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Dr. Drew
Sinead O`Connor`s Alarming Behavior Causes Fans And Police To Worry; Frightening Update On Sinead O`Connor, Found One Day After Vanishing Outside Of Chicago; A Husband With A History Of Violence Charged With Killing His Pregnant Wife And Unborn Fetus; George Zimmerman Lashing Out At The Parents Of Trayvon Martin; Update on A Mother Who Killed Her Own Daughter. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 18, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:14] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Is Sinead O`Connor in danger? The singer`s questionable behavior and a series of
alarming Facebook posts have caused fans and police to worry. On Sunday, she left for a bike ride in leather pants, then vanished for 24 hours.
After she turned up the next day, posts written in first person on her Facebook page described her as someone who suffers from mental conditions
with symptoms that include, quote, "Suicidal Compulsion."
The post also accused her family of abandoning her for being, quote, "Suicidal." Just six months ago on the same page, there was a declaration
that she had taken an overdose because of, quote, "a horrific set of betrayals."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Frightening update on Sinead O`Connor, who was found one day after vanishing outside of Chicago. Tonight, there are new questions. What
about this bizarre behavior and should we be concerned?
Joining me, Jena Kravitz, Clinical Psychologist. Mark Geragos, maybe with me in a minute. I also have Dylan Howard, Editorial Director, "Radar
Online." Dylan, the Facebook posts include tirades against her family. What can you tell me about the family is reaction?
DYLAN HOWARD, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR RADAR ONLINE, (via phone): They were deathly silent in the like of her missing -- disappearance on Sunday.
Publicist, managers, lawyers, her own family silent and refusing to respond to requests for comment about what is being done, if anything, to help her
up.
What I can tell you, Dr. Drew, is that what we are getting a window into is still a deeply unhappy individual about the current state of her life. As
you mentioned at the top of the program, in these most recent Facebook posts, the woman in first person believed to be Sinead O`Connor is seen
lashing out at her father, who she calls, quote, a chauvinist bully who mistreated her mother.
He attacked one of her ex-lovers, and they are named John Reynolds and their son, Jake Reynolds, 28, whom she labels evil. She accuses all of
these individuals of, quote, torturing her, exacerbating her mental illness. She threatens to sue them and she also threatened suicide.
PINSKY: And, Dylan, I know that is what she is claiming, but I keep hearing the family has been desperately trying to help her and they have
sort of thrown up their hands. There is only so much they can do. Is that accurate or is that rumor?
HOWARD: We are hearing that type of speculation additionally, Dr. Drew. What is being done behind the scene perhaps could be different than what is
going on publicly. Though publicists, managers and lawyers have been silent as representatives of her, there is a desperate attempt behind the
scene as we understand it from those very close to Sinead O`Connor, trying to get her help, the help she so desperately apparently needs.
PINSKY: Thanks, Dylan. Now, Jena, as a clinician when we assess somebody, particularly, in a mental health setting, sometimes how we as an individual
responds to the patient informs us about the diagnostic situation. Now, you and I -- None of us know this woman, but we can still have reactions as
human beings, and as clinicians, we read that reaction. How do we react?
JENA KRAVITZ, PSY.D., NEUROPSYCHOLOGIST: You know, Dr. Drew, I have never treated Sinead O`Connor. I do not know her. But I can tell you that other
people who have walked into my office with a similar presentation, chaotic, dramatic, I always kind of check with myself. Because if I feel annoyed or
frustrated with this patient, first of all, it means that other people are receiving her the same way.
And, more often than not, it typically reflects some sort of underlying personality disorder. But, you know, with Sinead O`Connor, it is possible
that there is an underlying personality disorder with overlays of things like bipolar and PTSD, things we have seen before.
PINSKY: All right. Now, we have seen before and she, herself, has brought up. At one point she did an interview, where she said she was being
treated for bipolar. At another point she said, "Oh, no. They were wrong, I have PTSD."
And, the reality is, I know, we get too deep in the weeds, but the personality issue of sort of borderline disorders, bipolar disorder, which
is unregulated mood, wild mood fluctuations, and then post-traumatic stress disorder. These three phenomenon are often interrelated, so it is possible
she could have all three.
KRAVITZ: Yes, it sort of muddies the waters. But, these comorbidities really come in. Her presentation of unstable behavior, the self-harm, the
threat to self-harm, it all is kind of a package deal.
PINSKY: Now, she inserted herself into the whole Prince story. She accused Arsenio Hall of having supplied drugs, then Arsenio sued for $5
million. She came back with this quote. "Regarding Arsenio Hall`s laughable threats, I look forward very much how hilarious it will be,
watching him try to prove me wrong. Dylan, do we have anymore update on this?
[19:05:05] HOWARD: Well, Dr. Drew, I can tell you that Arsenio Hall`s legal team is very aggressive about this. As soon thereafter she posted
that rant about Prince and Arsenia Hall, she slapped with the $5 million lawsuit. It begs the question exactly what is going to happen here.
I mean, clearly, you have an individual who has lashed out, made some serious allegations against another famous individual with seemingly very
little proof. And, it begs the question of what is going to happen, whether this lawsuit will continue or, indeed, whether she will be on the
receiving end of the help that as I said she so desperately apparently needs.
PINSKY: Oh, for sure. And, you know, again, our hearts go out to this woman. These are really serious medical symptoms we are all watching here.
I understand people are maybe irritated or maybe having a reaction, where they feel like she is attention seeking, but make no mistake about it.
These are serious medical symptoms. And, really check yourself if something awful happens to her, remember this, that you felt that you sat
in judgment of someone who is struggling. Dylan, one last thing. When somebody gets involved in a big project, often there is a lot money risk,
as often insurance carriers involved. Can she even be employed?
HOWARD: No. I mean that is the harsh reality in the celebrities phenomenon, that is 2016. In the wake of many of the allegations labelled
against individuals such as Bill Cosby.
The ability for these high-performing high-powered celebrities to get cured remains almost impossible for them to be able to achieve that. And Sinead
O`Connor, as great a singer as she was, seemingly is facing a race against time to re resurrect her life, let alone her career.
PINSKY: Next up, an incredible story. A husband with a history of violence, well documented, charged with killing his pregnant wife and her
unborn fetus.
And, still to come, is George Zimmerman the most hated man in America? Well, tonight, he is contributing to that moniker. He is attacking, of all
people, Trayvon Martin`s grieving parents. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Eight days before she was killed, Lyuba posted this video. She shared lots of happy photos. But investigators say
those were merely flashes. Lyuba had an order of protection and a charge of domestic violence against her husband.
Investigators say she was far from safe, noting that Yevgeniy Savenok showed up Saturday morning, put his kids in the car. The former college
wrestler tackled his wife, as her sister ran for help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE FREEMAN, HENNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY: The horrible violence he stabs her in the chest and in the stomach knowing that she is carrying his baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Police say the 23-year-old then-pregnant mother with two toddlers was stabbed 12 times. Physicians performed an emergency caesarean section
to try to save the child, but that child died just moments after birth.
Lyuba`s husband charged with two counts of first-degree murder. We will speaker to her brother in just a moment. I am back with Jena. Joining us,
Yodit Tewolde, former Dallas County Prosecutor, presently Criminal Defense Attorney. And, on the phone, Investigative Reporter Victoria Taft.
Victoria, this couple has just a problematic past. Tell me about that.
VICTORIA TAFT, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, (via phone): Well, they got married in 2010 and they were fairly young. Here was an 18-year-old girl. who was
marrying the star wrestler and honor student from arguably the finest Christian college in the united states. But then things got pretty bad.
In 2012 and 2013, they had two years of birthing babies and they had two years of marriage before the kids came along. But then in 2014, when she
has two small littles that she called them, to take care of, that is when things got real dicey and that is when the cops came in, and that is when
it got really bad.
Four times in August of that year, she filed for problems and eventually filed an order of protection, and one of the times in that month, Dr. Drew,
was the fact that she had felt that by taking away her telephone, her identification and her car keys that he was trying to keep her from feeling
supported. And, in fact, she said, "He took those things to keep me feeling alone, helpless and scared.
PINSKY: Classic.
TAFT: And, then, she later got the guts to file for divorce and then withdrew it the next year.
PINSKY: According to court documents, Yevgeniy Savenok was scheduled to go to trial next week for 2015 domestic assault. Law enforcement says despite
their efforts, this woman continued to live with this man. Joining me now, Mark Geragos, Criminal Defense Attorney.
Mark, I know you are handicapped somewhat by what is going on by an auditory standpoint. I appreciate you trying to overcome the technical
issues. Documented assault, protective orders, what is it take to get somebody out of a domestic violence situation?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it kind of reminds me when you talk about addiction with substance abuse and things like that, at
a certain point you can do -- or the people around you in your orbit can do whatever they can do.
But at a certain point, the person themselves has to want to. And, if they do not want to, there is no amount of the criminal justice system absent
removing that person and giving them a no bail situation that is going to solve the problem. And, even then, I cannot tell you how many times I have
seen and you have seen, Drew --
PINSKY: Yes.
GERAGOS: -- the spouse, whoever that may be, the battered person, just will not cooperate. And, so, it is a fundamental problem, and you just
cannot -- you know, sometimes the criminal justice system cannot solve all ills.
PINSKY: Right. And, Jena, at Mark`s point is a great one. It is very much like addiction because somebody is thinking becomes adulterated by the
very person, who you are trying to extract them from just the way the drugs affecting the drug addict. The relationship, this coercive controlling
relationship is what actually causes somebody not willing to leave.
[19:15:10] KRAVITZ: Right, it is this interdependence probably between the two, Dr. Drew. There are some things that she still got that marriage
that need her feel good. Now, you know, I think this is actually an opportunity to talk about domestic violence as a problem in this country,
all over the world, in fact.
That on in four women are reporting domestic violence in their lifetime and that there is an opportunity to get help and shelter and remove yourself
from this situation. This is not the first time we have talked about this.
PINSKY: No. Of course, these coercive situations are terribly common. Now, I want to show of video from Lyuba`s Facebook page. It shows the
alleged killed as well as their 4-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter.
Lyuba posted that video just eight days before she and the unborn child were killed. Yodit, I will let you ring in on this. These domestic
violent situations are, unfortunately, altogether too common. How do we educate people? How do we get people to understand when they are in a
coercive controlling relationship that will end in trouble?
YODIT TEWOLDE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean I do not know what we can say if these example, these murders are not examples enough. I mean, like
Mark said, it is so hard to prosecute a case when you have a victim who is unwilling to cooperate.
As a former prosecutor, I went on very, very few cases without victims because I needed to go forward with people who were repeat offenders, but
they knew how to manipulate the system and knew that if their victim did not comply or did not cooperate then they were, you know, scot free. They
went scot free. But, it bothers me that this woman had a protective order in place.
PINSKY: Yes.
TEWOLDE: And people assume that, that is all that they need. I mean what is she supposed to do, throw a piece of paper at him when he comes at her?
It is not enough.
PINSKY: Well, she did, but you know, what we always look at is the top four priorities in situations like this is get them separated, get the
woman out of the home. On the phone, I have Alex Katane. He is Lyuba`s brother. Alex, I am so sorry that this tragedy has be falling your family.
It is breathtaking.
ALEX KATANE, BROTHER OF MURDER VICTIM: Thank you, thank you.
PINSKY: Were you aware of your brother-in-law`s history of domestic violence?
KATANE: You know, you folks are talking about #DomesticViolence and are creating an aura cause around domestic violence. But asking me about
warning signs about Yevgeniy and concerning domestic violence does not scratch the surface at all.
The problem is, my brother-in-law did not operate out of nowhere and become a murderer. These people are cultivated. They are raised by families.
They are raised by their educational institutions and they are chronic bullies from a very young age.
I knew him. My friends knew him. My family knew him and all along, the signs were there. And, they start small, and they turn big and this is
what it comes down to.
PINSKY: Alex, you are 100 percent right. 100 percent right.
KATANE: So, do not -- please, please, please do not make this about domestic violence.
PINSKY: Well, but understand --
KATANE: This is about raising appropriate human beings.
PINSKY: Alex, well, I understand that, but it is the very appearance of being powerful that attracts people to these folks, and that powerful
bully, whom which they believe is going to protect them turns on them. That is what happens. Now, your sister was also there when this also
happened. What was she exposed to?
KATANE: My sister was a supporting -- my sister was a family member that really supported Lyuba. Lyuba confided to her at great deal. She was over
at the house many times in the mornings and the afternoons and evenings, helping with the kids. And, she happened to be there that morning. And,
we as a family are super -- I mean, we are counting our blessings in terms of the fact that she is alive.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And, there is a GoFundMe page. Can you please tell me about that?
KATANE: Lyuba was passionate about her children. She had a lot of passions but her main focus was enriching the lives of her kids every
single day. And, our goal with the GoFundMe page is to raise money for her funeral expenses as we celebrate her life, and we are working on setting up
different trust funds and accounts in order to accommodate the kids` short- term and long-term goals in terms of education and well-being.
PINSKY: Alex, we will look towards that GoFundMe page. I am sorry, I agree with what you are suggesting that we must identify people early and
not let this unfold that it is upon all of us. I agree with you on that. I am going to speak to a domestic violence survivor. She is here after the
break with answers and insights.
[19:20:00] And, still to come, George Zimmerman Just cannot keep his mouth shut. This time, lashing out at the parents of Trayvon Martin. Back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN CAPTIONED VIDEO CLIP)
"Lyuba Savenok was seven months pregnant when she was fatally stabbed Saturday morning. Her unborn child also died."
"Police say the killer is her husband, "Eugene" Savenok."
(END CAPTIONED VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEMAN: Mr. Savenok apparently is having a long period of time of domestic violence with his wife. The horrible violence. He walks to her,
talks to her, pulls out a knife and stabs her numerous times.
And, he stabs her in the chest and in the stomach knowing that she is carrying his baby. He says things like, "I knew that she was pregnant. I
was trying to kill her." It passes all understanding how one human being can be that way to another human being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:03] PINSKY: Tonight, Eugene Savenok is charged with two counts, first-degree murder for the death of his wife and the unborn child. She
was pregnant when he allegedly stabbed her. Back with Jena, Mark and Yodit.
Now, Mark, the baby technically survived outside the womb, so is that what allowed the state was able to push for murder for the child as well, or
would it had been murdered even if that child had not been born, technically?
GERAGOS: In most jurisdictions, all you do is get to the age of viability. And, so, there may be a fight about that once you are inside the courtroom,
but basically if the development is such that the fetus is then deemed to be viable, then that is a separate count of murder, and that is in most
jurisdictions.
There are some notable exceptions. But here in California, for instance, I both defended and prosecuted cases involving a mother and a child, and that
is the fight that you usually have.
PINSKY: According to Chicago Tribune, a protective order Lyuba filed in 2014 details an alleged assault by the husband, which she described as a,
quote, "45-minute wrestling bout that left her bloodied, bruised."
Online records indicate that her husband was on a college wrestling team. Jena, now -- so, we are looking at the husband now. Is there anything -- I
cannot -- you know, you cannot -- I get a little -- I am not sure I would even do this. You know, I think about things like bipolar disorder. We
talk about personality disorders, but this is criminality, is it not?
KRAVITZ: It is. I, too, was sort of looking through his history to see what I could find, and I think what Lyuba`s brother said is a good
indication of, you know, maybe a good indication of who he was. And, you know, certainly, was there an episode of sociopathy? It looks like it.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: I mean it is not normal to want to stab your pregnant wife.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Right. No. You are right. It belies an absolutely empathic failure, and inability to understand anything outside of your own sphere.
Everything is about you. So, whether people do not really have idea it exist, so it then becomes axiomatic that you can take their life if you
wish.
Now, according to the national coalition of domestic violence, murder is the second most common cause of injury-related death for pregnant women.
Car accidents are number one. Yodit, this is not surprising, is it? It is a vulnerable period during pregnancy.
TEWOLDE: Absolutely, and it shows how -- what a coward this person is and abusers are. They want to keep the wife, the girlfriend, the significant
other in a vulnerable position in order to overpower them to show that power that they have over them. And, yes, why not attack a woman when they
are pregnant? Absolutely, it is a show of weakness, so that they can feel strong.
PINSKY: On the phone, I have Christina Dalpiaz. She is a domestic violence survivor, also an expert. All right, so, Christina, pregnancy is
one of the leading causes of death, is violence in men. And, you know, usually, these guys are systematic in how they demean somebody and gain
coercion and control over them, no?
CHRISTINA DALPIAZ, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR & EXPECT: That is absolutely correct. They are so fearful, and in the case of pregnant women, the women
are starting to put their focus on the baby. And, so, for a temporary stay, he does not have control over her mind.
She is able to distract herself and feel joy and happiness, and part of the cycle of this is extortion. He wants her to be afraid, and it sounds like
what I saw in some of the articles is that she was getting her life together. She was studying to be a real estate agent. She was already
leaving him emotionally and he got afraid.
He was afraid and he had to get the control back. He said something to the effect that, "She was going to take away my kids." And, I think what that
really means is, "She was going to take away my domination. She was going to take away my one bargaining chip that I could keep to keep her in
control."
PINSKY: You have been through this personally. When did your ex escalate with you?
DALPIAZ: The day after we got married. He put his dish in the sink instead of the dishwasher, and I said, "What are you doing?" He said,
"Now, that we are married, you can do that." And, it just went downhill from there where I had knives put to my throat.
And, I came home 15 minutes late from work one day, and he had taken a shotgun and blew out all the kitchen cabinets. And he kept telling me,
"You know, if you would just talk nicer to me, or if you would say it this way."
So, I would try desperately to do it the way he wanted. And, one day, I repeated verbatim what he told me to say, and he destroyed the whole
bathroom, and I thought I was going to lose my life.
PINSKY: That was your bottom.
DALPIAZ: He broke my --
PINSKY: That was your bottom, right?
DALPIAZ: Yes.
PINSKY: That is where you got out.
DALPIAZ: Yes.
PINSKY: Christina, do you agree with what the victim here -- her brother was saying that we all have a role to play in this in terms of cultivating
these kinds of circumstances of abusers?
[19:30:07] DALPIAZ: I absolutely do. In the works that I have been doing, I have taken the word victim and perpetrator out because victims do
not want to be ashamed of who they are, and they want to protect their abuser. So, I have been using the words unhealthy habits, unhealthy
behaviors, and I am here to make things better, not to judge you.
And, I think that has worked remarkably well because they want to protect their family. They do not want to feel like they are stupid. And, I think
that the role that we play in judging them -- I mean, this guy had a restraining order. In my opinion, he had a job he probably went to. Why
did not they pick him up?
When he showed up on the Facebook page, why did not they pick him up? We are putting police officers on back streets to collect ticket money when
they could be out picking up these people, who are actually doing this to families and hurting their children.
PINSKY: Christina, thank you. Next up, George Zimmerman Sells the gun he used to kill Trayvon Martin. Then he tees off on Trayvon`s parents.
And, still to come, loving mom or cold-blooded killer? A judge throws the book at the mom, who took her daughter`s life. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:33] UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: George Zimmerman putting the gun up for auction that he used to kill Trayvon Martin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN CRUMP, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: It is offensive, it is outrageous and it is insulting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The emotions run high when we talk about this issue and that gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD UNDERWOOD, AUCTION SITE OWNER: This is not about George Zimmerman for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUMP: It is like he is shooting and killing Trayvon all over again four years later with this attempt to auction off this gun like it is some kind
of trophy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNDERWOOD: This is about the second amendment and standing firm for individual rights as adults to make their own decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bad behavior tonight. George Zimmerman, of course, Trayvon Martin`s killer is criticizing the dead teenager`s parents in an interview
with the "Daily Beast." Zimmerman says, quote, "They did not raise their son right. He attacked a complete stranger and attempted to kill him."
Back with Jena, Mark and Yodit. Joining me via skype, Crystal Wright, public relations executive, conservative commentator and founder of the
website, conservativeblackchick.com.
Now, we always said we would see more of who Zimmerman is. Mark, it is sort of like O.J. Simpson, you kind of see more of who he is over time.
And, my office has been throwing around lots of terms. Is he sick or is he a sap or is he ill or is he an a-hole? These are sort of -- Which is it?
This guy is sick or is he a bad dude?
GERAGOS: I do not -- it certainly not criminal for him to do it. It may be felony. The height of felony bad taste to sell the gun or auction it
off, and then to insult the parents. I met both of them. They are wonderful people. They hardly -- they hardly deserve that kind of
heartache.
I mean nobody ever wants to lose a child and then have the person who is responsible insulting them on top of it. I mean, it is just maybe the
height of bad taste. I do not know if he is sick. I do know that when people go through this, when they go through being a pariah, when they go
through all this public condemnation, they tend to react poorly.
And, you mentioned O.J., I can think of a lot of other people who have gone through that, and they just never recover. Clearly, this is an example of
that. He is probably desperate for money, he does not get it, and you know, what can you do except publicly shame him more, and I do not think
that is going to do anything.
PINSKY: But, Crystal, felony, bad taste?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR (via Skype): Look, I think selling the gun is probably not in the greatest of taste. I think the
people -- whoever buys the gun is also a gross person. But he has a right to do it, and to your other guest`s point, he probably needs the money.
As far as his comments, he is right. I do not think Trayvon Martin`s parents spent a lot of time raising him. They were busy leading their
lives, and the night that he was shot in Sanford, his father was out with his girlfriend. And his father was staying at his girlfriend`s
condominium.
I mean, look, we have been through this over and over again, Dr. Drew. I am not going to change what I feel about this. I think it is sad the young
man is no longer with us, but it was a lack of strong parenting that led to his demise.
PINSKY: Yodit --
WRIGHT: Now, George Zimmerman --
PINSKY: Hold on.
WRIGHT: -- is George Zimmerman --
TEWOLDE: I am disgusted.
WRIGHT: So, you know, this is not about Black Lives Matter and all this other nonsense. President Obama decided to make Trayvon Martin the black
teen du jour. Meanwhile, you have blacks killing young black teens in Chicago and Philadelphia and D.C. Every day, right this moment, you have
young, black people being slain and nobody cares about them. They are nameless to the rest of America.
PINSKY: Yodit?
TEWOLDE: That argument is so tired and I am tired of hearing about it. We are talking about this particular case right now. Trayvon Martin`s parents
were not on trial as, you know, the greatest parents on earth or not, OK? That is not the point.
The point is this guy, George Zimmerman, is clearly demonstrating a behavior that could actually make me question his parents and how they
brought him up. That is the point. And, it is disgusting to sit here and try to attack the family members and to throw dirt on Trayvon Martin`s
name. He is dead. I mean show some respect.
And, for him to be so hypocritical and sit there and say that they are cashing in on their son`s death when he is actually doing that. His
parents have traveled this country advocating, arguing before legislative bodies and groups and organizations trying to bring about awareness to an
issue --
[19:40:05] WRIGHT: I mean --
TEWOLDE: Excuse me, let me finish -- to an issue that is so important in this country. Yet George Zimmerman, what he is doing, is cashing in on his
death, selling American flag paintings on eBay for 100k.
PINSKY: Yodit, hold on.
TEWOLDE: That is hypocritical.
PINSKY: Hold on.
TEWOLDE: He should not do that.
PINSKY: Let us get Crystal`s response. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: So, one minute, you say that George Zimmerman should not cash in by selling the gun that he killed Trayvon Martin with, which I do not
condone, but in the next breath you talked about Trayvon Martin`s parents who, by the way, have cashed in on their son`s death very well, handsomely.
And, that is not going to bring their son back. And, I know, many parents who lost teens tragically. Again, I go back to Chicago. In the genocide
in Chicago, you have FBI Director Comey who has said that so-called Ferguson effect has led to a rash of homicides in more than two dozens of
cities across America including Chicago.
PINSKY: Hang on a second.
WRIGHT: Where is your outrage on that?
PINSKY: Crystal, hold on. Wait. Mark, go ahead. Help me out here, Mark. Go ahead.
GERAGOS: I was just going to say, Crystal, why is there linkage between those two, because I do not understand that.
TEWOLDE: Thank you.
GERAGOS: I can sit here and I can have absolute -- I can be appalled by what is happening in Chicago. I can be appalled by what is happening in
the community. I see it all the time in the criminal justice system. It is appalling to me.
But why is that equated with the fact that it is OK when somebody loses their loved one, and when you say "Cashed in," there is a civil justice
system. The civil justice system says, "When the criminal system does not work, you get to go to the civil justice system."
And, I know you want to call it cashing in, but what does one have to do with the other? Why is it that we have to conflate those two and say, "Oh,
it is OK for George Zimmerman to shoot somebody and then sell the gun and insult the parents because black kids are getting killed by other black
kids in Chicago." I mean it is illogical policy.
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: I will tell you why I am connecting the two --
TEWOLDE: Where is the contingency?
WRIGHT: I will tell you why I am connecting the two, Mark and I have compassion. Where is your compassion, Mark, for all these black kids that
are killed senselessly in the -- you talked about Trayvon Martin. I do not ever see you getting really upset and agitated about Hadiya Pendleton? Do
you know her name? Do you know Hadiya Pendleton, the young black woman from Chicago --
GERAGOS: I do.
WRIGHT: -- who is saying President Barack Obama --
GERAGOS: And, the idea --
WRIGHT: -- And, there are a lot of black kids and white kids who are nameless. And, they do not get the attention that Trayvon Martin got.
PINSKY: Guys --
WRIGHT: That is why I am upset.
PINSKY: Crystal.
WRIGHT: He is not special.
GERAGOS: I know. Crystal --
PINSKY: I got to go to break. Mark, hold on.
GERAGOS: Crystal.
PINSKY: When we come back, we will make some predictions about what the future holds. We will get back to the panel after break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: George Zimmerman to sell the weapon he used to kill Trayvon Martin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY MARTIN, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FATHER: I pledged I will not let my son die in vain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CONVICTED OF MURDERING TRAYVON MARTIN: I am a free American. I can do what I would like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNDERWOOD: This lawful legal activity, we are going to allow individual make a choice on what they choose to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUMP: No matter what, he seems like he keeps to reappear to open the wounds again and again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The gun used to kill Trayvon Martin apparently won by a mystery buyer who bid almost $139,000. George Zimmerman had put the weapon up for
sale on the online auction site called "UnitedGunGroup.com."
We are working to confirm who the buyer was and see if this is, in fact, a legitimate purchase. Back with Jena, Mark, Yodit and Crystal. Jena, who
would want to buy something like this? Why would people -- I guess it is just the markets have commodity, when America makes markets and everything,
I guess.
KRAVITZ: I am so at lost with this. Who is this guy? Like, he is like the -- He is the hero of his own fantasy world. But, even worse, Dr.
Drew, this is somebody who has shown poor judgment from the first encounter all the way until selling this gun.
I mean, where is the compassion? You started out asking, is this just a bad dude or is this mental illness? I am going to go with both. This is
like a man who, at a very human level, lacks some really basic feelings towards other human beings.
PINSKY: Let us look at how we think this story ends. Mark, do you think he will hurt somebody again? These are predictions.
GERAGOS: I think the pattern -- the pattern has already been established. He is obviously, if he got, in fact, $139,000, the over and under on how
long it will take before he gets in trouble is 90 days.
PINSKY: 90 days. So, Yodit, 90 days as mark says. Will he end up in jail?
TEWOLDE: You know what, he has gotten --
GERAGOS: He will do something stupid with that $139,000.
TEWOLDE: He has been in the headlines since his acquittal. Whether he was charged with domestic violence, whether he has been arrested, whether he
has been stopped by a police officer, he is going to be in the news. Now, whether he actually gets to be held accountable, I do not know, because he
has not since. So, I am not sure. I hope so.
WRIGHT: That seems like his goal to make it to the news. This is sort of fueling his fire.
PINSKY: I guess so. Think about it. Even Casey Anthony has dropped out of sight. The most hated woman in America, we have not heard from her.
But, Crystal, this is certainly not something I would wish on anybody. This is not the way to solve our feelings about this man, but will someone
hurt him?
WRIGHT: I think there is a high probability of that, and I do agree with Mark. I think George Zimmerman has become unhinged over the last, what,
two years we have seen this. A traffic incident, he had an encounter with his wife.
I mean, he really just needs to go away, in my opinion. And, actually, one of your other guests said something about the fact that he is not being
held accountable. He was less accountable. There was a trial -- he was arrested, there was a trial. The jury of his peers found him not guilty.
So, he was held accountable.
[19:50:11] TEWOLDE: You know what is funny to me --
WRIGHT: What is funny?
PINSKY: Yodit, what is funny?
TEWOLDE: What is funny to me is that, you have yet, I do not care whether you believe he was justified in the killing or not --
WRIGHT: There are laws here, right?
TEWOLDE: I am not here -- again, again, I am not here to re-litigate the issue. I am not here to do that. What I am saying is that, I am so
surprised that you, earlier on, said something about the person who the gun is disgusting. Why have you yet to say that George Zimmerman is so wrong
for attacking Trayvon Martin`s parents?
KRAVITZ: Yes.
TEWOLDE: That is mind boggling to me?
KRAVITZ: I will never say that, because if you would look back, I guess what is it, three years, Dr. Drew, that when I came on this show and talked
about the trial with you, I think I have always been very consistent in my critique of his parents.
And, they seem more concerned and I read about this at length on my blog. They seem sadly and tragically more concerned about their son in the
afterlife than they were when he was here and with us, and that is what I find to be very odd.
PINSKY: We have to leave it, guys, right there. I have got an update on another tragic story, a mother who killed her own daughter. She says it
was out of love. The judge, not having it. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMAL REPORTER: It is almost a year that Bonnie Liltz admitted to killing her 28-year-old severely disabled daughter, Courtney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She was born with a significant case of cerebral palsy. She could not walk. She could not barely communicate, was
not able to feed herself. She could not wash herself. It was Bonnie who stepped in and did all of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She feared she would lose her battle with cancer and did not want her daughter to return to an institution, where she
had once received poor care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Everyone is looking at this like, "Oh, this is mercy killing," but this is murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This woman is so narcissistically charged that it is all about her. That it is her reflection in the eyes of that child. And, when she
is not there, this child is not allowed to be there either?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: This is the type of case that we should be doing probation as oppose to putting her in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: An update to this tragic story, it sparked bitter debate about some of my guests on my show. Bonnie Liltz was sentenced today to four
years in prison, followed by two years probation. More bad behavior tonight. This so-called mercy mom, mercy killing mom, is she the one that
is behaving badly or the judge who sentenced her.
Back with Jena, Mark and Yodit. Yodit, there is a lot of controversy amongst my panelists about this. On one hand, we are setting a precedent
that if the mother feels the child is not getting adequate care or is not going to have a quality of life, she can end the child`s life versus this
woman was doing something for a child that had no quality of life.
She had more than just cerebral palsy, she had severe developmental problems and was breaking down in the care that is being provided for her
by the state. Who is right? Who is wrong?
TEWOLDE: You know, I am not going to say the judge was wrong, because there is a penalty range for a reason. So, he was within that penalty
range to sentence her to prison. However, I am surprised that the judge did give her four years in prison, considering the factors. We have to
look at cases on a case by case situation.
And, with prosecutors, they have a wide range of discretion. And, with that discretion comes power. And, the fact that the prosecutor reduced
this charge to an involuntary manslaughter, and then recommended not prison time, but probation and the defense attorney agreed, normally, when you
have two sides agree, the judge goes along with it.
So, for him to say no, I am not going to give probation and give her time was surprising to me, because I think that, that is a death sentence. She
is not going to make it. She has got cancer --
PINSKY: No, no, no. No, no, no, no. Do not believe that. That is not true. She has ovarian cancer. She was treated for it, like 20 years ago.
She is not going to die. She has had serious complications.
TEWOLDE: Fine, fine.
PINSKY: She had complications.
TEWOLDE: She has serious complications.
PINSKY: Yes, she has very serious complications.
TEWOLDE: Fine, Dr. Drew, but at the same time -- Right. But, at the same time, when there was punishment evidence that was being put on, you had
several people come forward and say, you know what? She has always loved this child. She has created a nurturing environment for her.
PINSKY: Listen. She has, for sure. And, I want to read to you the suicide note, but for some reason I do not have it. Mark, are you
surprised by this judge`s sentence?
GERAGOS: I am and precisely for the reasons that were just articulated. Look, if you get a prosecutor who decides, "I am going to reduce it to
involuntary manslaughter," which is basically of the big four, the lesser of all four opportunities to plea out a case. The prosecutor recommends no
time and the defense goes into it agreeing, I do not know why the judge thinks, at that point that it is a good idea to get four years.
And, I will criticize the judge. I think it is show boating. I think it was because there was so much media attention to it that this was going to
be -- "I am going to be hard on crime or this or that." I do not know that anybody, anybody, believed that this woman had malice --
PINSKY: No. No, no.
GERAGOS: -- or she had evil intent or that she had anything but the most compassionate reason. So, why are we warehousing her for four years?
PINSKY: Mark, I agree with you. However, Jena, back me up on this. The idea that my assessment as the parent could be my narcissistic needs --
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: -- being override in the child`s autonomy.
KRAVITZ: I was just actually going to say, and you might disagree with me here, but I actually think she is quite dangerous and remains quite
dangerous. Because is it possible that she adopted a child, because the narcissistic need is so great that she needs to have an extension of
herself in the world?
PINSKY: She needs a savior. And, to save the child --
KRAVITZ: That is right. With that she would not do something again like that?
PINSKY: Well, all right. Well, I agree with Mark, bottom line. I think that we do not need to warehouse somebody for four years. She does not
have overt malice, even though she may have not been clear in her intention. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, panel. We will see you
next time. Nancy Grace up next.
END
