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Dr. Drew
Man Accused Of Dismembering Mom Pleads Not Guilty; Why Don`t We Know How Prince Died?; Mother Suing CPS After Father Kills Five Children; New Clues About Teens Who Vanished at Sea; Boys` Families Battle Over Cell Phone. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 27, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: The man charged with killing and dismembering a Seattle mom just appeared in court. John Charlton pleaded
not guilty to murder. Ingrid Lyne`s head was found in a recycling bin two weeks ago. Other body parts have been found since. Charlton remains in
jail on $5 million bond. The judge increased the amount from 2 million. That happened today. We will be following this story closely.
Now, the latest on Prince. Why don`t we know what caused his death? Why is it taking so long? Watch as reporters confront the people who ought to
have answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any sign of a drug or prescription drug overdose found at the scene?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no information at this time in regard to exactly what they`re talking about as part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Couldn`t a lot of the questions around medication be cleared up by talking to his doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s going to be part of the investigation. We`ll certainly have contact with any medical personnel that he`s had contact
with.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: So again, have you talked to his doctor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation is 29 hours old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we say that we`re going to be doing a complete exam, that not only includes the present state of the body that is brought
to us, it will include his medical history, his social history, and his family`s medical history as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me is Diana Aizman, criminal defense attorney, Erica Renee Davis, entertainment journalist, host of "The Morning Score", and Andrew
Gouche, former bassist for Prince and New Power Generation. Via Skype, I have Dr. Joy Carter, medical examiner, chief forensic pathologist, Marion
County, Indiana. Erica, let me ask you this. Is all media scrutiny, we see them hammering the sheriffs there and the representatives -- is all
this media action making the medical examiner`s job more difficult?
ERICA RENEE DAVIS, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Not at all, because they have a job to do, and honestly, Prince lived his life so fiercely privately, and
of course, as fans, we want now, here and now. We want the word to come out immediately. We live in a TMZ culture, where if it doesn`t happen
within 10 seconds, 10 minutes, we`re very bored. I really think they respect his privacy, they respect his family, they respect his legacy, so I
do not think the media will force the examiners to speed up at all.
PINSKY: So all that hammering we were -- that was just doing their job? They weren`t really inspecting anything?
DAVIS: I think as a journalist, obviously, you want to think that your voice can affect an examiner or a coroner to move a little bit quicker, a
little bit faster, but ultimately it`s not going to happen. Unfortunately, it`s just not going to happen in this case for Prince.
PINSKY: Let me ask the medical examiner. Dr. Carter, would all that hammering make your job more difficult?
DOCTOR JOY CARTER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It does make your job more difficult because you have a lot of questions, you have to stop your work and try to
answer the questions, but you do have to wait for the facts to come out. You have people speculating, things swirling in the media, but we have to
be thorough, it takes time to do toxicology testing.
PINSKY: Is there any way to speed up the toxicology? This is the thing that people seem so confused about. We`re talking about chemistry. We`re
talking about doing careful analysis. Is there a faster way to do this?
CARTER: People are used to that TV version, and that`s not the way it is in real life. Forensically, you have to qualify or identify the specimen,
see what`s in the system, then you have to quantify. So it does take time, anywhere from two to six weeks depending on what they find, if they find
anything at all in his system, as well as compare what they found at the autopsy in the organs.
PINSKY: Now Dr. Carter, the medical examiner`s representative referred to a social history, and for me, when I`m doing a history and physical, we get
to the S.H., the social history piece, you`re looking at tobacco use, alcohol use, substance use, sexual behaviors -- is that what she`s talking
about, same thing for you guys?
CARTER: Yes, we`re looking at whatever lifestyle information we have, particularly the previous 72 hours.
PINSKY: Andrew, when you were around Prince, any behaviors that were of health risk that would make him less healthy? I heard he was fastidious
about his health.
ANDREW GOUCHE, MUSICIAN: Absolutely not. Prince -- being around Prince made everybody else want to be healthy because that was the example that he
set all the time. For instance, he was a hardcore vegan, and we were not even allowed to eat meat inside of the building. There is a shopping
center near Paisley Park where we used to go to subway, and outside of Paisley Park, their patio table and chairs, we had to eat it outside and
throw it away outside. He didn`t even want to smell it. I`m a big guy. I was substantially bigger when I first got there, but being around him --
and he`s only just under a year older than me, and I`m looking at this guy and I`m like, he`s doing what he`s doing, so he made me start eating
better, not even by telling me, but his example made me want to do better.
[19:05:14] PINSKY: And Andrew, you were living and working with Prince. This must have been so shocking to you. What do you think happened?
GOUCHE: You know, initially when I first got the call, it wasn`t even a call on my phone. I started getting text messages and the first one I saw,
I just ignored it. I was like, come on. Because you see so much stuff, and I was like, no way. And then literally my phone started sounding like
it had a motor on it, and it just started going to all these people, and when I went online and looked and I saw it, it just didn`t seem real. My
first thing in my mind was, somebody did something to him.
DAVIS: I was going to jump in on that. Speaking about the TMZ society, the here and now, we want the here and now, I actually was -- I got alerts
too on my phone from close friends who know Prince, who`ve had close associations with him, and the first news was, oh, there`s a death at
Paisley Park, and they didn`t -- the news agencies didn`t report immediately that it was Prince, so you think, oh, maybe it`s a security
guard, maybe it`s the maid, maybe it`s the help, if you will. But again, within minutes, we found that news. And like you said, he was so
spiritual, so healthy, so vegan, so fastidious about living such a healthy life, to get that news at 57 years old, it was beyond shocking, beyond
real.
PINSKY: You hear Andrew saying he was worried something happened to him. Have you heard anything -- as a defense attorney, have you heard some
evidence or some suggestion that some wrongdoing was afoot here?
DIANA AIZMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I haven`t. It seems like he died of natural causes or something. It doesn`t seem to be a homicide.
PINSKY: OK. Now, the sheriff was confronted about the time of death. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it possible to see when he died? I know time of death was pronounced at seven minutes past 10:00, but had he been dead
overnight in the elevator? Do you know when he actually stopped breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That information is pending.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Carter, let`s see if we can figure this out. There is enough sort of information that we can kind of figure certain things out. In
other words, have you heard anything that leads you to believe that he was there in the elevator for an extended period of time before he was found?
CARTER: I have not. And there`s a difference between when death occurs, when death is pronounced. Somebody has to be certified to do that. They
may look for certain signs on the body such as (ph) liber, stiffening of the body, rigor, will give us an idea of how long he may have been dead
inside that elevator.
PINSKY: Right. I mean, there`s a big difference between him having sudden death -- he was in the elevator and just went down, versus he was in the
elevator, got sick, got weak, fell down, was awake but could not move about -- that, to me, is the big question here. But it`s clear that when they
arrived and initiated CPR, it was too late. You could tell the way the paramedics were discussing it, could you not?
CARTER: Correct. That`s right.
PINSKY: That was my take, too. It had been a long time -- at least -- Dr. Carter, I`d say -- I don`t want to get gruesome about this, but at least
four hours, at least.
CARTER: Yes, and they pronounced him rather quickly, so you know that the signs of death were evident.
PINSKY: OK. The next topic I want to get into, a rocker thought he was honoring Prince, but he is now being called a racist tonight. It`s a
really interesting story about -- well, we`ll get into it. Stay with us. Be right back.
MELISSA KNOWLES, CNN HLN HOST: I`m Melissa Knowles with the T-Mobile DAILY SHARE at this hour. A railroad crossing arm crashed through the windows of
a school bus in California and ended up in a kid`s lap. Everybody is OK. Officials say the arm malfunctioned and hit the bus as it tried to cross
the tracks. No children were actually sitting in the area where the arm pierced the bus, but there were eight students on board.
And a Disney cruise ship rescued three wanted fugitives who were hanging onto the side of a boat. The two men and one woman were found clinging to
a capsized boat off the coast of Cuba last week. All three are wanted in connection with credit card fraud. Police say they are Cuban nationals who
were born in the U.S. and were trying to get to Cuba to avoid prosecution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:12:26] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prince inspired, influenced, wrote for, produced, nurtured so many other talented performers, many of whom would
become stars in their own right.
STEVIE WONDER, MUSICIAN: He could play classical music if he wanted to, he could play jazz if he wanted to, he could play country if he wanted to, he
played rock, he played blues, he played pop, he played everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the seventh grade Prince like? What did he look like? What was he like?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was so good. But not only was he a great keyboard player, but also, as I found out later, he was a great guitar player. He
was one of those people that are very few that he can pick up any instrument and play it but play it better than you do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Two days after Prince was found dead, the lead singer for the band L.A. Guns said this on stage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL LEWIS, MUSICIAN: We were all into that Prince, right, "Purple Rain". It was so cool. You had all your heavy (bleep) and then you had the pop
(bleep), and there was Prince doing his own (bleep) thing. The problem is right now, and I don`t want to be racist about it, but black people are all
one-dimensional. We need more Princes, man. Less (bleep) rappers, and more people like Prince. There, I said it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Diana, Erica, and Andrew. Joining us, "Headkrack", hosts "Dish Nation", and "The Rickey Smiley Morning Show". All right,
Andrew, so -- go ahead, you`re reacting already. Go ahead.
GOUCHE: I can`t believe he actually said that. You know, that`s -- to say, all black people are one-dimensional.
DAVIS: And it`s such a gross mischaracterization of black music. You have the Kendrick Lamars who chronicle their lives growing up in Compton, in the
hood, if you will, who also talk about social injustices. You have the Commons, you have the Frank Oceans who have been linked to homosexual
relationships, as was Prince, but he also raps and sings and produces and writes. You have Childish Gambino who NBC fans know from the show
"Community". Did you guys know that he moonlighted as a rapper -- ?
PINSKY: Andrew`s still trying to figure out how he`s one-dimensional. Wait, I`m one-dimensional?
GOUCHE: Well, I`m trying -- was he talking about just rappers?
PINSKY: I think he was. I`m going to show you some other stuff he said. Shortly after the comments, he tried to clarify himself on Facebook, and of
course people are using language like that, they usually dig deeper. So, it`s since been removed, but these excerpts are via metalsludge.com.
[19:14:55] All right -- don`t expect there will be a new Prince any time soon, but damn sure there will be countless rappers spouting the money and
hoes moronic nonsense that does the black community no favors. I`m sure there are plenty of multi-dimensional brilliant musicians out there, but
you`re not likely to hear about them on mainstream black media. So he`s sort of blaming mainstream black media, which is mainstream media. More
Prince, less rappers, there, I said it again. Carry on. So there he is. What do you say?
GOUCHE: Well, I kind of understand the spirit of what he`s saying because I feel like the music business isn`t what it used to be. It`s not -- I
don`t know that an artist like Prince could flourish today, because there`s no artist development. We live in such a microwave society now, and, you
know, these shows where you can come on and be nobody and at the end of a couple months, you`re famous. So there`s no maturation process that helps
you grow in your craft. They`re not doing that anymore. So I kind of get it, because I feel that way to a certain extent. Not to the extreme that
he said it --
PINSKY: The way he said it. Yes. Let me get some thoughts from Headkrack. Go ahead.
HEADKRACK, TELEVISION HOST: I mean, I don`t necessarily feel like what he said was racist, but I would give him the gold medal in ignorance. I mean,
to just over-generalize like an entire race of people just based off of what your personal opinion is, I think is a little off kilter. And being a
member of radio and television, I can honestly say as it relates to hip-hop a lot of times, you only do see one side of the spectrum. For every guy
like -- I mean I don`t want to throw no rappers under the bus, but there is one side that really gets represented more than others. There`s people
that you should hear about, like Rory and Earth Gang and Bodega Brothers and guys like Logic who have an underground cult following but you don`t
see them on the mainstream, and these are guys really trying to help push the culture further. You get Kendrick Lamar, and you get to see him on a
larger stage, but there are so many more that represent well, and I can understand with an untrained eye why you would feel like it`s one-
dimensional.
PINSKY: I think it`s so fascinating to see a guitarist whose music is based strictly on black music, the derivative of black music from the
South, is no homage to that, but a little bit of focus to the one- dimensionality.
GOUCHE: Our memories are short, too. I don`t know how old that guy is, but he`s probably not old enough to even remember and appreciate where what
he`s doing came from.
PINSKY: That`s what I`m saying. It`s derivative of --
GOUCHE: But it`s not just rock, it`s everything, you know. It`s funny because I`m just a year -- not even a full year younger than Prince, so I
remember how a lot of things used to be, but what I always say, I never want to be that guy -- I didn`t want to be the condescending old guy that`s
talking down on the generations that came after me --
PINSKY: But? Here comes something.
GOUCHE: -- but I get it, you know? But at the same time, because a lot of those old guys, they don`t want to change, and all of this is a
progression. Music evolved, everything evolved. What Prince did in the `80s was not who he was now, you know? And somebody just asked me, do you
think that his music was not as good? But his music was where he was then, where his life was then, and his fans --
PINSKY: History will be the judge of this, to be fair. I`m running out of time, Andrew, but I want to ask some questions since you knew him so well,
before I let you go. There`s all this talk about his hip pain. Did you know anything about that?
GOUCHE: I had heard a lot of conversations about it.
PINSKY: Did anybody know -- did it have a name, a diagnosis, anybody -- ?
GOUCHE: Not that I know of. When you were around Prince, when you were working for him, it`s kind of -- being in a band, it`s kind of, speak when
you`re spoken to. And if he wants to engage, then you engage. So I didn`t ask questions.
PINSKY: Erica, did you hear anything?
DAVIS: I have heard that he was suffering from a hip injury. I`m sure it was from dancing on top of pianos, and that he became a Percocet abuser,
and we talked a little bit off air about whether or not it`s the doctor`s fault for prescribing the pills or is this the talent`s fault or the
abuser`s fault, rather, but I had heard that he was abusing or misusing Percocet and had been going to the drugstore often.
PINSKY: Right. As I said yesterday, I just have to say, we can`t confirm or deny whether it was Percocet or any other opiate, but it doesn`t matter.
Whether it`s Percocet or Dilaudid, or heroin -- these are all dangerous medicines that doctors prescribe routinely. I get very worked up about
this. Stop worrying about what the name of the pill was he used. He may have been on an opiate, and when doctors prescribe opiates and then add a
sleeping pill or a benzodiazepine to it, it kills people. So, this may have been a misadventure where we`re robbed of another young person.
[19:20:02] Now, there may be some underlying whatever, we`ll find out I guess at the autopsy. Whatever the hip pain was, my understanding was,
because of his Jehovah`s Witness status, there may have been some concerns about operations, but I have questions there too. Why not, what they call
autologous transfusion, where he stores his own blood and then gives it back to himself? Maybe it`s because there is a possibility he could have
needed more. Did you hear anything about that, Andrew? You`re leaning in.
GOUCHE: No, I just heard all the stories about, because he was a Jehovah`s Witness, they didn`t believe in blood transfusions.
PINSKY: All right you guys, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I`m just very upset about this. Whenever I start thinking about a healthy
person needlessly taken from us, we were all gypped, he was gypped. It`s very sad.
Next up, a homeless woman, five children. She has five children, she became homeless, all five murdered allegedly by their abusive father.
Tonight she is blaming the state for having done nothing to save them. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:25:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the victims in what`s being described as a horrific crime. Tim Jones` ex-wife reported the five
children, ages 8, 7, 6, 2 and 1, missing September 3 after Jones didn`t drop them off at her house the previous night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We feel these children were killed very early on. I made a promise to these children`s mother that I would bring these children
home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did bring them home, but not how he`d hoped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five sets of remains in plastic bags were recovered. In all of my years of law enforcement, I have never seen a case like this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: A mother whose five children were murdered is suing the social services department that had checked in on her kids dozens of times. She
says South Carolina failed to protect her children from violent deaths, allegedly at the hands of her ex-husband. I`m back with Diana. Joining
us, Steve Moore, retired special agent, FBI. Karamo Brown, TV host, former social worker, and Pat LaLama, managing editor at "Crime Watch Daily",
direct from their newsroom, and here`s what we know.
Social services had visited the house six times in 2011. They made two visits to the home in 2012, the same year the parents divorced. The father
was then granted custody, presuming the mother was homeless at that time. Social services visited the home four times in 2014. The children`s bodies
were discovered in September of that year. Pat LaLama, is this the system at fault? Oh, we lost Pat. Karamo --
KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: I think Pat and I actually have the same point of view on this -- the system is at fault here. These children are
dead because of a faulty system that did not take care of these children. As a former social worker, when you go into this house, if you don`t see
any signs of abuse, then you do create a plan. But once there was signs of abuse --
PINSKY: Was there signs of abuse?
BROWN: There was. In 2011 --
PINSKY: I thought it was an environment of care -- ?
BROWN: No. In 2011, I believe there was abuse that we saw in one of the reports.
PINSKY: Let me ask Pat. Pat, are you back? We lost your sound. Are you there?
PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Can you hear me?
PINSKY: I hear you now. So, you heard what Karamo said. The question I ask, though, were there actual signs of abuse? We`re all blaming the
Department of Social Services, but did they see signs of abuse?
LALAMA: Well, you know what, I just think we would be really irresponsible at this point to say yes. There is something about this case I am just not
convinced of in terms of blaming the state. I would be the first to say so. In fact, just a couple weeks ago on your very show, we talked about a
case here in California where they`re charging social workers with being involved in the death of children. I`m not convinced in this case. Yes,
there were complaints from teachers of bruising, perhaps belt beatings. Six times the social workers developed safety plans, but nothing ever came
of them. They kept opening and closing cases. Yes, there are some issues. I`m not convinced it plays into these children`s murders.
PINSKY: Diana, what are you saying?
AIZMAN: Oh, it totally does. I`m sorry, it does. You can`t have an agency that is tasked with keeping children safe, come in, investigate a
house, repeatedly see signs of neglect, malnutrition, abuse, and then come up with six different safety plans, presumably because each one that
preceded it failed --
PINSKY: Pat, I hear you sighing. What are you sighing about?
LALAMA: I think we have to remember, we are hearing her side of the story from her lawsuit. Now before everyone sends me hate mail, there are some
issues of where was the mother in all of this? She was alleged to have had an affair with a 19-year-old. I`m not saying that makes her a bad person,
but I do -- I know it doesn`t have anything to do with the children dying, but there is a whole big tragedy and there are two sides of the story, and
I think we`re glomming onto her lawsuit at this point. I only say, and I`m usually not the one who does this, I`ll jump on that bandwagon, but this
time I think we need to hear what the state has to say.
PINSKY: Steve, I want to show you what we know about this, Tim, who was the father. He was a graduate of the University of Mississippi, he was
working as a computer engineer at Intel. He served a year in prison fro burglary and forgery in 2002. He married the mother of the children, her
name is Amber, in 2004. Social Services described him as overwhelmed but said reportedly the children were clean, well groomed, appropriately
dressed. There he is. What could have gone so wrong with that guy to cause him to violently kill his five kids?
STEVE MOORE, RETIRED SPECIAL AGENT, FBI: I don`t know. But I can tell you as somebody who did threat assessment quite a bit, that you go through a
series of 20, 30 different factors that you`re looking for, and each one should give you an insight into potential threats. But some of these come
so late in the game. I mean, you might have somebody who is stable for two or three years, and then in three months they lose everything. So
notwithstanding what Karamo said, if there is discipline -- over discipline issues, that doesn`t necessarily lead to murder.
PINSKY: Right. The mother -- let me tell you about her. Amber Jones, married to this man Tim, there he is, for almost 10 years. She had no
criminal record, but here`s what the sheriff told us about her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:30:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s a very nice person, a very sweet lady. She is in shock and is extremely distraught.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Pat, of course in retrospect this is an easy call, but why didn`t the court give the mom custody?
PAL LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Well, that`s a very good question, and it`s not clear why. She -- we all know states have a
tendency to always want the children to be with the mom. It`s a debate you hear often from fathers who are very disgruntled. Why didn`t they? And
there were periods of time where she allegedly was nowhere to be found. Please don`t take this as I`m casting dispersions on the mother, that she
had something to do with these children`s deaths, but there are two sides to this story and we need to hear more.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Just one second, Karamo, I have to ready this because this is -- I have to tell you this because this is a stunning piece, then you can
comment. He -- it`s believed that this guy, the dad, killed the children in their South Carolina home then drove for days across several states with
the children`s bodies, little children`s in trash bags in the car with him. He was stopped at a traffic checkpoint in Mississippi. The car raised some
red flags, and then this. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found evidence of cleaning material, material that would be used to clean blood, they saw blood, they saw children`s clothes
but no children.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
PINSKY: Karamo?
BROWN: I mean, first of all, let`s address the fact that the reason he got the kids is the fact, as you said, the mother was homeless at the time and
there was a lot of different factors that we`ve now coming forward why she was...
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Pat is expressing outrage, how dare you?
BROWN: No, that`s -- that`s the first thing. So, if the mother`s homeless, that`s of course why the father is going to get the children.
LALAMA: But that was after the fact. I don`t -- I...
BROWN: No, that was during the custody battle of why the mother did not get custody of the kids.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: ... social worker, Karamo, you would give it to the dad if -- if that was...
BROWN: Yes, just -- yes, because the mother is homeless. Or I would try to find some other family members.
AIZMAN: Even if there`s a whole bunch of different, you know, events where -- that would maybe cause you to question...
BROWN: Well, because the thing is, you never -- your job is never to rip the children out of the home. You want to try to keep them with their
biological parents, and so even though there are these...
PINSKY: Why not find a place for the mom to live with the kids?
BROWN: Exactly. There`s going to be different things that were probably put in place that we`re also not hearing of, but what is disgusting about
this man, and that goes into his mental health, which I hope that we really start to go deeper into...
PINSKY: Oh, I will.
BROWN: Is because for him to go around for several days, is that what it was?
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Driving around with his children in bags, that`s disgusting.
PINSKY: I -- I -- Pat, I know you`re dying to get in here. Give me -- give me 10 seconds. Go, go, you go. Pat?
LALAMA: Oh, I`m sorry, 10 seconds, okay.
PINSKY: 10 -- yes.
LALAMA: Well, I think if you read a very interesting "New York Times" article about his mental state, he was feeling abandoned and betrayed by
his wife, he sought out counseling, marital counseling, between the two, and his...
PINSKY: Pat, Pat, I`m going to tell you that none of that, none of that is going to make it -- I don`t care how psychopathic he is, none of that is
going to make a guy kill five little kids that are his, but there is something that could. I will tell in you detail what that something is.
And later, new clues in the disappearance of two boys who vanished at sea. It`s led to a family feud over an iPhone. Another iPhone hacking scandal.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five sets of remains in plastic bags were recovered, believed to be that of the Jones children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m real sad for the kids. It`s not much of a man to do something like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We feel that he killed the five children at the same time. He traveled three states with these children in garbage bags in the
back of his vehicle. I don`t think that there is a person in this room that could speak to the mother of these children and not become emotional.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, I`m not surprised. Like I said, he was pretty whacky, both of them, so it doesn`t surprise me too much.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
PINSKY: A mother says her ex-husband killed all five of their children. Social service workers had dozens of chances to prevent these violent
deaths. I`m back with Diana, Steve, Karamo, and Pat.
Sheriff deputies says when Jones was caught, the father, he appeared to be, quote, "under the influence." In -- Pat, remember I told you I`m going to
explain that this is not a psychological problem, this is a profound brain problem. This little thing not working at all. They -- what, go ahead.
LALAMA: Okay, sorry, I was just going to say, you know, in reading some of the research today, when he was found, he was stopped because it was a
DUI check.
PINSKY: Yes.
LALAMA: And there were children`s clothes, some blood, and apparently the makings for methamphetamine.
PINSKY: Yes, right.
LALAMA: Dr. Drew, you know how vile that drug is.
PINSKY: That`s right.
LALAMA: And perhaps he was moving in that arena.
PINSKY: And you know, he had -- he had exactly that and a street drug known as spice.
LALAMA: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: Synthetic marijuana. Now, if everyone does not know enough about spice yet, for god`s sakes, how short are people`s memories. Remember, you
know, remember bath salts? Spice is a close relative in terms of the bizarre manifestations of behavioral problems you can see. People get
seizures, they become disorganized, they start thinking very strange things.
Now, if you`re taking methamphetamine, you`re already going to be paranoid, you`re already going to believe that people close to you are trying to do
things to you. You add spice to that and you get the following phenomena. The sheriff says the father, Tim Jones, had no previous history of mental
health issues, but a warrant says Jones believed, quote, "the children were going to kill him, chop him up and feed him to the dogs."
There you go. Spice plus methamphetamine, enjoy everybody. Drugs and alcohol make this thing behave in ways that are almost unspeakable. You
cannot understand it. It`s an -- it`s a disorder of this organ. This organ when it misfires creates horrible thoughts, horrible behaviors and they
can`t be made sense of.
Now, Pat, my question to you, though, even though that`s a fact, is that in fact what happened to this guy, or is it just a convenient murder defense?
LALAMA: I -- I think it`s so hard to say. I do think there were clearly psychological issues, but perhaps the wiring in his brain was completely
off the grid because of drug use. There are -- there`s testimony from psychiatrists and psychologists who say he was a highly intelligent guy,
perfectly capable of taking care of his kids. And then in another article you read that he was suffering from issues of abandonment and confusion.
So, it`s hard to tell unless we know what was going on in his mind at that moment.
But dr. Drew, one other thing. The way that these children died, I don`t even want to repeat it, but I will because I think it`s important to the
story. He strangled, allegedly, with his bare hands four of them and heinously beat the fifth one to death. What -- something crazy...
PINSKY: Crazy.
LALAMA: ... is going on in his mind at that time.
PINSKY: Yes, so, Karamo, do you think it is a brain -- again, your brain can seize and you can flop on the ground or something like that can happen
and you can manifest strange thoughts and behaviors.
BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: Do you think it`s that, or do you think it`s a convenient excuse?
BROWN: I don`t think it`s a convenient excuse. I do believe that the mental health and him being on drugs does play into him killing these
children, but I also don`t want to go against what this whole point of this story is, is that there`s a lawsuit against Child Protective Services for
not doing their job.
And so the thing is at some point, how did you not assess and see that this man was on drugs? If someone would have went in the house, you could have
seen...
PINSKY: Smell it.
BROWN: ... smelled that there was drugs. That`s the thing. Their job is to go in the house and assess everything that`s going on and see what
condition the kids are living in. And they did not do that properly, and so now here we have a man who probably had some mental problems that has
now got high and killed his kids.
PINSKY: Diana, you`re -- you`re giving me some sort of...
AIZMAN: Yes, so, okay...
PINSKY: Which direction are you going with this? I kind of know
AIZMAN: We -- we know he has a long history of substance abuse.
PINSKY: We did?
AIZMAN: So, reasons he was -- yes, because he was discharged from the military, had to do with the substance abuse.
PINSKY: All right, that -- the -- the social worker should have been all over that.
AIZMAN: Absolutely.
BROWN: That`s the problem.
AIZMAN: That is something you monitor very closely, because that only gets worse as time passes if it`s not treated.
PINSKY: Unless he was in recovery and relapsed. I mean, maybe something happened, he -- you know, addicts lie, and cheat, and manipulate and can
hide. Pat, what are you saying?
LALAMA: Well, yea, I mean, look, I have no issue with condemning these departments who on their watch these children die. I`m the first most
stalwart advocate of getting something done about this stuff. I just think right now we are jumping to conclusions because then we start a big
slippery slope. Every time something happens to a child, someone says, well, let`s go after the children services people, clearly they missed
something. They are humans, they are often understaffed.
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
LALAMA: We don`t know all the conditions.
PINSKY: You`re -- all true, Pat, and -- and I would also argue that, you know, talking about this guy`s substance use as an explanation for his
behavior doesn`t make him any less culpable. He should have gotten treatment long before this. Me -- to me it`s just -- I don`t know how you
don`t give this guy the death penalty.
Steve, what do you...
MOORE: No, I -- I -- saying -- using this as a defense is like using, hey, I was drinking for a DUI thing.
PINKSY: Yes, that`s right.
MOORE: You can`t -- you can`t just say that this is -- this lets him off of anything.
PINSKY: Right.
MOORE: This -- this is a death penalty case.
AIZMAN: Well, it`s a little different, actually, because DUI is a general intent crime which means you just have to intend the actual -- the act of
driving and being under the influence. This is a specific intent crime, and what that means is that he needs to have the mental capacity to form
the specific intent to kill these children.
PINKSY: Which he did.
AIZMAN: So, well, the question becomes...
PINKSY: The question, did he know right from wrong.
AIZMAN: Right.
PINSKY: But what -- what if he were to say, I knew right from wrong, but I thought they were going to eat me and feed me to the dogs.
AIZMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: And therefore, I thought it was right to defend myself.
AIZMAN: So, a jury...
MOORE: (inaudible) syndrome, it -- it still doesn`t fly.
PINKSY: I agree with you. I -- I -- I, listen, I -- five children are dead.
AIZMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Five children are dead. Isn`t that enough? This guy should have gotten treatment a long time ago. I have deep compassion for him if he`d
come to me a month before he killed his kids. Now he killed his kids, too late. Sorry, it`s too late. Pat, do you agree?
LALAMA: Yes, I agree with just about everything everyone`s saying. I think that`s what makes this such a confusing topic to try to settle today.
All of the things that people are saying are absolutely accurate, but I just think I want to go back to the issue of this lawsuit. I say let`s be
careful about this lawsuit. Yes, he may have done this heinous thing to the five children and may he burn in hell if he has. But this lawsuit, I
just feel there`s a little bit of suspiciousness in terms of the intentions of this lawsuit.
PINSKY: You know what, but also I think we kind of agree with you even though we`re very concerned about Social Services` failing here, we sort of
agree with you because we know they have a very, very tough job. I think that`s why we`d rather go back to condemning the father, because that`s
really what -- that`s where (inaudible)
LALAMA: But Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew, are we going to start filing lawsuits against children services every time a child dies?
PINSKY: No, I -- I -- listen, I -- I agree with you, I -- I agree with you. I have to go, though. I`m sorry, Pat. I think that`s why, again,
we`re -- we`re examining it, but we`re not inclined to really embrace the idea that we have to go after them. Holding them accountable and going
after them, I think, are two different things. Improving what they do, helping them do what they do.
Listen, I`m deeply sympathetic to social services. These are really highly trained professionals who are -- have extraordinarily high caseloads.
[19:45:02] We can`t keep up with all the problems we got. Separate conversation.
Next up, new clues about what happened to two teens who had vanished at sea. Why are their parents fighting over an iPhone that was found in their
boat? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last July, Stephanos and Cohen, both 14, left the Jupiter Inlet in this boat and never returned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boat was found off the Florida coast.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the boys were only 14 years old. What were they doing out on a boat? We live in a boating community and this is part of
the lifestyle here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we just confirmed nobody is on board. They`re trying to find any other gear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see the (INAUDIBLE) teens` capsized boat being pulled out of the water off Bermuda just last month.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some personal items aboard were salvaged.
[19:50:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The rescue team also found an iPhone in the tackle box. The iPhone, which belongs to Austin Stephanos, has sparked
a public feud between the families. The Stephanos have the device returned to their family but the Cohens demanded it be turned over to an expert to
preserve the contents of the phone for investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The iPhone is at the center of a battle between these two families. Back with Diana, Steve, Karamo, and Pat.
Pat, why the fight over this phone? You would think they both would want the information there.
LALAMA: It`s an interesting discussion. I`m sorry, Ill make it quick.
PINSKY: Please.
LALAMA: Austin`s phone is the only phone that may have information. It went to the authorities. The authorities said it`s not a criminal case,
we`re going to give it back to Austin`s family. But the other family, the Cohens family, say no, no, no. We want you to investigate that because
there are certain things that make us think perhaps something went wrong, perhaps there was a criminal case here. So now they may have -- we`re not
sure yet -- they may have come to an agreement where a third party will tear this phone apart and try to come up with the information and they
share it. And we`re hoping that that happens.
PINSKY: Now according to our affiliate WFOR, before the boat capsized, Perry had exchanged texts with his mom. Here`s a recreation of that
conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom, it`s Perry. My iPad is dead. I`ll text you in a little. Love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I wanted you to sleep at home tonight. I miss you. We leave Sunday for New York. What about your work?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I was going to sleep at --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s a little scary, right, Steve?
MOORE: Yes. Yes. And it is scary and it gives you a timeline, possibly. What may be happening here though is that this was Austin`s boat, that was
Austin`s phone. And if there`s anything that would show negligence on his part, the Cohens could do a civil action against --
PINSKY: Oh, no. Diana, no. Come on.
AIZMAN: It`s possible. I mean, it`s definitely -- they`ve filed a lawsuit. There`s an injunction that`s pending.
PINSKY: What is going on between the two families? What do you think? Are they blaming each other?
AIZMAN: Yes, maybe. I mean, emotions run high. Whenever something like that happens, you want to blame someone. And they want to blame each
other. And that`s where they are right now.
PINSKY: Karamo.
BROWN: No, these parents are grieving right now. And the best thing that they can do is support each other. Arguing over a phone or trying to look
for fault in what was going on with the boat or if one child was negligent or something -- no, you both lost your children. You need to rally
together, support each other, in this moment.
PINSKY: Pat, do you have further insight into this? Is it just the emotions taking control here?
LALAMA: Well, I think these are two impassioned families. And as your guests say, who can blame them?
Just another little caveat, the lawyer for the Cohens, I think it was today said, oh wow, new information, of the battery switch and the ignition key
turned in the off position, based on these photographs taken by a Norwegian freighter. And he`s saying maybe something clandestine and nefarious.
More reasons why we need to look at that phone.
PINSKY: Wow. OK.
Now exactly, up next, what exactly can an iPhone that`s been sitting in the water, exposed to the elements for eight months, what can that phone
reveal? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Two 14-year-old boys disappeared after taking their boat out for a fishing trip last summer. The capsized vessel recently found floating off
the coast of Bermuda. Authorities recovered an iPhone from one of the teens.
Back with Diana, Steve, Karamo, and Pat.
So, Steve, can they -- a phone`s been sitting there for eight months. Can they retrieve anything out of this?
MOORE: You are asking the FBI agent about the apple phone?
PINSKY: Of course I am.
MOORE: I -- I would kind of doubt it. It`s been in salt water. It`s been really -- it`s been in there for a while. And even the virtual memory is
going to be hard to grab.
PINSKY: Diana, tell me about the Apple connection.
AIZMAN: So one of the families is friends with the former CEO of Apple. And he`s been helping the family try to figure out if they can get anything
off of this phone.
BROWN: They should actually be able to get stuff of the phone, because if the cloud was on, the cloud was going to be picking up everything that was
happening with that phone up until it died.
PINSKY: It turns out, there`s information that is available now that the cloud was not enabled.
Pat, FBI, Apple, are either of them going to be handle this case?
LALAMA: You know what, all I can say, because I know so little about technology, but I would say that if they can get anything off of this
phone, that would be Apple`s next ad, for sure. Because it would be extraordinary. Not to make light of a tragedy.
One thing I do hope -- one thing I do hope is that there is some peace for both of these families, somehow. Maybe there`s a glimmer of hope from this
phone. I doubt it.
PINSKY: Yes, we -- I got to tell you, we were -- during the commercial, we were trying to figure out what have happened in that interrupted text
exchange we saw. Steve was saying that probably something --
MOORE: Probably wasn`t interrupted because he had time to take that and put it into a secure place.
PINSKY: He put it away in a bag, put it in a case. But probably -- he might have been interrupted because the other boy may have said, hey, we`re
going to be in trouble.
MOORE: Absolutely. Or they could have just gone far enough offshore that they couldn`t pick up cells anymore.
PINSKY: Pat?
LALAMA: Well, maybe I misunderstand. I thought it was the son Perry on his iPad that stopped communicating. And that was the iPhone that was put
in the boat. I could be wrong on that. But that was my understanding.
PINSKY: I could be wrong, too. Can control room help me clarify that? Producers help me with that?
It was the phone that they believe we are looking at the exchange with.
Back in October, Perry`s family filed a cease and desist order against Austin`s family, telling them to stop using their son`s picture or name.
The Cohens said they`d issued the order for legal reasons. Again, something really going on between these two families. At first they were
friends. But now, it`s clear that something has gone terribly wrong. It`s such a sad story.
BROWN: Misplaced.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROWN: It`s misplaced aggression because you need to be supporting each other. Everyone who`s watching this story should be sending prayers out
for these families. Because they actually need time to heal instead of going against each other.
LALAMA: Absolutely.
PINSKY: I completely agree. Pat agrees.
Thank you, guys. Pat, thank you so much for joining us as always. We appreciate having you. Karamo, Steve. Diana -- I have to choke on
everyone`s name. Getting to be that age.
All right, listen. DVR, you can watch the show anytime. Now we thank you all for watching. We do appreciate you being here. And "NANCY GRACE" is
next.
END
