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Dr. Drew
New Developments On Missing Baby; Milk Carton Mom On Trial; Developing Story Of Timmy Who Vanished In 1991; Caught on Tape: Defendant Shocked With 50,000 Volts In 5 Seconds; Trial Judge Fired After Controversial Shock. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 05, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:00:15] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW (voice-over): Tonight, baby Gabriel, the entire country wondered what had happened to
him. His mom says she gave him away. Do we finally know if he is dead or alive?
And, milk carton murder, a 5-year-old vanishes. His face on grocery store shelves everywhere. Now, a dirty blue blanket has helped put his mother on
trial 25 years later.
Plus, a man is shocked with 50,000 volts for five seconds because the judge wanted him to shut the heck up. Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Baby Gabriel missing for six years. Now, his mom who says, well, she gave him away as this is accustomed. Now, she has been arrested. Take
a look at this, quite a story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOGAN MCQUEARY, FATHER OF GABRIEL: This is about Gabriel and I want to find my son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The boy`s mother, 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson picks up everything and takes her baby on a two-day
journey, travelling from Arizona to San Antonio, Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ELIZABETH JOHNSON, MOTHER OF GABRIEL: You would be surprised what a person is capable of.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Elizabeth Johnson claims she gave her baby away so he could live a better life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Johnson once told the father that she killed the baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I suffocated him and he turned blue. And, I put him in his diaper bag and I put him in the trash can.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Later she told officers, she gave the baby to a couple in a San Antonio Park.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: The child went missing while she was on the run with him and the child could be dead or alive, we do not
know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Murder charges have never been filed because baby Gabriel has never been found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCQUEARY: She just gets to get out of jail. Get out of prison. Do whatever she wants. Gets to live her life and forget about what happened.
This should not happen like that. She should pay more than she did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gabriel`s mother was on probation after having served five years in prison, and tonight she is back behind bars. Tonight, joining me, Yodit
Tewolde, Attorney; Spirit, Psychotherapist; Troy Slaten, Criminal Defense Attorney and Pat Lalama, Managing Editor at Crime Watch Daily. She joins
us from their newsroom. Pat, you have been following this case. Give us an update, please.
PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR OF CRIME WATCH DAILY: Well, you know, keep in mind now, she went to prison for unlawful imprisonment and for custodial
interference. That is all they could get her on back then. And, she asked the judge when she got out, "Can I move to New Mexico. There, I can get a
job and start a new life."
Well, yes, if you do not violate your probation. Well, now, she has violated her probation four or five different ways associating with a
felon, not reporting to the officer, using alcohol. A myriad issues that she has.
So, she is back behind bars. But, you know what, Dr. Drew? This is still a cat and mouse game, and it is so frustrating because we do not know where
that baby is, and she does.
PINSKY: Yes, Pat, mentioning cat and mouse always gets my spidey sense stirred. I know sociopaths always put you through a manipulative cat and
mouse and Criminals the same. So, it really raises everyone`s suspicion. Now, Gabriel`s mother called the father, she told him that she had killed
the baby. We have that reporting, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON (via phone): You made me do this.
MCQUEARY (via phone): You did not hurt Gabriel.
JOHNSON: Yes, I did. I suffocated him (INAUDIBLE) -- I suffocated him and he turned blue. And, I put him in his diaper bag and I put him in the
trash can.
MCQUEARY: I need to go.
JOHNSON: Why to call the police?
MCQUEARY: I need to go.
JOHNSON: Why? You are not going to talk to me about this? You do not care? You do not believe me? You knew I would do it and you pushed me
anyway.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: So disturbing. And, we have another phone call, where Elizabeth tells Gabriel`s father, she threw the baby in a dumpster. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCQUEARY: Where are you and where is Gabriel?
JOHNSON: Gabriel is in the dumpster.
MCQUEARY: No. He is not.
JOHNSON: You want to talk to girls, that is the price you pay. Are you dating one now? (INAUDIBLE)
MCQUEARY: No. I am not dating anybody, Elizabeth. You need to stop this.
JOHNSON: You are having sex with someone.
MCQUEARY: No. I am not.
JOHNSON: Yes. You did.
MCQUEARY: Elizabeth, stop this.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: I did not know where to start with this one. I will start with Spirit, because all I hear here is a manipulative, violent sociopath. That
is what she seemed to be.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You hit it right on the head. And, how disgusting it is, and how, you know -- for that father to have to sit there
and deal with that, with no recourse, Dr. Drew. I mean I see this woman, and I am just like, what help could you possibly give her. And, at the end
of the day, will it do anything to bring this child back or to get real answers as to what has been going on here?
PINSKY: Why Yodit, why just custodial interference? We have the tapes of her confessing. I understand there is a little bit of confusion about what
exactly she did, but is not that enough?
[19:05:06] YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: I mean you had trials where you had no body. And, people have been convicted of murder. So, I do not know why
they did not charge her with something more than she has been convicted for.
PINSKY: Pat, can you help us with that. Let me see, Pat. Pat, help us. It is confusing when you hear all that evidence. And, it is so chilling
the way she goes about it.
LALAMA: Well, I think -- I am not a lawyer just for clarification sake, but a long-time crime journalist. I think there is a clear distinction
between what qualifies as actual kidnapping.
And, I think they just do not have the goods for anything other than she is interfering with the fathers right to see the kid. They just -- believe
me, if they could do more, I bet you they would. They just cannot.
PINSKY: I am going to show you another piece of evidence, which is a text message that Elizabeth sent to Gabriel`s father, you see sitting -- on the
stand there. This is now just hours after she had allegedly given the baby away. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Fine, do not talk to me. (EXPLETIVE WORD) But you will never see Gabriel again. I made sure of that, and you can spend
the rest of your pathetic life wondering about him. You will never find me. I have already boarded a plane out of the country, where I am safe. I
will email you the exact location dead Gabriel`s little blue body."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Troy, I see you sitting there, waiting, flying out of your chair. Is that because you want to defend this woman and dismantle
all that evidence? Or because you believe this is a case that should have been assailed more vigorously?
TROY SLATEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I am a defense attorney. And, you cannot convict somebody just based on their statement alone. She
could come out to police and say, "I killed him." But, there is a rule in the law, it is called corpus delicti rule. And, you cannot convict
somebody just based on their statements alone. There has to be evidence.
PINSKY: Corpus delicti sounds like an appetizer. It really sounds terrible.
SPIRIT: How about appetizer for like involuntary --
SLATEN: But, that is the law whether you like it or not, you cannot convict somebody just on that.
PINSKY: Yodit, please.
TEWOLDE: We are not talking about convictions here. We are talking about taking them to trial. Have they not taken people to trial for less?
SLATEN: Sure. But in order to take someone to trial, the prosecutor has to believe that they are going to get a conviction. You do not just bring
someone to trial and throw the spaghetti against the wall --
PINSKY: All right. But if you were defending this person, this chic, and if somebody were to come up there or an expert and really come after her,
would that undermine your case?
SLATEN: No, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation --
PINSKY: No. There is not.
SLATEN: No, there is.
PINSKY: There is not. That is the point.
SLATEN: She hates this guy.
TEWOLDE: She hates the guy.
SLATEN: She wants to get back at him. She could say anything, "I killed your son."
SPIRIT: So, where is the baby then?
SLATEN: She may have very well given the baby away.
SPIRIT: I would need some type of proof in there.
PINSKY: I would too. And, Spirit and I had this quarrel, as we see it, which we see someone who cannot maintain -- and spite of being a high
profile case, cannot maintain her parole, so she has criminal tendencies.
SLATEN: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Now, you could argue being in prison --
(CROSSTALK)
SLATEN: Those are petty things.
SPIRIT: Dr. Drew --
(CROSSTAK)
SLATEN: Oh, she got married and did not tell them.
SPIRIT: Because she told him that she can get away with it. It is the narcissistic personality, where it says "I am walking on water."
SLATEN: It is just a small little thing.
PINSKY: And to me, the big tell is she hangs with other criminals. She is hanging with people. She is attracted to that. And, the next --
personality then I add in the manipulativeness, the violence, the aggression, the heartlessness, the coldness --
SPIRIT: The sadistic.
PINSKY: The sadistic quality.
SPIRIT: Yes.
PINSKY: Now, you have a case of somebody in my opinion, if we had any evidence of really childhood violence, then I would say that is somebody
who killed --
TEWOLDE: Of course, Troy, you are not being honest here. You know it is a big deal when a defendant does not check in with a parole officer.
SLATEN: Well, yes. But, they are supposed to check in, but that does not mean you are not going to go to jail again for -- you are not going to go
to prison --
TEWOLDE: But it is enough to pull them back into court, right?
SLATEN: It is enough to pull them back into court, but there would really have to be a bigger violation in order to --
PINSKY: Just imagine Troy as parole. He would be on top of everything.
(LAUGHING)
TEWOLDE: You know what? It is interesting they are pulling her back into court, because they are trying to get another bite of this apple, because
people are not satisfied with this whole case here.
SLATEN: I just thought that Arizona would want to spend the money to bring her all the way back from New Mexico on --
PINSKY: All right. All right.
SLATEN: -- because they forgot to call my PI.
PINSKY: I have the attorney who represented baby Gabriel`s mom. He is here with me. We will hear what he has to say about this case. And,
later, a man is shot with 50,000 volts because he would not shut up. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCQUEARY: I think about it every single day, whether he is dead or alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Elizabeth Johnson claims she gave her baby away, so he could live a better life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: These are the last known photos of Gabriel from the San Antonio Hotel room, where the boy may have been drugged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCQUEARY: He did not look like him. He did not look like he was happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. MIKE HORN, TEMPE POLICE DEPARTMENT: It is a very real possibility that Elizabeth killed Gabriel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She can just go and hand her baby to anybody she wants and then just go live her daily life, that nothing ever happened.
She is off running around and going on vacations, doing whatever she wants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She, baby Gabriel`s mom, is now back behind bars tonight. The child last seen six years ago, the mother claims she gave him away to a
couple she met in a park. Those people magically have never been found. Though, neither has baby Gabriel. Back with Yodit, Spirit, Troy and Pat.
And, joining us Steve Moore, Retired FBI Agent. Now, on the phone, I have Marc Victor, Elizabeth`s former defense attorney. Marc, I am going to go
to you first. Have you spoken to Elizabeth since she has been back in jail?
MARC VICTOR, ELIZABETH`S FORMER DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I have, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And, can you just tell me -- one of the things I am trying to get my head around is she knows this got a lot of attention directed at her in
this case. She knows she is on a razors edge for her parole, why cannot she maintain her parole?
VICTOR: Well, you know -- this is basically just a petition to revoke. This is not a finding that she is violating her probation. They are just
mere allegations at the moment. And, look, these are, in my opinion, and I have been practicing 22 years, these are fairly minor allegations.
[19:15:10] They are no term 1 violations, which would be new crimes, but they are, you know, technical violations and if proven it would be a
violation of her probation. I think my concern at this point is I just want her treated the same way anyone else is going to be treated. And, I
can assure you, these types of violations do not generally result in a revocation of probation.
PINSKY: So, she will be back out and back on probation?
VICTOR: My expectation is that when she gets here to Arizona, and she has not arrived to Arizona yet, I will first of assess the evidence that
supports these allegations and determine whether or not that the state can even prove these things.
If they can, then we are going to handle it like any other probation violation matter. And, I expect that she will be reinstated to probation.
And, shortly after that, she will be on her way back home and --
PINSKY: Marc, let me ask you something. When you last spoke with her, what were you speaking about?
VICTOR: Well, obviously, that is attorney/client privilege, but I can tell you generally, we were talking about the various allegations and the
petition of things of that nature.
PINSKY: Exciting stuff. Troy, anything?
(LAUGHING)
SLATEN: Yes.
PINSKY: He is one of yours.
SLATEN: Yes.
PINSKY: You should know Marc, Troy has been defending your client vigorously.
SLATEN: Practicing in Arizona, is it unusual for them to extradite somebody from another state from so far away to spend all that money on
these small technical violations?
VICTOR: Well, you have to remember, this something that is governed by federal law. This is exactly Arizona law, because we are dealing with the
interstate compact. And, so there are federal requirements that have to followed and any time --
PINSKY: OK.
VICTOR: -- under the interstate compact, you have three violations --
PINSKY: All right. We will take your word for that. Marc, here is where we are sort of trying to get our head around. Why will not she tell where
she gave this baby, whom she gave it to, if indeed she give the baby away. It is sort of confusing.
And, then when you hear the horrible -- more than confusing, frankly. But, when you hear these horrible manipulative stories that she tells the dad,
it is hard to be sympathetic, but why will not she give where she sent this baby, if she did indeed?
VICTOR: Well, I think it is a but unsaid to say, why will not she say this or that. She did say that. She gave a full interview to police way back
when she was apprehended. She told them everything she knew at the time, and she does know, and that is all the information she had. After that,
she was arrested, taken into custody, so she was not in a position to get any more information.
PINSKY: Pat, you have something to ask?
LALAMA: No. I just am frustrated by the conversation. I understand what a defense attorney has to do, but she is playing games. And, she knows
that that child was adopted. Exactly, what kind of information she could give to the authorities, so they could track down those people. It is a
cat and mouse.
And, let me just say, I would like to put bamboo shoots down her finger nails. Unfortunately, we cannot do this in our society. But, you want to
know something, I am a big believer in circumstantial cases. The problem is, this is not a strong enough circumstantial case. There really is not
much, I believe that the authorities can do, and it just frustrates the heck out of me.
PINSKY: And, I think that is where Mark and Troy can, you know, feel confident in their defense. Now, I thank you, Marc, I appreciate you
stopping by. I also got Steve Moore here. Steve, are you out there? Do you have any thoughts about this?
STEVE MOORE, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI, RETIRED: Yes. I think that, yes, these things are a little bit ticky-tack, but she is going to be treated just
like anybody else who violates these probations, hiding the location of a baby or a babys body.
PINSKY: And, Steve, you have the same sort of spidey sense problem that we all -- Spirit and I do out here, listening to the manipulation and the
violence --
MOORE: Right.
PINSKY: -- and the coldness and the cunning, and then mishandling a baby, and then going on about her life. I mean it is a profile that is not very
becoming.
MOORE: No, this is not mishandling so much. This is intentional giving away or killing of a child. That is what we are dealing with. And,
frankly, Arizona has not given up on this. The reason, you asked earlier, why did not they charge murder? Because if they charged it then and lost
it, you cannot try her with it again.
They are still holding the murder trial in their pocket. And, this -- you know, it is possibly a little ticky-tack what they are getting her on.
But, you know what? It is true. I mean, they are not going to have trouble proving these things, they bring her back, and now you got a lever
against her to get the real information on the baby`s whereabouts.
PINSKY: If the baby is still alive, I am going to bring you -- in order to bring him home, if you know a child who looks like this, I am going to give
you an age progression of the child.
If you have information, I want you to call the number on the screen. And, Steve, while we are watching that, again, what is your spidey sense tell
you? How likely is this child to be alive and how likely to be found?
[19:20:00] MOORE: Again, I am giving you spidey sense.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes.
MOORE: I am not giving you anything I can prove. But, the fact that she went into such detail to give painful descriptions of what happened makes
me actually believe that she did not kill the child. Because killing the child and letting the body be out there to be found would be much more
painful than these things.
You know what they say, a barking dog does not bite. I think she did give the child away, and I think the baby is alive, and I think there is a
chance Gabriel could be reunited with his dad.
PINSKY: Wow!
SLATEN: There we have it, Dr. Drew. The baby is still alive and --
PINSKY: Well, get her to talk. Get her to talk.
MOORE: Revoke her parole or something.
PINSKY: That is what I am saying. That is what I am was interested in. Yodit, last thoughts.
TEWOLDE: Violations are real minor just like Troy said. So, no one is really going to be violated on not reporting. They are trying to do is get
more information about this kid and hopefully that will happen.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, a mother on trial. Now, in the murder of her little boy. This happened a quarter of a century ago. And, later,
shocking video, I mean, literally shocking, because the man is tasered on the orders of a judge, who in fact lost his job over this whole thing.
And, the guy just would not shut up. So, what are going to do? You have to taser him. Back after this.
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 5-year-old Timmy vanishes, he is last seen at his mother`s side at a carnival. That is the story Michelle Lodzinski
tells in 1991. Now, 25 years later, mom Michelle is on trial for Timmy`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE PROSECUTOR: The evidence will show that it was his mother, the very person who brought him into this world took him out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The cold case got hot last year when Michelle`s niece, Timmy`s babysitter said she recognized the blue blanket
found near the boy`s body 11 months later. She told police she used that blanket when she snuggled up with him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERALD KROVATIN, MICHELLE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You are going to hear from Jennifer Blair that she recognized this blanket supposedly 20 years later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Michelle`s lawyer say the niece cannot be trusted. They claimed she abused drugs and that the two women had
clashed. Prosecutor say Michelle`s words, behavior and the new evidence all proved she killed her son.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Now, the dirty blue blanket is at the center of this case. Timmy in fact was one of the first missing children to appear on a milk carton
way back in 1991. But, since then, Michelle moved to Florida. She had two more children.
Back with Yodit, Spirit, Troy and Pat. The key witness in Michelle`s niece, the one who identified the so-called dirty blue blanket, but these
two, as you heard on that tape had a fairly nefarious relationship. Troy, would that figure into your defense?
SLATEN: Absolutely. I mean, this is a -- first of all, 25-year-old cases are very hard to prove. Memories fade. She was 14 at the time, this
niece, and now she is saying, "Oh, that is the blue blanket." I cannot even remember what I had for dinner last night, Dr. Drew. But, let alone a
blanket that she has not seen for 20, 25 years? And, she happened to be a heroin addict.
PINSKY: Pat, give me more about mom`s history. By the way, I am not sure I want Troy defending me anymore -- But go ahead. What else do we know
about mom?
LALAMA: Well, let me just say one thing. This is what I believe is a circumstantial case and a good one. There is something in the law called
consciousness of guilt.
And, she exhibited that for a long, long time by saying there were four different stories she told about what happened to her poor little son that
night. All kinds of problems.
But, let me got back to your question. She was 23 when the baby, the child went missing. She was a high school dropout. She had an alcoholic parent.
There was divorce in the family.
She has had trouble with the law herself, she faked being kidnapped, get this, by the FBI. She did probation for that. She also stole a computer.
She did probation for that. So, she has -- let us just say slightly nefarious past herself.
PINSKY: All right. So, we got a heroin addict -- is she recovered, do we know, Pat, the niece? Do we have that detail?
LALAMA: She did go to recovery at that time. She left the recovery at some point. Where she stands now in terms of sobriety, I do not know.
PINSKY: All right. I will remind people for opioid addiction, Spirit back me up on this, average it takes six to eight treatments --
SPIRIT: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, just to get one year of sobriety under their belt. All right, continue with sobriety, usually they do pretty well after that.
Now, in 1991 before the son`s body had been found, Michelle said this to the media. Quote, "Everyone is waiting to see a grieving mother on T.V.,
breakdown, crying hysterical, because the public, thrive on that stuff, but I am not going to do it." Spirit, weird, right? Just weird.
SPIRIT: The entire case is weird, Dr. Drew. And, you are never going to see her do that, because she lacks sympathy. And, the idea that she has
been able to move on and have two other children and have no sympathy, no desire to talk about the whereabouts or how this thing has turned out. It
is just a tragedy.
PINSKY: Yodit, are Spirit and I just getting too worked up about the quality of the mothering here that we just see a bad mom, and a bad sort of
a person with lack of empathy?
TEWOLDE: No. I mean when you look at it in an isolated way, it may be too much, but when you take the totality of the circumstances, you look at her
behavior as a former prosecutor, which you want to do is look at people`s behaviors before the offense was committed and after.
You want to see -- you want to hone in on that behavior because you want to see something that may give off after the idea of guilt. And, her not
wanting the report card of her child from the teacher. That was one instance, referring to her kid as he and not saying his name. Not showing
any type of remorse or crying. Now, I get it, some people react to things differently.
PINSKY: And, she said in 1991, back then, again, she did not want a boy. She never wanted to have a boy.
TEWOLDE: Right.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: She sort of said that out loud, which is weird. And, then, it is a clinical term, weird, I am using it over and over again.
And, then she went and started a new life with two sons and now they have knew about Timmy, the deceased kid.
SLATEN: There is no textbook on how somebody is supposed to act when something horrible like this happen.
SPIRIT: Are you kidding me?
SLATEN: So, she is seen all the other women and all of the other parents who go on the media and they cry, and they do these things, and she is
saying, "I am not going to do it." And, it is sounds like, you have convicted her for moving on with her life and for having another family.
SPIRIT: No, no, no, no, no. I did not say that. As a mother of six children, I can totally get that you move on with your life, but the idea
that your new children do not know about your first child, that to me says there is something wrong --
SLATEN: Is she supposed to be grieving and crying every day.
SPIRIT: Again, they did not even know that the child existed.
PINSKY: Pat, do you want to put bamboo shoots down this woman`s fingernails as well? What is the guilt that you are concerned about?
(LAUGHING)
LALAMA: Well, you just put the whole thing together. I mean let us go back to telling the authorities four different stories. Duh! That is one.
And, then when the female investigator from the district attorney`s office sat down with her, because the investigators from the police division
thought that maybe woman to woman might get more out of them, she was even more hostile.
She answered with one word answers and at one point crossed her arms and smirked at the D.A. investigator. And, she said, "Why are you smirking?"
And, she goes, "I am just tired of you asking me questions about things I did not do. Now, get the, you know what, out of here."
And, then she stood up and ran out of the house. So, OK, I know, whoever out there is the defense attorneys saying that is not enough. But, I do
not know, you put it all together, and there is a strong consciousness of guilt.
PINSKY: And, Yodit -- Pat, I get what you are saying. And, Yodit, my question would be even more specific, more pointed, which would be, all
right, so she has a personality disorder or something that makes her hostile and aggressive and un-empathetic, would you take this case?
Would you go after this? Would you go prosecute this one? Just based on the blue blanket too. That is the new thing. The blanket appears and
suddenly there is another case.
TEWOLDE: I think there is a reason to look into the case again. I am not sure if they have a strong case, only because all they have that is new
since 25 years ago is this blanket. That is it.
SPIRIT: The evidence, though, is big.
TEWOLDE: They never said anything about DNA.
PINSKY: Yes.
TEWOLDE: All they said was, this is a blanket that she said back in 1991, so she did not recognize. And, all of a sudden, now, the niece is saying,
"No, that blanket is the one that I used to cuddle with him with." And, the mom says, "No, I did not know what that blanket was." So, that is the
only thing that they have that is new.
SLATEN: I will tell you, Drew.
TEWOLDE: I do not think that, that is strong enough.
SLATEN: I would want to defend this case if all they have is this blue blanket. I want to take this case, that way I get an acquittal.
PINSKY: Do you figure that is all they have?
TEWOLDE: Yes.
PINSKY: Really:
TEWOLDE: I think that, that is all they have.
SLATEN: It seems like that is their smoking gun.
PINSKY: It gets them back in the courtroom, is that what they want? They want her to be back in the courtroom, so they can open this thing all up
again?
TEWOLDE: No, you want to use that blanket as a reason to investigate the crime again. You do not necessarily take this thing to trial with just the
blanket.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: Got it. Got it. Right. Next up, why 25 years, why did it take 25 years to make the case against this so-called mom of man who knows, he
will tell us.
And, later, 50,000 volts of electricity for five seconds. Hold your breath for five seconds, imagine 50,000 volts going through you. A judge fired
from the bench. We are live for having pulled the trigger on what you are looking at right there, because the guy would not shut up, well you have to
do something. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Timothy Wiltsey`s life had barely begun. Just five years old, when the little boy from South Amboy vanished. His mother,
Michel Lodzinski said he had been abducted from a carnival.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: There were a bunch of different stories, and nobody really knew exactly what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Eleven months after his disappearance, the child`s remains were discovered. But investigators never made an arrest
and Lodzinski moved out of state.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And, in fact, she started a new life in a new state, had two more sons. Back with Yodit, Spirit, Troy, Steve and Pat. And, Steve, you are
an FBI agent, what do you think they missed 25 years ago?
MOORE: Well, the first thing I would have done is taken that blue blanket and looked at it microscopically for every square millimeter. Because if
you have killed a child and used that blanket to wrap the child up, I can guarantee you, you cannot do that without leaving some type of DNA cells, a
hair, or something.
It is not just this blanket. I bet they got something inside this blanket. The other thing I would have done is the behavior of the mom. Yes, it was
strange, but that may be her behavior all the time. That may be her baseline. If she was not emotional at her son`s wedding, I probably would
have followed her to every funeral she went to for the next 20 years to see how she reacted to other losses.
PINSKY: Pat, are these two cases seemed to have gotten under your skin. I know you want to as you said hammer bamboo shoots under their finger nails.
These are moms, who have violated their fundamental sacred responsibility as a parent one way or another, right? Is that what has you so upset?
LALAMA: Yes, I mean I think what has me upset is that they are just manipulative enough to somehow evade prosecution. Now, let us understand
we know people are innocent until proven guilty, but I just see so much -- I know you know this too, Dr. Drew. I mean it breaks my heart to see that
these children have no voice. There is no justice. It is so frustrating to me, and that is why I take it personally.
[19:40:00] If I could just say one thing about the blanket, and maybe one of your other guests could respond. Why did not they think to take that
blanket to the niece all those years ago? Why now? Are they carrying it around to people saying, does this look familiar? That is a problem for me
in terms of this investigation.
PINSKY: Troy.
SLATEN: It is a problem because it may have nothing to do with it. This blanket may be a complete canard. I mean, you know, Dr. Drew, just because
the mom`s DNA is on it, just because the dead child`s DNA is on it, it does not mean that she murdered the child. You would expect the mother`s DNA to
be on it. You would expect the child`s DNA to be on it.
PINSKY: How about what Pat was saying about the manipulation. It is interesting to me. What I am seeing here, and Spirit maybe you could
respond to this too by giving you the chance first, is that what I am responding to, Pat is responding to her manipulations and then how she then
violates her responsibility as a mom is able to get away with it.
I as a male am responding to the degree of deceptive cold hearted manipulation. It is so profound in both these cases, for me that it just
it cares me. It is actually frightening to see somebody that cold and that manipulative.
TEWOLDE: But that does not spell out conviction or murder in this situation. All you have is a blanket. And, like Troy said, you may have
all sorts of DNA but this was a blanket that this kid used, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
TEWOLDE: And, so, my -- I have the same question that Pat does.
PINSKY: How do you put it together?
TEWOLDE: And, why now?
PINSKY: Yes. And, Spirit, you know what I am saying, right? Spirit, you get me, right?
SPIRIT: It is the lack of emotion as a mother. The lack of maternal instincts.
PINSKY: I am going to put a stronger word. They both seem like not human.
SPIRIT: Exactly.
PINSKY: The lack of humanity here is so chilling --
SPIRIT: Even if you did give your child away, the loss of having to make that sacrifice --
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: -- so they could have a better life.
PINSKY: That is right.
SPIRIT: The lack of emotions says there is something amiss here.
PINSKY: Yes, amiss. To challenge Troy for a second, maybe did not murder, but behaved in ways that are really not OK.
SPIRIT: There is dirt in this buttermilk.
SLATEN: This is a mom whose child was kidnapped at a carnival. Are we thinking about maybe her story is truthful?
SPIRIT: And, why is not she hysterical?
TEWOLDE: Now, but she does not --
LALAMA: There are four stories. Four stories.
PINSKY: Pat, there are four different stories. Pat, give us two of them. Go ahead.
LALAMA: One of them was -- Now, let me just make sure I get this right. One of them was I think she said an exotic dancers stroll by that she
recognized and exotic dancer was going to watch, and then the exotic dancer and a guy --
PINSKY: So, the Troy defense. Yes, it is terrible. It is really, again, the cunning, the lack of any sort of respect for other people of the truth
--
TEWOLDE: But, Dr. Drew, you and Spirit are describing something that is not a crime.
PINSKY: I get it. I get it. You guys got to make it a crime. I understand it.
TEWOLD: Now, we are making a crime, it is all of that in addition to everything.
PINSKY: I get it.
SPIRIT: There is a problem, look further.
PINSKY: Right. That is right.
SLATEN: But, if it were not for the story that the baby was stolen -- the child was stolen from the carnival because of the jailhouse confession.
There was a guy who said --
PINSKY: Let me give it to you.
SLATEN: OK.
PINSKY: Michelle`s defense -- again, the Troy defense claiming that a man who is now 53, he served time in federal prison is Timmy`s killer. A
witness who shared a cell with him, back when they are both in prison, obviously, said that he had intended to molest Timmy, but then killed him.
There you go, Troy. So, is that your defense?
SLATEN: That is the defense. I mean not only is that what she said, but there is corroboration.
PINSKY: Pat. Pat is sick. Pat is sick. Go ahead.
SLATEN: Bu, the guy in jail has nothing to gain by telling the story.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Pat.
LALAMA: You are talking to me, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. You sound like you are going to throw up. Go ahead.
LALAMA: You know what? It is just a good thing I do not make the laws, because everybody would be in prison. I mean, come on.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: For the record, for the record, for the record. Pat, it is a good thing you do not make the laws. I do not want everybody in prison. But,
listen, I got to go.
Next up, I have a stun gun, an impatient judge and a defendant, the guy who is wearing the stun gun around his ankle. He just would not be quiet. He
would not be quiet. So, you know. Yes, that is what happens. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" SHOW: A trial judge gets irritated on the bench and orders a man electric shocked in court until the man falls
on the floor screaming in pain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DELVON KING, DEFENDANT: The statutes that violate the --
JUDGE ROBERT NALLEY, TRIAL JUDGE: Stop. Stop.
KING: -- depend upon --
JUDGE NALLEY: Mr. Sheriff, do it. Use it.
(DEFENDANT SCREAMING IN PAIN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REOPORTER: With the push of a remote, a sheriff`s deputy sends 50,000 volts through the stun cuff on the defendant`s ankle sending
him to the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You all torturing me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That man who was tased was acting as his own attorney. He is representing himself on a gun charge. The 72-year-old judge who ordered
the tasing was banned from the bench for life and recently pleaded guilty to civil rights violations. I was just thinking, Troy, if Pat Lalama were
on the bench I think we would see more of these kinds of actions. A lifetime band, is that appropriate?
(LAUGHING)
SLATEN: I do not think so. A judge has an absolute right to control his courtroom. This person was getting out of control. And, look, may be the
stun --
PINSKY: The ladies are reacting.
SLATEN: The stun may have been a little bit overboard, but a lifetime ban on an otherwise distinguished jurist does not seem appropriate.
PINSKY: Spirit.
SPIRIT: I think I am actually speechless, almost, Dr. Drew. You cannot stun somebody because you are annoyed with them. The idea that he even had
this device on in and off itself sounds inhumane.
PINSKY: Yodit.
TEWOLDE: What is disturbing is that he goes, do it, do it.
[19:50:00] PINSKY: Yes. Use it.
TEWOLDE: That tells me that you have done this other times. And, why would you even have it around the man`s ankle in the first place?
PINSKY: Well, the judge says that the deputy escorted the defendant out of the courtroom. And then heard him say, quote, "You know, that is just a
show. This is all going to be all day long, so you better be ready." In other words, this is going to be something he had kind to put on. He is
going to put on the internet. He is going to make a big deal out of it.
TEWOLDE: Why does it matter?
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: The judge could have been tased before they kicked him off the bench. That is all I am going to say.
TEWOLDE: This is what the media starts to do. Now, we start actually criminalizing this victim, because he is a victim and yes he is a
defendant. He was charged with the gun offense. But, at the same time, we are talking about this incident about him being shot.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, we spent a lot of time talking about other people`s behavior. This judge has got a previous history.
TEWOLDE: Wow.
PINSKY: In 2010, he pleaded guilty to tampering with the vehicle after he had deflated the tire of a car that was parked in a restricted courthouse
zone. Then, he was suspended -- this guy has style.
Look at the bow tie, give them away. He was suspended for five days without pay. But, Yodit, there you go. So, we are talking with these moms
with previous history and their behavior. This guy has got a history too.
TEWOLDE: Well, they are talking about how this guy had previous violence offenses and he is doing this and that --
PINSKY: Wait, wait. This guy, the defendant?
TEWOLDE: The defendant.
PINSKY: The victim.
TEWOLDE: That the defendant has run out of court before, on foot. Was he doing that now? He was not.
PINSKY: And, let us be fair, he has had 33 criminal filings. This is a guy that were shot. Everything from traffic violations and robbery to
illegal possession of firearms and second-degree assault. So --
TEWOLDE: But, it is not fair. He is innocent until proven guilty. He is in there to prove -- he does not have to prove his innocence, he has to
prove his guilty.
SLATEN: Thirty-three convictions. Innocent until proven guilty. He has been guilty and guilty and guilty and guilty.
TEWOLD: OK. Troy, heads up. When you go into a criminal courthouse, you have criminals who have a history. That does not mean they all need to be
strapped.
SLATEN: And, we do not let people just talk all they want and use up all the judicial resources.
TEWOLDE: Troy, I would hate to see what this judge would have done, if he raised his voice. If he showed disrespect in a threatening manner, what
would he have done, shot him?
SPIRIT: And, he is lucky that he did not kill him. You do not know about what health conditions he might have had.
TEWOLDE: I mean, come on. He shot him.
SLATEN: No one is going to get shot.
PINSKY: It is dangerous. It is dangerous with those tasers. You cannot be -- what I love is throwing meet between you two and watch you chew.
And, next, I got more about this stun cuff and why you perhaps do not want to have one near you, back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: A Maryland judge has been banned from the bench for life after he ordered a deputy to activate a stun cuff, sounds preconium. This cuff was
being worn by a defendant in the courtroom, and this guy`s behavior became disruptive. Really bottom line was he kept talking. So, the judge would
not have it. Here is what -- you take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELVON KING, DEFENDANT: The statutes that violate the --
JUDGE ROBERT NALLEY, TRIAL JUDGE: Stop. Stop.
KING: -- depend upon --
JUDGE NALLEY: Mr. Sheriff, do it. Use it.
(DEFENDANT SCREAMING IN PAIN)
JUDGE NALLEY: All right. I am going to take five. When he calms down, I will be back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Yes, sir.
JUDGE NALLEY: Five minutes.
(DEFENDANT SCREAMING IN PAIN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: You can rest here for a minute and then go back. The judge said that give him five minutes.
KING: Well, I do not feel good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, imagine you are the next case up. Not cool.
TEWOLDE: No! So, I have something shackled too to my ankle too? And, I do not even know when this judge is going to arbitrarily just say, "Use it,
do it." And, Troy, I want to put an ankle monitor on you or device that I have control over.
SLATEN: And if I say something that you disagree with.
TEWOLDE: Right. Right.
(LAUGHING)
SPIRIT: You see where this is going?
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: So, Dr. Drew, let us talk about this real quick. Because even though it is unclear why he was actually wearing the stun gun, the
Baltimore post examiner spoke with the senior attorney with the ACLU in Maryland. And, basically, what they said is that the device is dependent
upon the judge`s ruling. That they have the right to be able to wear it --
PINSKY: Hold on. Slow down. Slow down. So, a judge has a -- what state is this in? Is this by state or is just by --
SPIRIT: This is Baltimore in Maryland.
PINSKY: Baltimore. Maryland has a right -- Judges have a right to put torture instruments in their courtroom on their defendant.
SPIRIT: No. Not only that, but a judge can order the device to be triggered if the defendant attacks someone or attempts to flee. But,
quote, "It is not proper to use it because the judge is annoyed." And he added it is not a torture device to make a defendant more compliant.
PINSKY: But, by the way, not proper is one thing, but it is really wrong, is not it?
TEWOLDE: It is wrong. It is cruel.
SPIRIT: It is barbaric.
TEWOLDE: It is barbaric.
PINSKY: Troy defend him, defend him.
SLATEN: No. The judge did the wrong thing in that moment, but he should not be fired and permanently banned from the bench for life. I mean, this
was a five second incident. That does not --
SPIRIT: He has just been tased at 50,000 watts.
SLATEN: OK. So, maybe even that, but --
TEWOLDE: So, you are suggesting that after this judge just shocked somebody, OK, with 50,000 watts or volts --
SLATEN: You are probably in contempt.
SPIRIT: And then walks away.
TEWOLDE: -- you are suggesting that he remain on the bench?
SLATEN: Yes.
PINSKY: Troy, what if this guy had been in a bar and smashed somebody in the face because he annoyed him. Would that be OK?
SLATEN: No. Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Would he had consequence sitting on a bench?
SLATEN: You mean, if the judge hit a guy?
PINSKY: The judge. What if the judge just smashed him on a face who was annoying him? --
SLATEN: If he committed a criminal act like that?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
SLATEN: That probably would not be OK.
PINSKY: OK. We are putting this in the same zone. You guys did a great job. Right same zone.
TEWOLDE: Same zone.
PINSKY: Same zone.
TEWOLDE Same zone.
PINSKY: Spirit, so good to see you here. You missed our anniversary show yesterday.
SPIRIT: I know.
PINSKY: But, I am so glad you got your greeting, and it is good to see you here today. I want to thank Pat. I want to thank Steve who is with me
also earlier in the program. You guys did a great job.
DVR the show, then you can watch it any time. We do appreciate you tuning in and watching the show, Monday through Thursday. Thank you very much.
Nancy Grace is up next.
[20:00:00] (END)
END
