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Dr. Drew
Why Madonna`s Tribute To Prince Was Trashed By Some Fans; Two Women Who Stand To Inherit Millions From The Prince Estate Objecting To Blood Testing; Did Casey Anthony Murder Little Caylee?; Arizona Police Officer Shoots And Kills An Unarmed Hotel Guest; Concerns About Johnny Manziel Are Escalating Over Alarming And Public Behavior. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 25, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): The Prince-Madonna drama part 2.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADONNA, RECORDING ARTIST (singing): Say what you mean, mean what you say. Don`t go and throw our love away. God strike me dead if I did you wrong.
This is not a love song.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Did Prince`s snub Madonna over the making of "Love Song"?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: There is new and more precise information about Prince`s death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We now know who was here, the son of a doctor in California, Andrew Kornfeld, he was here. Kirk Johnson, a
longtime friend and drummer and the estate manager, he was here. Meron Bekure, who is Prince`s assistant. She is a younger woman, near 20s, a
former model. She was also here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tonight, revealing information about why Madonna`s tribute to Prince was trashed by some fans, but first, the two women who stand to
inherit millions from the Prince estate are objecting to the request for blood testing. They say they have documents to prove their relationship to
the singer and should not have to submit to DNA testing and certainly not pay for them.
Joining me, Joey Jackson, Criminal Defense Attorney and HLN Legal Analyst; Sara Sidner, CNN Correspondent, and on the phone I have Andrew Stoltmann,
attorney for the two potential Prince heirs we have been speaking about. Andrew, what is the issue with the DNA testing?
ANDREW STOLTMANN, POSSIBLE PRINCE HEIRS` ATTORNEY: Well, the issue is pretty simple. Look, we do not have a problem with 742 other people who
have come forward claiming to be heirs being genetically tested.
But under the Minnesota Parentage Act, in a situation like our situation where you have an individual, Dwayne Nelson, that has listed John L.
Nelson, Prince`s biological father as Dwayne`s biological father, the Minnesota Parentage Act does not require DNA testing from those folks.
So, to the extent you have the right dad listed as the biological father. In this case we do, we submitted it in that birth and death certificate of
Dwayne Nelson. We do not have to submit to it. And, that is not Andrew Stoltmann saying that, that is the Minnesota Supreme Court. So, we are
going to ask the judge in this case to abide by the decision by the Minnesota Supreme Court.
PINSKY: Why does that have to be filed as such? Why does not the judge already abide by the Supreme Court decision?
STOLTMANN: Well, we are simply telling him, basically reminding him that this is his requirement. And, look, judges can decide what they want to
decide, but given we have controlling law. You know, we think we are standing on pretty solid ground on this issue.
PINSKY: Given those two, you feel do not necessarily need to go under testing, are there others who should?
STOLTMANN: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, for example, the gentleman who has claimed to be his biological son, I think he has to. I think he has to
undergo the testing. Some of the crazies and kooks who have come out of the woodwork claiming to be Prince`s long-lost brother, son, whatever it
may be. I think those people have to be tested. We have a vested interest in keeping people, who are not genetically or biologically related out of
the inheritance.
PINSKY: And, Andrew, the media is pressuring to cover future hearings regarding the estate. Can you tell me what is going on there?
STOLTMANN: Yes. You know, the press really wants to get into this courtroom. They want to videotape it, they want to provide live feeds, and
I understand the public`s curiosity in this case, because it is a fascinating case.
But, you know, we are dealing with, in this case, one of my two clients is a minor. And, what we have noticed over the last 25 years is that when
cameras go in the courtroom, it tends to turn into a circus. And, look no further than the O.J. Simpson trial.
PINSKY: Andrew --
STOLTMANN: I understand --
PINSKY: Yes.
STOLTMANN: Yes.
PINSKY: And, we get it. I mean, we have been through some of these, and yet some people feel that the sunshine acts are valuable and that the
people do learn a little something by being a witness.
STOLTMANN: I do not think there is any question that in one sense, I mean in some light, the best -- but that being said, you know, when you are
dealing with minors, when you are dealing with people like V.N., my client, you just do not want the cameras in their face.
PINSKY: Andrew, I appreciate your report. I got Sara Sidsner out there. You have new information Sara about who was there at the scene when prince
was found dead.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, some of these names we know and we have reported on because they are in either court documents or their
attorneys have come out to speak or they are source based. And, here is what we know so far.
We know about Andrew Kornfeld, the son of the doctor in California who is a person who is a specialist in treating pain, but who also deals with
dependency and pain addiction. We also know that Kirk Johnson, who is the estate manager, also a long-time friend of Prince.
He was also one of his drummers at one point. He is in "Purple Rain" for a very short role. He has been by Prince`s side for a very longtime. He was
here to discover Prince is dead. We are learning a new name, though, Meron Becure.
[19:05:05] She was Prince`s assistant. A beautiful Ethiopian born, former models who had been working with prince. And, leading up to the days, she
was on social media talking about some of the events that they had gone to.
But, then, she wrote this post about five days after he died, saying she had no idea that she would ever be writing something like this and talk
about what an amazing boss that she had and how much she had learn in the short time that she had been with him.
And, then of course, who have Dr. Michael Todd Schulenberg. Now, he got here -- according to court documents that were unfilled accidentally by a
judge, a search warrant, he got here after the paramedics were already here.
And, we do need to also mention that Andrew Kornfeld, according to his attorney, was here A. On a life-saving mission and B. Had buprenorphine in
his backpack, which he said he had never gave to Prince and was planning on giving it to another doctor. And, those details have a lot of people`s
eyes raising.
PINSKY: Joey, may I ask you this.
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure.
PINSKY: Should everyone be lawyering up even if they feel strongly they did nothing wrong. There was a bunch of player Sara listed here. Should
they all have a team of lawyers?
JACKSON: There is no question about it. I mean, obviously, whenever, Dr. Drew, you have stakes as huge as these, you are going to have people who
are going to need to watch their backs.
And, you know, there is a number of things to pull apart whenever you are talking about, you know, -- let us just backing up one second, and if I
can, just make a comment as to the whole Prince issue and as to the whole whether or not there is going to be a paternity test.
There absolutely is going to be, and I certainly do not think that your other guest, the attorney there, Andrew, that his case that he cites is
going to carry the day. You are dealing with huge public policy. You are dealing with issues affecting millions of dollars and you are going to
stand on the fact that, "Well, you know what, there is a case, which suggest that we do not need to be tested."
PINSKY: Well, let me see --
JACKSON: -- to the issue.
PINSKY: Joey, let me see if Andrew is still there. Is Andrew Stoltmann is still with me? No, he is gone. OK, finish up, Joey. I am sorry.
JACKSON: All right. So, I mean, literally, what is the harm in having clarity brought to the issue? The fact is, is that when we are dealing
with a case of this magnitude, when we are dealing with a state of this magnitude, you want to make the claim then get the test and satisfy
everyone`s curiosity and everyone`s need to know on a factual basis to award what proceeds there are.
That is number one. That is as to that issue. And, as to any other issues concerning legalities of Prince`s estate and anybody that might have been
involved in his demise, certainly there are going to be lawyers that are going to need to come forward and protect their interests, because the
police believe no stone unturned. The public interest is too high here.
PINSKY: Yes. Joining me on by phone, Nischelle Turner, correspondent for "Entertainment Tonight." Nischelle, Prince and Madonna reportedly had a
fight over duet they recorded. Is that sort of that context were led to some of the outrage in social media with Madonna`s performance?
NISCHELLE TURNER, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT CORRESPONDENT: I am not sure if that what has led to the outrage on social media duet. I think that people
just did not like the performance, and I think that is where some of the outrage came from.
I think they also felt like there were many more appropriate people to do a Prince tribute that are in the music industry that had, had long-positive
relationships with Prince, people like members of "Morris Day and the Time" or "The New Power Generation" or the family or Sheila E.
Those people had strong long-running collaborations with him. I think they felt like those would have been the more appropriate tribute. You know,
Prince and Madonna do have a history, though, dating back several decades. They have reportedly dated briefly in the 1980s.
Now, no one has actually verified that. It is definitely not out of the realm of possibility, but they reportedly dated back in the `80s for a
couple months. The report goes that Prince wanted to make it more permanent than Madonna did. They had a falling out. And, since then there
has been a little bit of back and forth and bad blood.
I mean, we have seen Madonna a couple of times take a couple of shots at Prince saying, calling him little troll or referring to him, you know,
different little things. And, that maybe Madonna and just her, you know, how she is. I do not know if there was honest bad blood, but I think that
there was a little of back and forth contentions.
PINSKY: And, I hear also there has some consternation over Beyonce. What was that all about?
TURNER: Listen, do not tell anybody in the beehive that I said anything bad about Beyonce, because I do not want anybody coming after me.
(LAUGHING)
I would like to make that clear. Now, there is a little bit of outrage going on in Minneapolis. And, that because when Beyonce is now on her
"Formation World Tour," like we have all see her. She is traveling the world during concerts. Monday, on 23rd, she was in Minnesota doing a
concert, and so the governor decided to make Monday, "Beyonce Day" in the city of Minneapolis.
[19:10:00] Prince fans were not happy about that, because they felt like that the governor did not make April 21st when prince died "Prince Day," so
why would they in turn make it "Beyonce Day" when Beyonce comes to town.
They said, you know, there is no musician that has done anything more for this area than Prince. And, they felt like it was a disrespect. So, not
really a slam. To Beyonce, more so, they felt the powers that be should have shown him that same respect.
PINSKY: Thanks, Nischelle. I appreciate it. Next up, did Casey Anthony murder little Caylee? A jury said no but a case insider has a different
answer.
And, still to come, this father of two was a hotel guest on a business trip. So, why was he shut and killed by police. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If you hate her, if you think she is a lying, no-good slut, then you will start to look at this evidence in a different
light.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER 2-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER: I need to be looked at as a victim because I am just as much of a victim -- OK. I am
just as much a victim as the rest of you. And, it has not been portrayed that way and it probably will not be, but I know that and at least there
are other people that know that and understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:15:05] BAEZ: George began to yell at her. Look what you have done! Your mother will never forgive you and you will go to jail for child
neglect for the rest of your freaking life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The State of Florida versus Casey Marie Anthony. As to the charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count 1,
we the jury find the defendant not guilty, so say we all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Did Casey Anthony`s attorney believe she had murdered her daughter Caylee and did Jose Baez have an inappropriate relationship with his
client? Shocking accusations are revealed in an affidavit from Casey Anthony`s case.
Private investigator, Dominic Casey briefly worked for casey Anthony`s defense team and he says the following, quote, "Baez had told me that Casey
had murdered Caylee and dumped the body somewhere and he needed all the help he could get to find the body before anyone else did.
Back with Joey, joining me Pat Lalama, managing editor of "Crime Watch Daily" from their newsroom. Beth Karas, Investigative Journalist,
KarasOnCrime.com and former prosecutor. Beth, you were in that courtroom every day. Do you think Jose Baez Believed Casey Anthony was guilty?
BETH KARAS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST AND FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, I do not know the answer to that. I just know that he had a strategy that was
really masterful. He kept his mouth shut about what the defense was going to be. And, it really was a bombshell at opening statements. Of course,
he could not prove what he said in the openings.
He could not prove a lot of what he said, but it stuck in jurors` minds and I suspect they could never get it out and that is one of the reasons why
she is free today. However, the argument that you could never tell when and how she died exactly was a big one, and his co-counsel, Cheney Mason,
made that one information.
PINSKY: Former investigator Dominic Casey claims Casey Anthony had a strange reaction when she heard that Caylee`s remains may have been found
by a meter reader. He says, quote, she told me at the time, Caylee is not coming home. They need to get used to that."
Dominic Casey also claims Jose Baez had an inappropriate relationship with his client, Casey Anthony. Here is what he told the court, quote, "Baez
had scheduled a television interview for her that night. She did not want to interview and asked Baez to call and cancel."
He called the network saying they would have to take a raincheck. Hung up the phone and said to Casey, quote, "You now owe me three sexual favors."
Joey, now is that how attorneys when they get comfortable with their client, joke around, or did he mean something else?
JACKSON: No, I think -- you know, listen. The fact is that, first of all, you cannot have an inappropriate relationship with a client inasmuch as any
model code that addresses the behavior of attorneys says that you cannot get close to your client like that, that is number one.
Number two, he could have, in the event he said something like this, and we have to consider the source and we to consider whether it is true or not
true or any hidden axes or grinds that need to be, you know, stated here.
But the fact is, is even if he did say that, that would not necessarily be suggestive as if it is true. He could have been blowing off steam. He
could have been saying, "You know what, this is ridiculous." I do not think you can take it literally.
PINSKY: Gallows humor, is that how attorneys do in the heat of battle? I mean, there is a language that people use sometimes that is inappropriate.
We call it gallows humor.
JACKSON: And, it very well could have been that and it is not -- clearly, it is not a proper choice of words, even if it was humorous. I do not
think many people would find it humorous, but I just do not know that these even claims have any truth or basis in fact whatsoever.
PINSKY: All right.
JACKSON: And, so, therefore, I will leave it at that.
PINSKY: Same guy, Dominic Casey, also recalls finding Casey Anthony naked in her lawyer`s office. He says, quote, "I arrived at Baez`s office
unexpectedly one day and once again witnessed a naked Casey. This time, she ran from his private office through the conference room to the hallway.
Casey told me she had to do what Jose said because she had no money for her defense."
Now, we reach out to Jose Baez and he is firing back as an accuser. Baez tells us, quote, "I unequivocally and categorically deny exchanging sex for
my legal services with Ms. Anthony. I further unequivocally and categorically deny having any sexual relationship with Ms. Anthony,
whatsoever.
The source of these reports is an uncorroborated affidavit of a former investigator, who has a history of making outrageous claims to both the
media and in court proceedings. This libelous claim is in line with many other outrageous claims and theory that this individual has advanced
regarding the Casey Anthony case."
Pat Lalama, help me sort this out. I met Jose Baez, I do not believe he would do stuff like this. He has categorically denying it. Should we take
him at his word?
[19:20:04] PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, "CRIME WATCH DAILY": Well, you know, you just never know which humanity, you never know. I question, what
is Dominic Casey`s motivation, as your other guys refer to? Why would he say such outrageous things?
Consider the source, though, because the guy who also floated a theory that perhaps she was kidnapped by drug traffickers or drug traffickers were
financing her legal case. And, if all comes down as part of this bankruptcy case, which is really the important thing, because what I care
about is how it relates to Roy Kronk.
And, that is really what is at the matter. This is the guy who found Caylee`s body. And, she said or she allegedly said, "He is the murder."
And, they floated all these theories in media. And, that is what is at the heart of this, because Roy Kronk is saying, "I cannot be exempt from your
bankruptcy.
That is really what is at the heart of this. I want to get to the truth of that child and the truth of Roy Kronk`s defamation suit. This other stuff
is pretty sleazy and interesting to talk about, but how does it help us get to the truth of the case?
PINSKY: So, let us take a look at who the guy is making these accusations and should he be even believed or listened to at all, as Pat is suggesting.
More on the man, Jose Baez calls delusional, next.
And, still to come, will Johnny Manziel live to see his next birthday. Some fear not. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning, that she drowned in the pool. That is the newest story
out there.
CASEY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
CINDY ANTHONY: What is your gut telling you right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: That she is OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: That is OK. OK. And, your gut tells you that she is close or she is hiding?
CASEY ANTHONY: She is not far. I know in my heart she is not far. I can feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Casey has issues. And, these issues were there long before Caylee was ever born and long before June 16, 2008.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wild accusations about Casey Anthony and her attorney Jose Baez revealed in court documents. The former investigator claims Baez knew
Casey was guilty of murdering her daughter, and he had an inappropriate or improper sexual relationship with Casey.
But Jose Baez tells us, quote, "This information comes from an attention seeking, delusional individual, with a history of making false claims and
outrageous claims, not only to court officials, but to the media."
Back with Joey, Pat and Beth. We are going to look at who this guy is. Beth, there were a lot of interesting, in quotes, private investigators
swirling around this case. Is he just another one of those? Jose Baez seemed like a straight shooter. He does not look like a criminal to me.
You know, Dominic is alleging he is a criminal, right?
KARAS: Yes. You know, and they are also saying that Dominic Casey is still bound by privilege, and he is not supposed to be disclosing
communications and things that occurred on the defense team. However, that is not to say what is in this affidavit is truthful.
Jose Baez was not really experienced at the time of this trial, and I have spoken with very experienced attorneys, who were so impressed with the way
he handled his opening and his closing arguments.
I am telling you, when he opened on it being an accidental drowning and Casey was being sexually abused by her father, I was floored and I thought,
"Oh, my God, either George Anthony is going to admit to this or Casey is going to get on the stand," and neither happened.
And, that is why he could not close on that. That to me was huge. And, for somebody who had never had a case of this magnitude, for him to keep
his mouth shut and use the strategy he had was pretty good.
I mean, I am sort of a prosecution-oriented person, and it was kind of hard for me to admit, but Jose Baez, like some very distinguished defense
attorneys around the country, told me did a good job.
PINSKY: Well, Pat, you seem a little surprised by that.
LALAMA: Well, and boy, do I admire Beth. There is no doubt about that. But to play devil`s advocate, if we are talking about did he have sex with
Casey Anthony, and did he say to this dominant Casey, "You know, she told me she killed the child and dumped the body."
I think there are two separate things that he could be formidable attorney, one of the best in the country so a great job for his client. I do not
know if any of this stuff Dominic saying is true, but I do not think we can rule it out. We got to find out what is to it.
PINSKY: I do not know, Joey, you just look stunned. What do you think, Joey? Come on now.
JACKSON: I mean, look, the bottom line is that any attorney, you have privileged information. You share that with your client. Even
investigators I use, I am not telling the investigator the ins and outs of what my discussions with my client are. That is privileged, too, unless it
is waived by the client.
So, he is going to say, "You know what? She really did it. I want you to go out and I want you to find the body." I mean, the claims, themselves,
do not seem to me from a legal perspective whether Jose Baez was experienced at the time or not to make any sense.
And, then you are going to compound that because now he broke the privilege by sharing information with an investigator, clearly on the team but not an
attorney and not someone who should be getting information like that. And, now you are going to suggest that there was some relationship there? --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Pat.
JACKSON: I mean, it just seems a little suspicious and certainly it seems to me that there is some other motivation here.
LALAMA: OK. Well, this is a legal document, a legal interview, a legal statement, a legal affidavit. What is his motivation of saying such
outrageous things unless he is off his rocker and is not considering the consequences? Now, that is always a possibility, too.
(LAUGHING)
But one thing I just want to say, Dr. Drew, is that there is some question about how in depth, how deeply he was involved in this so-called P.I.
situation.
PINSKY: Right.
LALAMA: Now, on the one hand he says he was a P.I. On the other hand, Jose Baez kind of discounts it and says, "Look, he volunteers his services
to me. I let him talk to Casey twice and I said sayonara." So, we do not know.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: He comments on Casey Anthony`s mental health. He says, quote, "I met Casey Anthony at the jail?" Is that true, Pat, she met
him in jail?
LALAMA: Look. That is what he claims.
PINSKY: OK.
LALAMA: I am sorry.
PINSKY: And, Beth says yes, that factually is true. There was no doubt that she had psychological issues. Again, both Jose and this guy seeing
psychological issues. I do not know what that means. That means nothing. OK?
What they were and yet to be professionally diagnosed. OK. Fair enough. Jose Baez refused to have her evaluated by a psychological professional. I
do not think that is true, either, Joey. I think he was not wanting to cloud his case once your client is out of harm`s way from the standpoint of
the criminal justice system, then you get her evaluated, no?
JACKSON: Absolutely. And, so, therefore, what would be the basis of doing it then? I just think -- I get the fact, Pat Lalama, it is a legal
document. But, you know what? I can tell you that every day of the week and twice on Sunday, though courts are not open on Sunday, witnesses have
things to say that are not exactly accurate.
LALAMA: That is true.
JACKSON: And, I cannot begin to tell you the times where I have a statement that I am confronting a witness about, they say one thing in the
grand jury when they testify. They say another thing to the police when they testify, and lo and behold, they come into a courtroom and have yet
another story. So, yes, we do have to examine the motivations, but none of this seems to make sense.
LALAMA: But, that is what we all agree to, I think. What is the motivation? If this guy is not off his rocker, he is sitting there saying
all these things. What is the method to the madness or you know, what that is --
PINSKY: Beth, any insight into this.
JACKSON: He could be on "Dr. Drew," and we could be discussing and debating it. He could get popular and he could get a book deal and he
could make money.
PINSKY: Well, maybe that is his motivation. But, Beth, what do you think?
KARAS: I just want to say the question you are putting up there on the screen, did Casey Anthony -- Oh, not that question, the one before. "Did
she urge her attorneys to lie?" It is not beyond reasonable to think that she may have.
After all, the only conviction that came out of this trial were misdemeanors for lying to the police. We know she was a pathological liar.
So, it is possible she urged her lawyers to lie. But, did they do what she wanted, who knows. And, that is privilege information and I do not know
that I necessarily believe Dominic Casey.
PINSKY: Well, I did not expect to hear from Casey Anthony at this late date, but she is back in our lives again in a really interesting way once
again. It would be interesting to hear and see if she steps up to defend Jose Baez. That would be very interesting. But again, all of them are
welcome here.
From my standpoint, Jose Baez seemed like a straight shooter. He is not that guy that is being portrayed by these allegations, and he categorically
denies what this guy said. I am going to take him at his word.
Next, how did a hotel hallway become a death trap? We will show you what happened seconds before a father of two, who begged not to be shot was
killed by police.
And later, Johnny Manziel just 23 years of age, his NFL career in shambles. Will he make it to age 24? Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: An Arizona police officer shoots and kills an unarmed hotel guest. An officer charged with second-degree murder. Just-released body cam
footage shows what happened just seconds before the deadly encounter. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Occupants of room 502. This is the Mesa Police. Listen to my instructions. I want the female to step out!
Occupants of room 502, I want the female to step out!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Joey, Pat, and Joining us, AnnEelise Goetz, attorney. Police were called to the hotel after reports of a man pointing
a riffle out of a hotel window. Pat, give me some more background on this.
LALAMA: All right. So, this guy, Daniel Shaver is in town on business. I believe he has a pest control company. He has got a woman in the hotel
room with him. People outside the hotel believed that they see him aiming a rifle. They call police and Mesa police come. A number of them come.
They do their due diligence, go up to the fifth floor, they make --
PINSKY: Uh-oh, we just lost Pat. You are looking at video of what happened just seconds before officers shot and killed this unarmed man.
Pat, are you back now? Pat, I will let you --
LALAMA: Can you hear me.
PINSKY: Go ahead, I got you now.
LALAMA: OK.
PINSKY: Let us finish what you were saying.
LALAMA: All right. Right in the middle of my thought. So, these cops come and two of them have body cams. One of them the officer in question,
the other sergeant. They plan it out, "How are we going to do this?" And, they call for the couple to come out. They call and they call and you hear
that on the tape. The couple does come out.
The woman does what she is supposed to do. She gets down on the ground and they bring her to safety. Daniel Shaver is crawling, and Phillip
Brailsford, the officer believes that he sees him reaching for his waistband. He shoots him five times.
You know the rest of the story. The thing about the body cam footage is that we are not seeing the actual incident. Therefore, this does not
really tell us anything about the officer`s state of mind or what happened in the physicality of it.
PINSKY: Joining us on the phone, I have Mark Geragos, Criminal Defense Attorney. Mark, you are representing Daniel`s widow. What else can you
tell us about that night?
MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR SHAVER`S WIDOW: I can tell you that based on the transcript of the audio that Daniel, prior to being assassinated,
because there is no other term for it, was pleading for his life, "Please do not kill me, please do not kill me."
He was on the ground. He had his arms out in front of him, pleading, crying. And, next thing you know, as he is -- apparently, one officer
says, trying to pull up his pants because they have got him crawling on the ground.
[19:40:06] He is shot in the back, the back of the neck, through the heart, through the arm, through the leg. Five times with an AR-15 that is
inscribed with some rather rude language in it. Nobody else fired, just the one officer; the one who is now charged with murder, who has been held
to answer.
I attended his preliminary hearing last week and listened to it. It is very difficult to listen to. My belief is that the reason you do not see
anything on this tape is because if you did see what happened, you would realize, and I think it is fair to say the reason that the District
Attorney charged murder in this case, is that there was absolutely no provocation, whatsoever.
PINSKY: Joining me via skype, I have Randy Sutton. He is a retired police lieutenant with Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, also national
spokesperson for "Blue Lives Matters." Randy, how can anyone justify what went down here? Is this just one of these horrible experiences that you
cannot justify?
RANDY SUTTON, LT., LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN P.D. (RET.) (via skype): This is indeed a horrible experience. But, I think as your earlier guest said that
we do not see the critical moment when the officer fired the rounds. And, that is indeed the critical moment, because if the perception of the police
officer at the moment that he fired his weapon, is it reasonable to believe that he was -- made an arm movement with his hand reaching for his
waistband?
PINSKY: All right.
SUTTON: -- If that happened --
PINSKY: Yes. OK. Let me introduce to you -- Pat, you want to address that? Go ahead.
LALAMA: Well, yes, that is really important, you know. And, I do believe that probably that portion of the tape is really perhaps prejudicial in the
judge`s mind and that is why we, the media, and the rest of the world cannot see it. I have to say as a member of the media, I actually agree
with that. I think that we put the cart before the horse if we are reporting on that stuff before a jury gets to see it.
PINSKY: AnneElise.
LALAMA: But, one quick thing, though.
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead, Pat. Go.
LALAMA: You know, L.A. Sheriff Jim McDonnell, I was talking to him recently about body cams. They do not have them at the Sheriff`s
Department. They have them at the LAPD, and I am talking about, of course, Southern California.
And, he said, "You know what? Keep in mind, body cams do not tell the whole story. They tell part of the story, not the whole story." And, I
think we really have to keep that in mind.
PINSKY: So, AnneElise, who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or what the guy says about what happens?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: I mean, when you come in and you have a prosecutor actually charge a police officer, it is going to be a pretty
good case, because those people are usually on the same team. And, yes, we do not have the critical moments from that particular officer`s body cam,
but we do have the moments from the officer that was next to them.
PINSKY: All right.
GOETZ: And, I think that we can see the fact that -- we can probably see what was happening, what was being perceived by that officer. And,
unfortunately, from what I understand, this is someone of a rookie officer. And, it seems to me that the situation of not being properly trained and,
unfortunately, a father lost his life as a result of it.
PINSKY: All right, Mark, let is have at it. Go ahead.
GERAGOS: Look, the problem -- like I said, I sat through the preliminary hearing. The officer who was doing -- who was supervising this was served
with a notice of investigation by the I.A. and promptly took his early retirement. Because, he was -- frankly, his actions were as outrageous.
And, I will tell you another thing --
JACKSON: That is not true. That is not true.
GERAGOS: No. That is absolutely true, and it was testified to under penalty of perjury. I was there, you were not. And, I will tell you, on
top of it, that the body camera, by the way, happens to be paid for by the taxpayers.
And, if this had been something where somebody believed for a second that this absolved an officer, I can guarantee you, it would have been released.
The only reason it is not being released is because to protect the officer`s right to a fair trial.
Because, otherwise, I will guarantee you right now, I will go out on a limb. This may be one of the worst takes of all time, because otherwise it
would have been released if there was any justification for this.
PINSKY: Now, let us talk about that next. Will the camera, the footage, the body camera and footage, help that officer in any way or as Mark
Geragos says, it is going to send him off to prison. We will be back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Occupants of room 502. Listen to my voice or I will have to send in the dog! Acknowledge me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are talking about the father of two, shot and killed by a police officer in Arizona in a hallway of a hotel. Just-released body cam
footage reveals the seconds leading up to the fatal encounter. I am back with Joey, Pat, AnneElise and Randy.
The two pellet guns were recovered from this man`s room. Mark, what is the story with the guns? The witnesses say, he was pointing them out the
window. What was that all about?
SUTTON: He was not pointing them out the window. Somebody had come in who was joining him had asked him what he does for a living. He said, "He is
in the pest control business." I think actually goes to Walmart. And, the guy was looking at it. The window in fact and the screen were on.
It was testified that the window was not open. There was no gun that was in the hallway. This was an unarmed man, who was ordered to the ground, to
put his hands on the ground. He was lying face down, was crying and pleading, "Do not shoot me, do not shoot me," and was executed.
PINSKY: Joey? What are your thoughts?
JACKSON: You know, the issue really is this. Police we know have a very difficult job, and generally the law supports them inasmuch as it says.
They have to make split-second decisions.
We cannot second-guess them by being Monday morning quarterback. Having said that, the point is not just to evaluate the perception, right? But to
evaluate whether the perception was reasonable.
[19:50:03] And, then when you look at that, you say, well, they had a vast opportunity to plan, right? It was not an emergency circumstance. No one
is being chased after. They are not leaping over things. They are plotting and planning. That is what we see.
And, then, after that, in terms of the plotting and planning, one particular officer discharges the firearm. According to Mark Geragos, the
location of the shot disturbs me greatly. And, then in addition to that, we are now hearing that the officer himself was not that experienced. And,
so, I think all that leads up to a big problem for the officer.
PINSKY: AnneElise.
JACKSON: The final point is, why is he charged with murder? That is an issue.
PINSKY: AnneElise, why?
GOETZ: I just think that we cannot discard the fact that when the officers came to the scene, they were told that this person had firearms and what
they were doing with them and whether it was true, if he had them out the window or not, that does go to explain what the officer`s mindset was when
they were going to investigate the person.
They are being told that there is firearms in the hotel room and may be on the person. And, that is going to be one of the key components of this
officer`s defense. Was it reasonable when he thought that he was going to his hip there, that he was pulling for a gun, because they were told there
was a gun there.
JACKSON: Does that, in and of itself -- I get it goes to mindset. I get officers encounter danger. I get the job is a very difficult thing. But,
the mere existence of firearms, does that equate within eminency of a danger that you have to respond with deadly force?
PINSKY: Hold on, Joey.
JACKSON: That is the issue.
PINSKY: Pat says yes.
LALAMA: No. I actually did not say it. I was just shaking my Italian head, because I wanted to say that, you know what? We are talking about a
dead man and we are talking about an officer`s freedom at stake and we have not seen the portion that Mark knows about.
Mark has had the benefit of hearing the prelim, which is so important. I have not and I think we have got to wait until we know more and we cannot
guess what was in this young man`s mind at the time.
PINSKY: All right, Randy, one last thing, though. He shot the guy five times in really lethal locations. Does it matter?
SUTTON: No. That is significant. But, you know, Mr. Geragos` characterization of this as an assassination and execution, I find
objectionable. And, the other part of this is you got to remember the human factor. This officer was inexperienced.
He was in fear. The adrenalin was surging through his body. And, what he had to do in that brief second, where he saw that hand movement, he made
that decision. Was it the proper one in this particular set of circumstances, absolutely not.
PINSKY: All right. We got to wrap this up.
JACKSON: He made five decisions. Five decisions, five shots.
PINSKY: We got to leave it. I got to leave it guys. As I wrap up, I want to remind everyone about a special report, Thursday on "Crime Watch Daily."
Pat, you have something that is pretty shocking. Tell us more.
LALAMA: Yes. I think you are going to love this yourself, Dr. Drew. It is called, "Consider the Consequences." It is a program down in Georgia
for young people in trouble. It is scared straight squared and it is really controversial.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Next up, is a former NFL Quarterback about to die? Friends are frightened by Johnny Manziel`s public behavior. We are
back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Is Johnny Manziel the next celebrity to crash and burn? He was the star college football player and
made it to the pros, where he screwed up over and over again. Now, he is most famous as a tabloid party boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Johnny Manziel is in trouble again. He is accused of having beaten up his ex-girlfriend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLEEN CROWLEY, MANZIEL`S EX-GHIRLFRIEND: He hit me with his open hand on my left ear for jumping out the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: For the ninth time in 22 days, here is a post about Johnny Manziel partying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COY WIRE, FMR. CNN`S SPORTS ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: he is partying in Vegas. There is this infamous photos of him, rolling up a $20 bill in the
bathroom, drinking champagne.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN LEAF, PROGRAM AMBASSADOR FOR TRANSCEND RECOVERY COMMUNITY FOR NFL PLAYER: You accept it and get the help or die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have an update tonight on a story we have been covering that seems to get worse as this disease does and progresses. Concerns about
Johnny Manziel are escalating over his alarming and public behavior.
TMZ cameras caught up with Manziel this weekend in Southern California. When asked about training, he said, quote, "He is doing it every single
day." Days later, TMZ witnessed him being kicked out of a Las Vegas nightclub.
His father said a few months ago, he would not make it to see age 24. Back with Joey and AnneElise. AnneElise, what is it going to take for this guy?
If he gets arrested and goes to prison or jail, that could save his life. Why is he skating by?
GOETZ: I do not know. I do not know. This guy has been given gift after gift and frankly, we are saying that we are concerned about Johnny. I am
concerned about anyone who happens to be around Johnny.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: He has got assault charges -- battery or assault charges for allegedly hitting his ex-girlfriend. He goes in the Vegas clubs, and
allegedly he is getting fights in Vegas clubs. There is a --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: A pattern --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: -- and a path of victims in this guy`s way. And, come on, he was given everything on a silver platter, and this is what he does?
PINSKY: Well --
GOETZ: Come on.
PINSKY: But, Joey, I do not feel -- you know, I understand we should not feel and say sorry for the guy, but he is not a well dude. And, he is
going to take whatever it is going to take to get better. He has to want to get better and take the treatment. His dad tried twice. He has
rejected it. I think something like jail is the only thing that is going to save him.
JACKSON: You know, I do not know. I mean he has a problem. And, people have problems. And, I am not going to judge him in that way. I am going
to hope and pray that he gets the help he needs. He is talented. He gets a ton of attention and he has got a ton of money.
And, a result of that, we have to be mindful of the fact that he is a young man, a very, very young man. And, so, I am not excusing the behavior, but
I think as oppose to vilifying him and crucifying him, I think the loved ones and people who care about him have to work it out, get it together, so
he can be well.
PINSKY: Yes. Look. They have tried. They have tried and I am all in favor of looking at this poor kid as suffering and having an illness, but
there has got to be consequences. And, the consequences -- dropping those consequences may save his life.
[20:00:00] Thank you panelists. Thank you all for watching. We do appreciate you. Please tell a friend. We will see you next time. Nancy
Grace, up next.
END
