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Dr. Drew

The Unique Murder for Hire Case of Brad Sutherland; Teen Cuts Class, Bloodied by Own Father in Boxing "Discipline"; Assistant Principal Threatens Teenage Student. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired May 03, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brad Sutherland said his life has been a blur since police told him his ex-girlfriend was trying to kill him.

BRAD SUTHERLAND, TARGETED FOR MURDER BY EX-GIRLFRIEND: I don`t feel angry. I feel kind of sad that she felt the way she did that she had to.

HOST: Police say it is a unique murder for hire case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rarely do they develop to this degree.

SUTHERLAND: So in a little bit of shock over the whole thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a son with Sutherland but later moved to Knoxville with her new boyfriend Joseph Chamblin. Police say it was

Chamblin who reached out to Tennessee investigators and help capture Buckingham when she said she wanted to kill Sutherland.

SUTHERLAND: He is amazing guy and I owe him my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: A brunette beauty and a former bakery owner, she was busted in an alleged murder for hire plot. Joining me, Sara Azari,

Defense Attorney, Bobby Chacon, retired FBI Special Agent, FBI forensics dive team. Troy Slaten, there you are, Attorney and former Prosecutor.

And I also have Victoria Taft, Investigative Reporter.

Now, new tonight, Laura Buckingham is free. The State of Tennessee released this woman on $150,000 bond because she`s pregnant. Sara, is that

enough to let this woman out on a bond?

SARA AZARI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I am sick and tired of breast-feeding mothers and pregnant women who use motherhood ...

PINSKY: I am too. I`m sick and tired of breast-feeding moms.

AZARI: Who use motherhood as a get out of jail card.

PINSKY: I`m looking at this.

AZARI: Look at his. Pregnancy is not a bail factor. There are four primary factors that need to be considered whether somebody should get bail

and how much that bail should be. At the top of that list is weather you`re flight risk, what is the nature of the offense, is it a violence

offense or is it a nonviolent offense.

PINSKY: Sara.

AZARI: Obviously, murder is at the top of that.

PINSKY: Sara, that she has a child, another human at risk in this case, maybe it`s to protect the pregnancy, to protect the child. The child is

not any responsible for the mom`s craziness.

AZARI: I agree. But Dr. Drew, what about the men? What about the men charged ...

PINSKY: They don`t get pregnant.

AZARI: Correct. And how ...

PINSKY: But nobody there and they are responsible for.

AZARI: But there are men who have terminal illnesses.

PINSKY: That`s about them. This is about another life, a baby.

AZARI: I disagree. I think that ...

BOBBY CHACON, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI, RETIRED: ATTORNEY AND FORMER PROSECUTOR: But then, you could arguably -- say for in the jail, this woman is arguably

a criminal. And like we talked about earlier, the judges assumes guilt for purposes of bail. So this woman is nothing but determined and driven,

she`s ambitious. I would argue that baby is probably safer in custody.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Fair enough.

TROY SLATEN, ATTORNEY AND FORMER PROSECUTOR: our prisons and jails are fully capable of handling somebody who`s pregnant or has any kind of

medical issue.

PINSKY: You`ve been to the jail wards? You`ve been up there?

SLATEN: I visited. I`ve seen my clients.

PINSKY: Jail wards are pretty rough spots. At least the ones I used to work in back at the old county.

Victoria, tell us more about how this woman got caught.

VICTORIA TAFT, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, she got caught because her new boyfriend decided that he felt she might be coming after him. When she

started talking about ways of which he could get rid of her ex-boyfriend. So when he caught wind of the fact that she was serious, he started

recording.

PINSKY: Victoria, do we -- oh, he recorded it. Do we have any details about what she intended him to do?

TAFT: No. There are several different kinds of things that she considered doing to or having him do to her ex-boyfriend, all of which would end his

life. And when it got to the point where the boyfriend, the new boyfriend said, "Yeah, this isn`t going to work out so well for me", he turned her

in.

AZARI: Victoria, didn`t she actually -- it`s one thing if you ask, but it appears to me like she was coercing the new boyfriend.

TAFT: Oh absolutely.

AZARI: ... into going and killing the ex-boyfriend. And then, when he refused, she was asking for advice on how she could do it some other way,

like finding an alternative, right?

TAFY: Oh, absolutely. Well, she was bound and determined to do it by the way. She`s a bit of a bad ass. She`s a boxer and she`s a former Marine.

And so, therefore, she was not without some scruple, well, a scrupulous, I apologize, ways in which she could have done it.

PINSKY: Yes. The one thing she did lacked was scruples, the many -- the skills at her disposal.

AZARI: Skills.

PINSKY: Yes. I guess, why don`t she just -- so let me get this straight. So she was actually thinking about doing it herself if her current

boyfriend wouldn`t do it for her, right?

TAFT: Well, she was willing to find somebody to do it for her. She figured that her boyfriend or current boyfriend would be a really great

person to try to do that.

PINSKY: OK. Now, to the neighbors and the community around this woman, this woman, Laura, the alleged perpetrator, was a hero and a celebrity. She

was on little magazine covers. She had two tours of duty in Iraq with the marines. She opened a bakery. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was one of those success stories that you like to hear about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, there are still people coming up here and, you know, trying to eat, bragging about her food and everything, her

cooking and her baking.

LAURA BUCKINGHAM, BREAD AND BREAKFAST OWNER: I started selling bread on the side of Highway 150 and Floyds Knobs. And then I started selling at

different farmer`s markets and I couldn`t keep up with the demand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last six months, you could tell she was under some stress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) to say deservances (ph), all in different boyfriends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. Now, according to court documents, Laura or as she is becoming to be called on this network, hot mom, was fighting with her ex-

boyfriend over custody of their 3-year-old son. How did that, Sara, turn to a plot for murder? She has got fed up with going out there?

AZARI: I don`t know the details of what the custody battle was about. But, you know, she decided, it`s serious enough that she`s get rid of this

guy.

PINSKY: Troy, how do you defend something like this?

SLATEN: This is all talk, Dr. Drew. We`re punishing somebody for having conversations with her current boyfriend, you know, talking about how

horrible her ex-baby daddy is.

AZARI: I`m sorry, bit that`s why there`s a crime.

SLATEN: You know, I`d love to kill him. I`d love to think -- let`s think about all the ways we could get rid of him.

AZARI: Troy, but there`s actual murder and there`s attempted murder. That`s why she`s charged with attempted murder because she`s just a step

away from executing.

SLATEN: She was just talking about it. She was just talking about it.

AZARI: She met with a hitman.

CHACON: From crime conspiracy includes talking about something.

SLATEN: If you mean it.

(Crosstalk)

CHACON: Not only did she talk to the boyfriend, but then he introduced her to an investigator with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation ...

TAFT: Correct.

CHACON: ... and that went as an under cover agent went in as posing as hitman and she had additional conversations in detail and I believe, she

paid some of the money to that investigator.

AZARI: She put a down payment.

CHACON: Put a down payment on this.

PINSKY: Actually paid money to get ...

AZARIL: $300 or something like that.

PINSKY: Just to hold the murder.

AZARI: So, what more do you need?

CHACON: That is an act on purpose that we call that an act of furtherance of conspiracy. So not only have you laid out the conspiracy, how you want

it to go, now you have taken out an over act in carrying out the conspiracy.

PINSKY: Now, heard this woman stepfather says when she got back from Iraq, she had quote, "very bad post-traumatic stress disorder." Now, I think

most people are aware of post-traumatic stress disorder as mood lability, flashbacks, sometimes thoughts of hurting yourself, you can have aggressive

outbursts.

I know see, Troy, I know you`re trying to defend this woman. I don`t see where hot mom`s PTSD does a damn thing for her.

SLATEN: Well, courts all over the country are starting to have special programs for military veterans suffering from PTSD and the whole array of

psychological ...

PINSKY: Does this in any way qualify for that?

SLATEN: It may. We don`t know what happened to her, you know, on her tour of duty. And, look, the boyfriend that she was with is no stellar guy.

This is a guy who was accused of urinating on a combatant that was killed on the battlefield in Iraq, famous story in 2011.

PINSKY: We`re going to into the boyfriend that she consulted about this murder or what you say coerced and colluded with to get the duty as murder.

Yeah, he`s got someone (inaudible) but he ended up saving the -- the ex- boyfriend`s one life.

My question is, Bobby, anyway in which the PGSC (ph) figures into this for you. I don`t see anyway ...

CHACON: I don`t think so and it`s little early in the process, so she hasn`t had a defense attorney actually come out and say that`s going to be

an affirmative defense for her. We don`t know that yet. It would be an interesting defense. It`s a very growing area of both medicine and the law

and how they mix. So it`s going to be interesting to see if that`s part of ...

AZARI: Any defense attorney, she is -- looking for public defenders. She negotiated her own bail of $150,000. It`s absolutely mind-boggling to me

because when bail is even granted for murder or attempted murder, it is in the millions. It`s not $150,000.

PINSKY: All right. We`re going to hear from the boyfriend that she attempted to lure into her deadly plot. As we discussed, the former

marine with a controversial past. So stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s a baker gracing the cover of Southern Indiana Living Magazine and a Marine serving two tours in Iraq. 29-year-old Laura

Buckingham is something as a local celebrity near Knoxville, an American hero, accused of murder-for-hire plot against her ex-boyfriend.

Bradley Sutherland, the father their 3-year-old son. Police say Buckingham recruited her new boyfriend, Marine sniper, to help kill him.

SUTHERLAND: Why, is the only question I have. Only thing I want to know, why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That was from ABC News. This brunette beauty, marine turned baker was involved in a custody dispute with her ex-boyfriend. She allegedly

then asked her current boyfriend to help plot his murder.

Back with Sara, Troy, Bobby and Victoria. Now, Laura`s boyfriend, Laura, hot mom so-called, Joseph Chamblin is the one who informed police about her

plan to kill her ex. He was a Marine sniper as you heard in that piece. He gained notoriety though when he and his fellow service men had urinated

on dead Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.

Here`s what he told Marine Corps Times about that incident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the video hurt the Marine Corps reputation?

CHAMBLIN: Well, depends on what your idea of what a Marine should be. If your idea of what Marine should be is a real fancy looking guy in a uniform

that does snap and pop with a rifle, and walks out on a parade -- around and looks pretty, then yeah, probably hurt it. If your idea of what a

Marine should be is, you know, the enemy`s worst nightmare that will go out there and kill him and take a fight to him no matter what the cost,

then I don`t think it did. You can`t have both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And now, he apparently has saved the man`s life. Troy, what do you think of this guy?

SLATEN: He`s clearly a person who disgraced himself. He disgraced the United States. He disgraced the military. He was engaging in conduct

unbecoming a service member. But did he save this other man`s life? I don`t know.

Maybe he just was sour grapes with his current girlfriend and wanted to get her in trouble and this member of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation

essentially entrapped her and got her to continue on with maybe this fantasy of getting rid of her baby daddy.

AZARI: This is such a stretch. There`s no evidence of that. There`s no evidence of any animosity in their relationship, as of yet at least,

there`s no evidence of that. I think it`s really simple. I think this guy thought, "Man, this woman is, you know, she`s for real ...

(Crosstalk)

PINSKY: Bobby?

CHACON: I think this guy could be the baby daddy of her new baby for all I know. I mean, she`s pregnant now.

PINSKY: Yeah.

CHACON: This guy could be the father of that child, I don`t know.

PINSKY: It could still be turning in his baby momma for murder.

CHACON: Exactly. This is a guy who has battled the Taliban, right? He`s been on the battlefield. And if she made the hair on the back of his neck

stand up and say, "Hey, something is wrong here." Then all of the unsavoriness in his background just lend credence to the fact that maybe

she is worse than him.

PINSKY: And, Victoria, I saw you, you`re laughing at the Troy`s defense there.

TAFT: I`m laughing because that`s the most absurd thing I`ve what heard in quite sometime. First of all, her ex-boyfriend is engage to someone else

now. That might be a circumstance here that you might want to consider.

PINSKY: Wait, Victoria, the ex-boyfriend with -- that she has the previous child with?

TAFT: Yes, and he has a fiancee. I`m just wondering if may that`s why she wanted to get her child away from that man for some reason, who knows? But

the other thing is, is that, of course, Troy is exercising hyperbole because he has a loser of a case right here. How would you like to defend

that chick?

SLATEN: I know.

TAFT: But, and by the way, if I just can say something, the Taliban are the baby-raping Jew-chopping heads off of a girl and women hating people

who don`t like little girls to go to school. So a man urinating, I mean, I don`t see that as that -- urinating on Taliban is not that bad in my book.

CHACON: Well, I mean, I understand what military has to do to him because they did on video and then, they put it on Youtube. So it went beyond the

payoff of being a soldier in the U.S. Army or even the Marine Corps.

But, like I said, this guy is of such character that, you know, he`s not the soldier of the year material. But even still he himself, at some point

in this exchange went, "You know what, this girl is not joking about this and I need do something to stop her."

PINSKY: Yeah. Let me -- we`ve got some social media post from our viewers. Here, this is Joe sent me this on Facebook. It says, "Drew, if I

had a girlfriend to ask me to kill her ex, my instinct would be to break up with her not call the feds and wear a wire." So, Joe, is claiming that

he`s a snitch.

CHACON: Well, I think what he wanted to go to the detectives, the local detectives with some kind of evidence or proof. And so he made a series of

recordings himself, brought it to them to say, "This is serious."

PINSKY: And, by the way, the Joe, there Mr. Cavalier Joe is going to just break up with a woman that want to kill her ex-boyfriend, how did Joe know

he wouldn`t be next?

SLATEN: Right, exactly.

PINSKY: I mean, come on now. Pete said this, "Attractive woman, loving mother, served her country. She will serve a short prison term and be

released for good behavior. I wanted you all to know that every male virtually that posted on my social media was sympathetic to her because she

is a hot mom, because of her looks." So will the courts also be similarly swayed by her appearance?

AZARI: I don`t think so. What if you had a female judge? That could work against you. I mean, that could be bad. You don`t want to look good if

you have a female judge. I mean, that`s the truth, whether you are an attorney or a defendant.

So, not always. I don`t think her looks are going to take her far in the criminal justice system. But ...

PINSKY: Well, in Troy`s hands, she`ll be fine.

SLATEN: I man, the reality is, you know, that jurors are sometimes sympathetic to a defendant ...

PINSKY: Jodi Arias. Jodi arias did not get the death penalty because of how she looks.

AZARI: Yes. You know, the truth -- yes, and if you have, you know, primarily male jurors, I think that would obviously be very helpful.

SLATEN: That`s one of my jury.

PINSKY: Well, certainly the social media, Bobby, suggests that men have a bias this way. We must be wired for it because it looks that way on social

media.

CHACON: Well, you know, you can probably speak better how men are wired, you know, than I can. But, you know, I don`t know. I think this case, she

can play the mom card. She can play the hot mom card. She will have a new born at that point. By the time this goes to trial, she will have a new

born and she`ll have the 4-year-old. If I was her defense attorney I would have them in the front row.

PINSKY: So let`s add up the score of this one. I`m very interested in what my viewers want it do with this woman, please bring in on our Facebook

page. Because here is the way the score adds up.

She has successfully played the pregnant hot mom against the judge, and negotiated her own bail at a low rate. She is playing the, what, just the

hot mom per se in social media and men are persuaded by that. The question is, when she goes it trial will any of this add up to something that

mitigates her punishment? I think it looks like it would.

SLATEN: I think the big mitigation is she didn`t commit the crime of murder. She didn`t actually take any steps in furtherance other than

possibly money to this guy who was enticing her to do it. This guy ...

PINSKY: For the record ...

AZARI: But, Troy, she is not charged with murder. The charge is attempted murder. That`s what the jury is going to consider.

SLATEN: He was trying to get her to do it. He was goading her into it. This was a cop who knew he wasn`t going to do anything and he`s trying to

say whatever he can to get her to say the magic words.

PINSKY: Troy, anybody exchanges funds of any type in an attempt or plan to harm me, I`m going it harm you. I don`t want you to be in any way near a

defense that behaves like that. I`m just saying.

Coming up, a teen cuts class ends up bloodied by his own father. Is that discipline or is that abuse? You`ll see the tape. And next, an assistant

principal threatens a teenage student. The threat is sleep with me or else. Details when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An assistant principal, the suspect. A female high school student, his alleged victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrew Williams appeared in court in handcuffs in the clothes he was arrested in. Graphic arrest warrants say he had sexual

encounters with the girl beginning in 2014 when she was 15 and multiple times until early this year.

The teen says Williams threatened her, told her if he didn`t meet his demands, she wouldn`t see her siblings anymore. Police believe there is

more to this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact, the more we dug in into his past, the more became a parent that he has a reputation among the student body in multiple

Rock Hill area schools of being a pedophile due to his activity of sleeping with female students.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A police officer just called your client a pedophile.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is not pedophile and, again, as previously stated, every accused person is innocent until proven guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Police say he also had threatened to take the teen girl and her young are sibling away from their mom if the girl did not have sex with

him.

Back with Sara, Troy, Bobby and Victoria, and, Victoria, there is even more from the arrest warrant. Tell us about it.

TAFT: Well, that`s right. As a matter of fact, he coerced her into having sex with him. And on of the reasons he did that was because, of course, he

wanted sex. But he said, in return, if she didn`t give to him he would mess up her grades, he would doctor her grades. And furthermore, he also

said he wouldn`t arrange it so that her siblings would be taken away from her mom.

PINSKY: And, again, this sexual coercion, not an uncommon tactic, if that`s in fact what happened here. Now, here is the wrinkle. The teen`s

mom told station WBTV that she believed she, the mom, was developing a relationship with him.

She said, "I really cared about him. He was here everyday. He had a key to my house. I fed him. So I looked at it as a relationship but he

didn`t". Yes, Sara, no kidding he did.

AZARI: No, he didn`t and you know what? He is the one charged with a crime but she`s the more culpable one in my opinion. She is the one ...

PINSKY: More than he is?

AZARI: Yes. She opened the door to this. She invited the man into the sanctity of her home. Look, we keep blaming the schools. We need to stop

blaming schools. Safety starts in the house.

PINSKY: I agree with you but damn, any reason for a woman to blame a woman. I mean, come on now. This guy, he is alleged to be the

perpetrator, not she. She, yes, was unwitting duped, she made horrible choices. I can say, she`s not a great -- not mom of the year, but that guy

is the perpetrator.

AZARI: He is the perpetrator. He is going to pay for this. I mean, I think this is a pretty serious crime that he`s committed.

SLATEN: Sara, you`re out of your mind. This guy is a sexually violent predator.

AZARI: I`m not discounting that.

SLATEN: I mean, I`m a defense attorney and this guy is bad news. He was doing all of the classic things that a bad guy does to try and get the

kids. He was grooming them. He was threatening them. If we didn`t have sex with me I`m going to take you away from your mom and dad. I`m going to

take you all your siblings.

AZARI: I agree with you but guess what?

SLATEN: These are all the classic things that a bad guy does to have sex with a child.

AZARI: I agree but, yes, where he was doing it. He was doing it in residence ...

SLATEN: The mom who gave him the keys. Basically the mom ...

CHACON: Blaming the mom and using some of the same devices against the mom and use against the child.

PINSKY: I`m sympathetic to that mom because she didn`t even occur to her that this guy could be ...

SLATEN: Well, he is guilty of the crime. She`s guilty of not protecting her daughter.

PINSKY: Let`s be fair. The mom, again, I will surprise you, Sara. You`re taking aim with the mom ...

AZARI: You`ll never know.

PINSKY: Two moms in a row you`ve taken aim at. Any excuse again and get out of mom. But -- and she is not mom of the year, but she was manipulated

by what allegedly seems to be a sociopath, very skilled in what he`s doing. He really shoved down these kids autonomy to the point they couldn`t tell

the mom. I mean, he played this perfectly. Now, who knows what liabilities this mom had that he played upon but he knew what he was doing.

CHACON: Oh, absolutely. And here`s what happens, just like the way these pedophiles target the at risk children that they go after. He obviously

picked up on something in the mother that was a weakness that he could, you know, manipulate.

PINSKY: That`s right. Now, police say this guy add reputation among the student for sleeping with student. So my question, Troy, why did -- you

want to blame the mom, you want to blame the perpetrator. What about the school`s role here? If this guy was rumored, if you had ever heard a rumor

about that guy, didn`t the school have an obligation to look into it?

SLATEN: They may have had the obligation to look into it, if the rumor rose to the level of administration. But I don`t think it`s the school is

necessarily at fault here, it`s this guy. This guy was doing all the things ...

PINSKY: This guy who was an assistant principal at said school, Rock Hill Schools, I`m just saying, if they heard rumors, now I know false

allegations, Bobby, can destroy a teacher`s career. I want to protect our teachers. But doesn`t the school administration have some ...

CHACON: Well, yeah. And I think that many schools have in place procedures and prohibitions against administrator and teacher involvement

with students on social media, you can`t be friends with them on social media.

AZARI: How the boundaries?

CHACON: There are boundaries.

PINSKY: What about the house?

CHACON: Clearly, there were no boundaries in this case.

AZARI: But also, you know, high school, there`s rumors. That`s the mecca of rumors. There`s the kids who have that hots (ph) for their, you know,

good looking teacher.

And so what the school supposed to launch a formal investigation every time a rumors, you know, spread around the campus?

SLATEN: The school can destroy someone`s life. If a rumor like this gets up and -- gets out, rather and the administration starts willy-nilly

investigating somebody .

PINSKY: Well, willy-nilly, to be fair, for all we know is the school did sniff around a little bit. And I was raising that as a hyperbolic sort of

idea that school has an obligation, they may have fulfill that obligation and they may have done it in such a way to protect his privacy and not

really -- we may not be .

CHACON: No, but here`s the thing. We have competing interests. Of course, we always have, right, privacy versus law enforcement, whatever.

Here, you have the interest of the teacher`s reputation and his livelihood. But the other interest, the protection of the child against being sexually

abused .

PINSKY: That should be prioritized (ph).

CHACON: . that is heavier weighted (ph) and you`ve got to always err on the side of going against protecting that against the interest of the

person`s reputation.

So the teacher, you know, his e-mail should have been checked. His social media should be checked. And they should be monitored. And this is should

be standard part of teaching profession nowadays.

PINSKY: Now investigators say the victim, the victim, this young girl is now scared for her safety at the same time they are hoping that others will

come forward because if this guy is this skilled, Bobby, and done it once, this well, probably not the first time.

CHARON: Well, we`ve all seen that in these cases, right? The first one comes -- the first victim comes out and then the pressure is off some of

the other victims. I have no doubt that they`ll be other victims coming forward in this case.

PINSKY: Victoria -- hang on. He is alleged to have -- that we heard to the opening footage, Victoria, that he`s alleged, so there`s the word

pedophile gets thrown around. Is that fair? Or is that something he can ultimately sue for as a defamation?

TAFT: Not if it`s the police making the claim and the police in fact are the ones making the claim. They went back and they looked at his

background and they figured out why it was that these kinds of rumors followed him and they came to the conclusion that this guy is a pedophile.

And as we know from what we see in the news before, it`s very difficult to fire a teacher. If in fact he`s done this before, and I`m sure he probably

has done something that raise the suspicions of people, then they have an obligation as a school to not pass the trash.

They have actually had a word before (ph) it`s a phrase, "Pass the trash." And what they do is they pass the teacher to another school to get them out

of trouble because it is easier than firing a tendered teacher.

PINSKY: And to be fair, the law enforcement does that same kind of thing. Do they not have heard of him? Then educated about that for all of the

stuff .

AZARI: But my understanding, Victoria is that other than the rumors, there is no documentation that he is a pedophile and there`s no record. He

doesn`t have a record.

PINSKY: Well, except that he`s alleged to have been with this girl at 15.

TAFT: That`s right for a long .

(CROSSTALK)

STALEN: Alleged pedophile.

PINSKY: Right. If these charges are true, he is a pedophile.

All right next stuff, a father busts his son`s lip wide open during a boxing battle. Dad says this was discipline. I`ll tell what I think after

this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am here today because this man took from my daughter something that God gave her and that is her innocence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a reputation among student body who multiple Rock Hill area schools of being a pedophile due to his proclivity of

sleeping with female students.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arrest warrants say, "The defendant coerced the victim by threatening to harm her school record." He said very little in

court and his family would not speak to reporters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: They are talking that piece about Kenneth Andrew Williams, the high school assistant principal accused of having sex with a teenage female

student. Police say, he threatened her if she didn`t comply with his demands.

Back with Sara, Troy, Bobby and Victoria. Joining us via Skype, Steve Perry, principal and founder of Capital Preparatory Magnet School.

Steve, help us make sense to this. What do you make of this story?

STEVE PERRY, PRINCIPAL, CAPITAL PREPARATOR MAGNET SCHOOL: Well, it`s an unfortunate set of circumstances because it`s not uncommon. What we see

too often is our colleagues who cross the line.

They create an inappropriate proximity to children even if it doesn`t become sexual, still inappropriate where they allow children to feel like

they are adults or they quite frankly become predators and have sexual relationships with them.

PINSKY: Well, Steve, you packed a bunch into that because I want to unpack that if you don`t mind because we are talking about that during the

commercial break amongst to ourselves here and that is, there should be teachers just like physicians and other people in authority (ph) have to

have exquisitely clear boundaries.

The fact that this teacher goes out to dinner or visits a home of a parent of a student that may not be explicitly against the rules, but that is now

explicitly violating boundaries and should be, in my opinion, forbidden.

PERRY: That`s a very clear difference between going over to visit your -- one of your students at their house because somebody invited you over and

making yourself comfortable in their home. It`s a profound difference between taking a kid out because they got a good grade for ice cream to

taking them out regularly.

Kids, in fact, are usually the first in the school to notice this. They have this sort of kid-dar (ph) where they know who is sleeping with whom

even when it`s an adult.

PINSKY: Yeah. That`s what Bobby we were talking about this and often times kids when there`s a rumor often times the rumors were tend to be

factual.

PERRY: Yes. I think -- and especially with social media nowadays. I mean, social media is the conduit where these rumors grow and get verified.

PINSKY: And, Steve, help us understand, are there tell-tale signs that a relationship has become inappropriate. You mentioned a couple there. It`s

just that it becomes, sort of more chummy or, you know, are there more explicit kind of signs?

PERRY: It`s absolutely. They are very clear of signs when the two people start bicker almost like a couple or communicate like a couple. They have

inside jokes, when the adult and child are spending time together that you can account for, and more importantly when it`s just doesn`t feel right.

PINSKY: Yeah.

PERRY: You know, you talked earlier with your guests about what they should -- what should happen. The fact is in most states that I`m aware

of, even if you`re not 100 percent sure that there is something going on, we are court-ordered reporters. We have to report. That`s not an option

that we have. And if we do not, we stand a chance to lose our license and anything else we have, like freedom.

PINSKY: Steve, my understanding is this guy was, on paper, an upstanding guy. Are there anything you can do to screen for somebody at risk for this

behavior?

PERRY: No, you can`t. There`s no way. These guys are typically the most charming beloved most popular cats (ph) on campus

In fact, what this young woman is really aware of is because these guys are so popular, and sometimes women, because these women and men are so popular

on campus, she is right to be concerned for her well-being because people will start to look at her like she`s wrong because people will typically

like them. They are very, very popular.

So it`s -- she`s right. It is a tough situation. No, you can`t predict this.

PINSKY: Victoria, do you want add something on this conversation?

TAFT: I do. I wonder if he should have given her his number so that she could text him and talk about the fight that was coming up and that the

fight that he was going to protect her from.

I mean, first of all, he was exchanging sex for doing his job, which was to protect the students. And then she got beaten up and then all the sudden

she yelled out, "I don`t want to be alone with that man." And that`s when the cops started looking into it.

But texting seems to, you know, having that connection, that`s just a no-no as well. Plus, and of course, it goes to that saying that if you`re the

mother of this child, you certainly don`t want to give this guy your keys to your house.

PINSKY: Yeah. And I was explaining to these guys during the break, too, that something that happens.

Listen, I don`t know this mom. I don`t know what happened to this mom. I`m not saying anything about this mom or this alleged perpetrator, but

people should be aware that when someone has been the victim of some sort of abuse in childhood they become attracted to people and circumstances

that are very much like the perpetrator and circumstances in which they themselves were abused.

It`s something about our brains that may -- it`s called traumatic repetition, repetition. We do that. It`s in our brain. It`s how it

works. I wonder if this mom had been victim of something herself and so was attracted to this victimizer, and of course, the victimizers, the

perpetrators smell this on people and they swoop in. They take full advantage of it. Thank you guys.

Next stop, a teen cuts class and he ends up bloodied at the hand of his own father. Discipline or abuse? After this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: A teenager cuts class so his own father demands the boy put on boxing gloves so he could serve up a little discipline.

Now, I have a warning. Some viewers maybe disturbed by this video which the father himself posted on Facebook. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAVIS SELLERS, DAD IN BOXING VIDEO: Today, he walked out of the teacher`s class and granted (ph). I know teachers be (inaudible) up, so I let him

know he could walk out of class. But call me so I`m on your side.

All day went by, he didn`t call. So now, it`s discipline time. Discipline for not following my directions. Secondly, teaching him how to defend

himself.

Come on, put the gloves on and let`s go. You want to cut out of school? This is what you have to deal with coming home. Let`s go.

Yeah, you got to watch. You can`t come in with your eyes closed. You know that. I told you that. That`s what the jab is for. Jab is to hide the

punch.

And you want to cut up and disrespect your teachers. You got to come home to this. That`s will (inaudible) on it?

Hey, you all, this is what happened when I cut up with (inaudible). Hey, let him know. Let him know. Tell your teacher you`re sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry for getting up and walking out of your class.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now that video went viral. The father was arrested. The son removed from the home. Our producer spoke with the father. He says he`s

unable to comment at this time.

Back with Sara, Troy, Bobby.

Now, Bobby, the father says he was disciplining the son. What do you think?

CHACON: You know, it`s a difficult position for me to be in because .

PINSKY: Why?

CHACON: . I dealt with a lot of cases where there`s complete lack of parenting and, you know, when someone does something like this and they

overstep the bounds possibly of parenting, it`s really difficult for me because I`ve seen too many places and too many children nowadays that don`t

have any parent in their home and I have friends and family that are teachers have to deal with this.

PINSKY: You`re defending the dad?

CHACON: You know, I`m not defending how he did it. I think that the fact that he took the video and he posted on Youtube makes this whole situation

more about him than the child. But, it`s really difficult for me.

PINSKY: Troy, what if it was not boxing gloves. What if he is -- they got in a four-point stance so they just -- they were practicing blocking and

the dad got very aggressive and said, you know, think about things you do.

And was just sort of while he was being aggressive with the child in play, because what this -- because it`s not the dad took out a weapon and started

beating the kid and left the kid defenseless, because I`m having a strange reaction to this thing.

The number one experience of abuse is powerlessness. And he didn`t leave the kid powerless. He gave him a pair of gloves.

Now, it`s unfair and even called all kinds of things. I`m not saying it`s OK what he did. What I`m saying, it`s not the usual things we see that

makes us so upset when parents discipline with aggression.

STALEN: Well, clearly that he is not the father of the year. But, you know, in the law, when somebody attacks somebody, even with gloves, that`s

not in a sanctioned or agreed upon fight, we call that assault with a deadly weapon.

PINSKY: Well, right. What would have been different, Sara, if he -- let say he`s in a gas station and some guy needs discipline and he disciplines

the guy in the pump next to him. I mean, we call that assault.

AZARI: Yeah. And, you know what, before -- that the trouble I have with this is that before we even get to other, its abuse, or, you know,

corporeal discipline or abuse, it`s not even the sport.

He`s twice the kid`s size. He -- The kid doesn`t have head gear on. He really can`t defend himself. Boxing is not about leaving your opponent

with blood.

PINSKY: So it`s really more about the child safety that he is putting the child at risk of, you know, the unsafe environment.

AZARI: Absolutely.

PINSKY: All right, I want to bring in the friend of the father. On the phone is his best friend, Leo Curtis.

Leo, why this? Why did he choose to do something so violent?

LEO CURTIS, FRIEND OF DAD IN BOXING VIDEO: Well, first off I definitely can`t -- I have to re-battle (ph) that he definitely wasn`t being violent

with him in the first day (ph), because I lived with him almost two years. And I have watched the discipline go from punishment to taking things away

to even the traditional spanking. And it did nothing for him.

I mean, he basically just kind of infused the problem. But I`ll be honest with you, I boxed pretty much all my life. And by watching them, I

suggested them that I learned a lot from being a boxer. I learned a lot from the discipline that was involved in. I learned a lot from the

routines that were involved in and it also taught me respect as well.

PINSKY: But, Leo, to be fair, I get what you are saying. But, what you would argue, Sara, is that isn`t boxing?

AZARI: That isn`t boxing. And by the way, Leo, I box, too, with the dudes, not with the chicks. And, you know what, that`s not boxing. You

don`t leave your opponent bloody.

It`s not about being twice the size of your opponent. A child -- he`s still 17-year-old boy with no head gear. And, you know, somehow he seems

to write this off, like, we`re a boxing family. That`s what we do in house. We horse around with our boxing gloves.

But this is, you know, do you spar and talk to your opponent? Do you have a conversation about why you`re pissed off at your opponent?

CURTIS: Not necessary, but I`ll be honest with you.

PINSKY: Please.

CURTIS: OK. I`ll be completely honest with you. You can ask him if the child, himself, and he actually prefer this method. The spanking, that was

something that he basically ignored.

I mean, taking away punishments and keeping him from one outside, it didn`t do anything. And to be honest with you, I guess he has some built-up

aggression where he likes this particular method of discipline, shall I say.

I mean, just being and often to him, I`ve watched his grades change in a matter of a year. He`s an honor roll student. So he missed more than 50

days from the previous year. He`s a different kid today.

Now, it may not work with you or your standards of where you come from. But I`ll be honest with you, I`ve seen him become a grown man in a year.

He respects his dad more.

PINSKY: Hold on, Leo.

(CROSSTALK)

CURTIS: He has a choice.

PINSKY: Leo, hold on one second.

STALEN: The dad is upset that the kid didn`t call him so the dad could be a part of a lie with the school. This wasn`t about teaching the kid to do

the right thing and to stand up for yourself and to be an honorable good person.

The dad was upset that the kid got caught and that he didn`t called his father so his father could cover for him. What would kind of .

PINSKY: I got to break. I got to break

STALEN: This is crazy.

PINSKY: It gets a little muddy here. And that the father posts another video and he addresses the boxing controversy. This time with the son in

the video, you will see it here when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREKA)

PINSKY: A father videotapes as he forces his 17-year-old son to box with him, leaves him ultimately bloodied and crying. Dad says this was his way

of disciplining the teen.

I`m back with Sara, Troy, and Bobby.

Now, after the backlash the dad received a quite of backlash. He then made another video with his son explaining that boxing video. Look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SELLERS: So a lot of people feel like I`ve really child abused you. Have you ever in your life felt that I child abuse you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SELLERS: Do I make you feel that I love you, like even when I discipline like -- do you ever feel that I have.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, we can talk about afterwards. (Inaudible) beating and you`re like, "Oh that`s it. You go to your room." We talk

about it afterwards.

SELLERS: Exactly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Bob, you were trying to make a point about there are absent fathers and there`s people that maybe try to father, maybe it`s misguided a

little?

CHACON: Well, there`s absent fathers at one end and then it`s really abuse of father at the end.

(CROSSTALK)

CHACON: This is some -- it`s probably towards the wrong end, but it`s not totally in the other way. And I think that there is some effort of

fathering here. There is some effort to teach this kid .

PINSKY: It`s not teaching kid .

CHACON: . whether it`s over the line.

PINSKY: Over the line, but it`s not making him -- it`s not leaving the child completely powerless. I`m not signing off on it, but -- so keep your

cards and letters coming. But I`m saying that giving him gloves, it`s empowering him. Of course, it`s sport and yet it`s not fair. That`s .

AZARI: But it`s really about -- it`s not even about -- this was about this guy showing his muscle, you know, throwing in the last punches before this

kid turns 18.

PINSKY: Is he trying to be a father?

AZARI: No. This is offensive to father as in fatherhood. This is not being a father. A father who doesn`t care whether his child ditches school

or not, he was scares that he wasn`t told. What kind of fatherhood is that?

STALEN: There`s nothing about this, that`s good. And that video seemed like an attempt after the fact .

PINSKY: Leo, enforcing it (ph). Leo, how are things going now? What do you say?

CURTIS: I`m just sorry. Like, this is all right. She can say whatever she wants. But, I was raised that way where we`ve grown men, don`t come

from days even sugar. You don`t see they`re grown -- you don`t see a young man becoming a grown man by teaching him how to bake. You don`t teach them

.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But, Leo, to be fair, you know, I don`t disagree with you. But it`s also not making them powerless. And I think your friend has -- is

trying to empower his son, but I think he may have .

CURTIS: My nephew is far from powerless. If this interview (inaudible), he would tell you himself, he prefers to do that than go and grab a switch

or a bell.

PINSKY: I`m sure of that. I have no doubt about that. That`s my point as well. Thank you, Leo. Thank you panel.

"NANCY GRACE" up next.

END