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Dr. Drew
Duane Nelson Sr. Had A Daughter Named Brianna And She Could Be A Potential Heir; New Developments In The Prince Death Drama; A Huge Stash Of Pot And Vicodin Found In The Car Of A PTA Volunteer; Mom Who Planned And Drowned Her Two Small Children Gets Just Years In Prison Instead Of The 50 She Might Have Received
Aired May 19, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:14] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, TALK SHOW HOST: Your father -- you had a rough time with your father, right?
PRINCE ROGER NELSON, AMERICAN SINGER, SONGWRITER RECORD PRODUCER: I would not call it rough. I mean, he was very strict disciplinarian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: We are taking about Duane Nelson Sr. This is another son of Prince`s dad. Duane Nelson Sr. had a daughter
named Brianna and she could be a potential heir here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There is no question that Duane Nelson was a half brother who shared the same dad. So, they are very clearly blood
relatives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: And, tonight, new developments in the Prince death drama, you will not see anywhere else.
Joining me, Lisa Guerrero, correspondent with "Inside Edition". Mark Eiglarsh, Criminal Defense Attorney, SpeakToMark.com. Dax Holt from TMZ
and on the phone, Andrew Stoltmann, attorney for two of Prince`s possible blood relatives.
Now, Andrew, you filed paperwork with the court today that you say is proof positive, your clients are Prince`s heirs. I would like you to show
the birth certificate for Duane Nelson Sr. and tell us what that means?
ANDREW STOLTMANN, POSSIBLE PRINCE HEIRS` ATTORNEY: Sure, what it means is under Minnesota law to the extent you have an individual, in this
case it would be John Nelson, listed as the biological father on the birth certificate. That creates legally one of the best rebuttable presumptions
you can do that this is a blood heir.
So, this is important because, because the name listed on the birth certificate, it makes them a blood heir unless it can be shown by clearing
and convincing proof that, that is not the case. And, that will be very, very hard for anyone to do.
PINSKY: Would that be DNA evidence?
STOLTMANN: That would be one possibility, yes. That is always considered a good test for whether there is a blood relationship or not.
And, certainly, if the judge requires everybody to go under those tests, we will certainly adhere to it.
PINSKY: Here is part of the Prince`s inheritance tree. Now, even though Duane Nelson St. is no longer with us, his share could be
distributed to his kin. So, tell me, Andrew about these two.
STOLTMANN: They are great, great people. I mean Brianna is 31 years old. She works in the medical industry, taking care of old and sick
people. And, V.N., Prince`s grandniece is an absolute adorable little girl, 11 years old. Two of the nicest folks you ever want to meet.
Brianna has been to Paisley Park, probably 50 something times. Her dad was the head of security. Had a good relationship with her uncle.
And, you know, it was kind of what you would expect of a niece and uncle sort of relationship.
PINSKY: Mark, If you were across the table, would you be objecting to any of these claims?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If it was adverse to my client, I would. It sounds like he has got something solid there. The
birth certificate is presumption that he is an heir. But, this is an advertisement for one thing, Drew, and that is, get a will!
PINSKY: Yes. Have a will, everybody. I mean, people sometimes think about wills as being somehow selfish. It is selfish not to get a will.
Now, Dax, you guys posted a story about Prince`s death that caught our eye.
Here it says, quote, cops are particularly interested to see if Prince had a combination of Percocet and the synthetic opiate buprenorphine
in his system. Now, I am sure, they are talking about suboxone, which is what was alleged to have been in that young man`s that he is binging on
behalf of his physician father, who is an addictionologist. Why suddenly do they have this suspicion?
DAX HOLT, TMZ: Well, number one, you are looking at a case, where there is a case where there is a doctor in the room with Andrew Kornfeled
who had this synthetic opiate in his backpack. And, they are going, this is not a coincidence.
At least, this is you know, authorities are thinking, this is not a coincidence. These two people were there at the same time and they are
wondering, you know, they do not know at this point what killed him, but they were really interested if a combination of this synthetic opiate and
Percocet, you know, could make a fatal combination. You got to lose --
PINSKY: Let me guess. So, what they are thinking is you have the doctor showing up, who was going to be the responsible party to administer
the medicine the one kid have mulled in this from across the country.
HOLT: Correct.
PINSKY: The physician does not have the certification to get or give that medicine, that is why this kid needed to bring it. You wondering
whether they gave it. And, I will tell you what.
There is something called induction that occurs when people are first exposed to Suboxone and they can get seriously ill sometimes. And, I have
seen people end up on ventilators. So, that is a real possibility here, Dax.
HOLT: Shortness of breathing.
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLT: And, then I think, on top of it, I think I have heard people talking about if he did have flu-like symptoms that increases it even more,
to be potentially even more lethal.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: Yes. That is a serious thing. I hope that did not happen. I mean that would be really bad. Mark, I mean, think about
that. One physician is not certified to give the medicine. Somebody has mulled it across the country. I mean both people -- I understand, they are
trying to help, but way over their head in this situation.
EIGLARSH: No question. In the court of public opinion, people have already convicted these guys. But, I would like to ask you, Drew, argue
that what they have done is innocuous that they have done nothing wrong. Where does the evidence support that?
PINSKY: That they have done nothing wrong? That they were --
EIGLARSH: Yes. Make that argument. You are crucified everywhere.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, you have to say they were operating in good faith. They have a medication that people have profound enthusiasm for.
It is available across state lines. It could be life-saving to use that medication.
We have a doctor who is desperate to help his patient. We got a physician who can do it, but is not available, but is able to ferry the
medicines there. I mean, you can talk about it as a life-saving intervention. I do not see it that way at all. Sorry, I will not be on
the stand for you.
EIGLARSH: At least, thank you for keeping it fair and balance. At least, we now see the other side.
PINSKY: Yes. A little bit, but the fact is, that excessive enthusiasm for this drug, they are way over what they were doing this where
they were and know exactly what they were doing. Without nursing care and who knows what else was on board.
I am worried there was benzodiazepines as well, as there often is. So, there is a lot that could have been going on here. Now, Lisa, Michael
Jackson`s doctor Conrad Murray told Lisa Guerrero, whom he thinks is responsible for Prince`s death. Watch this interview with Lisa from
"Inside Edition."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL PHYSICIAN: There was clear instructions on that bottle. If Prince as an adult chooses to take 15
pills every six hours versus two pills every six hours in the absence of the doctor, do you hold him responsible?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LISA GUERRERO, CORRESPONDENT, INSIDE EDITION (voice-over): But, Dr. Murray said he disagrees when people who compare him to Prince`s doctor.
He is particularly upset with Dr. Drew Pinsky.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He is clearly wrong. He is drawing the wrong conclusion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Well, and Lisa, if you remember my main conclusion was do not deal with somebody with substance and mental health issue on your own,
unless it is -- and especially when you do not have the training to do it, Lisa, but go ahead.
GUERRERO: Well, my take after having sat down with Dr. Murray throughout the day, I mean, the story that aired was four or five minutes.
But, I sat down with him for a couple of hours. And, my takeaway was this is a man who refuses to take responsibility at all for anything that
happened to Michael Jackson.
As a matter of fact not only did he not take responsibility, he implied that perhaps Michael Jackson was depressed or suicidal and took the
Propofol himself or at one point he even -- I kept coming back to the fact that he is the victim, he is the victim, meaning Dr. Conrad Murray is the
victim.
After I said, "Sir, is not the victim the one who is actually in the grave?" But, he continued to call himself a victim and even at one point
in the sit-down interview with me, he compared himself to Jesus Christ.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
GUERRERO: That is how completely delusional he seemed to be to me anyway. It was shocking.
PINSKY: Dax, why are not we reading about this on TMZ. I see your wheels turning.
HOLT: Because I was sitting here and I was going to bring up Conrad Murray during our last discussion, you know, come across the state line
with these pills and desperately trying to help the person. Well, I think Conrad Murray was desperately trying to help Michael Jackson`s sleep and
trying to make him happy.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course. Yes.
HOLT: And, so, I was drawing the correlation here. I am just shocked that he still has not gotten that after all these years.
PINSKY: Yes. Thank God the rest of us have, but Lisa what?
GUERRERO: One of the things that I found most disturbing at the end of the day is that Dr. Conrad Murray is still seeing patients. He is a
consultant. He is no longer technically doctor.
PINSKY: Yes, but Lisa, I would take issue with that.
GUERRERO: Can you imagine -- No, wait, wait.
PINSKY: No, I cannot because --
GUERRERO: Who would go to Dr. Conrad Murray for anything?
PINSKY: It is your point.
GUERRERO: Seriously.
EIGLARSH: Wait, wait.
PINSKY: Mark --
EIGLARSH: What is the value?
PINSKY: Mark, what is the value?
EIGLARSH: I see the value in him as a consultant. I do. What I would do is I would hire him, if I had a clinic, I would say, "Tell me
exactly what would you do" and then I would tell everybody to do the opposite.
PINSKY: Listen, I will tell you what. Do not mistake people being good in their area of expertise and really not even understanding when they
are over their head. They get a little too grandiose. They are thinking they know how to do everything and they get over here and really end up in
trouble.
I have no doubt he was an excellent cardiologist. I do not. There is no way that he was not. Everything I heard and read about him suggested
he was. He does not know how to deal with the patient with substance or mental health issue at all.
He does not understand that and he should not have been doing that. That is all I am saying. And, listen, these guys that are trying to help
prince were over their head as well. Mark.
EIGLARSH: I am not a fan of people who do not accept responsibility for what they have done. For him to tell Lisa that he bears no
responsibility at all after a jury disagreed with him, then I cannot believe anything that have come down. He may be a wonderful doctor in some
respects.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: But until he accepts responsibility for his role in this, you are dead to me.
PINSKY: And, not only that, Mark, I do not like physicians blaming patients. I understand the patients may have a role to play, but your job
as a doctor is to figure out if the patient`s lying, to figure out if you should be giving 10 pills or two pills or 50 pills to a patient. That is
on us.
[19:10:00] EIGLARSH: Right.
PINSKY: That is on us. So, if you give him enough to take 15 twice a day, that is on you, not on the patient for having done it. Next up, a
PTA mom is framed by another mom who goes to prison for that crime. Now, the two are battling and face off.
And, still to come, years of prison for drowning her own children. Is this woman being punished enough for having killed them? Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: A huge stash of pot and Vicodin found in the car of a PTA volunteer as an accustomed. Then a dad admits he planted the drugs there,
so his wife would get revenge on her. The PTA volunteer, Kelli Peters, says the other mom was angry with her because she believed her 6-year-old
son had been mistreated in the after school program that this PTA volunteer was supervising.
[19:15:00] The mother, it is getting complicated, Jill Easter, the one whose husband was planting the drugs, started to campaign to get rid of
Kellie, the PTA volunteer for good. Here it is on Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLI PETERS, PTA VOLUNTEER: I turned my back and she yelled, "I will get you!" She just went after me full force. She called anybody that
she could call. The lies started there. She just started saying anything that she could -- that I hurt her son?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETERS: They attempted to have me removed from the school, removed from any Irvine school, vanished. Filed lawsuits against me. A
restraining order. She told the judge that I tried to kill her and that was stalking her. She starts handed out flyers in front of the school the
next day. I mean, that was like the beginning of, you know, the five years of torture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Lisa and Mark. Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Criminal Defense Attorney, Of Counsel to the Cochran Firm. I
also have Erin Foster, psychotherapist.
Now, police showed up at Kelly`s school when they got a 911 call about an erratic driver in the parking lot. This is how she got caught
with drugs in her car. In the civil trial, the husband Kent Easter admitted it was him making the 911 call. Watch this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: Irvine Police.
KENT EASTER, HUSBAND OF KELLI EASTER: I saw a car driving very erratically. It -- it continued on into the, into the parking lot of the
school. And, it looked like they had something away in their car -- Some drugs and I --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: What? Did they --
KENT EASTER: -- It is all over the place and then they went into the school. I recognize the parent volunteers for the after school program.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 DISPATCHER: So, you specifically saw her place something behind her seat?
KENT EASTER: Yes, yes, it looked like she, she had some pills or something --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST OF "DR. PHIL" SHOW: Is this your husband?
JILL EASTER, FOUND GUILTY ON PLANTIN DRUGS ON FORMER PTA PRESIDENT: I am not going to contradict anything that he has said. It is not me on the
phone. I am not the same person as my husband.
DR. PHIL: You know he has admitted that, that is him?
JILL EASTER: Listen. I am a separate person from my husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETERS: He is nuts.
DR. PHIL: What is wrong with this woman?
PETERS: I really do not know. I think she is desperate for attention?
DR. PHIL: Is she evil?
PETERS: For sure. She needs to own it, man. She got busted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, what happens if you are interviewing her up on the stand, old Jill.
EIGLARSH: Oh, my goodness. Listen, let me just make something very clear. I am not saying she is a liar. I am not, because I was not there.
But, she does a hell of an impression of a liar.
PINSKY: Well, you know what?
EIGLARSH: She is good.
PINSKY: Yes. And, you know what, defense attorneys are always advising their clients to what, Anahita? What would you have been telling
her to make her behave like that?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well. I am not sure there is anything you can do with her, Dr. Drew, because -- and I am not
even sure why she did that interview. Was she there to clear her name?
Was she there to tell her side of the story, because if that is it she miserably failed. She sat there, she was smug. She did not answer the
questions. And, yes, she lied. Her DNA was found on those bags.
PINSKY: Funny you can say it. Funny, you can say it. I want to show you how she reacts when that is presented to her, the fact that the DNA was
found inside Kelly`s car. Watch this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETERS: "Somebody saw you putting drugs in your car." You know, I thought this is a joke. And, I took them to the car and I could see in the
window, biggest day, a big giant bag of marijuana literally sitting on the back seat. He keep saying that these are yours, did someone plant them in
your car? And, I said, "They must have." I mean, I did not put them there.
DR. PHIL: You were accused of planting drugs in this women`s car.
JILL EASTER: Yes.
DR. PHIL: Did you?
JILL EASTER: No.
DR. PHIL: But, they did find your DNA on the pills.
JILL EASTER: Right, and that is transfer DNA. It does not mean that I touched those items.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. So Lisa --
SEDAGHATFAR: How did that get there? Transferred DNA, how did it get there?
PINSKY: Yes. She touched the pills, but she did not plant the pills. Right? It depends as Mr. Clinton would say, it depends what is, is.
(LAUGHING)
GUERRERO: All I have to say is, are they auditioning for "Housewives of Orange County." The Orange County parents have way too much time on
their hands and this just makes me happy that I do not have kids, frankly. Everything about this is lunacy. And, these two, believe it or not, the
married couple, they are actually lawyers after all of this.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. They were both lawyers. Erin, they are the colleagues of the two friends and colleagues I have here, Mark and Anahita.
I would love them tow defend them. But, first, Erin and I are going to at least take Jill apart a little bit. Erin, she is in massive denial. She
has flat affect. She is manipulative and evasive. Hard to know what is going on here, but something terribly wrong, right?
ERIN FOSTER, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think this is pretty classic borderline personality disorder and the husband is clearly a
narcissist. But, we have a borderline on our hands. Are they crazy? Yes. Is Anahita right? Can you defend them? No, you cannot. There is no cure
for borderline. They will do what they want to do.
[19:20:00] PINSKY: And, again, we do not know this woman. We are speculating based on what we are seeing here. I do not want Erin to become
of what we call borderline rage, which is never the fun to be fun of.
But, you know, a lot of people have borderline traits and they do not have to be evil. You know what I mean, just because you are border line,
does not mean you have to be acting out to other people, but their version of reality tends to beg no alternative.
And, Jill took a plea deal. She served four months in jail. Kent, the husband was convicted of a felony. He served six months in jail and he
needs to complete 100 hours of community service. Now, Anahita, they tortured this woman for like five years, neither spent even one year behind
bars. Is that all right?
SEDAGHATFAR: That was really perplexing to me, Dr. Drew when I heard that. I do not know that the punishment fit the crime here, but at the end
of the day, yes, they are both lawyers. I do not know how they went to law school? How they passed the bar exam? Because they were doing everything
wrong.
They made that phone call. Did the husband not know they could trace phone calls, that cell phones can be pinged? That if you touched
something, DNA can be taken from that object. This was really one of the dumbest crimes I have ever seen, Mark.
(LAUGHING)
EIGLARSH: Anahita, the answer is that they obviously do not do criminal law.
PINSKY: They do not do criminal law --
EIGLARSH: They do not know how to do this right.
PINSKY: They do not do criminal law. They are playing hooky on the days of the classes, which were covering the criminal law system, because
evidently --
SEDAGHATFAR: How to get away with a crime.
EIGLARSH: And, Drew --
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: They obviously are not watching forensic files. You put gloves on your hands. Do something.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHTFAR: Right.
PINSKY: Well, really the good news -- there is a piece of good news in here was that these two are not criminals. You know what I mean? They
do not really behave like criminals. They behave like desperate --
EIGLARSH: I am going to disagree with you.
GUERRERO: Wait a minute.
PINSKY: Well, I mean they are criminal.
EIGLARSH: Since their conviction --
GUERRERO: They pleaded guilty.
PINSKY: All right, everybody.
GUERRERO: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Here is the biggest problem.
PINSKY: Lisa.
GUERRERO: Here is the biggest problem with the whole story. All laughs aside. Those two people actually have a little boy that has them as
their parents and that is who the true victim is, I think.
PINSKY: Again, possibly, possibly, I hope to God they can do their job as parents and create a stable environment. They have at least
sustained their relationship together and they do not flown apart through all this. I do not know what is going on at home. I am hoping and praying
it is better than what we are seeing out here in public.
PINSKY: Next, more on the PTA mom that this vendetta that lead a husband and wife in real trouble.
And, still to come, a mother tried to kill her children with windshield wiper fluid. When that did not work, she drowned them. When
she had drowned them, she tried to gas them. Outrage tonight over her sentence. Back with that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Jill Easter says she had nothing to do with planting illegal drugs inside another moms, PTA mom`s car. In fact, she claims she was
framed for the crime. Watch this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL EASTER: There was information out there that would have really helped me and was purposely suppressed. And, one of those things is long
tapes of police officers in which they accidentally left the recording devices on.
A police officer telling Kent that there is no evidence on me and that he should blame me and let me take the charge so that he can keep his
job. They knew that I had not issued a threat, yet they allowed the testimony to be given about threat to make me look like a bad person.
DR. PHIL: Is any of that true?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: None of it.
DR. PHIL: Did she produce any evidence of that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, no of course not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Lisa, Mark, Anahita and Erin. Erin, you know, that is sort of the border line process, right? Everything is distorted.
Nothing is about me. Everything is out there.
FOSTER: Faulty belied system, nothing is my fault. I did not ever do anything wrong. And, it is very persecutory.
PINSKY: Yes. Now, she actually, this woman, another for you, Erin, another piece of borderline material, she changed her name. Here new name
is Ava Bjork and she published a series of crime novels. Then she changed name again to Ava Everheart. So, interesting. Erin.
FOSTER: Inconsistent. So, border lines are very inconsistent and they do a lot of push-pull. And, that is what I see happening.
PINSKY: Well, inconsistent, but also a core lack of sense of self, right? And, so, the change of name, change who I have present myself, it
is just very fluid. There is no real central. You know, we all have a center of who we are. Borderlines have real emptiness right there, right?
FOSTER: They do not really have a sense of self-worth or identity and so they take on these different identities in an attempt to push people
away.
PINSKY: I wonder, though, Anahita, if some of the defense attorney got their hands on her and was, you know, shaping the stuff that she was
saying. Did any of that makes sense to you as a defense attorney?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think so. I think she was acting on her own. I think she thought she can probably fool Dr. Phil, or get away with
everything. But, he was literally confronting her with the evidence and she was denying it. Everything was right there and she continued to lie.
And, Dr. Drew, she is disbarred and she also got a 5.7 million judgment against her in the civil lawsuit. And, I think that is the best
part of all of this. I do not think she was criminally punished enough, but she is going to owe this woman $5.7 million.
PINSKY: Mark, the obfuscation, does that sound familiar to you? I saw you nodding your head. In fact, wait a minute. Is that your fog
machine again, Mark? Is that what I am seeing?
EIGLARSH: No. No. Stop. No fog machine tonight. But, I am shaking my head because people ask me many times how can I defend those
people. And, I have many different responses. Your show is not long enough.
But, the people that I despise the most or have difficulty with are those like this woman who have the defects in character that in spite of
overwhelming evidence, in spite of her already pleading guilty, she will look at Dr. Phil in the face and say she did not do it. It is
unbelievable.
PINSKY: Lisa, I will just say that -- I know Mark has great disdain, but I actually have great sympathy for people like this, because I know --
you know, I have sat in the room with them, and I know they can be if pain. But they really suffer. They do suffer a lot. And, this usually comes
from a core of trauma. Do you feel any sympathy for her?
[19:30:00] GUERRERO: Hell no.
PINSKY: OK.
GUERRERO: No. I feel sympathy for her kids. I feel sympathy for the victim that was persecuted for five years.
PINSKY: Yes.
GUERRERO: I do not feel sorry for her.
PINSKY: I do too.
GUERRERO: Are you kidding me?
PINSKY: Well, I am not kidding. Erin, that codependent, Erin that I completely lost my way?
FOSTER: You are not, because while they are annoying and irritating and they get under skin, border lines are mentally ill and they are
suffering.
PINSKY: Anahita, you want to say something.
SEDAGHAFAR: I was going to say I kind of do feel sorry for her, because clearly there is something going on with her that is not right.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, I do not know, I mean whatever you want to label it, I am not the medical professional, but there is something wrong with
her just the way she was talking.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: And, also Dr. Drew, you mentioned about borderline. I know she does have a lot of plastic surgery done on her face.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: I mean, I do not know if that could also be --
PINSKY: Well, again, we do not know her. We do not know what she did and did not do. I do not want to cast that against her, but again, that is
all that lack of -- you know, people have a real sense of themselves.
They do not want to change how they look. They do not want to change their name and these are people that do not have a good sense of
themselves. A little more flu with that stuff. Lisa got nothing.
GUERRERO: You, guys are too nice.
PINSKY: Lisa is doing jumping jacks back there.
GUERRERO: You guys are too nice.
PINSKY: I am just saying. Listen. Here is my thing. I can be sympathetic, but once they cross over and hurt other people, that is when
everyone else takes over. And, you know, have at it, guys, because they should have gotten help before they hurt other people. That is all, I
always said.
Next up, a mother kills her own children. Speaking of getting help before you get in trouble, although this is a tough one. Postpartum
depression is the defense. A relative is here who is outraged. What do you think?
Still to come. This woman knows what happened to her little boy. As a 25-year-old secret finally been revealed. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She was described as the model mother and teacher. So, what made Lisette Bamenga poison and then drown her
infant daughter and 4-year-old son? Prosecutor say, she was bent on revenge after learning her then husband and new York City Police Officer
had got another woman pregnant. But, her attorney says she suffered from crippling undiagnosed postpartum psychosis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: The former third grade teacher was convicted of manslaughter in the deaths of her two small children. Now, a judge says she will spend
just eight years in prison. She could have been locked away for 50 years. The children`s aunt is outraged. She will be here in just a minute. Back
with Anahita, Mark, Lisa and Erin. Lisa, this is a highly controversial sentence. Help me understand why?
GUERRERO: Well, first of all, it is heart breaking.
PINSKY: Yes.
GUERRERO: And, anybody that has been following this can understand why this is so tragic on so many levels, but let me take you back first.
And, we can go through the details of this case and, you know, your viewers can make a decision for themselves.
First, let us go back to July of 2012, and that is when Lissette Bamenga killed her 4-month-old daughter, Violet and her 4-year-old son,
Trevor. Now, she was just 29 years old at the time and according to all accounts, she was a model mother and a beloved third grade teacher in
Brooklyn, New York.
So, we have learned from courtroom testimony that she tried to poison her children first by lacing their grapefruit juice with windshield wiper
fluid and when that did not work, she drowned them in a bathtub.
Once the children were dead, she attempted suicide by slitting her wrists. Her attorney has maintained that she suffered from crippling
postpartum psychosis. But, prosecutors argue that she killed the kids to get back at her husband after learning that he got another woman pregnant.
So, here is the debate. You know, was she sick or was she just evil, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Or both. And, police say, Lisette Bamenga admitted that she went online to actually research how to poison her children then drove to
pep boy where she bought the windshield wiper fluid.
Now, Anahita, now, I am very sympathetic to the idea of a postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, but this systematic multistep process,
that bugs me, right? Murder.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think she was planning it, right? It gives you indication that she planned this. She plotted this.
PINSKY: I am used to there being some cognitive problems. I am sorry. I am going to cut over you, Erin. Are not you used to there being
some cognitive thought problems where people are so ill, they are going to murder their kids. I am not used to sustain arch of planning that results
in a murder with postpartum depression or psychosis.
FOSTER: Well, my concern is where is the history of the thought process? And, I am not seeing that anywhere. And, the concern here is
there was no sort of back and forth. Even if that was psychosis, it does not seem that there was like a step back moment, which makes me think this
is not right.
PINSKY: This is not right. Anahita, finish what you were saying, go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I was going to say, the judge clearly believed she was suffering from this mental illness. And, he also took into
consideration, Dr. Drew, 18 letters from psychiatrists. He took into account she was a loving mother up until this point. She was a teacher.
Some of the parents of her students were supporting her throughout this. So, you know, I am not quite sure if this was, you know, a long
enough sentence, but I hope that part of her punishment, though, would include her getting some treatment, getting therapy to make sure.
PINSKY: I am sure. Mark, what do you think? Again, there is no way that she is not suffering from what she has done.
EIGLARSH: Drew, I had a case that mirrored this. The jurors in my case in a first-degree murder case where we argued that he was not
responsible took great note of the fact that he planned it and he researched online, just like this. And, they did not cut him slack.
Guilty and he was going to get life before he killed himself.
But, the point is in a case like this, the judge made the right decision in finding her responsible. Then the next phase is a penalty
phase and he took that into account and gave her what really is a phenomenal result for that attorney who did wonders. I understand why the
court of public opinion thinks it is too little.
[19:40:03] PINSKY: So, again, it is mitigating circumstance is what you are saying, right?
EIGLARSH: That is it. She was found guilty.
PINSKY: But, Mark --
EIGLARSH: She was found clearly responsible.
PINSKY: He does not get a psychiatric illness after delivering a baby. So, please do not -- I would have been on the other side of this --
EIGLARSH: True, but we had doctors who said that he was not well.
PINSKY: All right.
EIGLARSH: But, again, that is in the past. I am just saying that the planning is the same. Jurors do not like that fact.
PINSKY: All right.
EIGLARSH: In this case, the judge did not like it.
PINSKY: I do not like it, either. I do not like it, either.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: But before I have Lisa destroy all of us, Anahita what do you want to say?
SEDAGHATFAR: I was going to say, Dr. Drew, we talk a lot about the double standard when it comes to men and women with certain types of crime.
And, I know Mark had a case he was representing a man and I saw a lot of comments online about this case where people were saying that she got off
because she was a woman. If this was a man, if this was a father who killed two of these kids, no one would ask if he was mentally ill. They
would not care. They want him executed.
PINSKY: On the phone, I have Laura Powell. She is a relative of the children Lisette drowned. Laura, you say the sentence was not harsh
enough.
LAURA POWELL, RELATIVE OF DROWNED CHILDREN: I agree, yes, it was not harsh enough. I felt as though she should have at least gotten maybe 15
years for each child. And, like you guys are saying, the planning is what really disturbs me.
She spent a considerable amount of time on the internet researching ways to kill, poison fluid or something like that. And, even when she
testified, she said with no remorse, no expression on her face, "I poured the liquid into Kenny`s cup and he sipped it and he did not like it and he
put it down."
PINSKY: It is chilling.
POWELL: She said that on the stand. And, so, she was aware that he sipped the juice and there was something wrong with it. And, you know, he
put it down and I guess went somewhere else, so she was aware of this. And, so, that is kind of what really bothered me and bothered us.
PINSKY: And, did you know her before this all happened? Is there something about her that led you to think that she is capable of this kind
of cold-blooded premeditated action on children?
POWELL: I mean, looking at the facts, she was very meticulous. I remember an incident in which there was a book, a Steve Harvey book that
came out about dating. And, so, me and my boyfriend at the time and Trevor, we were laughing at her because she had all these tabs and post-its
in the book and underlining.
And, I look at the book, and I said, "Why are you reading this?" And, she said I am getting tips from it, because she was meticulous and she
studied things a lot in great detail. Even when she was on the stand she mentioned how meticulously she organized the bookshelves. You know, French
on one side and alphabetical order for Kenny. And, so, she was meticulous even with her work schedule, you know, making sure she got the children to
daycare.
PINSKY: I will tell you what. I am going to interrupt you. Mark, I will let you ask questions as soon as we get back. We will take a quick
break. Be right back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: A mom who planned and drowned her two small children gets just years in prison instead of the 50 she might have received. Back with
Mark, Anahita, Erin, and still on the phone, Laura Powell, relative of the young children who were drowned. And, Mark, You had a question for Laura.
EIGLARSH: Laura, you filed this case closely. I want to know what happened here. Do you believe that the judge was duped meaning completely
misled by this woman and that mental illness did not play a role and she is just evil or do you believe mental illness played a role, but the judge
just should have given her more?
POWELL: Well, whether or not she had a mental illness, it is not really up to me to decide. I do think he was duped and I also do think he
could have given her a stiffer sentence.
I mean it is debatable whether she had a mental illness because the forensic psychologist had a different diagnosis than the clinician. And,
so, the forensic psychologist said she had an unspecified mental disorder and something was seasonal disorder, mood disorder.
PINSKY: Yes.
POWELL: And, the clinician said she was suffering from I guess a bipolar with a postpartum psychosis onset.
PINSKY: OK, Laura, I am going to leave it there. I am going to leave it there. That makes sense to me, that postpartum psychosis. But what
does notmake sense to me, again, is the systematic planning.
Usually when people are psychotic, their thought is disorganize. They do something impulsive. They do not plan like that. So, I want to
give you all sense of what postpartum depression is like. Joining us is Aarti Sequeira, food network host, who had battled postpartum depression,
herself, Aarti, thanks for joining us.
AARTI SEQUEIRA, FOOD NETWORK HOST, BATTLED POSTPARTUM DEPRESSION: Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: So, give people a sense of what it is like to have a postpartum depression.
SEQUEIRA: Well, the first thing I want to say is postpartum depression and postpartum psychoses are two different things. It can, you
know -- for me, my depression, it really sort of infected my brain.
I was just haunted by thoughts of not being a good mother, to the point where I would think -- I would cry and mourn over my baby, because I
said, "Lord, you should have given this baby a different woman as her mother, because I am failing her at every turn."
And, so I just could not function. What I will say is internally I was being eaten away by all of these thoughts. But, you still function
because you have to because you are a mother. So, on the outside, I was still working, I was still breast feeding, I was still cooking.
I was still being all these thing is had to be. So, that is the thing that I think is so hard about postpartum depression in all its
different forms is what you see on the outside is not always a good indicator of what is going on in the inside.
[19:50:07] PINSKY: Yes. But, there is that deep feeling of guilt and shame and inadequacy. And, then the psychosis with depression can be
very wild and disorganized. Do you buy this woman`s defense that she systematically went out and bought wiper fluid, and poisoned her children
and then drowned her children. That does not sound like a postpartum process to me.
SEQUEIRA: When I went and got help -- I just want to get this out of the way. The way I got help was I went to postpartum.net and reached out.
So, you have to reach out, because you cannot fight it on your own.
The women that I met in my support group, I still remember that one of them said that she would think about ways to kill herself. And, she
would fantasize about it. So, when this woman, if she did have postpartum psychosis, I would wager this was not the first time that she thought about
it.
PINSKY: And, again, the suicide ideology of postpartum depression often takes the form of really obsessions.
SEQUEIRA: Yes.
PINSKY: You are obsessing. You are preoccupied about it.
SEQUEIRA: Yes.
PINSKY: It is really a terribly painful process. So, anyway in that first year after her pregnancy, if they have any significant mood
disturbance, if prior to pregnancy they have a bipolar disorder or even unipolar depressions, you are at risk for this sort of thing and you should
discussing it with your obstetrician.
SEQUEIRA: Yes.
PINSKY: We will take a break, continue this conversation. We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Scary. Sorry for the family. They have my condolences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Condolences for a family seen sobbing uncontrollably. Unidentified relatives came to speak with investigators in
Parkchester, Friday afternoon, after two of their little loved ones, Trevor Noel Jr. and Lillian Noel died inside.
The 5-year-old boy and his 4-month-old baby sister were pulled from a ninth floor apartment on 1500 Noble Avenue after residents complained of a
gas leak just before midnight Thursday.
Police say their mother, 29-year-old Lisette Bamenga was also in the apartment with her wrists slit. Sources say the children were given a
chemical de-icer fluid to drink and Bamenga had also turned on the gas stove.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are talking about the woman who drowned her two children, then got eight years in prison. Back with Anahita, Mark, Erin and Aarti.
Still on the phone, Laura Powell, relative of the drowned children.
Now, Laura, one of the concerns you have, in addition to believing she should have gotten a harsher penalty, you were concerned that she seems
to have a plan to have more children.
POWELL: That has not been confirmed to me, but the fact that she will be getting out at such a young age where she may still be able to have
children is a concern to me, because this was a very serious crime that she committed and her mental state is still debatable. And, you know, it is
just -- it is a tragedy. And, it would be even more tragic if this was repeated.
PINSKY: And, Mark, there is really nothing anyone legally can do, is there?
EIGLARSH: Well, I was thinking about a case that I had many years ago early on in my career where, in lieu of my client getting decades in prison
for harming or killing her child, she agreed to undergo a tubal ligation, which could be reversed but it would take a lot and it would cost money
that she does not have. So, she voluntarily agreed to undergo that procedure so she could not have any more children.
PINSKY: Anahita, seems like a viable option or no? It seems weird to me.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is seems weird, but apparently it is voluntary thing --
EIGLARSH: Controversial.
SEDAFGHATFAR: Yes, it is voluntary I can get it, but no way a court or anyone else can impose that upon somebody.
PINSKY: During a commercial break, Anahita was asking me whether or not anyone could have seen symptoms or warning signs. You tend to hide
them, do you not?
SEQUEIRA: You do tend to hide them. And, it is exactly for these sorts of reasons why people are judging this woman, is that you feel so
much shame about the feelings that you have about yourself and over your children.
There is a huge stigma behind suffering from postpartum depression even though it is the most common complication from pregnancy. I did not
say anything for a long time, because I thought that I should just be able to get over it. It took me eight months before I went and got help.
PINSKY: Erin, you are the other mental health professional here, what should we do with this woman? Is she someone that should not be
responsible for children? Is she someone that just had a postpartum event? What do you think?
FOSTER: Well, I am going to go with my mom instinct on this one versus my clinician. And, there is something not right about a mother who
would harm her children --
PINSKY: Well, hold on, hold on.
FOSTER: -- who would kill her children.
PINSKY: Hold on. But that happens in postpartum psychosis, that happens.
FOSTER: OK. Maybe she had auditory hallucinations telling her that she should kill her children. But, I am just going off of my maternal
instinct and every maternal instinct that is normal. Is she mentally ill? Yes. Is it postpartum psychosis? I do not know, because I think there is
this biological connection that you will protect your child at all costs.
PINSKY: Hold on, Aarti, go ahead. Aarti.
SEQUEIRA: No, but the thing is that when you have postpartum depression the way that I had it, I had no connection to my child.
PINSKY: Yes. That is what people complain about. And, they obsess about is that sometimes you think about killing your kids even though you
do not intend to, you think the child would be better off without you, right?
SEQUEIRA: Exactly right.
PINSKY: Or you think about killing yourself or both of you gets part of the syndrome. You actually think you are doing something compassionate
for the child. Laura, did Lisette said that she -- this woman said that she gassed herself after she drowned her kids. Did she leave a suicide
note?
POWELL: Yes. She did. And, this was the problem with the case that went to her intention, that she understood and appreciated what she was
doing because she wrote sorry in the note.
PINSKY: All right, we have to leave it there. We have to leave it there. I am so sorry. We are out of time. Thank you, panel. Thank you,
Laura. Please, thank you for watching. Stay with us. We are here. We will see you next time. Nancy Grace starts next.
END
