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Dr. Drew
Ben Affleck Dropped 19 F-Bombs In A 5-Minute TV Tirade; Ben Affleck Speaking Out Tonight About His Television Rant In Which He Cursed A Lot; Angelika Graswald, The New Jodi Arias; Damning Statements Allegedly Made By Angelika Graswald Just A Few Days After Her Fiance`s Death; The Mother Who Was Arrested After Disciplining Her Sons For Breaking And Entering
Aired June 23, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:17] [BEGIN VIDEOTAPE]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER [voice-over]: Tonight Batman lets it rip.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
BEN AFFLECK, AMERICAN ACTOR: Deflategate is the ultimate [EXPLETIVE WORD] outrage of sports ever. It is so [EXPLETIVE WORD] stupid.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
UNDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER [voice-over]: Ben Affleck dropped 19 F-bombs in a 5-minute T.V. tirade.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
AFFLECK: Maybe Tom Brady is so [EXPLETIVE WORD] classy, and such a [EXPLETIVE WORD] gentleman.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER [voice-over]: What is up with the super hero film star? Was he just fired up, as the host of the show claims?
Plus, is this woman the new Jodi Arias? She is accused of drowning her fiance by sabotaging his kayak. Was kinky sex the motive for murder?
[END VIDEOTAPE]
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: And breaking news, Ben Affleck speaking out tonight about his television rant in which he cursed a
lot. It appeared to some people to have slurred his words through and out the interview. What do you think? Take a look.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER [voice-over]: Ben Affleck`s epic rant on the Deflategate scandal.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
BEN AFFLECK, AMERICAN ACTOR: Deflategate is the ultimate [EXPLETIVE WORD] outrage of sports ever.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ben was, I guess, on the premier of Bill Simmons` new HBO show, "Any Given Wednesday."
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
AFFLECK: Maybe Tom Brady is so [EXPLETIVE WORD] classy and such a [EXPLETIVE WORD].
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He is a native Bostonian as you know and trending because of his passionate rant about the infamous Deflategate
saga.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
AFFLECK: You realize that they gave him a suspension for a quarter of the regular season, which will be equivalent of suspending a baseball player
for 40 [EXPLETIVE WORD] games.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANCHOR: And another thing! I was not that bad as batman! All right?
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I am going to give, you know, Ben the benefit of the doubt here and just chalk it up to him being a huge sports nut.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: And joining us, Keltie Knight, Correspondent with "The Insider"; Mike Catherwood, Television and radio host and Evan "Bullet" James, Extreme
Alcohol and Drug Interventionist, star of A&Es "Extractors." Now, this is how the interview began on HBO`s "Any Given Wednesday With Bill Simmons."
Have a look.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
AFFLECK: Deflategate --
BILL SIMMONS, HBO TALK SHOW HOST: Is this the ultimate Boston sports story that ever could have happened, us against us them?
AFFLECK: Deflategate is the ultimate [EXPLETIVE WORD] sports outrage of sports ever. It is so [EXPLETIVE WORD] stupid that I cannot -- you
realized that they gave him a suspension for a quarter of the regular season, which would be equivalent of suspending a baseball for 40
[EXPLETIVE WORD] games.
SIMMONS: Yes.
AFFLECK: 44 days, to be exact, which is what they do when you get busted taking steroids.
SIMMONS: Right.
PINSKY: Bullet, what do you think is going on here?
EVAN "BULLET" JAMES, EXTREME ALCOHOL AND DRUG INTERVENTIONIST: Dr. Drew, I mean, I respect Ben Affleck tremendously as an artist, as his politics, but
I feel he is drunk. I mean, listen to the way he is talking. Listen to how slurred his words are.
He is so belligerent. I understand being passionate about sports, but I worked at the betty ford center. If he came sat at our desk and after the
interview with him, I talked to another counselor, the first thing I would say is, "The guy is drunk."
PINSKY: Mike, do you agree?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, T.V., RADIO HOST: I do not know. I mean, it is hard to make that assessment. I am not like a professional in the field like Evan
is. But I think that what you are seeing is two Massachusetts natives doing what they do best, and that is cursing and talking about Boston
sports.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, I do not know about you, but I have never seen somebody who comes out of south and using the F-bomb. I have never seen
that.
CATHERWOOD: Right. Is not that part of the Boston accent?
PINSKY: It is how -- it is a comma, in fact. Or maybe, you know, way of underlying something. Ben Affleck addressed the controversy in two tweets
today. He said, first, quote, "Those of you, who keep score at home. I gave exactly 18 F`s about my Pats. Upon reflection, 12 probably would have
been sufficient."
Then he said, "We Boston fans have always been known for our subtlety. One of my favorite interviews. Hope you get to see the entire episode
#GoPats." Too many, Mike?
CATHERWOOD: No. No. Listen. We -- constantly, when I say we, I mean the royal we, society, we are begging for A-list stars to be more real. To cut
down that facade that they put up in front of themselves in order to make their image look shiny and squeaky clean.
Ben Affleck, clearly, a very passionate Boston sports fan, which is the only type of Boston`s sports fan. They only come in belligerent. That is
the only way they come. And he was -- in my opinion, delivering a great interview because I would much rather watch that than anything on T.V.,
where you are interviewing an A-list star. Yes, 19 F-bombs.
And there was times when he was a little bit slurry but I am being told by my people on the inside that he just went through a marathon of watching
Ben Affleck movies and he was a little bit woozy.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: Keltie, bring us update on what the rumors are right there on the street. Because from my opinion, look, if I miss a few hours
of sleep I get slurry. I am not a young man anymore. That is what happens or maybe traveling the night before, or who the heck knows. What are you
hearing?
KELTIE KNIGHT, CORRESPONDENT, THE INSIDER: I think people are concerned because this is another step in Ben`s sort of fall from grace. Remember a
lot of people think that his addiction issues lead to his divorce from Jennifer Garner. There were stories of infidelity throughout his marriage.
There was the secret affair with the nanny, there was the new and very questionable, in my opinion, back tattoo.
And of course, the sort of failure of Batman versus Superman. It was considered a bomb by Hollywood standards. The movie still brought in about
$800 million worldwide. It was expected to be in the billions.
And then, of course, from that came the ever famous sad Affleck video, where he was shown sort of in this interview, realizing for the first time
that his movie maybe was not that good.
That video has been viewed over 15 million times online. And in the middle of all of this, you guys, he is back filming back as batman filming
"Justice League." So it just kind of feels like, yes, maybe it was a rant but also maybe this is the continuation of his fall from grace.
CATHERWOOD: Is he filming "Justice Buffet," by the way? What is going on with the jowls there?
PINSKY: Do we have to pile on this poor guy? I mean, guy has got a public life. He has gone through a lot of stress this year. He lost his family.
The poor guy. Layoff, everybody!
CATHERWOOD: You are right, Drew, but at the same time he has brought a lot of this on himself. It is funny --
PINSKY: Why, because he has an illness, because he has addiction?
CATHERWOOD: Hey, listen, I am an addict. I am an addict.
PINSKY: I understand that.
CATHERWOOD: You know, what I do not do? I do not put up videos and pictures on Instagram pictures of my nanny wearing Tom Brady`s Super Bowl
ring on his private plane, as I am going balls deep in earth, you know, while my wife and kids are back at home, waiting for me to get back.
PINSKY: Bullet, help me. I mean, Evan, help settle the score here. Let us say, he is drunk. It is nobody`s business.
JAMES: Well, it is nobody`s business, but we are talking about somebody who has a history of alcoholism and addiction, and he comes on T.V. When I
have heard him on Bill Maher where he has been very concise in his words. He has been just as passionate about what he is saying, but he has not been
slurring his speech. He has not been belligerent.
He looked a little puffy, not that I do not look puffy sometimes from eating too much, but I am just saying that Ben Affleck that we have become
accustomed to and how he has communicated in the past does not seem like the Ben Affleck that was -- and I understand sports passion.
PINSKY: Yes.
JAMES: Absolutely that could play a part of it. But it seems like he knocked down some drinks of Jose Cuervo or Jack Daniels before he came on
the air and he had a real talk with bill Simmons.
PINSKY: And of course, we cannot -- we have no knowledge of any of this. We cannot substantiate any of it. But, Keltie, I just say, please,
everybody, let the guy live his life. Why the piling on? So he is a passionate sports fan. He has struggled with a condition. Maybe it is
active. Maybe it is not. Why is it any -- why make it worse? Why do not people have compassion?
KNIGHT: Well, listen, in Hollywood, we love the upswing and then we really love to tear our stars apart. And so, unfortunately, he is just underneath
the boot of the Hollywood tabloid news right now.
But guys, I also want to remind you that it is very well known, and he has talked about it before that his father struggled with addiction from
alcohol and gambling as well, so this is nothing new in his family.
PINSKY: No. But Keltie, he was -- he has been admitted for treatment, correct, in the past?
KNIGHT: Right.
PINSKY: Yes.
KNIGHT: 2001.
PINSKY: Right. Now, if you have been admitted for treatment, if you meet criteria for admission, by law, you have to be an addict or be discharged
within 48 hours if you have end up not meeting that criteria.
So by definition, if you went to a treatment, you meet criteria for addiction, or that program gets shut down. Now, the program he went to did
not get shut down. I just -- I just -- let me show you more of what that interview from "Any Given Sunday With Bill Simmons."
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)]
AFFLECK: You want to give a guy, because he does not give you his cell phone as a punishment? I would never give up an organization as leak prone
as the NFL my [EXPLETIVE WORD] cell phone, so you can just look through my e-mails.
What they did was suspend Tom Brady for four days for not giving him his [ EXPLETIVE WORD] cell phone. That is having a friend who called himself,
"The Deflator." If I got in trouble for all the things that my friends called themselves, I would be finished.
We have not done anything to address this crisis in domestic violence in the NFL but the [EXPLETIVE WORD] football, better not be 8 percent lighter.
And if you find out it is, you are gone for four games!
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: Keltie put her finger on the issue, precisely. We, the audience, love to build people up and tear them down like a mob, like a mob that is
going for some sort of human sacrifice. That is on us not on him! That is our primitive nature. We need to look at ourselves in the mirror, leave
this guy alone.
Next up. Is this woman the Jodi Arias of the present? Police say she pulled the plug on her own fiance`s kayak causing him to drown.
And still to come, abusive mom or responsible parent. She admits she beat her sons with a cable cord, because they broke into neighbor`s house. Back
after this.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:10:00] [COMMERCIAL BREAK]
[BEGIN VIDEOTAPE]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER [voice-over]: The 35-year-old plead not guilty to second-degree murder and manslaughter in the death of her
fiancee, Vincent Viafore. Police say, Graswald called 911, telling officers Viafore` kayak capsized. She tried to save him but fell into the
water as well.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
ANGELIKA GRASWALD, ACCUSED OF KILLING VIAFORE: I saw him struggling a little bit. He was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Investigators say Graswald admitted to them that she tampered with Viafore`s kayak, so he capsized.
[END VIDEOTAPE]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The indictment alleges that as Viafore reached for his paddle to save his life, Graswald pulled it away.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEOCLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This interrogation tape obtained by ABC`s "20/20"shows Graswald doing yoga. Near the end she makes a startling
statement.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: Angelika, what is the true answer to the question?
GRASWALD: All right. I will give you the [EXPLETIVE WORD] statement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: What is it?
[19:15:00] GRASWALD: I wanted him dead and now he is gone. And I am OK with it.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: Damning statements allegedly made by Angelika Graswald just a few days after her fiance`s death. And there is new information about what we
did not see in those interrogation tapes.
Joining me, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Attorney, Of Council to the Cochran Firm; Troy Slaten, Attorney; Casey Jordan, CNN Contributor and criminologist and
the host of "Wives of Knives" on Investigation Discovery.
So, let us go through the details revealed in court. This is a few days after her fiance`s death. She went back to the island, invited the
detectives to come along for a memorial while they were there. The detective said she admitted to pulling the plug because she, quote, "Wanted
to be free of his sexual demands."
Told the detective, he was cute, trying to give him a gift card and a handmade figurine. Two hours into the interrogation, she comes back from
the bathroom and tells the detectives she may have had a miscarriage during the interrogation.
And then during the interrogation she asked, "Who is Miranda? What is Miranda?" Now, Casey, help me with this case. She did tell more damning
things I will review in a minute, but this woman seems bizarre at least.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes. And the whole coming back two hours later and going, "Who is Miranda?" Not, what is Miranda? I
mean, she is originally from Latvia. Let us be clear, but I think she has a perfect command of the English language.
And I would call that just quite simply disingenuous on steroids. She is intentionally confused, because I think she realizes that she has been
straight talking with this cop that she thinks is so cute, and she just is beginning to realize that she is saying things that are going to get her
into trouble. So she is back pedaling by acting instead of saying I want a lawyer, she now is acting bizarre. And all of that yoga on camera reminds
me very much of Ms. Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Oh my God.
JORDAN: She is doing same thing. Yes, right?
PINSKY: And, listen, and not just the bizarre behavior that we are watching, but the character structure, the personality structure. As it is
beginning to unfold -- it even may be more primitive than Jodi.
JORDAN: Yes. And I think she is just completely self-absorbed. The biggest challenge here is going to be that the most damning thing she said
worst to the cop and it was not on the tape. It was out at the island.
And that is the challenge that the prosecutor has. The most damning stuff she said about unscrewing that plug, we do not have any proof that she
actually said that. It is her word against the cops.
PINSKY: Let me show you part of the interrogation, where she describes how she felt when she saw her fiance struggling in the water. This now from
ABC`s "20/20."
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: When you lost him in the water, was a part of you saying, "My worries are going away now, and I am free."?
GRASWALD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: And were you almost --
GRASWALD: Euphoric?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: Euphoric that he was going to be gone?
GRASWALD: I just -- I was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: You felt that way?
GRASWALD: Yes. I still do.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: Troy, the defense wants these tapes thrown out. How do they do that?
TROY SLATEN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, they file a motion to suppress evidence. They say that the statements that she gave were not with the
benefit of a knowing, intelligent waiver of her Miranda rights. Now, I think that is really going to fall flat here. She does understand the
English language, and she made this confession.
Yes, it was an 11-hour interrogation or interview with the cops like to call it, but she admitted to wanting him dead. And the statement that she
gave out on the island, it does not matter that it was not recorded. She said it to a police officer and at that point, Miranda may not be
implicated, because it was a consensual encounter.
PINSKY: OK. Well, let me get my defense attorney in here. OK.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Yes.
PINSKY: Ms. Defense Attorney, let us have at it.
SEDAGHATFAR: I actually agreed with Troy, if you can believe this, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Something is terrible with your mic. I got to tell you. Is everyone else hearing that?
SEDAGHATFAR: Can you hear me OK?
PINSKY: Go ahead. Try that.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: There you go.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, I think, basically the prosecution better pray that this tape, this confession comes in, Dr. Drew, because without it they have no
case. There is no corroboration for what she said. There is no forensic evidence. There were no eye witnesses. And so the defense is doing
exactly what they need to be doing. And they are trying to get the judge to rule that this confession, this tape is not admissible. And they are
making --
PINSKY: How are you going to make that case?
SEDAGHATFAR: They are making the case by saying number one, she did not even understand the Miranda rights. English is not her first language.
PINSKY: She is obfuscating. Casey says she is obfuscating. She understand it well and it is just a bunch of smoke screen.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK. Well, they have another argument if the judge does not buy that, Dr. Drew. A good defense attorney will also say that if this is
deemed a confession, it is a false confession. She was coerced. She sat in that interrogation room for 11 hours. She complained she was exhausted.
And I think at one point, she even told the detective that she was bleeding and she thought she was suffering a miscarriage. And they continued with
the questioning. They did not stop, they did not give her a break. They did not reread her, her Miranda rights. And so the judge really only needs
to buy one of these two arguments, and than confession tape gets tossed.
PINSKY: Casey, Miranda, huh? I do not understand what my attorney is talking about. She is obfuscating, right? The interviews go for 11 hours
and they are dismissed?
JORDAN: Yes. Well, OK, first of all, she knows what Miranda is, ever since we have been children watching dragnet. Since 1966, we know what
Miranda is --
PINSKY: Well, she was in Latvia or whatever, to be fair.
JORDAN: She has been here for more than 15 years. But the key is that she can ask for a lawyer at any time. I am sure she understood that. She had
the right to remain silent, but she did not use it. Then when she realized she said too much to the very cute cop, then she tries to just, as you say,
obfuscate it.
She is duplicities, then she is like of -- If she had said, "What is Miranda?" I would say, maybe she is confused. But when she says, "Who is
Miranda?" That, to me, is just a red herring. It is transparent that he is trying to get out of what she has been doing.
PINSKY: Counselor, quick. Go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: If that was the case that the police should never give anyone a Miranda warning, because everyone has heard about Miranda. That is not
the standard. The constitutional standard is --
PINSKY: Yes. But Anahita, she said --
SEDAGHATFATR: But the law says they have to.
PINSKY: And she did not say "What is Miranda?" She said "Who is Miranda," which is especially bizarre. And that is misleading, I think she is
obfuscating. But I have got a friend of the alleged murder here. He does not think she did it. Well, hear what he has got to say.
And still to come, the mother who was arrested after disciplining, so- called, her sons for breaking and entering. She joins us, after this.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:25:00] [COMMERCIAL BREAK]
[BEGIN AUDIO CLIP]
GRASWALD: But I do not see him. Oh, my God.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Do you see the kayak still?
GRASWALD: No, the kayak went underwater. Oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 FEMALE DISPATCHER: Alright, we have got a boat in the water already heading down to you. OK?
GRASWALD: OK. The water is very cold. I am afraid he is -- Oh, my God.
[END AUDIO CLIP]
PINSKY: Angelika Graswald`s chilling 911 call obtained by "20/20." She is charged with killing his fiance by having tampered with his kayak causing
him to drown. Back with Anahita, Troy and Casey. And on the phone, I have Joel Goss. He is a friend of Angelika`s. Joel, thanks for joining us.
JOEL GOSS, FRIEND OF ANGELIKA GRASWALD: Absolutely.
PINSKY : Now, about a week after the fiance disappeared, she texted you and asked you to come over and, I guess, discuss this. Can you tell us about
that?
GOSS: It was not so much a discussion. I gathered, it had the feel of it had been pretty much exactly a week and she called about half a dozen of us
to come over and cook food and sit around. She was just distraught and then hopeful and then distraught and hopeful. And it was just an easy
going bunch of friends.
PINSKY: Did she understand that she could be in a lot of trouble at that point?
GOSS: It did not sound like it. To me, she was mainly -- she would say things like "It is only been a week. There is still hope." Things like
that. Then every once in awhile, she would burst out with something like "I cannot believe he will be gone." You know, that kind of stuff.
PINSKY: And Joel, you relayed a story to one of our producers about a party you two were at together and she alleges that she had a
hallucination. She said she saw a ghost.
GOSS: No, it was not a hallucination. We are in Hudson Valley, where Sleepy Hallow and stuff like that. There is a lot of ghost hunters and
ghost people and hauntings and that kind of stuff.
And at one point, in a discussion like that, she said, "Well, there is a ghost over there in that corner and he seems angry." And afterwards, after
hearing about the arrest, I thought, "You know, somebody who believes in ghosts is not going to make one that is already angry at her."
PINSKY: Do you think she is guilty?
GOSS: No. I do not. I do not know. You never know, but nothing tells me she is. And there is a whole lot of stuff that just does not make any
sense.
PINSKY: So to you -- as you have known her, she has been a stable person for whom this would be unheard of behavior, let us say?
GOSS: You know, somebody from Latvia, I do not know what is unheard of, but she seemed much more stable than she is being made out to be, mostly.
PINSKY: OK.
GOSS: I mean, I worked in theater in the `80s and people were dying left and right. And I saw all kinds of manifestation of grief.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOSS: So you just never know.
PINSKY: OK. Joel, I really appreciate your sharing with us today. I do. I want to go back to my panel and show them during an investigation --
during some of the interrogations, she did make some other bizarre statements. So as we see her -- I think it is bizarre that she saw a
ghost, if she really meant that. And she made a statement about, quote, "Her demon side." Watch this from "20/20."
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: What are your feelings and emotions knowing that this is about to happen?
GRASWALD: I am like ripping in two halves. You know, angels and demos.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: That is the demon side saying?
GRASWALD: The demon side -- it is not a good side. You guys do not want to see that side of me. Nobody does. That side was telling me, "This is
going to happen, let it happen. Just let it." But the good side was, "Save him, save him, save him. You can do it. You can do it. You are
strong."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: Why did the demon side win out?
GRASWALD: Well, cause of the way he was treating me, you know.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: Now, Casey, I think you will agree with me, from a psychiatric standpoint and probably from a legal standpoint as well, this is her
problem. She is describing a Jodi Ariasesque internal character construct.
JORDAN: Right. And most people are very in touch with the fact that they have good thoughts and bad thoughts, the angel and the demon sitting on
their shoulder. But in a police interrogation, they usually know not to talk about the bad thoughts that are in their head when they are under
suspicious for murder.
[19:30:05] So when she says, "My husband is dead and I am OK with it. I mean I have a really hard time believing that she does not understand that,
that is statement is going to link her to his drowning.
Especially, if she did, indeed, and I do believe she told the cop that she, you know, unscrewed that plug and messed with that paddle. You know, I
think she could be playing a role where she is setting herself up for a psychiatric defense of a diminished capacity.
But it is the wrong state to do it in. I mean, New York really loves McNaughton rule, so I do not think it is going to work. But I doubt, she
did a research on that before she started with the histrionics.
PINSKY: And investigators say they found her diary, where she describes her fiance wanting rough sex, pressuring her to take part in threesomes.
Here is what she said in the interrogation tape.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: He always wanted sex --
GRASWALD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: -- and you to do sexual things.
GRASWALD: Well, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: OK.
GRASWALD: He wanted threesomes, porn, everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: OK.
GRASWALD: And I was not ready.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: But Anahita, you would, I imagine, say that, that is not a reason. That is a motive for murder.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Well, that is part of the motive that the state is going to argue. They are also arguing that she had the motive of the life
insurance policy, that there was $250,000 in life insurance here. And one more thing about that confession; first of all, that is a confession.
That interrogation, I think, she confessed numerous times that she did this. But we also have the statements that she made at the scene of the
crime during the little memorial service that she had.
So even if this video tape gets tossed out because of the Miranda issue, those other statements she made where she said I am happy he is dead. I
want to be free. I felt so trapped with him, that comes in.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, are you a deference attorney?
SEDAGHATFAR: She has them. She has liable defenses, Dr. Drew. I am just saying that this is the reality of what will happen. If the defense gets
that tape tossed out, then the prosecution still can use the statements that she gave that the scene of the crime, when she arguably had a
voluntary discussion with these police officers.
PINSKY: All right. Troy, last thought.
SLATEN: Anahita is making all the arguments for me.
[LAUGHING]
PINSKY: That is what I thought!
SLATEN: Yes. I mean, this woman had means, motive, and opportunity. She admitted on the island, where she very strangely invited the cops, invited
the police while she is laying the wreath for her dead fiance, that is very strange. That is bizarre, as you were saying. But she had all the means,
motive, opportunity to commit this crime.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
SLATEN: And she did.
PINSKY: All right. I am going to off Casey`s script a little bit and say what she is describing, this psychiatric defense is her psychiatric
disorder. I think she actually does have something very much like what Jodi Arias had, which is a borderline personality, in which people
literally using her words in that interrogation tape, Feel ripped apart.
They are all good and they all bad. They are literally look often sort of two cells residing in one person. She said, "I do not want anybody to see
this bad side. She means it.
Next up, her sons broke into a neighbor`s house, so she punished them with a whipping. Now this mom, right here, is charged with child abuse and her
kids have been taken away. Back after this.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:35:00] [COMMERCIAL BREAK]
[BEGIN VIDEOTAPE]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER [voice-over]: This mother said she caught three of her children and a few of their friends coming home with stuff they
stole from a neighbor.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
SCHAQUANA SPEARS, ARRESTED FOR PUNISHING KIDS: I just grabbed the belt off the dresser and whooped them, like I had caught a many of butt-whoopings
for not doing what I was told.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The punishment for trying to punish her children put Schaquana Spears in the East Baton Rouge Parish Prison.
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
SPEARS: I did not want them to commit another crime and did what I was raised to do what my mom did to me. I am a bad person? I do not think it
is right.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEOTAPE]
PINSKY: That mom is charged with child cruelty for having punished her sons by whipping them with a T.V. cord. Some says, it is a T.V. cord, some
says, video cord. This is it. According to police, two of the boys had open wounds. Not easy to do it with this. Third had scratches.
I am back with Anahita, Troy and joining us is Jennifer Keith, author, radio host, life coach. So who shall I go to first. I am going to save
Jennifer for a second. Troy, did not this mom go too far?
SLATEN: She may very well have. I mean, parents have an obligation and a duty to discipline their children. And in that state you are even allowed
to get physical, but this woman left open wounds. She hit her children so hard with that T.V. cable that it left an open gash on their bodies.
PINSKY: Should she have her kids taken away from her?
SLATEN: Maybe for awhile until we can see whether or not the other children -- This is a mother of six.
PINSKY: All right.
SLATEN: We will see whether or not they are safe in that house.
PINSKY: Jennifer, I know you and I have conflicted on this topic before and we will tonight, again. But taking kids away from their mom, come on
now.
JENNIFER KEITT, AUTHOR, RADIO HOST, LIFE COACH: That is so drastic, Dr. Drew. Obviously, you know, I love you, but I completely agree with what
this mother did. It would be detrimental if she did not take that action and her children ended up dead or in jail.
I do not even see where there is an issue here. They burglarized someone else`s home. What is -- what is she supposed to do? Put them in time out?
What is she supposed to do? Take away their cell phones? Make sure they stay in their rooms. That is ridiculous.
SLATEN: What you do not do, Dr. Drew, is beat them until they have a gaping wound that is bleeding.
KEITT: They could have --
SLATEN: And maybe a spanking, you know, maybe a time out. Maybe taking away their electronic devices.
PINSKY: Let me hear Anahita. Let me hear Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is a tough one. I mean, I believe that she thought she was doing the right thing. I believe that she thought this was just
discipline.
PINSKY: Take her kids away? Why think would the states to do it, whoever or whatever organization did it?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think you take the kids away yet. I think the Das is doing the right thing.
PINSKY: Right.
SEDAGHATFAR: And they said, we are going to wait, conduct an investigation. See what went on in the household. Was there prior abuse?
How were they --
[19:PINSKY: And Anahita, imagine how we would be sitting here doing if these kids commit crimes later in life.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you.
PINSKY: They still might, I mean, to be fair. But we be going, "Oh, what did that mother do? Where was she was she when these kids were acting out
when they were younger?
SEDAGHATFAR: I disagree with that, because I highly doubt this is the first she used corporal punishment on her kids, and they just did something
like this. And again, I believe she thought she was doing the right thing. But when you leave marks on a child, that goes beyond discipline and that
turns into abuse.
PINSKY: Jennifer , let us hear some of the feedback.
KEITT: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Well, you got feedback from our viewers. Do not you?
KEITT: I do.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
KEITT: I got to get the feedback. But, Dr. Drew, first and foremost think about this, if those children were breaking into someone else`s home and
that person had a gun and shot them dead --
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: -- a couple of scrapes is much better than you talking about the child being dead. They could have gotten scrapes by breaking into someone
else`s home. That is absolutely ridiculous --
PINSKY: Well, you mentioned the woman`s house was burglarized. Even she supports the mother, apparently. So it is really interesting. She wonders
-- I guess, I would ask my attorneys here. Can that woman drop the charges or is not that on the hands of the DA?
SEDAGHATFAR: No.
PINSKY: It is on the DA.
SLATEN: Yes. It has nothing --
SEDAGHATFAR: It is in the hands of the DA.
PINSKY: Yes.
SEDAGHATFAR: And here is the thing, Dr. Drew, it would be one thing if this was a deterrent. But we have learned on your show over and over that
abusing children like this is not a deterrent.
PINSKY: Well, hold on. I am going to get to that. Hang on. I am going to get to that. Do not you worry, Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK. I expect it.
PINSKY: But first, I want to hear what Jennifer got from his viewers.
SEDAGHATFAR: OK.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jennifer.
KEITT: So Will says, "I`d rather have a parent spank me than to have to bury me. This mom is doing her job." This is not abuse this is
discipline. David says, "A whooping was too much. How about a bullet from the homeowner? Or a prison sentence?"
And then Dee Dee says, "Taking discipline away from parents and schools -- this is so good - are part of the problem today. She is trying to prevent
a police encounter down the road and is made to be the criminal!?" I completely concur with that.
You cannot remove the fact that as an African-American mom, she is well aware of where we are in this country today. And whooping them and leaving
a couple of marks is much better than burying them and having to put them into a coffin. I do not even see the argument.
PINSKY: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: But that is assuming that it is a deterrent and study after study shows that abusing children like this is not a deterrent. It does
not prevent children from engaging in bad behavior.
PINSKY: Well, in fact, the research is very clear. It makes it worse.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: That is the real problem here. I am deeply sympathetic, and I am as frustrated as the mom is. And I understand why she wanted to do that.
And I am even sympathetic to everyone that is bringing in on her side. It feels desperate. But the fact is, it is simply scientific fact, it makes
things worse, Jennifer.
KEITT: But, Dr. Drew -
PINSKY: I wish it made it better.
KEITT: -- how can you scientifically say that when you have got so many, like myself, who had parents that used occasionally corporal punishment.
There are many, many people --
PINSKY: I did not say -- what I did not say --
KEITT: And we are OK. We are OK.
PINSKY: I did not say everyone who receives this kind of punishment is going to end up in trouble. If you are going to end up in trouble, you
will had this kind of punishment and it makes it worse. That is the problem. I do not know the answer, frankly. Jennifer, you framed it
rather well, which was "What do you do? You give them a time out?" I am sure these are big boys.
KEITT: Time out for burglary?
PINSKY: No. You are right.
KEITT: What are you supposed to do? Sit --
PINSKY: What I would do, I would turn them over to law enforcement. I would turn them over to them -- If they are breaking the law, suffer the
consequences. That is it.
KEITT: And that is --
PINSKY: Now, whatever I did beforehand -- and unfortunately we have another criminal on our hands now. And I agree with you, we should not,
but this poor mom is being processed as a criminal. I feel terrible for her.
KEITT: That is terrible.
PINSKY: I agree with you. Now, I have gotten her next. I actually got mom, Schaquana is here to tell us what is happening to her since her arrest
and released from jail. She had been released. And I do not know if she has the kids back with her. Anahita, you said she does have the kids.
SEDAGHATFAR: I said, I do not know.
PINSKY: I hope so.
SEDAGHATFAR: I said, I think they should wait.
PINSKY: I hope so. I hope so, because that is a travesty if the kids are all gone.
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.
PINSKY: Why not make better parents? If we think she is not doing a good job, let us teach her how to do a better job rather than make her a
criminal. We are back after this.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:45:00] [COMMERCIAL BREAK]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
SPEARS: Any mother in their right mind would, you know, chastise their child for doing wrong.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
HILLAR MOORE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, EAST BATON ROUGE: We need parents involved with their kids` lives and we need parents who are going to be a
parent and not a friend. In this case, what this lady chose may have saved these kids` lives and may have thought them a lesson in the future.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
AMANDA BRUNSON, PREVENT CHILD ABUSE LOUISIANA: The Louisiana law defines abuse as injury and things that endanger the physical mental and emotional
health of a child. Her response is heartbreaking. You know, we never want to see kids experience that kind of hurt.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]
SPEARS: Maybe I should have did nothing. I should have did nothing. And, I still would have been wrong, though. I would have been unfit. Then they
would have said you should have did something. You should have discipline them.
[END VIDEO CLIP]
PINSKY: There you go. I am back with Anahita, Troy and Jennifer. And joining me on the phone, I have Schaquana Spears, the mom facing charges
for punishing her sons for hitting them with a cord just like this.
So, Schaquana, we are all sort of -- we are feeling terrible you are in this position. How are you getting along? Is your family still together?
How has this left you and your children? Are you still there?
BRENDEN CRAIG, SCHAQUANA SPEARS` ATTORNEY: Hi, this is Brenden Craig. I am Schaquan`s attorney, I am sitting here with her. Unfortunately, at this
time they are not allowed to comment on any status of any custody --
PINSKY: I am not talking about custody. I am not talking about custody. I am discussing how is everybody doing? They have been through a horrible
ordeal here. I am saying -- I have said here that removing kids from the mom is a terrible idea. It is damaging to kids, and if they have issues
with how the mom was functioning as a parent, let us make her a better parent. Jennifer, back me up on this.
[19:50:05] KEITT: Absolutely. Let us help every way that we can help by not taking away her right to be able to discipline her children.
PINSKY: Anahita, you want to say something here, go ahead.
SEDAGHATFAR: I was just going to say -- again, there is a fine line between discipline and then causing injury to a child, not only is it
illegal, but it is morally wrong in my opinion.
PINSKY: All right. OK.
SEDAGHATFAR: I sympathize with this mom, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: OK. Let us ask Schaquana, did you understand where that line was before this happened?
SCHAQUANA SPEARS, ARRESTED FOR PUNISHING KIDS: Yes.
PINSKY: And was it the case that -- it was your sons, right, that had done the burglary or the breaking and entering?
SPEARS: Yes. It was my sons and their friends.
PINSKY: And, I imagine you were desperate.
SPEARS: No.
PINSKY: You were not desperate?
SPEARS: I wanted to -- I wanted them to understand the seriousness of what they were doing. And to know that it is not right to break in and steal
from someone.
PINSKY: What made you decide to use physical discipline?
[LAUGHING]
SPEARS: It is a method that parents do. I mean, it has been around for ages. I mean, that is how I was raised. And, I think I turned out fine.
I mean, I did not think anything was wrong with disciplining your kids.
PINSKY: Again, we are -- Troy, I will let you come in here. We are trying to make that distinction between disciplining and leaving wounds, which is
where you sort of drew the line.
SLATEN: Yes. I mean, the law allows a parent to discipline their child, of course. And we want to teach our children what is right and what is
wrong, but the law does not allow physical abuse. It does not allow cruelty, excessive pain and in this case, it looks like the mom may have
gone too far.
I mean, yes, of course we -- she needs to teach them right from wrong. She needs to teach them that breaking into someone`s house is wrong and that is
a crime. But it may also be a crime to discipline them to the point, where they have an open wound.
PINSKY: Jennifer?
KEITT: Absolutely not. Open wound, I would love to be able to see exactly what you are calling an open wound. Because children going out and doing
what they are not supposed to be doing and burglarizing someone else`s home, I cannot even imagine what kind of danger they found themselves in
before they even committed that crime. Her disciplining her children was commensurate with what they did. Absolutely.
SLATEN: I mean, would this have been better fit was wire hangers? I mean this is -- this does not seem right. I mean, the study show, Dr. Drew
said, that this does not make somebody a better person. In fact this just makes --
PINSKY: No. In fact --
SLATEN: It makes it worse. And this woman may have committed a crime. And two wrongs do not make a right.
PINSKY: That is the horrible part.
KEITT: She did not commit a crime.
SEDAGHATFAR: Is this something that she would do again? I guess, I would want to know.
PINSKY: Schaquana, let me ask you this, is this a technique you would use again if something like this were to happen with your kids and you thought
you needed to use discipline of this sort, would you do it?
SPEARS: I will always discipline my kids when they deserve it. I would rather discipline them than to stand over them in a coffin or to visit them
in a jail cell. I am sorry. I did what I thought was right. Teach my kids.
It is in the bible, train up a child in which they should grow and when they grow old, they will not depart it from. That is what I was raised and
installed in me, so that is basically all I was trying to do.
PINSKY: Thank you, Schaquana. We will take a little break. We will be right back after this.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:55:00] [COMMERCIAL BREAK]
PINSKY: We are discussing the woman, who is arrested for disciplining her three children after they broke into a neighbor`s home. I am back with
Anahita, Troy and Jennifer. And here is my basic position is, if this were something that worked, I would advocate for it.
Just the way I take issue with people using opiates for chronic pain, because the research shows it does not work. I have no reason to withhold
that. If it worked -- if the research showed t worked, I would strongly advocate it. Going to any prison in this country and you will find the
vast majority of people had this sort of disciplining.
So if we had an adverse social outcome and we said, "What is the common trait in all of these people, who ended up in a certain state? We would
try to change that. So Jennifer, that is my only issue.
If there were research that showed this would work, I would be right with you on this. I do not care how -- if it dramatically change the direction
of people`s lives in a positive way, we would do it.
KEITT: Dr. Drew, it has been going on for ions. Has your research gone all the way back to historical times, even biblical times to trace the
roots of people who were disciplined. Not in an egregious kind of way, but as a tool in a big parental tool chest. That is all I am saying. It is
one methodology. And I am sure she is doing the best that she can. But to take her children away from her, because she disciplined them, come on!
PINSKY: I am with you on this. That is terrible. Yes -- No. I am with you.
KEITT: We are wrong.
PINSKY: And also, Anahita, where is dad? Well, guess what? Dad is incarcerated. This poor moms are the one sticking around trying to do the
work and we criminalize her.
KEITT: Thank you.
SEDAGHATFAR: It is tough. I mean, I am not a parent much less a single mom with six kids whose husband is in prison. So I cannot imagine how
difficult it is and how stressful it is, but to me, it seems as though parenting classes may not even really affect her because she said she is
going to do it again.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, she is deep in with six kids. It is overwhelming.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is right.
PINSKY: Troy, a few seconds left, last words.
SLATEN: She whipped them bloody with a wire. We are in a civilized society. Yes, parents need to discipline, but they do not get to
discipline to the point where they are leaving cuts, bruises and acting it, really in a cruel way to their children. That is not the way. They need
to lead by example.
PINSKY: We will leave it there. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, panel. DVR us. You can watch any time. And Nancy Grace is up next.
[20:00:00] END.
END
