Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Cop Found Not Guilty in Wife`s Murder; Ex-Millionaire on Trial for Murder Again; Triple Murder Result of Neighbors Dispute?
Aired March 31, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, "DR. DREW": Tonight breaking news. A verdict in the case of a corrections officer accused of having killed his wife, murdering
his wife. Police say he shot her in the head. The jury, though, sided with him.
Plus, did a simmering dispute -- you`ve got to see this -- between neighbors lead to a shotgun triple murder? We have the desperate 911 call.
It`s unbelievable. You have to hear it.
Let`s get started.
Tom Fallis, the former corrections officer, accused of murdering his wife found not guilty of the crime late today. Did not take long for the jury to
reach its verdict. Only four hours. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s either a homicide or a suicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ashley Fallis did commit side.
PINSKY: Tom Fallis on trial for the murder of his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He claims Ashley grabbed a gun from the closet and shot herself.
TOM FALLIS: I didn`t want her to go get high. I didn`t want her to go smoke weed. I heard the freaking gun thing. I`m like what are you doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That wound on the back of her head isn`t where she could do it herself, tom. It is not --
FALLIS: Oh, (BLEEP).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is not.
FALLIS: (BLEEP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is not.
FALLIS: (BLEEP), (BLEEP), (BLEEP), (BLEEP).
NICK GLOVER: He proceed to say, "I shot my wife."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had an extramarital affair with Ashley Fallis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, the Jury, find the defendant, Thomas Fallis, not guilty of murder in the second degree, and all lesser included offenses.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me to discuss, Samantha Schacher, from Pop Trigger, on HULU. Sierra Elizabeth, Attorney, Kurt Schlichter, Attorney, and author of
Conservative Insurgency. I also have Pat LaLama, Managing Editor, Crime Watch Daily. She is joining us from their newsroom.
Pat, are you surprised by this verdict?
PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: You know, I have to say I really am surprised, because I personally think there was lots of damning
evidence. What`s really stunning to me is 12 days of really intensive, intensive testimony. But this jury took less than four hours. And keep in
mind they had some other options. They could have determined that it was manslaughter. They could have determined it was negligent homicide. This
tells me that right from the get-go, they just weren`t buying that he was guilty.
PINSKY: And, Pat, yesterday the bombshell was the finding of that extramarital affair. Do you think that played to his advantage by creating
sympathy, or did it create a motive?
LALAMA: There are so many other surrounding circumstances. When you look at the investigation, it was sloppy at the very least, corrupt at the
worst. I`m not really certain. Possibly, but that also could play to the fact that she -- when you say, play to his sympathy, yes, because she was
depressed, they claim, she was suicidal, she was unhappy, she had had a miscarriage. All kinds of horrific things going on in her life, and yes,
going out and having an affair, she was just one unhappy woman. So yes, it could have.
PINSKY: Thank you for that update, Pat. Now, the two sides left nothing back in their closing arguments, I want to play a little bit for you. Take
a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did not take Ashley Fallis`s gun and hold it to her head and kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is in a rage. He`s in a rage. "She doesn`t need to (bleep) smoke weed. She is an idiot," he tells her aunt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, what`s happening in the bedroom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "(BLEEP) you, and your (BLEEP) mom."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no signs of a struggle. She has been diagnosed with depression, with anxiety, bipolar.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has she struggled at points in her past? Sure. Have other people? Absolutely. Does that mean she committed suicide? No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was desperate to end her life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Kurt, Pat says the investigation was sloppy. Do you agree?
KURT SCHLICHTER, ATTORNEY: I do. But I think this is a case that shouldn`t have been brought at all. The jury takes four hours to come back with a
"no" verdict, a not guilty verdict after 12 days of trial. Where is there evidence, where is the damning evidence that`s going to send this guy away
to either the gas chamber, or jail for the rest of his life?
PINSKY: Samantha all along has said the guy is guilty.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST, "POP TRIGGER": Here`s the thing. Listen, I understand that this jury did see there was some doubt, so I understand why
they couldn`t convict him. However, if I was one of those family members I would be disappointed, I would be pissed, I would be out for blood.
Now listen, this family does believe that he did it. If I ever ended up dead, I guarantee you, my family would never question my husband. And,
speaking of evidence, there`s been two independent witnesses -- two -- That did not know each other, completely random -- that both overheard a
confession. Then you also have their daughter, their own daughter said, "I saw Daddy getting the gun ready. I saw Daddy shoot Mommy." Then he has
scratches, then he`s texting while his wife is dying in his arms, are you kidding me?
PINSKY: And then, Samantha -- I don`t know, I don`t know --
SCHACHER: That alone there presents enough doubt for me.
PINSKY: Maybe your family wouldn`t question mark, but I don`t know, I might.
SIERRA ELIZABETH, ATTORNEY: Let me tell you why they won this case. One shot. One shot to the head. that is not evidence of somebody committing
murder, that is evidence of a suicide. He said that it was a suicide from the beginning of that 9-1-1 call --
PINSKY: I get you. Two things -- two questions I have. So, one shot means he wasn`t shooting out of passion, right?
ELIZABETH: Right.
PINSKY: And people who are jacked up like that, they often pull the trigger multiple times, you taught me -- Kurt`s been (all that)
ELIZABETH: Of course.
PINSKY: But, hold on, hold on. but so one shot is enough to -- I mean, that`s all you have is -- when you`re committing suicide -- is one shot
ELIZABETH: That`s right.
PINSKY: But, every time we cover stories like this, where a husband is accused of something, it just seems as though he always has done it. Is
that enough to --
ELIZABETH: Wow, if our jury system was based on that, we`d all be guilty.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
SCHLICHTER: thank goodness we have a jury system where 12 Americans, presented with the -- everything the State has, to take this guy`s freedom,
and maybe his life, and they have the courage to stand up and say, "you didn`t meet the standard beyond a reasonable doubt." Thank God. I am proud
I defended this country.
SCHACHER: Who`s sticking up for the victim, though? And, here`s the thing, Dr. Drew, you brought up the fact that maybe if he was enraged there
would have been multiple gunshot wounds, right? What if he pre-planned this? What if he thought, "ok." Because, they have a tumultuous
relationship. I think that suicide note, I think that represents that she was trying to get attention from him. Because, she --
PINSKY: No, no.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, she made up a fake e-mail account pretending to be her lover to try to get attention from him there. I think he knew he had the --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, whoa.
SCHACHER: Yes!
PINSKY: I didn`t know about that.
SCHLICHTER: Nutty, that`s nutty. Listen --
SCHACHER: Really quickly, though. I really do believe that he saw that suicide note and thought, "Ah, this is my alibi. This is the perfect
opportunity for me to present that she committed suicide."
PINSKY: All I know is if mark ends up dead, Sam, I`m going to worry about you.
SCHACHER: Oh!
PINSKY: I want to show you something. The defense, they had a really great defense. They tore apart -- when a defense team knows more than a clinician
that`s what always gets my attention. That means they really did their homework. Here is Ashley`s psychiatrist on the stand getting pretty well
taken to task by the defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. RUSSELL JOHNSON, PSYCHIATRIST: She denied being suicidal, she denied ever attempting suicide, she denied thinking about suicide. And she denied
having any self-injurious behaviors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know, sitting here, that she actually had access to hundreds of pills?
JOHNSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you don`t know that she suffered a miscarriage?
JOHNSON: I did not know that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The day of her death?
JOHNSON: No, I did not know that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People at the hospital saw Ashley as a threat to them -- that she left -- the hospital that she got fired from.
JOHNSON: I learned that after this all happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Pat, for me, that interrogation, or cross examination, for me, was where this thing went off the rail for the prosecution. Because, there was
so much profound evidence of psychiatric pathology there that even she was hiding from her own psychiatrist.
LALAMA: You make a very good point. But I keep going back to what I think is a great motive. There is evidence. There was DNA under her fingernails
that belonged to him. There were scratch marks on his chest. There was a whole lot of blood on his shirt. There were ear witnesses, people who heard
him confess. Why are we not paying attention to this? Why I`m the only one who sees this as really, really troubling?
SCHLICHTER: Wow, hearsay evidence of confessions. No wonder the jury didn`t listen to it. I`ve got to give my compliments to the defense there.
That was a great cross examination. This guy comes up and he`s got an agenda. And, he doesn`t just answer the question, he makes a speech. And,
the defense cuts him to ribbons. Thank God we have a system where you can defend yourself by cross examining the state`s witnesses and win an
acquittal where it`s deserved.
PINSKY: Now, to Pat`s point, I`m going to give you -- after the break -- I`m going to bring you some commentary from a woman that knew this man,
that knew the defendant very well. It`s the mother of the previous wife. And, she is a therapist herself. And, she brought up some very relevant
issues that actually shook me to my core, a bit.
Later, warning signs -- speaking of being shaken to your core -- why were three members of the same family savagely shot dead by a neighbor with a
shotgun? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FALLIS: My wife just shot herself in the head. Please help me! Please help me!
Standing here, sitting here, walking back and forth in this little four by four cell, I didn`t shoot my wife. I did not pull a trigger!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, the jury, find the defendant, Thomas Fallis, not guilty of murder in the second degree, and all lesser included offenses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is the breaking news. Tom Fallis found not guilty, just hours ago, of murdering his wife. He had insisted this was a suicide and the jury
believed him.
Back with Sam, Sierra, Kurt, and Pat. Now, I mentioned before the break, one of our producers spoke to Ashley`s ex-mother-in-law, so the victim`s
ex-mother-in-law, from her previous marriage. She is the grandmother to two of Ashley`s children. She herself, also a licensed family therapist. And
she had some disturbing observations. She saw him being very controlling, alienated Ashley from her family, prone to anger. She thought he was,
well, potentially violent.
Now, we don`t know if any of these things were factual. She says herself, no way did Ashley kill herself. That as a clinician, that was her
impression. But, that she did see this sort of, what we call, "domestic abuse." Sort of evident -- I don`t know that`s what was going on -- but
there was evidence of that. Now, Ashley`s mother took the stand. She spoke about an interaction she had had with tom, just hours before Ashley died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNA FOX: And, there was a lot of the f- word going around. Tom was saying (bleep) this, and using it as a -- very loud, booming word. And, so
at some point I just went up to him and I said, "can you kind of cool it with the f-word?" And, he blew up at me. And he said -- I said, "there`s
kids in the house." And, he said, "I don`t care about those (bleep) kids. Those (bleep) kids wake me up at 5:00 every (bleep) morning. I can say it
if I want to." And so, I said, "you`re the adult and they`re the children." And I walked away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Pat, I think it`s this sort of behavior that really ended this guy in court. None of this makes him a murder, but it all makes it kind of
troubling that somebody died right in front of him.
LALAMA: well, yes. And, let me just say one other thing; I know you can`t convict on someone`s demeanor. But, when you look at the interrogation
tape, "me thinks thou doth protest too much." He is -- there doesn`t seem to be any agony in him, or -- I know everybody grieves differently -- but,
he is banging on the table and he is telling that interrogator, the detective, he`s just you know, "b.s., b.s." He`s mad, he just didn`t seem
like a guy who was distraught over his wife`s suicide. Again, I know that`s not enough. But when you put it all together I think he was ripe for
killing this woman at that moment.
PINSKY: Sierra says no.
ELIZABETH: It`s not enough. If you want to look at this demeanor, the diminit (ph), if you --
LALAMA: I know it`s not enough but put it all together --
ELIZABETH: excuse me -- if you want to listen to the demeanor of the diminit (ph), look at that 9-1-1 tape. Listen to that 9-1-1 tape, and see
how distraught he was in that moment, as opposed to in trial when he`s in court.
LALAME: Fake.
PINSKY: All right.
LALAME: It sounded fake to me.
PINSKY: All right, hang on, Pat. Question from the audience. Yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to say that, in our society it seems like we`re allowing too many neurological disorders and anger to be excuses
for things that happened. And, the only thing we have is to look at the patterns. Even if we don`t want to say that.
PINSKY: Right, well -- but you don`t get to cut it both ways. The patterns are what tell us that`s something wrong with this thing, this instrument
I`m holding up here. And this thing is an explanation for why We see the behaviors we do. It doesn`t excuse the behaviors, it`s up to these two --
guy, and their system -- to come to terms to create the consequences, so if there is something wrong with this, you`re less likely to act out. Or if
you do, there is something called justice in response to that.
SCHACHER: I just don`t think justice was brought here. And, I get it. If I was a member of the jury, I too would have had to have found him not
guilty. Because, the defense did a great job presenting doubt. However, I still would have gone home being like, "ooh. I still feel like he did
this." Considering all the evidence out there --
PINSKY: Reasonable doubt. That`s all you have to prove. Kurt?
SCHLICHTER: That`s absolutely true. Statistically he probably pulled the trigger on her.
SCHACHER: Yikes!
PINSKY: No.
SCHLICHTER: Probably.
PINSKY: No, no. I disagree. No.
SCHACHER: Yikes.
PINSKY: No.
SCHLICHTER: But that`s not enough.
PINSKY: What?
SCHLICHTER: That`s not enough to convict someone in our system. .
SCHACHER: I Can`t believe you threw out the, I can`t believe you`re throwing out the hearsay testimony. Do you know that?
SCHLICHTER: I think some of the testimony against him was terrible.
SCHACHER: Well --
SCHICHTER: I think the presentation of the case against him was very weak. I think that psychiatrist set him free.
SCHACHER: No, you talking about the witnesses, the two witnesses that overheard --
SCHICHTER: I don`t buy third party confessions --
SCHACHER: What was their motive to try to smear his reputation? When they were cross-examined, neither of them have any beef with him --
SCHICHTER: There`s a potential plethora of motive --
SCHACHER: Why? Why would two separate people, one being an officer, say - -
SCHICHTER: Hearsay is inherently unreliable.
ELIZABETH: You`re both partially right, and both wrong.
SCHACHER: And the daughter? Why would the daughter --
PINSKY: Sierra, please don`t, Sierra, Sierra, please.
ELIZABETH: Listen, of course our system makes you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone is guilty. But in this case he didn`t pull
the trigger at all and that is valid as well.
SCHACHER: Do you know that? Were you there?
ELIZABETH: I wasn`t. Were you?
PINSKY: Hold it.
SCHICHTER: I was.
PINSKY: Question from the audience.
ELIZABETH: You were!
PINSKY: Hold it. Ma`am, yes, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m curious. Was there any forensic evidence at the crime scene that could indicate if it was a self-inflicted wound?
PINSKY: Well, she had gunshot powder, or, what do you call it?
SCHICHTER: Residue.
PINSKY: Residue on her hand. He had nothing on his. But they didn`t go through the usual procedure to protect his hand. Kurt, you`re throwing your
hands up --
SCHICHTER: Well, I mean --
PINSKY: So it`s a little bit conflictive, but she definitely had it on her hand.
SCHICHTER: Well, I mean, if she had it on her hand, that`s consistent with her shooting. Also no sign of a struggle. I don`t think if I was going to
walk up with a pistol and put it to someone`s head, she wouldn`t say, "excuse me, please don`t do that." I think she`d probably say --
SCHACHER: She had scratches down her neck, and down his -- he had scratches on his neck, down his --.
PINSKY: Well, there was some indication that there was not a huge struggle.
SCHACHER: Well, there was bloody scratches on him. And, I know he said it`s because he had an itchy chest. But, when you itch yourself --
PINSKY: Maybe he was itchy.
SCHACHER: To the point where you draw blood? Come on, Kurt, let`s use common sense here.
PINSKY: He`s very itchy, and there was a terribly -- listen, and, although pat thinks he`s acting, let`s look at their emotional interrogation, when
tom describes holding his wife`s head, after she had been shot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FALLIS: And, my oldest daughter went to come back in, and I was like, "no, just leave. Just go call 9-1-1 and tell them to just come here quick." I
said, "open up the front door so they can get in."
I was holding her and she was breathing. And, I was looking in her green eyes and I was saying, "don`t leave." And then they came and they were
like, "ok, we can take over." I was like, "no, she`s got a gunshot to the head. I`m holding her wounds right now."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The jury has the final say. But you at home decide whether you think that is acting or not. The case is closed. I believe him. Some of you
-- Sam does not, she`s giving me the stink eye.
All right, listen. A one-time millionaire goes on trial for the fourth time in the murder of his wife. These murdering husbands. Why so many
times? We get into it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Michelle Harris vanished from her upstate New York home in September, 2001. She and her millionaire husband,
Calvin were divorcing. Prosecutors charged Calvin with murder, even though Michelle`s body was never found. Neither was a murder weapon.
But they did have blood evidence and witness accounts that Calvin had threatened her. And, he was found guilty. That verdict didn`t stick. He was
tried two more times, but prosecutors failed to keep him behind bars. Now, 15 years after Michelle`s death, Calvin faces a fourth trial. His attorneys
say another man killed Michelle, and burned her body. They say new evidence, charred items found in a burn pit will prove Calvin is innocent.
PINSKY: You heard it right, Calvin Harris in court for murder, for the fourth time. His third trial ended in a hung jury. So, this time he chose
to have a judge decide if he`s guilty or not. Just a judge, no jury
Back with Sam, Sierra, and Kurt. And Sam, there`s new evidence?
SCHACHER: There is new evidence. So, the burn pit was on the property that was once owned by an ex-boyfriend of Michelle`s.
PINSKY: Hang on a second, so, that to me is weird.
SCHACHER: Right?
PINSKY: So, it`s a neighbor that`s an ex-boyfriend.
SCHACHER: Yes, 100 percent.
PINSKY: A little, kind of, what the hell?
SCHACHER: I don`t know. Here`s more details. You can read between the lines, dr. Drew, because I see the wheels turning in your head.
PINSKY: All right.
SCHACHER: The defense claim that Michelle and this guy were seen together -- this same one that owns the property with the burn pit -- they were seen
together the day she disappeared -- pretty damning. The burn pit contained a bra strap, and some charred fabric that reportedly matched the colors of
what Michelle was wearing that day. But, the judge hasn`t decided whether or not he`s going to allow this in, as evidence.
PINSKY: And, no DNA with that, right? Because that was all burned off.
SCHACHER: Not that I know of, but I believe there`s a blade in there. So, that could have been a weapon.
PINSKY: A blade?
SCHACHER: A blade, yes.
PINSKY: And, Kurt, this business of having a judge adjudicate over a murder trial, is that scary?
SCHICHTER: It would be scary to me if I was the accused.
PINSKY: Why?
SCHICHTER: He`s already hung one jury. The jury would do it again.
PINSKY: Everyone complains how capricious juries are. Sierra, why not get a judge in there?
ELIZABETH: Yes, I don`t think so. You want a jury for most cases.
PINSKY: Why?
ELIZABETH: Listen, if the facts are all on your side, you want a judge. The judge is going to be neutral, they`re going to look at all the facts.
And, they are not going to be persuaded by a group of11 other people
telling you something that you may not believe in.
This is a tough case, it really is. Because, I look at it and I`m like, "ok, there`s a little bit of evidence. They found a little bit of her blood
in the kitchen, a little bit of her blood in the garage. But then, those are likely places to cut yourself, and it was small traces and they can`t
determine what the age of that blood is." And then, you have two different, conflicting testimonies, where you have some people describe
their divorce as amicable, and then other people describe it as very bitter --
PINSKY: Now, today --
SCHACHER: So it`s tough to --
PINSKY: Earlier today in the opening -- and, your point is well-taken, Sam, I`m sorry -- in the opening statement today, prosecutors said there was
some domestic violence, that Michelle`s brother had a similar theory. He told -- he talked to CBS. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...Was that she was worried about Cal Harris. That`s the one person she ever mentioned or talked about being afraid of, was Cal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, his defense claims Michelle, the wife, or ex-wife, was a partier, dating other men -- neighbor, I guess, amongst them, whatever.
They`re trying to pin the murder on one of these guys. Now, sierra, what
is this with the judge trying to decide whether or not to let the evidence even in? I mean, there`s a lot of stuff it sounds like he`s keeping out.
ELIZABETH: yes.
PINSKY: Why?
Elizabeth: And, let me tell you why. This evidence that was newly found is very skeptical. And, let me tell you; this evidence was found close to
the harris`s residence, right? And, this evidence was found in the ex- boyfriend`s home. You don`t think that evidence would have been looked for back 14 years ago, or 12 years, ago when the first trial took place? Of
course. He has the best defense team money can buy. They were going to look at the ex-boyfriend`s house. The fact this evidence is just newly found
smells wrong.
PINSKY: Think they planted it?
ELIZABETH: I don`t know, Drew.
SCHACHER: Really?
SCHICHTER: Look, forensic evidence is huge right now because everybody watches csi --
PINSKY: No, they watch Forensic Files. How dare you, Kurt? How dare you? They watch forensic files.
SCHICHTER: I stand corrected. But you saw our audience member coming down. Was there any forensic evidence? That`s why I wouldn`t have a judge do it.
Because the forensic evidence may not lead where it wants to go, like sierra said. But, if that gets in, that`s powerful evidence a jury could
use to finally get a resolution for this.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sierra, please.
ELIZABETH: He`s guilty.
PINSKY: Oh, ok. Good thing you`re not judge.
SCHICHTER: wow.
PINSKY: Why, because the husband again?
ELIZABETH: No, well, no.
SCHACHER: He wanted it so.
ELIZABETH: Let`s talk about it. This is the fourth trial. Trial one, nobody, and no murder weapon and they get a guilty verdict. Trial two, no
body, no murder weapon, they get a guilty verdict.
PINSKY: Now, why do they keep coming back from those guilty verdicts? What --
ELIZABETH: Money. He has the best defense that money can buy --
PINSKY: So they dug up something.
ELIZABETH: They found additional, procedural issues to make the case come back.
PINSKY: let`s look at this guy. The guy that we`re watching in all these tapes, the one that sierra says definitely is a murderer. He gets very
emotional in an interview recently with cbs. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been a nightmare. I`ve been ripped away from my kids, three times now. Three times now I`ve had to sit in a jail cell, or a
prison cell, and wait for a judge or judges to overturn this thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: is it another actor, kurt, or is this the real deal? Again, maybe I`m naive, I kind of believe that.
SCHICHTER: He`s gone through 15 years of hell.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHICHTER: He`s had the State come after him four times. It isn`t double jeopardy because he wasn`t acquitted and retried. The state can do this. I
don`t know, four times may be a little excessive. If the judge, for some reason, gets overturned here, I`m thinking they probably ought to let it
go.
PINSKY: I just had a little moment here. And, Sierra looked at me like, "I don`t care how many times, I still think -- right? Isn`t that what`s
going through your head?
ELIZABETH: You know me! Yes.
PINSKY: Let`s hear from the audience, yes ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I`d just like to go back to the moment where Sierra was kind of joking that, maybe it was a possible, like, plant of
this new evidence.
PINSKY: I don`t think she was joking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I -- well, I know. It`s a making a murderer type stuff going on right now. But I was just wondering has there been any
forensic testing yet on this new evidence to create kind of a timeline to see how old it is, or things like that?
PINSKY: Great question. I`m certain -- I`m certain, Sierra, they must have done something.
SIERRA: Yes, well, they`ll have to. And that`s what the judge is going to be evaluating when he determines whether this evidence is going to be
admissible or not. And that`s why there`s still that open question.
SAM: But don`t you think it`s fishy that the last person she was seen with is this boyfriend?
SIERRA: According to who?
SAM: According to a number of eye witnesses. That`s actually why the first -- the very first trial ended up like in a mistrial, or why they were
ended -- why they were able to have another trial. Because the prosecution actually stated that she was dead, when, in fact, there were some eye
witnesses that actually she wasn`t dead at that time frame that you guys --
PINSKY: We saw her.
SAM: -- are saying. We`ve seen her the next day with this man.
SIERRA: But that`s the same ex-boyfriend where this new evidence --
PINSKY: Yes.
SIERRA: -- was found, right?
PINSKY: Correct. Correct.
SAM: Right.
SIERRA: OK.
SAM: But there`s multiple people.
PINSKY: Yes.
SAM: And the own children -- the children were there.
PINSKY: Here are the daughter`s couple -- the couple`s daughter. She came forward to defend her dad. Again, this is just -- I want you to play this
all for all so you see maybe are you sympathetic for this guy? Or are you like Sierra and you want the hatchet out?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNA HARRIS, DAUGHTER OF CALVIN HARRIS: We need to know what really happened to our mother. We know our dad had nothing to do with her
disappearance. We also know there are people out there with information who can help us get answers. We want to keep our family together and not
lose our father again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: The four children recently said they had never been asked if he killed her, their mother. Right? In other words, no one ever asked them
for their opinion or testimony. Is that customary? Or did it muddy the waters?
KURT: Oh, that seems a little bizarre to me. You`d certainly ask the children. Now, we had kid evidence in the previous case.
You know, children are not the most reliable witnesses. You get four of them, and they`re all saying, no, no, no, daddy was here, and then mommy
went out the door with her boyfriend. That would be pretty compelling for innocence.
PINSKY: And look, they look like pretty together kids. Apparently the family was very healthy and happy together for a long time, and then things
unraveled. I -- that`s just not --
SIERRA: Who wants to believe their father killed their mother? Who wants to believe that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If my dad killed my mom, I`m sorry. I would want him behind bars. If my dad killed my mom --
PINSKY: But would you believe -- but would you believe it is what she asked. Would you -- if you -- if you -- if the evidence was not -- if you
didn`t see it happen, there was evidence of somebody else involved, you wouldn`t want to believe it.
Sierra would believe it, if anybody I think. That`s what I`m learning about Sierra.
KURT: Sierra just assumes it.
PINSKY: All right, listen. We`re going to go on to something that is just an unbelievable case. It`s an unbelievable story. It`s a mom, a dad, a
grandma shot by shotgun, dead allegedly by a neighbor, a neighbor with whom they were close, had a close relationship with. One of these women who is
dead had a relationship with his wife.
What led -- how did -- how did these community members get to the point where they want to kill each other? We`re going to get into all that after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CALLER: He came in with a shotgun. Busted in the door, and he shot everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say Sander shot and killed his neighbors in their Wake County home.
CALLER: My parents have been shot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandy Mazzella and his 43-year-old wife Stephanie were killed, along with Mazzella`s 76-year-old mother Elaine. Sanders
threatened to put them in a box. Those words were apparently not enough to keep the no contact order in place. It was lifted the day before the
shooting.
DISPATCHER: Is anybody awake or breathing?
CALLER: No. They got shotgunned. They`re done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. The Wake County sheriff`s office altered the voices of those 911 callers to protect their identities. They are calling,
in this case, about a dispute between neighbors that boiled over, and now three family members are dead.
I`m back with Sam, Sierra and Kurt.
The day before the murders, this is the part that kills me. Whenever professionals get involved in a situation and let the public down, I don`t
care if they`re mental health professionals, physicians or law enforcement professionals, this was a judge. The day before, a judge refused to grant
the family a permanent restraining order against the neighbor who came over with his shotgun and allegedly shot them.
Sierra, how is that possible?
SIERRA: Listen, I`m going to take an unpopular position here. I disagree with you, Drew. Listen, there`s a very big difference between a temporary
restraining order and a permanent restraining order.
The judge issued a temporary restraining order. That allows the court to put a mechanism in place where if there is an emergency, we can stop it and
prevent tragedy.
But then there`s a next stage where you have the -- where the permanent injunction order where the judge has to conduct a hearing and gather
evidence. And in this case, he didn`t have enough evidence to issue that order, because these were long-term friends. OK?
They had a very long-term relationship. They were long-term coworkers. It wasn`t a relationship where they had violence in the past. And so it
didn`t rise to the level of restricting the other man`s individual rights as an American citizen.
PINSKY: Oh, back to that again. That makes me so ill.
SIERRA: It`s true.
PINSKY: When individual rights trump to safety of everybody else, I go out of my mind.
SAM: Because this man was threatening not just once or twice, but over and over again that he was going to come over there and kill this family. And
what`s so heartbreaking about this is hearing that -- did you hear in that 911 call? You hear this 14-year-old daughter. She was there. They have
one other child. The other child was not there.
But she`s there watching her mom die, watching her dad die, watching her grandmother die. I would be -- if I found out -- you know, if I was this
daughter and I witnessed all of this, the one person that I would hold responsible, of course, it would be the murderer but also the judge.
PINSKY: But Kurt --
SAM: I don`t think the judge did enough.
PINSKY: Kurt, did they not give enough evidence to rise to the level of this injunction?
KURT: Well, clearly not. A permanent injunction`s a huge imposition on somebody`s civil rights. And should be grant --
PINSKY: What?
KURT: It is.
PINSKY: Oh, god, this alleged murder. Oh, god, we should never -- how dare we impinge --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: -- on this guy with a shotgun allegedly?
KURT: In hindsight, you are absolutely right. Go forward, you are not right.
And look, here`s the other thing. You have -- think, a no contact order, permanent, intermittent temporary is going to stop this guy?
When I was overseas, I wore Kevlar, not a no contact order. OK?
PINSKY: So the family should be wearing Kevlar?
KURT: It`s not going to solve anything.
PINSKY: Well, listen. It did stop him until he refused to put a permanent (inaudible) in place.
KURT: No, it`s not going to (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And then he stepped on in.
KURT: No, he decided not to go over and cap them until he felt like it.
PINSKY: Well, let me get -- I`ve got somebody who is there locally. She is the editor of the "Wake Forest Weekly." Her name is Clellie Allen.
Clellie, thanks for joining us.
CLELLIE ALLEN, EDITOR, WAKE FOREST WEEKLY (via telephone): Thank you. I`m glad to be here.
PINSKY: The family actually called this man uncle. They were -- and they were in the process, as I understand, of moving to get away from this guy
when this all went down. Is that accurate?
ALLEN: That is correct. That`s what we`re hearing that yes, as early -- I mean as late as January, they`re referring to him as "Uncle John." But
they were in the process of moving, and what we`ve heard is they were going to be moved out April 1st.
PINSKY: And Clellie, can you help us? Can you shed any light on what happened here? How did friends and coworkers -- I`m understanding the wives
owned a business together, as Sierra told us. The two men were coworkers.
ALLEN: Yes.
PINSKY: How did this unravel in a small community like yours to the point where this man is using a shotgun to kill his friends? Or is there nothing
to be told here, and he just became ill? Something happened to him?
ALLEN: You know, we really don`t know. There -- it seems like in the last three months, they went from "Uncle John" to one family Sander and his
girlfriend Scottie (ph) are suing the Mazzellas for some money, less than $10,000.
You`ve got Sandy Mazzella getting a retraining order against John Sander. You kow, something clearly happened, but we really don`t know what it was.
PINSKY: And no rumor? No -- it`s got to -- it`s a small town, Clellie. You`ve got to know something that we don`t know. Come on now.
ALLEN: I know. I know, and that`s kind of what`s so odd about this case is yes, you would hear things in a small town. But everyone is literally
scratching their heads.
They know there was trouble. There`s, you know, talk of they`ve kind of been yelling at each other over the last few months, you know, just words
exchanged. But I think they were those kind of people anyway, to just, you know, sort be out there emotionally. So it doesn`t -- there doesn`t seem
to be any one thing that all of a sudden just happened to make this horrible situation.
SAM: See, here`s the thing, and I`ll be --
PINSKY: Yes, horrible.
SAM: -- I`ll be speculative with this.
PINSKY: Yes, please.
SAM: Here they were business partners.
PINSKY: Yes.
SAM: They`re also friends. That can be a recipe for a complete disaster.
PINSKY: Sure.
SAM: Your business and their business, this was their livelihood. So when you`re talking about one is trying to take the business from the other, or
one owes $10,000 and the other one`s holding them hostage so to speak with that business, that can bring out the blood.
PINSKY: It -- well, it can bring out --
SAM: It can.
PINSKY: Yes, but not murder. Not --
SAM: Yes, it can.
KURT: Oh, oh, oh --
SAM: Yes, it can.
KURT: I do a lot of --
SAM: I`m a business owner. Yes, it can.
KURT: -- I do a lot of business disputes. I drive a really nice car, because people don`t get along. And the emotions can run really high.
But there`s something beyond that here. This guy, I don`t know whether is sick or just evil --
PINSKY: Right.
KURT: -- but you don`t take a shotgun --
PINSKY: That`s right.
KURT: -- and pump round after round into people, do that kind of gratuitous physical damage to someone without a lot of hate in your heart.
And that`s the question that is really at issue.
PINSKY: That`s exactly what I was asking here is, is this hatred, evil or did something -- he has a frontal brain tumor or something we can`t really
-- you know, sort of one of those events?
Yes, we have a question from the audience. Yes, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it sounds like from what they said, it was a no contact order was placed earlier. Why weren`t these people separated
sooner?
PINSKY: Well, they were separated. My understanding is they were separated, but now they were asking for a permanent injunction. Right?
And literally -- although you guys make light of this -- the day or the day after the judge refused to make it permanent, he slipped on in and with his
-- allegedly with his shotgun and did his thing.
So -- and these guys are saying unless you`re wearing -- and Kurt, really? We got to put Kevlar on now? Is that what you are suggesting?
KURT: No, look. There are bad people out there who are going to break and do bad, bad things. And no piece of paper, no judge, no cop is going to
stop them.
PINSKY: All right, look.
KURT: And that just happens.
PINSKY: Sierra, finish your thought.
SIERRA: That`s why we can`t have the judge as a scapegoat. Listen, he did terrible things. Was it foreseeable that he was also going to kill his
friend`s wife and anyone else and the mother? So no (inaudible) --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: The answer`s yes.
SIERRA: No, no.
PINSKY: In my profession, we can - we prognosticate. We can -- that`s part of our job is diagnosis, prognosis. And we can -- we can tell the
judge, but maybe they didn`t get the right people in front of the judge. I`m willing to accept that.
Next up, we`ve got more from the 911 call. We`ve got more about this tragedy. Don`t go away. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CALLER: My parents have been shot!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say Sanders shot and killed his neighbors in their Wake County home.
CALLER: He came with a shotgun. Busted in the door, and he shot everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sander threatened to put them in a box. Those words were apparently not enough to keep the no contact order in place. It was
lifted the day before the shooting.
CALLER: My sister and brother-in-law are laying on the floor; mother-in- law --
DISPATCHER: Is anybody awake or breathing?
CALLER: No. They got shotgunned. They`re done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Three family members dead. The man accused of killing them is the guy they used to call "Uncle John."
Back with Sam, Sierra, Kurt. And still on the phone, I have Clellie Allen from "The Wake Forest Weekly."
Clellie, we were -- during the break, all were talking out here about the children. One of the children was in the home when this happened. How are
these children?
ALLEN: Well, what I know right now is that I believe they`re staying with family members locally. They`re having the wake tonight. In fact, right
as we`re talking, there`s a wake going on for them.
The funerals are tomorrow. And then, what I`ve heard is that, I believe, they`ll be traveling back with family members to New Jersey.
PINSKY: Sam, you had a question for Sierra.
SAM: I have a question for Sierra.
PINSKY: Thank you, Clellie. Thank you.
SAM: That`s just chilling thinking that the funeral is tomorrow, and that was actually the day that they were supposed to move away from this
horrendous, murdering neighbor.
But my question to you, if I were to come to you and I would say, listen, I have this person that`s continually threatening to kill me, what would be
enough evidence to get a restraining order from that -- hopefully preventing that person from killing me.
PINSKY: Permanent. Permanent restraint.
SIERRA: Well, every situation is different. But the judge is definitely going to look at the relationship between the parties. And what he`s going
to have to decide is whether there`s a potential for future harm. So it has to be more likely than not, probable, that there`s going to be future
harm.
SAM: So you have to wait, though, until you get harmed? That`s what I feel like.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a -- that`s a common thing in law enforcement.
SAM: Gee.
PINSKY: Right? Let`s go to the audience. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just overall, I just have a comment that regardless of whether or not he did or didn`t shoot them, we can -- if you back at gun
violence in the United States, it`s increased exponentially, wouldn`t you think?
KURT: No, it hasn`t. No, gun violence has decreased to about half. About half the number of people are killed by guns a year as they were 20 years
ago.
PINSKY: Well, we are certainly reporting gun violence more frequently, and it has --
KURT: No, it`s always reported, Drew. You have to report gun violence.
PINSKY: I think it`s the mass murder is what they`re going to talk about. Mass murder has had an increase. In mass murder (inaudible) the people --
(CROSSTALK)
KURT: Right. This isn`t the responsibility of the shotgun. It`s the responsibility of this degenerate creep who went and murdered three
innocent people for no other reason than he was mad.
SAM: Well, maybe this degenerate creep --
PINSKY: Yes, hang on. Yes, sir.
SAM: -- shouldn`t have had a gun.
PINSKY: Wait. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have this stuff saying about guns and all that. You just see the problem here. It`s mental illness. Mental illness is being
ignored. I don`t care what anybody says. It`s being ignored.
I`ve seen so many friends snap. All right?
SIERRA: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to stand-up and say enough about the guns. It`s mental illness, all right? There are people out there that need help.
PINSKY: But to be fair -- to be fair, it`s not mental illness. It`s access to proper care. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but --
PINSKY: Because mental illness is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
PINSKY: We all have this thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need more help. There are people out there that need help, and it`s just being ignored.
PINSKY: It`s not being ignored.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s being ignored.
PINSKY: It`s not being ignored.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I keep on hearing the government say, oh, you know what, we`re going to help.
PINSKY: Listen, my friend --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to help out. I don`t see that.
PINSKY: I got you. I got -- you are singing to the choir here. But it`s really -- it`s not just access, it`s adequate access, too. And what`s
happening is -- thank you, sir. What`s happening is law enforcement and these judges and everybody else is ending up having to take on exactly what
this man is upset about, because that`s wasn`t what law enforcement was supposed to do. Right?
KURT: No, law enforcement --
PINSKY: My profession is supposed to do that.
KURT: You guys handle the people with mental illness. The police enforce the law. Sometimes there`s some crossover. Unfortunately, the biggest
mental health system we have right now is the jail and prison system.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
SAM: And it was terrible. We need gun reform, too. OK? This guy who got a -- who got a restraining order --
PINSKY: Well --
KURT: No.
SAM: -- against him should not have had a gun in his house.
KURT: He didn`t have a restraining order against him.
SAM: He did. He had a temporary restraining order.
KURT: It expired the day before.
PINSKY: I`ve got to go. Thank you. Thank you for saying those things. Thank you for saying it with such passion, because it -- I`ve been saying
it for a long time. And when he says it, I think it gets through a little better.
I`ve got more audience. I`ve got more panel. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s beyond shock. It`s gruesome. It`s unimaginable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On Friday, (inaudible) found out his family was murdered after what we`ve been told was an ongoing dispute about money with
their neighbor, Jonathan Sander.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sander, you rot in hell, you piece of garbage.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Fights between neighbors, co-workers, business owners together. It ends with shotgun blasts. Now, could this deadly feud have been
prevented? Maybe not the feud, but at least the deadly consequences of the feud.
Back with Sam, Sierra and Kurt. Police were called to the home the morning of the murders, because neighbors heard a loud argument. So the police had
even been there that morning.
The judge had been asked to put a permanent injunction in place. Everybody kind of failed, right? I mean, the -- I know you guys are defending the
system, but it didn`t work. It just didn`t work.
No, Sierra, it worked? Is this OK that this -- that this happened?
SIERRA: You know what? It`s a tragedy, but let`s put the blame where the blame is due, and it`s --
PINSKY: With the perpetrator? The alleged perpetrator?
SAM: That`s such a simple answer though. That`s such a simple answer.
(CROSSTALK)
SAM: But why can`t we do better? Why can`t we somehow make sure that we prevent these things from happening.
KURT: Because to do what you say is doing better is to intrude so much into the lives of regular people. Look, we can`t have the government out
there as permanent referee for every petty dispute between idiots that`s going on out there.
SAM: You`re acting like it`s an epidemic. I don`t think the normal person goes and reports that they`re -- that someone`s showing up to their house
threatening to kill their family, over and over and over again.
(CROSSTALK)
KURT: That happens all the time.
SAM: Really, it does?
KURT: Yes, there are a lot of idiots out there.
SAM: I don`t -- I think you`re --
KURT: A lot of idiots.
SAM: You`re exaggerating a tad there, Kurt.
KURT: And the answer is not a police state.
PINSKY: Now, Sierra, the murder -- the alleged murder`s lawyer says, don`t judge him just yet. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s two sides to every story. And we`re in the process of gathering all the facts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Really? I -- OK. I get the system.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Everyone deserves a defense. I`ve learned that on this show.
SIERRA: Everybody deserves a defense.
PINSKY: All right.
SIERRA: He is entitled to a trial just like everyone else.
PINSKY: So you`re -- he -- you`re not calling him a murder like you did the other guy?
KURT: Oh, I`m calling him a murder.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
KURT: I`m ready to hang the guy.
PINSKY: All right. Please DVR us.
Audience, thank you for being here. Panel, great job.
DVR this show. Then you can watch us anytime. We do appreciate you showing up here. Be a part of our audience. Come on in.
We`ll see you on Facebook right after this. "Nancy Grace" is next.
END
