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Dr. Drew
Gruesome Details Continue To Surface In The Murder Of A Seattle Mom; John Charlton`s Parents Filed A Restraining Order Against Him; Single Mom Warning Women With Daughters; Caught On Tape: Gasman Attacks Two Pet Dogs With A Pipe Wrench. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 13, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:00:14] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, we have new and horrific details exposed. There is a 15-inch saw
tissue remains in a bathtub drain. Plus body parts in a recycling bin. We are just beginning to learn what happened to this Seattle mom. Even the
suspect`s own parents were afraid of him.
Plus, caught on tape, the gasman attacks two pet dogs with a pipe wrench. The owners outraged. What do you think? Is that appropriate? Let us get
started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
PINSKY: Even now as we are coming to you going live, gruesome details continue to surface in the murder of a Seattle mom; her head, other body
parts found in a recycling bin. Her alleged killer, someone she met online. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST OF "NANCY GRACE" PROGRAM: Dips her toe back into the dating scene, it all ends in tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A friend say the mother of three left home Friday to watch the Mariner`s Home Opener with a date she met online.
When Ingrid did not show up to pick up her daughter Saturday morning, friends went on social media desperate to get the word out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANCESCHINA: The longer it goes on, the more you think there is -- you know, something that is not going to -- she is not coming back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF KATHLEEN O`TOOLE, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: On Saturday, April 9th at approximately 4:19 p.m. A citizen living in the 1600 block of 21st
avenue reported finding what he believed to be human remains in his recycling container.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Her remains wrapped in several plastic bags and quote, "Still fresh."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: Bits of human flesh and blood were reportedly found in her own bathtub in the drain. The suspect, John Charlton, is being held on $2
million bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But, there is nothing that physically linked them to the crime that has been released yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLOOM: She fought for her life. There is going to be her DNA under his fingernails and there is not going to be a good explanation for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, I have Diana Aizman, Criminal Defense Attorney; Areva Martin, Attorney and legal consultant and Jason Mattera, Correspondent from
"Crime Watch Daily."
Now, according to court documents Ingrid Lyne, this is the victim, the mother of this woman went to her daughter`s home, found her cell phone and
then began wildly texting this guy, Charlton, who was the online beau regarding Ingrid`s whereabouts. We have got an audio recreation. Listen
to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO RECREATION)
JOHN CHARLTON, MAIN SUSPECT IN THE MURDER OF INGRID LYNE: My name is John, I thought she was with her kids today.
JORGA BASS, INGRID LYNE`S MOTHER: When did you see her last? She is not here. But her phone is here and driver`s license and purse but she is not.
Please respond. I have called 911.
CHARLTON: 911? What is going on? We went to the Mariner`s Game last night, but we did not stay the night together because she has her kids
today. Not sure what she has told you about me and our relationship.
BASS: She is missing. What time did you see her last? A police officer needs to speak with you as you may be the last person who saw her.
(END AUDIO RECREATION)
PINSKY: Charlton never responded to the subsequent texts pleading for him to contact police. Jason, consciousness of guilt?
JASON MATTERA, CORRESPONDENT, "CRIME WATCH DAILY": It is certainly suspicious because clearly he is the last person to have seen her alive.
And, listen, right now, we do not know if there is any forensic evidence that links him to, I mean, horrifying brutal murder here.
PINSKY: Let me interrupt you. Last person to see her --
MATTERA: Well, I agree. I agree.
PINSKY: -- is asked to call the cops.
MATTERA: I agree.
PINSKY: He will not do it. He did not respond to mom --
MATTERA: I agree. This guy is completely suspicious. So, then, you will look into some of his past behavior. What I find very, very suspicious too
is we know that his own parents took out a restraining order on him.
And, the night that they took out the restraining order where he was threatening them and trying to pick a fight, he takes from the bookshelf a
movie, "Hannibal" and says to his mom, "Watch this and beware."
He is threatening his mom with a cannibalistic serial killer. I mean, come on! Listen, it is not in this guy`s favor everything we know about him
right now.
PINSKY: Jason, I think you and I are the only two normies here, because the attorneys are both rolling their eyes, "Well, that does not mean
anything." Diana, come on now. Look at the pictures of this guy. Show me -- Look with the stars in his eyes here.
Now, everybody watch what you post online. You never know what might show up on a television slow later. But, people are wondering how could this
guy walk through life seemingly normal and have a horrible background and be potentially able to do something like this?
DIANA AIZMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. First of all, the stars in the eyes, does not a murderer make. And, the horrible background is way
more connected to his drug and alcohol abuse. He is obviously an addict. He is obviously suffering from some sort of a problem.
PINSKY: It is not obvious to me. Wait, wait. It is not obvious to me. I am an addictionologist. I did not hear anybody say that he was in prison
for substance abuse. I did not hear him say he is struggling. I did not hear him say -- I am sure I did not hear it.
[19:05:05] AIZMAN: Well, substance abuse is not a crime, right? But, oftentimes battery, burglary, these types of offenses are associated --
PINSKY: Sure.
AIZMAN: -- with people who have problems with drugs and alcohol.
PINSKY: You are speculating that is in his background. Much of a motivation for him.
AIZMAN: Absolutely. And, his parents said that they reached out and they got a restraining order against him primarily because he gets violent or he
gets -- I would say antagonistic when he is under the influence.
PINSKY: And, Areva, I like the way the defense attorney chooses her words so carefully. The guy is not violent. He is just antagonistic.
(LAUGHING)
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY, LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
PINSKY: He is just antagonistic, you know, like anybody that should --
MARTIN: I just have to tell you that --
PINSKY: -- by the way, camera, again. Anybody, antagonistic, like anybody that chops people up.
MARTIN: Yes.
AIZMAN: Allegedly.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Allegedly. Allegedly. Right, it is allegedly.
MARTIN: I have three kids, so I cannot even imagine what the ex-husband and the family is going through.
PINSKY: Yes.
MARTIN: Having to explain to those kids that their mom has not only, you know, was missing but now we know she is dead. I had flash backs to Jodi
Arias. You know, we spent a lot of time on this show talking about the gruesome horrific crime committed in that case. And, I had a flashback to
that, because of how this murder happen.
And, I am all for giving this guy a chance and if he is not guilty, God bless him. But, right now he is the main suspect. He should be the main
suspect. This is every woman`s worst nightmare. You meet a guy online, seems normal. You go on a date and your head is chopped off? That is
scary stuff.
PINSKY: Yes.
MATTERA: They are giving him a chance just to see if he is not the person, he is not the person --
MARTIN: A little chance.
MATTERA: You know, his excuse by the way -- we have seen a previous of this defense, he blacked out. He does not really -- he went on this
alcoholic rage, and this bender. He does not remember what happened.
Usually when you blackout, if you wake up the next day and you are like, "Oh, shoot, who did I sleep with," right? It is like what bad decision I
thought did I make?" This guy, "Who did I dismember?"
PINSKY: Yes.
MATTERA: I mean, come on.
PINSKY: Well, let me get into that, which is how does somebody walk around in the world seemingly normal. And, Areva is bringing us a great case
example, which is Jodi Arias on her face, if you were to meet her out in the world, you would not be able to detect this someone has violent rage
and is a murderous psychopath.
And, yet she had that potential. This guy could be the same sort of person. And, although, Jason, you say the blackout is not a defense. It
is not a defense.
AIZMAN: No.
PINSKY: But, if he knows that he becomes aggressive or what was the word you used?
AIZMAN: Antagonistic.
PINSKY: Antagonistic when he is blacked out or consuming alcohol, other people`s lives and his own well-being is contingent upon him staying sober.
And, if he was using in a blackout became antagonistic and chopped somebody off, that is on him not on the blackout.
In a court document, detective said, a 15-inch pruning saw was found near the bathtub -- look at that, in Ingrid Lyne`s home. They also discovered a
nearly empty box of garbage bags in the home. And, the box -- the bags contained in those bags, not box, are identical to those containing her
body parts in the recycling bin. But, Diana, you say that still does not connect him to the murder.
AIZMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: But, it just says what happened in the murder.
AIZMAN: Where is his hair? Where is his blood? Where is he in any of this evidence? He is not there. There is not enough to connect him to
this crime at this point.
MATTERA: That we know of. That we know of.
MARTIN: I think it is way too early to talk about it is not him right now. We know he was the last person that was with her.
AIZMAN: Right.
MARTIN: We know there is going to be a complete forensic examination of this home. But, when you use the word antagonistic, I think the both
sociopath is the word we should be using. Antagonistic means, I yelled at you, maybe I screamed at you. I do not chop your head off. That is not
antagonism. This is sociopathic behavior.
PINSKY: Yes. I would not even say it is psychopathic behavior.
MARTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: And, you got to remember, everybody, people do not understand. Because the way the movies are, you imagine somebody who could chop
somebody up is constantly evil and constantly aggressive and constantly violent. Quite the contrary.
Sociopaths can be very charming, very entertaining. Psychopaths are sometimes a little cold and a little more distant. I think this guy, if he
allegedly did this. If he did this, sort of fits more of that spectrum. And, you know, he is manipulative online saying, "I am just here for a
friendship and a good date, not to have sex or anything."
MARTIN: He even said that to the mom. "What is going on? We just went to a nice game. Is not she home?" That even too was eerie to me the way he
responded to the mother.
MATTERA: He did tell the police he may or may have not had sex with her. He was not sure. He was not sure if they had sex.
PINSKY: He was in a blackout. Jason, relax. Jason, you say, he woke up, "Did I have sex there or not?" No. This is all B.S.
MATTERA: Sure.
PINSKY: Next up, the suspect`s own parents feared their son, as we have said. And, they had called the cops in the past on him.
And, later two backyard dogs minding their own business, the gasman shows up and it got bad. It got ugly. The homeowner is joining me. Back after
this.
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[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: More than 250 people united in grief at St. Matthew`s church in Renton, honoring and praying for Ingrid Lyne. This is
now how she was taken but how the 40-year-old live. The Swedish Medical Center nurse is described as smart, funny, she loved sports, but above all,
was a devoted mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM MORRELL, FAMILY FRIEND: Those three beautiful girls -- those three beautiful Lyne girls, they have to live with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Lyne`s ex-husband, the girl`s father released this statement, saying in part, "A light went out of our lives
forever. Ingrid was taken from us for reasons we still cannot comprehend."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: She was funky. She was funny. She likes to help in the classroom and community will miss her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. I am back with Diana, Areva, Jason, and joining me from Seattle, Alison Grande, Reporter for CNN-Affiliate KIRO. Now, Alison,
I understand that John Charlton admits he was with Ingrid Lyne before she disappeared. Does he have any explanation for why he did not respond to
the mother`s pleading that he contact the police? -- Oh! I know she is hearing me --
[19:15:05] ALISON GRANDE, REPORTER, KIRO-TV: No.
PINSKY: There you go.
GRANDE: He does not have an answer at this point, but he did tell detectives he knows Ingrid Lyne. He did tell detectives that he knows
Ingrid Lyne, that he had been dating her for about a month, that he met her online, that he had been to her house before. He told police he spent the
night there.
We talked to some of Ingrid Lyne`s friends who happened to be neighbors and they are right across the stress. They told us yesterday that they had
seen him at the house. He had been there off and on over the last six weeks or so. This was not some first dates that went to this terrible
ending.
Instead, they say, Charlton had gained Ingrid`s trust. They described her as smart and feisty and loyal. Now, Charlton told police, he and Ingrid
did go to the Mariner`s game on Friday night. They went back to her home.
But he told investigators he was so intoxicated, he does not remember how they got back to her house or exactly what happened at her house. And, in
fact, he did tell investigators that Ingrid was acting weird.
Now, after that, her house is just south of Seattle in a suburb called Renton. But he told police, he ended up back here in Seattle that night
and slept on the sidewalk, but he does not know how he got there. How he got home and how he got to Seattle.
Remember, her remains were found in a recycling bin in Seattle not too far away from where he had been living. He also then told investigators, he
went to his ex-girlfriend`s house and spent Saturday and Sunday night there. And, that is where we found out he was arrested.
PINSKY: Wow! That is a lot of just goofy detail to that story. Has that girlfriend been publicly, sort of, investigated yet?
GRANDE: You know, we have been trying to reach her. We do have that address. We have been to that house. We have talked to some neighbors,
who said that is where he had been seen and where he was arrested. We have not talked to that girlfriend yet.
But, to me what was interesting with all of this is how this played out online. And, he was -- people were searching for him, trying to find him,
because they figured that was the last person who had seen Ingrid.
At that point, even one of his ex-girlfriends reached out saying that she, you know, was just so shocked with all of this, that she had dated him and
to know that he could be in involved in this was upsetting to her. This really also played out online and her parents and her friends were able to
help police kind of zero in on Charlton to start with.
PINSKY: Alison, thank you very much for that report. Please update us on what you discover about these previous girlfriends. A. There seems to be a
lot of them. You have already mentioned two in a very short period of time, and B. They may know something.
Because we know the parents are very worried about him. So, if the parents are worried, I would wonder if some of these young ladies would have
something, or spidey sense or "Seen him intoxicated," "I have seen an outburst," that might help us understand this.
Of course, we are talking about John Charlton. He is the man that this victim reportedly met online. Now, dating profile belong into Charlton
reads in part, quote, "My intent here is simply to make friends and meet up for good conversation." "I am not here for dating. Only friendships."
I am sure he told all these women that. This is not some scam to get laid either. OK. Now, not only it is that manipulative. It is like meta-
manipulative (ph), Jason. I mean, it is like, "Not me, I am not here for sex. Just to have good conversation."
MATTERA: Yes, because what guy on a dating website would say the opposite, "Hey, listen! I am just here to get laid."
PINSKY: Yes.
MATTERA: "I do not care about having good conversation. I do not really care about you as a person either. I just want some." I mean, come on!
This was his pathetic way of getting a woman interested in him.
And, unfortunately, it looks like Ingrid Lyne, it ended in her demise. And, you know what, here is the thing. It is not like -- We know this guy
has shown outbursts in the past. He has an arrest record that spans six states.
PINSKY: Well, let me give it to you.
MATTERA: Six states.
PINSKY: Here it is. This court documents have the confirmation of the criminal history in six states including a 2006 conviction of aggravated
robbery in Utah. Three years later, convicted of battery in Idaho, felony theft in Montana.
And, as part of his five-year probation for that felony theft, he spent time in drug treatment. Clearly, he did not take that seriously because he
is still drinking. I do not care what your drug of choice is, if you are drinking, you are not sober. By the way, if you know you have got some
behavioral issues when you are using, it is on you. It is on you, not the drug.
MARTIN: Yes. And, one thing that is interesting to me about this, Dr. Drew, he has seemingly has memory, because he has been able to give the
police some level of details. He slept on the street. He was at his ex- girlfriend`s house for two days.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. And, he said that the victim acted weird.
MARTIN: Yes. That is an important --
PINSKY: That is a very specific detail for somebody in a blackout.
MARTIN: A very specific detail for someone who cannot remember something as convalesce, "I had sex" even though of course he says online he does not
really want sex. And, according to these neighbors, he was spending the night at her home.
So, we can assume they were probably sleeping together. So, the guy who did not want to have sex is sleeping with this woman from what it appears
based on the neighbors` statement. So, I am a little bit disturbed by him.
[19:20:00] PINSKY: I am a little disturbed, and Dianna I will give you -- I am getting disturbed by this --
AIZMAN: Take a deep breath.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. Take a deep breath. I know you are disturbed too, but I want to give you a little more fuel for the prosecution, which is that in
2006, Charlton`s Parents filed for protection order. They alleged that he came home drunk.
The petition says he was, quote, "Physically putting his chest into my body." He removed a movie -- Jason, you told this story. "He removed a
movie from the shelf called Hannibal, set it in front of my wife, told her she should watch this and beware," end quote. Now, would that be
immiscible in court?
AIZMAN: Maybe, but where are the criminal charges stemming from that incident? Is that just a civil restraining order that they got or did he
actually attack his parents and there are all criminal charges stemming from that incident?
MATTERA: Just a restraining order.
AIZMAN: OK.
MARTIN: But I think -- here is a guy that takes out this movie and gives it to his parents and then we possibly learn that he has sawed someone`s
head off.
MATTERA: Watch this movie and beware?
MARTIN: And beware?
MATTERA: Who says that to their mom?
MARTIN: Who says that to their parents?
MATTERA: I mean, come on!
AIZMAN: He is not a good guy. There is no question he is a little scummy. His dating profile -- I am not defending his character. All I am saying is
that all of these things do not make a murderer. It is not enough to connect him to this crime, yet.
PINSKY: So, let me get a crime scene expert. How about that?
AIZMAN: OK.
PINSKY: Would that help?
AIZMAN: That would help.
PINSKY: OK. That would help. That would help. I want to bring in -- Oh, Diana, I would want you as a defensive attorney. You say the most
incredible things with a smile, makes it so palatable. This is guy more than a creep, allegedly; allegedly more than a creep.
AIZMAN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Lovely.
(LAUGHING)
Next up, we got the crime scene expert. He is here and he will tell you just how difficult it is to dismember a body and what kind of violence that
must take. And, why and who cut the head off?
And, later, backyard battle, man versus dog. He won the fight but used a pipe wrench. Necessary? Really? Really? Look at that. Oh my God! Back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. Ingrid Lyne, single mom found just hours after she was reported missing. Her body parts were found including her head, an arm, a
foot, found in three separate plastic bags inside a recycling bin. I am back with my panel, Diana, Areva and Jason.
And, I am going to show them what it takes, the amount of aggression and violence it takes to take a pruning saw and saw through a femur. It is
insane. Here you go, guys. I am going to do -- I mean, you have to work at this and work at it and work at it. It is not something you are doing
in a few minutes in a bathtub.
And, by the way, this is just the bone. There is soft tissue as well that has got to be cut through. You see how this is, right? I do not need to
cut the whole thing in half to give you a sense of how profoundly violent somebody and the deep intention they have got to have to really get through
this. It is just mind boggling. Thank you guys. Thank you. Rhoda, I am going to give you this. Thank you.
Now, joining us via Skype is a Crime Scene Specialist, President of Seekfirst Forensic Consulting, Randolph Beasley. Randolph, thank you as
always for joining us. I just wanted to do a little demonstration there to give people a sense of just what kind of mind, what kind of -- I do not
want to call it a human, because you are sort of behaving inhumanly. Who dismembers a body? Why?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CRIME SCENE SPECIALIST, RETIRED (via Skype): Well, two things typically, Dr. Drew. Number one, to make it harder to identify the
victim. And number two, is to make it easier to dispose of the body. And, great minds think a like. I picked up the same saw that you just used, by
the way. But, yes, it is harder to identify and make it easier to dispose, which is what they --
PINSKY: But, Randolph, I understand psychopathy and I understand blacking out and I understand aggression associated with drug use and rages and
violence and all this business. I understand what that is. And, by the way, everyone in our green room thinks this is the hot car villain -- one
of the guy with a picture that went fell in love the --
AIZMAN: The mug shot.
PINSKY: The mug shot. The hot mug shot. This is your next hot mug shot. Listen, people, because somebody is attractive does not make them a good
person. This guy, extra manipulative, extra charming. Be aware, it is all I am saying.
But, my question, Randolph is -- I get the violence, I get the blackout, I get what psychopaths and sociopaths are capable of, but cutting off
someone`s head, that goes to another level for me. Does it not? Is there any profiling for people who are able to do that?
BEASLEY: Well, yes. I had a case where the suspect cut the victim`s head off with a box cutter. OK? Box cutter.
PINSKY: Oh-oh.
BEASLEY: But, basically, Dr. Drew, if you look at this diagram, it is the path of least resistance. So, you are going to cut at the joint, you are
not going to cut through the femur bone. So, here you have the blue would be the torso. You cut off the arms. You cut of the head. So, it would be
something that could be done with a pruning-type saw pretty easily, actually.
PINSKY: So, you are saying, you do not go through the bone, just stay with the soft tissue. Do no do what I did. But, even that, have you ever tried
to take a chicken leg, and just dismembered it from -- I mean it is gross that we do this as human, as some might even object to that. But, you
know, a turkey leg, just taking it off the carcass, it is a little bit of a deal. You cannot just pull it off.
BEASLEY: Yes. You go through the joints. So, you are cutting through muscle, tendons, ligaments. You are not cutting through bone that way when
you go through the joint. So --
PINSKY: What do you say about the claims of blackout? Does that do anything for you at all?
BEASLEY: Well, I have heard that one before. I had a case where this guy killed his wife with a samurai sword and he claimed he blacked out as well.
Woke up, "And, oh my God! Someone killed my wife with a samurai sword that is sticking in her body." And, he remembers nothing. So, I think it is
very convenient defense to not admit that you have done something so heinous and that is what they fall back on.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: But, I have seen, Diana, to fuel your thing, I have seen people black out in substance use and black out with trauma. And, I
really believe they are blacked out. To me, I do not care if they are blacked out or not, though. They are still somebody capable of this
horrible behavior.
AIZMAN: OK. Can we have one other point? Alcohol, it affects your coordination, right? The amount of intention and coordination that it
would take to saw through a bone, think about how much you had to do just to get through the first layer of that bone. Somebody who is super drunk,
blackout drunk is not going to have that much stamina.
MATTERA: So, we only know that because he said he was blackout drunk.
AIZMAN: Right.
MARTIN: Yes.
MATTERA: We do not know if he was actually blackout --
AIZMAN: But his history is consistent with getting that.
MATTERA: If he is blacked out, right? -- he would have to kill her, then dismember her, then drive from Renton to Seattle, which is about 30 minutes
then dispose of the body, then dispose of the car. I mean, come on, there is no way he does that all blacked out.
AIZMAN: Right.
MARTIN: it is a very difficult time making that as a defense, a believable defense that is going to get him off if he is in fact the killer in this
case. And, one thing we have not talked about is the pain. How was this woman killed?
PINSKY: Well, that is -- yes.
MARTIN: And, what is the pain that she is experiencing as he is dismembering her body?
PINSKY: Randolph, any theory here?
MARTIN: It is just hard to fathom.
PINSKY: Yes, it is hard to imagine. Anything in your experience to lead you to imagine what this was?
BEASLEY: Hopefully, hopefully. In most instances, I have been involved with the cases they are already dead. So, the victim has already died.
They are not feeling pain. And, now, it is just the suspect thinking, "How can I get rid of the body?" And, the dismembering makes it easier to do.
PINSKY: I am going to bet the two leading causes of death that you see in situations like this is smashed in the head or asphyxiated.
BEASLEY: Correct. So, there would be blood spatter in her home that would show if there was some blunt force trauma, whether she was stabbed, beaten,
and it could be certainly choked, which hopefully they find the rest of her, so they can actually do that forensic work and get justice for the
family.
AIZMAN: It is disgusting.
BEASLEY: Yes.
MARTIN: And, the person that found her, the neighbor that goes out to his recycling bin and dumps it onto the lawn and sees body parts, that person
too is traumatized for life.
MATTERA: You know what, Dr. Drew? What is also interesting is his excuse when he says, "I woke up on the Seattle street and I just assumed that
Ingrid dropped me off here." This is a woman he is supposedly dating right for the last month?
PINSKY: Six weeks.
MATTERA: Right. And, that she just dropped him off on the street, and said "All right, buddy. I am going to leave now."
AIZMAN: Well, he does not know how he got there, right? And, I think there --
MATTERA: And, he assumed that she dropped him off there.
AIZMAN: -- the defense is not he got blacked out and while blacked out, he committed this crime. The defense is he was too blacked out to commit this
crime, meaning he did not do it.
PINSKY: Hold on. Blacked out --
AIZMAN: We are not arguing that.
PINSKY: People who are blacked out move around through space as though they are normal.
AIZMAN: Right. And, I am not --
PINSKY: Blackout not passed out drunk.
AIZMAN: Correct.
PINSKY: Blackout drunk.
AIZMAN: And, I am saying --
PINSKY: These are two very different things.
AIZMAN: He may have blacked out and she may have kicked him out of the house. You are too drunk, leave my house. Maybe they got into an
argument. He stumbled somewhere, fell asleep on a sidewalk.
PINSKY: But, Jason --
MARTIN: But, none of that is consistent with not responding to the mother. This is a woman you are dating. Presumably, you like her a little bit at
least --
AIZMAN: Yes.
MARTIN: -- because you are dating her. You are spending the night at her house. "Why not say, "Oh my God, is she missing?"
MATTERA: "I will be right over."
MARTIN: "Let me help."
MATTERA: Yes, "Let me help."
MARTIN: "What do I need to do?"
AIZMAN: I know why. Because he has been through the system before. And, he knows that as the last person she was seen alive with, he is obviously a
primary suspect.
MATTERA: And, he is right on that. And, he is right on that.
MARTIN: That is a lot of manipulation again. That is a lot of manipulation on his point.
PINSKY: Right.
MARTIN: Trying to manipulate the system again.
PINSKY: All right. We have got to go. Randolph, thank you. Panel, thank you.
Next up, a single mom is warning to women with daughters, "Make sure your boyfriend or husband is not a sexual predator."
And, later, who is in greater jeopardy the man in the video or the dogs he was hitting with a pipe wrench? Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CATHERINE ST. GERMAN SHOWING FLASHCARDS)
"Two years ago, I started dating a guy I had known for 20 years."
"He was a U.S. Navy Veteran."
"He was a COP for three years in Mooresville, N.C."
"On June 18th, 2014, we got MARRIED. I was soooo HAPPY."
"On April 23rd, 2015, I got a call from THE POLICE."
"The night before he had SEXUALLY ASSAULTED my daughter."
"She was 15."
"On January 20th, 2016, he was sentenced to 90 days in JAIL."
"And 8 years of sex offender probation."
"MONSTERS look and act NORMAL."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is a very important message for the theme that is carrying throughout the show today. Of course, that video was posted on Facebook.
It has been viewed over 51 million times. The ex-husband served just 90 days in jail for sexual assault. He was released yesterday.
I am back with Diana, Areva and Jason. And, joining us via Skype, Catherine St. Germain. She is the woman who made that video. Catherine,
you have moved a lot of people. Thank you for having, sort of, shared such a painful story to help other people.
(NO AUDIO)
PINSKY: Oh, I guess we are losing her audio there. Let us get to this conversation about what it is that they mean by sexual assault. Any sense
of what that might be? What is the spectrum of what they mean in that?
AIZMAN: It could be anything from sexual battery to rape. I mean it really just depends on the circumstances of the attack.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: Do any of you feel there is something -- hang on. Control room, I am assuming I still cannot speak to Catherine, is that
correct? Correct. What it means that he just got 90 days in jail.
It was not in prison. It was jail. I mean, does that mean he had almost no contact with the girl, or does it mean he had a great lawyer and he got
off with essentially murder?
MARTIN: I think it means the system failed this young girl. We are talking about what looks like a plea bargain, a deal between the defendant
and the prosecutor to plea to a lesser charge. And, then to have a recommendation of 90 days in jail.
And, I just cannot imagine. You can get more time for stealing a bag of chips at a convenience store than what apparently happened to this girl.
So, it is a story that I think makes all of us angry and we at the same time feel so much support for this mom that had the courage to tell this
story.
I am a mother, so I am sitting here cringing thinking about, "What do you do when a man you have known 20 years, you trust, you have brought him into
your home, you put him around your kids and then he betrays you in this way." It is unthinkable.
MATTERA: Ninety days is absolutely a joke, but there was DNA evidence that confirmed the sexual assault to authorities.
PINSKY: Yes.
MATTERA: So, what type of DNA evidence? I am only thinking one thing, right?
AIZMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
AIZMAN: Right. Yes.
PINSKY: Skin under the fingernails I am hoping for. Is Catherine there or not there? Is she there? OK. Catherine, were there ever any signs or did
you have anything that gave you any sort of -- again, please I want to say this not so you blame yourself in any way, so we help anyone else who might
be out there that has suspicions?
CATHERINE ST. GERMAIN, MADE VIDEO ABOUT EX-HUSBAND ABUSING DAUGHTER (via Skype): The only thing I think was I thought it was -- (INAUDIBLE)
(AUDIO PROBLEM)
PINSKY: See, I do not know if everyone else is hearing her, but I could not hear is thing. You know, what we do sometimes, control room is to get
her on the phone and watch her while she talks to us on the phone. That would be fantastic.
I want to speak to this woman if there is anyway possible. I mean, look, this woman has gone so far to make this video, 51 million views. She has
had to go through this. Let us see if we can give her a little bit of a platform to say what she wants to say.
I generally -- you know, it is so hard for people that are the victims of this. This is the gift that keeps on giving, I always say. The sexual
assault -- sexual abuse of children is so insanely common.
And, for someone that has not been through it, you cannot wrap your head around how it is possible that anyone could do this to kids. And, it has a
profound impact on their development of their brain, their ability to maintain their relationships. I mean a lot of stuff you watch on crime --
you deal on crime watch, I am sure has this component attached to it.
MATTERA: It absolutely does. And, there is, I think, two key factors to what this brave mother did, is her daughter went the next day of the sexual
assault and reported it to police, the next day. That is crucial. Also --
PINSKY: It is also crucial to say -- And, Catherine, I got you back. We are talking about your daughter, actually, going to the school the next day
and reporting this. That actually speaks volumes about her health, I must tell you. The fact that she could come to her own aid like that, so
quickly. How is your daughter doing?
ST. GERMAIN: She is actually doing amazing. She is about to start her senior year at high school and she is looking at colleges.
PINSKY: All right. So, she is OK. And, I want to go back to what I asked you before about any possible signs or any hints that people could look
for, if there is anything you could share with someone else, who might be suspicious even.
ST. GERMAIN: Well, the one thing I did not understand was what grooming is. That was really specific to my daughter.
PINSKY: What happened?
ST. GERMAIN: He would buy her extravagant gifts. He always wanted to get her ice cream when she was sad, go for a motorcycle ride. They would have
little talks and inside jokes. So, he was, basically, creating a really special bond between the two of them.
That in and of, itself, I thought was him being a great stepdad. I thought he missed his daughters and he was just a devoted stepfather. However, in
hindsight he did not act the same way with my son. He was distant. He was almost treated my son as an inconvenience or an annoyance. And, I just
thought they were kind of oil and water.
PINSKY: Did your gut tie up at any point when you watched what was going on between you and your daughter or the entire time you just thought, "Oh,
this is great that she got a dad?"
ST. GERMAIN: No. I really genuinely thought that he was being an awesome dad. I had no idea about his ulterior motives.
PINSKY: How did this end up with just 90 days?
ST. GERMAIN: What happen was there was DNA evidence and they had collected it from my daughter`s bra and some of her breasts. There were skin cells
that were matched to the samples he volunteered.
And, when the DNA evidence came back positive, he went from madly declaring his innocence to taking a plea bargain, because I think his very expensive
lawyer told him, "I can talk circles around most things, but I cannot get you out of DNA, not where they found it."
[19:45:06] PINSKY: Catherine, you sound great. I am so glad your daughter is thriving. I am sorry you had to go through this, but sincerest
hope that your courage come forward with this, will have helped somebody out there. And, I am going to bet that it will have helped a lot. Thank
you, Catherine.
ST. GERMAIN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Next up, two dogs, a gas company employee and a pipe wrench. Not a good combo. I talk to the dog owner. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Warning. What you are about to see is disturbing. Caught on a homeowner`s security video. A worker from the gas
company swinging at the family`s dogs with a pipe wrench.
Watch again as the Weimaranern approached the man. He attacks them. The homeowners say they were home when the gas guy arrived and that he went
into the backyard without letting them know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WILLCOX, HOMEOWNER WHOSE DOGS ATTACKED BY A GASMAN: He was swinging to kill, you know. Swinging to kill my family pets, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The gas company says, they were disconnecting service because the bills were not paid. And, in that case,
they do not have to knock. As for the dogs, both were injured. One needs surgery.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: You heard it right there, the homeowner accused of worker of, quote, "Swinging to kill." Back with Diana, Areva, Jason. Here is the
instrument he used. Let me hold it up for you. This thing weighs a good 12 pounds. And, if you were hit with the working end of this, it would
kill you in an instant. Right, Jason? No problem.
MATTERA: It would -- this is so upsetting. I love dogs more than most people, so I am probably a little biased here. But, two things, the dogs
if they did attack, we do not know if they attacked this gas worker. But, if they did, this guy was intruding on their property unannounced. So, the
dogs were doing their job.
Number two, the dogs could have just seen another human being and wanted -- you know, thinking to themselves, "Oh, more hands to give them a belly
rub." I mean, why not.
PINSKY: My dog makes a lot of noise and once you approach, it is licks and licks and licks.
MARTIN: I do not want to support what happened and I think it is horrible and I do not condone any kind of violence towards dogs --
PINSKY: And, by the way, for the record, in case anybody has any designs on my house, my dog is vicious. He is vicious. It will kill you. He
carries a monkey wrench with him all day.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: I am not condoning any violence towards dogs. But, look, I think we got to look at the policy. And, the policy is you do not have to knock
on the door. And, so, you put a worker at risk when you have them going into someone`s yard.
MATTERA: The worker should go and knock on the front door. "I have to do this. I have to be on the property."
MARTIN: Well, the gas company said they are going to change or at least look at this policy, because it is a dangerous policy. You go into
someone`s yard. You do not know what you are going to face.
PINSKY: A human could have done that to him, they do not know who he is.
MARTIN: This guy maybe freaks out. He sees the dog. Maybe, he is not used to being around dogs.
PINSKY: Areva.
MARTIN: And, he responds in a way that seems to be over --
PINSKY: There is a scam in my community where people come in dressed they are checking a meter, and they go in the back door and they ransack. I
mean, so --
AIZMAN: OK.
PINSKY: Let me get to the homeowner.
AIZMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: His name is Mike Willcox. Mike, how are the dogs doing? Everybody, OK?
WILLCOX: Yes. Hey, Dr. Drew, thanks for asking. Lash is -- he is going in for surgery on Friday. A follow-up checkup tomorrow. They are doing a
lot better. Thanks for asking.
PINSKY: Most of us -- I have not heard from Diana yet, I think she is going to defend the --
AIZMAN: The dog!
PINSKY: The dog. The dog.
AIZMAN: Yes. I am the dog lawyer.
PINSKY: OK. So, you are all, everyone is on the side of the dogs on this panel. But, now, most -- according to Dogtime.com, Weimaraners, which is
what your dog is we are looking at, they can be a little suspicious of strangers, but they do not attack, is that right?
WILLCOX: Yes. I mean, I would totally agree with that. I have had Weimaraners, ever since I was a young kid growing up. And, these two that
we have had for eight years and we have lived in two different homes, where I have had multiple contractors in and out of our backyard, and never once
had a problem with them ever been aggressive.
And, I mean, even most recently, my wife`s friend, we hosted her baby shower over here and had over 70 couples with young kids around, and the
kids just played and hung out with the puppies and never had any kind of a problem whatsoever.
PINSKY: How do you respond, Mike, to the boss from the gas company. The worker`s boss. He says that you released the dogs as the guy was going to
check the meter. He was blaming you for putting the dogs on -- unleashing the dogs on his worker.
WILLCOX: Yes. Well, for one thing I can say about that, there were two more cameras upfront were footage shooting at the front of my house that
depict his story that he came up with. But, my dogs know two commands, one is sit, and the other is time to eat. I mean that is all they know. They
are not trained for anything else. You know, they are just family pets.
So, for him to sit there and say that we turned our family pets into weapons or whatever, they have no kind of training like that. And, you
know, we have young kids and we want them to be friendly, you know pet friendly. So, you know, for him to sit there and say that, that is him
trying to cover his butt for what his contractor did to my pets.
PINSKY: All right. Mike, thank you for joining us. I am glad to hear the dogs are doing well. We have got to continue this conversation. We will
be back right after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Diana, Areva and Jason. Now, the gas company has told us that their employees are getting threats because of this story. Now, to
me, we are going a little too far. I love dogs. You love dogs. What are you shrugging your shoulders?
AIZMAN: I mean, do not take a job with the gas company or any other service company if you do not know how to handle yourself around animals.
PINSKY: Well, listen. I love dogs. I got dogs, but I could imagine swinging at a dog, not with intent to hurt or to even strike, but just to,
you know, give them, you know?
AIZMAN: But, that is not what this guy did.
PINSKY: I understand, but you can defend where he started, right? So, stay away. Stay away. But, Areva, you said what bothers you --
MARTIN: I think that is an unfair statement. Let us talk about the owner of the gas company. If you hire employees, let us give them the proper
training, so they do not find themselves in what could be a potentially dangerous situation.
PINSKY: And, you were concerned that the family -- one of the reports, that the family sat and watched this whole thing happened?
MARTIN: Yes, and they could have presumably stopped this and maybe the dogs would not have been injured and this man would not have felt like he
was at risk. That is the only question I have about this whole thing.
MATTERA: But, here is the thing.
PINSKY: 10 seconds, Jason.
MATTERA: The dogs did exactly what they should have done.
PINSKY: Yes.
MATTERA: They notified the family that there was an intruder on the premises.
PINSKY: Yes. Agree. The dogs did their job, right? And, he did do his, right? That is another issue.
MARTIN: Well, he did do his.
PINSKY: But, please, do not threaten the other employees. That is ridiculous. We all -- Complete panel of dog lovers. Yes, everybody?
MARTIN: Yes.
MATTERA: Yes. Absolutely.
MARTIN: And people lovers.
MATTERA: We are working on you. We are working on you.
(LAUGHING)
MARTIN: And workers, standing up for the workers.
PINSKY: All right. DVR us, then you can watch us any time. We appreciate it very much. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you, panel. Good
job. Hopefully, we will have you back soon. Let us see, we will see you - - we appreciate you watching, and Nancy Grace, I believe, is up next.
[20:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
