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Dr. Drew
Prince Penning A Memoir Because He Had Some Sense That The End Was Approaching; New Information On Convict Who Claims He Is Prince`s Son; A Fugitive Mother Who Fled With Her Child Gives Up After Being On The Run For Almost Two Years; The Woman Who Was Paid To Carry Triplets Is Now Locked In A Battle Over The Babies; An Update On The Fugitive Mother Of The Girl Kept Chained In A Basement, Now Arrested
Aired May 26, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:16] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
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PRINCE ROGERS NELSON, RECORDING ARTIST AND PRODUCER: My music is my music. That is pretty much what you come to the party for.
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PRINCE: I wanted my music as even now, to speak loudest for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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PRINCE (singing): I want to be your fantasy. Maybe you could be mine.
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PRINCE: If I give you something else, that is me giving you something else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Was music legend Prince ready to give his fans something else the form of a tell all memoir. And, if so, was he
inspired because he knew the end was near?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE (singing): I will never beat you. I will never lie. And, if you are evil I will forgive you by and by. I would die for you, yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: That is the question. Was prince penning a memoir because he had some sense that the
end was approaching? We will get into that in a moment. But first, new information on the convict, who claims he is Prince`s son.
Joining me Anahita Sedaghatfar, Criminal Defense Attorney, Of Counsel to the Cochran Firm; Jasmine Simpkins, senior producer and reporter,
HipHollywood.Com and Sara Sidner, CNN Correspondent. Sara, what have you learned about the so-called inmate, who calls Prince, "Dad."
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. He is 39 years old. His name is Mr. Carlin. And, it is interesting if you look at some of the paperwork
that has been filed in court, basically his mother said that she met Prince in 1976 and that is when she conceived, and I apologize for the truck going
by. But, that is when she conceived Prince.
That would make Prince somewhere between 17 and 18 years old. So, very, very young, very, very early on in his career and in his life really.
And, basically, what we have learned from the courts now is that it is most likely that he will probably be the first person who is asked to take a DNA
test to confirm or to refute whether or not he is actually related to Prince by blood.
And, the reason for that is, as the son of Prince, if he happens to be the son of prince, the game is over. He is the sole heir of Prince`s
estate. So, that I think is why they would go ahead and go for that first to say, "Hey, you are the first person, you have to pay for the DNA test
yourself."
But, he is also in prison. And, so, that makes some bit of complication as you might imagine. But, I am sure he has an attorney. I
know he does. I talked to one of his attorneys. They have not commented at all on any of these details.
PINSKY: Well, Anahita, why do not you run out there and offer your defense services. This man is going to have plenty of reasons. Hire the
best attorneys. Now, Sara, new information, apparently, on the four people in Prince`s home around the time he was discovered dead. Tell me about
that.
SIDNER: Right. Meron Bekure was one of the people here. That is Prince`s assistant. Kirk Johnson here as well. And, we ended up talking
to them. We ended up talking to their attorneys to be fair. Every single one of the people that were here, including Dr. Michael Schulenberg and the
other three, every single one now has an attorney.
I have spoken to each and every one of the attorneys. For example, Michael Schulenburg who came after the paramedics, but who was supposedly
here giving over paperwork to Prince from tests that he did on Prince the day before and on April 7th. His attorney said, "Look, he is cooperating
with investigators."
We do know, Dr. Drew, that investigators are looking very closely at Prince`s inner circle and at doctors and at anyone who may have been giving
him opioid pain medications. They are certainly looking deeply into that trying to figure out exactly what it is and how he was getting some of
this.
Now, we do know also from investigators that there were drugs found on Prince`s body. Those were opioid pain medications and in his home.
And, that is from law enforcement sources. But, every single one of the people now that were inside the house, who ended up finding Prince dead,
they all have attorneys and are talking.
And, I do want to give you some idea. One of the people is a longtime friend of Prince. He, perhaps, knew him longer than anyone else
in that house. He is also his drummer. He was also his estate manager. So, very, very close to Prince would be considered inner, inner circle.
And, he made a statement when we asked, "Hey, is there anything that you have to say about the investigation, anything you have to say about
that day you discovered him dead?" And, he sent out through his attorney a statement, basically saying that he is heartbroken.
[19:05:00] That he was longtime friends with Prince, worked with him for many, many years, but that Prince loved his privacy and he wants people
to respect. Kirk Johnson wants people to respect his privacy in the way they respected Prince`s privacy.
PINSKY: Thanks, Sara.
SIDNER: I do not think that is going to happen --
PINSKY: No, I do not think so.
SIDNER: -- because with the investigation, obviously, a lot of people want to know the answers.
PINSKY: Thank you, Sara. Now, Anahita, they have all lawyered up and they do not speak. Does that suggest they have some liability?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. But, I can tell you, it is very smart of all of these people to get lawyers. It has nothing to
do with guilt, innocence, culpability. This is a high profile case.
You are talking about man, a young man who was obviously healthy as far as we know who dropped to dead and died. So, I think it is very smart
for these people to lawyer up and make sure they are doing everything the right way.
PINSKY: Jasmine, we are looking at footage of Prince now performing. I have seen footage recently, relatively recent performances where prince
was leaping off of stages. I do not know of any hip patients on earth that can leap off of four or six foot stages.
I do not care how much, unless they are unconscious on opioids. So, to me, this whole hip story, I do not buy it. I am sure he had hip
injuries. But, it does not pass the sniff test as why so many drugs got going. Again, I am not blaming Prince. I think he just got terribly
mismanaged and the opioids caused the pain syndrome.
JASMINE SIMPKINS, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I would agree. I mean, it is very perplexing how a man who, you know, has been reported to have
injuries, even of his ankle, Dr. Drew. They are saying he had ankle injuries and hip injuries, but he danced magnificently. So, there is some
stuff that I am sure we are going to find out very, very soon that was behind this mystery, you know, death.
PINSKY: I am going to tell you, it is not a mystery to me. I see it all of the time, where people developed these pain syndromes. Even reflex
sympathetic dystrophy, I am becoming convinced is related to chronic opioid use.
And, people get pain that, yes they may have had a minor injury and God knows he should have had injuries the way he was -- I saw him leaping
off stages. And, he may have injured himself right there, but he did not have a chronic injury. And, then being -- it is just not possible.
I mean, football players go back to playing football but that is after they have had reparative surgeries. They do not sit around with a
chronic injury and try to get through it with pain med. They cannot do it. You just cannot do it. Jasmine, what about this Prince memoir?
SIMPKINS: Great things we are hearing about this memoir that Prince was not only writing a memoir. He already had a publisher lined up and he
had a name even. He was scheduled -- it was being reported that he was going to call the book the beautiful ones and that random house is actually
going to publish the book as early as fall of 2017.
We are also hearing that Prince actually talked about this book during an intimate performance that he had a few months ago in New York
City. And, he told the crowd that the memoir would start all of the way back to his earliest childhood memory and take us all the way through his
2007 Super Bowl performance, which many are calling the greatest Super Bowl performance of all time, by the way.
TMZ is also reporting that there were about 50 pages written. And, Prince did not start writing it until a few months ago. So, he got through
50 pages pretty quickly. But, what we are wondering is if this man started writing a memoir, did he know the end was near? Why now? He was such a
private guy. Why start writing this memoir. Did he know that perhaps there was some expiration date coming for him?
PINSKY: Right. What begs the issue, was there some underlying chronic or significant medical illness that we have not found out about
yet, but it will be revealed when the autopsy results come in. Again, I am saying eight weeks on those autopsy results.
Next up, a fugitive mother who fled with her child gives up after being on the run for almost two years.
And still to come, a surrogate gave birth to triplets. Now, wants the babies and is going to court to get them. Back after this.
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[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHELSEA CULLUN, FUGUTIVE MOM: I am his target. I am his victim.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Chelsea Cullen, dubbed the "fugitive mom" now in police custody after two years on the run with her son.
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ART HARRIS, CBS46 INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Wanted for interstate interference with custody that she shared with this man, Michael Hambrick.
A father with three mugshots including this one after he punched the moth of his first child in the face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Cullen said she ran to escape an abusive relationship.
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CULLEN: I would be gambling with my life.
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HARRIS: District attorney says Chelsea Cullen is lying.
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DANNY PORTER, GWINNETT COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Her justification is that she was the victim of domestic abuse. Now, I am saying there is no
evidence to support that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Chelsea Cullen, so called "fugitive mom" turned herself into authorities tonight. Though she is out on bond, she and the ex-boyfriend
shared custody of their son. But, Cullen said she feared for her life and her son`s and that forced her to flee with the child. I am back with
Anahita.
Joining us Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist and professor at Pepperdine University and Troy Slaten, Criminal Defense Attorney. Also by phone, I
have Victoria Taft, investigative reporter. Victoria, give me some more details about this story.
VICTORIA TAFT, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via phone): Well, it all goes back to June of 2014, Dr. Drew, from Atlanta. And, she was sharing her
home with her partner, Michael Hambrick. And, before she left, the preschool teacher made at least two 911 calls to the cops to come save her.
Some thought that was just a hoax giving her an excuse for her to bail for what we do not know. She claims to be running away from an abusive
situation.
And, while she was on the run, she gave an interview from a quote, unquote, "secret location" to a reporter in which she said that the
prosecutor in the case was for some reason trying to get her and that she was just standing up for herself and protecting her son against an abusive
relationship. She was afraid she said.
Well, fast forward to last month, in April. The prosecutor who says that Chelsea Cullen is lying about running away turned up the heat on
fugitive mom by waiting at her parents` home and another relative`s home.
[19:15:03] And, the prosecutor warning to Chelsea and her family was, "She is going to come back in an orange jumpsuit. And, if I find out
that her parents helped out, they will be in jumpsuits as well." That is what the fugitive mom says it freaked her out a little bit and got her to
gives herself up --
PINSKY: Thanks, Victoria.
TAFT: Yes. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Thanks, Victoria. We have some of that from our affiliate WGCL. They spoke to Chelsea a few months ago while she was in hiding as
described. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULLEN: My biggest fear is that Michael finds me, because I really do not know what he would do. I am his target. I am his victim. I would be
gambling with my life and Lane`s life. Who would protect him if I was gone?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anahita, this prosecutor seems as abusive as the husband or the boyfriend is alleged to have been.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with that, Dr. Drew. And, I am not saying what this woman did was right here, but come on. I mean, I think it is totally
believable that she could have been a victim of domestic violence and that she is not lying.
She is a young woman. She had no prior criminal record. She was a great teacher as far as everybody was concerned. And, then you look at the
boyfriend, he had a prior conviction for domestic violence. He has a criminal record. And, he is not the most credible guy.
He went on the record, Dr. Drew, and said, "I spent $200,000 of my own money trying to find my girlfriend and my child." And, yet his tax
returns show that would be literally impossible. He never had that kind of money. So, I am not quite sure why the D.A. is just pushing. This is a
child abduction case. It is not like a murder case here.
PINSKY: Right. And, Troy, A. Do you agree with Anahita and B. Really calling out the U.S. Marshals on this woman`s parents? Give me a break.
TROY SLATEN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, number one, I do not agree with her. This woman is a criminal. She stole the child and kidnapped him.
Took him across state lines and it was clear that she was trying to engage in parental alienation. She was trying to have this child have bonding
time away from the father and trying to maybe even turn the child against the father. This is absolutely.
And, the D.A. did the right thing. This is the same D.A. that had previously prosecuted the father. So, he is not on the father`s side.
And, what he did here was absolutely right --
SEDAGHATFAR: The U.S. Marshalls.
SLATEN: -- by bringing in the marshals.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, the U.S. Marshals that are conducting raids in the middle of the night that are literally seizing computers, cell
phones, documents. They are going all to these different states over a child custody case?
SLATEN: No. Over a fugitive.
SEDAGHATFAR: That seems a bit too much -- yes, a child custody case.
SLATEN: This is a woman who --
SEDAGHATFAR: This is not a serial killer. This is not a mass murderer.
SLATEN: She was trying to skirt the law.
SEDAGHATFAR: This is not anyone, who is a danger to anybody. And, I --
SLATEN: But, marshals go after any fugitive, Dr. Drew.
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not understand this D.A.
SLATEN: That is what they do. And --
SEDAGHATFAR: This D.A. summarily dismissed her claims of domestic violence. Hey, how about investigating those claims. How about
interviewing people.
SLATEN: He did.
SEDAGHATFAR: No. There were summarily dismissed.
SLATEN: He said that there is no evidence.
PINSKY: Hang on. Do we have any of the 911 calls? Do we have that? I believe, as you heard, there were at least two 911 calls made by this
woman asking for help. Do we have anything like that? OK. We are going to get it to you in the next block. Judy, what should she have done?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, well, I am very sympathetic to victims of domestic violence. And, even, if that was true
in this case, there are many different options that she could have taken. Did she even call a domestic violence hotline?
Did she even try to go and admit herself to a domestic violence shelter, where there are many all across the country? She could have gone
to her family, hid with them for a few days. Get an attorney in order. If she was afraid of the father --
PINSKY: Judy. Judy, I am going to interrupt you. To be fair, Judy, to be fair, a lot of women do not know how that works and what the option
is. There is a great deal of shame involved in this and she had -- but she believed imminently that she and her child were in danger. Is not that
reason enough to take off?
HO: But is it reason to take off for over two years, Dr. Drew? I think there is something here that we have to look at.
PINSKY: first of all, she thought it was a good idea to have a baby with this dude.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: So, already, it takes two to tango with this situation.
HO: That is right. Her decision-making is not great, right?
PINSKY: Right. Right. Number one. But number two, here is my biggest concern -- we are going to take a break after I make this point,
which is that when somebody is a domestic abuse perpetrator, unless they have treatment, and Judy back me up on this, they are very likely to do it
again, right?
HO: That is absolutely right.
PINSKY: OK. OK.
HO: And, that is the part of her history that I am very fearful of.
PINSKY: That is right. And, so, what you need to know is was this guy treated or not? If not, the probability of these allegations being
true, very high. But maybe she just angry at that guy and could she be lying just to punish the father, I do not know, for whatever reason. Maybe
he cheated or something.
And, still to come, the woman who was paid to carry triplets is now locked in a battle over the babies. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULLEN: My biggest fear is that Michael finds me, because I really do not know what he would do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She has been a wanted woman for the last two years and pursued by U.S. Marshals who visited friends and family from
Macon, Georgia to Alaska to try to find her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: And, that is Michael Hambrick, a Braselton Plumbing contractor. Hambrick claimed he spent $200,000 on lawyers and private eyes
to find his son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PORTER: Her justification is that she was a victim of domestic abuse. And, I am saying there is no evidence to support that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The former preschool teacher called fugitive mom turned herself in after two years on the run. She claims she fled to save her
child and herself from an abusive ex. The night she fled with her son, she made this 911 call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULLEN (on phone): I am in my home. My baby and my sister are outside. And, my boyfriend`s sister is outside and she is banging and
threatening to come in the house. I am physically afraid for my life and my son. I need you to come here now. Please hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 911 DISPATCHER: Why would she want to get into your home?
CULLEN: Because he does not want me to be in the house that I live in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 911 DISPATCHER: He does not want you to be in the house you are living in?
CULLEN: Yes. We live here together and he is mad at me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:00] PINSKY: Back with Anahita, Judy and Troy. And, joining me by phone, I got Christina Dalpiaz. She is a domestic abuse survivor.
She is also an expert on the topic now. And, Christina, do we buy this woman`s story and do you think she was actually in fear for her life?
CHRISTINA DALPIAZ, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SURVIVOR & EXPERT: I absolutely think she was in fear for her life. What she did, nobody goes underground
and tries to hide from their family their friends.
They give up their job and do all that, simply to get even with somebody. That 911 call demonstrated to me that she really was afraid.
That she actually said in one of her articles, I do not want to poke the bear. OK." --
PINSKY: Christina, go ahead. Did I lose you?
DALPIAZ: No. No. She said she did not want to poke the bear. And, a lot of victims of domestic violence, what they do is take ownership of
the abuse --
PINSKY: Yes.
DALPIAZ: Simply because the propaganda they have been fed by the abusive person is that this is your fault and that somehow you can control
this.
PINSKY: The district attorney says she is lying. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PORTER: I mean I know what she says but none of that ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PORTER: This is not a case of domestic violence. I do not know how many times I can tell you that. This is not. She is not telling the
truth. There is no evidence.
She is going to come back, be in an orange jump suit. She will be in handcuffs. If I find out that her parents aided in it, they will come back
in an orange jump suit. I do not like pith spitting in my face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anahita, how can he be so sure of that? Number one. And, number two, it sounds like retribution. "I do not like people spitting on
my face." Did she spit in his face because she left town?
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly. How do you come to that determination when you have not even interviewed her? She was not even there. How do you know
for sure whether or not she was the victim of domestic violence? And, it does seem that the D.A. has some sort of personal vendetta going on.
And, the ironic thing about all of this is that he had the U.S. Marshals, all of these authorities looking for this woman for two years,
yet they were not able to find her. Remember, she turned herself in. Yet a local T.V. reporter, Dr. Drew, was able to locate her?
PINSKY: Yes. Wow!
SEDAGHATFAR: Come on.
PINSKY: And, U.S. Marshals dug into the parents, right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: And, did not find anything problematic. But Troy you, you side with this D.A., right?
SLATEN: Yes. He has no personal vendetta against her.
PINSKY: He said, "I do not like people who spitting in my face." He spelled it out right there.
SLATEN: Dr. Drew, he has a personal vendetta against crime. And, what he did here, he gave her mom his personal cell phone number and said,
"Please have your daughter call me. My phone is on 24 hours a day. If she comes back right now I will not charge her with a crime." And, what did
she do? Stay away for another year until her family started becoming at risk for being prosecuted for aiding and abetting a fugitive.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on. Hold on. So, Anahita -- the attorney, the defense attorney, if your client called up and said, "You
know, the D.A. just called me. He said call him and he will not charge me. I am going to call him." What would you say?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not know the fact that you can even believe that. Look at what happened to Bill Cosby. He had an agreement from his
prosecutor under oath that he would not be prosecuted criminally if he gave testimony in the case. And, look at what they are doing to him now. So, I
do not know that, that is realiable --
SLATEN: That is ludicrous.
SEDAGHATFAR: That might be a tactic. That might be --
PINSKY: Not ludicrous.
SEDAGHATFAR: It just happened recently, so --
PINSKY: Judy, what is your reaction when you hear that D.A. going off like that?
HO: I really do think that there is a personal vendetta there. And, you know, crime or not, here is my biggest issue with why she acted the way
she did. Did she think at one point that she is running from the law, so that when she gets caught she is going to get taken away from her baby and
that, actually, is what worries me.
Because if she is the mostly positive influence in this child`s life, at some point during those two years should she have rethought those
actions and said, "OK, I ran away because I was scared and now I would like to rethink what I need to go next because I do want to stay in this child`s
life and not get taken away behind bars, and then he goes back to a possibly abusive father."
PINSKY: Christina, what do you think?
DALPIAZ (via phone): I successfully prosecuted this guy for abuse. So, he believed in his heart that this guy was guilty and he thinks he is
going to change. I mean, he has had other things, other convictions against him.
Dr. Drew, if you were in the woods and someone beat you and no one was there to hear you scream, would that mean you were not really abused?
I mean, this woman has been abused and other women have been abused and he has not had the treatment -- Has he had treatment and therapy? I do not
think so.
PINSKY: I agree.
SLATEN: We do not know if there was any abuse.
PINSKY: Well, look. But, the point is, Troy is if this man has not been treated, the probability of him being abuser is so high. And, what
Christina points out is because people do not witness it, again because of the shame and secrecy and guilt that goes along with being a victim of
this, often people do not.
And, they go further, well, she went back. She went back to him and he abused her again. So, it is her fault for going back. Nonsense. It is
a mind control. It is A coercive relationship. That is how people end up going back to abusers. It is only when they got --
[19:30:05] SLATEN: But, usually --
PINSKY: Usually what, Troy? Give me one second, go.
SLATEN: Usually, when there is abuse there is evidence.
PINSKY: Really?
SLATEN: There is physical evidence.
HO: Troy, no.
PINSKY: No, usually there is not. Usually, there is not.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Would you agree, Judy?
HO: I absolutely agree. Troy, that is not true. And, the recidivism of repeated abuse without proper intervention is so high, you do not want
to know about it. It is at least 70 to 80, maybe even 90 percent in some studies.
PINSKY: All right. Next from a mother on the run to another mother, who is battling for babies, babies she really has no legal right to.
Still to come, an update on the fugitive mother of the girl kept chained in a basement now arrested. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A 48-year-old Melissa Cook says she will never give up her fight to see the three babies she gave birth to as a
surrogate. But Cook, who is already the mother of four says early in the pregnancy the biological father told her he no longer wanted three babies,
saying he could not afford all of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:13] MELISSA COOK, SURROGATE MOM: The babies are moving in me. They are kicking. I am not doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Cook continued the pregnancy, giving birth to three healthy babies earlier this year. The genetic father took
them home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOK: I loved them while they were in me. I love them still.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Now, Cook is taking her fight to court telling ABC News, she is suing to ensure the children are in good hands and
to have California surrogacy laws change.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: A surrogate who carried triplets for one man, not a couple, one man, she says she wants custody of the babies. Back with Anahita,
Judy, Troy and Victoria. Melissa Cook signed a surrogacy contract with a man called C.M.
They used his sperm and donor eggs. But, Melissa says, C.M. is not fit to care for all three babies. Victoria, what do we know about the man
in this story? -- I am not hearing Victoria. Is anybody else? OK.
TAFT: As you can see --
PINSKY: Here she is.
TAFT: -- and you have already mentioned that he is a single 50-year- old man. A postal worker as we understand it. And, in addition to that, he is deaf and he also has taken his parents in to living into his home,
living with them.
So, he is an unusual candidate for a surrogacy, but here you are. But, he also told her that he could not afford to have three children and
that is the linchpin of her legal fight.
PINSKY: And, now, they are saying that -- I will read you what the attorney says. "C.M. is committed to his children. He is caring for them.
We are not denying the fact that it is difficult to take care of triplets." I have triplets. I will tell you, one man cannot do it, as it would be for
anybody. Thank you. "But he is loving and cherishing it every day."
He has got to have other people helping him. That is it. Now, what Melissa claims that C.M. asked her to abort one of the babies because,
quote, "He was not financially capable of caring for three children."
But his attorney says, "He asked her to abort the babies for the sake of her health and the health of the children." And, he did not have that
option under the terms of their surrogacy contract.
But Anahita, look, let me straighten out the facts here from a medical standpoint. A high risk obstetrician will get them three healthy
babies. It is a high risk pregnancy, but it is a pregnancy that can be seen through and obviously did get seen through.
I am pretty clear that if they were telling her to do, what is called a selective reduction, which is abort one of the babies, the reason would
be the care taking stresses. We were advised that.
Somebody sat down with us and said "Have two, do not have three. Your marriage will not make it. The emotional impact is too great."
Somebody may have sat down and told him the same thing and then this mother tried to protect the child. Not so unreasonable, is it?
SEDAGHATFAR: But, here is the thing. No one can force anybody in this country to have an abortion. So, even if that was his right. If that
was in the contract, that is no way enforceable. I mean no court is going to enforce that.
PINSKY: And, let me point out. A selective reduction is where they - - Let us talk about how gruesome it is.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: You are talking about a 15-week pregnancy. You are putting a giant needle through the abdominal wall of the pregnant woman, injecting
poisons into one of the babies and it tends to get reabsorbed by the baby`s mom, living two behind, and about a 5 percent chance of losing the entire
pregnancy. But, finish your point, Anahita. I am sorry.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, my point is, OK, having said that, he cannot force her to have an abortion. It has to be her choice. She does not get
custody of these kids. I mean she entered into a legally binding contract. She knew what she was doing.
In fact, she was a surrogate before, Dr. Drew. So, she cannot unilaterally decide, "I think he is an unfit parent, therefore I should
have custody of these children. Throw away the contract. Throw away California law." It does not work that way. It is not up to her to make
that determination.
PINSKY: But, wait a minute. Troy, I think what she is saying is you could have that Anahita if -- that is my wife. That is my wife. I had
with her triplet pregnancy, right there. Can you imagine that?
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh, wow.
PINSKY: Those are my kids.
SEDAGHATFAR: So cute.
PINSKY: Yes. And, it was intense. My hair turned gray that year. Thank you very much. It is funny, but it is not. And, we are all good
now. Everyone is out of college and what not, and everybody is fine.
But, what Anahita was saying about the fitness of the dad, could that woman make the case that, "I love these children. I feel like it is my
responsibility to protect them from this mom, who wanted one of them killed."
SLATEN: It is too late for that, Dr. Drew. California places a high value on the contract. And, as long as they were both represented by
attorneys, and it seems like they were here, then the contract is going to prevail.
PINSKY: All right. So, hold on. So, Troy and Anahita agree, which is a very scary thing in and of itself. So, Judy, you and I let us talk
like human beings for a second. I am sympathetic to what this woman is saying. Are you?
HO: I am very sympathetic.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Yes. And, you know, she carried those babies for nine months.
PINSKY: Yes.
[19:40:00] HO: So, you are going to have this relationship. You are going to have a development of feelings. And, right now, she is very
concerned about these kids because not only did he ask her once, they then, you know, continued this discussion.
And, it got kind of contentious about, "Can you do this? Can you abort this baby?" Now, putting the reason of whether he asked her because
of medical issues or because of finances aside, I also sympathize with the father. Because the father is really looking at this and saying, "I am a
single dad and I am a postal worker."
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, like you said, they may have got advice somewhere and she was trying to follow through.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, she really reacted in a strong way. I believe they both have a point here.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
HO: And, I am concerned about the children.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, if her concern is that he is not a fit parent because he cannot afford to have all of these kids, why is she putting him
through this litigation. This is just causing him more and more money. It is a losing battle.
PINSKY: Yes. Good point.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. I think --
PINSKY: And, maybe there were medical issues we have not heard about yet. And, I am going to speak to the attorney for the triplets` father.
He is here. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Melissa Cook claims when she gave birth to triplets they were taken from her immediately. She was not allowed to see them or breast feed
them. And, two security guards were posted on her floor to be sure she would not see the babies.
She told us, quote, "No children should suffer from a force separation from their mother who loves them." Back with Anahita, Judy and
Troy. But, Anahita, she is not the mother. She was the surrogate carrier. And, I understand that she had deep connection. She is still not the
mother.
SEDAGHATFAR: I understand that. I sympathize wither her. I do. She did carry these children for nine months, but she is not the biological
mother. And, even if she was, Dr. Drew, she entered into a binding contract. She knew what she was getting into.
If she felt that it was going to be traumatic for her to give these children away, then maybe she should not have been a surrogate. And, she
has four other children. So, she really should have known better and I am really questioning what her motivation is by doing this.
PINSKY: Joining me on the phone, I have Robert Walmsley. He is attorney for the biological father of the triplets, we call him C.M. Now,
Robert, you say this surrogate Melissa actually pursued your client to be the surrogate.
ROBERT WALMSLEY, ATTY. FOR TRIPLETS` BIOLOGICAL FATHER: Yes, she actively pursued him. She came to us offering herself to serve as a
surrogate for one of our clients, and in fact we turned her away initially, largely because of her age and our concern for her welfare and whether she
was in a position to be a surrogate, albeit she had been a surrogate once before successfully by the way.
And, she did return multiple times. She had obtained medical approval, so to speak, from her own physician saying she was perfectly find
and capable of going through a surrogacy arrangement. So, in fact, she actively pursued the arrangement.
PINSKY: How do you feel her motivation has changed since the babies were born?
WALMSLEY: Well, initially, it was pretty clear that her motivation was in large part financial. And, whenever you are working with a
surrogate, we always understand and appreciate there is a financial motivation. But, we are also looking for an altruistic motivation as well,
and she presented that.
My sense is that she has been drawn to the limelight, so to speak. She wants the attention. She is pursued, actively pursued the attention.
In fact, my client has done everything he can to the contrary, to stay out of the limelight.
And, I also am of the belief that she has been essentially adopted by somewhat of a radical fanatical organization that is largely anti-
surrogacy. And, they have pulled her under their wings or taken them under their wings and are using her in this endeavor, unfortunately.
PINSKY: Anti-surrogate group. That is interesting. And, what were the medical problems that you allege were leading people to discuss a
selective reduction?
WALMSLEY: Well, first I am not a doctor, so I always will defer to the experts, meaning the physicians. We conversed with the perinatologist
that was involved with this or physician as well as fertility specialist. And, my client had as well by the way. I was involved in conference calls.
PINSKY: Robert, let me interrupt you. Mr. Robert, is this your specialty? Is surrogacy, this sort of thing and fertility?
WALMSLEY: It is somewhat of my specialty.
PINSKY: I see.
WALMSLEY: I have taken a particular interest in this field for -- well since 1993, having worked on some of the first surrogacy cases in
California.
PINSKY: I know that the high risk obstetricians will sit parents down or potential parents or future parents and say the risk of triplets is not
just during the pregnancy. It is what follows. Did he get that kind of advice? And, was that what motivate it?
WALMSLEY: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALMSLEY: Right. Potential brain injury, permanent brain injury, not to mention, you know -- which can come in all different shapes. You
know, not to mention various other organ abnormalities.
PINSKY: Well, we were counseled that was not just about the medical consequence. It is very difficult to meet the needs of three babies
simultaneously and that there may be real consequences from just that point but child rearing standpoint.
And, I wonder if he got some advice about that and this mother felt - - the surrogate felt she now doubts his judgment or something because of some guidance he got outside of the medical issue.
WALMSLEY: He was undoubtedly informed that caring for three children --
PINSKY: OK.
WALMSLEY: -- would be a substantial undertaken.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALMSLEY: A significant one.
PINSKY: And, I am certain he is really finding that to be the case right now. Troy or Anahita --
WALMSLEY: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Hang on. Do you have any questions for the attorney?
[19:50:00] SLATEN: Yes. I mean, I want to know, in your opinion, does it seem like she is doing what is in the best interest of the child,
right now? Because it seems to me like by putting the father through all this, she is really depriving the children of the necessary resources.
PINSKY: And, let me pile on that. We actually received a tweet, that is when as followed. "Dr. Drew, can she be charged with harassment. Leave
this man alone with his children." People were asking are there other legal remedies for him?
WALMSLEY: Well, there are multiple questions there. First of, she is acting contrary to the best interest of the child. If she wanted to
support these children, she would do everything she could to support our client in terms of the care of the child and not try to deprive him and
deplete any resources that he may have and maybe able to dedicate for the care for this children.
That is the first issue. In terms of charging her criminally -- let me be clear of something. My client really -- I mean, he cannot tolerate,
does not like what is happening in terms of the cases, but he really does not have any ill feelings towards her.
PINSKY: All right. OK. Which is nice. Judy, you and I were both feeling uncomfortable with the idea of this woman, who is having
understandable feelings, deep, deep profound, you know, sort of biological connection to children. We are going to punish her for that.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: On the other hand, this is a complicated situation. We are going to leave it right there.
Next up, another mother behaving badly. The woman who gave birth to the girl who was held captive in her stepfather`s basement; the mother now
arrested. We have an update on that story we had brought to you earlier in the week. There is the father. There is the mother. We are back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN LAUDERMILL, CALLED 911: I seen a young girl that was 13-years old. And, she was having problems at home and she had a lot of bags and
she had ran away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Your 13-year-old daughter claims she was held captive in your basement on Noble Street. Shackled to a beam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIMOTHY CIBORO, CHARGED WITH KIDNAPPING AND CHILD ENDANGERMENT TO HIS TEEN STEPDAUGHTER: she wanted to be with people that I did not want -- I
knew was not good for her, her well-being.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: She said she was fed food scraps and forced to use a bucket as a toilet
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Really, the question is --
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Drew.
JORDASN: Where is this girl`s mother?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Her mother is a fugitive in Las Vegas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, no longer in Las Vegas. The mother has been arrested in Ohio. She appeared in court this morning for an unrelated 2009 theft
charge. Now, this is an update of this terrible story we brought you earlier this week.
I am joined by phone by WTOL`s Joe Stoll. He broke the story in Toledo. Joe, does the mom have any responsibility for what is alleged to
have happened in that basement?
JOE STOLL, WTOL REPORTER: At this point, it is still unclear if she is going to face any charges in connection with this. She was in court,
like you said, on that unrelated charge from 2009. And, so, I was there this morning for that court hearing. And she cried.
And, her relatives were in court with her, two sisters and a brother. And, everyone is just sort of waiting to see, you know, will she have any
sort of repercussions of what happened here?
PINSKY: Is that sister the one you spoke to, that we have some footage of here?
STOLL: That was Shirley Noble. I talked to her after just court today. She was really upset, but wanted to tell me that she forgives her
sister. She said that --
PINSKY: Let me show you. I have the footage, Joe. Let me show you that right now. Let us do that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY NOBLE, SISTER OF STAFONDA HAWKINS: I guess she just got caught up in some stuff that she should try to leave her kid somewhere and
try to start a new life. I thought the house was vacant, because I used to go by there.
I never did see the kids, so I thought they had moved. I do not hate her for nothing. I mean, things happen in life, you know. A lot of things
happen in life. She made mistakes, you know, for doing certain things to people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judy, I am sorry. I am sorry for that woman. I am sorry for her family. But, she just made some mistakes. She just got caught up
in some stuff? Are you talking about extreme minimization of some profound problems in this woman ` parenting.
HO: That is right. And, you know, these young children, all they really need is one stable figure. Does not even have to be their
biological parent, as long as there is one stable figure there to give them that support and to raise them.
Then they do not develop those problem-solving issues, those social skills issues and those memory ruptures that we see in children who are
abandoned. And, so, somebody could have saved this child from what happened.
PINSKY: The girl told police she had not seen her mom since 2012. The mom`s rap sheet is pages long, includes her forgery, assault, burglary,
grand theft. And, the dad not a model citizen either.
Stafonda and the step dad, that is the mom and the stepdad, each are parents to three children, Judy. Each are parents to three children. And
at what point do we say enough?
HO: Yes. At what point do we take them away and give these parents some parenting skills before we actually let these children back into their
lives? They are doing more harm than good.
PINSKY: She just got caught up in some stuff, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR : It reminds me --
PINSKY: Just caught up with some stuff.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, yes. The issue, Dr. Drew, really is going to be did she know that this was going on with her daughter or did she even
actively participate?
PINSKY: Come on.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right? Well, apparently, she was in another state that she had not seen or talked to her daughter, according to the daughter.
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: We do not know.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, certainly, if she was involved she should be charged.
PINSKY: I want to switch gear to a happier note. Shout out to our friend, Kayleigh McEnany. You are fine first before CNN get their hands on
you. She graduated from Harvard Law School today. She managed to do this all the while appearing on CNN, almost every day as part of the network`s
election coverage.
Congratulations to Kayleigh. And, good judgment, CNN for taking yet another one of our staff, our panelist. DVR us then you can watch us any
time. We do appreciate you watching the program. Please do tell a friend. We will see you next time. Nancy Grace up next.
[20:00:00]
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