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Dr. Drew
An Alligator Lurking In Lagoon At The Disney Resort Snatched A 2- Year-Old Boy Playing Near The Water`s Edge; Orlando`s Nightclub Massacre, Could Have Been Prevented By The Killer`s Wife; More Outrage Directed At The Judge Who Sentence The Stanford Rapist To Only Six Months In Jail; Stanford Rapist Take Photos Of The Victim And Her Naked Breast And Then Shared Them On Social Media
Aired June 15, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:15] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF JERRY DEMINGS, ORANGE COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Where we are dealing with this family now who there is no question will lose a 2-year-
old child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): A family of four from Nebraska vacationing at a Disney Resort in Orlando when something
unimaginable happened. The toddler snatched by a gator right in front of his parents while playing in a manmade lagoon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF WILLIAMSON, SHERIFF`S SPOKESMAN: This 2-year-old child was playing at the edge of the water, probably about a foot or so into the
water, when this alligator came up and attacked the child. The father did his best. He tried to rescue the child, however, to no avail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER(voice-over): The mother reportedly also went into the water trying to save her child. Helicopters, marine units
and an alligator trapper all part of this recovery effort.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMINGS: It is certainly not survivable at this point for him to have been submerged for this period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As you heard, an alligator lurking in lagoon at the Disney Resort snatched a 2-year-old boy playing near the water`s edge. His father
tried desperately to pry his son from the jaws of that alligator, but tonight we know the little boy is gone. For the latest, let us go to CNN
Correspondent, Martin Savidge, reporting from Lake Buena Vista, Florida. Martin, what is the latest?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNNC CORRESPONENT: Dr. Drew, it was about 1:45 local time this afternoon that authorities say dive teams located the body of
Lane Graves. That is the 2-year-old now identified. He was recovered from the water. The authorities say his body, but it appears the apparent cause
of death was drowning.
The sheriff said that he personally went to the boy`s parents, notified them. They were, as you could imagine, distraught, but he says
that they were also grateful that the authorities fulfilled their mission to find their child. An unimaginable horror played out starting around
little 9:00 last night.
The family had gone to watch a movie out near the lake as part of the Disney entertainment. And as that 2-year-old boy was wading in the water,
that is apparently when the attack occurred. Authorities believe they have perhaps recovered the alligator. They have killed five. They will keep
searching.
They do not know how many are in the water. And one last thing, there are signs that are posted all along this Disney lake front. They
warn people not to go swimming. They make no mention of the alligators, and that is a problem, say guests, because they did not know they were
there or that the danger lurked beneath the water. Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Martin. Now, also joining me tonight, I have Dr. Evan Antin, an exotic animal veterinarian. I also have AnneElise Goetz,
attorney and Spiri, Psychotherapist. AnneElise, is Martin bringing something up appropriate here? Is there a liability merely by virtue of
them saying do not swim, but do not watch out for the alligators?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: No. I do not think we are going to see liability on the part of Disney in this case. This is a tragedy. And I
think the knee jerk in this country is to say, blame the business. And in this case you do have warnings all over the lagoon saying, "Do not go in
the water." "Do not swim."
Most likely those were not to prevent people to engaging with alligators, but maybe it was not sanitary, it was not safe. And the reason
I say that is because there is no indication that there would be alligators in the water. And as a result, I think it is just an unexpected horrible,
horrible tragedy, but not necessarily one that is going to trigger liability to Disney.
PINSKY: I am amazed and enhearten to hear an attorney not begin to sort of look for liability and to say that simply accidents happen. Evan,
are you surprised? One of the things people are keep coming to me about is, "Oh, my God! The child was intact. How is that possible?" Does that
surprise you?
EVAN ANTIN, ANIMAL EXPERT: It is not a huge shock, but the thing is sometimes crocodilians, including alligators, do capture their prey and
then they will leave it under water for a meal for later. They want it to decompose a little bit more before they actually consume it.
PINSKY: Yes.
ANTIN: So I think the intent was there. I think it would have gotten eaten eventually but not necessarily immediately.
PINSKY: You know, Spirit, hearing Evan talk about this in such -- I mean it is the factual zoological fact, but I am finding myself wanting to
throw up a lot these days as I am reporting what is going on in the world. But this one, just to imagine being in the position of those parents, it is
not something that you are meant to be able to tolerate.
SPIRIT, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, my gosh, they cannot even imagine it, Dr. Drew. But it is interesting, because I heard you say it was an
accident. In my mind, it was a bad choice, and there is a big difference. So when you have signs all over the place --
PINSKY: Are you going to blame -- are you blaming the parents?
SPIRIT: Listen, as a parent -- and you know, Dr. Drew, I have six children. You hear me say this all the time. If there are signs up all
over the place, I am not so caught up in the fact that this is Disney. It says "Do not go in the water" and it is nighttime. You do not know what is
in that water. We are not going in. That is all I am saying here.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: What does it say? Can we read it? "No swimming, please" or something. No swimming is different than do not go in the
water. And let me go back to Evan. Evan, is not it the case that even if you have just your toes in the water, these crocodiles can jump out of the
water and grab you in milliseconds.
ANTIN: Yes. I mean, technically, so alligators that are in the area, they are ambush predators, and they often hunt at the water`s edge. So
even if you are not really submerged at all in the water, but you are right by the edge there, that is their zone. That is their territory, and that
is where they got a lot of their prey and they end up consuming.
PINSKY: On the phone, I have Jack Hanna. He is Director Emeritus of the Columbus Zoo, host of "Jack Hanna`s into the Wild." Jack, thanks for
joining us. Is it something terribly unlikely that an alligator would attack a human being?
JACK HANNA, DIRECTOR EMERITUS, COLUMBUS ZOO: (via phone) Not likely. I mean, Disney has done a great job. So I am just saying we have all
probably been there. They work very hard with the Game and Fish Commission in Florida. When they have gators there, they told people to take them out
of there.
Remember, somewhere in the spring time, as the other gentleman knows, there is lots of breeding and that kind of thing go on by alligators.
Gators can go through pipes. They can walk down road. They can do all sorts of things to get in there. They try to remove those gators.
But I will tell you one thing I just heard today after all these interviews is the attorney who just said that, at least somebody is decent
in the law profession, so to speak, on this issue, that what she said really means a lot to me and all of us who are heartbroken with this
father.
And the other gentleman who said that as far as alligators, when I filmed them all over the world or crocodiles, where I go to, he is right
about that. When I see women doing the clothes, and I got pictures of the tribes -- that people show me in Africa and Asia where they have different
crocodiles and alligators, a lot of them are done when they are washing clothes.
They come up out of there, that is why they got those large eyeballs like a submarine as he knows, they could look out there, see what is
happening, because with this splashing to then prey for this gator. Knowing just splashing, they can feel vibrations under water, some people
say a mile away.
So they feel those vibrations, they do not know that is a human. And all of a sudden that thing is like a bullet when he goes towards shores.
Your guest just said that he shoots up there like a rocket. I was always been puzzled the last few hours, when I heard, you know, it is terrible,
but at least the family can have closure somewhat and they know that the body was found intact.
It was surprising to me because, maybe it was all the people chasing the gator, going in the water, trying to get the child, I do not know, but
I thought for sure that they would not find the youngster, but it is terrible. I do a lot of things like this when we lose friends. You get
hit by lightning or win a lottery before getting eaten by an alligator.
Most alligators are afraid of people. But when you go and feed alligators like some people do, they do not know it is a human, they just
know it is a food source. And that happens in Florida, you are also going to be fined and also a jail sentence, because that is just habituating
those animals and you cannot do that, because you have a big problem.
Look at Florida developments all over the place, building lakes and everything. The gators are in them. Golf courses have gators. They can
run 20 to 30 feet faster than any human on the planet. I have seen him -- it is almost frightening how fast they go, but people do not realize that.
They should stay 50, 60 feet away from them.
PINSKY: And to be fair, Jack. To be fair, I mean, this is a place where non-Floridians are coming out. I was thinking about how often I have
been to Florida. The last time I was there, I was out running and I was thinking, "Boy, it is flat, there is water everywhere. There could be
snakes and alligators can pop out of here." I do not know anything about that. I am from out of town. I do not know how this works. You want to
say something, AnneElise?
GOETZ: I do, because I want to --
PINSKY: You want to thank, Jack.
GOETZ: Well, first of all, Jack, I used to see you all the time at the Columbus Zoo. I am from Ohio, so, hi, nice to have you on the show.
But what I wanted to say is that when you had on, Dr. Drew, is an important point that it is a lot of tourists and it is one more reason that I do not
want to see blame placed on the parents.
PINSKY: Yes, I know.
GOETZ: Because I have seen it on social media.
PINSKY: I know.
GOETZ: And I cannot handle it. I cannot handle the viciousness of the attacks. What these parents have gone through is heart-wrenching.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: What people say on Twitter makes me furious.
PINSKY: Yes. Whatever else, you have our support, and that should be the attitude of everyone. These parents have gone through the unthinkable.
Thank you, panel.
HANNA: Yes.
PINSKY: Next, a CNN colleague in Orlando arrives at that tragic scene of that alligator attack just minutes after it all happened. He will
tell us what he saw. That is next.
And later, another Orlando tragedy -- oh, my God, what is going on down there? The nightclub massacre. How much did the killer`s wife know
and could she be held accountable? Stay with us.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF CORWIN, ANIMAL CONSERVATIONIST: It is incredibly hard to open an adult alligator`s mouth. Even if you are a human being, an adult male
like myself, it would be impossible for me to physically pry open the jaw of an adult alligator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DINO FERRI, CENTRAL FLORIDA ZOO (voice-over): It does not mean it is always going to work, but the best advice is to hit him smack in the nose,
in the snout, and basically what that does, it usually makes a reflex where they open their mouth up, which then you can free yourself. The worst
thing to do is pry. Whenever you try to pry an alligator or crocodile is mouth open, it just snaps down tighter and stronger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Horrified parents watch as an alligator snatched their 2- year-old son from the beach and dragged him under water. I am back with Dr. Evan Antin, Exotic Animal Veterinarian; AnneElise Goetz, Attorney and
Spirit, Psychotherapist. Joining me, Ramona Escobar, CNN colleague, who witnessed the tragic aftermath of this attack. Ramon, tell us what you
saw.
RAMON ESCOBAR, WITNESSED AFTERMATH OF ALLIGATOR ATTACK: Well, Drew, this is a park where around that time, 9:00 and 10:00, everyone is coming
from the different parks that are having their fireworks celebrations and parades, so it is that time period where everyone is coming back to the
resort.
The grand Floridian is one of the most luxurious and expensive resorts here at the Disney Park. And everyone was strolling in, and as
they came in, they were met with 10, 12 emergency vehicles, flashing lights, Disney people putting up cones, asking people not to go in certain
areas.
And so as I came in, I went into the pool area. Grand Floridian surrounds this beautiful pool, Palm Tree lined. And then you have the
beach area, which is where the incident took place. And as your colleague mentioned earlier, it was under the stars movie night, they call it.
[19:15:05] They are showing "Zootopia." All the folks were beginning to gather, all the guests. It went from 20, to 30, to 40 guests.
The Disney folks have the cones, but they were allowing folks to sort of gather.
Then it got to a point where there were so many and everyone was talking to each other and it was really beginning to gather and everyone
knew what was going on because of social media. Disney folks began asking people to move along and not congregate and go to their rooms.
They would not say, they could not talk about what was happening, but everyone clearly knew when the chopper was circulating over the head of the
lagoon and then over the Floridian, it just kept circling with its searchlight. I head to the back of the hotel, and there were two boats as
well, and they were also searching. It was quite a scene.
PINSKY: Ramon, it is just heartbreaking. I have on the phone Katie Casey. She is a coworker of the child`s father. Katie, thank you for
joining us.
KATIE CASEY, FATHER`S CO-WORKER (via phone): Thank you.
PINSKY: Will you please send your coworker the deepest, deepest -- I do not have words. We do not have words, but as much support as we can
possibly throw of his way. And tell him please, please do not listen to the nonsense on social media. The trolls and the mob. They do not exist.
They are not human.
CASEY: Yes. Exactly. The only social media stuff that I have seen is when I got Op-Eds from the news. I would see people words on there. I
tried not to look at anything else because I was just furious all day at work. Because it is like you are bullying a family that had the worst
thing possible happened to him, and that in no way was it his fault at all.
I have been there five times in the past five years. I have walked along that same beach area. There is no signs. I still love Disney World,
but there is no reason to bully him. Quit dishing out ways to blame and just pray for the family --
PINSKY: Katie. Katie, did you know the little boy?
CASEY: No, I did not. I worked with him, and I have seen him, like, at picnics. He was only two, so maybe once. And our picnic is actually
coming up in a couple weeks, so unfortunately he cannot go. And people are bullying the family instead of being sad and giving them sympathy. I am
just -- like my heart is pounding.
PINSKY: Yes. My heart is breaking. And, again, I am spending a lot of time being angry about what is going on in Orlando these days, and this
only has added to my feelings. And I just hope you can communicate to the family that that is not -- those are not people worth paying attention to.
AnneElise, you wanted to say something?
GOETZ: I just do not understand, Dr. Drew, when we as a society have decided that accidents do not happen anymore, and we have lost all at --
PINSKY: Well, AnneElise, I am sorry, but you know where that got indoctrinated.
GOETZ: No. It is not the attorneys. The attorneys, they respond. We may respond to it, but when you look at what is happening in social
media, that is not attorney driven.
PINSKY: No. That is not.
GOETZ: When you look at what happened with the gorilla mom --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: -- everyone wants to find a bad guy. Nobody can say, this is a horrible, horrible thing.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: And how about some empathy for the individuals that are going through it?
PINSKY: Yes. Spirit, I see it all the time, the same kind of phenomenon when people get a medical illness. They go, "How did this
happen?" There is ordinary misery in life. Accidents happen and bad things happen.
SPIRIT: Listen. You know I love you, but I just do not agree here with you. And I do not know if it is the Orlando thing and it has us
sensitive here, but I think there is some projection, Dr. Drew.
I can empathize and feel horrible that this family lost their child, but if we were at the beach, and I am swimming in the water and I get
bitten by a shark, you can feel bad that I got bit by a shark, but you cannot take away the fact that I chose to go swimming at the beach. And I
even heard -- and God bless the coworker, Dr. Drew, but you heard her say - -
PINSKY: But Spirit, how far are you going to pull that back? How far are you going to roll that back?
SPIRIT: But listen --
PINSKY: You chose to get out of bed that day, too.
SPIRIT: Come on, she pulled it all the way too, Dr. Drew. They were at the happiest place on earth. We got to stop buying into the fairy tale
that life is safety.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
SPIRIT: This is not the way that it works. It is not the reality, so we have to be responsible for our choices, and we have to think
consequences. We just cannot get caught up in the nostalgia of what feels good. And we can empathize that they lost their child, but we have to deal
with the consequences, and that is a reality.
PINSKY: All right. Let us emphasize. How do we help them? Let us empathize with them. How do we help with the guilt and the misery that
this family is in?
SPIRIT: Oh my gosh, Dr. Drew, you know that this is going to be a lifetime of pain.
PINSKY: Yes, it is.
SPIRIT: All the therapy in the world will only help to ease it, but they will always question and second-guess the decision that they made on
that night.
SPIRIT: Yes. Yes. I would have trouble -- I have never had suicidal thoughts, really, maybe faintly. I think a lot of us do occasionally in
our life. This would generate those kinds of feelings. There is no doubt in my mind.
[19:20:00] SPIRIT: This will replay for that father forever.
PINSKY: Ramon, you wanted to say something here?
ESCOBAR: Yes. I mean, I saw the mom. I witnessed the mom and her family. OK? I witnessed it. And I will tell you right now, this is the
type of memory that you do not want to have. To see a mom keel over on the ground and just lose it for not one, not five, but like 20 minutes, 30
minutes, just sobbing inconsolably, OK?
And so this is the type of thing -- I understand what you are saying, but going back out and seeing those signs, the sign says "No swimming,
please." That is what it says. That is all it says. And they found five gators. OK?
"No swimming, please" is what the sign says. It does not say no wading. And look, we all know Disney. It is a fantastic place. But if
Disney did not want you to wade, they make sure you do not wade. OK?
PINSKY: Ramon, let me interrupt you. I know where you are going. Let me interrupt real quick. Evan, are there any bodies of water bigger
than a toilet in particularly in central and southern Florida that alligators do not get into?
ANTIN: I mean, they are pretty much all over the state, for the most part. I mean there is some small bodies of water that might not have many
individuals, but they are pretty competitive and their populations are doing really well. And so and that being the case, the younger, smaller
guys have to migrate and find new places to go, and that means other smaller bodies of water, yes.
PINSKY: Spirit, back to taking responsibility. Congratulations, everyone. This was an endangered species a few years ago. Now, there are
a million alligators in Florida and we have impinged upon their land, literally. And we have to co-exist with them.
We have to plan accordingly. If we travel to places like Florida, we have to keep in our head where we are going. And I will tell you what, I
have been there many times, I never thought about it.
ANTIN: Yes.
PINSKY: It could happen to me. Evan.
ANTIN: When you go to Florida and you go to the southern states, you just got to keep that in mind. Technically, if alligators are native to
this area and you do not know and you are going to water body what kind of animals are in there and how deep the water is, that sort of thing, I mean
just play it safe, just do not go in if it is a natural water body that might have gators.
PINSKY: Yes. I have been in those lagoons at Disney World. I have not been in that one, but I think it was connected to the same one and it
never would have occurred to me.
Next up, Orlando`s nightclub massacre, could have been prevented by the killer`s wife. Sources say she knew about his evil intent, but what in
fact did she know.
And later, more outrage directed at the judge who sentence the Stanford rapist to only six months in jail. I have new details and new
backlash. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1) (voice-over): New information on the terror attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2) (voice-over): We know that the wife is now a focus of this investigation because she has told them -- she is
cooperating, she told them she knew he was thinking about some sort of jihadist attack. She told them that she dissuaded him. She also told them
she went with him to some of these potential targets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3) (voice-over): Does this make her an accomplice?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This woman, in my opinion, is guilty of a crime. Am I wrong here?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Dr. Drew, morally, absolutely she is liable. Who is going to talk a radicalist out of doing
something like this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Forget talk him out. Hello, Orlando Police, St. Lucia Police, I have a guy who wants to kill people on my end.
AZARI: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What did Omar Mateen`s current wife know and when did she know it? And what about the father who has expressed not just sympathy,
but enthusiasm for the Taliban who says his son is a good boy. Is he at least partially responsible for the son`s disgusting behavior? Back with
AnneElise Goetz, Attorney; Psychotherapist, Spirit. Joining us, Steve Moore, retired FBI Agent and CNN Correspondent, Drew Griffin. Drew, what
is the latest in the investigation?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This afternoon we have learned that from investigative sources that the U.S. attorney in central Florida is
preparing to bring the evidence before a grand jury as the investigation continues against the wife, Noor Salman, to find out exactly what you said,
Dr. Drew, what she knew and what she potentially knew and did not tell anyone before that attack.
Also within the last 24 hours, the investigation into her husband has made a pretty big turn. They are focusing now on his sexual preferences,
if you will. We now know that he did visit gay dating, chat and web sites, that he apparently reached out to transgender people, that the FBI is
seeking or is already interviewing some of those people.
We also know that he was friendly, according to a bar owner, a second gay bar owner. He was friendly with that gay bar owner. They are looking
into that. And of course we now know he was a regular at the Pulse nightclub.
And then there is one more piece of the puzzle, which is just more puzzling than anything else. Two weeks before the shooting, this man, this
killer, donated blood on May 29th at the same center where one of his victims was working.
PINSKY: Oh, my God, that is awful. Thank you, Drew. Spirit, stay with me on this. I think there is way too much of this idea that this is
some sort of what we call reaction formation where somebody has disavowed a part of themselves they projected hatred towards. Look, this guy, was
probably -- Give me one man who he has had a relationship with, then he is gay. Otherwise, he is looking for targets.
SPIRIT: Oh, no, come on, Dr. Drew. I thought tonight surely we could agree on this.
PINSKY: Spirit. Wait, wait, Spirit.
SPIRIT: No.
PINSKY: Wait, wait. Did you hear what his explanation --
SPIRIT: Sexual preference --
PINSKY: Wait a minute. For three hours in the bathroom of the club, he repeatedly told people what his motivation was. Jihad --
[19:30:00] SPIRIT: Yes, I get that.
PINSKY: Yes. Not that he is angry --
SPIRIT: I get that.
PINSKY: He is not angry at gay people.
SPIRIT: Right.
PINSKY: He just wanted to kill people and make the point.
SPIRIT: Because that would be too easy, Dr. Drew, to come out and say, "Listen, I am gay and I am struggling with that, and so since I hate a
part of myself, then I want to take everybody else out."
You know that this is a plausible thing that needs to be looked at here. And I do not care if he never had sex with a single male. It does
not mean that he did not have the attraction there and possibly the struggle that he did not want to have that happen.
PINSKY: OK. Steve. Steve.
SPIRIT: Think about the messages from dad and this.
PINSKY: I understand. I understand -- and God only knows what dad really rained down on this guy. Steve, do you have any sense of that?
SPIRIT: Exactly.
PINSKY: I sense he was -- he wanted to stop the bombing in his country? When was he in his country? Was he ever in Afghanistan? The dad
indoctrinated in him and what the web sites radicalized.
STEVE MOORE, SPECIAL AGENT, FBI, RETIRED: I think you are right on that. I do not think it precludes him having some kind of psychological
issue where he hides part of his life. And what the FBI is not talking about is anything else that they found on his computers, because frankly,
there may be other things.
He does not have to necessarily have hooked up with a man. They could possibly find some type of pornography on his computer that would
kind of cement whether that was his bent.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.
MOORE: And if they do not, then it is an indication that it was just casing.
PINSKY: Casing. Casing, that is the word. Now, AnneElise, the wife admitted going with him to buy ammunition, going on scouting trips with
this maniac, and to knowing he intended or at least was discussing carrying out Jihadi attack. She denies a specific plan.
Now, if that is not liability or accomplice, I do not know what is. Now, however, to me there would be a little bit of sympathy in that even if
she told the police and they did not do anything, God help what might have happened to her, right?
GOETZ: Right. She might not have been talking, because out of the fear of safety of herself and her child. We do not know to what extent she
was aware when she went to these locations that there was scouting going on.
From what I understand, she drops him off at a club, there was a shopping center. That might not have raised a red flag for her. Yes, she
might have gone to a shopping center with her husband, but that is a very different thing from scouting for a terrorist activity. But --
PINSKY: Do you think she can get a liability? She can get arrested?
GOETZ: I think that there is -- we need more information.
PINSKY: All right.
GOETZ: The fact that they are bringing a grand jury investigation, I think tat they have more than they are telling us, but it is interesting
how much she is cooperating. And in my opinion, not as an attorney, but as a citizen and someone that is very concerned right now with the safety of
myself and my family in this country, I want her to feel open to discuss with the FBI what she knows, any kind of connections that her husband may
have to other people, any kind of more conspiracy behind her.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: Because I have not heard anything with her that I thought -- that makes me think, well she is a danger. But any kind of connections
that her husband might have had with other people, I want her talking about that. I want those lines of communication open.
PINSKY: Now, I spoke to survivor, one of the survivors. Her name is Patience Carter from her hospital bed. She had been trapped in the
bathroom at the Pulse bar, as I told you, with that shooter. Patience told me about what the shooter was his motive. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATIENCE CARTER, ORLANDO SHOOTING SURVIVOR: In his own 911 phone call, he made a statement about him wanting America to stop bombing his
country and was pledging his allegiance to ISIS and speaking Arabic.
And then he even spoke directly to us in the bathroom, still. He asked us like, "Are there any black people in here?" And there was an
African-American male in the bathroom stall with me, who responded to him and saying that, "Yes, there is about six to seven of us in here."
And he responded back to the African-American male saying that, "You know, I do not have a problem with black people. You guys suffered enough
in this country, but this is for my country"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And then I will remind you what he did next is he put his gun over the top of the stalls and started shooting indiscriminately and
killing people.
Next -- I have zero for this guy. Zero. I am sorry. There is a place for anger here. There is a place for it.
Next up, CNN`s Don Lemon interviewed the killer`s ex-wife. He joins me exclusively with details. That is next.
And later, did the Stanford rapist take photos of the victim and her naked breast and then shared them on social media, cell phone evidence
suggest he did just that. We will be right back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HANSEN, INSIDE NIGHTCLUB WHEN GUNMAN OPENED FIRE: It was like bang, bang. And when I looked over and noticed people were falling and
people were screaming and then they were yelling. There is blood spattering and glasses were breaking from the bar. It was just -- it was a
horrific scene
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANETTE MCCOY, ORLANDO SHOOTING SURVIVOR: The shots were just automatic. It was just -- the sound of it, just boom, boom, boom, boom,
boom, so many bullets just flying by so fast. Debris starts breaking. There is glass everywhere. The people who were in there bleeding to death.
The question of why, why am I here, and why they are not?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with retired FBI Agent, Steve Moore; Attorney, AnneElise Goetz; Psychotherapist, Spirit. And on the phone, I have CNN Anchor Don
Lemon. Don, you spoke to Mateen`s ex-wife, Sitora, about the abuse she had suffered, as well as whether she suspected he was gay. What did she say?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR (via phone): She said a lot in the amount of time that we had. She said, "I am going to be quite honest with you, Don.
Yes, I do think that he might have been gay." And she said that he had some -- I asked if he had homosexual tendencies, and she said, "Yes. I am
not going to lie, I think that he did."
And she went on to explain why about him going out to the club and things that he did, selfies and that sort of things, not that straight guys
do not do that. But in her estimation, for whatever reason, she was his wife and in her experience she thought that he might be gay.
[19:40:08] INSKY: I am going to show some tape on that. We have here Don, actually, asking for examples of signals that this might be the
case. Here is how she answered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SITORA YUSUFIY, MATEEN`S EX-WIFE: It was the way that he would behave that normal straight men would not. And he was very -- he loved to
look at himself. He loved to take pictures of himself, which some straight men do, too, but to a certain extent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Don, how about the father? To me these women are -- you know, they were objects of domestic violence, they were in these of a
controlling relationships. I have mostly sympathy for these women. But that father, I am deeply troubled by him.
LEMON: I am, too. I had a long conversation with him. And as a matter of fact, I got to see him in his environment, because as we were
there, he was doing interviews with one -- I think he was doing it in his language, which is, I think, Darcy -- Pacifica, I m sorry.
So I got to see him sort of interact with people, and how he interacts around his home. So I thought that, quite honestly, and I know
he did not do it, and to a certain extent he is in shock. I think he is a bit delusional about what his son may have picked up from him and from
religion.
And I think as parents, parents are responsible for their kids` behaviors and upbringing, and I think he had an influence on his child,
whether he wants to admit it or not, that led him to maybe in some way not realize his full potential as a person, possibly a gay man.
PINSKY: Yes. So in other words, he was expressing some hatred towards homosexuals, and the kid was unable to express himself because of
that.
LEMON: Yes.
PINSKY: But also, how about the hatred towards everybody and the idea of him being a protector of his country. His dad was not just a Taliban
sympathist, he was a Taliban enthusiast.
LEMON: Yes.
PINSKY: Are not we going to --
LEMON: He says he was not, you know, he was not a Taliban. He said that is all a misconception.
PINSKY: We have quotes.
LEMON: I know.
PINSKY: People wrote me quotes on the things he said. They are unmistakably enthusiastic.
LEMON: So that is when I said delusional.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
LEMON: Because he contradicts himself. And if you look at the particular people, his son, you know, claimed sympathy for -- there are
groups that have different ideologies.
PINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: Because, you know, I am part of this group and that it has a different ideology from being an ISIS fighter. So his father had that
confusion as well. And then that the de facto sort of leader of the Afghan in exile or something like that, which he really could not explain to me.
PINSKY: Yes. OK. So we have mental illness all the way around, possibly. What I do not understand is how we cannot intervene on this. I
do not understand it. You are not free to have behaviors that endanger the community, you just are not.
Listen, Don, I appreciate you joining me. I want to go ahead and read something the shooter`s father had just said. Quote, "If the owner of
this club knew that 300 people are coming, or 400, they should have had the best security. If there was security, this tragedy would not have
happened." Yes, go ahead Anneelise. Go ahead.
GOETZ: That is the first time I have seen that quote, and it took my breath away. I cannot believe this guy is blaming the nightclub --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: -- when it was his son that came in and killed, massacred all of those people.
PINSKY: His son with an automatic weapon.
GOETZ: That disconnection is amazing to me.
PINSKY: Yes. Steve, help us with this. What the hell?
MOORE: If we understood them, then they would be normal. This is a deviant mind. We do not understand that kind of thought process, which
says a lot about you and your guests here, because you do not understand it. It is when you have to crawl into the mud to understand them that you
know it is really bad.
PINSKY: Spirit, it is not all just mental illness, though. It is --
MOORE: I do not mean mental illness.
PINSKY: I understand. I understand, but Spirit and I see -- and Don kept saying delusion, but this is more than that. People with mental
illness do not typically engage in these behaviors.
SPIRIT: There you go, Dr. Drew, and I am so glad you that differentiated, because I am sure that there are people who have bona fide
mental illnesses who do not want to be lumped into this category with these people.
PINSKY: That is right.
SPIRIT: These is people who have something that is unfathomable by the normal, healthy mind.
PINSKY: Right.
SPIRIT: But these are not just people who believe in one direction here.
PINSKY: And Spirit, I would even argue most people -- the vast majority of people with a vast array of mental illnesses would not be able
to relate to this kind of thing.
SPIRIT: No.
PINSKY: This is other. This is something else.
SPIRIT: By the way, this is something we can carry on.
[19:45:00] PINSKY: But I am going to say something. I hate his kind of thinking. I hate this kind of behavior, and I think hate has a
place here. It is OK to hate this behavior. It is OK to be angry.
Next up, the controversial judge in the Stanford rape case has potential jurors so enraged, they are refusing to sit in his courtroom.
That is up next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart and had been penetrated by a foreign object.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This judge ignored her feelings and I am outraged by it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I want him off the bench.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BLOOM, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: He gave him a six month sentence. He is getting six months in jail for raping a girl in a rape so appalling
that two of his fellow students had to pull him off of her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:50:00] PINSKY: Major backlash against the judge who sentenced Brock Turner, who is nearly six months in jail. Jurors are now refusing to
take part in cases he has presided over. And now a DA got him removed from a new sexual assault case.
Back with AnneElise, Spirit and joining us Bradford Cohen, Criminal Defense Attorney. Bradford, should people in social media be able to
determine the behavior of someone on the bench?
BRADFORD COHEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I think -- listen, in a way, yes. But I think in this case, it is very dangerous to put your
mindset into the mindset of the judge. You do not know what he was thinking when he made that sentence. You have no idea what he did when he
waited.
There was a probation officer that also made a recommendation of a county jail sentence followed by probation. There is a lot of things that
go into sentencing. So you know, I had sentences before that I felt were excessive and illegal, and I have appealed those and I have won.
So if you feel that it sentence something that is illegal, which I do not believe this was an illegal sentence, then you can appeal it. If it is
within his sentencing guidelines, you cannot replace your judgment for the judgment of the judge.
PINSKY: All right.
COHEN: He is a very experienced guy.
PINSKY: But Bradford, that is what is bugging people. I will go to AnneElise. That is what bothering people that this guy, overly identified
with that family and that mom has sent this kid home with the mom at the expense of the victim. And by the way, a very unfair sort of sentencing
given how, perhaps, people he did not identify with might have received a heavier sentence.
GOETZ: Right, Dr. Drew and it is a concern when we look at people on the bench that seem to not understand the rape culture that we are in, in
this country right now. And that is what it felt like, that is what people are responding to, this idea of, you do not understand the seriousness of
this crime and you are letting -- you are letting the student off easy, the criminal off easy because you do not think it was that big of a deal.
PINSKY: Because he identified with him.
GOETZ: He identifies.
PINSKY: Yes. Police looked through Brock Turner`s phone immediately after the attack, and here is what was stated in court documents.
Detectives noticed a text message in the, quote, "Group Me" application that appeared on the defendant screen. It stated whose -- worst word,
breasts are those.
But when detectives got a search warrant for the phone, all the pics and texts had been deleted. So Spirit, it looks like he may have taken a
picture of this woman, unconscious naked, and then sent them out to his friends.
SPIRIT: Yes. And why does that surprise us here? This is the same young man that got a slap on the wrist who decided that he was going to
appeal. This is the same young man whose father said it was 20 minutes of action and his son should not have to pay for the rest of his life. And
all of his family members rallied behind him.
But I really think here Dr. Drew that this is an example of how many people are out of touch in what happens in the legal system. We know all
day, every day, that judges give sentences based upon how they align with these victims and these defendants. It happens every day in America.
PINSKY: Is that true, attorneys?
SPIRIT: It is not just one more horrible event.
GOETZ: I do not think so. I do not think that is something you usually see.
SPIRIT: I am sure it is not, though.
PINSKY: All right. OK.
GOETZ: I think it is a unique situation. And the key here, the other attorney on the program also points out, Bradford, I believe his name is -
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: -- also pointed out that it was within the sentencing guidelines, and he followed the recommendation of a probation officer. I
hate this sentence. I hate it.
SPIRIT: So do I.
GOETZ: But I do not think it is grounds to pull him from the bench.
PINSKY: All right. We have to take a break.
GOETZ: Interestingly, attorneys are kind of doing it themselves.
COHEN: I agree 100 percent.
PINSKY: All right. We have to take a break.
COHEN: I agree 100 percent. You cannot pull him from the bench for it.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, the Stanford rapist`s ex-girlfriend hands a letter of support. We will share her sort of shocking words, right
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking about the Stanford athlete who raped an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A judge then sentenced him to six
months. I am back with AnneElise, Spirit and Bradford.
Now, his ex-girlfriend -- Brock`s ex-girlfriend, who he dated in high school wrote a letter to the judge on his behalf. Here is part of it.
Quote, "He never once pressured me into a situation or any decision I did not feel true to myself."
Then goes on to say, quote, "I have never been so angry with God in all my life for instilling such pain to an undeserving soul." And
Bradford, that is some of the data he used to mitigate the sentence, correct?
COHEN: Yes, of course. He looked at everything. I mean that dad`s letter is horrible. The dad`s letter is idiotic.
PINSKY: You mean talking about the 20 minutes of action is not worth jail time?
COHEN: Absolutely. It is one of the dumbest things I have ever read in a letter. I cannot even imagine a father putting that in a letter, even
if you love your kid to death.
PINSKY: Does not the attorney review the letter before it get sent in?
COHEN: You would think. Dr. Drew, if I saw a letter like that, I would burn it. It is the worst thing I have ever seen, the worst thing I
have ever read. That being said, I think he took in a lot of things into consideration.
But something I want to stress is, you know, I have a lot of clients that get over sentenced, that get sentenced to too much time. African-
Americans that I represent that I see get double what other people get. I do not see the outrage that I see here. I love to see it as an outrage for
sentencing the other way.
PINSKY: But Spirit, is not that what the outrage is? In the juxtaposition of the over sentencing and now this under sentencing with
identification, people are outraged.
SPIRIT: Well, it is a certain group of people who are outraged, Dr. Drew. And I get it, because you are talking rape culture. This is
something that has to be dealt with. But on the other end of this, when you talk about the disparities that exist between sentencing, that is a
real issue that has to be looked at.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you panel. Good job. We thank you all. AnneElise, give me five seconds. Go ahead. Try it.
GOETZ: 5 seconds. I assume that the undeserving soul that she mentioned in that letter was the woman that was raped and not the ex-
boyfriend.
PINSKY: I think she meant her ex-boyfriend. The undeserving souls with what we are concerned presently. Nancy Grace comes up next.
[20:00:00] END.
END
