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Dr. Drew
Doctor Who Treated Prince is Named; Mom Admits Killing Disabled Daughter; Mall Stabber Shot Dead. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 11, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:00:17] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police and DEA agents showed up for a surprise search of Prince`s home yesterday.
This police warrant used to search his Paisley Park home was inadvertently unsealed, and within this, it revealed that a local physician specializing
in family medicine saw Prince the day before he died and another time on two weeks prior. The warrant said he prescribed medication to Prince. It
also says he was on his way to Paisley Park to give the singer some test results when Prince was found dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will get the medical records, right, they will get the pharmacy records, and they will find out what`s really been going on
here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight the pieces are finally coming together. Search warrants obtained by the Los Angeles Times and the Minneapolis Star
Tribune reveal a lot about Prince`s death. I`m broadcasting live from CNN, Columbia Circle here in New York.
Joining me, Anneelise Goetz, attorney. Mark Eiglarsh, attorney SpeaktoMark.com. Dax Holt, reporter with TMZ. Michael Levine, former
undercover DEA agent, PoliceTrialexpert.com and author "Deep Cover." Also we have Kyung Lah, a CNN correspondent who is live at Paisley Park. Kyung,
what is the latest there?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the very latest is exactly what you touched on, Drew, are those search warrants. The search warrant that was
obtained, it was accidentally released, in fact, for a short period of time. The L.A. Times, the Minneapolis Star Tribune grabbing that search
warrant and we`re getting a bit more information about this doctor, a local doctor, Michael Schulenberg, who saw Prince twice in the last few weeks of
his death. He is a family medicine physician here. As far as we know, the only thing that we figured out in this search warrant is that those two
visits, he did conduct some tests, and he showed up here on the morning that Prince was found unresponsive in his elevator to deliver those test
results.
The DEA, the FBI want to figure out what is the source of the opioid prescription pills that were found here on this property. They say at this
point they haven`t turned up a valid prescription that links back up to Prince. They want to try to figure out, Drew, exactly where those pills
came from, what is the source of it. We have reached out to the doctor. He, his lawyer, and we went to multiple addresses. He has not responded to
a request for an interview -- Drew.
PINSKY: Kyung, two things. You said it was the accident that the search warrant got released? I mean, what kind of accident was that, number one,
what happened? And number two, I`m hearing there is no evidence of prescription diversion, meaning this physician is known to have prescribed
directly to Prince. Explain the one, and is the second accurate?
LAH: Let`s talk first about the accidental release. What we have heard, you know, in the immediate days after Prince was found unresponsive in his
elevator when he died, we heard from the sheriff saying that they were going to really put a clamp on this, that all the information was going to
be handled properly. What appears to have happened is a paperwork snafu. We`re talking about multiple agencies, a lot of information being filed
with the court. This was simply an accident and it only happened for a short period of time, and immediately it was clamped down.
That`s why we don`t have the search warrant directly in our hands on our own, because all of that now is back under seal. And that is per the
sheriff, that`s per the investigative agencies here. They don`t want it to come out this way, but it did. And so these two newspapers have it.
That`s why everyone is reporting about this. As far as the valid prescriptions, I think that`s what you`re asking about, whether they were
traced back to Prince, they haven`t come up yet. What we are hearing from sources, a law enforcement official who is familiar with this particular
investigation, that what we know as of yet is that it doesn`t look like Prince was doctor shopping. What they`re looking at specifically is what
is the relationship between this doctor, between Prince and also his inner circle? Was it, perhaps, not doctor shopping, but could it have been other
people obtaining the medicine for him?
PINSKY: Thanks, Kyung, I have something breaking right now. I`m very pleased to welcome Gene Simmons, Kiss bassist, who took a lot of flak for
calling Prince`s death pathetic. In his quote, he is said to have called Prince`s drug use, quote, a personal choice. Gene apologized last night on
Twitter. Gene, thank you for joining us. I guess you got a lot of flak from your family.
GENE SIMMONS, KISS BASSIST REALITY STAR: Yes. It`s too bad it got like that, because I understand it`s a greedy and sensitive, sensitive issue,
and Prince was obviously beloved, as well as he should have been. CNN called me in April to come on and say a few words if I wanted to. So, I
gladly obliged. I met Prince all the way back in the early days and told Diana Ross at that time who I was seeing, let`s go down and see this new
kid, voice, he`s fantastic. So, we went down to see him and all that, but that`s what I was talking about on CNN. And so if anybody wants to Google
what I said or YouTube it, just, you know, put in Gene Simmons, he did it all Prince, CNN, something like that, and you`ll see what I said.
[19:05:35] PINSKY: And Gene, I`m sure your family gave you grief about it. I mean, I understand that`s why --
SIMMONS: Here`s what happened. The history of this, thereafter I did an interview with a British guy, a journalist, and I said, drugs are pathetic.
It is, you know, the height of lunacy for anybody rich and famous, especially, to use drugs, and for people to point, you know, to the sadness
of it all instead of pointing to the problem, which is drugs and alcohol and, you know, abuse. And so I was quoted, but that`s okay. This ain`t
about me. People got upset, but as far as I`m concerned, and the sadness of it is, I never said that about Prince. But you can`t -- once an
interviewer assesses something like that, you can`t take it back. I had to apologized, I hope I didn`t hurt anybody`s feelings, I was misquoted. But
nobody believes that misquoted stuff. So, you know, I basically --
PINSKY: You know, what? I do, I do Gene, and I really appreciate you coming on to straighten it out. The one thing I would say though. One
thing I want to sort of, you and I to hash out here real quickly, there is a big difference of being to why somebody would choose to do drugs and why
somebody loses control over using drugs. One is, you`re right, a sort of choice, and there`s various reasons people do that. But when they lose
control, that`s a biological event at that point. Do you agree with me?
SIMMONS: I`m not qualified to make a comment on it since I`ve never been high or drunk in my life except in a dentist`s chair. So I don`t know the
psychological point of view and never pretended to be anything more than that. What I want to say is that in this political environment, nobody has
got the balls to stand up and say it`s time to stop drugs and alcohol abuse is nonsense, and we`ve got to stop. It`s supposed to be cool, yes, man,
let`s get high, let`s get buzzed. I`m against it.
I`ve always have been and I think it`s ruining civilization. And, of course, as I`m saying this, somebody is going to say, see what he said
about Prince or Michael Jackson or anybody? The unfortunate thing is nobody is -- you know, there`s not enough attention on David Bowie who
sadly got sick, got cancer and died. And Glen Frey who actually had a sickness. No, we`re paying attention and of course it`s sad. But we`re
not pointing to the problem, and that`s drugs and alcohol. And that`s my point of view, and I`m sticking by it.
PINSKY: All right. Gene, I really appreciate it. It takes the best and the brightest. It`s taken another genius from us and hear, hear. Thank
you for coming on. Thank you for calling it out. I appreciate it.
SIMMONS: Thank you.
PINSKY: Next up. This conversation continues, and still to come, a man is released from a psych ward just hours before he kills two people. Speaking
of stop the insanity. He, then, is shot dead. Did this have to happen? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:12:30] PINSKY: Pretty much hundred percent of my patients when they die today don`t die of heroine, don`t die of cocaine, they die of benzoate
and opiate combined as prescribed, high doses, they stopped breathing, I`m suspicious that`s what happened to Prince. If you want to be a doctor and
be a good doctor to your patient who happens to have special needs or happens to be seen in the public, you better not be impressed by that
person, you better treat them exactly like everybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Federal and local authorities descended on Paisley Park where they executed two search warrants, revealing news information about a local
physician who is treating Prince. I`m back with Anneelise, Mark, Dax and Michael. So, Dax, what do you have on this doctor? This guy is new to us.
He`s a new piece of the story. What do we have on him?
DAX HOLT, REPORTER, TMZ: Yes, so Dr. Michael Schulenberg obviously there, he is kind of the main focus right now of this investigation. They`ve gone
in, they have search a search warrant, they have gotten any kind of documentation, records, photos, notes, anything they can get their hands on
because of the tight connection between Prince and this doctor. They worked together over the last couple of years. He treated Prince twice,
once the day before he passed away, and like I heard you guys say, he was there the day that Prince had passed away. He was there to, I guess, give
some test results. But here`s what I can tell you. Our source is saying there is one operating theory going right now, and that is that there`s one
doctor involved.
There are no alias names being used like in the Michael Jackson case, and that they`re all under his real name, all the prescriptions inside at
Paisley Park seems to be under Prince`s birth name. And so, that is a very different side of it than Michael Jackson. The one part of the story that
I think is very interesting is that this Dr. Schulenberg, he has now disappeared from his practice out there in Minnesota. They have taken him
off the website, we don`t know if he was terminated, whether he has decided to quit. No one really knows right now, but I can tell you he`s definitely
the main focus of this investigation.
PINSKY: Interesting. Thank you very much, Dax. Michael, TMZ also reported that Prince obtained painkillers from one physician only, as Dax
was saying. No aliases, no diverting as far as we can tell, yet it seems like the Feds think something is up. What are they sniffing? What are
they after?
MICHAEL LEVINE, FORMER UNDERCOVER DEA AGENT: First of all, let`s begin with the warrant. I read the warrant today. It tells me a lot. It tells
me number one -- and it also tells me why it was leaked. Number one, it tells me that this is a homicide investigation and they`re trying to draw
an evidentiary line from someone to Prince causing his death. Well, the search warrant -- well, it reveals it is not a DEA case. It is a case
being run by the Minneapolis authorities, and I believe that`s why it was leaked, because this always is a battle for credit. And the news seem to
give credit to DEA and the Feds, and this is why, in my opinion, it was leaked.
The missing equation here is Dr. Howard Kornfeld and his son Andrew. Now, according to the news, they were actually -- at least Andrew was caught
with Suboxone in the commission of a federal crime, at least. Now they`ve disappeared. What that tells me is that the DEA -- the former DEA agent,
is that a deal is made. Somebody has been talking. I don`t know that it`s them or him, but having both DEA and the Minneapolis police working
together, it forms a hammer and an anvil. The hammer is homicide, the anvil is drug charges. There are already documented federal drug charges.
As to how many more people are involved, here you have at least two doctors who appear to be directly involved. One on whom you can directly put
drugs, Suboxone, which is sold on the street, by the way. It`s called subway.
PINSKY: Yes, it does. Yes, it does.
LEVINE: It`s heavily abused -- it`s a very abused drug.
PINSKY: Michael, in spite of what the advocates would say, yes, I have people diverting it and using it. That is right. But Mark is doing
jumping jacks over there and I haven`t seen my friend Mark Eiglarsh in a long time, and I`ve never seen ever make the last move you just made off
camera, so I figure I better go to you. You have issues of the warrant. And you do agree of what Michael has just said?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes. OK. Some of what he said, yes, resonated. But what bothers me the most is that this warrant was ever issued. From a
legal perspective, I have a real problem with it. First of all, so people at home really care, understand that there is no separate set of laws that
govern his medical forms and photos and documents being released. It`s the same as the one that governs yours. You don`t want your medical reports
being released, so you should care about this. In this particular case, nothing but innocuous things were listed.
[19:17:26] Police believe that a crime was committed? What is sinister about a doctor seeing Prince on two different days, that he was given test
results, that he prescribed medication to him and Prince had to make an emergency landing? Where is the crime there? If police can get at
people`s personal records based upon those innocuous, generic comments, then they can get at all of ours. I have a problem with that, Drew.
PINSKY: Anneelise, I want to ask you the same thing. And I was going to ask you directly. Do you think they`ll going to be able to get all the
records that they want in this search warrant? I mean, Even though Prince is dead, you can`t just walk into a doctor`s office, can you, and just say,
I want all the records, give them to me?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: No, no, of course you can`t. But I think what they`re doing is an interesting approach here. Because Dr. Drew, you and I
talked about this last week that we`re just waiting to hear about the doctor who actually prescribing the pills. Because, you know, in
California, we have a case where doctor who was charged with murder, convicted of murder because of over prescribing pain pills. And I think
that what they`re going to look at is this doctor and is Prince the only patient that has passed away as a result of pain medications allegedly
being prescribed.
I don`t think this is the end of the story here, especially because he has now disappeared. This is the piece that I think we were missing last week
and we`re now getting more information on, and it will be interesting to see how the case progresses now that we have a physician to actually tie to
where the drugs are coming from.
PINSKY: And Michael, is this more what you were talking about? They said, they`re being a really significant homicide sort of issues at odds being
presented here?
LEVINE: Absolutely. Prince is an iconic figures. There are no more iconic figures as of this date. There is a lot of media attention paid to
it. You have two doctors involved. You have the addiction specialist whose son was caught or surrendered unprescribed, Suboxone. What happened
to them? Why have they disappeared? These are federal crimes. Possession of a scheduled three drug carries a five-year, $10,000 sentence. Why has
they disappeared from the media?
GOETZ: Well, I don`t think they disappeared. We saw them last week, Dr. Drew. They were giving statements, and --
PINSKY: Anneelise, I think Levine is talking about California, that Schulenberg has disappeared. I don`t know if I get his name right. He is
the guy that they can`t find -- his not at his place of employment anymore. They seemed to have lose track after him --
EIGLARSH: Because true -- go figure. If it was my client, I would say hit the road because he`s being attacked because of a warrant that was issued
based upon him treating Prince. Listen, he may have done something sinister, I don`t know. But there is nothing in the four corners of this
warrant that suggests that he did anything criminal. And for that, yes, he`s got to go.
HOLT: PINSKY: And strangely, I agree with my friend Mark Eiglarsh. You would think that I`d be more on Anneelise side, but I`m really --
EIGLARSH: Yes.
HOLT: Yes. I`m sort of on Mark`s side. I`m more concerned about the guy -- Suboxone across the country with towards what were they are going to do
with that? That`s where this gets weird for me.
PINSKY: Next up. We`ve got a lot more to say about this and how Prince died.
And still to come, a man who says the devil made him do things, he kills two people before he is shot dead. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:24:48] SIMMONS: I`ve never been high or drunk in my life except in a dentist chair. So I don`t know the psychological point of view and never
pretended to be anything more than that. What I want to say is that in this political environment, nobody has got the balls to stand up and say
it`s time to stop the God damn madness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Gene Simmons who kindly joined me just a few minutes ago. He was clarifying his position on Prince`s death, having been misquoted.
He really had called it, in some interview it was quoted as having said, "Pathetic" in a Newsweek article. But the fact is he was really clear that
we have been robbed of another treasure, and he`s sick and tired of it. Bottom line. And it`s drugs and alcohol. And it is time we get our handle
on this. And it`s prescription drugs that I want to focus in on because it`s my profession that`s been contributing to that, and that has been
killing people at an uncanny rate.
I`m back with Anneelise, Mark, Michael and Dax. And Dax, what did you hear about Dr. Schulenberg? Was he connected with Kornfeld? Is it possible
that Kornfeld was contacted by Schulenberg to come in for help?
HOLT: You know, I haven`t heard that connection. You know, I know that Prince`s people have reached out to Kornfeld and that was a connection
there that they had said, hey, we need your help. There is a dire situation going on right now, please fly out as quick as you can. He could
not clear his schedule fast enough. That`s why he sent his son Andrew on the plane to Minnesota to be there, but now it comes into question why was
there synthetic opioids in Andrew`s backpack at the time. So I know that is also one of the focuses of this investigation and where Dr. Kornfeld
relationships comes in here. Did they know each other for a long time? Was this a one-time thing that they were going to try to help and get
specialists to get out there to try to talk to Prince? You know, I think these are questions that all need to be answered.
PINSKY: Now, according to the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Dr. Schulenberg was not one of the list of practitioners certified to administer --
Suboxone, and you heard me talking about that with Michael Levine, it`s something that`s used to treat chronic pain, treat addiction to opiates.
But my suspect, Dax, is that Kornfeld was probably going to use Schulenberg to administer the Suboxone that his son was providing, right? I don`t
think we need to say -- a third doctor? Why a third doctor? But why a third doctor? If they`re going to bring in a third doctor, and they want
to bring in a doctor that`s certified, he can get his own Suboxone. He doesn`t need someone mulling across the country.
HOLT: That is my thing. And Andrew himself, the guy that came across state lines with this synthetic opiate not a doctor. So, you know, I think
that`s why all this story is getting so crazy, is because you have to put this whole puzzle together and none of this is really making sense.
PINSKY: Well, kind of he is to me. I mean, Mark, listen, let me ask you about the young man that took this Suboxone Ibuprofen which I would sold
the same stuff across state line. Apparently, with intent to administer, now he himself probably but with the help of some other doctor, there, is
that young man in real serious trouble?
EIGLARSH: It depends. We don`t have all the facts. And by the way, you know, how many times that Suboxone, things was referenced in a warrant.
Zero.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Because it`s not obviously something that police consider to be problematic. Nothing was mentioned that`s problematic. I can`t get off my
soap box on this one. I mean, the court of public opinion --
PINSKY: Hold on! Hold on!
[19:28:17] EIGLARSH: They would love to see Prince`s records just because. That means that police can come and look at our records just because. Is
anyone troubled by this?
PINSKY: Oh, Mark, I`m with you 100 percent on that. I noticed that the Attorney General --
(CROSSTALK)
No, no, but Mark, I`ve noticed how attorneys tend to privilege their records with their clients, but doctors` record, we need to have access
though. But Anneelise, knock him off his soapbox for me, come on.
GOETZ: No, I mean, I understand -- I do want to say where markets coming from. I mean, we don`t want to have our public records be on display for
the world to see. That -- and there isn`t a whole lot in that warrant to justify going in and analyzing them. But, you know, Dr. Drew, we talk all
the time -- we talk all the time on this show about the fact that we have to go after. This is a new problem, this is a new problem that we`re
always talking about. It`s prescription drug abuse, right? And part of a way of addressing it, it`s not just looking to drug dealers on the street,
but looking at drug dealers that are licensed to give the drug.
PINSKY: We`re the ones doing it. We`re the ones doing it all the time. When my patients die, there is a prescription bottle on the bedside, and
it`s not my prescription bottle. And by the way, I am about to do a special --
EIGLARSH: Hey, Drew! Drew?
PINSKY: -- with Anderson Cooper right after we finished this show about this very issue. Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Drew, first of all, I agree with you. I think that some of the doctors, even some that I`ve defended are worse than pushers in the street.
But let me make something clear, you would have evidence for example like this particular doctor is prescribing, you know, opiates that are alarming
rates or on this particular day, pill bottles by the dozen showed up at, you know, at --
PINSKY: Mark, I`m going to disagree with you on this one. I`ve been in your camp.
EIGLARSH: There is nothing there.
PINSKY: I`ve been in your camp. You don`t have to overprescribe or prescribe egregiously to be prescribed you responsibly --
[19:30:06] EIGLARSH: So every doctor who prescribes opiates should somehow have to give up his medical records?
PINSKY: No, no. Did not say that. Did not say that. I said there can be overprescribing without egregious overprescribing. There can be
unenlightened overprescribing --
EIGLARSH: We can agree with that.
PINSKY: All right, finally. I`m feeling the fog. Where`s your fog machine? Next up, a woman admits to killing her severely disabled daughter
because she worried she would not be alive to care for the poor girl. And still to come, three dead, two injured, after a rampage by a man with a
history of psychiatric illness. Why could we not have stopped that? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is almost a year, May of 2015, that Bonnie Liltz admitted to killing her 28-year-old severely disabled
daughter, Courtney. Both were found unconscious at her Schaumberg apartment from an overdose of various medications. Friends say the suicide
note Liltz left behind indicated she feared she`d lose her battle with cancer and didn`t want her daughter to return to an institution where she
had once received poor care. Prosecutors seemed to show an act of mercy, reducing the original charge of first-degree murder to second-degree
involuntary manslaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bonnie Liltz will be sentenced next week. She faces up to 14 years in prison. I`m back with Anneelise and Mark. Joining us, Spirit,
psychotherapist, talk show host, and Vince Gerasole, reporter with News 2 Chicago. Vince, please give us some background on Courtney and an update.
VINCE GERASOLE, REPORTER, NEWS 2 CHICAGO: Well, Courtney Liltz was 28 years old at the time of her death, but she spent almost her entire life,
24 of those years, in the care of Bonnie Liltz. She was born with a significant case of cerebral palsy. She couldn`t walk, she could barely
communicate, wasn`t able to feed herself, couldn`t wash herself. It was Bonnie who stepped in and did all of that. Her birth mother gave her up
for adoption. There was another family that came forward and tried to care for her but they couldn`t, and that is when Bonnie stepped in. Now the
sentencing hearings were held yesterday and today. Twenty-four people came forward, nine of them in court, the rest in written testimony, and they all
echoed pretty much the same thought. They said, if it wasn`t for Bonnie coming forward and caring for her daughter, spending just about every
single moment of her life next to her, most likely she would have been institutionalized.
PINSKY: And Vince, Bonnie`s health issues have become rather dire of late as well, correct?
GERASOLE: Yes, well actually, she suffered significant health problems for most of her life. She battled ovarian cancer twice and it left lingering
effects. It impacted her intestines, it also impacted her bowels. She suffered with diarrhea for more than 20 years. She had to have a
hysterectomy, couldn`t have children of her own, and she was also never able to weigh more than 100 pounds. But ironically, these health
situations kind of sort of bonded her to her daughter. In prepared testimony today, she actually took a look at her daughter. She talked
about seeing her daughter for the very first time, holding her in her arms and their eyes meeting. And Dr. Drew, I want to read this to you. This is
what Bonnie said in court today. She said, I cared for her like no one else in the world could understand, for she allowed me to be a mother to
someone who loved me as much as I loved her. That is the back story for the significant step she took when she tried to take her own life and also
took her daughter`s life.
PINSKY: Thank you, Vince. Now Spirit, that was a very telling statement. Do we say there that this woman is so narcissistically charged that it is
all about her, that it`s her reflection in the eyes of that child, and when she`s not there, this child is not allowed to be there, either?
SPIRIT, TALK SHOW HOST: I love you, Dr. Drew. Goodness gracious, that is exactly what this is, because everyone is looking at this like, oh, it was
a mercy killing, that no one in the world would be able to care for her like her mother. But this is murder. That is the bottom line. Her
thoughts were so distorted, Dr. Drew, that she said that I am the only person in the entire world that could ever love and care for this child in
the right way. So if I`m not here, then she doesn`t deserve to be here either.
PINSKY: Now Mark, now although Spirit and I are using our little clinical way of speaking about this, there is a factual issue here -- a factual
phenomenon at issue here, which is if that mom dies, this kid is going into a state institution. She doesn`t just have cerebral palsy, she has got a
destroyed brain. From what I read from the attorney, she has encephalopathy, she has developmental disorders -- she is going to be in
misery at best, at worse, broken down with her skin eroding, her bowels protruding because of the degree to which this kid could break down. Isn`t
there a practical matter at issue here as well?
EIGLARSH: Without question. Let me just say, you went into the wrong profession. That was a wonderful argument. I will borrow that for the
next time I`m trying to mitigate in court. That was very passionate, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you.
EIGLARSH: I agree with you 100 percent, but I also agree with Spirit. At the end of the day, this is murder.
PINSKY: Stop, stop, stop! No, stop. Because I agree with Spirit, too, but I`m saying, isn`t there a practical issue here of compassion being
carried out by that mom? Is there actually a real issue there as well?
EIGLARSH: Yes, but you stopped me on murder because it is murder. The state reduced it down to voluntary manslaughter, and I applaud them for
doing that. They did that, I think, recognizing the mitigation that you brought up. It`s mitigation. It doesn`t negate her guilt, it mitigates
it. So instead of looking at 30 years in prison, she`s now looking at a maximum of 14. She could get probation, so the issue is whether she should
get probation. And I`ll tell you something, I`m a defense lawyer, if she`s my client, I say, absolutely. But as a human being, there is a certain
value to a life and she really screwed up here. And you know what, I`m not yelling and screaming if she gets a couple of years in prison. I`m not.
[19:40:13] SPIRIT: Both of your arguments are presumptive.
PINSKY: Hold on. I know but I want to get AnneElise`s opinion, too. We`ve all sort of said our piece and we`re all uncomfortable with this.
AnneElise, where do you fall?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: It`s uncomfortable, Dr. Drew, you nailed it. But, I -- surprisingly, I`m going to take a more lenient position than Mark
on this. Usually, I`m on the side of the prosecutors. I think the mere fact they took murder charges, they brought it down to involuntary
manslaughter -- there is the ability to use probation in this case, and when you`re looking at, is this woman a threat to society? What was her
character? What was her history? This is the type of case that we should be doing probation as opposed to putting her in jail. Yes, yes, yes,
involuntary manslaughter -- yes, she should be charged and convicted of involuntary manslaughter, but I think the taxpayers should not be putting
this woman behind bars, and with all of her medical issues, it just doesn`t make sense. This is a woman that loved, loved, loved her child, and loved
what she did.
PINSKY: One at a time. Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: You`re giving her -- she`s advocating the same penalty for this woman as some of my clients who get probation for stealing a car. Somebody
died, an oopsie, mom didn`t go away. She thought she was going to die. There`s a certain value to the death --
PINSKY: Hold it, hold it, hold it. Turn these two mics off. Spirit, last thought here. I`ve got to go to break.
SPIRIT: Are we saying, then, are we setting a precedence here to say that any parent who is no longer able to care for their children, they can go
ahead and kill their child because they won`t be here to take care of them no matter how much they love them? No one else would be able to do the
job? Think about the precedent that we`re setting with the arguments that we`re making today. Ridiculous.
PINSKY: All right. We`ve got to go to break. This, the failed murder/suicide is difficult even for the mother`s attorney to comprehend.
We will hear from him. And still to come, four people stabbed, the suspect shot dead. Why was he let out of a psychiatric ward hours before the
attack? We`ll hear from his family after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:46:28] PINSKY: Bonnie Liltz pleaded guilty for involuntary manslaughter for having killed her disabled daughter in a failed
murder/suicide. She`ll be sentenced next week, faces a maximum of 14 years in a prison.
CNN affiliate WGN spoke with her attorney. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never had a case like this in 22 years of practice, both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney. I have to say,
this is one of the saddest cases that I`ve ever dealt with, as you`ve heard today, from one after the other, they truly, truly cared for one another,
and there simply was no help for this woman to turn to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with AnneElise, Mark, Spirit. Now Mark, we all agree this is a sad case, but Spirit brought up a very important point up as we were
going out to break which was, we are allowing the precedent to be set that a parent is allowed to kill a child if the parent`s assessment is that
child can`t be taken care of in his or her absence.
EIGLARSH: I agree. I think that every case sets a precedent for lawyers like myself who come after this case to say, but in this case, she got
probation. At least my client should get, you know, a year or two based on these facts. It sets a precedent. On a death case like this, there should
always be a certain amount of punitive punishment there to reflect the severity of what was done.
PINSKY: And Spirit, the context of this case is important, too. There`s different ways to look at this. Is it broken parent or broken system? In
other words, this woman had cancer, she was dying, she thought she was dying, and she couldn`t trust a system to adequately care for her daughter,
and again, I think she has a point.
SPIRIT: Well, she definitely has a point, Dr. Drew, but the point where she says, no one else can do it because of past history, just is not
acceptable. But I do agree that the system is broken. It is overloaded and we do need help. As a parent, I sympathize and I empathize, Dr. Drew,
but at the end of the day, the question is, does she deserve to be punished? As if the punishment that she`s going to live with for the rest
of her life is not going to be enough.
GOETZ: And that is what --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What would I give her?
EIGLARSH: Yes. What do you think?
PINSKY: I`m really uncomfortable with the way --
EIGLARSH: Objection, not responsive. Objection, not responsive. I want to know what you give her, judge Drew.
PINSKY: Something real, like a year or two. But AnneElise, you tell me.
GOETZ: I think that Spirit hit the nail on the head when she said, she is going to be dealing with this for the rest of her life. The guilt and the
punishment is what`s going to happen to her. And I think when you`re looking at -- we have involuntary manslaughter, which in Illinois, is
usually two to five years is what you`re looking at, unless you have extenuating circumstances. And you guys, in 2015, a woman got the 30 month
probation period for shooting a guy in the face, and that was acceptable, and you`re saying this is not? I feel like this is the epitome of
extenuating --
EIGLARSH: You`re leaving out a few facts on that case.
SPIRIT: What`s extenuating here?
(CROSSTALK)
GOETZ: You look at the character --
PINSKY: Everybody`s mic is off. Sorry. Everybody`s mic is off. AnneElise, good point. The care to the offender is, what is that issue
here, and we see both sides that we`re worried she`s excessively narcissistic, we`re also worried that she was excessively distressed as a
parent and was appropriate in her judgment. Both are true, but it`s still murder, or manslaughter, in this case.
[19:50:07] Next, I have another tragedy. This is the hands of a man whose relatives say he was psychiatrically severely ill. He randomly stabbed
four people. Didn`t have to happen. Killed two of them. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is 28-year-old Arthur A.J. DaRosa. In one breath, called a good father, and in the next accused in a deadly stabbing
rampage in Taunton.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For him to do something like that, it has to be something that went wrong with him because he`s not like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn`t over until an off duty sheriff`s deputy took out his gun, shooting and killling DaRosa. DaRosa`s family says he
was mentally ill. So sick, they say, he went to the hospital Monday but was let out hours later.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went to the hospital trying to get help, said he was going to kill himself, and they sent him home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:55:02] PINSKY: The man who terrorized the Boston suburbs stabbing homeowners, shoppers at a local mall. He had left a hospital just hours
before this deadly rampage. His family says he was suicidal, he was having auditory hallucinations, meaning he was hearing voices, and the hospital
let him go. Back with AnneElise, Mark, and Spirit, A.J. DaRosa`s family called an ambulance for him Monday, believing he was suicidal, on Tuesday,
discharged. By the end of the night, he had killed two people. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person who discharged A.J. from Morton Hospital couldn`t even get his name right on the discharge papers. He wasn`t
treated for his mental sickness , yet they treated him for something else. It`s a disgrace how someone goes in for help and wants help and no one else
does nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, let me tell you about a little dirty secret about psychiatric hospitals, you ready? Because I`m going to ask you who is to
blame. Here is a game that insurance companies play. I was in a psychiatric hospital, I was a staff member there for 25 years, and here was
the game. The game was, doctor, your patient doesn`t meet criteria, our criteria as an insurance company. He doesn`t meet our criteria for
continued hospitalization. We are going to withdraw funds. Any further hospitalization, you`re going to burden your patient with the financial
responsibility for any further hospitalization. You go to the patient, you say, you should stay. They refuse, they don`t want to pay for it. You
write the discharge, the patient kills himself or somebody else, the insurance company says, we don`t practice medicine, the doctor`s name is
right there on the discharge. So who do we blame? The hospital? The doctor? The insurance company? What do we do with this?
EIGLARSH: Maybe everybody. I had a client actually get discharged early. His family put him in and this month, as soon as he gets out, he jumps from
a 20-storey building and kills himself. So, you know, in certain instances, these psych places are responsible. They don`t do a thorough
enough investigation, or in sometimes, they look and they say, OK, he`s stable now, it`s time for him to go, and look what he does. And we can
throw in the insurance companies. I don`t mind blaming them sometimes, too.
PINSKY: Joining me on the phone, Owen Boss, executive city editor for the "Boston Herald". Owen, this rampage started long before the incident at
the mall. Take me through this.
OWEN BOSS, EXECUTIVE CITY EDITOR, THE BOSTON HERALD (via telephone): Yes, it sounds like he was at a practice for his daughter, a soccer practice in
Taunton and witnesses there tell "The Herald" that he had a sudden mood swing, started mumbling to himself, crying, got in his car and sped away,
and they actually heard a car accident right up the street. Apparently left his vehicle, went into a nearby house and killed an 80-year-old woman,
attacked her daughter, and then as everyone knows, he drove over to the mall and crashed through the front of a Macy`s and continued his rampage
there.
PINSKY: Owen, thank you. Just an awful story. And Spirit, you must have had this experience I`ve had of frustration, of knowing that a patient
shouldn`t be discharged and yet being helpless and putting your name to the page because there`s nothing else you can do.
SPIRIT: And that`s not even inpatient for me, Dr. Drew, it`s outpatient with the same frustration, cannot get the authorizations needed to continue
to see the clients. We have to get our communities to learn the five signs, Dr. Drew, #changementalhealth, because everybody has to be a part
of this conversation. We can`t leave it up to the insurance companies anymore.
PINSKY: And AnneElise -- I couldn`t say it better, Spirit. AnneElise, again, this is the same conversation I have about access to guns, community
safety versus individual rights, I think we`ve gone too far on the side of individual rights to the point -- you think this guy is happier now? Had
his rights were protected, he didn`t have to stay on hold, you think he`s happy now?
GOETZ: You just nailed it, Dr. Drew, because that was going to be my point. This happened in Massachusetts. In California, we have the 72 hour
hold, because we do balance the safety of the individuals, safety of society, with the rights of the privacy, the rights to leave the hospital.
And we want to have the ability to have the involuntary hold when you`re talking about someone that`s a threat to themselves or a threat to society
and I don`t know if that wasn`t available in Massachusetts, but from what they`re saying to me, it`s touch and go. This guy should have been held.
PINSKY: I`m telling you what happened. He met criteria --
SPIRIT: Hey guys, does he get probation?
PINSKY: Right, exactly. But here`s my thing -- the commercialization of medicine. It`s the putting the medical decision making in hands other than
the clinicians. It`s why we have the opiate precipitation medication problem we have, is because doctors can get muscled into that, insurance
companies don`t want to pay for the hard work of abstinence care, they find people that just will administer medication, it`s cheap, it`s easy, it`s
fast, gets people off the books, that`s the problem.
I`m going to be joining Anderson Cooper in about an hour for a town hall meeting on this very issue, but here yet is another area in which
disempowering the clinicians, empowering commercialization, results in adverse outcome.
Thanks for watching. Nancy Grace up next.
END
