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Dr. Drew
Accusations Of Blackmail, Abuse, And Million Dollar Money Grab: Amber Heard Versus Johnny Depp; Who Is To Blame For The Death Of A Rare Gorilla?; Scandal Over An Allegedly Vicious Sexual Assault; Actor Found Guilty Of Murdering His Wife. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 31, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:16] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM (voice-over): Did Johnny Depp abused his wife of 15 months, actress Amber Heard? Will her
accusations hold up? Days after filing for divorce and asking for spousal support, Amber sought a restraining order. In court paper, she claims
verbal and physical abuse and that he has a, quote, "short fuse."
She says her latest encounter with Johnny was so violent it left her injured, that he grabbed her cell phone, quote, "wound up his arm like a
baseball pitcher," unquote, and threw it at her face. He denies it. He says she is just trying to get fast and easy money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on camera): Breaking news tonight. Accusations of blackmail, abuse and a million dollar money grab. Amber Heard versus Johnny Depp
began as a celebrity divorce. In just one week, it has now escalated into a scandal with very serious consequences. Witnesses now are choosing
sides.
Joining me, Sara Azari, Criminal Defense Attorney; Lisa Bloom, Family Law Attorney with the Bloom Firm, Legal Analyst with Avvo.com; Dax Holt,
reporter at TMZ and Spirit, Psychotherapist. Dax, you first. TMZ is reporting on what you, guys, were calling ear witnesses. Tell me about
them.
DAX HOLT, TMZ REPORTER: Yes, I can tell you our sources are connected to this case. They are saying that there are actually two security guards
inside the apartment at the time of the argument on last Saturday, that they were standing near the front door and giving the couple a space during
their argument.
At some point during the argument, they hear amber yell out, "Stop hitting me." The two guards say within a second they were in the room and they
claimed that Johnny was all the way in the kitchen 20-feet away from Amber who was sitting on the couch in the living room. They are seeming to pick
at Johnny is side in this whole thing.
They are saying that she was the one that has flown off the handle and many times in past thrown bottles at him. They are also backing what the LAPD
is saying that there were no signs of visible injury on her when they arrived and the apartment was not in disarray. But they are definitely
backing him and not her at this point.
PINSKY: So, in addition to these two security guards, the report from the LAPD does not provide any evidence that anything went down. Accurate?
HOLT: That is accurate.
PINSKY: OK.
HOLT: That is what they are saying. They are staying to that story. But I can tell you, we just posted a story minutes ago from inside of amber`s
camp, who is saying listen, there were injuries on her face when the cops showed up and number two, they were in an adjoining apartment when the cops
arrived to talk with her. She was the one trying to protect Johnny and his career by not giving it all up.
PINSKY: Dax, did you seen Doug Stanhope post? I am going to talk about it in a couple of minutes, but I am wondering if you saw that?
HOLT: No, what did it say?
PINSKY: The one where he alleges -- he knows Johnny very well and he is mad that he did not speak up sooner about the potential for trouble. My
question was going to, "Do you guys go after Stanhope at all to talk to him?
HOLT: I do not know.
PINSKY: I suggest you do. Let us put it that way, because Doug is a very outspoken guy and he has been around this and seems to have a point of view
on it. I will tell you about it in just a minute. Now, Sara, though, I want to go to you, first. Do you saw Amber on the day she filed for
divorce, two days after this alleged phone incident? Tell me what you saw.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Correct. I happen to live in the building where amber Heard was living with Johnny Depp and she currently
continues to live. And, although, I do not like to talk about my neighbors on air, I do make it the exception for justice.
In this case, you know, she has had multiple contacts with various people who work in the building face-to-face with no makeup on. I know that she
did for a fact on Monday, the day she filed for divorce and on Wednesday, five days after the incident, and two days before she sought the
restraining order. And there were no marks on her face.
I can guarantee you that, knowing Laura Wasser, Johnny Depp`s attorney, she will leave no stone unturned. She is going to come in and look through all
the witnesses, interview them, look at the surveillance cameras to look and see whether there were marks on her.
And, secondly, I have one thing to say and I think all of us have agreed on this including Lisa in the past is that, you know, post O.J. Simpson in the
`90s, LAPD takes these cases extremely seriously. The fact that a victim, quote/unquote, "Victim," does not make a statement -- does not just shut
the investigation down.
I have handled number of cases where I defended somebody, who is accused of domestic violence, where the victim has not made a statement. That is, in
fact, very common. People that are abused choose not to talk about their abuser. So, the fact that they came in and she did not speak is not why
they did not pursue this investigation.
PINSKY: All right, Lisa. Lisa, go ahead.
LISA BLOOM, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yes. Well, in fact, I do not agree with that. So it does not surprise me that people who are paid by Johnny Depp,
like his security guards or his close male friends, are going to support him. It does not surprise me that the LAPD does not pursue a case where
the victim does not want to make a statement or does not pursue it.
[19:05:00] There is a mark on her face. You just showed that photo. That has not been explained by Johnny Depp`s side. Amber Heard says that is the
mark that indicates where he threw the cell phone at her. I believe that is what she is saying. And there is that picture again.
And listen, what happens in these high profile cases, and I represent a lot of women against high profile abusers including currently is everybody
piles on, on the side of the rich and famous guy, and there is nothing in it for people to take the side of the woman who is young and powerless.
PINSKY: Well, no. Come on, Lisa. That is not fair.
AZARI: No. No. Lisa.
PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on. Speaking of piling on, Spirit, help me here. We have attorneys -- even our two attorneys are piling on both sides here.
To me -- for you and I, Spirit, we just see sadness.
This is a sad case. I feel bad for both of them. I hope it was not violence. I hope it was not a domestic violence scene, but even if it was
not, this is still a very sad story.
SPIRIT PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It is a very sad story all the way around for both of them, Dr. Drew. The interesting thing here, though, is that nobody is
talking about that this is not supposedly the first time that this has happened between the two of them. What I find interesting , though, is her
presentation.
I mean, she comes out and she looks so meek, so disoriented. She does not know which way to go. Do I turn left? Do I turn right? I almost feel
like that she is hamming it up for the cameras here, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Dax, is she hamming it up?
SPIRIT: I can say that --
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Hold on, but Dax, go ahead. But also she was married once before. Tell me about that and respond to what Spirit said.
Go ahead, Dax.
HOLT: Well, you know, hamming it up for the cameras? I mean, everyone is judging every moment that this woman is walking around now. Her walking
out the front doors, I did find a little interesting. But I think also there are victims who want to show up, "Hey, look, this should not be
happening to other people."
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLT: Exactly where did that bruise come from?
PINSKY: Right.
HOLT: Actually, people are insinuating that she gave herself a bruise on the face to make this case even crazier. But that seems -- I do not know.
PINSKY: Yes. Let us be --
AZARI: Well, let me --
PINSKY: Well, hold on, Sara. Hold on. Let us be super clear. Everyone on this panel and myself takes domestic violence as one of the most serious
issues of our time.
SPIRIT: Extremely.
PINSKY: Let us not minimize it. We are not minimizing it. And absolutely the points, everyone, Lisa, your point is completely valid, so as Sara`s,
which is that often now has people do come forward with these things.
They feel responsible for protecting the perpetrator. These are coercive relationships. It is disastrous when people are in these relationships.
The question is, is that what is going on here.
AZARI: Exactly.
PINSKY: Johnny Depp`s friend, comedian Doug Stanhope, who I mentioned a few minutes ago says Amber has manipulated Johnny since before they were
married. He says -- and Stanhope is a super glib guy. He is not one to mince words.
He is criticizing himself, really. I will tell you what he said in a second. But, he is saying, "Hey, I was one of this inside group." I am
like being -- In my mind, he was equating himself to being an insider with Prince and not saying something, or Michael Jackson and not saying
something.
And, he feels guilty and now he is speaking up. He stayed silent until now. In an editorial for the rap.com, he writes, quote, "Amber was
threatening to lie about him publicly if he did not agree to her terms. Blackmail is what I would imagine other people might put it." Now, Amber`s
lawyers have forcefully denied this. Sara, now, I will let you ring in. Go ahead.
AZARI: Well, yes. And, you know, people say, "Well, why would she make this up?" I think it is really clear. She is doing this for leverage in
the divorce because in California she is entitled to a collect spousal support for half the length of her marriage.
In this case, it is a 15-month marriage. I call it a long date. OK? So when you are talking about eight months or so, give or take of spousal
support, she is trying to stretch this and milk this as much as possible.
BLOOM: How do you know that?
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: Wait, wait. Let me finish, Lisa. Let me finish.
HOLT: Bruising --
(CROSSTALK)
AZARI: If she were -- if Johnny Depp were to be convicted of domestic violence, the court could actually prolong the period of spousal support.
PINSKY: How long?
AZARI: What more motive do you need?
PINSKY: How long?
AZARI: I think it is up to the judge`s discretion.
BLOOM: Drew.
PINSKY: Lisa?
BLOOM: Drew, you know, this is the kind of thinking that undermines domestic violence victims from coming forward. To say definitively, as
Sara just did, she is doing this to blackmail him. You do not know. None of us were there.
AZARI: Lisa, I was there.
BLOOM: All I am saying --
AZARI: I live there.
BLOOM: OK. You lived there with Amber and Johnny? Really? You were behind closed doors with them during their marriage when they have
arguments?
AZARI: No.
BLOOM: Please.
AZARI: But I have firsthand knowledge that the bruise was not there and suddenly appeared voila on Friday in time for her hearing.
BLOOM: Come on.
(CROSSTALK0
PINSKY: Now, hold on. Guys, we are going to leave it because you guys are not going to resolve this here, because none of us were there. But Dax,
there are different versions of what happened when the LAPD arrived at the scene on the day of the alleged iPhone incident. Give me the latest on
that.
HOLT: Well, like I said earlier, the LAPD is sticking to their story that when they got there, they did not see any evidence of battery on her. They
did not see the apartment in disarray. We have gone back.
We have asked them multiple times, "Are you sure you guys did not see anything." And they are sticking to that, because -- like it had been
brought up earlier. If there is a mark on her face, they should have gone out and they should have arrested him.
[19:10:05] PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
HOLT: But they did not arrest him. They just gave the phone number over and, "Hey, if you want to call the LAPD, if you want to give us your
statement, then you call us and we will go after him." But she did not.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hang on, Sara. Hold on.
HOLT: People are saying she did that on purpose to save his career and to try to keep it as private as possible. She only referred to him as her
husband, not Johnny Depp.
PINSKY: Now, my radio show, KABC here in Los Angeles, a former Los Angeles prosecutor Robin Sax, a friend of this show, she is an expert in domestic
violence. She suggested that both be submitted to a polygraph. Lisa, would that do it?
BLOOM: No. People always say that.
PINSKY: No.
BLOOM: Listen.
PINSKY: All right.
BLOOM: I practice as an attorney every day in this area. It is not admissible in court. It is easy to lie. It is easy to fake especially for
actors --
PINSKY: Easy to fake?
BLOOM: Yes, which both of these people are actors. You just calm yourself at the beginning, because it just measures your excited response to
questions.
AZARI: I do not think you can fake a polygraph.
BLOOM: Many people fake polygraphs. That is why they are not admissible in court.
PINSKY: Sociopaths can do that, right?
SPIRIT: Yes.
PINSKY: But, that is that is. Spirit, does people who have no automatic response to -- they do not have anxiety, ever.
AZARI: But it is an admissible.
SPIRIT: Exactly, because you cannot know because you are talking about things that are involuntary.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRIT: Increased heart rate, perspiration, pupil dilation. Those are things that cannot be faked.
PINSKY: They are way deep in the brain.
SPIRIT: They do not have that well of control with it. Exactly.
PINSKY: Now, Johnny Depp`s teenaged daughter took to Instagram to defend him. She says he is the sweetest loving person she knows. Her post has
gotten over 230,000 likes. Spirit, where is this all going to end? Again, I am so sad about this. This is just -- you know.
SPIRIT: You know, at the end of the day, Dr. Drew, this is only the beginning. It is just one more sad example that will be, "He said, she
said" and will go quietly into that good night after they settle outside of the courtroom and no one will ever really know what happened here except
for these two.
PINSKY: Yes. You are right.
SPIRIT: But, what we need to remember is that if you are a true domestic violence victim --
PINSKY: Speak up.
SPIRIT: -- there is help for you.
PINSKY: Yes.
SPIRITL Speak up, speak out and get help. Do not stay in the situation.
BLOOM: And if you are a batterer who we never say this part of it, get help --
SPIRIT: There are help available too.
BLOOM: Get anger management.
SPIRIT: Yes.
BLOOM: And stop battering women.
AZARI: And shame on you --
SPIRIT: Or stop battering men -- Stop battering men as well. That goes both ways.
PINSKY: Got to go.
SPIRIT: If we are going to talk about it, let us include that --
PINSKY: Yes. Got to go. We got to go. Next, who is to blame for the death of a rare gorilla? The zoo who says it had to kill him or the mother
of the boy who turned her back for a second? We are back after this.
And still to come, an actor says he only wanted to hurt his wife not kill her, so he shot her. The verdict is in for a star of "The Shield." Back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE BYSTANDER: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): A 3-year-old child has fallen into the gorilla cage and a gorilla is slamming the child into the wall and the
child is in the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THANE MAYNARD, CINCINNATI ZOO DIRECTOR: This child is being dragged around. His head was banging on concrete. This was not a gentle thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACK HANNA, COLUMBUS ZOO DIRECTOR AND HOST OF "JACK HANNA`S INTO THE WILD" SHOW: There was no other decision to make. You have human life, you have
animal life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYNARD: That child`s life was in danger. And people who question that, or are Monday morning quarterbacks or second guessers do not understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE EYEWIINESS: It was basically, the child or the gorilla? And they chose, you know, a lot of people say poorly, but they did not see
it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Zoo officials say they were forced to kill a rare gorilla after a 3-year-old boy somehow managed to slip into that animal`s enclosure. An,
tonight, critics are questioning whether the zoo did the right thing. Some are calling for the child`s parents to be arrested.
I am back with Sara, Lisa -- not a fan of zoos, and spirit. Joining us, Jessica Schneider, a CNN Correspondent who is covering the story. Jessica,
thank you for joining us. Please give us the latest.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Dr. Drew, you know, right now Cincinnati police are delving into all the details about what transpired on
Saturday. Specifically, they tell us that they are investigating the mother and the parents and the family of this 4-year-old little boy who was
stuck for 10 minutes in this tense situation, where the gorilla was violently dragging him and tossing him before zoo keepers shot and killed
that gorilla.
Now, the mother of this little boy has come under intense scrutiny on the internet. Twitter abounds with people saying she should have kept a closer
watch on her son. There is also a petition circulating with 400,000 signatures calling for an investigation into the parents of this little
boy. Right now, we do not know much about the family.
All they have done is they have released a statement. They said that their son is safe and that they thank the zoo workers for coming to the rescue of
their son. What we do know about the mother at this point, although she has not spoken and only released a statement, we do understand that she is
a day care worker right here in Cincinnati, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Jessica, thank you so much. Now, Sara, should these parents be charged with something?
AZARI: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I do not see a difference between these parents and the parents who leave their child in the car and are
prosecuted. I mean, I am sick and tired of this culture of the parents cannot do no wrong and we point the finger at the zoos and the schools and
I am with Lisa. I am anti-zoo.
But here is the deal. The woman takes a 3-year-old child to the zoo, not a park, a zoo, and she has multiple other kids with her that she is
supervising apparently. And, it is not enough to keep an eye on this kid. She has to keep her hands on this kid. If she cannot do it, she needs to
sit home and tune into national geographic.
PINSKY: All right. All right. Sara, hold on. Spirit, you agree with that? Yes or no?
SPIRIT: No, and as much as I love Sara, I mean look, that is why they call them accidents. OK? We have got to stop making parents completely just
the worst people ever because accidents happen to children. It is a bizarre thing.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting. I want to show you a woman who saw the boy jump into the enclosure. Let us listen to her. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRITTANY NICELY, EYEWITNESS OF THE ZOO INCIDENT: I was just trying to stop him from jumping. It was very clear that he wanted to get in the water.
He physically fell into the moat, but it was purposefully. She did not know that that was her child at first.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:20:07] PINSKY: But Lisa, aside from the parenting issue, I can see where someone would want to -- forget zoos good or bad. But the
possibility that somebody could fall into a cage with dangerous animal, just that possibility seemed like a liability for the zoo, no?
BLOOM: Yes, the zoo is the responsible party here. The zoo that actively encourages families with small children to come there for a fun day of
entertainment. Now, supposedly, this 15-foot moat was supposed to separate the animals and the people. In fact, both an animal and a little 4-year-
old person got into that moat. That is not a sufficient barrier to protect the children that they are soliciting to come.
PINSKY: Do they have a liability? Are they going to be in trouble?
BLOOM: Absolutely, they have a liability.
PINSKY: What is going to happen? Do the parents -- are they going to sue?
BLOOM: Well, I mean, she could, but the child is OK, thank God, at least physically. So probably, you know, this is not going to be a great
lawsuit. But listen, I want to make this point. Wild animals should not be held captive for our entertainment. That is why I do not believe in
zoos, circuses or marine parks.
It is time to get past that. We have seen these cases over and over again, where a human, either it is a child, a mentally ill person or a thrill
seeker gets into an enclosure and the animal has to be shot. It is just wrong.
PINSKY: But Lisa, I agree with you -- Have not zoos changed their philosophical orientation in recent history? Are not they conservation
organizations now?
BLOOM: Well, yes.
PINSKY: Do not they breed endangered species to support endangered species.
BLOOM: Well, that is what they say, but --
PINSKY: Well, what do you mean that is what they say?
BLOOM: Because there is a big difference between you can see the walls around this big gorilla, but it is a very small space for a wild animal
that is typically roams hundreds of miles out in the wild. It is like us living our entire lives in a bathtub. It is just cruel to these animals.
PINSKY: Well, the zoo director spoke about how dangerous that gorilla might have been. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYNARD: This is a dangerous animal. Now, I know you see photos, videos, "He does not seem dangerous." We are talking about an animal with one hand
that I have seen take a coconut and crunch it.
You cannot take a risk with a silverback gorilla. They are very big. Three times bigger than a man, six times stronger than that. This is a
dangerous animal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, let me be clear, from my perspective. I am sure -- If he can crush a coconut with his hand, that is about10 times more durable than a
human skull. That means he can do a human skull between his thumb and index finger in all probability. So this child was in imminent danger
accidentally.
And, just by the way that kid was being pulled around, he is very lucky he did not get a serious head injury. That one move the gorilla made, I
thought that is it for this kid. It is curtains. But now, Lisa, thousands of these gorillas are poached every year. Should not that where we be
putting our outrage? Is not the need for them to be contained, so they can be protected?
BLOOM: Well, I think we can have outrage in multiple directions. You know, there are giant conservation parks in Africa where the animals are
protected. That is much better than a zoo, where they are just confined in these ridiculously small habitats so that we can go and gawk at them.
It is better to go for a hike. Let your kids see animals in the wild, look at nature videos rather than taking this beautiful wild animal that should
be free and free from suffering and the emotional stress that these animals suffer in captivity.
PINSKY: All right. We have next two animal experts battle out whether or not this was a dangerous situation -- imminently dangerous situation or
not. They will battle it out in the next segment.
And later a scandal over an allegedly vicious sexual assault. It is tearing a small town apart. The accused are members of the local high
school football team. We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY STONES, HARAMBE`S TRAINER: He grew up to be a beautiful, beautiful teenage boy, who was coming into himself. And I raised two sons, and he
was no different than they were.
He was in a situation where here is this strange thing here that I do not know -- what do I do? And do I fight it? Do I love it? Do I run from it?
What do I do? And an unforeseen circumstance was born and he had to lose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the trainer who had raised Harambe, the gorilla in question here. Zoo workers say they had to shoot and kill him after that
little boy had managed to slip into the gorilla enclosure, fearing that boy`s life was in imminent danger. Tonight, there is a backlash against
the child`s mother and the zoo as well. It is all growing.
I am back with Lisa and Spirit. Joining us, Tom Stalf, President and CEO of Columbus Zoo and Aquarium. He says the zoo did precisely what they
should. And Wes Siler, nature writer for "Outside" magazine, who is not so sure. So Wes, I will ask you first. Did the zoo make the right call?
WES SILER, NATURE WRITER, OUTSIDE MAGAZINE: The gorilla`s behavior was textbook protective behavior for a gorilla. They run around with their
kids like that in the wild. The kids know to jump on the back. Any gorilla expert should know that gorilla was not acting violently towards
that child.
PINSKY: But Wes, a human child does not know to climb on the back. And also human child does not have near the strength of a gorilla -- look, that
should have been death right there for that child.
What I just saw should have been the death of that child by accident. It may have been protective behavior, but the shear strength and the wildness
of the behavior of the gorilla is so dangerous to that child.
SILER: Absolutely it is, but it does not mean that intervention has to involve death. The zoo had two very bad options to choose from:
tranquilizing, which would not have been effective immediately or killing immediately, which is obviously bad for the gorilla. It died.
Why was not there a third option? Why was not there a rescue? Why was not there a drilled trained response by the handlers who know this animal
instantly who work with it hand to hand, day to day to go in and rescue that child?
PINSKY: All right. Great question. Great question. Tom, what do you say to that?
TOM STALF, PESIDENT, COLUMBUS ZOO & AQUARIUM: Well, there was actually three things that the emergency response team could act on. One was a
signal to bring the troop in. The troop did come in except for the male. The male showed aggression.
[19:30:08] And then they had to survey their options. As you have already noted, sedation was not an option. When we talk about sedation, it takes
up to 20 minutes. In an animal that is agitated, it may not take effect at all.
When we talk about the actions of the Cincinnati Zoo, it was the right thing to do. It is not something that we ever want to do, but we are
trained to make sure that human life is our top priority.
When you look at the video and also videos that have not been seen by the general public, the child was being thrown around into the water, out of
the water. There was only one decision, unfortunately, and it took the life of the male.
PINSKY: Where are these other videos? How come we have not seen them?
STALF: Well, as you heard from the Thane Maynard, he talked about the animal going in and out of the water and throwing the child, hitting his
head. And, the emergency response team had to evaluate -- we are talking just minutes to make the decision.
If they tried to sedate the animal, after that sedation, that animal has a few minutes before the drug takes effect, and they were fearing that the
gorilla would take it out on the child.
PINSKY: I get it. Lisa.
STALF: Think about the headlines today --
PINSKY: Yes. I could imagine.
STALF: -- if they sat back and said Cincinnati zoo tried and the child is dead.
PINSKY: Not just dead but would have been torn apart in an instant. Now Lisa, this is your child in there, what are you going to do?
BLOOM: Well, I am not taking my child to the zoo.
PINSKY: Lisa, stop. Of course not. Should your child --
BLOOM: OK. And, I would also say let she, who has never had a child get away for a second cast the first stone at this mother. I am not throwing a
stone at the mother because I was not a perfect mother. And occasionally my kids would get away from me.
Yes, if it comes down to this horrible situation that was created by the zoo, because they had an ineffective barrier after inviting children and
you have to shoot the gorilla to save the child, of course that is what you have to do. But let us avoid this situation in the future.
PINSKY: Let us look at the barrier. Let us look at the barrier in front of the enclosure. There is a little sort of fence, and then a 15-foot drop
into a moat. Jessica -- I think that Jessica is still out there? She wanted to say something about -- yes, go ahead about how the child got into
that moat.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, you know, Dr. Drew, there have been a lot of blame game, right? I mean, people have been pointing the fingers to the mother. We
have not heard from her. We have heard from the zoo, however. People have been saying, "How did this kid get in there?"
Zoo officials have actually been very forthright about this. Right after this happened on Sunday, the zoo director came out and said, "We know how
the boy got around this. Our barriers are actually secure." But they said that the boy was very deft.
He went under the first barrier. That is like a railed barrier. He then went through some protective wiring. He went through bushes. He climbed
up on to the moat wall and then dropped more than ten feet down into the water below. So this was a quick little kid. He is 3 years old.
PINSKY: Motivated.
SCHNEIDER: The zoo director says, "Look, yes, you can build barriers, but you cannot always prevent people from getting around them."
PINSKY: All right. Next up, we are going to look at what that little boy felt when he was confronted by a 400-pound gorilla. Was he paralyzed with
fear or did he think there was something playful going on?
And still to come, an actor found guilty of murdering his wife. He could trade being in front of the camera for decades behind bars. Back after
this.
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[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Cell phone video shows a 400-pound gorilla dragging a 3-year-old boy around just like a rug doll. The zoo workers ended up having to kill
the primate to save the boy`s life.
Back with Lisa, Spirit, Tom and Wes. Now Spirit in the video, if you guys could put that up, you see the boy looking up at this gigantic animal there
frozen. That is terror, for what we call frozen terror, which is trauma.
SPIRIT: Absolutely. He will never forget this even though he is only 3 years old, Dr. Drew. This was, I thought that this was a good idea because
all I wanted was to jump in the moat, now I am staring in the face of something that I was not prepared for. He does not have the faculties to
be ready for situations like this yet.
PINSKY: That is right.
SPIRIT: He is 3.
PINSKY: Frozen terror. It is what humans -- what mammals do in preparation for assault. They centralize their blood flow. They flush
their brains with catecholamines and endorphins preparing for the assault.
Joining us on the phone, I have Linda Marchant. She is professor of anthropology at Miami University Oxford. She studied there apes in Africa
and her students have worked with Harambe. Linda, do you see aggressiveness when he grabbed this boy?
PROF. LINDA MARCHANT, STUDIED GREAT APES IN AFRICA: I am a behavioral primatologist, so I probably see something a bit different than the general
public does. What I see is him doing something called a splash display, where he grabs the trouser of the child, and then drags him in the water.
I think he is responding to all of the people looking into the moat and screaming and he is very, very aroused.
PINSKY: So what is to prevent him from just smacking the kid and breaking his skull in one instant out of either being playful or being agitated?
PROF. MARCHANT: I cannot answer that question since I was not there. The episode apparently went on for ten minutes. And the important thing to
remember is, given that I was not there, that the zoo had to make the most difficult decision possible and one -- and I would never second guess them,
but I know it was extremely painful for them to make the decision that they were going to shoot Harambe.
[19:40:00] PINSKY: I just --
PROF. MARCHANT: And that was really I think the kind of prevent what they were worried about. But we will never know the answer to that question,
will we?
PINSKY: Yes, unfortunately. The unfortunate thing, Lisa is when I see the so-called splash display. Any one of those moves by the gorilla could have
been the end of that child`s life. I understand that it is a display. It is not an intent to harm the child, but he could have done it. He is 400
pounds.
BLOOM: No, I agree with that. And I am not a behavioral scientist when it comes to animals, but I agree with that. That child was clearly in danger
of being dragged around.
And listen, if you were threatening a life of my child, I would shoot you. I mean, this is the way it works. So, we have to protect children, and we
have to protect them by having better barriers and hopefully not taking them to zoos, which are not the place for wild animals.
PINSKY: Wes, anything to add to this conversation, because again it is a display, but still unfortunately a situation where a human life was in
jeopardy.
SILER: The zoo`s job is to protect the animals that it takes care of. They absolutely failed this time. Their emergency response team is a hit
squad. Does not help the animals at all.
They need a third way. They need to train for these situations. They need to train for rescues. They need drill for them. They need to allow the
animal`s handlers who have an intimate relationship with that individual to try to resolve the situation peacefully first, yet that is not the answer -
-
PINSKY: Tom, what about a third way? Why not have a really carefully laid-out plan to deal with a -- you know, propel down, whatever it is, get
in there?
STALF: Well, you know, as we talked about our plans, the plans were in action, the call was made, the troop moved in, one gorilla did not go.
Things that we are talking about, we had a child in the moat splashing, people screaming. You could see that the gorilla is agitated.
PINSKY: Yes.
STALF: It is an unfortunate incident, but in the end when we look at it, we want to make sure that the child is OK. You know, one thing, while I
can, I want to make sure when we talk about why zoos matter. We have 187 million guests a year in zoos and aquariums across the United States that
are members of the association zoos and aquarium.
They contribute $160 million directly to conservation. So earlier we heard talk about that gorillas should only be out in the wild, in the
sanctuaries. Who pays for those sanctuaries? Zoos and aquariums. We give back to conservation. We focus on sustainability. We are here to inspire
people to care about wildlife in wild places.
PINSKY: We are going to have to leave it like that. We are back after this.
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[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Court documents state three Dietrich high school football players ganged up and forcibly penetrated a black and
disabled teammate with a coat hanger. Two of the alleged attackers, John R.K. Howard and Tanner Ward are being charged as adults.
Court documents alleged the victim was taunted with racial slurs by members of the football team. In one incident described in court documents, the
victim was forced to learn and recite a racist song by Howard. The third student is being charged as a juvenile. All of them are white.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The alleged victim is 18 years of age. His attorney told NBC news that he continues to struggle physically and mentally. Back with Sara,
Lisa and Spirit. On the phone, I have Alex Riggins, Criminal Justice Reporter for times-news/magicvalley.com. Now, Alex, you have been covering
this story for some time. Give us more background.
ALEX RIGGINS, CRIME REPORTER, MAGICVALLEY.COM: Right, well, this is happening in Dietrich, Idaho, which is just a tiny town. You know, you do
not get there by accident. And basically this happened in October. Details started coming out around that time.
Two young men were charged with the sexual assault by the attorney general`s office this March. And they were 17-year-old Tanner Ward and 18-
year-old John Howard. And they are accused basically of attacking this kid with a coat hanger in the locker room.
PINSKY: Alex, let me stop you. Attacking or threatening him with it or actually perpetrating it? Because if they actually did this, that is a
fatal event or at least need for imminent emergency big surgery. Did he go for surgical repair?
RIGGINS: He went into the hospital. The hospital -- the staff at the hospital were the ones who contacted the police. There were injuries, but
basically what happened was one of the players invited him in for a hug, and one of the players is alleged to have, you know, stuck the hanger in
his rectum and the other one kicked it in, you know, several times. The victim testified that he kicked it at least three, four, five times. And
the next day he went to the hospital. Once his mom found out what had happened.
PINSKY: But that -- for sure that hospital would have to report that, but if they actually succeeded in that -- Sara, people do not understand. That
is a fatal event. I mean, if you succeed in doing that, you penetrate, you actually perforate the rectum, It becomes peritonitis. People are out of
it in minutes.
AZARI: That is exactly my question. As a defense attorney, I have more questions on this than answers. But the mother made a statement to a
reporter that he is doing OK, that he is home, that everything is fine. And yet this lawsuit is worth $10 million because of very severe injuries
that I think, Dr. Drew, you know better than I, that he could have been dead, right?
PINSKY: Absolutely. Spirit, what do we do with this? These allegations are so profound. I mean, it is almost like you do not want to talk about
it till you understand what the evidence is.
[19:50:02] SPIRIT: Let me tell you, I want to talk about it, because I am outraged by this story, Dr. Drew. And as more details come out, it becomes
that much more disgusting. Not only did they say that this kid went to the hospital once.
He went to two different hospitals for repairs, Dr. Drew. And I do not understand how these kids are still able to go to school. I do not
understand how this happened in October and it is just now something to be done about it in March.
I do not understand where the coaches were and you hear about all these racial epithets and all the things happening to this kid long before this
situation happened. I do not understand where the adoptive parents were, because he was adopted when he was 4 years old by parents. I do not
understand anything about this story, about this trial.
PINSKY: Sara. Sara, quickly. Go ahead.
AZARI: Yes. And his father not only where his parents were but his father is actually a teacher at that school.
PINSKY: And, they have how many kids? How many foster kids?
AZARI: 11, I believe.
PINSKY: 11. Lisa, help us. We are all confused by this case.
BLOOM: Yes, listen.
PINSKY: This is outrageous.
BLOOM: Listen. It is about racism and it is about sexual assault, allegedly. And the Los Angeles school district has just reported paid $300
million in the last four years, because they ignored signs and that is what the lawsuits and the settlements were here in the enlightened town of Los
Angeles.
Now Idaho, I am not going to attack the whole state, but I have been there recently. I have seen a number of confederate flags flying. There are
white supremacist groups that are headquartered in Idaho. I mean, this is a place that has a problem with racial issues.
And, the lawsuit alleges that the school was made aware over and over again that he was being racially taunted, and they did nothing. And so it was
foreseeable that this would happen. And if these facts are proven, it should be a $10 million case. It should be $100 million case.
SPIRIT: Way more than that.
BLOOM: Because this is disgusting.
SPIRIT: There we go.
PINSKY: It is sort of attempted murder in a weird way. We will keep our eye on this. We, all four of us are shaking our head. It is too much to
get our head around with what we got so far. More evidence, more to be revealed.
Next, an update on a T.V. cop. He has been convicted of a real life crime, having murdered his wife. Back after that.
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[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Michael Jace is best known for his long running role on the FX police drama "The Shield." He had also portrayed a
member of the Black Panthers in the blockbuster hit "Forrest Gump." And a police officer in Russell Crowe`s 2009 film, "State of Play."
The 51-year-old actor reportedly called 911 himself to report he had shot his wife. It all happened at the couple`s Los Angeles home. April Jace
was pronounced dead at the scene. Even more disturbing, their young sons, both under 10, may have witnessed the shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have an update for you regarding the case of a T.V. cop involved in a real life crime. Michael Jace was found guilty today of
second-degree murder in the death of his wife, April. He shot and killed her in May of 2014.
"The Shield" star says he only wanted to hurt her. Huh? Jace`s lawyers argue he should be convicted of voluntary manslaughter, not murder, because
this was not premeditated. And Sara, he only wanted to hurt her with this gun.
AZARI: Yes, unfortunately, it does not matter. And the evidence, like you said, really lacks the evidence of heated passion. What the defense is
arguing or argued was that his state of mind was such that he was so upset by this divorce that he really did not reflect upon -- or form the intent
of shooting and killing his wife.
But you have to think about this. And I think the D.A. properly argued this in closing argument is that, he was holding a very heavy gun. And
each time he pulled the trigger, not once, not twice but three times, it had to have --
PINSKY: I am tiring of your defense, Sara. Because, Lisa -- no, because Lisa, he pull a gun out. We have been talking about domestic violence more
than once today. Lisa, he pulled a gun out and shot his wife. I just wanted to hurt her? I do not care what he wanted to do. It is such a
bizarre defense.
BLOOM: Right. I only wanted to seriously injure my wife when I shot her in the presence of my little boy is not a defense. It is not a defense.
It is not a good defense, ever.
PINSKY: And by the way, what if he raise his kids to raise a knife or raise whatever, just raise his voice?
BLOOM: Properly convicted. Yes, absolutely.
AZARI: Yes, I think he was, too, because I am saying there was not the heat of passion evidence that you need to get a voluntary manslaughter
verdict. And so I think second-degree murder is the absolute best he could come out with in this case. The evidence was really bad. He shot her
three times. It does not matter that he intended to just hurt her.
PINSKY: Hang on. Spirit, I want anyone who is involved in a coercive relationship to listen to Sara`s words. This is how people will talk about
you after you are dead. You know what I am saying? Get out of there.
SPIRIT: He only meant to hurt her. He pulled out a gun. He shot her three times. It should be first-degree murder. He murdered her regardless
of what the intent was.
PINSKY: But Spirit --
SPIRIT: This is crazy that we are arguing this.
PINSKY: Bear with me. But spirit, let us give that warning again, anyone involved in a coercive relationship, do not protect the perpetrator. Get
out. The number one through five goals are to get you out of there, because this is how things happen. In this case, two sons, age 8 and 5,
were witness to this shooting. Those kids will never be the same. You agree?
SPIRIT: They lost both their parents on that day, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Sara, I will give you the last word. Go ahead.
AZARI: I have something to add to that.
PINSKY: Yes.
AZARI: And another warning to those who fabricate allegations of domestic abuse, do not do it because it discredits the victims that are true victims
who are abused who need the protection of the law.
PINSKY: Agree.
BLOOM: There is nothing fabricating here. The guy is convicted.
PINSKY: Not this guy. Not this guy. I am talking about earlier in the show. Not this guy.
BLOOM: So why are we talking about fabricating even when the guy is convicted of second-degree murder for killing his wife. I mean --
AZARI: Lisa, I am not talking about this guy. I am talking about earlier in the show.
PINSKY: We are just leaving it right there.
AZARI: Right.
PINSKY: We are all in agreement about the seriousness of domestic violence and coercive and controlling relationships.
AZARI:Absolutely.
[20:00:00] PINSKY: Thank you all for watching. Thank you, panel. DVR us, so you can watch us any time. Please tell a friend about this show.
We appreciate it. Nancy Grace up next.
END
