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Dr. Drew
Three Teenage Girls Drowned And Their Final Moments Are Caught On Dash Cam Video; 20-Year-Old Student Alleges Rape But The University Says She Violated School`s Honor Code; Florida Judge Accused Of Being Blitzed On The Bench. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 20, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[19:00:15] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Tonight, three teenage girls drowned. Their final moments are caught on
dash cam video. Florida police say they had stolen a car, but did the deputies do enough to save them as it plunged into a pond? The girls`
attorney says no.
And, did a Miami judge have too many cocktails before entering the courtroom? Witnesses say she was blitzed on the bench. Is it time for her
to give up the gavel? Let us get started.
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(INTRO MUSIC PLAYING)
PINSKY (on camera): Three teenage girls are dead after allegedly stealing a car and crashing into a pond. Police dash cam captured these horrific
events. Watch.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: It is about 2 feet of the trunk left and it is going to be completely under. It is going all the way down.
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BOB GUALTIERI, PINELLAS COUNTY SHERIFF: Three dead teenagers is not acceptable.
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SARAH ROSARIO, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: The girls are accused of stealing a car at a Walmart parking lot and running from police several times before
crashing into the pond.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I hear them yelling, I think.
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GUALTIERI: They attempted to reach the occupants and rescue them, but because of the thick, muddy water, they were unable to do so.
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ROSARIO: But in this dash cam video, it only shows officers standing near the pond watching the girls` car sink.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: They are done. They are 6-7 dude.
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GUALTIERI: All three of these girls have criminal histories. So, between these three teens, they were arrested seven times in the last year just for
grand theft auto.
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WILL ANDERSON, LAWYER OF THE THREE TEENAGERS WHO DIED: In my opinion, this has been a rush to judgment. In my opinion this has been a smear campaign.
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PINSKY: Joining us AnneElise Goetz, Attorney; Judge Kevin Ross, former L.A. County Prosecutor, host of "America`s Court with Judge Ross." Cheryl
Dorsey, Sergeant, LAPD retired, author of "Creation of a Manifesto: Black & Blue" and Randy Sutton, retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Lieutenant,
host of "Police Radio on America Out Loud."
And, on the phone, I have Sheriff Bob Gualtieri from Pinellas County, Florida. Now, Sheriff, I want to go right to you. People have criticized
you, officers for not doing enough to try to save these teens. What do you say to that?
BOB GUALTIERI, PINELLAS COUNTY FLORIDA SHERRIFF (via phone): Certainly, untrue. The deputies -- when that car went into the pond, they took off
their clothes, took off their gun belts, uniforms and went in. Unfortunately, the mud was so thick.
And, it was not really a pond, it was more of a swamp. And, they got tangled up and it was not safe for them to proceed. So, they actually went
in and tried to rescue those girls and those are the facts. No question about it.
PINSKY: Sheriff, how many officers responded?
GUALTIERI: Well, there was probably -- I mean all said and done because there was a perimeter set there, so there was probably 10 or 12 around the
pond on the perimeter. Probably, around that number.
PINSKY: Cheryl, does this jibe with what you are thinking?
CHERYL DORSEY, LAPD (RET.): Well, you know, when I see the one officer, he does not appeared to be wet or he does not appeared to be covered in any of
the debris that was on that vehicle, so I am not really sure what he means by saying they attempted to rescue the women. Standing on the sideline and
saying, "Yes, it is going down. Yes, they are in trouble," does not really sound like help to me.
PINSKY: Is there other dash cam, sheriff, that we can look at that helps us understand what other officers were doing to respond?
GUALTIERI: Yes. I do not know how she can say that, because that is just nonsense, because you have one dash cam, only one out of all of them that
are there. And, that car was not positioned to where the deputies went in. They absolutely went in.
And, in fact, if you look at all the videos that were made available publicly to the people, you will see deputies that were caught on dash cam
with their clothes off, with their shirt off, with their gun belts off walking around afterwards.
So, one is the reports reflect it. The deputies did it. I am telling you, they did it and I know they did. And, they wrote reports to that effect.
Just because one dash cam view does not show it, to say that, that proves that they did not go in is really irresponsible.
PINSKY: Now, all three had extensive criminal histories. AnneElise, what about the fact that the sheriff brought up the criminal history in these
press conferences?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: The conversation we are having now is the conversation that should happen. This is what the officers did. This is
how they responded. This is why it is appropriate. When you fold in the criminal history of the girls, suddenly you start asking, "Why are we
talking about that? Why is it an important factor?"
I heard a quote that these are not good kids. Whether they are good kids or they are bad kids does not change the officers` response to the
situation. And, I have heard the girls` attorneys say, it is looking like a smear campaign.
And, while I think that the officers` actions were probably appropriate, when you have that kind of rhetoric coming from press conferences, it does
sound like, "Why are you attacking the character of these kids?" That is what they are. They are kids.
PINSKY: Let me get a judge to adjudicate here. Judge Kevin, what do you think here? I mean, look, I do not think cops go slow motion when
somebody`s life is at issue. I just do not think -- I do not believe that.
JUDGE KEVIN ROSS, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: See, the problem is we are looking at one bit of evidence, which is the information that we have
all seen. Because looking at it, when I saw it this morning, the milk in my cereal started to curdle. Because I was like, "What is going on?" Why
are not there more --
[19:05:06] PINSKY: Why are not people jumping in all over the place? --
JUDGE ROSS: Immediately.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, by the way, we are in Florida, there is alligators. There is huge --
JUDGE ROSS: Of course.
PINSKY: We do not know what is in there, right? It is night time. We do not know what they are up against, right? But, still you look at that, you
go, "Oh, man, these guys are first responders. Get in there."
JUDGE ROSS: Something in the gumball was not fresh when you see it from that angle.
PINSKY: Yes.
JUDGE ROSS: Part of it is, though, when you start telling me, "We got proof of the officer clothing, showing the mud. We have other angles."
Give me that information, because right now if you just release that one bit, us as the jury of public opinion, we are not really feeling that.
PINSKY: Something wrong with the gumbo?
(LAUGHING)
JUDGE ROSS: Well, it is not fresh in the gumbo.
PINSKY: Randy, something is not fresh in the gumbo according to the judge. Do you agree with him?
RANDY SUTTON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN PD, RETIRED: not at all. First of all, the fact that there were three girls killed is a tragedy.
JUDGE ROSS: Yes.
SUTTON: But let us have a little reality check here. Those police officers who responded, there is nothing that says they have to go into
that pond and risk their own lives. You see, police officers have to look at the risk and see, "Is it possible? Will I survive this?"
And, to tell you the truth, to go into -- that car was 60 yards into the pond. To go in and try and pull them out of that car, that was suicide.
That is not even a risk worth taking.
PINSKY: And, yet, sheriff, some of your officers did feel that was a risk worth taking, and that to me is consistent with what I expect from police
officers.
GUALTIERI: They did, and I would encourage everybody -- You know, here in Florida, all of this is now -- is still technically under the law exempt
from the public record. I did not take that approach. I released everything. And, I encouraged -- and, somebody just mentioned about,
"Well, if you have it, release it."
We did. All that video I talked about, about showing the deputies out of their clothes with no shirts on and all that and covered, all of that has
been released. I encourage everybody to look at all of it, not just snippets of it, because it has been released to everybody.
PINSKY: AnneElise?
GOETZ: I would say, you know, Randy and the Sheriff, I agree with both of you, that from the legal prospective all we should be talking about is,
"No, they are not obligated to put their own life in danger. They are not obligated to run into a car that is on fire and pull someone out.
They are not obligated to run into a situation where their life is in danger," but that should be the storyline. That should be what we are
talking about. There is no need to fold in the character of these kids.
PINSKY: That caught me a little strange too, sheriff. Why begin talking about their excessive auto theft problems at the press conference, and race
was brought up, too? I really think that opens the door to the conversations you did not want to have.
GUALTIERI: Well, that hard conversation needs to be had in this county, and it was the time to bring it up, because we are having an epidemic. We
had 2,800 auto thefts in this county last year, 1,500 of them came out of the city of St. Petersburg. It is an extraordinary number, an excessive
number.
And when you point to the hard facts, the numbers, is these auto thefts are predominantly occurring by one group of kids in one area of the county.
And, something needs to change, and we needed to get the public dialogue going on that, because we have got to make a difference.
JUDGE ROSS: I have got to jump in. With all due respect, that is apples and broccoli. The fact that you have three people that died is separate
and apart from what you found out about them later on.
Now, here is what I know is the case. What I know to be true, having been a prosecutor, having been a judge is that this was in response to the flak
you guys were getting from not doing enough.
And, I get it. I get as law enforcement you guys get beat up on. You are like, "Wait a minute, let us give it perspective here." You do not just
put Harriet Tubman on a $20 Bill and say, "Why is the white guy being taken off?"
You learned that Andrew Jackson was a slave owner who engaged in genocide and Harriet Tubman was an abolitionist who was trying to free 70 people.
So, now, I have context. But when you say, our officer did not do enough, I get that.
As an officer, you go, "Well, you have to keep in mind who we are dealing with." And, I think that is what happened. This is just unfortunate that
three lives had been lost and they were young people that could have been saved.
PINSKY: And, Sherriff, I will have you respond to that in just a second. Hold on. And, Randy, you too, hold on, I have to go to break. But, I have
noticed that when the sheriff brings up the issue of race and other criminal activity, my hungry attorney friend over here starts sharpening
her claws.
It opens them to liability. Why go down the path there. Close this one. Talk about it elsewhere. Next, the lead attorney representing the girls`
family is here. We will see what she has to say about all this when we come back. Stay with us.
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[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ROSARIO (voice-over): Newly released dash cam video shows Pinellas County Deputies following three teenagers to their death.
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(19:14:00) GUALTIERI: The vehicle left the roadway and without braking, driver went about 30-35 miles an hour, entered into a pond. The vehicle
became submerged in the water. The doors were closed and the windows in the vehicle were up.
The vehicle drifted about 20 yards into the pond and was fully submerged within about five minutes. Unfortunately, found deceased in the car were
two 15-year-olds and one 16-year-old black female.
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PINSKY: Three teenage girls are dead tonight. Police say their stolen car crashed into a pond. All of it captured on dash cam. Critics say the
officers did not do enough to save these girls. The sheriff says his deputies did everything they could, including jumping into the pond,
throwing their clothing off, risking their life.
I am back with AnneElise, Judge Ross, Cheryl, Randy and Sherriff Bob Gualtieri. On the phone, I have Michelle Whitfield. She is the lead
attorney representing families of the deceased teens.
[19:15:00] Michelle, do you think the Sherriff was doing -- what do you think the sheriff was doing in bringing up the behavior, the previous
history and criminal activity of your clients?
MICHELLE WHITFIELD, LEAD ATTORNEY FOR TEEN`S FAMILY: He was politicizing it. The sheriff just said it just now. He said that there is an epidemic.
In his press conference, the conference that he had right after the girls died, in subsequent press conferences, what he has brought up is his task
force.
He would like to have his task force back to combat the juvenile auto theft crime. And, even in the paper about a week after the fact, there was a
whole article about the reemergence of the task force.
So, in my mind, all I can view is that he was thinking that he was politicizing the issue and that he was using these girls` criminal history
to take away from the fact that they did nothing to go in and save these girls.
From the video that has been released to me, and let me be clear, Drew, not all the video has been released to me. I think that the sheriff is trying
to give an appearance of transparency, but not all the video has been released.
PINSKY: Sherriff -- I am going to give the sheriff a chance to respond to that. Sheriff, will you respond?
GUALTIERI: Drew, you know, all the video has been released. There is no more video. The facts speak for themselves. You know, it is a big
problem. This past Friday night, we had another one, five kids, 13, 14 and 15-year-olds.
And, they were found in a stolen car. And, in the last 18 months, between of them, Drew, they have been arrested 63 times here in Pinellas County.
We have a problem and I do not want to see one more kid die. I do not want to see these girls` death in vain.
I want to change and I want things to change. I want the kids to change and the community to know we have a problem. And, that is why we need to
get the message out that this needs to stop here in this county.
PINSKY: Cheryl, how can we correlate with the Sherriff`s intent here, right? He wants his community to heal and get better. He has got a big
problem on his hands. I think you are right, technically, people like AnneElise may attack him if he uses this opportunity to go -- no?
DORSEY: No. I agree.
PINSKY: Yes, to go after these issues. But, he has a huge problem on his hands and wants things to get better. Why are we going after the guy who
is trying to heal his community?
DORSEY: Well, here is the thing. I cannot argue the intent of the officers or the intent of what the sheriff meant in his press release, but
what I can tell you is it was very off putting. Because all I heard was what sounded to me like an attempt to smear these young ladies.
I heard over and over for this extensive press conference that there were black people, that these are black kids, that these are the only ones who
steal cars. And, so, I am left to believe that maybe that is what the officers here in roll call.
Because I have said in many roll calls where briefings are presented and an officer may then go out into the field and say, we are chasing another
stolen car, it is got to be black people and so when that stolen car runs into the mud or a pond, we may not do everything we can because it is black
people.
PINSKY: Randy, hold on, I will give you a chance. But, Randy, I cannot believe that our first responders, our police who get beat up all the time
these days, are not going full speed when there is somebody`s life in danger. I cannot believe that does not happen. Go ahead, Randy.
SUTTON: No. The police did everything that they could have done and should have done. To go further into what they were doing, into that pond,
would have been suicide.
I will tell you what is really going on with Ms. Whitfield is she is setting the stage for another frivolous lawsuit against the police, who did
absolutely nothing wrong. And, what happened here is a terrible tragedy. It was not the fault of a police. They did everything they should do,
everything they could do.
PINSKY: And, yet -- hold on. AnneElise, you see the opportunity there, too.
GOETZ: I am laughing because you, guys, are making the case for her. Stop getting up on the media podium and talking about race then. I mean stop
talking about these other kid, the other criminal incidents. You are doing it to yourself.
PINSKY: So, in other words, by bringing in his big picture problem, which he is preoccupied with and wants to get better, and that is we want him to
make it better, by bringing that into this case is opening himself to liability.
GOETZ: To voice the two principles. You have a problem in your county, you should deal with it. You should address it. Go to the school, talk to
the schools. Do not talk about it at a press conference, where three kids died.
PINSKY: I got a judge here, help me. Help me. It was only the evidence. That is all we got here.
JUDGE ROSS: I am taking this all in, because so much of it really comes down to, you have got these kids. They are out until 4:00 a.m. in the
morning. March 31st was a Thursday. So, maybe it was spring break, so they are out --
PINSKY: Hang on, Judge. Cheryl, did not you teach me, nothing good happens after 1:00 a.m.?
DORSEY: Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. So, maybe we can start with that. For everybody in that county and every county, get your kids in before 1:00 a.m.
JUDGE ROSS: And, we are talking about two 15 and 16-year-olds. I never heard anything about that they have a driver`s license, where they able to
drive?
PINSKY: Is that important?
JUDGE ROSS: Well, the reason why -- because again it gives me perspective in terms of what is going on in that particular community that would
warrant law enforcement saying, "I got to talk about race. I got to talk about these young people."
Because then at least I have a little bit of empathy. But, when I see a video and the officers are like, "Yes, I think it really go down." And,
they seemed very cavalier and nonchalant about it, it sense the wrong message especially in this --
[19:20:08] PINSKY: Sherriff last appeal for the judge here, Judge Ross. Appeal to him on what you are dealing with there.
GUALTIERI: Well, we are just dealing a monumental problem. You know, the deputies were not standing around. There was one deputy that was standing
there that was captured on that video. It does not tell the whole story and that is the problem with videos in one angle.
We are dealing with a problem of great magnitude. We do not want to see any other kids hurt or killed. We do not want them stealing cars. We do
not want them out at 4:00 in the morning. We do not want them running from the police and we certainly do not want them run into the ponds and
drowning.
PINSKY: What about what Cheryl said. Sherriff, what about the race issue that Cheryl brought up? What about that?
GALTIERI: Well, the race issue is, the facts are the facts. You know, in order to solve a problem, you got to identify a problem. You have to know
where it is coming from. And, the facts of the facts is, is that we have a problem in this county with predominantly black juveniles, not all but
predominantly.
The numbers speak to that, the numbers are black and white, if you will. They are hard and pressed, because that is where the problem is emanating
from. We have a community problem.
PINSKY: But, it is a community problem. Why separate the members into different colors? We have certain people who can identify as such, they
are part of our problem.
GUALTIERI: It is coming from an area in the county is where it is coming from.
PINSKY: Yes. I understand, but it is everybody is problem, is it not?
DORSEY: It sounds like cold speak. It sounds like double talk. Because just like these attorneys preparing for a court case, so is the police
department. And, I understand that their obligation --
PINSKY: Well, they have to.
DORSEY: -- is to mitigate and minimize that bad behavior --
PINSKY: Yes.
DORSEY: -- or the lack of behavior on the part of these officers. Because he, too, understands that a lawsuit is coming.
PINSKY: OK. Michelle, I got like 15 to 20 seconds, please wrap this up for me.
WHITFIELD: Well, I mean there is so much to wrap up.
PINSKY: I know.
WHITFIELD: There are these things that are out there with complete inconsistencies in the Sherriff`s story. Number one, I looked into all of
the radio transmission. Let me be clear, if anybody was going into the water, do not you think I would have heard on that radio transmission,
"Hey, I am going in. Hey, I am going to save these girls." None of that information was there.
And, the sheriff has made this a race issue. I am making this a human issue. (INAUDIBLE) The Sherriff got up there and unites three black
girls. And, immediately after talking about their deaths, had their mug shots -- did not even get pictures from their mothers, had their mug shot
up and then lifted their criminal records.
And, one of the girls that I represent, her family had no criminal record. She was charged -- she was arrested and actually was not charged. And,
there were no files, but the Sherriff did not say that.
PINSKY: Michelle, interesting. We got to wrap this up. I appreciate all of your participation in this. I am going to say it again. I do not ever
see police go slow speed when somebody`s life is in danger. I just do not see it. I have never seen that.
It may happen, I have never seen that. But, that community has a big problem. We all agree with that. And, I hope they take of it. I hope
they take care of it. I hope they see it as a community problem not an "Us-Them Problem."
Next up, a 20-year-old student alleges rape. The university says she violated school`s honor code, so they are investigating her. Stay with us.
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[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADI BARNEY, BYU STUDEN/RAPE SURVIVOR: I felt re-victimized. I felt like I was being treated like the perpetrator.
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CHRISTINA FLORES, 2NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Madi says she was raped at her off- campus apartment and reported to Provo police. But a month later, she was shocked when a BYU investigator called her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNEY: She did not offer any support. She only said, "You know, we need to talk about the honor code. It looks like you violated it."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FLORES: Women complained the honor code hurts rape victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIANA GARRIDO, BYU STUDENT AND A CHILD RAPE SURVIVOR: People expressed that it creates fear, that they are afraid of coming forward about their
assaults because they do not know how that will affect their standing academically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNEY: When something like the honor code comes into play and when you are aware of that like the littlest details of your rape can be blamed on
you, it makes it really hard to find the courage to report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Very well said. A Brigham Young University student says the school is punishing her because she had been raped. Madi Barney agreed to
be identified for this story, and she says after reporting the rape to police, the university then accused her of having violated its honor code.
Back with AnneElise, Judge Ross, joining us Cheryl Hunter, she herself a trauma recovering expert and a survivor. Take a look at just part of the
BYU Honor Code that cover the student apartment. It says, quote, "Visitors of the opposite sex are permitted in the living rooms and kitchens but not
in the bedrooms and off-campus living units."
Madi, the victim, says she allowed this man who eventually raped her into her living room, but she was assaulted in her bedroom against her will.
Now, Madi`s lawyer has advised her not to cooperate with the off-site investigation. And, they have not yet even told her, which part of the
honor code she is accused of have been violated.
Cheryl, I am breathless with this thing. I mean -- so we have an environment, without getting into the weeds of this case, she is exposing
an environment where, if you are the victim of coercive sexual encounter where it starts in the living room, you are guilty for letting the guy into
your bedroom.
Because if you let him in, even though he might have had a knife or something or have been coercive in some way, and if he rapes you, now, you
really violated the honor code, because "Damn you, you did not wait until you were married."
CHERYL HUNTER, TRAUMA RECOVERY EXPERT, SURVIVOR: You have got no honor, right?
PINSKY: You got no honor. You got no honor. It is just bizarre. It is almost unthinkable in this day and age. And, can you imagine, the
university -- the headline these days is rape culture on campus, right? That is what people talk about.
Now, we can argue whether that exist or not. The point is that is a bone of contention. In this school, if you have been raped, you cannot speak up
because you violated the honor code. You cannot go to school there anymore.
[19:30:00] HUNTER: And, would not it requires for a girl to speak up, anyway? The DOJ says that they estimate that only 12 percent of college
students who are raped come forth. So, it is this huge effort to come forth in the first place. And, that she does, and this is what happens.
PINSKY: And, what is the primary emotion that you are fighting that keeps you from coming out?
HUNTER: I mean I can speak in my own case.
PINSKY: Yes, please.
HUNTER: Shame.
PINSKY: Shame. OK. So, it is shame. That is 100 percent the most common symptom that keeps people from talking about it. They feel somewhat to
blame for it, which is an irrational fear. Now, you have this weird shame, this toxic shame and now you go to school and they shame you.
HUNTER: And, they shame you and they put it in your face and make it public and then make it a violation. You have committed a violation. I
read something that the university released that they talked about sexual misconduct and other violations, like as if you have been perpetrated
against, and that is a violation to the code of conduct. It is unthinkable.
PINSKY: AnneElise, it reminds me of something Abraham Lincoln said. He said, "It is like being held up at gunpoint on a roadside robbery," and the
guy is saying "Give me your wallet or you should be a murderer." That is what we are dealing with here. So, please, can we defend Cheryl and the
woman that was -- regardless of the circumstance, the setup here is bad.
GOETZ: Of course. It silences victims and it emboldens criminals, because they have lost one more checking accountability. These girls cannot come
forward, because not only -- I am sure Cheryl can speak to this, but does your life feel like it is ruined, you are about to get kicked out of
school, too. And, I mean, the criminal --
PINSKY: Shame. I need the big shame bell from "Game of Thrones." "Shame, shame!" Why do not you, guys, adopt that? That would be a nice add to
your culture there. On the phone, I have Erin Alberty. She is a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune. Now, I guess, Erin, there are other cases you
are investigating, is that true?
ERIN ALBERTY, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE REPORTER: Yes, we have printed stories, in addition to madi. There are three other women who said they were
investigated by the school`s honor code office as a result of reporting sexual assaults against them, but I have also spoken to several others who
have made similar reports, including some men.
PINSKY: Explain men that were sexually assaulted?
ALBERTY: Yes. Well, the honor code at BYU also prohibits any kind of homosexual activity, so these were some men who were raped by other men in
a homosexual relationship or outside of one.
PINSKY: Have you been -- as part of your investigation, have you addressed the school and asked them what their response is, or are they trying to
change this culture?
ALBERTY: We have. I have not been granted an interview by anybody at the school, except for the lieutenant at the police department, the campus
police department. I mean, it is not just a security team. It is an actual law enforcement agency. And, he has spoken with us.
PINSKY: And, how about this report that we are hearing. It is sort of rumor now, that someone was associated with the alleged rapist in law
enforcement that then turned over the story to the school. Is there any validity on that?
ALBERTY": Well, yes. That is definitely not a rumor. I mean, everyone has all sides of this have acknowledged that a sheriff`s deputy, a Utah
County Sheriff`s Deputy, who was an acquaintance of the suspect in madi`s case took -- got ahold of her police file, the report, including the
medical exam reports from her code R exam that you get after you report a sexual assault --
PINSKY: Yes.
ALBERTY: And took that to BYU`s honor code. Now, the man and the suspect in the rape case were both charged with witness retaliation. However, the
county attorney asked the judge to dismiss the case. The prosecutor who was over the case said he did not know why, but the county attorney has
said that -- I am sorry.
PINSKY: Hold on. Erin, stand by. I have a judge here.
ALBERTY: Sure.
PINSKY: He needs to sort through this. We have got one minute. Tell me.
JUDGE ROSS: I am just trying to understand, why is the attorney saying they are not going to proceed with the officer who violated the victim`s
privacy by turning her information over to a second source, which is the school and this same officer has a relationship with the alleged rapist?
PINSKY: Erin.
JUDGE ROSS: There is something that is fuzzy there.
PINSKY: A lot fuzzy. Erin, please tell us.
ALBERTY: Well, the county attorney said that he had access to an internal affairs investigation from the sheriff`s department for which the deputy
works. And, the sheriff has said that he claimed that he was trying to help female athletes by giving over this file.
PINSKY: What?
ALBERTY: Now, Madi is not an athlete --
PINSKY: It is bizarre.
ALBERTY: And it is not clear what --
JUDGE ROSS: And, he has a relationship with the alleged rapist. He is so entangled and enmeshed, why would he even be involved?
PINSKY: We have to drop it for a second here. Erin, thank you.
[19:35:00] Next, BYU`s honor code. What do we think about it? Should it be modified? How can this be changed and still preserve the spirit of
their culture that they want to maintain? We will hear from the university president when we come back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNEY: Really, like lived with the fear that BYU was going to do something to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLORES: BYU student Madi Barney says she is angry at the way the school treated her when they found out she was raped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNEY: She did not offer any support. She only said, "You know, we need to talk about the honor code. It looks like you violated it."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:40:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Do you think in some ways that maybe women or men may decide, you know what, I do not want to go through that
and they may not report?
CARRI JENKINS, BYU COMMUNICATIONS: That is certainly never our intent. The well-being and safety of our students is our top priority, but those
are certainly concerns that we are listening to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARNEY: It would be my dream, you know, to see them take a step back and kind of step off their moral high horse and kind of say, "You know what?
We have messed up a little bit."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Listen, without even admitting guilt, without changing their morality, if they would just live by that credo -- I believe that was the
president of the college, was it not there or somebody who is speaking on behalf of the college, saying that the well-being of their students is our
first priority, then create modern policies that protect that. Because what is in place now is not what you say your priority is.
This woman claims she was raped by a 39-year-old man in her off-campus apartment. The alleged rapist has been criminally charged, but the
university is focused on the student saying she violated the school`s honor code. Back with Cheryl and AnneElise and Judge Ross. Judge Ross, you were
saying that the circumstance of presumed innocence -- did I say your name wrong?
JUDGE ROSS: No, you were right.
PINSKY: Presumed innocence and presumed guilt is sort of --
JUDGE ROSS: The defendant in this case is being charged with rape. He starts with a presumption of innocence, and oftentimes even when I had
juries before, I said, how many of you, if you had to say he was guilty right now, would you say guilty?
And, you will have people raise their hands. And, I said, "OK, we are off to a bad start," because you have not heard the evidence. You have not
heard any testimony. You have not seen any --
PINSKY: Presumed innocence.
JUDGE ROSS: So, you will start with a presumption of innocence.
PINSKY: Yes.
JUDGE ROSS: In BYU`s case, this woman is being presumed to have violated the honor code, and so it is backwards. And, if anything, let the
investigation and the arrest and the trial go through, and then once you find the verdict there, then deal with her. But right now she needs
support. She needs to take a couple classes from a break --
PINSKY: But, that is the point. I am going to play you what the president suggests in just a second. But, in that little piece coming in, she says,
her number one priority is the well-being of the student.
Here is a student whose well-being is not being attended to. I am looking at it. I am a physician. I am telling you, you are doing wrong by this
kid. So, that is your number one priority? Here is now the president of BYU University. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN J. WORTHEN, BYU PRESIDENT: Victims of sexual assault. They have been through a traumatic experience. They are vulnerable. They are
looking for help, and we ought to provide that. The victim of sexual assault is never responsible for the sexual assault. You are not at fault.
And, then I would say, come in and get the help that can be provided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So -- OK, that is the president. The previous woman was somebody representing the college, so he did not say whether or not what his
priority was. In fact, I could not tell what he was saying.
GOETZ: He is saying, "Come in, we are going to give you help. It is not your fault," except, then, you know, honor code is going to call you and
say, "We have got to investigate this. So, while that piece may not be your fault, the actual rape, the fact you let somebody into your bedroom,
well that is your fault and guess what you will probably get kicked out of school now." It is insane. How many more barriers do we put up for women
reporting sexual crime?
PINSKY: But, we heard also from the reporter, men, too, in this case. Men, it is not just women. It is males and females. I feel like this is -
- I am sitting next to you and trying to sort of tune in to what you are experiencing. I am feeling this is actually re-traumatizing to you. That
this is whole experience --
HUNTER: To me personally?
PINSKY: To you, yes.
HUNTER: The entire rape culture is traumatizing in a way. I mean, I feel like it is my duty to give a face to rape victims. Because, like I said
earlier, the DOJ says -- Department of Justice says only 12 percent of college students come forth. And, in all the studies done on rape, they
say that it is 85 percent of people that experience rape, it is under 25. So, we are talking about college students.
PINSKY: So, as somebody who has been the object of this kind of violent crime, and somebody who wants to advocate on behalf of people that are in
situations like this, women and men, what do you suggest?
HUNTER: I suggest that we stop making the victims guilty until proven innocent, that we actually, culturally, societally start relating to this
as our problem. If one in five women are victims of sexual assault, and they say up to one in seven men, it is not somebody else`s problem. This
is our problem. What do we do about this?
PINSKY: We are having a reaction. I told you we were having a reaction over this. Listen, she is absolutely right and there are solutions. You
just need to consult with people that work in this area, and there is ways to approach it.
[19:45:00] There is systematic ways to deal with this. Do not try to rely on some set of principles -- let us not say principles -- ways of managing
this. There is a reason why we do the way we do it today because it is better or worse. Let us apply those principles.
Next up, a Florida judge who accused of being blitzed on the bench. Her critics say it is time to give up the gavel. Should she? That controversy
is up next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACQUELINE SCHWARTZ, FLORIDA JUDGE: I want to speak with the (EXPLETIVE WORD) owner. You are a (EXPLETIVE WORD) idiot. You do not know who I am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Not the ranting of a Hollywood A-lister but a biting words of a Florida judge who blasted a waiter for not serving her
alcohol. That is according to the waiter and the state investigative report.
[19:50:00] They say Judge Jacqueline Schwartz was slurring and spilling wine on herself and that she referred to the responding officers as pigs.
Days later, she appeared impaired in court. She has since been suspended.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: She has been suspended with pay, of course. I am back with AnneElise, Judge Ross and joining me Darren Kavinoky, Attorney. Judge
Ross, do judges have more difficulty with psychiatric and medical problems that affect their functioning perhaps more often than we like to think?
JUDGE ROSS: There is a host of issues that people deal with. One of the things --
PINSKY: Judges. Judges.
JUDGE ROSS: Well, I am saying people who are on the bench.
PINSKY: There you go.
JUDGE ROSS: This judge, Judge Schwartz, I can empathize with her because about 11 years ago I was removed from the bench as a judge. And, one of
the reasons involved me doing a pilot for a court show, and then ironically I end up getting a court show. For me, the experience was horrible because
I had been a prosecutor, I had been a judge, now I am sitting as an accused person before the California Commission --
PINSKY: Accused of what?
JUDGE ROSS: I have been accused of doing a T.V. pilot while I was still a judge.
PINSKY: So, what?
JUDGE ROSS: Well, here in California, like a Judge Judy, she was from New York. She could do a pilot while still being a judge. In California,
judges cannot. The reason that I make it a point to say that is because I have since met other judges who have found themselves either removed or
dealing with circumstances.
One judge was being abused by her husband. And, here she is a judge meriting out punishment and yet she starts gambling. Her problem was she
started taking money from the attorneys.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
JUDGE ROSS: She was removed as a judge and she had to spend time in custody.
PINSKY: OK.
JUDGE ROSS: What that all tells me about this woman is that, clearly, she has addiction issues.
PINSKY: Yes.
JUDGE ROSS: Clearly, telling her, you are getting ready to lose this job.
PINSKY: All her life. I mean, I feel -- I actually, as an addictionologist, as a physician, feel terribly sorry for this woman. I
hear this and my heart breaks. I get angry and frustrated as we all would. Darren, I am sure you had good excuses when you are in your disease.
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Yes! Oh my God, I got a million of them.
PINSKY: What would you say? "Oh, I just took some medication the doctor gave me," is it much the way this judge is saying?
KAVINOKY: By the way, before we go rushing to judgment about what it was that is going on here, there was a statement that came out that her
position is that she had taken prescribed medication that maybe not taken as prescribed.
PINSKY: No. I have no doubt she is taking prescribed medication. I have no doubt that is the part of the problem. That is almost always these days
a part of the problem when people have impairments around substances.
JUDGE ROSS: And combining it with alcohol, right?
PINSKY: Maybe, maybe not, but I am saying because you have something prescribed by a doctor does --
KAVINOKY: Does not make you OK.
PINSKY: -- not mean anything.
KAVINOKY: But how many times have we seen people report taking an Ambien and then waking up in the Burger King drive-through or something like that.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: During the tirade, witnesses said she seen impaired in the courthouse. Her lawyers, as we have explained several times said she was
under the influence of a new prescription.
I do not know how many times I could say that, that is not an issue. That is not something relevant at all here. What I am going to do is go to
break. I want to keep this conversation going. We will be right back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with AnneElise, Judge Ross and Darren. Judge in trouble. She has been in trouble before. She was scolded for swearing at
a convenience store owner who had her opponent`s campaign sign on display. Also, she asked the bailiff to erase her notes when copies of a court
document were requested by a lawyer.
So, AnneElise, to me, to my humble clinical opinion, there is impairment her that she should be -- This woman, to protect her should be brought in,
preferably by her professional society evaluated and given the care she needs. But, in the meantime, let us say you presented a case in front of
her, how you going to feel?
GOETZ: Yes. That is great Dr. Drew. And, she does have problems that should be fixed. But, every single person that has been in front of her is
now thinking, "Was she drunk when I was arguing?" "When she decided my case were she even present? Was she paying attention?
Those notes, is she doodling? We have to believe that the judge is part of the system. And, with her, you are going to have appeals coming up. What,
this is going to cost people. It is not just her having addiction.
PINSKY: People or us.
KAVINOKY: Well, us, taxpayers.
GOETZ: People are sitting in jail right now thinking, "That is my judge."
PINSKY: Let me show you a video of the judge being reprimanded by the state`s Supreme Court for the two incidents in 2014. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORGE LABARGA, CHIEF JUSTICE: When you curse a resident of this state, using such a language, that resident and the public at large correctly
question the soundness of your judgment. Judge Schwartz , this court is increasingly facing cases such as yours where we are rejecting the
recommended discipline in favor of harsher penalties. We view this as the only way we can assure the public that misconduct, such as yours, will be
taken very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Darren, you and I both believe that this woman needs treatment, but you are nodding your head vigorously that harsh consequences
are appropriate?
KAVINOKY: Well, ultimately, it comes down to integrity in the system. And, what we just heard in that piece is that this is more than just her
behaving badly on a particular occasion. This is really about the public trust. All of us really need to have --
PINSKY: Guys, all three of you, why do not you attorneys take care of one another? You know well in this committee --
KAVINOKY: Well, we do a terrible job of that.
PINSKY: Terrible job. You have higher alcoholism than the average population.
JUDGE ROSS: It is very stressful.
PINSKY: I understand. So, take care -- bring people in to treatment. Force them into taking care of themselves.
JUDGE ROSS: We are not any different from medical professional. We have medical professionals doing the same thing.
PINSKY: Yes. But, we have wellness committees that step in right away at the slightest hint of trouble. We have to wrap it up. I am just saying.
I am advising you to develop what we call wellness committees.
That if somebody is behaving like this, you bring them in, they cannot work until the wellness committee says they can. DVR the show then you can
watch us anytime. Panel great job. Thank you all for watching. Nancy Grace is up next.
[20:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)
END
