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Dr. Drew

Prince`s Medical Exam, New Heir Comes Out For Prince, Athlete Charged In Rape Case Gets Slap On Hand

Aired June 06, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" PROGRAM: We now know that opioids were involved in Prince`s death for sure. According to the medical

examiner, it was an overdose of "self administered Fentanyl".

REPORTER: We will not get anything else from the medical examiner`s office. The laws are very strict they can release this report. It is only

a page, the manner of death was accident.

PINKSKY: I still believe there`s gotta be benzodine obtaining in this situation. It`s really hard to die of a Fentanyl overdose, unless you`re

slamming them, unless you`re shooting it. Tonight still more questions than answers about the full picture of Prince`s death. Why are they not

giving us that complete picture? And what can we figure out are they not telling us? The whole thing just doesn`t add up to me.

Joining me, Lisa Bloom, Family Law Attorney at the Bloom Firm, Legal Analyst for Abo.com, Dr. William Maroni, Medical Examiner and Forensic

Toxicologist, and Sara Sidner, CNN Correspondent. Sarah, last week we briefly discussed the coroner`s finding of a scar on Prince`s hip but we

really don`t more than that at this point.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: No, there`s been a lot of reporting and I know Drew you`ve seen this as well. And it`s all over the place,

some people say he had hip surgery and he was suffering from pain from the hip surgery because he continued to perform. Other people said no, he

didn`t have hip surgery and that`s why he was in so much pain. So there is a lot of rumor and conjecture when it comes to Prince. But we do no know,

there was a scar on his left hip and that is stated very plainly in black and white on that medical examiners report.

And we also know the cause and manner of death, and those are the only two things the law in Minnesota allows the medical examiner to put out there.

I don`t know what else, we all want to know more. Everyone wants to know more about this. What other things may have been in his system? But this

is what we`re going to get from the medical examiner.

PINSKY: Let`s look at that medical examiner`s report a little more closely. Nothing about that reason, as Sarah`s told us, for the scar on

the hip. The only cause of death Fentanyl toxicity, again that toxicity is an important word. Not applicable is entered in the additional spaces as

cause of death. Other significant conditions also not applicable, nothing about other drugs possibly in his system. Again, we don`t get a complete

toxicology, all we get that there`s toxic levels of Fentanyl.

Dr. Maroni, help us sort of navigate through this. What else didn`t they say? And what do we make of that?

DR. WILLIAM MARONI, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC TOXICOLOGIST: Alright, there was some rumors that, number one he had some kind of pneumonia.

Number two, he may have had some infectious disease, because these are not listed, those don`t matter. You know, if he had HIV or hepatitis C, none

of that`s contributing and it`s not there. It`s not important because it`s not there.

PINSKY: Let me stop you. Does that mean he did not have those things? Because they would be contributing if he just had them even as chronic

conditions.

MARONI: No, and it`s because they were not evident as chronic conditions.

PINSKY: Right, not there.

MARONI: Important for a health department to record somebody who had a pneumonia with hepatitis C or HIV and it`s not there.

PINSKY: Right.

MARONI: But the other thing that`s really important is, when it talks about Fentanyl toxicity, it doesn`t tell you whether the Fentanyl was

pharmaceutical grade and a Fentanyl product or whether it was street Fentanyl and what we would know, that if he died, if he shot Fentanyl, the

difference between Fentanyl and heroine is. With heroine you could die, 30,40 minutes and hour and a half later the overdose.

With Fentanyl, you die in three minutes. So if he got an injection, he would be full of parent compound and no metabolites and that`s going to be

in the official report that`s not released.

PINSKY: Oh, I see. So we`re never going to hear that. Lisa, let me ask you this. Will those data, all that information we were just hearing about

be given to law enforcement, and if so could there be charges?

LISA BLOOM, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY AT THE BLOOM FIRM AND LEGAL ANALYST FOR ABO.COM: Well charges against whom? Whoever gave him these medications?

You know, this strikes me as preferential treatment for a celebrity protecting his privacy, which frankly I think everyone`s privacy should be

protected or no one`s. But we shouldn`t have preferential treatment.

There`s more questions really raised than answered by this report as far as I see it.

PINSKY: Sarah, is this preferential treatment or is this just how it works in Minnesota? This is a lock down medical record even if there`s a

criminal investigation.

SIDNER: Yes, this is really how everyone is treated. And I did go back and try to look to see some other reports coming out of that medical

examiner`s office. And they treat everyone the same, cause and manner of death, and that`s just about it. I mean, you see scars and invitation

that`s listed there so they have to put that down. But for the most part, you know, regular folks, this is all you`re going to get for them as well.

And again, in Minnesota, the laws very, very strict as to what they can release and what they cannot release. And I think in this case, in

particular, because the whole world is watching, they`re being extremely careful. But I don`t think it`s any different than what they would release

for someone like you or I.

PINSKY: But Dr. Maroni, if there was some sort of criminal investigation, wouldn`t they at least allow law enforcement to look at some of the data,

the specifically relevant data?

MARONI: Sure and the chief medical examiner have a relationship that in court, they`ll share anything and there doesn`t need to be a subpoena and

that`s how those investigations are done. But outside a criminal investigation, that information is usually not passed on to the sheriff,

unless it`s important.

And if he took some kind of knock off, Chinese, illegal Fentanyl, his body would also have some of the chemicals used to synthesize Fentanyl. If he

took a synthetic grade Fentanyl from a product but misused the product, that chemistry is going to be missing.

PINSKY: Right, and I think, I agree with you. That`s why I don`t understand why the law enforcement wasn`t want that information. They keep

looking around for a prescription, shouldn`t they first establish that he was taking prescription Fentanyl. So I don`t know, let me tell you about

Andrew Cornfield, he is the guy who called 911 when he found Prince`s body. He then wrote an op ad for CNN.com. His father, of course, the addiction

specialist who was called in by Prince`s people, did not get there in time. Andrew is not a medical doctor.

Here`s what he wrote: What happened has made me think about what steps we must take to prevent such entirely unnecessary loss of life. What if my

father had been able to reach Prince just a week earlier. Like so many others, we have helped take back their lives. Prince could have been here

standing on the beach beside me. Sarah, did Andrew write this piece to try to keep himself out of more trouble?

SIDNER: No, I think any attorney would probably tell you not to speak more, just speak less. So it`s interesting that he wanted to pen this

opinion piece. We had talked back and forth via email and I asked him if he had anything to say, initially about just being there and what that was

like. And then of course, after his attorney spoke and said he was on a life saving mission and there are a lot of other things that came to light,

that he had buprenorphine in his back pack. There were a lot of questions so of course again we asked, will you please speak to us about this.

He said look, not right now, but I do think that this is such an important issue. I would like to talk about this on my terms in an opinion style

piece and that is indeed what he did. And he talked about how devastating it was for him. But he never talked about some of the other issues that of

course, law enforcement`s going to be looking into.

PINSKY: Right. Humbly, I appreciate this young man`s in a bad position. I appreciate his desire to do good. He had no business being in a position

to render an opinion about medicine is practiced or what should have been done for this piece. The fact that his father put him in that position,

egregious, I`m sorry. Next up, a new alleged heir surfaces and says she and Prince were both fathered by Paul Leonard Newman. OK. If you say so,

and later a college athlete raped an unconscious woman behind a dumpster, now the judge in that case is being trashed, I will tell you why.

(VOICE OVER): Hundreds of people have come forward now trying to claim they`re somehow related to Prince. There`s one individual that claims he

is Prince`s biological son. He`s an aspiring rapper so called with a rap sheet is wrong and really problematic. Harlen Williams, that`s this guy,

he`s 39 years old, he`s in a federal prison on a firearms charge. He`s due to get out in 2020. The rap sheet dates back to 2002, it includes

trafficking crack, holding his then girlfriend captive, threatening to kill her, attacking a woman, oh great, with a hot curling iron, auto theft,

resisting arrest, probation violation, we`ve got to throw that in for good measure.

PINSKY: Breaking news on the Prince inheritance front. Two new people have come forward claiming to be his rightful heirs, plus remember the

convict Carlin Q. Williams, he has not given up. Back with Lisa, Dr. Maroni and Sarah. Sarah let`s start with the first of these two new

possible or so called heirs. Tells us about Regina L. Jenson-Sorenson.

SIDNER: There`s a lot of claims in there and when you read between the lines you start seeing things that seem very outlandish and outrageous

frankly. She says that she is Prince`s half sibling. That she and Prince were moved at some by CPS from his home. We do know there was a troubled

life that Prince had very early on in life.

But then she starts talking about who Prince`s actual father is and she claims that their father, hers and his, was Paul Leonard Newman, sound

familiar? Yes, that same person.

PINSKY: Paul Newman? The actor. Oh, fantastic.

SIDNER: Yes. So she also puts in there some very personal things about Prince saying that he had epilepsy, she talks about herself quite a bit

saying she was beat up by step brothers and half brothers and she had to leave the house.

PINSKY: I can`t take it.

SIDNER: I`m sorry, I know.

PINSKY: How about Norman Yates Carthins? How about his filings?

SIDNER: So Norman is the second person to come forward to say that he is Prince`s son, though this time, for the very first time, he`s come forward

and said, he is Prince`s adopted son and he says this, I am his adopted son and I know that there is a will and I know this because my dad left $7

million to me. Where is this will? No one`s been able to find it number one. Number two, a lot of people are coming forward Dr. Drew, you know

this.

We`re talking about millions and millions of dollars, potentially hundreds of millions of dollars. And all of a sudden a lot of people are saying,

hey I need to file really soon on June 10th a lot of the folks that have already filed, the court has said you need to file proof with the court.

And so I think that`s why you`re seeing more and more and more of these. But I do not think this will be the last one Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Regina was also one of the two that we were just talking about. Sarah correct me if I read this properly. She was in many `60s and `70s

sitcoms, she was a television star. I missed her somewhere. I don`t know.

SIDNER: Yes, like I said it`s a little, you gotta wonder. She also said she was fostered by Joan Crawford, that`s the one that stuck in my head, I

was like.

PINSKY: Yes. That`s good. Fantastic.

SIDNER: It doesn`t sound right. Who knows?

PINSKY: To straighten this out, on the phone, I have Andrew Stallman (ph) attorney for Prince`s possible blood relatives. Andrew, thoughts on these

two?

ANDREW STALLMAN (PH) ATTORNEY FOR PRINCE`S POSSIBLE BLOOD RELATIVES: A lot of crazy people are coming forward and I don`t like using that term, but

let`s just say some interesting characters are coming forward claiming to be heirs. And we`ll let the judge decide who is or isn`t an heir, but it`s

just fascinating to me.

PINSKY: And how about the two that you represent? What`s evolving there?

(STALLMAN): Nothing much. We have the court hearing coming up in late June and the number of the issues and motions that we teed up will be

addressed. So we`re in a little bit of a holding pattern right now.

PINSKY: And Sarah, can you give me the latest on the convict, Carlin Q. Williams?

SIDNER: His attorney and he himself have said they don`t like the idea that the Trust that is the special administrator is going forward with

trying to get an entertainment specialist in to monetize everything, to look at all the potential assets.

I mean, we`re talking about a huge amount of assets, all over the country and certainly all over the world even. And so, remember Trust has said we

need some help with this and Carlin Q. Williams has said, hold on a second, I don`t want you guys to go ahead and monetize this, I don`t agree with

bringing in a specialist unless I have something to say about it. And the other heirs have something to say about it.

So he`s trying to stop that so guess what? Tomorrow this was a very last minute thing, tomorrow they`re going to decide that. They`re going to

figure it out with a phone call. They`re doing a conference call where he and I am assuming his attorney, because he is in prison as you have

mentioned, will try to hash this out with Bremer Trust. And there is a timing issue here and so the Trust has said, hey can we push this forward.

So that`s what happening tomorrow, there is going to be a conference call about this as to whether or not they can bring in a special agent to try to

figure out just how big, how vast Prince`s estate actually is. PINSKY: And Andrew you have an opinion on this gentleman`s objection to

the monetization expert.

(STALLMAN): Yes, I mean, look I think a monetization expert is needed, it`s necessary. I mean, Prince has a very large estate, there are

contracts that have come due, simply pressing business issues that have to be addressed. So we`re not joining in the motion. We don`t think it`s

premature. We think this monetization expert is desperately needed.

PINSKY: What does that mean a monetization expert? What exactly is that?

(STALLMAN): Two things, number one, an individual to preserve the assets of the estate and number two to potentially look at potential business

opportunities. A way to monetize or turn into money, certain opportunities that Prince`s estate has, so that`s going to be his job and it`s very

important. It happened with Elvis Presley, it happened with Tupac, and pretty common to have this done.

PINSKY: And Sarah you have a question for Andrew?

SIDNER: I do. Hi Andrew, we`ve talked a little bit on email. I do want to ask you and I don`t know if you can answer this but has the vaults been

open? I mean, there`s a lot of people going wouldn`t the will be in the vault that we know now is in his house. That everyone, even his siblings

have talked about. Do you know if the vault`s been opened?

(STALLMAN): I`d love to comment on that. I just can`t, I`m sorry.

PINSKY: Woo, that`s fascinating. Good question.

SIDNER: I couldn`t help myself.

PINSKY: Al right. Everyone remember the outrage when the Minnesota Governor proclaimed April 21st Prince died on that day they declared it

Beyonce day. Well critics will hopefully be relieved to hear that he has just Tuesday, June 7th that is Prince`s birthday, Prince Day. So things

are relieved everybody. Next up, we have a terrible story of a college athlete who rapes an unconscious woman, gets just six months in jail. The

judges sympathetic words as perhaps as outrageous as the sentence that is next. And later, tough talk from the woman who shot this video of gorilla

boy, she says everyone has it wrong. I`ll tell you what she means after this.

(VOICE OVER): Two Stanford grad students were biking across campus and spotted a freshmen thrusting himself on an unconscious, half naked women

behind a dumpster at a party. They tackled Brock Turner until the police arrived. In March this year, a jury in California found Brock Turner

guilty. The former Stanford University swimmer, named Brock Turner, 20 years old. He was sentenced on Thursday to just six months in the county

jail and three years probation for three counts of sexual assault.

PINSKY: Six months behind bars for the rape of an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. The judge said a heavier sentence would have " severe impact

on Brock Turner." What about the impact on the victim? She put out a 13 page letter to her rapist that has now gone viral. Here is Ashley Banfield

again, reading from that letter.

BANFIELD: I don`t want my body anymore. I was terrified of it. I didn`t know what had been in it. If it had been contaminated, who had touched it

and I came across an article. In it, I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious with my hair disheveled, long necklace

wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist. That I was buck naked all the

way down to my boots, legs spread apart and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize.

PINSKY: I`m back with Lisa, joining us Spirit psychotherapist, Bradford Cohen, criminal defense attorney, Pat LaLama, Managing Editor Crime Watch

Daily from their new room. Lisa, I`m just going to cut you lose on this one.

BLOOM: Well if you were African American, imagine if you didn`t have a wealthy family, imagine if you weren`t a Stanford student that`s number

one. Number two, imagine if we didn`t live in a rape culture where overall the sentence for a convicted forcible rape is only about 2, 21/2 years.

He`s not going to prison at all, not one day in prison.

He`s getting six months in jail for raping a girl, and a rape that was so appalling that two of his fellow students had to pull him off of her. And

by the way, thank God for those bystanders, those two people are heroes. But this is disgusting, nobody should be making apologies for this young

man. He should be getting, I would say at least five to 10 years for what he did.

PINSKY: It could have been up to 14 years. He could have been locked up that long. The prosecutor asked for six plus probation. Bradford, what

was the judge thinking here? He`s certainly been excoriated in social media.

BRADFORD COHEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t like to put myself in the judge`s shoes, because I don`t know all the facts and circumstances.

We know what we read. We know what we`ve heard on TV and what we`ve read in the newspapers. But we weren`t actually there in the courtroom. We

don`t know what evidence was presented, how they testified, what they testified about? Certainly there was other incidents in terms of things

that the court would consider, that he is a young man. He is bright. He has all these opportunities in life and this was something that was just a

horrible, horrible thing that happened. And it goes to really examine the college culture of this, everyone`s getting drunk on the weekend.

PINSKY: Yes.

COHEN: I don`t want to blame it on that, but certainly you could see on both parties why alcohol plays such a huge role in this. And now two lives

are really ruined. And I understand where Lisa`s coming from, because it is a horrible situation. But we weren`t sitting in that courtroom, I don`t

like to put myself in judge`s shoes. Hey this is what is appropriate - -

PINSKY: Lisa, hold on. Pat go ahead.

PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR OF CRIME WATCH DAILY: Well here`s the thing, OK, you want to argue that we were both drunk whatever. I`m talking about

what kind of message their sending now, in the aftermath, of this, this young man has taken absolutely no responsibility, talking about how, well

maybe I could be the poster child for why we shouldn`t drink on campus. There`s no apology. He even, one of the things that the victim said in the

letter that really, really struck me was she said, he gets to write the script. She doesn`t get to write any script and then on top of it his own

father saying, hey this is a severe punishment for 20 seconds of action.

That just shows you, the kind of attitude that still permeates in our society today that nobody understands the wrongness of this even after

they`re no longer drunk.

PINSKY: It`s interesting to me Spirit, the awareness of the rape culture is so acute on the colleges on the east coast. My kids were on the east

during their college careers. One of my sons said he was actually afraid to speak to a woman for fear of triggering some unintended interaction.

You know because they`re so acutely aware of this. It`s maybe gone a little too far. I`m surprised a place like Stanford is not all over this.

SPIRIT, PYSCHOTHERAPIST: Well you know let me say this Dr. Drew, the reason why it`s not is for the exact reason that your male guest just gave

on the air. And you know with all due respect, I hear his opinion, but I don`t give two damns that the type of information that he just did.

Because what he did was say, it`s inexcusable but then try to excuse the behavior. And that`s the same thing that the father did here, that`s the

same thing that the judge did here.

And until men, get in on this conversation and say flat out, I don`t care what happened here, it is inexcusable, it is absolutely intolerable. Until

men get in on this conversation, this is going to continue to happen. This is going to continue to make women feel victimized by stepping forward, to

continue to victimized by simply saying, I have no ownership over my own body.

PINSKY: Let`s go to what the father said. He writes, "I was always excited to buy him a big rib eye steak to grill, now he barely consumes and

food and only eats to exist. These verdicts have broken and shattered him and our family in so many ways. His life will never be the one that he had

dreamed about and worked so hard to achieve. Steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life." To weird Lisa, that

somebody will go, are going to judge somebody on 20 minutes. Murders are judged on a couple of minutes. Right?

BLOOM: Well we see where this young man gets it, if his father thinks a rape, that his son has been convicted for is action, which is how we refer

to consensual sex. And boy, I really take issue with the idea that, well he was young, most rapists are young, most are between 15 and 25. They

don`t get this much of a break, or that he was bright.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Bradford, go ahead.

COHEN: Let me interject for a moment. Because I wasn`t excusing his behavior, you guys are getting it all wrong. I didn`t say yes, she should

have got it or anything like that. I wasn`t excusing his behavior. We weren`t in that courtroom, we didn`t listen to the evidence. We don`t know

what that judge made in the terms of his decision, why he made all those decisions. The father`s words and let me finishing what I`m saying for a

moment. Let me just finish. What the father said in his words were not appropriate, I agree with that 100 percent. What he was trying to relay

and not very well was that he loves his son, his son made a huge mistake. It shouldn`t have been done et cetera, et cetera. How he said it was

moronic.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Got to go break. Got to go, I`m sorry. I`ve got to go to break. But I will back Bradford up on this one thing. Every unwanted health

outcome on a college campus you find alcohol, whether it`s an accident, an STD, a pregnancy, a rape, whatever always alcohol. When are college

campuses going to catch up with that? Next, I will speak to a woman who knows the 24 rape survivor. And later she`s accused of killing her fiance

on a kayak trip, but did today`s courtroom testimony capsize the defense, I have details. Be right back.

BANFIELD: It is a rape victims letter to her attacker. I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable. Physically unable

to fend for myself and he chose me. Sometimes I think if I hadn`t gone then this would have never happened, but then I realized it would have

happened, just to somebody else. He didn`t claim to hear me speak one full sentence that night . Future reference, if you are confused about whether a

girl can consent, see if she can speak an entire sentence. If she can`t do that, then no, don`t touch her.

PINSKY: Those are the profound words of a woman who had been raped while she was unconscious while she was at a college party. She faced her

attacker in court and read him the letter that has now gone viral. Ashleigh Banfield there again, reading more from that letter, here we go.

BANFIELD: According to him the only reason we were on the ground because I fell. No, if a girl falls, help her get back up. If she`s too drunk to

even walk and falls, do not mount her, hump her, take off her underwear. You`re attorney has repeatedly pointed out, well we don`t exactly know when

she became unconscious. Two guys on bikes noticed that I wasn`t moving in the dark and had to tackle you.

How did you not notice when you were on top of me? You said, being drunk I just couldn`t make the best decisions and neither could she. Having too

much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit to, but it is not criminal. We were both drunk, the difference is that I did not take off

you pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately and run away, that`s the difference.

PINSKY: Back with Lisa, Spirit, Bradford and Pat. On the phone, I have Amy Ziering, producer of the Hunting Ground, a film about sexual assault on

college campuses. She has interviewed hundreds of sexual assault survivors including the victim in this case. Amy, what is her reaction to the fact

that her letter has had such an impact?

AMY ZIERING, PRODUCER OF THE HUNTING GROUND: Oh, she`s, you know, she`s completely overjoyed obviously. I mean, she feels, at least the public is

hearing her voice even if the judge didn`t. You know, she appreciates the support she`s getting and the outrage it has rightfully unleashed.

PINSKY: Now you were studying this on all the college campuses. What did you learn, what does Stanford need to do?

ZIERING: Well first of all, I just want to say I implore everyone listening to actually go and read the letter itself. It`s on Buzzfeed.

It`s the number one trending on Buzzfeed right now and I loved that you read excerpts from Ashleigh Banfield but even excerpts don`t do it justice.

It is literally one of the most devastating and important explanation of what a rape survivor goes through and not only the brutality of the crime

but also the double rape and the aftermath. You know, the betrayal by authorities and the lack of justice that one receives. That`s the first

thing I want to say. And the second, I want to say, that it is very exemplary, yes, I`ve done over 170 interviews now with survivors of assault

both in the military and on campuses.

What she said is pretty much textbook. And it`s textbook for the victim blaming that goes on. It`s textbook for the way in which all these drapes

(ph) around this crime as is what you saw in the dad`s letter. Even I must say, I`m sorry to say it Dr. Drew, when you came in with that alcohol

thing, please re-read her letter. I mean, alcohol.

PINSKY: No, no. It`s a separate issue. It`s a separate issue entirely.

ZIERING: I know, that`s where the rape is. Alcohol is a weapon. It is used - -

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But listen, Amy, they`re both under 21, which is illegal what they`re both doing on college campuses should contain that.

ZIERING: All I want to say, if I`m walking down the street and I`m under 21 and I`ve been drinking and I`m hit by a drunk driver. You would not say

there`s a problem with alcohol.

PINSKY: I`d say every time there`s a drunk driver - -

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: There`s a huge problem with alcohol on college campuses, I`m sorry. That`s a separate problem from rape. Totally separate. That`s all

I was saying. They have rape and they have alcohol. That`s all I`m saying. Let`s not address these problems because we`re trying to be super

super sensitive here. I get it. This is an outrageous thing on college campuses. That there are victims of rape in a rape culture and Spirit, you

were actually talking all through the commercial you didn`t stop. What did you want to say there?

SPIRIT: I`m sorry because it`s driving me crazy and to Amy`s point the problem is Dr. Drew, is that when we put too many issues together it tends

to minimize for a victim what the real issue is here. And what needs to happen is, unequivavicly we need to say what he did was wrong. We don`t

need to bring the issue, and I understand, no. Bradford did. Bradford, this is a really sad thing what happens when alcohol comes into play,

that`s what the father said here - -

PINSKY: Pat LaLama? Pat LaLama go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: One little cabiot about the alcohol issue is that he knew enough to run away or try to run away when the guys stopped him. He tried to run

away. There`s some consciousness of guilt if you ask me. But one thing I want to say, somebody asked this young man where he hoped to be in 10

years, and he said he hoped to be a surgeon at a hospital. Well I`m wondering with that convicted sex offender record for the rest of his life

is going to impact, maybe that`s when we will get the justice that somehow there will be consequences that he will have pay.

PINSKY: His life projection is totally different. Bradford, what do you want to clarify here?

COHEN: I just wanted to clarify that everyone`s giving their point. The same thing you said Dr. Drew, I`m not making an excuse that the alcohol is

somehow an excuse for his behavior. What I`m saying is alcohol is rampant on college campuses, it leads to a lot of problems. It`s not an excuse for

his behavior. It is that you have to look at everything. You don`t have to look at one issue, this is a wide global issue. It is an issue the

colleges need to look at, that they need to do something about because you could just put a band aid over it and say listen, don`t do this when this

happens. Or you can really address the issues of drug use, of alcohol use on campus and start quelling what`s going on.

PINSKY: Lisa.

BLOOM: But the man chose to mount an unconscious young woman, put his penis inside of her and rape her. That is the issue.

PINSKY: Apparently he did not do that. Apparently he did not do that.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Lisa, they sound like excuses?

BLOOM: Yes it does sound like excuses. I agree there`s too much drinking on college campuses.

PINSKY: Period. OK. That`s it. That`s it. No that`s it that`s one point now let`s talk about rape. Forget the alcohol and let`s talk about

rape. Stop it. Two issues. Stop it.

SPIRIT: I heard you, I just minimized your point in the same way that you minimized hers. Period.

PINSKY: Pat your hands are up.

LALAMA: I just want to say, let`s get back to the issue of a, to me the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree, I`m not accusing his father of rape.

But the fact that he could call this action. Why isn`t anybody more upset that the fact the father refers to this as action?

PINSKY: It`s unbelievable. It`s unbelievable. And then his atonement without apologizing, taking accountability for the rape and then he wants

to go out and talk about it. That`s maybe where you guys are so offended, because this kid wants to go out and talk about alcohol on college

campuses. This is not the kid to do that at all. I don`t think this kid should be doing any of these sorts of things. But the fact is, as I said,

in the west, there doesn`t seem to be the same sensitivity to the rape culture as there is in the east. Lisa you have kids that are in the east,

you know what I`m talking about?

BLOOM: I do know what you`re talking about. But, the sensitivity is because a lot of young feminists and rape survivors have said, rape is

widespread. So I don`t think anywhere near enough sensitivity. The issue isn`t so much how we talk about it, the issue is preventing it from

happening and the epidemic levels that it`s currently happening. And when it does happen and somebody is actually prosecuted and actually convicted

as in this case, which is extremely rare, giving him an appropriate sentence, not just a slap on the wrist that he got.

PINSKY: Next up, I have an alleged kayak killer back in court. She says she did not kill her fiance but today`s testimony might have sunk her

defense. Later the eyewitness who shot this gorilla boy video is here with a stern message for everyone. Stay with us.

(VOICEOVER): The 35 year old plead not guilty to second degree murder and manslaughter in the death of her fiance, Vincent Viafore. Police say

Graswald called 911 telling officers Viafore`s kayak capsized. She tried to save him but fell into the water as well.

GRASWALD: I saw him struggling a little bit, he was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves.

(VOICEOVER): Investigators say Graswald admitted to them that she tampered with Viafore`s kayak so he`d capsize. The indictment alleges that Viafore

reached for his paddle to save his own life, Graswald pulled it away. This interrogation tape obtained by ABC`s 20/20 shows Graswald doing yoga, near

the end she makes a startling statement.

(VOICEOVER): Angelika, what is the true answer to that question?

GRASWALD: I want to confess now that he`s gone.

PINSKY: Angelika Graswald in court today charged with having killed her fiance by tampering with the kayak he was paddling, causing him to drown.

Lisa, Spirit, Bradford and Pat. Pat give us an update. What went on in court today?

LALAMA: Here`s what`s important and the lawyers will be able to flush all this out. What`s important that, that defense team clearly does not that

want that 11 hour interrogation tape to be heard. They`re claiming that the grand jury never got to hear it, there`s all kinds of parts that are

inaudible. But the problem is on that tape is where she makes that seemingly damning statement. Also keep in mind, when the detective asked

her, how did you feel when you fiance was dead? He asked her the question, doesn`t even get the statement out and says euphoric, I was euphoric.

And she talks about well parts of me are angels and parts of me are demons, and you don`t want to see the demons. So somehow that defense attorney has

got, the defense team has to prove to the judge and it`s the prosecution`s burden which is my understanding, there wasn`t basically a gun to her head.

Everything that she said was voluntary and that`s going to be the issue.

PINSKY: Looking at some tape here, it looks very Jodi Arias esc. Let me show you another part of the interrogation where it describes on how her

fiance was struggling in the water, this from ABC`s 20/20.

(VOICEOVER): When you watched him in the water did a part of you were saying my worries are going away now? And I`m free. (inaudible)

GRASWALD: Euphoric.

(VOICEOVER): Euphoric that he was going to be gone.

GRASWALD: (inaudible)

(VOICEOVER): You felt that way?

GRASWALD: Yes.

PINSKY: Bradford, that`s the tape that Pat was talking about, pretty damning.

COHEN: Yes, the tape is horrible but you know what, 11 hours of interrogation a lot of people say a lot of things and that`s why a lot of

confessions are thrown out, that`s why a lot of confessions, false confessions are made. That`s why a lot of people who are in prison right

now, when they go back and they take a look at how confessions are extracted from individuals. They figure out it was done improperly. In

fact, I had a client who was chained to a chair for six hours while police around him were saying how guilty he is and he finally starts talking about

something idiotic and gives an admission. Of course, the admission ended up being thrown out but in this case, that`s what these individuals have to

do, that`s what these lawyers have to do, is say 11 hours is so outrageous, 11 hours is so long. And how much food she had? How much water she had?

How much sleep they gave her? Things like that and take a look at the confession itself and see if it`s a valid confession.

PINSKY: Investigators say they found her diary where she describes her fiance wanting rough sex, pressuring her to take part in threesomes.

Here`s what she said in the interrogation tape.

(VOICEOVER): He always wanted sex

GRASWALD: Yes. He wanted foreign entities and I was just not ready.

PINSKY: Another, Lisa, another sort of version of the sort of rape culture we`re in.

BLOOM: Yes, but I see a lot of differences between Jodi Arias and this case. This young woman never laid a hand on the guy. She`s accused of

killing him how, by pulling the plug on his kayak. I mean, I am an experienced kayaker, if my kayak filled up with water, I would jump out and

swim to shore.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: It`s not that far to shore.

COHEN: I love how Lisa is defending this lady. Can I just say I love that Lisa is defending this lady.

BLOOM: I`m saying we don`t have enough evidence to convict her, because there`s no murder weapon.

COHEN: If this was a dude you`d say I can`t believe he unplugged it. I can`t believe he took away - -

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: You`re bringing gender into this not me. I`m saying, you really are going to try to kill somebody just by pulling the plug on a kayak.

That`s just the craziest - -

COHEN: Oh I think it`s idiotic.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Spirit let`s look at the, let`s think about those tapes again. There is a bizarre quality to her and those

investigational tapes right? This business of angel and the devil, something`s wrong.

SPIRIT: Clearly Dr. Drew. There are some mental health issues here. But I`m thinking to myself as well is there something that I`m missing.

Because even in the clips that you played I never heard her say yes I did anything to him. Only that she felt relief by him being gone. And so to

me, if there are some sexual abuse issues that are happening because let`s remember it is possible for an individual to rape their partner, non

consensual sex with a partner.

PINSKY: Yes.

SPIRIT: So if she saw him in distress, she might have been thinking all of my problems are not going away. So we - -

PINSKY: We`ve got to switch gears everybody. I`ve gotta go to break. Pat, interesting story for you guys on Crime Watch tomorrow.

LALAMA: Very quickly, a promising Connecticut attorney, was it suicide, was it murder, is it a cover up stay tuned.

PINSKY: Back after this. Breaking news that has divided the country. The mother of the boy who fell into the gorilla exhibit will not face criminal

charges. And the woman who shot this infamous video, Kimberly O`Conner is here with us. Kimberly, the county prosecutor said today this mom was not

negligent. You were there, do you agree?

O`CONNER: I agree. I do. I think it was a horrible accident. I think it was a tragedy for the gorilla but for everybody else it`s something that

just happened.

PINSKY: My understanding, you feel the gorilla really got agitated because of the crowd that formed and all the agitation of the crowd.

O`CONNER: I do. I think that at one point, as the volume of the crowd would go up initially I tried to calm them down, get them to stop

screaming, get the children out, but people came running into the exhibit and with each passing minute at first the crowd grew larger and it became

more and more difficult to control.

PINSKY: How aggressive did the gorilla actually get with the child?

O`CONNER: By the time he was at the top part of the exhibit, which is probably the largest part of the crowd and the noise. He was moving him

around real abruptly, scraping him like he was just kind of an annoyance or a toy. And when he would stop and hit him, he`d hit him hard. And then he

would just look at us, like look at the group. And just stare us down, it was a really frightening look.

PINSKY: And how were you feeling after having watched, you must have some stress reaction to this?

O`CONNER: Initially, I was frozen. I left the zoo, not even thinking about what I saw. I couldn`t think about what I saw. Each day that it

went by, and I had to talk about it, think about it, it was hard to really forget it but each, now I just try to separate myself from it. I had to

watch my grandkids, one is almost three, that was a little hard. I kept thinking, I kept seeing the boy in my head.

PINSKY: I`ve got to interrupt you. I hope you do talk to somebody about that, because acute stress reactions can go to chronic reactions if you

don`t have somebody to work with you on that. Please DVR this show, tell a friend, thank you for watching we`ll see you next time. Nancy Grace up

next.

END