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Dr. Drew

The Stanford Rape Controversy; Judge Under Fire for Lenient Jail Term for Rapist. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired June 07, 2016 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[19:00:11] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Two Stanford grad students were biking across campus and spotted a freshman thrusting himself on an

unconscious half-naked woman behind a dumpster at a party. They tackled Brock Turner until the police arrived. I came across an article.

In it, "I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious with my hair dishevelled, long necklace wrapped around my neck,

bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders, and pulled up above my waist, that I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs

spread apart, and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize."

Your attorney has repeatedly pointed out, "Well, we don`t exactly know when she became unconscious." "Two guys on bikes noticed that I wasn`t moving

in the dark, and had to tackle you. How did you not notice while you were on top of me?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:01:13] DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the controversial case of the Stanford student convicted of rape, but

sentenced to only six months in jail. Apparently, that`s a little too long for him, because he is appealing. Joining me, Lisa Bloom, family law

attorney at The Bloom Firm, legal analyst for avvo.com. Bradford Cohen, criminal defense attorney and spirit psychotherapist. We also here with us

today, have a live audience of college students weighing in on what it is like to live in the hook-up culture on college campuses today. Now, the

judge said a heavier sentence would have "a severe impact on Brock Turner." Lisa, my question to you. Isn`t that the point of punishment, to have a

severe impact? Is that the idea?

[19:01:54] LISA BLOOM, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It absolutely is. And listen, it`s customary in criminal cases for the defendant`s family and friends to

write letters and support and ask for leniency. But it does tend to favor people of means who have more people that they can draw upon in the

community, you know, closer family ties. And really, should any of that matter? What should matter is what he did, the choices that he made to

rape an unconscious woman. He was caught in the act. He has not been repentant, and I think all of that should`ve weighed in the favor of a much

harsher sentence.

PINSKY: That, and then the dad. Some of the statements the dad made about, "It`s 20 minutes in order to get some." Or you -

BLOOM: 20 minutes of action.

PINKSY: An action, that`s what it was. An action should be - So, he sees rape and what? Action as consensual sex?

BLOOM: Right. And another family member said in one of the letters, you know, "Brock is the only one paying for this." As if somebody else should.

And who else would that be? The victim, presumably. He is the rapist. He is the one who should be paying for.

PINSKY: It`s very strange. Is that the logic that`s being applied? It does not build their case. It makes it somewhat worse.

BLOOM: Uh-hmm.

PINKSY: Joining me, CNN Correspondent Sara Sidner. Sara, the judge in this case is up for re-election today here in California. Will this case

affect the outcome of that race?

[19:03:01] SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not today, because he`s running unopposed. So, he`s not even on the ballot. He will be on the ballot in

November. He has ran before in 2010. He was elected unopposed. He was put into office in 2003 by then Governor Gray Davis. So, you know, at this

point, people can be outraged, but it takes 20 percent of the total number of people that voted in his area, in his district to come forward for a

recall position. That is what it takes. Those are the number of signatures, so we`re talking about a lot of people here who would have to

sign this recall petition.

And we`re not just talking about online, Dr. Drew, you know this very well. It has to be those people who could vote in an election that he is in. So,

we`re talking about his constituents, and that`s what`s going to take to recall, but there are certainly more than 253,000 people who have already

gone online to change.org and said they want him to be recalled. But that is people across the United States and world. It - so, it really does have

to be a localized event. If there is someone who has put forward a local petition, trying to get those signatures. Dr. Drew?

PINKSY: Sara, there is one other thing about this judge. Now, he is a Stanford alum. He was an athlete at Stanford.

SIDNER: Uh-hmm.

PINSKY: I don`t want to slip into the Trump world of conflict of interest.

SIDNER: Right.

PINKSY: But is that a - is that a significant conflict for him, do you think?

SIDNER: It`s been brought up by others who worked with him, with the law professors that worked - that works at Stanford have said, you know,

"Perhaps it has something to do with his -- the fact that he went to the school, that he graduated from here as an undergrad, that he was a captain

of the lacrosse team according to Stanford Daily, which is a local newspaper, the school newspaper. And maybe he sees himself in this person

saying, you know, look, he`s also an athlete, he`s also a, you know, a Stanford student. But, look, judges have to deal with a lot of different

things, and they`re looking at things such as were there any priors?

They do that all the time. I think one thing we should mention here is that unfortunately, this kind of thing happens a lot in courtrooms across

America. People just don`t know about it. And the reason why we know about this particular case is because of that incredibly eloquent and

searing letter written by the victim. And that, I think, is why everyone is talking. And then she`s getting social justice, maybe not the kind of

criminal justice that she wanted, Dr. Drew.

PINKSY: Thanks, Sara. Lisa, did she mean people of - who are white with privilege and money are getting their way in the courtroom? Is that what -

is that what you`re going into?

BLOOM: You know, I`ve done a lot of research and analysis about implicit bias.

PINKSY: Yeah.

BLOOM: And what it boils down to is that we all tend to think that people who are like us deserve leniency, right? And so, I`m sure the judge didn`t

consciously think, "Well, I`m a white male from Stanford. Here`s a white male from Stanford, therefore I`m going to give him a break. It doesn`t

work that way, but what it does -

PINKSY: It would - it would turn into a slippery slope. Is that a slippery slope to where a white judge shouldn`t judging a white person? A

black judge shouldn`t -

BLOOM: No, no, no. What it means is we need more diversity. And we need diversity on the bench and we needed - you know, everywhere, someone is

judging someone else.

PINKSY: And we are finally getting a look at Brock Turner`s mug shots from the night of the assault. They`ve been under wrap for 16 months despite

multiple request from the media including CNN and HLN. Stanford public safety authorities and the sheriff`s office blame one another for this

delay. Both claiming it was not their job to release these photos. Booking photos are public record under California law. So, is law

enforcement protecting this kid? Is there a bias against that as well?

BLOOM: You know, all I can tell you is usually when someone is arrested, that mug shot is out the same day.

PINSKY: Right.

BLOOM: All the media uses that mug shot in the articles. And this young man had Abercrombie & Fitch looking photo out. Right? And all of the

stories said swimmer and, you know, all-American swimmer, Olympic hopeful. They talked about his swimming ability, which is really totally irrelevant

to the issue here. So, it does look like bias. Again, I would say unconscious bias about the part of the media, the sheriff`s office and the

judge.

PINKSY: Bradford, are you still out there? I wonder if you have an opinion about all of this.

[19:06:49] BRADFORD COHEN, CRIMINAL LAWYER: I was going to interrupt Lisa but I didn`t want to.

PINKSY: Please.

COHEN: But I actually agree with one thing that Lisa actually said, is that it`s very unusual that the mug shot didn`t go out the same day. So, I

do agree with her on that. It`s a very unusual move. I`ve never seen mug shots been held longer than a week or so. And even when it`s a week,

everyone is up in arms about it. That being said, this - I think there were several things that came into play. Number one is your comment about

the judge. It`s an unusual situation, because you have judges across the country that are in situations where they can relate to defendants. It`s

not just in this case. And I don`t think it`s a black or white thing. I do agree that there is some in - on a - on a large scale, it can really -

is, you know, people with and without.

That`s huge, because the people with can really afford to get experts, to get investigators, to get all these type of things that really add to the

their case and benefit their case as opposed to someone who has a public defender. And let me tell you something, there are some excellent public

defenders out there. There are some excellent public defenders in Broward County where I`m from, but sometimes they don`t have the same resources

that someone with money has. So, you see that a lot in these kinds of situation. Now, the fact that the judge went to Stanford, I don`t think

that biased him to say, "OK. I`m going to give this guy six months because I went to Stanford and -

PINSKY: Well, but Lisa is bringing up the issue of implicit bias, which aren`t -

BLOOM: Right. And listen, the thing about implicit bias is -

COHEN: Yes, I understand what she`s saying.

BLOOM: -- it`s not a matter of opinion, it`s not a matter of whether you believe in it or not, it`s a matter of data, you know, millions of people

have been studied for the implicit bias project and it`s well-documented.

PINKSY: All right. Let me go back to Spirit. Spirit, you wanted to ring in on this, go ahead.

[19:08:28] SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yeah, you know, because I listened to Bradford last night. And I said, "OK. So, he just has these very sexist

beliefs." And now that I hear - now, some of the racial stuff, too. Where he goes, he goes.

COHEN: That is the most ridiculous thing I`d ever heard of in my life. Yesterday, she was accusing me of one, and now she`s accusing me of being a

sexist the other day.

SPIRIT: No, because what I heard you say was and it comes down to money.

(MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)

BLOOM: You`re interrupting. Let her talk.

SPIRIT: OK. Yeah. Because first what you said, you said it`s haves and have-nots. It`s about people that have money get justice, and people that

don`t, don`t. We know that race plays a serious, serious consequence to most of the crimes that -

(MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)

COHEN: I`m a defense attorney, you don`t think I know that?

SPIRIT: -- most people did. Then say that, then. We have to educate the public.

COHEN: I just did. I just did.

SPIRIT: We have to talk about what the world doesn`t know. What you said is it`s the haves and the have-nots. And you know as a defense attorney

that`s not -

COHEN: It is for the majority of the haves and have-nots. It`s not always black and white. O.J. Simpson would`ve not won that case.

SPIRIT: I didn`t say it is, but you said it`s -

(MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)

PINKSY: One at a time, guys. One at a time. One at a time. I have to turn your - I have to turn you -

SPIRIT: You can`t - you cannot say that it`s not at all. That`s it.

PINKSY: All right. I think the effort -

COHEN: I`m not saying it`s not at all.

PINSKY: To be fair, I think Bradford was responding something we said up here about how people bought justice, and somebody who has privilege may be

able to exert that privilege above and beyond the racial issues. But let`s - we have to end this segment. We have to end it right now. So next up,

alcohol is not an excuse for rape, but there is a serious problem with alcohol on college campuses. Where does it belong in this conversation?

My critics say it doesn`t belong in this conversation at all. We`ll get into that next. And later, more on rape and privilege. It`s easier to get

off the hook, as we - as Bradford pointed out, if you`re rich, and then - and as Spirit pointed out, if you`re white. Stay with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[19:14:08] BANFIELD: It is a rape victim`s letter to her attacker, "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable,

physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me. Sometimes I think, if I hadn`t gone, then this never would`ve happened. But then I realized,

it would have happened, just to somebody else. According to him, the only reason we were on the ground was because I fell.

Note, if a girl falls, help her get back up. If she`s too drunk to even walk and falls, do not mount her, hump her, take off her underwear. You

said, `Being drunk, I just couldn`t make the best decisions and neither could she.` Having too much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit

to, but it is not criminal. We were both drunk. The difference is that I did not take off your pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately and

run away. That`s the difference."

[19:15:05] PINKSY: Back with Lisa, Bradford, and Spirit, and joining us, Amy Ziering, producer of The Hunting Ground. A film about sexual assault

on college campuses. She`s interviewed hundreds of sexual assault survivors, including the victim in this case. And so, Amy, yesterday you

and I were talking about alcohol, whether or not it should be part of this conversation. Where does it fit in this?

[19:05:26] AMY ZIERING, HOLLYWOOD PRODUCER: It should - it has an absolutely no relationship to what happened. I mean, all of us have had

drinks. It doesn`t all make us commit felonies. I mean, that`s a square one. And I think people get confused by this issue. Alcohol is a weapon.

OK?

PINKSY: So, I - it out men use alcohol as a weapon.

ZIERING: Men use alcohol to incapacitate victims, and it involves the perpetrators, but it`s absolutely - it`s completely irrelevant.

PINKSY: So, as far as the perpetrator goes that as far as her being unconscious, it has some relevance.

ZIERING: Yeah, but all of us are unconscious, does that give anyone the right to do these things?

PINKSY: No, not at all. But my point is not -

ZIERING: I mean, as - if we`re sleeping, if we`ve -

PINKSY: My point if you`re sleeping, you wake up, but if you`re - if you`re rendered unconscious by a drug that`s routinely used on college

campuses, I`d say college campuses have a problem. Not that woman has a problem. She has the - she is a victim, she has nothing to do with this.

Colleges have a problem that there`s so much alcohol flying around that people use to the point of harming themselves, and then become the victims

of violent crimes.

ZIERING: Well, that`s not -

BLOOM: I think what you`re saying is the victim`s alcohol use means that legally, she is incapable of consent. As she said in the letter -

PINKSY: And if she - if she were not rendered -

BLOOM: -- if she could only speak in one word at a time, she`s not capable of consent.

PINKSY: If she were not unconscious - not that she`s responsible for being rendered unconscious, but if she were not unconscious, it figures - it

figures into this. You know, it`s not the cause, it`s not - it`s not an excuse.

BLOOM: Well, right. You don`t have to be -

PINKSY: There are two separate problems on college campuses. There`s a rape culture.

BLOOM: Yes. I think that`s very well -

PINKSY: And there`s a problem with alcohol. And those two things are crossing over all the time. It`s not -

ZIERING: (INAUDIBLE)

BLOOM: Well, I think that`s (INAUDIBLE) but you don`t have to be unconscious to be incapable of consent.

PINKSY: Oh, for sure. You - if you can`t drive a car, you can`t consent, essentially.

BLOOM: Right.

ZIERING: Exactly. I guess the problem I have is when you start saying it`s crossing over, is that then people use alcohol as an excuse -

PINKSY: Not excuse.

ZIERING: Or feel it covers up the crime or the crime is not comprehensible in a certain way. That`s my issue with.

PINSKY: Let`s look at what the victim said about what she wrote about her use of alcohol. She says, "I was warned, because you don`t remember, he`s

going to write the script, he can say whatever he wants, and no one can contest it. I had no power, I had no voice, I was defenseless, my memory

loss would be used against me. His attorney constantly reminded the jury, the only one we can believe is Brock because she doesn`t remember." So,

it`s pathetic that the alcohol - again, not only alcohol is used as a weapon, it`s used as a sophisticated criminal defense, right? A criminal

defense and a weapon in the court, too. So, the men are using it as a weapon and it`s used as a weapon in court.

ZIERING: Yeah, but only in these situations, right? If I`m drinking alcohol and walking down the street, and I`m hit by a car, suddenly my

alcohol consumption doesn`t become part of the narrative, right? And so, what`s interesting or unusual -

COHEN: It actually does.

ZIERING: I`m sorry, from -

PINSKY: Where`d that come from? Bradford, go ahead.

BLOOM: From Bradford.

COHEN: It actually does.

PINSKY: Yeah, go ahead. Tell us how.

COHEN: It actually does. In a simple case - in a - and again, I want to make it very clear, so Spirit doesn`t jump down my throat and Lisa jumps

down my throat, I`m making it very clear. What I`m saying is there`s two separate issues, drinking on campus and also a rape problem. Now, let`s

stop there for a minute. If you are - if you are drunk in a civil situation, if you`re drunk and you`re walking across the street and you

didn`t see what was going on, certainly there is some responsibility in that area. I`m not saying in this area. What I`m saying is colleges have

a rampant, rampant problem with alcohol.

ZIERING: Wait.

COHEN: It is leaking over into leading to these types of situations. The way - let me finish.

ZIERING: OK. First of all, you interrupted me and you said when I -

COHEN: Let me just finish. Let me make my point and then you can say whatever you want. What I`m trying to say is I`m not giving an excuse that

this rape was because she was drunk and she`s anything like that.

PINSKY: OK. Let`s stop this.

(MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)

COHEN: What I`m saying is the alcohol problem.

PINSKY: Underline that. Shine a light in this. State it again. The alcohol is totally separate from the rape, but it coexist in problem.

COHEN: Totally separate.

PINKSY: If they had - if they had an infectious disease on campus at the same time.

COHEN: It coexists, yes.

PINSKY: You said it was a separate problem.

COHEN: Yes. Yes, Dr. Drew. Yes.

PINSKY: All right. OK. OK. Separate. Go ahead.

COHEN: And you have to solve - you have to solve this alcohol problem in campus. Campuses are ignoring it. They`re not doing anything about it.

You know, parents are sending their kids to college and they don`t expect bad things to happen to them there. But bad things are happening not just

because of alcohol and drug abuse, but it is leading to that.

BLOOM: OK. But we are here to talk about rape.

COHEN: Over 100,000 - let me finish. Over 100,000 sexual assaults a year take place on college campuses and they are alcohol related. That is not

giving an excuse to why that should happen. I am saying you need to solve that alcohol problem to eventually lead to solving all of the rest of the

issues that are having on -

PINSKY: I got -- OK. That`s one of the issues they need to solve. But go ahead, Amy. Tell us what you want to say.

ZIERING: OK. You could solve -

COHEN: Yes.

ZIERING: You could solve the alcohol problem and you`d still have rapes.

PINSKY: Yes, that`s true. That`s true. That`s true.

ZIERING: I mean, it`s my issue with what you`re saying. So, you`re actually conflating two things.

PINSKY: That`s true. We`re both saying the same thing.

ZIERING: And you`re confusing the issue by conflating them.

BLOOM: Yes.

ZIERING: As you interrupted me and said something that I didn`t say.

PINSKY: Good. Please finish. Please finish.

ZIERING: So, I did - I said if you`re walking down the street, and you consumed alcohol, and you`re hit by a car, you`re - the fact that you have

been -- consumed alcohol is completely irrelevant to that.

PINSKY: That`s not true. That`s what he said.

ZIERING: It actually -

COHEN: Right.

ZIERING: It actually is true.

PINSKY: No, according to him, not.

ZIERING: No, he said if you`re not looking where you`re going. I`m saying you`re doing exactly what you should be doing, you`re walking down, a car

jumps the sidewalk because the person hasn`t held alcohol - has had alcohol and they hit you, it is completely irrelevant whatever state you`re in.

You don`t sit there and go, you know, I asked for it because I was walking down the street. I mean, if - and so, that`s what I`m saying. And it`s

this situation, these crimes are exactly identical. And that`s my problem. It`s completely irrelevant the state of the person - that the crimes are

committed to.

PINSKY: Go ahead, audience.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that this one - this is an injustice. Not only that affects the image of Stanford University, but it also negatively

impacts the United States social justice system against what the values of women are. Women do not have a voice in this society. Women need to be

heard in regards of rape cases that always go undermined, and rapists are usually held into the light and given more of an opportunity to have a

better life rather than the victim.

BLOOM: Yes.

PINSKY: I think this kid is going to destroy his whole -

BLOOM: Well, I think the audience addressed that because on this historic day, when we have the first female presumptive nominee presidential

candidate.

PINSKY: Yup.

BLOOM: We still have this huge problem with rape in America.

PINKSY: Yes.

BLOOM: And it`s a huge Women`s Rights problem.

PINSKY: Yes.

BLOOM: And every time we talk about alcohol when we`re supposed to be talking about rape. And then thank God and kudos to you for devoting the

entire show to this, and to Ashleigh Banfield and the CNN for reading the entire letter. This should be about rape. And when we talk about the

alcohol, it`s as if we`re saying she has a part in it.

PINSKY: We`re not.

BLOOM: She is - yes, we are.

PINSKY: No, we`re not.

BLOOM: Because we talk about (INAUDIBLE)

PINSKY: Lisa, we`re not. Lisa, Lisa -

BLOOM: -- she`s an audience member we`re talking about.

PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) you know me. That`s not what I`m saying. You know that`s not what I`m saying.

BLOOM: I`m not saying that`s what you`re saying but -

ZIERING: (INAUDIBLE) and then talking about alcohol. That`s irrelevant.

PINSKY: I - that was major problem.

ZIERING: That does not fit in here.

PINSKY: No, you can`t square. Hold a second, please. We have a problem on college campuses. I`ve been walking around college campus for 10 years

talking about the alcohol problem. Please don`t tell me there`s not an alcohol problem on campuses. That`s the second problem in addition to the

rape problem. They both add impact to health and well-being of college students. Why can I as a physician have an opinion about two important

health issues?

BLOOM: Well, of course, you can, but -

PINSKY: Thank you. That`s all I`m saying.

BLOOM: -- it`s fantastic is devoting the entire show to rape, and there`s so much to talk about -

PINSKY: That`s what I`m doing. I`m devoting the whole show to rape but by the way, I would remind you there`s an alcohol problem out there, too.

BLOOM: There`s so much to - but there`s so much to talk about -

PINSKY: That`s all I`m saying.

BLOOM: OK. OK. But I`m not going to shout with you. But let`s talk about rape because there`s so much to talk about.

PINKSY: That`s - we`ve been out 40 minutes. That`s what we`re going to talk about, OK? I promise.

BLOOM: OK. And your audience member wants to point out the Women`s Rights angle which is so important.

PINKSY: And we`re going to get in all of that. You know, I promise. A popular radio host tweets that women should watch what they drink. Here`s

that - this is why I can`t talk about alcohol problem. Now, she`s under fire for victim shaming. She joins us next. And later, two Stanford grad

students on a bike save the rape survivor in this story. Would your son stop to help? That`s an important question. Stay with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRYSTAL GIOKAS: They kept asking me, like, "What were you wearing?" like, "What were you drinking?" like, "How much did you have to drink? Did you

(INAUDIBLE)?

SARAH BEDO: He kind of just lectured us about how we shouldn`t go out in short skirts, and we shouldn`t drink, because I mean, that`s our fault.

IMAN STENSON: And did you say no? I mean, how did you say no? How was that - OK. What were you wearing?

HOPE BRINN: She said, "You don`t know what he`s going through right now, never do I. He could be really having a hard time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:57:46] PINSKY: That is a clip from The Hunting Ground, a powerful documentary about the rape culture on college campuses. We are talking

about the former Stanford athlete who received a six-month jail sentence for raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. Back with Lisa,

Bradford, Spirit, and Amy. Joining me is Cheryl Hunter. She`s a rape trauma recovery expert and survivor. On the phone, I have Heidi Harris,

hosted the Heidi Harris Show on AM 840 in Las Vegas. Heidi, you took a lot of heat for this tweet you posted yesterday, "When will young women learn

that getting wasted in a room full of heat-seeking college boys is not a good idea. #prevention, #BrockTurner. What do you say to your critics?

[19:58:26] HEIDI HARRIS, HEIDI HARRIS SHOW HOST: Well, I`ll say that I want girls to be safe. And when they want to ignore that that`s a hazard,

they`re not going to be teaching anybody to be safe. I mean, if you leave your purse on the front seat of your car, somebody is going to say, "Well,

why did you do that?" if it`s stolen. And I`m - and I`m not saying anybody ever deserves to be sexually assaulted. That`s very clear. Everyone knows

that. But there are certain things you just wouldn`t advise somebody to do, and if you ask the average man, "Would you send your drunk 19-year-old

sister into a frat house party, they`d all say no, because it`s not a good idea.

PINSKY: Lisa?

BLOOM: So, what we`re assuming is that men are rapists, and they`re going to rape. And the responsibility is on the young women. I mean, listen, I

agree, I don`t want young women or young men to be so drunk that they can`t make good choices, but until we get to the point where everybody really

does take rape seriously, I don`t think we`re at that point, because we`re talking about a judge who gave a guy only six months. So, we live in a

rape culture where a lot of people get a slap on the wrist for rape. And I think the focus should be on the perpetrators. They`re the bad guys.

They`re the ones causing the harm, not the victims.

PINSKY: Not the victim. Right. Spirit, you still - I`m sorry. Last segment I couldn`t get you. Go ahead.

SPIRIT: Yeah. You know, Heidi and both Bradford, they bring in this piece that we`re talking about, Dr. Drew, that`s the other caveat. And even to

what you`re saying, this is about accountability. There are always going to be rapists. Since the beginning of time, there have been. Since the

end of time, there will be. There will always be issues with alcohol even if you make it illegal. So, we have to talk about accountability, how to

protect yourself so you are not the victim in the herd. That`s what it`s all about.

PINSKY: But Spirit, be careful. I feel like you`re defending Heidi a little bit. Go - do clarify your position.

SPIRIT: Because what she`s saying is, listen, it`s not a smart idea so you have to know how not to make yourself a target. There will always be rape.

There will always be rapists, Dr. Drew, no matter what the culture says, no matter how much restriction we put on them, no matter how tough the crimes

are. There will be people who rape. How do you avoid being a victim? Be educated, be smart and make good choices.

PINSKY: Amy, you disagree with that?

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hang on, Heidi. Hang on. Amy.

ZIERING: Yes. I, again, just -- I`m concerned that the shift and the focus is now putting on the behavior of a victim of a crime and I just

don`t think that`s completely --

PINSKY: Well, Cheryl, you had a severe sexual assault. Your story was breathtaking and - you know, maybe you can --

CHERYL HUNTER, RAPE TRAUMA SURVIVOR: But this woman was 23. She just went to a party.

PINSKY: Yep, go ahead. Well, what would you tell her -- what would you tell her if -

(CROSSTALK)

CHERYL HUNTER, RAPE TRAUMA SURVIVOR: And what was said earlier is,

We as women avoid being victims.

PINSKY: Well, if you - if she were listening right now is there anything you would tell her? Go ahead, Cheryl, please.

HUNTER: Well, it was just said, how do we avoid being victims as women? No. How do we have men not rape? So what I would say to her is, we -- she

said something in her letter that she`s reaching out to all of us that have been raped. Well, we, too, have got your back.

It said that there`s been, you know, I don`t know, 11.3 million people in this country that have been raped, and nobody wants to be a part of that

tribe, but yet here we are. And we, too, know what you`ve been through, and we hear your pain and we have your back. Thank you for having ours.

Thank you for giving a voice to this important, important issue, and I`m sorry, but you are not alone.

HEIDI HARRIS, RADIO HOST: You know what, nobody talk - no, but she`s talking about the is (INAUDIBLE) time when to know their attackers. And

I`m saying I want to drop those statistics to virtually none. I don`t want any woman sexually assaulted. But a lot of times, it`s in a situation

where everybody is drinking, she gets them, they separated her off to some other part of the frat house or a guy takes her out with something to drink

or something like that, alcohol is involved, not blaming the woman.

But to not tell women how dangerous it is to walk into a frat house full of testosterone-filled guys and be drunk out of your mind and not be able to

protect yourself to not tell women that is lying to them. To not tell them, no matter what happens, it`s never your fault, honey. Just go ahead

and walk down the street drunk off your butt. It`s never your fault.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: It`s not her fault if she`s drunk off her butt. It`s not her fault is she is in a fraternity. You absolutely are wrong about that.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: She`s putting herself at risk.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Imagine if this was attempted murder. Let`s just say this was an attempted murder trial. Could you ever the (INAUDIBLE) of saying to a

victim that was shocked, "Hey, what were you wearing? Were you drinking at the time? What are your political views? Who have you slept with in the

past?" That is irrelevant.

HARRIS: You might if it`s somebody who was in gang or a gang member.

HUNTER: That has nothing to do with it.

HARRIS: No. It does have something to do with it because you have bad lifestyle and --

HUNTER: Please. We`re not talking gang members.

HARRIS: I`m saying, you said what if it was an attempted murder? I`m saying if the person lived a bad lifestyle, they were in drugs, gangs,

whatever, drug deal, and they almost got killed, yeah, that`s a --

HUNTER: So rape victim is a lifestyle choice, then? Rape victim is a lifestyle choice?

PINSKY: Cheryl, hold on right there, I want to hear from the audience. Yes, sir, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I actually think you guys are missing the point. I think it`s the culture that this young man actually was raised up in.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: His culture origin, not the college campus?

COHEN: Yeah.

PINSKY: And you`re basing it on what his dad was saying on that letter and stuff, right?

COHEN: Yes. Because, if he grew up in a culture that said, OK, whatever you do, it`s all right, you will just get a slap on the wrist. What kind

of - what kind of message does that send to him? This actually reminds me a lot about the Affluenza case where he killed people and he just got a

slap on the wrist. That`s unacceptable.

HARRIS: Absolutely. I agree with that.

BLOOM: And to this young man`s point, I mean, the whole family circled around him, asking for leniency.

PINSKY: Well, and he had a lot of money in the courtroom, a lot of ability to - the Affluenza came from a highly paid expert. have heard that

association a couple times in the conversation about this case. I think it - the Affluenza association is maybe two or three different things, which

is privilege, right, the ability to pay for somebody who can come up with a crazy defense like Affluenza and to get this guy a slap on the wrist and

the fact we live in a culture where rape is not seriously punished perhaps.

COHEN: But, you know what, if you start punishing these guys, then we`ll start getting the message through. We have to start somewhere, so start

right now.

PINSKY: All right. I`m going to - but I have to stop right here rather than start. Next up, a former Harvard law student alleged that she was

drugged and sexually assaulted, then victimize zed again by the University. Find out what they did not do, next. And later, a guy who says Brock

Turner`s sentence is worse than it sounds. We`ll hear from a convicted sex felon. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Every unwanted health outcome on a - on a college campus, you find alcohol, whether it`s an accident, an STD, a pregnancy, a rape, whatever,

always alcohol. When are college campuses going to catch up with that?

When are they going to catch up with that and when are they going to catch with the rape culture? They have serious health issues on college

campuses. We are talking the former Stanford student convicted of sexual assaulting an unconscious 23-year-old woman. His punishment, six months in

county jail.

Back with Lisa, Bradford, Amy, Cheryl. Joining us in the audience, I have Kamilah Willingham. She was featured in "The Hunting Ground" the

documentary. Kamilah, you had a familiar experience to this - to this young woman, right?

KAMILAH WILLINGHAM: Yes. My assailant was someone I knew very well. It was one of my good friends. And after a night of drinking, I was

incapacitated and I woke up to him sexually assaulting me. And, similarly, there was a huge focus on how hard - how hard him sexually assaulting me

and another woman was on him rather than the consequences for me and the other woman.

PINSKY: That was a very similar story.

WILLINGHAM: Very similar story. And there were also similar distractions about how much I drank, how much the other woman drank, or may the alcohol

is the reason that he did it as if, you know, that`s something that people just do. You drink and then you start raping people.

PINSKY: Did he use the alcohol like a weapon? Did he make sure you were consuming a lot of it?

WILLINGHAM: Yes. I think more so for the other woman he assaulted the same night. There might have been other drugs involved, that`s something

that we`ll never know. I mean other date rape drugs involved.

PINSKY: Right. I actually have a question for Lisa. I know you`re very involved in the Bill Cosby thing. Why is alcohol not looked at as a date

rape drug?

BLOOM: I think it should be. I think that`s a very good point. Yes.

PINSKY: Right. Same thing.

BLOOM: I mean absolutely.

PINSKY: Same thing. And then can`t tell how many times I`ve seen women think they`ve been drugged, but in fact it was just the alcohol that did

it.

BLOOM: Yeah.

PINSKY: Alcohol is remarkably powerful if you drink quickly enough, so.

BLOOM: As in the case we`re talking about. She was completely passed out from alcohol.

PINSKY: Same thing, incapacitated. I am so sorry that happened to you. Did it happen to you in the state of California?

WILLINGHAM: No, that was in Massachusetts while I was studying at Harvard.

PINSKY: And - well, did the institution respond to this -- or it seemed like because institutions of the east are more responsive, no?

WILLINGHAM: You would think so. They`ve been responsive in a way.

PINSKY: I`m shocked that Stanford has not fallen on their sword. I`m shocked.

BLOOM: Well, don`t be shocked. I`ve had cases against a number of major universities east and west and I still do and they do not respond.

PINSKY: It`s hard to believe, but go ahead, Kamilah. I`m sorry.

WILLINGHAM: Yes. So there was a hearing. It was extremely humiliating for me and the other victim. He was eventually found responsible and then

there this secret appeals process. I believe he just graduated, they let him back in after I left. And now, 19 of my former professors have come

out, talking about, again, how he`s the real victim in this case.

PINSKY: He`s the victim?

WILLINGHAM: Yes.

PINSKY: He`s the victim? How does that work?

WILLINGHAM: You know, trial was hard on him, I guess.

PINSKY: I`m sure it was. Spirit, help me with this. Why aren`t the institutions, you know, other than keeping that particular student -- oh,

Spirit is gone. Is Bradford there? No?

COHEN: Yeah, sure.

PINSKY: Yes, Bradford.

COHEN: I`m here.

PINSKY: I don`t understand why colleges or these institutions aren`t taking more aggressive action. They`re certainly not letting the kid on

campus, but that does nothing to change the overall culture.

COHEN: No. You know, listen, you know, you could tell kids to do things over and over again, but enforcement is the only way to get something done.

Children generally don`t listen. When I tell you talk children, I mean 18 years old.

Doctor, you know, the brain is still developing, it could still be developing well into, you know, the early 20s. These kids do not

understand unless there`s enforcement. There is no enforcement. I will say that as an defense attorney.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: No, but you`re right. What we have found over and over again and trying to change behavior of adolescence, education does very little.

BLOOM: The big institutions want to protect themselves. Your question was about the institutions and why they don`t want more.

PINSKY: Yeah.

BLOOM: They want to protect their good name. It does not look good for them if there were 10 or 100 rapes that they to report that, you know, and

they`re just not good at handling it.

ZIERING: That`s what we show in the hunting ground. You think that the colleges are on your side as a student, right, and that your - their best

interests - your best interests are what they have most in mind, but unfortunately that`s what our film shows, they don`t. They`re more - you

know, Harvard`s brand was more important than Kamilah --

PINSKY: Bradford?

ZIERING: -- and their students.

COHEN: Hey, doctor, if you look, you know, frat parties are like the institution of college. Kids look at frats when they`re picking colleges

and they know what goes on in these frat houses. They know - and I`m sure a lot of my friends are going to say what a jerk I am right now, but they -

- the colleges know that frat houses are like an incubation for this type of crime. So, they are - they are just ignoring it. They`re not

correcting the problem, they`re not enforcing the problem, and it`s not just, you know, one thing or the other. They`re not even doing the simple

things. They`re not curbing these parties that they. They`re not curbing alcohol, they`re not curbing the drugs.

PINSKY: Let me interrupt you, Bradford. I`ve got to - I`ve got to go out to Randy Sutton via Skype. He`s author of " A Cop`s Life," former

detective in Princeton, New Jersey.

Randy, do you think campus police are doing a decent job in handling sexual assault -- you can`t hear me? Can you hear me, Randy? He doesn`t hear me.

Amy, finish what you want to say there.

ZIERING: I was going to - I was going to refine what you said.

I mean, frat culture is a part of the problem, but it`s more than it gives cover to rapists, and I also want to say and explain that. Only a small

percentage of men commit these crimes. But what studies have shown as if we have rape culture, if we have rape listed alcohol is the problem,

they`re not the perpetrators which really, you know, clouds the issue. Then we don`t - we don`t hold these men accountable and they`re allowed in

these cultures, like fraternities, like college campuses, like the military to commit these crimes over and over again and that`s why you see the

epidemic numbers.

And that`s why begging and imploring everybody to really understand the problem as you`ve been saying - or the perpetrators and all we have to do

is prosecute these -- them properly and meet punishment and stop their ability to keep committing these crimes over and over again.

PINSKY: Next up, a man convicted of felony sex assault says the Stanford rapist punishment is worse than it sounds. That`s good actually, right?

He`ll explain. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On January 18th, 2015, right after midnight, two Stanford grad students were biking across campus and spotted a freshman

thrusting himself on an unconscious half naked woman behind a dumpster at a party. The cyclists are truly heroes in this story. They tackled Brock

Turner until the police arrived.

Thank you to the two men who saved me, who I have yet to meet. I sleep with two bicycles that I drew taped above my bed to remind myself there are

heroes in this story.

PINSKY: And what those two guys did is a great example of the maxim, if you see something, say something. Back with Lisa, Bradford, Amy, we have

Randy Sutton back as well. Randy, did the campus police, are they doing a good job of handling sexual assault claims?

RANDY SUTTON, FORMER DETECTIVE: Well, it depends on which campus you`re talking about. It`s a - it`s shocking statistic, Dr. Drew. I`m going to

tell you that in 2014, 91% of college campuses reported zero sexual assaults. Zero.

Now, so that`s going to depends on which campus that you`re talking about. Remember, they`re taking their marching orders from their bosses.

PINSKY: And who are the bosses?

SUTTON: The administrators of the universities. They`re taking orders from them.

PINSKY: So, it sounds like they`re - it sounds like they`re doing a bad job. If - is 91% of campuses not experiencing any sexual assault?

BLOOM: No, of course not. The problem is the reporting, of course.

PINSKY: So, they`re not doing a good job?

BLOOM: No. They`re doing a terrible job because they`re covering it up.

ZIERING: Everybody should watch The Hunting Ground. I mean we do a really good job of explaining that. But, again, you know, you think that the

colleges is looking at to protect students, but actually, they`re looking to cover up there`s crimes so that there`s no bad PR.

PINSKY: So, Randy, what should be done from the law enforcement standpoint?

SUTTON: There should be mandatory reporting just like a physician has to report -

PINSKY: There isn`t?

SUTTON: -- a certain crime.

PINSKY: There isn`t?

SUTTON: Well, keep this in mind, that the victim, the victim is already making a very -- it`s a very difficult crime to report in the best of

cases. So depending on how many layers they have to go through, they may be getting talked out of making these reports or being told that they will

be handled internally and that`s been happening.

PINSKY: What?

SUTTON: Yes.

PINSKY: Don`t they go to the emergency room and get a forensic kit?

BLOOM: Not necessarily -- listen, in the best of worlds, yes. But in the real world a victim might tell her best friend and then she might tell a

college counselor or a trusted teacher, and somehow it gets to the university and they often are - they do try to talk them out. If they try

to talk them out of going forward, again, because they want to protect the institution and the brand of the institution. I see that in my cases where

I represent rape victims.

PINSKY: It`s stunning. I guarantee you the health providers on campus would be an ally of the students. They don`t -- I don`t understand why the

law enforcement isn`t at least bringing people to the healthcare providers. I don`t understand that. Isn`t that their obligation?

SUTTON: Well, remember that many of these college campuses don`t have law enforcement. They have private security. Private security works by a

different set of rules than law enforcement does.

And here`s the real travesty here is that law enforcement has the expertise. They have the resources to investigate these crimes. And

that`s who needs to be investigating these crimes, not -- not -- there are campus committees that are being charged with investigating these crimes,

and you`re seeing a number of civil lawsuits taking place when they actually throw people out of school based on no evidence.

PINSKY: All right. Let me - let me go to break. When we get back, I`m going to bring Tim Russo in here. He`s a convicted sex offender and he

says that the issue - well, he says Brock Turner`s punishment is worse than it seems. Be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[0:19:57] PINSKY: I`m back with Lisa and Spirit and joining me, Tim Russo. He was convicted of a sex felony much like Brock Turner. Tim, you think

that punishment is actually worse than it sounds. That`s six months in jail. Tell me why.

TIM RUSSO, CONVICTED SEX FELON: First, thanks for doing this, Dr. Drew, especially from a - from a public health perspective. I think that`s the

way - the best way to handle any crimes. The first thing is a correction for you. I was not convicted of anything near what Brock Turner was

convicted of, so.

One of the things that people who get convicted of such crimes have to deal with for the rest of their life, you kind of question. And the reason I

believe that Brock Turner`s punishment is worse than it should be is because I believe the sex offender registry is wrong. It`s immoral, it`s

unconstitutional, and it`s counterproductive.

And when I was growing up, I was thought about -- a lot about crime and punishment. You know, I grew up catholic in inner city of Cleveland and,

you know, you got punished pretty hard when you did something wrong. You weren`t punished for the rest of your life when you did something wrong,

and that is what`s happening to Brock Turner. It`s going to happen to him - it`s going to happen to him tomorrow, 10 years from now.

BLOOM: I mean, he raped an unconscious young woman and she has to bear the pain and the psychological bruises of that for the rest of her life. We

need to know where you are, sex offenders. We need to know. That`s why we have the registry. Courts have upheld it over and over again so it`s not

unconstitutional. And I`m sorry, if you don`t want to be in the registry, don`t commit a sex crime. It`s that simple.

PINSKY: Spirit, you wanted to comment here?

SPIRIT: Amen, that is the bottom line here. As matter of fact, recidivism rates tell you that, yes, they do need a list. We always need to know

where they are. Parents stop thinking that your kids are perfect, talk to them, let them know, protect yourself, don`t do the wrong thing, and if you

do, you need to pay the price period.

PINSKY: And let`s raise our young men to understand this, right?

BLOOM: Yes, isn`t that the most important point? To respect women and to understand what the rules are.

PINSKY: Not to talk about action or getting some. That`s crazy. That`s really, really -

BLOOM: And the pain that this causes. Everyone should read their young men the letter from this victim.

PINSKY: All right, everybody, thank you so much. Please DVR the show. Tell a friend. Thank you all for watching. Of course, we`ll see you next

time, and guess who`s up next? It is Nancy Grace. See you then.

END