
SEDAGHATFAR: 13 minutes (ph).
SUTTON: There has to -- the -- what -- the beating itself took about 20 seconds, OK? So, if you look at the totality of the circumstances, then
you make a determination as to guilty or innocence, whether it rises to the level of criminality or whether it`s to be handled internally.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with that. I agree with that. But I wish that this individual had the same due process rights that these officers have in this
particular case. They were judge, jury and executioner of this ...
PINSKY: Can I -- he wants more evidence. Let me play the 911 call. Do we have that in this case, too, the 911 call of him running around beforehand?
No one. OK, I beg your pardon. Wait, that`s for a different issue, we`re going to play that later.
But ...
SEDAGHATFAR: But it ...
PINSKY: ... my -- Sergeant Nelson, my question to you is, I think this guy has mental health issues, the suspect`s mother says he does. If it`s, you
know, of what I`m seeing here, probably his previous felonies were related to drug offenses. And he`s, God knows, what kind of mental illness he has.
Can we do a better job with the mentally ill law enforcements, mostly what you`re dealing with these days?
NELSON: Well, we`re dealing with a lot of different things and we do try very hard to deal with that. But, you know, just because someone`s
mentally ill doesn`t mean that they`re not dangerous. So you do have to take that into consideration.
I mean, Mr. Petrov did have a gun on him that night, not on his purse but in his car. So he`s not, you know, he`s not just a person that`s going
around begging for money that`s completely harmless.
PINSKY: I agree. But Karamo, you`re saying no.
BROWN: Yeah, it`s just excuse after excuse. Just own up that these cops need to be trained better and that this is inappropriate. Don`t justify it
that just because it was 20 seconds that this may not be wrong. This is horribly wrong. This is disgustingly wrong.
And like you said, Dr. Drew, mental health is a big issue and this police need to start stepping up and saying, "Hey, how we approach ...
PINSKY: It`s so funny.
BROWN: ... is different.
PINSKY: It`s funny. On this program, our audience reacts two ways. One is, when I talk about mental illness as a cause for horrible behavior, they
-- you`re making an excuse. When cops overreact or react with intensity to someone with mental illness, our viewers are outraged that the cops would
do that.
You -- listen, we got to bring in all together and go, look, a lot of -- we have horrible mental illness treatment in this country. The mentally ill
are unmanaged. They`re not getting access to care. They`re ending up on the streets or ending up in the system. And law enforcement is having to
deal with them. Law enforcement rather not deal with them, but they are dealing with them.
And so, Karamo is right. We need to do a much better job of training people, law enforcement, on how to manage it. It`s a different population.
They respond to different, what shall we say, interventions ...
BROWN: Yeah.
PINSKY: ... than a true criminal. Not saying he should be allowed to run around with a gun in his car, not saying he`s not a menace, I`m not saying
he`s not dangerous. But there are more sophisticated ways to approach these things.
Next up, police, in fact, shoot and kill a mentally ill man. Again, we have this just-released body camera video. Why? Look at this. Is this
another case of what we`ve been discussing here? Get into it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This Fresno police body cam video shows police pulling over and demanding that Freddy Centeno hit the ground, but then,
immediately opened fire. The 40-year-old mentally disabled man is hit seven times and died in the hospital 23 days later.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is, you know, a bad shooting. It`s an atrocity.
He tell him, "Get on the ground." He didn`t have a chance to get on the ground. You could count the time from when they stopped the car. Just on
real time, one second before they began to fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But to Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer, the video shows the officers were more than justified. He says the video shows Centeno
reached for a black spray nozzle in his pocket which looks just like a gun.
JERRY DYER, FRESNO POLICE CHIEF: There it comes right there which clearly appears to be a handgun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The man`s family suing Fresno police department over this death. The man was unarmed, mentally ill.
Back with Robin, Anahita, Karamo and Evy.
Evy, I see that picture. I want to be sympathetic that they saw that, you know, whatever that spray bottle was coming out. But, is the shooting
justified? They didn`t give him a chance to even freeze or get down.
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: Yeah. So I`m going to speak, but Karamo and Anahita, I want to you guys to give me a minute, OK, before you jump
all over me.
So this is the thing. Yes, it is justified if we`re just looking at it from this perspective. They come out of the car. And this is quick. And
that`s one of the issues with these police shootings. They only lasts a couple of seconds, which is a problem. They come out of the car. They
identified themselves. Immediately, his hand goes to his waistband. He pulls something out. It looks from a distance like it could be a gun. He
goes to point it very slightly. And they immediately shoot him.
Because of that, it is justified, yes.
Now, can the family sue? Absolutely. And that happens all the time. And they can. And you know what, in some regard, I think they should.
Could have they handled it maybe a little bit differently? Maybe waited a second or two? Possibly. But this is the thing. You can say they should
have waited, but what if it was a gun? And, I`m saying this to you, Anahita and Karamo, what if it was a gun? And what if you walked out of
that car? It only takes a second to shoot that weapon. And you don`t have to lift it and point it up. I mean, you can shoot it from the hip.
So, I just want you to just keep that in mind before you completely rip me apart right now.
PINSKY: All right, well, before I let these guys do, let me bring in the attorney for Freddy Centeno`s family, Humberto Guizar. Mr. Guizar, thank
you for joining us.
My question is, does the family -- what does the family say to say somebody like Anahita`s unapologist for the police action?
HUMBERTO GUIZAR, FREDDY CENTENO`S FAMILY ATTORNEY: No, well, perhaps, maybe the first shot would be justified. But under the full training,
police officers are required by law to justify every single shot that they fire. And they cannot commando style -- like if we`re in a war, open fire
on a person, even if the person knows (ph) have a gun.
In California, the training tells you that even if someone does have a gun on their hand, you have to give an adequate notice that you`re going to
fire. You just can`t begin firing immediately even if, let`s say, hypothetically, he did have a gun. They had to do something other than
immediately fire in the manner that they did repeatedly. Maybe one shot would have been possibly justified under the law.
But, there -- you know, there are -- they have to say it`s within policy, because they know if they say otherwise, you know, they`re going to get --
you know, it`s going to hurt them in liability -- for liability purposes.
PINSKY: Hang on a second.
GUIZAR: But if you look at ...
PINSKY: Humberto, one second.
GUIZAR: I`m sorry.
PINSKY: Robin, you have -- Robin.
SAX: The problem is that there`s a difference between policy, police procedure what may be in some cops handbook versus what is the law.
And this was a justified shooting, based on the fact that they had. Was it a good shooting at the end? Should it have been multiple shootings? No,
but I agree when you come out and cops are there and they think that`s -- there`s been prior reports of out being in the neighborhood. There`s been
other crimes that he`s been associated with, and then this guy reaches into his hand, into his waistband and picks something up that appears to be a
gun. And then raises it, that allows for justification.
PINSKY: Karamo, what do you say?
BROWN: But we`re talking about someone who is not mentally stable. And so ...
PINSKY: Yeah.
BROWN: ... the fact that ...
PINSKY: Again.
BROWN: ... he tried to reach for something, the cops should have at least shot one time. That was multiple shots. That is someone`s child who`s not
mentally ...
PINSKY: All right, let me ...
BROWN: ... stable and you killed him.
PINSKY: ... let me go to break. Let me go out to break. Well, I want to bring the police chief who says -- who you heard during that testimony
saying this is completely justified.
Also, I`m going to play for you the 911 call, that may change your feelings about all of this, you`ll hear it after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Mentally old man died 23 days after his 10-second encounter with police officers who shot him. Family now suing. Now, there`s a 911 caller
early in the day, and this may change how you feel about this situation. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CALL)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi, I want to report a man that just came up to my door. He`s walking around shirtless with a lot of tattoos, and he came
up to my door and said he was a federal agent and he pulled out a gun. And I just slammed the door because it`s just me and my kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, well, hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, "You guys better not be selling drugs."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember what the weapon looked like? What color the gun was, or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was black. It was black. It was a little one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Small like a handgun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. He just pulled it out and he said, "Look."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he appear to have mental issues, or?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know, he -- maybe, he might have been on drugs, I don`t know, though.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. It looks like we are out with him now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer is here with us.
Chief, thank you for joining us. And, you say the shooting was in fact completely justified?
DYER: I believe the shooting, based on the circumstances, was within policy. And, we gauge that on a number of things, but it`s a totality of
circumstances.
And I`m glad you played a portion of that 911 tape, because that is exactly the information relayed to the officers in the field, which created their
state of mind as they approach this individual. Their mindset was an individual that had come up to a house, pointed a gun at a female and they
were on scene in less than three minutes and encountered this individual.
And she actually told the dispatcher that he placed that black handgun in the right front short pocket, which is exactly where he reached into and
pulled out of when the officers fired.
PINSKY: Karamo.
BROWN: So I have a question for the chief. Chief, can you please tell me why when the gentleman turned his back did the police officers continue to
shoot him?
DYER: If you look at the video in slow motion, you will see that did not occur, which I`ve watched that video a minimum of 25 times in my office.
And you can tell exactly when the last round was fired, in fact, in slow motion, it will actually show the shell casing being ejected.
So, in real time, it`s difficult to say, but if you freeze frame it and look at it, you have a better picture.
PINSKY: Anahita, do you have a question?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I`m just wondering, even if the officers thought that he had a gun, even though that was on the dispatch, does that still give
them a right to shoot seven times? How about shooting the leg, shooting in a less intrusive way? They shot to kill. It was overkill, in my opinion.
DYER: Well, the -- each of the officers fired five times and you can see that it happened simultaneously. The officers fired in rapid succession.
And when you come upon an incident like that, you believe somebody has a firearm. You don`t know their mental state in terms of what their intent
is. The first thing you`re thinking of is, "How can I immediately stop this threat?"
PINSKY: And Evy, you`ve taught me that it`s not about stopping, it`s about neutralizing, is that -- is this another one of those situations we have to
school us on this? It`s hard for a layperson to understand that. But go ahead.
POUMPOURAS: No, yeah, you shoot to stop, you never shoot to kill. And, you know, in a couple of things, you know, just to kind of clear up,
mentally -- you know, we keep bringing up the topic of, "Oh, he was mentally ill." But I just want to point out a couple of things, the 2007
Virginia tech shooter was mentally ill.
PINSKY: Yeah.
POUMPOURAS: The Colorado shooter was mentally ill. So ...
PINSKY: Yeah.
POUMPOURAS: ... we cannot use mental illness as a scapegoat, "Oh, he`s mentally ill." There`s no way to know that, and even so, it does not mean
that that person is violent.
OK. The other thing, guys, when you`re in the field and you shoot, sometimes you don`t realize how many rounds you are putting out. Their
adrenaline is running, they`re also afraid. And you shoot to stop, you don`t shoot to kill. But, you may shoot multiple rounds and not realize
you actually shot that many rounds.
The other thing, Anahita, you brought up the legs, and the arms, shoot them in the knees. They do not train you to do that. You never shoot for the
extremities, you always shoot for center mass, because that`s where you stop the person. You try to shoot an arm, and I`ll show you my arm, small
one like this, you`re going to miss my arm and you`re going to hit the little old lady behind me. You never do that.
PINSKY: Chief, well, we`re out of time. But Chief, I appreciate you joining us here, and still it`s a disturbing video, and I`m certain it is
for you all there as well.
Thank you, panel. Good job.
DVR this program, then you can watch us any time. I still think that we can do a better job with law enforcement and mental illness since they are
so deeply invested -- involved with that these days. Or we just do a better job with our mental illness delivery system. That`d be ideal.
Karamo is nodding his head.
Yeah, thank you for watching, everybody. Nancy Grace is next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news tonight ...
END
