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Dr. Drew
Deputies Say Both 22-Year-Old Taylor Sheats And 17-Year-Old Madison Sheats Were Shot By Their Mother, 42-Year-Old Christy Sheats; Rape Charges Dropped Against A Former Frat Boy; A Desperate Father Takes His Child From The Backseat Of A Sweltering Van, Puts Her In The Refrigerator
Aired June 27, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:17] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERINE KNOWLES, FRIEND OF MOM WHO COPS SAY SHOT DAUGHTERS: This is not Christy that I know. It is just not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMAL REPORTER (voice-over): Deputies say both 22-year- old Taylor Sheats and 17-year-old Madison Sheats was shot by their mother, 42-year-old Christy Sheats before Christy was killed by a police officer
Friday night. Only Jason Sheats, the husband and father was not hurt. Neighbor say the girls were killed on their father`s birthday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNOWLES: I cannot imagine anything that would have happened in her life that would have made her snap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW" SHOW: Tonight, questions about the mother`s mental health and her apparent love of guns. Joining
me, Lisa Bloom, Family Law Attorney at the Bloom Firm and Legal Analyst for Avvo.com; Bradford Cohen, Criminal Defense Attorney; Jena Kravitz, Clinical
Neuropsychologist, Neurobiologist and Beth Karas, Investigative Journalist, karasoncrime.com. Beth, fill us in. What else do we need to know about
this horrible, horrible story?
BETH KARAS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, Dr. Drew, we do have breaking news. 22-year-old Taylor was due to be married today. Also, the
police say that the mother had convened a family meeting and then opened fire. Now, according to a neighbor, the girls came out on to the street
already wounded.
There is one report that they had actually been stabbed. I do not know how accurate that is. Police say it was a family argument that turned
into the shooting. And, finally, this related detail, the couple had recently reconciled. It is unclear how long they had been separated, that
is Christy Sheats and her husband.
PINSKY: Thank you, Beth. And police also say they responded to the family home 14 times since January 2012. They are calling their previous
altercations having to do with the mom`s, quote, "Mental crisis." Jena, I know we do not have much information, but let us kind of sort this out
here. I mean, this is some sort of -- I mean this is severe mental disturbance.
JENA KRAVITZ, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. Women naturally do not tend to want to murder or harm their children. That
is number one. So I think what we have here is a lot of missing information, right? There is, obviously, some family dynamic that we do
not know enough about yet, combined with perhaps an undertreated underlying mental illness. I am going to say, perhaps, because I do not know her.
PINSKY: Let us go a little stronger.
KRAVITZ: How about a personality disorder.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: How about something that looks like a borderline --
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: -- and unstable.
PINSKY: Right.
KRAVITZ: And even just looking at her Facebook pictures, this is somebody who looks to be kind of an attention seeker, a pleaser, makes bold
statements to -- for attention --
PINSKY: And if we are going to sort of the Jodi Arias borderline sort of area --
KRAVITZ: Yes.
PINSKY: -- which is also unstable emotions, unregulated rage and hostility and difficulty with impulse control, right? All her --
KRAVITZ: Yes. And I would say, you know, with mothers who harm their children, it is so -- it happens so infrequently, but often what you hear
are these people who have depleted coping skills, right?
So on top of all of these other stressors, and she has this daughter who is getting married, and who knows what these stressors were in her
marriage and what the other issues are here, but it sounds to me like really depleted coping skills here. Mothers do not turn to guns to harm
their kids.
LISA BLOOM, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: But Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Lisa, the only time -- I know you want to go after the guns, Lisa and after her being a bad person --
BLOOM: No, no.
PINSKY: But the only time I ever get to see this kind of behavior in a woman is when they are psychotic, franky, when they are really not
connected to reality.
BLOOM: But we cannot -- look, clearly, she probably had some kind of mental issue, but that is not the same thing as saying that she is legally
insane. And I just want to clarify --
PINSKY: Correct.
BLOOM: Nobody is saying that, because if we did, then any woman who shoots somebody could get off scot-free, right? Because women do not do
that, so she must have been insane, and therefore she is not legally responsible for actions.
So we do not want to go down that road. We want to be careful, I think, in how we analyze her. I mean, this is a woman who got a gun, who
murdered her daughters, and this is a horrible, horrible story. Until we know more about her mental state, I am not prepared to say what it was.
PINSKY: Of course. Lise, of course, we are speculating, and got herself killed, so this is even possibly a murder-suicide.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Which again is not insane in the eyes of the law, strangely enough, right, Brad?
BRADFORD COHEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Absolutely. And like I said, you do not know enough about what her psychosis was to even go down
that road. And I -- I really hate the people that are really taking this to a gun thing. This is more of a mental issue that is going on here. If
she had a Japanese ninja sword, she would have done this.
BLOOM: You do not know that.
COHEN: I do not think, it`s jump to gun thing that made this that.
BLOOM: It is much easier to take a life with a gun.
COHEN: Come on. Let us not be silly.
BLOOM: No. Listen to me.
COHEN: I am sure.
BLOOM: It is much easier --
COHEN: We do not even know if there were stabbing.
BLOOM: Bradley --
COHEN: We do not even know if these kids were stabbed.
BLOOM: Bradly, if I may --
COHEN: It is Bradford.
BLOOM: Bradford --
COHEN: And let me tell you something.
BLOOM: Bradford, may I say something?
COHEN: These guys that do the exact same thing --
BLOOM: Apparently not.
COHEN: -- with or without guns.
PINSKY: OK.
BLOOM: OK. Thank you for the man explaining. If I may be allowed to speak now.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: OK. Go, Lisa.
BLOOM: May I be allowed to speak, Bradford.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BLOOM: Thank you.
COHEN: If you listen --
BLOOM: Apparently not.
COHEN: If you listen to my point --
BLOOM: Apparently not.
COHEN: My point is women drown their kids.
BLOOM: He never stops.
COHEN: There is cases where women drown their kids. There is knife things. It has nothing to do with the gun.
BLOOM: OK.
PINSKY: Lisa, go ahead.
COHEN: But, go ahead.
BLOOM: Thank you. Hey, Bradford --
PINSKY: Bradley.
BLOOM: -- we have a higher suicide rate in United States because of guns. People will kill themselves with guns much more easily, much more
quickly, and much more effectively than with a knife. I mean that is just reality.
We have a far higher homicide rate because of guns. That is just the data. That is just statistics. You tell me this mother would kill her
daughter with a ninja sword. I mean what planet do you live on?
PINSKY: Well, we do not know --
COHEN: I have no idea.
PINSKY: We do not know -- yes.
COHEN: She sounds psychotic.
PINSKY: There is a possibility --
KRAVITZ: But, you know what, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Jena.
KRAVITZ: I do not think that -- I am not convinced that she was psychotic in that moment, because --
PINSKY: I understand that. I understand that. That was my thing.
KRAVITZ: Well, I will tell you why.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
KRAVITZ: She planned a family meeting.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: So,she is planning this. This was potentially thought out well ahead of time.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: Listen. I want to get a more information here. I have the sheriff, do I not? Can I bring him in here? If you guys could give me the
information -- There we go. It is Troy Nehls from Fort Bend County Texas. Sheriff, thank you for joining us.
SHERIFF TROY NEHLS, FORT BEND COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Good evening.
PINSKY: Now, your office had responded to 14 calls in just two and a half years. Can you tell us about -- are you able to tell us about the
nature of any of those calls?
NEHLS: Well, there were a variety of calls, just basic law enforcement calls too. Three of the calls that dealt with attempted
suicide.
PINSKY: Oh. Part of the mom? --
NEHLS: As far as details --
PINSKY: Yes.
NEHLS: I will not be doing any of that.
PINSKY: OK. I understand.
KRAVITZ: Well, there is your borderline.
PINSKY: Yes. So borderlines have this history recurrence suicide attempts that are dramatic and often involve law enforcement. Is there any
reason to believe that this episode was a murder-suicide -- suicide by police?
NEHLS: No. No.
PINSKY: OK.
NEHLS: I could say that.
PINSKY: And the other calls you said are just genera -- the word you used, I thought to myself -- what was the word you use? General visits or
something?
NEHLS: The house could have been monitored with an alarm system, and the alarm may had been set off accidently.
PINSKY: I see.
NEHLS: So, there are numerous calls --
PINSKY: OK. First thought I had to myself is so far, I cannot think of any police activity at by my house in ten years, and so I would imagine
that even if it is an alarm going off repeatedly, that is not normal.
NEHLS: Well, again, what I can tell you is that we have three calls. We were there for a call in reference to an attempted suicide.
PINSKY: OK. Can you tell us anything what you learned from the girls, the father, particularly, the father who now -- who survived this?
NEHLS: Well, obviously, he is a victim, and he was very shaken up.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.
NEHLS: Obviously to be able to witness something like this, very distraught, and we just have to continue to pray for him to try to get
through something like this.
PINSKY: OK, sure.
NEHLS: To witness it. Horrible.
PINSKY: Sheriff. I do appreciate you being here. This helps us clarify everything. Jena, it helps you and I for sure, because that really
does put her in that category of real emotional instability, recurrent suicide attempts, character pathology. That is certainly what we were
talking about.
KRAVITZ: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes. And so the idea of psychosis may or may not be a part of this.
KRAVITZ: Well, active psychosis in that moment, we do not know.
PINSKY: Yes.
KRAVITZ: But people who are actively psychotic are often not rational enough to plan out something like this.
PINSKY: Well, we do not know. The family meeting may have been for something relatively benign --
KRAVITZ: You are right.
PINSKY: -- and broke down into something more tragic.
KRAVITZ: You are right.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, I got one of Christy`s friends, who has some interesting things about this tragedy. She is here to tell us about
what she knew to be a loving mother. And, later, a dad is arrested and charged for putting his dead baby in the refrigerator, in the freezer I
think, after leaving her in a hot car for four hours. Another horrible story. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNOWLES: Your own children, I do not know what could possibly go through someone`s head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Two sisters with their whole lives ahead of them killed in an unthinkable tragedy allegedly at the
hands of their own mother. Only Jason Sheets, the husband and father, was not hurt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE NEIGHBOR: You know what, it crushed him. He loved his daughters. They were, like, best friends, I know that for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Husband and wife had apparently just reconciled after some difficult times. Back with Lisa, Bradford, Jena and Beth. And we just
heard a neighbor talk about how close the dad and his daughters were. And we know the oldest one was supposed to have gotten married today. Beth, do
we have any other information on the mom`s mental status?
KARAS: Well, there was a neighbor who wants to remain anonymous who told "People" magazine that this neighbor`s parents saw Christy Sheats
being loaded into an ambulance some years ago.
Now, there was no further detail about why, although your interview with the sheriff just now shed some light on potentially why she was being
taken away, perhaps it was a suicide attempt. Also, this neighbor said that Christy Sheats was a recluse, that she never came out of her house.
PINSKY: Not what you call signs of mental health. Joining me on the phone, I have Catherine Knowles. She is a friend of the mom, Christy
Sheats. Catherine, thank you for joining us.
KNOWLES: Thank you for having me tonight.
PINSKY: Any signs looking back that something like this could happen?
KNOWLES: No. No, not at all, Dr. Drew. I saw nothing that would indicate anything like this whatsoever. Actually, my relationship with
Christy was of a -- the reason I wanted to speak tonight, it was a very positive relationship, the first time we met was within 30 seconds of
meeting her, w were talking her daughters.
She loved those girls. I cannot imagine what possibly has gone through her head. I saw no signs of anything like this. It just totally
shocked me. I just wanted to express my condolences to the family and friends that all have to endure this tragedy.
PINSKY: Yes. It is just awful. Go ahead.
[19:15:00] KNOWLES: The Christy who I knew, she was a kind, generous person, and where she found her joy in her life was from her daughters. I
mean, that was from the minute we met, and our relationship became, you know -- it lasted through just meeting for a couple days. We remained
friends through, you know, texting and Facebook and phone calls, because she was a giver.
PINSKY: Did you know about her previous suicide attempts?
KNOWLES: I did not know that. No, sorry, I did not.
PINSKY: And did you ever see any flashes of anger or instability, anything that would have clued us into what might have triggered this?
KNOWLES: Nothing.
PINSKY: Nothing.
KNOWLES: No, not a word. What I got from her was kindness and generosity, and she was always trying to help me. I mean, I had recently
published a book, and she just did everything that she could do to help me by posting stuff on social media, calling me up, giving me suggestions, and
ideas and just always there for me. Never took anything in return, and every conversation we had, I can assure you, her daughters were brought up.
PINSKY: Yes.
KNOWLES: It has been a couple months since I have spoke with her, but she was just a loving mother. I cannot begin to tell you what would
have happened to make somebody do something this horrific, but it is -- what I knew of Christy, she loved those girls. That was her role in her
life was being a mom.
PINSKY: To follow along what you are saying, let me show you a -- this is something she posted on her Facebook. It says, quote, "It would be
horribly tragic if my ability to protect myself or family were to be taken away, but that is exactly what democrats are determined to do by banning
semiautomatic handguns." Catherine, did you understand that she was very much of a gun advocate?
KNOWLES: I imagine probably most people in Texas are gun advocates, and I really do not have an opinion one way or another. We never discussed
the issue with guns.
PINSKY: And, also, we are hearing that the husband and she had just reconciled, was there anything -- did you know anything about that? Did
they seem stable?
KNOWLES: I did not know them as a couple. I knew her as I met her as an individual, woman to woman. We talked about her children, and her --
she just went out of her way to help me. That is what our contact would be, I would say. "Hi, Christy, it looks like you have been promoting my
book again, thank you." You know, just out of nowhere, you know.
I will see her post, hey, somebody, to all her Facebook friends, look, this is my friend, buy her book. It is a good book. I loved it.
And that was our relationship. It was -- she wanted nothing out of me, and just heard -- you mentioned something about her being a recluse?
She was extremely outgoing, approachable. Everybody got all these negative things to say during a tragedy, I just wanted to express she was a
positive influence in my life and I believe she was a positive influence in her daughters` lives, and that was -- that is my take of Christy, and she
was a wonderful mom, and she loved her girls.
PINSKY: Thank you. I appreciate your input here. But Jena, the fact is, we have somebody who appeared to be one thing in sort of superficial
social contact and yet she killed her daughters.
KRAVITZ: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And got herself killed. That is the fact.
KRAVITZ: And also, who was treating this woman who knew of her history of suicide attempts and mental illness, allegedly, and allegedly
knew thatshe had a handgun in the home? That is -- that is frightening.
PINSKY: Well, Jenna, I want to go to Brad on this. Brad, unfortunately, I know you were attacking people, taking on the gun issue
with this, but unfortunately as both for Jena and myself, this is all together too frequently a story, that people are allowed to return home
with their firearm. People are not questioned about their firearms. People gain access to firearms who physicians would never allow, and yet we
do not have the safeguards in place to prevent that.
COHEN: Yes, and I understand that. I am not saying that everybody should have a gun or there should be laws about it or anything like that,
Dr. Drew. I am not saying that. I am saying there should be certain safeguards that are in place.
What my point was, is that someone with this history could have done it any other way, any other means possible. Now, that being said, yes, I
think if she was being treated and someone knew of her either psychosis or I do not know the exact word for it, you know, whatever you guys use --
PINSKY: Whatever we use, but to be fair, I am going to switch over to Lisa. But to be fair, Lisa, strangely enough, if there was a samurai sword
on her wall, people will go "Let`s get rid of that, but the guns." "No, no. No, no, cannot go there. That is her constitutional privilege."
BLOOM: We tell people to throw away their kitchen knives.
PINSKY: Yes. We do.
BLOOM: Guns are far more deadly and gun should not be in the hands of the mentally ill, and we as a country cannot coalesce around that. I mean,
that is how gun-crazed we are in this country.
If somebody chases you with a knife, you can run from a knife. It is much harder to run away when there is a gun. And the bottom line is, this
woman took lives of her two beautiful daughters.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: I mean, she did that.
PINSKY: Bottom line.
BLOOM : So, I agree. She has got mental illnesses and was a lovely person to her friend, but this is what she did. I would love to hear from
her daughters` friends as to what relationship she had with the daughters, had she ever threatened them for example.
[19:20:00] PINSKY: Yes, who knows. Hopefully, more information could be coming. Beth, anything on that front before we shut this one
down?
KARAS: No, I do not have any additional information on that. However, I do want to say that Lisa makes a good point that, you know, this is not
comparable to a mother drowning her children. Andrea Yates drowned a 6- month old and 7-year-old, these were adults who could have fled from a knife. And it is hard to make an argument in favor if the mentally-ill
owning guns.
PINSKY: Next up --
BLOOM: Yes, I do.
COHEN: We do not even know if they were stabbed, so let us not get crazy.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Brad, I am trying not to get crazy. I am trying to stay reasonable, in fact.
COHEN. No, but I am just saying. I know. Listen, I am agreeing with you --
BLOOM: They were not stabbed. They were shot.
COHEN: -- I am being reasonable too.
PINSKY: But Brad --
COHEN: No. They said they might have been stabbed as well.
PINSKY: Brad, to put a -- excuse expression of fine point on what you are saying here, Jena and I will have no difficulty getting people to throw
away their knives, get the samurai sword out of the house. People do that all the time. They do not push backwards, "Whoa, whoa, it is my
privilege," and no one takes issue with that.
COHEN: I got it.
PINSKY: And so my question is why do we take issue with this one kind of deadly weapon and not with the others? It is the converse of your
point. It is just very much the converse of your point. Got to go.
Next up, rape charges dropped against a former frat day. He spend one day in jail. The question here is did prosecutors mess up?
And still to come, a desperate father takes his child from the backseat of a sweltering van, puts her in the refrigerator. Back after
this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): A 21-year-old John Enochs, a fraternity member at Indiana University faced two rape charges, but he
ends up serving only one day in jail and he gets a year probation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): Next thing she remembers is being in a room with a guy she did not know. She told investigators she
tried pushing him off of her, telling him no several times, but he continued to have sex with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KITTY LIELL: John did not rape either one of those young ladies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): So while authorities are investigating that, they found another case. This is from September of
2013.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (voice-over): The woman says she was drinking at her sorority house with friends. Later, those same friends
told detectives they she saw the two having sex. The victim reportedly texted Enochs asking, "What happened?" He replied, "You blacked out, so I
left."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIELL: John never should have been charged with rape for either incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Independent of our problems with rape and the rape culture, magically, each one of the cases involved binge alcohol. Just look at the
data, every damn time. People want to reduce this, that is one thing to look at.
And Indiana University student initially charged with raping two women in two separate cases sentenced to one day in jail, one year
probation. The rape charges dismissed. He pleaded to a misdemeanor. How did this happen? Back with Lisa, Bradford, and Beth. Also joining us,
Yodit Tewolde, former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney. Beth, break this one down for us.
KARAS: Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, when I heard what the sentence was and that it was a plea deal, I knew there was problems with the
evidence, all right? Because this is not like what we saw with the Stanford student where there was a trial, a conviction, three felonies, and
the prosecution asked for six years, and the judge gave six months. This is a deal with the prosecution made.
So we heard that the 2015 victim says that, "Yes. She is raped, but she, you know, she picked him out of a lineup and she was in a room with
him. Video shows that. Video also, you know, there is evidence that contradicts some of the proof here. There are absolute proof issues in
these cases.
In 2013, the victim did not remember the incident. So, obviously, the prosecution was going by what the witnesses saw through the window when
they saw him naked oon top of her. So, there is some real issues with the proof, and that is why the prosecution gave a deal. I suspect this battery
charge he pled guilty to, it is not a sex crime. So he is not going to be a registered sex offender either.
PINSKY: Let me get around my panel here. Lisa, you are actually nodding on this one, which surprises me.
BLOOM: Well, listen, I represent rape victims every day. This is the hardest kind of cases to deal with, on the civil or on the criminal side.
I agree with everything Beth says, but I would take it a step further. There is no question that we have massive racial bias in our criminal
justice system.
When it comes from the decision of prosecutors, of who to charge, what plea deals to offer them, what the sentences are given by judges, and
I think this does fall into that category, even agreeing that there were troubles with proof. I think there is no question that he got a very sweet
deal here.
PINSKY: Brad, you agree with that?
COHEN: I mean, I do not think he got a sweet deal. The evidence was not there. I mean, there was contradicting evidence. One girl, I think,
had two other men`s DNA on her or around her.
BLOOM: But that does not mean she was not raped.
COHEN: I mean, there were all kinds of problems with this case.
PINSKY: Is that the 2000 --
COHEN: Nobody said that. Again, let me finish what I am saying. All I am saying is there was problems with evidence everywhere in this
case. There was contradicting statement. There was contradicting evidence. I do not think he got the deal of the century. I think he got a
fair deal.
And, when it comes to racial bias, I agree 100 percent on racial bias, but I also think it is socio-economical. And, when you look at like
a Kobe Bryant case, like other people that have money, when you have money, you can get certain things done.
You hire better lawyers. You hire investigators. You find out this evidence. You are able to get this evidence. It is not just black or
white or any other kind of race, it is the money factor. The money factor is what plays in justice systems today, and that is something that is very
unfair.
PINSKY: Right. Yodit, settle this for me. That is terribly unfair.
YODIT TEWOLDE, ATTORNEY: Here is the thing. I think I can safely assume that everybody on this panel would never support a rapist or vilify
a real victim of rape; however, we do not have a rapist here. We have the court of public opinion, who is labeled this individual as a rapist, but a
court of law has not found him to be as such.
PINSKY: Correct.
TEWOLDE: So, that is the important thing. This is different from the Brock Turner case, because Brock Turner was found guilty of three
felony counts by a jury. This is a plea bargain, and just like Beth said, that tells me as a former prosecutor, there is inherently huge flaws in the
state`s case.
[19:30:05] You have an old case like the last panel has said, two different DNAs of other men on these accusers. That rises to reasonable
doubt. If a state -- if the state tries to take this before a jury, they are risking a not guilty. So, what they do is they tried to have the
defendant on the hook for something, and that is trying to bargain at this point.
BLOOM: But what is the DNA of the other men show? It shows -- or I guess, the assumption that she had sex with somebody else?
COHEN: Reasonable doubt.
TEWOLDE: Reasonable doubt.
BLOOM: No. Let me finish my point. That shows that she had sex with some other men, maybe, or somehow she got their DNA. That does not mean
that this guy did not rape her. We have to get over the idea that women have to be virgins or nuns in order to win a rape case.
PINSKY: What is the reasonable doubt? Explain to us --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Yodit, explain to me what you mean by reasonable doubt.
TEWOLDE: Yes. Reasonable doubt is any other --
PINSKY: No, in this case. In this case, what would the reasonable doubt be?
TEWOLDE: Oh, reasonable doubt is one of the accusers came forward two years after it happened. Her memory is bad. Both of the accusers, memory
was bad. Number two, DNA, like I said, found two other males on the accusers.
PINSKY: But why is that reasonable doubt?
TEWOLDE: Number three, the lead investigator. Hold on.
PINSKY: Why is the extra DNA doubt?
TEWOLDE: I am explaining that!
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TEWOLDE: Why is there doubt? Because the defense can argue that this individual actually consented to the sex. Yes, they had sex, but she
consented to guess what, the video, surveillance or whatever camera phone that was going on at the time proved that they contradicted.
The accuser said they could not have given consent, because there was alcohol at play, right? Well, no, footage shows right before the alleged
rape, that she was actually conscious. So, yes, there is a defense that could be brought before court.
PINSKY: Well, hold on. Hold on. Lisa, I may give you a chance to attack the defense and I will just start by saying, just because she was
awake does not mean she was able to render consent. Alcohol can cause black out and many other distortions of judgment.
BLOOM: I mean, I am just shocked that in 2016 we have the argument that because she consented to sex with somebody else, she must have
consented to sex with a guy that she accuses of rape. Most of us have consensual sex.
COHEN: Nobody is saying that.
BLOOM: But that is what the DNA argument is.
TEWOLDE: Nobody said that, Lisa.
PINSKY: But what is the doubt then.
BLOOD: Let us focus on the DNA argument.
PINSKY: What is the doubt with that --
TEWOLDE: It is just one part.
COHEN: Yes, I will focus on the DNA argument.
PINSKY: OK. Brad, go. Please. What is the doubt?
TEWOLDE: Thank you.
COHEN: I will focus on the DNA argument.
PINSKY: Yes.
COHEN: The issue is two-fold. Number one is she never said she had multiple partners that night. There was no statement that she had multiple
partners. I never heard that. All of a sudden --
BLOOM: It does not mean she had multiple partners that night.
COHEN: Wait one second! We do not know. You do not know where that DNA was found. I presume it was found on her, but she had two different
men`s DNA on her besides visiting the vigil --
BLOOM: And that does not mean it was that night.
PINSKY: Well, again, the point --
COHEN: What?
PINSKY: I think the point you are making is why did she hide that, right?
BLOOM: She did not necessarily hide it.
PINSKY: Why did not she bring that up?
COHEN: Exactly.
BLOOM: Dr. Drew, that is misleading.
PINSKY: No, but I mean that --
COHEN: There is no statement --
PINSKY: That is the doubt that is raised. You would at least ask the question, why did --
TEWOLDE: Dr. Drew. Dr. Drew.
BLOOM: Why does it require every woman to be a virgin or she is not raped? And it is ridiculous.
PINSKY: No. I am with you, Lisa.
TEWOLDE: What happens to the presumption of innocence?
PINSKY: All right.
TEWOLDE: Because a court of public opinion already labels people rapists based of accusations. That is inherently wrong. That is not how
the system works.
PINSKY: We are going to keep this going.
Next, people on social media are comparing this to the Stanford rape case. Is that fair?
And still to come, a baby trapped in a hot car bakes to death. Father charged, why did he wait to call 911? We are back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: A 21-year-old former student at Indiana University accused of rape, but prosecutors agreed to drop those charges against him after he
plead to a misdemeanor battery. He served one day in jail, one year probation. I am back with Lisa, Bradford, Beth and Yodit. In the 2015
case, they found his DNA on the victim, but they could not use it as evidence as his defense attorney explains here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEILLA: Yes. Mr. Enoch`s DNA was found on the young lady, but so were two other men. There were three men. Their DNA was found on the
young lady, not just John Enochs. And in the surveillance video of the fraternity, there are images of the young lady and John going in and out of
a room, but when they leave the room, three minutes later, she is seen embracing another young man at the end of the hall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lisa, I am not quite sure this really creates the doubt that Yodit was talked about, does it for you?
BLOOM: Yes. Listen, I was assume worst case scenario that DNA from another man means you had sex with them. Of course it does not mean that.
In a course of a day, I hug someone. I give someone a kiss on the cheek. I might have their DNA on me, which she did not say what part of the body
we are talking about.
It does not mean that I had sex with them, and even if I did have consensual sex, it does not mean I cannot be raped. So, the whole thing is
ridiculous. You know, guess what, let me just say something about rape victims, because I represent them every day. I spent all weekend working
on two rape cases.
Rape victims do not behave like other victims of crime. They are not perfect people. They might hug someone afterwards. They might do a cart
wheel. They might act strangely. They might act happy. They might act sad. They might not report it. They might recant.
That is what we know. That is what the empirical data is about rape. And, I am sick and tired of all of the excuses for people not prosecuting
rape cases, not taking it seriously, and putting out these myths about rape victims.
PINSKY: But Brad, I hear you groaning.
COHEN: Listen, first of all, to say that it was DNA from a kiss, come on. It is enough already. The fact is that they did not have the evidence
in the case to lump this kid in with other guys that got convicted of rape that got six months.
People love -- in America, people love the headline. And the headline is two --you know, fraternity rape drunk kid gets one day in jail.
That is what the headline is. And, it is not fair to this kid, because I will be honest with you.
[19:40:05] The evidence was not there. It was not only not there, it was contradicting evidence. It was exculpatory evidence. It was not,
like, "OK, there is something not there. Maybe we are missing something." There was actual evidence that proved that he was not guilty.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on.
COHEN: So it is very dangerous to go down this road when you got a fraternity and drunk people.
PINSKY: Well, the fraternity and drunk people are a whole other issue I would love to address.
COHEN: That it is.
PINSKY: I want to dril in on this one a little bit. And Yodit, I still do not -- you have to make it explicit to me why DNA of three men
creates reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt of what? Reasonable doubt that she said no to the third guy? Why is that reasonable doubt?
TEWOLDE: Dr. Drew, why are you confused? I think we all kind of covered the DNA. And I was not saying that the DNA alone would convince a
jury not to convict, but that on top of everything else. You have a lead investigator that hid evidence from the court that was favorable to the
defense. That is a problem!
And to say that prosecutors, what, do not care? Lisa, we just had prosecutors care enough to prosecute Brock Turner and get a conviction.
They could not even get the punishment that they wanted. To say that that this is a situation here that prosecutors did not care because, guess what,
those prosecutors believed those accusers.
Just because they did not take their case to a jury does not mean they did not believe those accuser the. They did not have an airtight case
that they wanted to risk losing and having this case --
BLOOM: So I do not hear any response on the DNA issue.
PINSKY: I do not either. I still do not get it. I will let Lisa. Lisa, explain to me --
TEWOLDE: What?
PINSKY: No. No, Yodit, you seem to understand what you are saying. I am naive. You need --
BLOOM: Yes, actually --
PINSKY: Lisa, hang on. Lisat, what are they saying? They are saying this woman is fill-in-the blank because she had three men`s DNA on her.
Why is that doubt?
BLOOM: I would like to do something that you rarely see me do on this show. I would like to throw the ball to another guest, and that is Beth
Karas, because I know that she is very knowledgeable about DNA.
PINSKY: OK, good.
BLOOM : And what it means to have DNA on a person`s body.
PINSKY: All right. So, Beth, what -- I understand. I need to make this explicit. I am sorry. Just because three men`s DNA was on her does
not mean, she said no to the third guy.
BLOOM: Yes.
PINSKY: Why is that reasonable doubt, Beth?
KARAS: That is right. That is right, but the DNA alone is not the case. They have evidence contrary to what she is saying, that maybe she
did consent. Consent is often a defense in a rape case.
And these are different kinds of cases because usually sex happens with just two people. So it is a he said, she said, and you look for
corroborating evidence to support an accuser who says, "I did not consent" or the opposite.
They just did not have enough proof here. I do believe that the prosecution wanted to believe, probably did believe these accusers. I
think the DNA just is not all they were hanging the hat on. They did not have enough evidence independent of the DNA to show that it was forced.
TEWOLDE: Thank you, Beth.
KARAS: This happens all the time.
TEWOLDE: Thank you, Beth.
KARAS: In my old office, in Manhattan DA`s office, they could not prosecute a lot of rape cases they believed in because they just did not
have the proof.
PINSKY: All right.
KARAS: Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a high burden.
BLOOM: That is true.
PINSKY: All right. All right. We got to leave it there.
Next up, a family says they are heart broken by the death of their baby girl. A father says he forgot about her, another hot car dad. She
was baking in the backseat of his van and died. Back after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Forgotten, they say, by her father, 33-year-old, Michael Thedford.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): Thedford dropped off his two older children at daycare then left his 6-month-old daughter in the van in
front of their house for four hours. Thedford indicated he forgot the child was in the vehicle, went inside the home, and went to sleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Investigators appear to make Thedford reenact what happened with a Mickey Mouse doll.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michael Thedford is charged with manslaughter after leaving his 6-month-old daughter in a hot van for four hours. He attempted
resuscitate her by putting her in the refrigerator.
Is this similar to the hot car dad case in which another father was charged after his child baked to death in the back of his SUV? Back with
Lisa, Bradford, Jena, Beth and Yodit. Beth, can you please fill us in on more of the details on this tragedy?
KARAS: Yes. Now, this father, who is a former high school teacher. He taught chemistry and physics until not that long ago, he planned to
teach college courses in the future. He had dropped off two of his kids at daycare. A 5-year-old and a 3-year-old.
The 6-month-old baby stayed with him because she had a fever the night before, so she was not going to daycare. Her name was Fern. So he
went home, as we just heard, he took a nap. Four hours later, he realized the baby was never taken out of a minivan.
And when he went to get little Fern, the probable cause affidavit says that he found her in the minivan, quote, "Stiff and hot as a brick,"
close quote. The temperatures were in the mid-90s, that day, and his wife was at work while this happened.
PINSKY: It is so sad. And, then those vehicles can be well over 120 degrees. Now, after he found the child, the affidavit says Michael, quote,
placed the child in the refrigerator for an undetermined length of time prior to calling 911. And, Jena, I think people look at that behavior and
go, "What is he doing?" I think he was just desperate and did not know what he was doing?
KRAVITZ: Yes. I agree, Dr. Drew. This is a really unfortunate case of initially what sounds like unintention and then followed by really poor
problem solving in the face of panic.
PINSKY: Yes. Panic. Just, oh, my God, can you imagine?
KRAVITZ: No.
PINSKY: It is just so sad. On the phone I have Fabiola Contreras, the family`s neighbor, who actually watched this horror unfold from across
the street. Fabiola, I appreciate you being here.
FABIOLA CONTRERAS, NEIGHBOR: Hello, thank you for having me.
PINSKY: Can you tell us what you saw?
CONTRERAS: Yes. I saw ambulance and firefighters arriving at the scene. Police officers and detectives as well. They were just going in
inside the house. Apparently, the ambulance was leaving so as the firefighters, and the only
people there were the police officers and the detectives walking around.
[19:50:20] And one of the detectives was videotaping Mr. Thedford for retracing his steps using a Mickey Mouse doll to explain what happened.
And they went inside and before we knew it, he was arrested.
PINSKY: Now, he, this man, Michael, was a substitute teacher at your high school. What was he like, do you know?
CONTRERAS: Yes. He was not talkative at all. He always had his head down. He was a strict sub. He followed directions. On what the teachers
left him.
PINSKY: Fabiola, thank you. I appreciate your point of view and your sharing what you saw with us. Now, this man, this substitute teacher was
charged with manslaughter. Yodit, was he overcharged? Was this just a horrible accident?
TEWOLDE: I definitely think so. I think the state overcharged in this case, because the manslaughter in Texas is when a person recklessly
causes the death of another individual and a person acts recklessly with regards to their conduct when he or she has a disregard or -- I am sorry,
is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial risk.
Now, the state in this case will have to prove that dad was aware that he left his kid in the car and that he disregarded the risks that came
from that conduct. I think that is going to be a very hard case for the state to prove it, especially --
PINSKY: And I am seeing Brad nod as though he agrees. So, I want to switch over to Lisa. Lisa, negligence does not figure into this?
BLOOM: No, not on the criminal side. And I agree based on these facts. I just do not see a crime. This happens a lot by the way.
PINSKY: I know.
BLOOM: And there are studies about when it happens. Just this situation when the parent deviates from his usual routine. I usually take
the kids to day care. In this case, he takes the older kids to daycare, but then he takes the baby, little baby Fern back home again. His routine
is a little bit different. He gets out of the car, he just does not remember, he got a sleeping baby in the back.
PINSKY: I know. Listen, I just feel so grateful. I have triplets. Yes. I was juggling. And I just thank God nothing happened. But
Bradford, do you have children?
COHEN: I have one coming August 11th.
PINSKY: Can you imagine -- can you imagine what this guy`s feeling?
COHEN: Yes.
PINSKY: And on top of that facing manslaughter. Is not just the loss of the child enough?
COHEN: It is truly horrible. They made him retrace his steps right after his child died using a Mickey Mouse doll, it is just unthinkable to
me. To make a point on this, Dr. Drew, there are guys that should be charged with this guy. Guys that leave their kids in the car and goes to
racetrack or the case where the guy left his kid in the car, went inside and watched porno.
This guy seems to be a legit guy. Loves his kids. No problem, no nothing and he legitimately forgot his daughter in the car. It is a
horrible tragedy. He should not be charged. It is an overcharge by the state. It is a knee jerk reaction because some of these cases are coming
out now. This is not the same kind of case that you have seen in the press before where it is reckless, where they are going to the racetrack. There
was case down here where --
PINSKY: I have to interrupt you. Enough cases and they are increasing since January of this year. We are back after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking about the father whose 6-month-old daughter died. She was left inside a van for four hours in 90-degree heat. As of
June 22nd, 16 children have died of heatstroke after being left inside hot cars. This is the double the deaths from this cause in the same period
from last year. Why do we think this is continuing to happen? Anybody have any theory about this? Jena.
KRAVITZ: You know, all I can think is people are so busy. And maybe they just people are so busy and so stressed out that they forget about
things like this, but it is hard because I am a mother and I would never.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, mom but dad doing that thing.
BLOOM: But you cannot say that.
PINSKY: Lisa, go ahead.
BLOOM: Listen. I am a mother. You cannot say I would never do that. We all make mistakes as mothers. I have raised two kids and I have
a foster son. I have not made this particular mistake, thank God, but who amongst us have never made a mistake.
PINSKY: Now, the issue of hot car deaths have been in national sort of conversations since this one case that got attention two years ago and
it land a father Justin Ross Harris indicted on murder charges after his 22-month-old son was left in a park car.
A judge agreed to delay his trial to move it to a different venue because of publicity. That trial is set to begin in September. And Brad,
this is the case, you were referring to with the guy --
COHEN: Right.
PINSKY: He was distracted. He was not distracted because he was busy. He was distracted because he was on internet porn and chat rooms and
all kinds of stuff.
COHEN: Yes. That to me is a different type of case. There is some sort of next level where they are committing either a crime or they are
doing soemthign that they should not be doing, or preoccupied because they have to go to the liquor store.
This is just a different type of case. I feel very bad for this father. And like I said, he went inside to take a nap after he dropped his
other two kids off. He probably thought, you know, he did not even --
PINSKY: He thought he dropped them all off. Beth, any theory as to why things have been increasing?
COHEN: I am sure.
KARAS: I could not hear your question. What?
PINSKY: Any theory as to why these hot car deaths have been on the increase this year?
KARAS: I really do not know but I do like the response that people are just busy and distracted these days. We are just assaulted by so much
information. People are texting while driving.
PINSKY: Maybe it is the phones. Maybe it is the internet. Maybe it is the social media.
KARAS: It is too much.
PINSKY: Yes. It may not be that they were busy, it is just that we are just distracted. Think of what that is doing to our relationships and
our mental health is being reflected here. I agree with you, Beth. Thank you all for watching. Appreciate it, panel. We will see you next time.
Nancy Grace up next.
[20:00:00]
END
